rudder bearings

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Anthony Iacono

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Mar 15, 2022, 4:16:45 PM3/15/22
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advise please:

I have some play in the rudder post. I'm not doing the job myself. The Safe Harbor yard says PYI makes good quality bearings for J Boasts now. Does anybody have experience with this job or PYI bearings? I am a fan of their props.... Bill S I know you’ve posted a lot about rudders over the years my 1999 (not sure of the bearings they used back then?) is ready. Ti J/42 #26


William Stellin

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Mar 15, 2022, 4:52:11 PM3/15/22
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I’d go with PYI and use a JAFA bearing. They are strong, seem to last forever and retain a light feel on the wheel which is good when you are hand steering or using the pilot. We had to do a lot of structural changes to retrofit one and it was expensive, but well worth everything.
Bill#6

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> On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Anthony Iacono <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> advise please:
>
> I have some play in the rudder post. I'm not doing the job myself. The Safe Harbor yard says PYI makes good quality bearings for J Boasts now. Does anybody have experience with this job or PYI bearings? I am a fan of their props.... Bill S I know you’ve posted a lot about rudders over the years my 1999 (not sure of the bearings they used back then?) is ready. Ti J/42 #26
>
>
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Joseph Ruzzi

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Mar 16, 2022, 9:33:28 AM3/16/22
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Here's an article from the J/40 website about experiences with various rudder bearings.   It hasn't been updated in a while, but may be useful in your decision process.


Joe

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 4:52 PM William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I’d go with PYI and use a JAFA bearing. They are strong, seem to last forever and retain a light feel on the wheel which is good when you are hand steering or using the pilot. We had to do a lot of structural changes to retrofit one and it was expensive, but well  worth everything.
Bill#6

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> On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Anthony Iacono <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> advise please:
>
> I have some play in the rudder post. I'm not doing the job myself. The Safe Harbor yard says PYI makes good quality bearings for J Boasts now. Does anybody have experience with this job or PYI bearings? I am a fan of their props.... Bill S I know you’ve posted a lot about rudders over the years my 1999 (not sure of the bearings they used back then?) is ready. Ti J/42 #26
>
>
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William Stellin

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Mar 16, 2022, 10:15:05 AM3/16/22
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The article referred to talks about cutting off the stainless steel sleeve on the rudder post and replacing it.  Ours is a Jaffa bearing and we didn’t have to cut the sleeve off. It was smooth and round so eliminating that step can save a lot of time and money. 
Bill#6

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 9:33 AM, Joseph Ruzzi <jmru...@gmail.com> wrote:



Anthony Iacono

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Mar 16, 2022, 2:13:38 PM3/16/22
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Thank you so much Bill. Your commentary and insight is always so very helpful.

By the way, we have never met but I did come down looking for you and saw your boat as I recall it was in Valencia back in the mid 2000. 

from the article it looks like PYI is importing the Jaffa parts and that is part of the package they are selling?

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 10:15 AM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 The article referred to talks about cutting off the stainless steel sleeve on the rudder post and replacing it.  Ours is a Jaffa bearing and we didn’t have to cut the sleeve off. It was smooth and round so eliminating that step can save a lot of time and money. 

William Stellin

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Mar 16, 2022, 2:57:35 PM3/16/22
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I suppose they import the bearing. I had it done in Barcelona so it was a special order but still within the EU. Who is going to do the work. It’s compicated and not a simple exchange. If you have a choice might want more than one quote. Also ask PYI who they recommend, preferably a yard that buys a lot of Jafa bearings from PYI. Good luck
Bill #6

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 2:13 PM, Anthony Iacono <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:



William Stellin

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Mar 16, 2022, 3:11:38 PM3/16/22
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It’s too bad we missed you in Spain. It sure would be nice if we could all get together for a weekend somewhere. Not by boat but maybe during one of the US Boat shows around the country. Annapolis comes to mind since J Boats are always there. Maybe we could talk them into hosting a cocktail party or something. 
Cheers
Bill#6

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 2:13 PM, Anthony Iacono <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:



Anthony Iacono

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Mar 16, 2022, 3:12:19 PM3/16/22
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thanks Bill a safe horbor marina has the boat now

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 2:57 PM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 I suppose they import the bearing. I had it done in Barcelona so it was a special order but still within the EU. Who is going to do the work. It’s compicated and not a simple exchange. If you have a choice might want more than one quote. Also ask PYI who they recommend, preferably a yard that buys a lot of Jafa bearings from PYI. Good luck

Anthony Iacono

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Mar 16, 2022, 3:13:17 PM3/16/22
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I live in Newport and Js are certainly here

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 3:11 PM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 It’s too bad we missed you in Spain. It sure would be nice if we could all get together for a weekend somewhere. Not by boat but maybe during one of the US Boat shows around the country. Annapolis comes to mind since J Boats are always there. Maybe we could talk them into hosting a cocktail party or something. 

