J 40 pointing. Tacking angles

[Wayne Cassady]

We own a J40 and recently bought a new main and 140% genny made of Dimension Polyant. Sails look good to us. We have raced J22s, J70s and other boats over several years so are familiar with good trim on sails. I know polars provide a lot of info regarding pointing and tacking angles but I was hoping for some expert anecdotal information about the tacking angles to expect in 5 to 15 knot ranges, car settings and traveler settings. Our boat is the former Pipe Dream and I seem to recall a conversation with Dr. Piper about the traveler setting for pointing but no details of it. We recently raced in a distance race and did ok but just did not seem to point like we used to. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

[Milton Calder]

Check w your sailmaker they should be able to provide you w the polars for your sail plan . 

Milt and Alicia Calder J-40 “SMITTEN”

On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 1:23 PM Wayne Cassady <wayne.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

We own a J40 and recently bought a new main and 140% genny made of Dimension Polyant. Sails look good to us. We have raced J22s, J70s and other boats over several years so are familiar with good trim on sails. I know polars provide a lot of info regarding pointing and tacking angles but I was hoping for some expert anecdotal information about the tacking angles to expect in 5 to 15 knot ranges, car settings and traveler settings. Our boat is the former Pipe Dream and I seem to recall a conversation with Dr. Piper about the traveler setting for pointing but no details of it. We recently raced in a distance race and did ok but just did not seem to point like we used to. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

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[Al Goethe]

I got a set of polars for my J/46 from Alan Johnstone. Not 100% but quite good!

Sent from my iPhone

Al Goethe

On Oct 16, 2022, at 17:51, Milton Calder <milt....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Wayne Cassady]

Thanks Al. I do have a few sets of polars from other J40s that people have posted. I will plan to do some more trials to see where we stand compared to those.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 16, 2022, at 6:39 PM, Al Goethe <ankg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I got a set of polars for my J/46 from Alan Johnstone. Not 100% but quite good!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/F9DAE976-4868-449E-AEC8-C5788F418CD6%40gmail.com.

[Wayne Cassady]

Thanks Milt. Will do. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 16, 2022, at 10:19 PM, Wayne Cassady <wayne.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Al. I do have a few sets of polars from other J40s that people have posted. I will plan to do some more trials to see where we stand compared to those.

[S/V Sweet Ruca]

Your sailmaker (or sail designer), should be able to discuss with you the designed mast bend, positions of cars, sheet angles, and optimal wind angles for the sail, etc. and give you some targets to start with.

Past that it is really up to the trimmers and helmsman to work together to get the boat to target speeds. Then document your speeds, angles, and settings. This will build into your own polars, sail charts, and on deck reference points for each condition which works with your sails.

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[Wayne Cassady]

Thanks for that, all good advice that I will take up with him.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 16, 2022, at 10:46 PM, S/V Sweet Ruca <rucas...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Sam Foster]

If you could reshare those J/40 polars it would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thank you,

 

Sam

J/40 Cahoots

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[Fred deNapoli]

Good Morning!

Getting polars could be useful, esp. in distance races when you don’t have other boats around you to measure pace and height.  However, I’d caution too much dependence upon them.  Lots of variables will throw them off the mark, including a 140% vs. a 150%, a 140% all purpose vs. a 140% heavy #1 or light #1, sea state (huge!), bottom, keel fairing, displacement (actual….stripped or loaded with cruising gear and tankage), quality of instrument calibration among other variables. 

When the J/40 hit the market I was sales manager at Cooper Yachts, the J agency in Marblehead.  She was one of the last “Series I” boats along the line of the J/30….quite wide at the water line yielding massive sail carrying stability in exchange for wetted surface.  As such Rod frequently demonstrated just how effective caring the #1 well beyond the upper limits you’d expect in other designs with narrower waterline footprints.  We found this to be true in nearly all of the contemporaneous J/Boats in this range….J/30, J/36, J/40, J/44 and now including derivatives like the J/42 and J/46.  In contrast the J/37 was a “Series II” boat, much narrower.

Experimenting in sail selection like that may well throw polars off.  If I were coaching the team I’d recommend some crew training on how to effectively sail with the 140 at the top of it’s range, vs. say a blade.

