Espar or similar diesel heater

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John Plominski

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Jun 3, 2020, 5:28:13 PM6/3/20
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Has anyone installed a forced air diesel heater (Espar or similar) on a J4x?  I am starting to plan the installation for the end of this season and wanted a good starting point for where ducts were run, where to locate supply vents, and the heater unit itself.  I installed a similar system on my previous, smaller boat, but this is a whole new animal and there is no need to reinvent the wheel.  Any tips on a minimally invasive ducting run and related would be appreciated.


Drew
J40 #79

Ed S

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Jun 3, 2020, 7:43:01 PM6/3/20
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I’m looking to purchase an Espar D4L for Ventus, so I’d also be curious to hear more about any existing installs. 

It looks to me like the best routing is with the furnace in the lazarette, having the hot air ductwork running up the port side. I’ll insulate the ductwork as it passes below the fridge, since that already suffers between the oven and the water heater. 

My current plan, working with an Espar training technician, is:

-Outlets in both heads, on slightly smaller ducting from the main branch. 
- Outlets in the salon and in the v-berth, exiting above the mattress from behind the cabinetry in the head. 
- Rather than have an outlet for heat in the quarter berth, I’m going to draw the return air/fresh air intake from there to pull heat into that area.
– I’ll probably also pull in some outside air. I’m considering being able to either shut the outside air or switch between cabin air and outside air. 

I can provide some additional detail about my planning, including furnace sizing, part numbers, and my decision to run the stock nylon fuel hose sleeved in marine hose to bring it up to ABYC standards, rather than copper if anybody is interested, but I’m saving space in this response for the rant below. :-)

My plan is to install the newest model, the M2 D4L (much advanced over the D4 or the D4 plus); however, dealers seem to either not know about this unit, don’t want to sell it (“I’m not ordering any of the new ones until I sell off my existing stock“), or are just too busy to call me back. I’m ready to purchase a system, credit card in hand, but have tried three dealers over the past six weeks, and still sit empty handed. I’ve never worked so hard to try to spend three grand. Boggles the mind. I may wind up ordering a Webasto, even though I feel the Airtronic is the superior unit. Eberspacher/Espar has been extremely helpful. My results with the dealers — all very pleasant on the phone — has been dismal.

-Ed

On Jun 3, 2020, at 5:28 PM, John Plominski <drew.pl...@gmail.com> wrote:


Has anyone installed a forced air diesel heater (Espar or similar) on a J4x?  I am starting to plan the installation for the end of this season and wanted a good starting point for where ducts were run, where to locate supply vents, and the heater unit itself.  I installed a similar system on my previous, smaller boat, but this is a whole new animal and there is no need to reinvent the wheel.  Any tips on a minimally invasive ducting run and related would be appreciated.


Drew
J40 #79

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Bill Bowers

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Jun 3, 2020, 7:59:20 PM6/3/20
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The 4DL Espar on ConverJence is in the sail locker under the port cockpit seat on a shelf midheight outboard. The fresh air inlet is a short 3' muffler on the unit from the sail locker. This forces heated dried air out of the cabin which is critical to obtain the main benefit of drying cabin fabric. Outlets in the sarcophagus, aft head, port settee, forward head and forward cabin vee. The duct runs under the wet gear locker in the aft head, under the fridge, port settee, under the forward head sink and to the foot panel in the fore cabin vee. The system is awesome and dries the boat very well.



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Ed S

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Jun 3, 2020, 8:53:52 PM6/3/20
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Bill,

Does the v-berth heat well with the duct being in the foot panel? My concern was that heat would get trapped in that pocket under the insert, and not get forward toward the bow end of the bed (I sleep head-to-bow). For that reason, I was thinking of putting the outlet above the mattress, rather than a traditional the location for rising hot air.

Ed

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On Jun 3, 2020, at 19:59, Bill Bowers <wfb0...@gmail.com> wrote:



Bill Bowers

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Jun 3, 2020, 9:30:24 PM6/3/20
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Ed,

Toasty in the whole boat.  We do store linens under the vee insert and the warm dry air still very quickly equilibrates the whole fwd cabin. I also have cork pattern foam interlock floor tiles insulating the vee ceilings (side walls) which keep bedding dry from condensation. 