Ed S

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Mar 16, 2022, 6:42:18 PM3/16/22
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Hi Tony, 

I replaced my upper bearing myself with a Jefa from PYI this summer, hoping for a drop-in replacement. It was not to be. I needed a custom machined inner sleeve. PYI provided great support. Jefa had my bearing to me in about two weeks, so plan accordingly. The new bearing is smooth and appears to be very well put together. I'm happy with the Jefa so far. 

Additional heads up... it turned into quite a fiddly project.  

1.The custom bearing was required because the stainless sleeve on my rudder post was out of tolerance by a fraction of a fraction of an inch for the stock size inner bearing sleeve; there is zero tolerance for the post to be under sized, and very tight tolerance for over size. I needed to get extremely precise measurements, due to the tight tolerance requirements, and that was a bit nerve wracking. I considered removing the sleeve and replacing it with one machined to the proper outer diameter, but there were challenges with that, and I opted to have the bearing machined. 

2. Additionally, I had to select an outer bearing sleeve with a smaller flange (of two options), because I did not have enough room within the rudder post well to allow for rudder alignment otherwise. 

3. I also had to rebuild part of the "shelf" in the rudder well, because the previous installation -- probably factory -- had bolts so close to the edge of the shelf on one side, that a few had broken through the inner circumference. My old bearing was frozen solid, so there was increased friction and probably a bit of torque off the center of rotation, and that may have been too much for the shelf to bear. The epoxy rebuild would have been necessary, even if the existing shelf wasn't damaged, in order to create enough shelf area to fully support the bearing flange and fasteners once the rudder was aligned. The bearing I took out was almost certainly a Harken, so the bolt pattern and sizing was different from the Jefa. 

Before the yard orders any parts, I'd make sure they're on top of the ruder post tolerances and also the rudder alignment to ensure there's sufficient shelf width to bolt on the new bearing. It was not a project I'd want a do over on. 

I have some photos of the shelf, and the part numbers for the outer sleeve I selected, if that would be helpful. I could also dig up the emails with PYI to supply tolerances and more detail around the job. 

-Ed



Bill Bowers

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Mar 16, 2022, 6:49:36 PM3/16/22
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Well done Ed!!

Good on ya

Bill #3

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 6:42 PM, Ed S <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Tony, 

Anthony Iacono

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Mar 16, 2022, 10:25:27 PM3/16/22
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Hi Ed,

Thank you for that detailed and review of the job.

 i had the upper bearing replaced about 12 years ago with something machined by a friend. Overtime some space opened up at the top and you can see movement and hear a thumping sound at the post through the inspection port. 

I remembered reading years ago about Bill’s replacement of the lower bearing and so I assume at this point both may need to be replaced.


Sounds like it could become complex job. I will be in touch with the yard tomorrow addressing the issues  you have brought to my attention.

I’d be curious to see pictures and part numbers if it were not too much trouble.

Thanks very much for your insight and sharing your  experience with the job, much appreciated. tony

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 6:42 PM, Ed S <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Tony, 

Ed S

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Mar 16, 2022, 10:50:42 PM3/16/22
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Looks like I didn’t take pictures other than the three attached: before I cleaned up my not so pretty epoxy work, the installed new bearing, and a shot of the part number. 

I had a thump and movement like you describe, and found the upper bearing loose. I tightened the fasteners, not realizing the bearing was frozen. That quieted things down until I had the opportunity for a closer inspection, which revealed that things where coming apart. 

On the topic of PYI props, my brand new MaxProp “sings” at certain RPMs, and it’s annoying. Did you ever experience that with yours?  I may try to have someone re-pitch it. 

Ed





 
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Mobile: +1 303-570-5071
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William Stellin

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Mar 17, 2022, 7:18:31 AM3/17/22
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Jaywalkers upper rudder bearing is still the original Harken and going strong. No need to replace it and it’s 26 years old. 
Bill#6

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On Mar 16, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Ed S <esi...@gmail.com> wrote:



Jay PA

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Mar 17, 2022, 7:43:50 PM3/17/22
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This winter I had my original Tides upper bearing machined and am ready to install a new custom Jeffa lower bearing (PYI Item #06-4S1-72) and sleeve (PYI Item #06-SLE-172SS).  "Cirrus" is a 2001 J/42 hull #47.  I am doing all of the work by myself, with excellent consultants including:
-Phil at PYI, is terrific, extremely knowledgable, and has coached numerous J/42 owners through the process.  
-Jim D., formerly of TPI and now at Schuster Bearing, is very familiar with the various J/42 rudder bearing designs and was extremely helpful. 
-Tom of Tides Marine knows all about my original bearings and how to recondition them.  They are no longer available.
Contact me if you want to gory details or the even gorier pricing.