Having said that, three weeks ago we sailed in the Manchester Fall Series in 14-17 knots in our J/42, flat water, with a relatively small crew.  We had our blade on the headstay RF so we just kept it and we were fine.  The boat was so much more maneuverable with the blade that we could take advantage of shifts with minimal loss of pace. The J/130 in our class struggled with their 150%, giving up 2-3 boat lengths each tack allowing us to beat them boat for boat in the first race and corrected the 2nd.  Polars are not going to tell you much about this variable is my point.

Congrats on the new boat!  Have fun, always Goal #1!

Fred deNapoli

finezza veloce

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[Wayne Cassady]

Will do. I am traveling this week but will scan and post this weekend.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 17, 2022, at 9:52 AM, Fred deNapoli <phred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good Morning!

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[Wayne Cassady]

Thanks for those insights Fred. That is the kind of information I am looking for. We have had our J40 several years now but focused on racing other boats and just race the 40 occasionally. We just got new sails and did choose a 140 for greater ease of tacking (usually just my wife and I) and carrying into higher wind range. We also have an older light Doyle 150 that we carry up to about 10 knots but it is a lot to handle. I will start to put together some numbers for both sails next season.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 17, 2022, at 10:56 AM, Wayne Cassady <wayne.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

Will do. I am traveling this week but will scan and post this weekend.

[Jim Bordeaux]

This discussion raises an issue I have thought about but not pursued. We have raced almost exclusively with a North Marathon 155 Genoa on a furler ( except battened blade in really heavy air). The angle of attack of that sail, defined by a chord line from tack to clew, is quite narrow, as the clew can be well inboard aft of the shrouds. However, for smaller headsails, say a 135, wouldn’t the shrouds prevent the clew from being sheeted to the same angle of attack, and therefore limit pointing ability? With a blade, the clew would be sheeted to a car on the separate short track forward, so could be optimum angle for pointing. Would interested in others’ experience racing with number 2 headsails.

Jim Bordeaux 

J40 #54 Solstice 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 17, 2022, at 11:20 AM, Wayne Cassady <wayne.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for those insights Fred. That is the kind of information I am looking for. We have had our J40 several years now but focused on racing other boats and just race the 40 occasionally. We just got new sails and did choose a 140 for greater ease of tacking (usually just my wife and I) and carrying into higher wind range. We also have an older light Doyle 150 that we carry up to about 10 knots but it is a lot to handle. I will start to put together some numbers for both sails next season.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/5C4BDDEA-A242-4190-9DA3-607F0DC8DFF9%40gmail.com.

[Sam Foster]

Thank you Fred and Wayne!

 

Jim, That’s interesting point you raise and for us on Cahoots, right on topic. We only have one suit of sails, Doyle Hydranet 135 jib and a Stackpack main. All-in-all we’ve been very happy with them. However, like you I’ve raced a lot, on other boats, and think the shape is good (and has held up well for five seasons) but we just can’t seem to point or sheet in as we think we should and we’re constantly frustrated with the immobile jib lead cars when under load. This all has come to light as we’ve dabbled in some Wednesday night racing and struggle in the sub 10-12kts wind days in particular. We likely would not have noticed or cared much otherwise. Without other sails to compare we’ve just had to “play around” with trim and comparing ourselves with other PHRF boats in “B” class much as Fred describes. Through our tinkering we have also come to the conclusion that we can’t sheet the 135 in far enough with current car positioning. Also as you note the shrouds and mid spreader pose some additional “limits”  to how far we could sheet the 135 in but early experimentation shows we still do better when sheeted in very tight to the shrouds. Tighter than I would have previously allowed.  So, I’m in the midst of installing a barber-hauler system which will allow us to adjust both effective deck purchase point (virtual car position so to speak) under load which should allow more adjustability both upwind where we can get the sail further inboard and adjust the leach and of course downwind sheet angle too.