The big thing tho is to not just recirculate and reheat air from the aft cabin or you will not remove moisture. 

Cheers
Bill

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On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Ed S <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:



Barry Dwyer

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Jun 3, 2020, 9:50:14 PM6/3/20
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Bill, 

Ours enters the forward cabin from the head and wraps around to the starboard side and vents under the insert area. It runs over there because the saltwater wash down pump is on the port side where it should exit thus the extra length.

The forward cabin is a little less heated than the rest of the boat, but definitely warm enough. It is a great feature. In cruise last year in August we used it twice. Once on a nasty day in Marblehead and once in Marion. It only takes about 5-10 minutes to heat the boat up. Here in the Chesapeake, it extends our season from the 3rd week in March to Thanksgiving. 

Cheers, 

Barry

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Ed S

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Jun 4, 2020, 2:06:00 AM6/4/20
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Bill,

Good info. Thanks.

I’d like to make sure that I’m understanding the following paragraph: ” The big thing tho is to not just recirculate and reheat air from the aft cabin or you will not remove moisture. ” 

I believe you are saying that because your system pulls the return/fresh air from the cockpit locker, it reduces moisture in the cabin by introducing “outside“ air from a source other than the cabin? That does make sense, especially if the outside air is drier than the cabin.

I’m looking at drawing cabin air out of the whole boat by pulling through the quarter berth. This should also, to some extent, draw warm air into the aft cabin, without an additional run of ductwork to an outlet.  I’m not too fussed about having the quarter berth be as warm as the rest of the boat, but certainly do want the function of keeping it dry.

I’m considering various options for adding outside air to the fresh air return, via a wye into the fresh air intake ducting that would draw from the locker or from outside the boat entirely. It might be either “always on” or available to open in the event that outside air is drier than what’s inside the boat (although heating the already warmed cabin area is more efficient). 

The Airtronic expert I’ve been working with, says the furnace does a pretty good job of drying out the air, regardless of source, before pushing it into the cabin. Drawing a fresh return from the cabin, should therefore help dry the cabin air to some degree. He did say that some installations simply have an open grill between the quarter berth and locker, and pull fresh/return air directly from the locker, while the open grill allows some air to be drawn from the cabin for recirculating. 

Part of my reason for not running a hot air outlet to the quarter berth is to stay within the rating limits that are calculated as a factor of number of outlets, bends in the ductwork, and length of the main branch, but it sounds like you are getting great results from a size 4 Airtronic with an additional outlet over my system design. That is very reassuring to hear.

Not that i’ve spent a bunch of time overthinking this or anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Although I’m intending this system to simply take the edge off in the shoulder seasons, I may run it a bit harder this year. My summer plans included Newfoundland, but I just fractured my foot and won’t be sailing until late July or August. If I can even make Newfoundland this year, I’ll be coming back down through Nova Scotia and Maine in October. Glad to hear the system performs well. 

Ed

On Jun 3, 2020, at 9:50 PM, Barry Dwyer <barry....@gmail.com> wrote:



Bill Bowers

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Jun 4, 2020, 7:09:28 AM6/4/20
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Ed

I spoke to Anderson Noel at the Royal Newfoundland Yacht Club last night.  He reports there is little chance Newfoundland will be open to nonresidents this summer.  The border is locked tight and locals are asked to vacation locally.  We are hoping this may change in ‘21 with an effective vaccine. 

Right now I believe all of Canada is closed, so Nova Scotia is also not an option.  We are planning to quarantine aboard and cruise Maine late July & August.  Lyman Morse offers dockside delivery of provisions. 

