The Latin verb "facere".
jonny
I watched the film "Passion of the Christ" yesterday. The film is
partly in Latin. These Roman guards were beating Christ and one of
shouted joyfully "facciamo musica!" which I immediately understood,
but I don't understand how "facere" can conjugate the same as "fare"
have I misunderstood what was said?
Enrico C
in <news:91anh0paojseg9565...@4ax.com>
I haven't seen that fim. Anyway,"facciamo musica" is Italian.
See
http://www.verba.org/owa-verb/verba_dba.verba_LA.select_page?query_verba=facere
for the conjugation of the Latin verb "facere".
gary
"Enrico C" <use_reply...@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:12lvlffd173g9$.dlg@news.lillathedog.net...
> jonny | it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
> in <news:91anh0paojseg9565...@4ax.com>
>
> > I understand it to be the equivalent of the Italian verb "fare".
> > I watched the film "Passion of the Christ" yesterday. The film is
> > partly in Latin. These Roman guards were beating Christ and one of
> > shouted joyfully "facciamo musica!" which I immediately understood,
> > but I don't understand how "facere" can conjugate the same as "fare"
> > have I misunderstood what was said?
>
> I haven't seen that fim. Anyway,"facciamo musica" is Italian.
Shouldn't it be something like "facimus musica" in Latin? Sounds like a
continuity slip.
Enrico C
in <news:91anh0paojseg9565...@4ax.com>
> I understand it to be the equivalent of the Italian verb "fare".
I haven't seen that film. Anyway,"facciamo musica" is Italian.
Lapo
"jonny" <j...@jj.jj> ha scritto
Hi Jonny, I'm not sure of what you're asking, but I show you latin and
italian versions in comparison:
Infinitve italian : Fare Infinitive latin: Facere
I do - (It) : faccio (Latin): facio;
You do - (It) : fai (Latin): facis;
He does - (It) : fa (Latin): facit;
We do - (It): facciamo (Lating): facimus;
You do - (It): fate [facete is an archaic form] (Latin): facitis;
They do - (It): fanno (Latin): faciunt;
http://www.informalmusic.com/latinsoc/verbs/facio.html
In any case I wonder to hear ancient latins saying : "facciamo musica". This
is italian, not latin.
I guess an ancient Roman could have said : "Facimus musicam" or better
"canimus" (cano, canis, cecini, cantum, care, from wihich the italian
"cantare", in latin means to play instrumental music also).
jonny
<use_reply...@despammed.com> wrote:
Thanks, It must have been "facimus or faciamus musica" either that or
they made a mistake, which I doubt, I only heard it once.
gary
"jonny" <j...@jj.jj> wrote in message
news:flcnh0hm67013ncft...@4ax.com...
I didn't see the movie. Was the "c" pronounced like "k" or "ch"? If the
latter (Italianate pronunciation) I can see how it might be confused with
"facciamo". I believe that in the Latin of the Republic and the early
Empire, "c" was always pronounced as "k", although I could be mistaken.
Enrico C
in <news:flcnh0hm67013ncft...@4ax.com>
> Thanks, It must have been "facimus or faciamus musica" either that or
Then it must have been "musicam", accusative.
[Latin music? Was it salsa or bossa nova? ;-) ]
jonny
<use_reply...@despammed.com> wrote:
>jonny | it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
>in <news:flcnh0hm67013ncft...@4ax.com>
>
>> Thanks, It must have been "facimus or faciamus musica" either that or
>
>Then it must have been "musicam", accusative.
Yeah, I've got this totally wrong, I've had chance to listen to it
again, he says:
"Faciam musicam".
>[Latin music? Was it salsa or bossa nova? ;-) ]
It was the Roman torture :(
FB
> I didn't see the movie. Was the "c" pronounced like "k" or "ch"?
A Catholic priest supervised the dialogue, so the pronunciation must have
been the Ecclesiastic. Luckily enough, I add, for restored pronunciation is
a "chiavica".
Bye, FB
--
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - http://snipurl.com/7ryg)
Lapo
"gary" <please...@sbcglobal.net> ha scritto
> I didn't see the movie. Was the "c" pronounced like "k" or "ch"? If the
> latter (Italianate pronunciation) I can see how it might be confused with
> "facciamo". I believe that in the Latin of the Republic and the early
> Empire, "c" was always pronounced as "k", although I could be mistaken.