 

Lastly, we’re not a hard core program or crew and don’t’ want to obvious solution of multiple sails, changes etc..but would like to be more “in the hunt” with respect to both pointing and light wind performance.  We’re tinkering with a bigger jib but have worried about an apparent catch 22 when the wind is up. Much over 15kts and we feel over-powered (Rob Johnstone has been quoted as saying of the J4X to keep the heal around 15 degrees) and it would be interesting to hear more on your experience with the 155 Jim.

 

I hope that makes some sense.. and I would welcome any and all insights as this is very much a work in progress for us.

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[John Plominski]

I should have mentioned- if you go to the ORR certificate management page that is run through regattaman.com you can order the latest VPP polars for your boat as part of the "performance package".

https://www.regattaman.com/certificate_page.php

Attached is the raw polar file data I got from my measured ORR cert this spring, for reference- J40 #79, standard keel with biggest headsail being an all purpose #1 on a furler and bow tacked 120sqm all purpose A2.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vvpQj1RvI7Xv-9pvsXMXWZaSFvNZXbXQ/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=113161685149105923488&rtpof=true&sd=true

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[John Plominski]

Sam- we race with an all purpose 150% genoa on the furler.  We will cruise and roller furl at will to adjust power for comfort.  Racing I tend to not roller furl at all when we're getting over powered, but I suspect if I took even 2 turns on the furler/a few inches of genoa foot away we'd still have decent sail shape and be a little less overloaded.  If its going to be windy and I know we're going to be on the breeze we will put up a #3 blade wit vertical battens that can also be furled, but I am not even considering the blade unless we're talking about a consistent 15.  With a full crew we can max out sail controls and backstay and stay fast in 12-15 with full sail if we have active main trim.  The boat does sail exceptionally well in the #3 and full main mode though, especially on the breeze.

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[William Stellin]

We sail with a north 3Di main and a quantum 135% laminated genoa. 

Our pointing really improved with the new North main. We used to race with a 155% genoa but it was less effective than our present 135%. In higher winds the 155% sheeted fully in, would create a large bubble in the main at the spreaders and higher.

Rod gave me the same advice years ago, keep the ends light and the heel low. The main is hugely important for speed, heel and pointing. I feel the best designed main will overcome a lot of genoa shortcomings. I sold the 155% some time ago because the 135 is doing such a good job and is effective over a wider wind range. 

Bill #6

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[Jim Bordeaux]

Sam:

We don’t reef the Genoa when going to windward (racing); we lose too much shape/pointing. In normal southern Bay breeze (10 or less) we point with all but the raciest boats, although we make a little more leeway due to winged keel. When the breeze gets up, we will reef or luff the main if necessary..

We barberhaul the Genoa clew when jib reaching.

Jim #54

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:01 PM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[Robert Kowalski]

Food for thought for yous guys thinking of a new number 2 or why yours is crappy...



Flat is fast.

That’s what the sailmakers say but not necessarily true, power and lift are two separate things you need to find a balance of the two. To achieve lift you want it taller and narrow, power more area.

Modern sailmakers tend to forget that and sometimes totally ignore the physicality of your boat and when shortening the j of a sail use the same over all drafts, hence now you have a sail that’s open at the top and binding on the shrouds at the foot.

How do you measure a 135 to get the most you can on your boat?

What you do is take three lines connect one to your halyard measure your luff mark the line at that length now measure your foot take the second line and mark that and connect that line to the tack point on your rig. Tie the ends of the two and your jib sheet at that point set your car to your max power setting and trim. When you do this the two lines are gonna bend on the shrouds that’s okay that’s how you’re gonna establish your draft and hollow.

Now take the third line attach it to the tack point stretch it to the clew point bringing it in between the shrouds to the imaginary clew, then measure the greatest distance between the two. Divide by the length of the depth (d/l= percentage of depth draft at your j) and the best you’ll get for your boat.

On this imaginary sail you have up, that leech is probably hitting the shroud at some point that’s your hollow point. You can stand there looking up and say hmm maybe 3 inches but if your annal like I, you take that third line attach it to the head with the other line bring it down to the foot of the imaginary sail sighting up move the line toward the bow until it is no longer touching the shroud and measure the distance from the imaginary clew to where the line intersects the foot and that’s the hollow depth of the sail you want.