Cheers
Bill

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Drew Plominski

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Jun 4, 2020, 8:44:26 AM6/4/20
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Wow thanks for everyone’s input.  This is exactly what I was looking for.  I appreciate the help.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2020, at 7:09 AM, Bill Bowers <wfb0...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ed

Galen Todd

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Jun 4, 2020, 8:48:23 AM6/4/20
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Another detail to consider is where the heater controls are located. On our J42 the control panel is located in the forward cabin, stb side, just above the counter facing towards the bow. The beauty is on a cold morning in Maine, I can control the heat while still warm in the v-berth bunk. Wonderful.
Galen
Tango #57

Ed S

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Jun 4, 2020, 9:48:49 AM6/4/20
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Galen,

Glad to hear I’m not the only one who doesn’t want to get out of bed to click on the heat!

I’ll probably just put my controller in the V-berth, but anyone considering a new install should know that the new EasyStart Pro controller allows you to connect a second controller, among other useful features. A consideration for where to locate the controller is how you will measure cabin temperature for your on/off cycling. It can be measured at the controller or remotely.

-Ed

> On Jun 4, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Galen Todd <gale...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Another detail to consider is where the heater controls are located. On our J42 the control panel is located in the forward cabin, stb side, just above the counter facing towards the bow. The beauty is on a cold morning in Maine, I can control the heat while still warm in the v-berth bunk. Wonderful.
> Galen
> Tango #57
>
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Edward Sitver

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Jun 4, 2020, 3:54:41 PM6/4/20
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Thanks Bill. Disappointing, but takes the sting out of my being laid up with an injury.  Ed
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On Jun 4, 2020, at 7:09 AM, Bill Bowers <wfb0...@gmail.com> wrote:

Steven Novak

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Jun 4, 2020, 5:23:09 PM6/4/20
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I think outlet ducts are an easy one to overthink...  Admittedly a slightly smaller boat, but on my J/37 I've used a Webasto AT55 with a single outlet at the base of the companionway for year round, liveaboard heat in Boston for the past 5 winters, and it's been more than adequate.  As long as doors are open most of the time, the cabins stay warm enough for me.  I'm sure having an outlet forward is great if you're willing to sacrifice the storage space, but I haven't felt the need to make that tradeoff.

Regardless of outlet setups, I'd definitely recommend setting it up to draw in fresh air, and not recirculate cabin air.  The whole "the heater dries out the recirculated cabin air" is the classic bit of marketing pseudo-science.  If you're heating up the boat from cold, the act of raising the temperate lowers the relative humidity, but there is exactly as much water vapor in the air.  So if you're doing anything that adds moisture to the air (cooking, drying wet gear, or even breathing), then the heater recirculating the air doesn't do anything to keep the humidity level from rising as you add more moisture.  you just wind up recirculating warm, moist air.  Whereas continuously drawing in fresh (presumably colder) air, you wind up replacing the warm moist air in the cabin with warmed air from outside, and drying out the inside of the boat just like Bill described.  Even on the coldest winter nights I've had in Boston, the slight loss of efficiency with drawing in outside air has been worth it.

Steve
J/37 "Monomoit"

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Ed S

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Jun 4, 2020, 6:20:56 PM6/4/20
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Good points Steven. 

I definitely plan to draw outside air, I’m just trying to figure out how I structure that. I think I’ll wind up following some recommendations to be able to shut down the outside air part of the intake in the event that it is more humid outside than inside. Think a cold, rainy night. 

Ed

On Jun 4, 2020, at 5:23 PM, Steven Novak <novak.s...@gmail.com> wrote:



John Plominski

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Jun 5, 2020, 12:20:26 PM6/5/20
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Thanks Steve, Ive felt the same way about less outlet vents.  The boat gets very warm using a small space heater in the salon pretty quickly.  Seems like an easy sacrifice to sleep with the doors open when its cold enough to matter and save the long and space consuming ducting runs.  

Good to see you out at the FakeGawi race a few weeks ago.

Drew

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Kc Cuffel

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Jun 7, 2020, 4:28:50 PM6/7/20
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Here's our late addition: We spend many month a year onboard in the Med.  So no freezing weather.  But  we have a Webasto heater, with fresh air intake behind the wheel (nuisance location).  The interior heat vents are in aft head and aft cabin, and fore and aft ends of the starboard settee.  The aft vents are usually nearly closed and the heat from the forward most vent is feeble at best. 