Both of Cirrus' original Tides self-aligning sleeve bearings "swelled" over the years.  In November cold, the plastic balls shrank around the post sleeves, making it very difficult to turn the rudder.  The upper bearing was otherwise in excellent condition as was the stainless steel sleeve.  Wear marks on the outside of the ball indicate that the ball was rotating within the bearing.  (It should only articulate a small amount due to shaft flex.)  Clearly the upper ball was grabbing onto the s.s. shaft sleeve.  A machinist friend removed a total of 0.020" from the ID of the upper ball on a lathe, after several iterations and tests at various temperatures.

Cirrus' original Tides self-aligning sleeve lower bearing was also grabbing the lower bearing sleeve.  That sleeve was made of G10, which is softer than s.s..  Removing 0.025" from the ID of the lower ball did the trick.  But after many conversations, and recalling the feel of the Jeffa bearing on my last J Boat, I decided to bite the bullet and replace it with the Jeffa self-aligning roller bearing matched to a new s.s. sleeve that slides over the G10 sleeve.  I am told that the lower bearing carries at least 2/3rds of the load of the combined bearings, so will hopefully yield the bigger improvement.

Although the original owner repositioned the upper bearing as far forward as possible within the deck well, it is still not co-axial with the axis of the FRP rudder tube (that carries the lower bearing).  For that reason, the new lower bearings must also be self-aligning.  That repositioning job was poorly done, so I reinforced the underside of the deck well with a G10 plate.

I replaced the two old draggy lip seals around the lower bearing with a PYI gator fastened between the rudder tube and the rudder shaft.

To reduce drag, I also added a "washer with ball track 102mm" (PYI item #06-WAS-BA102) between the upper bearing and the pin that carries the vertical weight of the rudder.

I'm hoping the helm feel improves during all seasons!
Jay
Cirrus #47

Anthony M Iacono

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Mar 17, 2022, 8:03:36 PM3/17/22
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Thank you Jay, that is impresive.

PYI is very helpful I spoke t Phil today and learned the yard had been in contact him and he was working on precise measurements. My steering is smooth no issues but there is a thump and the movement of the rudder post concerns me. This information will be useful when talking to the yard manager. Thank you.. Ti 

 

Ed S

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Mar 17, 2022, 8:42:59 PM3/17/22
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Great info Jay. I need to make sure I didn’t set up my lower bearing to get stressed as you’ve described. 

Was the forward positioning of the upper bearing incorrect, or was it the proper positioning to align the rudder, but they did not consider the required adjustment for the lower bearing? I feel like I got the rudder alignment fore and aft correct, based on measurements and the set up as described by Alan Johnstone.l, but now I’m s bit nervous about my lower bearing. There’s been a tiny bit of slop in that lower since before I did the upper, so I’m going to need to do the lower in the not to distant future, so I’ll need to get more detail from you at some point for sure. I probably should have bit the bullet when I was on the hard this summer, as my boat is rarely out of the water. 

I wish I’d discovered that roller/washer for between the pin and the upper bearing flange; I just have a Teflon ring. Thepart you used sounds like a much better solution, and I’ll have to add that at some point.

Regards,
Ed

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Ed Sitver
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Mobile: +1 303-570-5071

On Mar 17, 2022, at 20:03, Anthony M Iacono <to...@shanomet.com> wrote:



rers...@netscape.net

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Mar 18, 2022, 8:27:52 AM3/18/22
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RE:  Rudder Bearing Replacements:
Not sure if this is germane to this topic, but rudder bearing cleaning may delay or prevent the need for replacement.  On J42 #65 the rudder shaft and lower bearing is surrounded by a "well" which traps dust and debris on top of the shaft/bearing joint.  It's a narrow, difficult to access location, but I've found that reducing a standard vacuum cleaner hose with a piece of hose allows extraction of potentially abrasive matter from the bottom of the rudder shaft "well".  Rinsing the lower bearing with fresh water at frequent intervals will flush out the dried salt that accumulates inside the bearing.  Warm soapy water is even better.  The upper bearing should be kept clean, and an occasional shot of silicone lubricant seems to help.
Reed Erskine   s/v Cayenne  J42 #65

Jay PA

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Mar 18, 2022, 9:48:56 AM3/18/22
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Hi Ed.
I presume both your upper and lower bearings are self-aligning.  Therefore, when the shaft is inserted they will point at each other perfectly, regardless of whether or not the axis of the rudder tube is centered with the upper bearing.  (It isnt.)   The beauty of the self-aligning bearings is (1) compensation for shaft flex, and (2) ease of manufacture.  If it's not self aligning, then the two bearings must be coaxial to avoid premature wear.  (Non-self aligning bearings are typically installed in a common tube, and then the middle of the tube is cut away.)

