Sail Cloth Definition of "Hydra-Net"

[rers...@netscape.net]

Somehow the discussion of J40 rudders morphed into a discussion of sails, which is already a vast and confusing subject.  Having recently had a main and genoa built by the UK sail loft in Marmaris, Turkey using "Hydra-Net" I thought I should clarify the definition and composition of Hydra-net, which is a combination of Dacron and high strength "Dyneema", which is incorporated in the warp of the fabric.  Originally developed in Germany, Hydra-net has the advantage of the light weight and easily handling of Dacron, while resisting the tendency of Dacron to stretch and lose its shape with use.  After watching my J42's original Norlam suit of sails stain and mildew beneath the surface of the laminate, I jumped at the chance to order a set of Hydra-net sails which would be durable, breathable and cleanable for long distance cruising.  The fabric itself is a major cost component of Hydra-net sails, and UK's "Offshore" reinforced main with two reefs and roller furlable genoa with  foam luff cost a bit over $10K in 20017.

[Ed S]

Sounds like you’ve been happy with the HydraNet.   Yes?

On Sep 29, 2020, at 2:42 PM, 'rers...@netscape.net' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Somehow the discussion of J40 rudders morphed into a discussion of sails, which is already a vast and confusing subject.  Having recently had a main and genoa built by the UK sail loft in Marmaris, Turkey using "Hydra-Net" I thought I should clarify the definition and composition of Hydra-net, which is a combination of Dacron and high strength "Dyneema", which is incorporated in the warp of the fabric.  Originally developed in Germany, Hydra-net has the advantage of the light weight and easily handling of Dacron, while resisting the tendency of Dacron to stretch and lose its shape with use.  After watching my J42's original Norlam suit of sails stain and mildew beneath the surface of the laminate, I jumped at the chance to order a set of Hydra-net sails which would be durable, breathable and cleanable for long distance cruising.  The fabric itself is a major cost component of Hydra-net sails, and UK's "Offshore" reinforced main with two reefs and roller furlable genoa with  foam luff cost a bit over $10K in 20017.

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[rers...@netscape.net]

Yes Ed, we've been happy with the Hydra-net sails (radial cut).  Haven't even had time to fully break  them in yet, as we left Turkey in early 2019 and ended up in Montenegro, where she's been berthed in Coronavirus limbo ever since.  Hoping 2021 will let us replace rod rigging in Italy and set us up for the eventual cruise back State-side before we're too old to do it.

Reed  s/v Cayenne J42 #65.

[Ed S]

Hi Reed,

Do you know at what point in the left you put your reefs? Is your second a very deep one?

I’m debating between two or three reefs, with the second/third being an extremely deep one. I also know that I rarely go to the first reef on my current sail, instead of skipping right to the second, so it may make sense just to have two to keep down weight and cost  

BTW, I received sell quotes, and here in Stateside in 2020, the cost of a radial cut, HydraNet main is now almost $12,000. Granted, that’s at an “in-person” sail loft, not an online service. 

Regards,

Ed

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Ed Sitver

esitver@gmail.com

WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071

Mobile:  +1 303-570-5071

------------------------------------

On Sep 29, 2020, at 16:42, 'rers...@netscape.net' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[rers...@netscape.net]

Hi Ed,

Your query got me back into my photo files to see if I could find a picture of our main sail, which would answer your questions about reef positioning.  No luck for now, but we did opt for two reefs, with the second reef point about halfway up the luff.  Three reefs just seemed too complicated for us.  I did solicit an estimate for a suit of main and genoa from one of the big US lofts, and discovered that the cost would be twice what we would pay for a custom build in Turkey.  Either way the Hydra-net is a German import, and the fabric price is a big part of the cost of the Hydra-net option.  It has been said that the cost differential makes basic dacron sails a reasonable alternative, as two or three suits of Dacron sails might equal the high cost/long life of a single set of Hydra-net.  Also I suspect that the relatively stiff and durable Hydra-net may be less suitable for racing than for cruising, but our sails are still new and stiff, so hard to tell.  Hope this helps.

Reed   s/v Cayenne  J42 #65

[Ed S]

Thanks Reed.  I’m cruising and not racing, so that does help a lot. I’ve been getting quotes for sails with two reefs, but wondering if I should keep that first small reef in the sail, even if I don’t use it frequently. My thought was that I would keep it rigged when selling coastal, but could rig the deep third reef instead in situations where I might face some heavier winds.  

I could probably order sails from Turkey, and even after a nice vacation and shipping to the US, I’d still come out ahead. :-)

Ed

On Oct 7, 2020, at 4:07 PM, 'rers...@netscape.net' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[rers...@netscape.net]

The UK loft in Marmaris, Turkey insisted upon going up the mast and measuring the rig on site before delivering their proposal and price estimate, so, not sure about the "ordering" option.  Having made our sails at UK Marmaris, they must have detailed records of our J42 dimensions though.  Currently the Turkish currency is at historic lows against the US dollar, which could be a factor, but, in any case, Turkish businesses who deal with foreign customers only accept payment in dollars or Euros.