We also run the fans to push the warm dry air around. Cooking produces lots of moisture.  So, in wet weather, I try to minimize propane consumption and steamy cooking.  If not raining, I open the port over the stove, if raining, I open the main hatch and turn on a fan just forward of the galley to push moist air out.

In the forward cabin, we have some camp pads and the cockpit cushions stored next to the hull for good insulation.  On the shelves are mostly stuff bags.  Of course, there's still condensation on the overhead liner and exposed hull surfaces.  Opening the hatch doesn't really help much.  So part of the morning routine is to turn on the fan (10-15min) and wipe down the moisture.  The worst air circulation is the big hanging locker and the forward head.  A quick daily wipe down of the higher surfaces of the forward head and occasional fan use keeps the mildew at bay.  Actually, the far aft end of the quarter berth gets damp too, so need to run that fan as well.

On cold nights and mornings on shore power, we also run a miniature oil filled heater, with some fans to move the air.  The interiors of most lockers have some insulation lining, either reflective bubble wrap or camp pad.  All this helps with heat and cold.  Our hull is dark blue, so gets a big solar boost.

Not ideal, but we get by,  It's a silly boat to live aboard.
Kathi Cuffel
sv Jarana, J-42 #2


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William Stellin

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Jun 7, 2020, 5:12:07 PM6/7/20
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Ditto, but we just used electric heaters.Still got damp which was only a problem under the forward vee berth cushions. We would tip them a bit on their side and run a fan directly on the underside of the cushion. One or two times it was cold enough to have snow on the deck while in Italy. Both the boat and us survived nicely. 
Bill #6

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On Jun 7, 2020, at 4:28 PM, Kc Cuffel <kcu...@gmail.com> wrote:



Kc Cuffel

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Jun 7, 2020, 5:17:34 PM6/7/20
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Oh, yes.  I forgot.  We do the same.  Works well, takes minimal time & effort.
K

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Paul Rogers

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Jun 7, 2020, 11:52:02 PM6/7/20
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In Canty J-42 #38 my Espar is aft in the starboard lazarette. The supply is run under the quarter berth shelf with outlet at the bottom of the closet, forward behind batteries and windless switch, behind water tank to floor outlet in main cabin, forward to outlet on starboard side forward cabin.  Small grills in forward and aft cabins are adjustable.  Leave head doors open for warmer head.
I also have a grill above the aft quarter berth shelf to provide air to the Espar.  The control is in the main cabin by the book case. On Canty the aft port corner is very difficult to access from the sail locker because of the auto pilot. 

The installation has worked well in Northern Europe in May with temperatures below freezing.  If anyone has a solution to the condensation under the forward bunks, I’ like to hear it.

When I purchased Canty in 2003 a Cruisair heat pump was installed.  I took it out the following winter and installed the Espar prior to my transatlantic crossing.  It is in my basement. if anyone is interested, please contact me.  

Paul Rogers

William Stellin

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Jun 8, 2020, 9:44:33 AM6/8/20
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West marine sells a very effective product called Hypervent. It is a plastic loosely woven mat 3/4” thick that promotes air flow between the plywood and the mattress. We’ve used it for years with excellent results. 
Bill #6

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On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:52 PM, Paul Rogers <p...@midcoast.com> wrote:

 In Canty J-42 #38 my Espar is aft in the starboard lazarette. The supply is run under the quarter berth shelf with outlet at the bottom of the closet, forward behind batteries and windless switch, behind water tank to floor outlet in main cabin, forward to outlet on starboard side forward cabin.  Small grills in forward and aft cabins are adjustable.  Leave head doors open for warmer head.

John Plominski

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Jun 8, 2020, 9:48:42 AM6/8/20
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We have the plastic mesh under the v-berth cushions and it works very well to keep air moving under the cushions so they dont get damp.

Drew

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Ed S

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Jun 8, 2020, 10:06:40 AM6/8/20
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Allowing some heat to warm the space below the bed should mitigate the cushions becoming damp, pushing the cold-surface/warm-air condensation to the hull below. I saw that when running the reverse cycle heat at a slip this winter  The unit operating under the v-berth keep that space very warm and dry, and the bottom of mattresses were dry as well. 