I built a simple jig out of PVC tubes to see where the axis of the rudder tube hit my deck well.   I was initially shocked to see how far off it was.  (I can't figure out how to include a pic in this message.)  It took some Phil and Jim hand-holding to talk me off the ledge.  I did NOT want to rebuild the rudder tube and all the associated structure and autopilot platform, etc.   It's pretty clear that the rudder tube was built onto the hull without any careful alignment  with the deck well --because it didn't need to be.

Before I dropped the rudder, I checked that the blade is lined up with the keel.  Measurements from the blade tip (and the top center of the rudder post) to the toerails confirmed that within 1/16".  So the lateral (athwartships) position of the upper bearing is fine.  I don't know what the fore/aft rudder post angle should be, or if matters much.  But I see that they originally moved Cirrus' upper bearing as far forward in the deck well as possible. The PVC jig shows that according to the axis of the rudder tube (not critical), the upper bearing wanted to move 0.5" farther forward --a mere one degree angle offset that would be compensated by 0.5 degree pitch of each of the two balls.  No issue.

I was told by multiple experts that a good or bad installation depends on whether the upper and lower bearing sleeves are coaxial to a very high accuracy.  If not, the self-aligning balls will articulate with a normal change in rudder angle, shortening the life of the bearing.  To check mine, I built a simple tool, a laser pointer mounted to a 8" vee stick that I taped along the outside of the lower bearing sleeve at various angles, creating a circle of dots on a large sheet of cardboard that was concentric to the center of the top of the rudder post.  Too much detail, I know, but multiple experiments convinced me that my upper and lower sleeves are coaxial to within a measurement accuracy of 0.2 degrees.  For this reason, and to avoid having (the boatyard) to make a very fancy installation jig, I opted to leave the G10 sleeve in place and to use a custom PYI/Jeffa s.s. $leeve that slid over it.  I'm installing it with a few bits of 0.012" plastic shims (ya gotta luv McMaster Carr) to prevent a possible max 0.3 degree tilt error if the epoxy filler isn't uniform.

There will be some tricky business around getting the ball bearing washer to ride on the top surface of the self-aligning ball of the upper bearing (not on the flange or the gap between them).  It has a larger OD than the original teflon washer.  Excessive thickness might raise the blade too close to the hull...  More puzzles to solve.  You can tell is was a cold boring winter, good for a fun project.

Jay
Cirrus J/42 #47
On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:42:59 PM UTC-4 esi...@gmail.com wrote:

Ed S

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Mar 19, 2022, 9:00:40 AM3/19/22
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Jay, 

Great ideas for the laser alignment and PVC jig; wish I'd thought of all that. 

I was obsessive about aligning the rudder, and made multiple measurements, multiple times to reference points I'd set up at the toe rail and transom (designed to overcome any asymmetry in the build), so I feel like I got pretty darn close on the alignment. That eases my mind about coaxial alignment. A visual check of the lower bearing showed it to be in a fairly neutral position. The helm feels great underway.  I'm sure I'm fine, but I live in a constant state of paranoia about what I don't know about what I don't know when it comes to the boat. :-)

A fun note on rudder alignment: In speaking with Alan about defining a process for alignment, he thought he recalled the builders using a stack of popsicles between the boat bottom and top of the rudder, just fore and aft of the rudder post to ensure fore/aft alignment. Sometimes low-tech is all it takes, I suppose. 

Ed

Ed S

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Feb 27, 2023, 1:20:24 PM2/27/23
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Anthony,

I'm wondering how your rudder bearing project went. Did you replace the lower bearing?  I'm about to replace the lower bearing, and have some questions for you, if you've had this project done.

1. Did you identify the manufacturer of the original bearing (Tides or Harken)?
2. If it was a Tides, was fiberglass work required? I'm now fairly certain that I have the Tides.
3. Any pictures appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed
#68

Anthony Iacono

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Feb 27, 2023, 4:02:22 PM2/27/23
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Hi Ed,

I am not at home, nor near the boat. So I’ll share what I can now, and will provide more later if needed. 

I did replace the lower bearing. with a Jaffa bearing purchased through PYI in Washington State. They are wonderful to deal with. The original bearing was a Harken I’m 99% sure.

The yard did the installation. It was tricky and they had to make some adjustments. The original bearing sent from PYI was not made to the measurements the yard had provided so they had to make a second bearing, which came in from Sweden. That whole process took some time. Once the proper size was obtained, the install seemed fairly straight forward, they did not do glass work. 

ThIt was tricky and they had to make some adjustments but they did not do glass work. 



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Anthony Iacono

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Feb 27, 2023, 4:06:18 PM2/27/23
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Ed sorry -a call came in and my finger hit send by accident. I guess the last point I would make is that I had some work to do afterwards because everything needed to be reattached and I ended up doing some of that myself. Ti

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