Given the current collapse of the yachting industry, they might be pricing new business very aggressively.  The management at UK Marmaris were, in our experience, fluent English speakers, so it wouldn't hurt to try an establish contact with them.  Having done several major boat projects over the course of four years in Turkey, we found most of our boat related business dealings with the Turks to be dependable and honest, but on-site presence, and exercise of due diligence are to be desired.  It would seem to be worth looking into.

[Edward Sitver]

Hmmm… I was half-joking, but it’s a very interesting option. I like the fact that the loft you used was meticulous about measuring. I’ve dealt with some sailmakers who seem a bit casual about that. No guarantee, but since we’re three hull numbers apart, it’s pretty likely that the measurements would be the same for our boats. 

Not sure Turkey makes sense, but it’s got me thinking in general about whether or not my preference for working with someone in-person is bringing me benefit equal to the significant additional cost (could be as much as $10K). Part of my issue is that I’ve never bought sails before, and I still don’t know what I don’t know about sailmaking, so I’m trying to ensure that I find a sailmaker who will build the “right sail” for my boat and my sailing. I’m probably over thinking it, per usual. 

More thinking to be done here.

-Ed

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Ed Sitver
esi...@gmail.com

WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071
Mobile: +1 303-570-5071
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[rers...@netscape.net]

Even if you order sails from a US loft, there's a good chance that they will fully or partially made in another country,

Reed  

[William Stellin]

We too had a main built in Turkey.  They, (UK Turkey) used a German fabric Dimension Polyant  which at the time was state of the art dacron. The price was way way lower than the same sail by a US UK sailmaker. It was a radial cut with 3 reefs and great for the Atlantic crossing but too heavy for Great Lakes sailing and racing. As it turns out we could have easily gone with a laminated sail and just doused it instead of reefing. We never reefed down to the third reef. Passages in the Med or Caribbean are short so no need for bulletproof sails in my opinion. 

Bill. #6

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 8, 2020, at 8:49 AM, Edward Sitver <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Hmmm… I was half-joking, but it’s a very interesting option. I like the fact that the loft you used was meticulous about measuring. I’ve dealt with some sailmakers who seem a bit casual about that. No guarantee, but since we’re three hull numbers apart, it’s pretty likely that the measurements would be the same for our boats. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/436EB02C-9A20-4CA6-88C4-30D4165AA6DE%40gmail.com.

[Bill Bowers]

Hi Ed,

Grreat meeting you in Rockland!!

Our Doyle Dimension Polyant main is about 6 years old and still gorgeous for cruising the Maritimes.  Chris Howes built it with two deep reefs, the first midway between the lower and midlower batten, and the second midway between the midlower and mid batten.  We love the first reef for winds between 18 and 25 apparent, as it balances the helm better for the Cape Horn vane or Robertson pilot in wind mode.  The second reef is good up to about 35 apparent.  

While we do sail with the trysail bent on, I am planning to add a third reef just below the sail numbers which will be between the mid and uppermid battens.  I am going to rig the #3 clew line through an Antal ring seized to a Dyneema strop circling the boom through the twin preventer padeyes which are about 18” forward of the end of the Hall carbon boom.  The stakpack will need to be modified to add a third foot pocket for the floating bowline and a longer slot in the upper skirt to clear the line going up from the floating Antal ring to the reef clew cringle.  I will add two more sets of blocks at the mast and another clutch and clam cleat to port under the dodger for the 3rd reef clew and tack lines respectively.  

The remaining question is whether I can safely add an exit box or just a slot to the top of the boom a few feet forward of the Antal ring to pass the clew line forward to the mast inside the boom without compromising the boom.

Cheers,

Bill J42#3

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 8, 2020, at 08:04, 'rers...@netscape.net' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[gale...@gmail.com]

Ed,

Understanding the array of sailcloth is a challenge - especially among the suppliers.  Also in addition to reef points, be sure to refine your discussion as to batten cars and slugs (Tides system??), Dutchman/Lazy Jacks systems, batten pattern (full, 2+2) and batten securing/tensioning options (RBS rockets, lacing, batcar screws, etc) . All these have trade-offs and thus leads to the need to find a trustworthy sail maker who can assess your needs, build the best sail for YOU and preferably be on the boat for the first hoist. Quantum did a reasonably good job for me and I know from other local J owners that Doyle provides similar service and quality. Lots of little decisions with mainsails.

Have fun - good winter project.

Galen

J42 #57

[Edward Sitver]

Bill,

Yes… great to meet you and see Converjence “in the flesh”!

Do you recall which DP sailcloth was used? Are those HydraNet (polyester with high modules fibers in the warp), or one fo the other DP products, such as ProRadial (all polyester)?

Interesting ideas on the reefing. I’ve thought about adding running rigging to all three reefs, but decided I will only ever run two at a time, mostly due to how messy it would seem to be to have three clews lines in the boom and extra lines in the cockpit. 