I’m not planning to set up my diesel cabin heater to blow air into the space under the bed, but I did just purchased some hypervent, and hope that addresses the issue for the most part.

-Ed 





On Jun 8, 2020, at 9:48 AM, John Plominski <drew.pl...@gmail.com> wrote:



Bernie Coyne

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Jun 8, 2020, 10:23:03 AM6/8/20
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Agree Hypervent works!   We bought ours at Defender and I notice it is on sale right now:

 

https://www.defender.com/search.html?q=hypervent%20condensation%20prevention%20matting

 

Bernie Coyne

Email: bernie...@outlook.com

Cell/text: 781-789-0762

Paul Rogers

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Jun 8, 2020, 11:09:48 AM6/8/20
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Canty is in Denmark and I am not sure of the availability there.  I currently use the product in my life raft locker.  I found a moisture prevention underliner at Sailrite. https://www.sailrite.com/Moisture-Prevention-Underliner-60-x-90?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI947ay7zy6QIVCYbICh2IPQLzEAQYBSABEgLhzvD_BwE  Has anyone tried this product.  It looks lighter and easy to install.

Paul  #38

William Stellin

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Jun 8, 2020, 11:22:50 AM6/8/20
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Sailrite material looks similar, maybe a bit thinner. Two layers might be best. 
Bill #6

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On Jun 8, 2020, at 11:09 AM, Paul Rogers <p...@midcoast.com> wrote:

 Canty is in Denmark and I am not sure of the availability there.  I currently use the product in my life raft locker.  I found a moisture prevention underliner at Sailrite. https://www.sailrite.com/Moisture-Prevention-Underliner-60-x-90?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI947ay7zy6QIVCYbICh2IPQLzEAQYBSABEgLhzvD_BwE  Has anyone tried this product.  It looks lighter and easy to install.

Bernie Coyne

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Jun 8, 2020, 11:33:14 AM6/8/20
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The idea of these underlayments is to get air circulation under the mattress to prevent moisture buildup.  So it is probably good to make sure at least some of the edges of the underlayment have a way for warm air to escape.

Edward Sitver

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Jun 8, 2020, 12:23:20 PM6/8/20
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Good point Bernie.

Has anyone with the Hypervent or similar layer tried wrapping the layer up the side of the mattress to some degree? Wondering if that would add circulation, or at least more area for hot air to escape. 

Ed
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Kc Cuffel

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Jun 8, 2020, 12:54:51 PM6/8/20
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The hydrovent definitely helps, keeps cushions out of contact with the  condensation on the platform. 

Our cushions seem mostly dry along the edges.  The dampness and condensation are mainly in the middle.  Every so often, I put them out in the sun to be really dry. We also have a 2inch thick perforated, latex topper for comfort. The homemade mattress pad zips over it. . 

Kathi 
Jarana J-42 #2


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Sweet Ruca

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Feb 23, 2021, 12:54:47 PM2/23/21
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Bringing up an old thread. Does anyone with a J/46 have heater ducting, if so, is it on port or starboard? 

I am not a fan of the hole saw, so would love some more input before I pull the trigger.

I am am leaning towards running it on the starboard side. I’ve installed the heater in the starboard side aft lazerette. 

Cheers,
Curtis
J/46 “Sweet Ruca”



D. Scott Miller

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Feb 23, 2021, 1:01:41 PM2/23/21
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I have Espar heating on a J/46. Everything’s on the starboard side. If you want more details, let me know.

 

Scott Miller

Resolute

Al Goethe

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Feb 23, 2021, 1:24:26 PM2/23/21
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Mine was factory installed - I think. The heater is just where you mentioned and the ducking is along the starboard side. I have three outlets. Aft cabin below hanging closet, main cabin immediately aft of the water tank and v-berth bottom of hanging closet. 

Sent from my iPhone
Al Goethe

On Feb 23, 2021, at 11:54, Sweet Ruca <rucas...@gmail.com> wrote:



Sweet Ruca

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Feb 23, 2021, 1:29:14 PM2/23/21
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Thanks Al! That was exactly what I was looking for. 