This is an old diatribe here. I can't guess the way to ascertain original
pronunciation. In my opinion the transition from a guttural form to a non
croaky one must be very traumatic. It is difficult to imagine such a change.
I think the true reason of this latin is that is more appealing to imagine
warriors without the sweetness of italian words.
gary
"Lapo" <la...@ddssd.com> wrote in message
news:feTSc.41143$OH4.1...@twister1.libero.it...
The hard "c" is the way I learned years ago. Apparently this is the way it
is taught today, at least in US universities. See
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/cc303/sounds/
for a review of reconstructed Latin pronunciation, with audio clips. All
"c"s are hard (see "civis").
Also,
http://www.ai.uga.edu/mc/latinpro.pdf
is informative. It claims that the grounds for reconstructed pronunciation
are pretty good. It's probably pretty close to the way Latin sounded before
the end of the 3rd century AD (or CE, for those who prefer it).
>
>
>
ADPUF
> for a review of reconstructed Latin pronunciation, with
> audio clips. All "c"s are hard (see "civis").
kiwis?
--
oggi no, domani sì
gary
"ADPUF" <flyh...@mosq.it> wrote in message
news:Ui8Tc.137096$5D1.6...@news4.tin.it...
> on 05:45, venerdě 13 agosto 2004 gary wrote:
>
> > for a review of reconstructed Latin pronunciation, with
> > audio clips. All "c"s are hard (see "civis").
>
>
> kiwis?
Yes, the typical Roman citizen was a hairy fruit from New Zealand :->.
>
>
> --
> oggi no, domani sě
FB
> on 05:45, venerdì 13 agosto 2004 gary wrote:
>
>> for a review of reconstructed Latin pronunciation, with
>> audio clips. All "c"s are hard (see "civis").
>
>
> kiwis?
Infatti. Sarà anche così che parlavano i latini, ma la pronunkiatio
restituta fa straschifo.
Ciao, FB
--
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)
joscurtin
>
> > for a review of reconstructed Latin pronunciation, with
> > audio clips. All "c"s are hard (see "civis").
>
>
> kiwis?
>
I seem to remember reading in a book on generative grammar, possibly
by Noam Chomsky, that the evolution of sounds always progresses in the
same direction. That is, a hard "c" will always evolve into a soft
"c", and never vice-versa. This allows identifying what sounds are
older, and therefore closer, to the original language from which two
or more languages may have evolved. It is a little more difficult with
"dead" languages, since we can never be sure how the language was
spoken, unless written descriptions of the ancient pronunciation
exist.
Joe from Massachusetts
gary
"joscurtin" <josc...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:qicTc.79755$cv5.23083@lakeread07...
The pronunciation guide I mentioned at
http://www.ai.uga.edu/mc/latinpro.pdf
lists several reasons why scholars are confident about reconstructed
pronunciation. They sound pretty convincing:
3 Do we know how the Romans pronounced Latin?
Surprisingly, yes. The details of the reconstruction are given in W. Sidney
Allen, Vox Latina (written in English), Cambridge, 1965. There are several
main sources of knowledge:
. The Latin alphabet was meant to be entirely phonetic. Unlike us, the
ancient Romans did not inherit their spellings from any earlier language.
What you see is what you get.
. Language teaching was big business in Roman times, and ancient Roman
grammarians give us surprisingly detailed information about the sounds of
the language.
. Languages derived from Latin give us a lot of evidence. In fact, many of
the letters of the alphabet are pronounced the same way in French, Spanish,
Portuguese, and Italian. It stands to reason that the original Latin
pronunciation has survived.
. Spelling errors made by the ancient Romans are very informative. If two
letters are often mixed up, they must sound fairly similar. Likewise, if two
letters are never mixed up, we know they sounded different. Here's an
example. In classical times, the natives had no trouble keeping ae distinct
from e; if they ever misspelled ae it came out ai. Later on, they started
changing ae to e. That enables us to pinpoint when the sound of ae changed.
. Finally, transcriptions into other writing systems, such as Greek and
Sanskrit, often pin down the ancient pronunciation of Latin very precisely.
>
> Joe from Massachusetts
>
>
Sebapop
>> kiwis?
>
>Yes, the typical Roman citizen was a hairy fruit from New Zealand :->.