If I do rig three, it would be two-lines for the second and third, and traditional slab for the first. I just added hardware to set up two-line reefing for my third reef, so I can now run two, two-line reefs. 

Ed

------------------------------------
Ed Sitver
esi...@gmail.com

WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071
Mobile: +1 303-570-5071
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[Edward Sitver]

Good points Bill.  I’m looking at “downgrading” my mainsail to a Dimesion Polyant ProRadial fabric (all polyester) rather than HydraNet, but doing a 120% high clewed genoa in HydraNet. Both are  Dimension Polyant products, with the primary difference being that the HydraNet has high modulus yarn as part of the fabric warp. 

Ed

------------------------------------
Ed Sitver
esi...@gmail.com
WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071
Mobile: +1 303-570-5071
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/BLAPR19MB458038F694247B5C0644353ADD0B0%40BLAPR19MB4580.namprd19.prod.outlook.com.

[Edward Sitver]

Hi Reed. 

True about most sails being made over seas. North 3Di are made in Nevada, and the sail maker I’m working with in Falmouth, ME (Hallet) builds their sail from scratch in their loft from whichever material I choose. That feels like an important factor for me, but I might be over valuing it. 

Ed

------------------------------------
Ed Sitver
esi...@gmail.com
WhatsApp:  +1 303-570-5071
Mobile: +1 303-570-5071
------------------------------------

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/6cf977f6-396a-4c51-bc4f-25bf1d9e98c4n%40googlegroups.com.

[Graeme Nichol]

If you’re consider sails take a look at my post on South African sails. The prices are very, very, good in comparison to US quotes and shipping is a few hundred bucks. Remember most of the big brand names have their sails made outside of the US, they just don’t pass on the savings to you! 

Graeme

SV Fin

Sail, Relax, Repeat

       ~~~ _/) ~~~

On Oct 8, 2020, at 08:49, Edward Sitver <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmmm… I was half-joking, but it’s a very interesting option. I like the fact that the loft you used was meticulous about measuring. I’ve dealt with some sailmakers who seem a bit casual about that. No guarantee, but since we’re three hull numbers apart, it’s pretty likely that the measurements would be the same for our boats. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/436EB02C-9A20-4CA6-88C4-30D4165AA6DE%40gmail.com.

[William Stellin]

When we had our main built, I was already in Kemer Turkey so I had no choice. I saved on labor, shipping and cloth. The German cloth is much cheaper to the Turks, than to US lofts. Probably taxes/ duties and shipping account for the difference. The sail was very well made. We’ve gone through 4 different mains. We are on our 5 th now since 1996. The Turkish build was the longest lasting by far. Trouble was it weighed a ton 

Bill#6

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 8, 2020, at 3:21 PM, 'Graeme Nichol' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 If you’re consider sails take a look at my post on South African sails. The prices are very, very, good in comparison to US quotes and shipping is a few hundred bucks. Remember most of the big brand names have their sails made outside of the US, they just don’t pass on the savings to you! 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/7A27025C-25B0-4B91-9AA2-F08369FE3D32%40yahoo.com.

[Tom Keffer]

Weight is important. I find I sail more, motor less, when I'm looking at hoisting a 60 pound sail instead of a 100 pound sail. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/BLAPR19MB4580E180568BE5295ECD0ECCDD0B0%40BLAPR19MB4580.namprd19.prod.outlook.com.

[rers...@netscape.net]

Our experience with the UK sail loft in Marmaris, Turkey three years ago illustrates how sail making has evolved from in-house artisanal to international high tech.  After taking meticulous measurements on the boat, the loft sent detailed info to a central location, where the sail was actually designed, probably by a computer, producing electronic plotting data for each of the radial panels in both the main and genoa.  This data, delivered by internet, was fed directly from UK HQ directly into the Marmaris loft's automated cutting machines, which numbered and cut the Hydra-net radial panels for the sails, assuring minimum waste of this expensive fabric.  The panels were then assembled with sailmakers' thin, double stick tape, and subsequently sewn together with high strength, UV resistant thread.

The sewing machine operators and hand finishers  completed the process, assembling and adding reinforcement to the sails.  Details, like choosing between traditional reef cringles, or low friction rings mounted at reef points on the edge of the leech with webbing loops, were part of the final hand detailing of the sail.  Having had the original, Dutchman furling laminate sails, and a subsequent set of Norlam, crosscut cruising sails, during our 15 years of J42 ownership, culminating with the Hydra-net radials from UK Marmaris, I would agree with Bill Stellin's opinion that, given the unusual size of the J42 main, a light sail is, in most cases, more desirable than a heavy one.   Big ticket purchases, like houses and vehicles, are typically fraught with unknowns, in which case we must adjust expectation to reality.  We have yet to fully experience our new sails, having enjoyed them for only a part of a single season before Covid cut short our Mediterranean idyll, but we're looking forward to the long return passage west to fully assess our "new" sails, which patiently await our return, bagged and stored below decks on our sweet old J42, stored afloat in Montenegro.