I know your all saying NO! I don’t want hollow I want roach and here’s my argument, we’re looking for lift and power, and remember long and narrow gives you lift and area gives you power. If to take that draft percentage on the bottom and progressively reduce it up and narrow the sail at the midsection you are actually rising the cl (lift coefficient) and lowering the heel force on the boat by having a deeper draft closer to the deck.

And that’s how you get the best number 2 for your boat and if that aint fast enough buy a faster boat.

Just telling you how I do it, not telling you how…

Well, Just in Case, and Last Resort are giving the stink eye, time to feed the cats!

Bob

Sailing a course less traveled
Delightfully typed on a full keyboard on a mac

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[Graeme Nichol]

Great discussion…

Our assumption is that the power in the J40 is derived from the genoa and the main is secondary. It was opposite on the J30 with a fractional rig. 

Our new genoa and main are both laminates. 

We started out with a 135 Dacron genoa which came with the boat. The Dacron main was blown out and I bought a slightly new one from a fellow J40 owner. The boat could never sail close to her 90 PHRF (I’m not sure we would ever be able to!). 

A new laminate 155 genoa made all the difference. We later added a laminate main. 

Our Fin has a 150 genoa on a roller furler. Our genoa track has a continuous line car adjustment system based on the Harken model. We can create a decent shape in the sail. We have furled the sail in winds over 25 mph and have not heeled too badly and the sail shape has not been horrible!

We did buy a new main after really sailing well with an older blown out main. We spent quite a lot of time with the sailmaker trying to figure out decent dimensions for the sail based on the previous mainsails we had used. We then found that, with the new main, the boat felt as if we had an anchor set! So we were not impressed. We began to  realize that the new sail had a very small power band. If we over trimmed the sail was useless. We had to develop the ‘when in doubt, let it out’ mantra. Only then did we start seeing comparable speeds and pointing ability to what we had seen before the new main. We had to be aware of hardening up too soon after rounding up as the boat could not go directly to a 45 or 30° point. We had to start out at 60° and as boat speed and apparent wind moved forward could we then point higher. Too flat, too fast and we stopped. 

We have never been able to get  decent boat speed with winds under 10mph. 12 is ok but upwards from 15 and we will leave the fleet behind. 

Very seldom do we have winds above 15 in NE Florida! Especially on race days!

SV Fin

Graeme Nichol 

Sail, Relax, Repeat

       ~~~ _/) ~~~

On Oct 18, 2022, at 09:11, Robert Kowalski <rc...@charter.net> wrote:



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[Jim Bordeaux]

Graeme:

I had similar complaints about a new 3Di main, then the North guy came on board and showed me the significance of getting mast bend (main draft) correct. Made all the difference. We have won our share of races with a 93 rating.

Jim

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2022, at 9:31 AM, 'Graeme Nichol' via J/4X Owner's Group <j4x-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[William Stellin]

What was the middle part?

Bill #6

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2022, at 9:11 AM, Robert Kowalski <rc...@charter.net> wrote:
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[John Plominski]

We had a brand new main this season that was designed a bit flatter to account for our typical short handed sailing mode so the boat will not overpower as quickly without 6 crew on the rail.  I will say that coming from a 30 year old blown out bag of a main sail to a proper sail shape we noticed a huge difference right away in ability to point and fine tune the power coming out of the main with outhaul, halyard, and lesser but still important input from the backstay (we typically race with a 150% ap, furling carbon genoa so we typically have enough power).  An overtrimmed sail is going to be useless regardless of how new or well set up it is.

+1 on having the right mast bend.  I've said it here before but I will say it again- rig tension.  Having your rig set up correctly is critical.   I am more or less set up for 10-12knots as far as tension goes by feel.  Too little shroud tension and the leeward side will be dangling loose and free.  Take a look next time you're on the breeze to see.  This allows the mast to sag and creates a fuller, more powerful main.  The opposite is true for a very tight rig supporting the mast and allowing the main to remain flatter.

I just ordered a Loos gauge model PT3 and will take some readings before my rig comes down in a few weeks.  Ill log those in a spreadsheet and am happy to share and compare notes if anyone is interested. 