Are you satisfied with the outlet locations? 

-Curtis

Al Goethe

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Feb 23, 2021, 1:51:46 PM2/23/21
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Yes I am. Understand that I live in Houston and the opportunity to use this heater doesn’t come around too often. But the heater works like a charm and gets the cabin pretty toasty when it is needed. 

I also have Air Conditioning - a necessity here - with a reverse cycle heating mode.  Just doesn’t work too well under way......


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Al Goethe

On Feb 23, 2021, at 12:29, Sweet Ruca <rucas...@gmail.com> wrote:



D. Scott Miller

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Feb 23, 2021, 1:54:51 PM2/23/21
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My ducts are in the same places Al described. My boat’s already in the water in mid-coast Maine and the heater’s pretty good at keeping up with the cold weather (10-25 deg. F) we’ve had over the last few days.

Sweet Ruca

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Feb 23, 2021, 3:57:57 PM2/23/21
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Good to know. Is your AC tied into the same ducts? Is it also located in the aft lax? 

I’ve thought about possibly adding it in the future and it never hurts to plan ahead. 

D. Scott Miller

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Feb 23, 2021, 5:47:19 PM2/23/21
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Separate units and ducts on Resolute. Aft A/C unit is immediately aft of the aft bulkhead of aft cabin (so...outboard (to starboard) of the spare fuel tank).  The forward A/C unit is in the V-berth hanging locker. 

On Feb 23, 2021, at 3:58 PM, Sweet Ruca <rucas...@gmail.com> wrote:



John Burnett

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Feb 23, 2021, 8:50:58 PM2/23/21
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Our heating ducts are all on the starboard side except for the forward head.

On Feb 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Sweet Ruca <rucas...@gmail.com> wrote:



Sweet Ruca

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Feb 24, 2021, 11:03:00 AM2/24/21
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Thanks everyone, starboard side it is...let the drilling commence! 

Cheers,
Curtis

Al Goethe

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Feb 24, 2021, 12:16:18 PM2/24/21
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What size are your two A/C units?


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Al Goethe

On Feb 23, 2021, at 16:47, 'D. Scott Miller' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Joseph Ruzzi

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Feb 24, 2021, 4:09:23 PM2/24/21
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Curtis,

I'm sure, like a lot of other J/4X owners, I've been living vicariously by following your cruise on YouTube.   If you're looking for advice on heater ducting, you must be someplace at least chilly.   Where are your guys now?

Joe

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/CAGSa-zN-h-_PKQ1Pc5uT7WTtR6x0ua_z-Ga0ineLc6m16%3DqcBg%40mail.gmail.com.

Sweet Ruca

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Feb 24, 2021, 4:58:56 PM2/24/21
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Hi Joe,

It’s great to hear from you, happy to hear you and other 4Xers are following. We can’t thank everyone in this group enough for their help and knowledge! 

Kate says I can’t tell in case someone doesn’t want a spoiler. 

But what I can say is, for those that want to know, you can find real-time posts on our Facebook and Instagram @rucasailing and the tracker on our website www.sweetruca.com ;-) 

We have had the diesel heater on board and un-installed for over a year. When C19 hit it was shuffled to the back burner. 

The capes are still very much the goal, and we are keeping our fingers crossed for South American countries to open soon. 

Cheers,
Curtis


G. Jan van Heek

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Feb 24, 2021, 6:38:43 PM2/24/21
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Starboard on Sweetbeam, J 46

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On Feb 23, 2021, at 12:54 PM, Sweet Ruca <rucas...@gmail.com> wrote:



D. Scott Miller

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Feb 24, 2021, 6:45:08 PM2/24/21
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They’re Marine Air Systems units. The one in the hanging locker is Model VCP16K. The one in the lazarette area is, I think, the same. But I can’t see the model/serial number plate given the way that one is installed.

 

Here’s a link to the basic manual for the unit. I have more manuals if you want them.

https://j46.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Marine-Air-Systems-Vector-Compact-Operation-Maintenance-Guide.pdf

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