Drew

J40 Artemisia

Boston

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[Bill Bowers]

Hi Drew

We had a lot of prebend on our carbon J42 rig using the North Loos tuning numbers.  Never sag in lee shrouds.  I felt we were slow in light air with eased backstay so set up with lower numbers on the cap and intermediates last spring.  Boat did seem livelier in light air.

But it is not clear to me why sagging to lee would create more draft, though.  If the lowers are snug and the upper part of the rig sags off wouldn't that be similar to bending the mast aft with more backstay to give less main draft (rounder track reducing luff curve induced draft).

Cheers

Bill #3

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[John Plominski]

Bill-  Sagging to leeward a bit is going to make the main more full and add power.  Picture having a hank on jib and easing some halyard tension to develop "scallops" in the sail off the headstay.

Drew

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[Bill Bowers]

But how is bending sidewise physically different from bending aft to the curved luff wanting to relax and flatten out?  Bending is not at all the same as easing vertical halyard tension which relaxes perpendicular tension in the fabric. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2022, at 8:26 PM, John Plominski <drew.pl...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Wayne Cassady]

Thanks Bill. Very helpful. Will plan to see how we compare to these numbers. We have the standard aluminum rig, deep draft, new main and roller furled 140%, so pretty similar to your set up.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:01 PM, William Stellin <wste...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[John Plominski]

The sail has to conform to the bend in mast in both directions- fore aft and athwartship.  Mast bend to flatten out the sail is a similar but opposite effect, to your point.  Some leeward sag will bag the middle part of the sail making it more full.  This article describes it as "acting like a scoop" about halfway through.   https://www.sailingworld.com/racing/bend-speed/

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[WSC]

Very helpful and resourceful thread.    After three seasons of constant experimenting, tweaking and trying to get our 10+ yr old Nordac main to "perform", I just ordered a 3Di Ocean for our 42.  I'll admit to being a "set it and forget it" type with regard to shroud tension, so the info shared here will be put to good use.   And I'll make sure I get a lot of input from the sail maker when he helps us do the initial tuning next spring. I would also concur that the our 42 struggles to compete with comparably rated boats in < 10kts with only a 135 headsail.     To a degree I chalk that up to a 10 ton boat rated 69 (us) will be slower than a 5 ton boat rated 75,  in those conditions.   But then again, I didn't buy a J42 to win the beer-can series every year....

Sean C - J42 #1

[Wayne Cassady]

I would be interested in the Loos gage spreadsheet numbers. Thanks.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 18, 2022, at 10:13 PM, John Plominski <drew.pl...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Larry Romano]

For any sailboat to point up wind the rig needs to be set up correctly. The two most important items have not been mentioned yet, forestry length and mast foot location (fore and aft). This will produce a helm that has the correct amount of weather helm and a boat with a keel and rudder producing lift. Most of this is controlled by the mast rake. The foot position controls pretend. This is important when the wind increases and you apply backstay tension the spar bends more to flatten the main and reduce weather helm. 

I found a measurement from my rigger of 52’ 4 1/2” pin to pin. 

Uppers 1750

Intermediates 1100

Lowers 1600

To make sure the mast is centered, I use a clothes spring attached to the end of the main halyard. Attach to the toe rail stretch it with the main halyard, lock the main halyard. measure the length of the spring move it to the same location on the other side and measure the spring again. The spring should be about the same length of both sides. Remember the main halyard sheeve is not in the center of the mast.

Have fun!

[Wayne Cassady]

Very helpful. I plan to check measurements over the offseason and then get in a lot of practice with notes early in the spring to get the most out of our boat.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2022, at 11:19 AM, Larry Romano <j40r...@gmail.com> wrote:

For any sailboat to point up wind the rig needs to be set up correctly. The two most important items have not been mentioned yet, forestry length and mast foot location (fore and aft). This will produce a helm that has the correct amount of weather helm and a boat with a keel and rudder producing lift. Most of this is controlled by the mast rake. The foot position controls pretend. This is important when the wind increases and you apply backstay tension the spar bends more to flatten the main and reduce weather helm. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/j4x-owners-group/146d9c7f-a100-4f90-9846-97b485fb39b1n%40googlegroups.com.