That's the Kiwi fruit. A Kivi is bird unable to fly. Or a New
Zealander. :)
Sebastiano
Enrico C
in <news:xxcTc.140$_i....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>
> In classical times, the natives had no trouble keeping ae distinct
> from e; if they ever misspelled ae it came out ai.
This one counts for "Caesar", not for "civis", though :)
joscurtin
"gary" <please...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:xxcTc.140$_i...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
Thanks for the information.
I remember when I was studying Latin, there were conflicts between
those who preferred the "hard c" sound and those who preferred the
"soft" sound. They didn't seem to be concerned about which was truer
to the original Latin. It seems that certain schools adhered to one
system, and other schools to the other.
There is still a widespread conflict about the pronunciation of the
word "Celtic" in the English language, even though the "correct"
English pronunciation should be with the "soft c".
Joe from Massachusetts
gary
It's funny how - in English especially - the simplest pronunciation
questions often end in conflict. I'd always pronounced the word "keltik",
but I lived in Boston and Cambridge at one time, and I know all about the
"Baaahhston Seltiks".
So I looked up the word at
http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/C0193200.html
and the preferred pronunciation is listed as "keltik", with "seltik" as
secondary. In fact, this dictionary provides a nifty little audio clip for
pronunciation (click the speaker icon on the pronunciation line). There is
also a listing for keltic as an alternate spelling.
>
>
>
gary
Somewhere in here there's a joke about the Kaiser, but I'm not up to it.
jonny
wrote:
>
>It's funny how - in English especially - the simplest pronunciation
>questions often end in conflict. I'd always pronounced the word "keltik",
>but I lived in Boston and Cambridge at one time, and I know all about the
>"Baaahhston Seltiks".
>
>So I looked up the word at
>
>http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/C0193200.html
>
>and the preferred pronunciation is listed as "keltik", with "seltik" as
>secondary. In fact, this dictionary provides a nifty little audio clip for
>pronunciation (click the speaker icon on the pronunciation line). There is
>also a listing for keltic as an alternate spelling.
There's a big football (soccer) team in Glasgow, Scotland, called
"Celtic", this is always pronounced "seltic" here (UK) but if one was
to talk about "Celtic languages", the pronunciation is always
"Keltic".
joscurtin
The Oxford Dictionary (at least the one I have) lists "seltic" as the
preferred pronunciation, with "keltic" as the alternative.
All the dictionaries list both pronunciations.
If you consider "Celtic" as an English word, evolved from Greek and
Latin just as "celtico" in Italian evolved from Latin, wouldn't the
preferred English pronunciation be "Seltic"?
Joe from Massachusetts.
gary
Aside from the American Heritage dictionary, I also checked online
Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Infoplease, and dictionary.com, which all agree
on "keltik"; Wordsymth agrees with the OED and puts "seltik" first.
This might be a difference between British and American usage. I agree that
the common English pattern is to pronounce "c" before "i" and "e" as soft (I
think we got that spelling convention from Norman French). So, it is notable
that North American dictionaries seem to agree on the hard "c" for celtic.
Maybe North American academics have pedantically insisted on a Latin
pronunciation. British scholars are famously indifferent to this, and
pronounce assimilated words with broad vowels and softened consonants.
>
> Joe from Massachusetts.
>
>
FB
> The Oxford Dictionary (at least the one I have) lists "seltic" as the
> preferred pronunciation, with "keltic" as the alternative.
I've had the occasion to look "Celtic" up on The Shorter Oxford English
Dictionary (fifth edition), and it reads:
QUOTE
Celtic
/'kEltik/ [1], 's-/
Also Keltic /'k-/
UNQUOTE
[1] /'kɛltik/, in unicode.
Bye, FB
--
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)
Xakero
> It's funny how - in English especially - the simplest pronunciation
> questions often end in conflict. I'd always pronounced the word "keltik",
> but I lived in Boston and Cambridge at one time, and I know all about the
> "Baaahhston Seltiks".
>
> So I looked up the word at
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/C0193200.html
>
> and the preferred pronunciation is listed as "keltik", with "seltik" as
> secondary.
Anche il Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary sulla pagina
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=12146&ph=on
--
Xakero
Xakero
> The Oxford Dictionary (at least the one I have) lists "seltic" as the
> preferred pronunciation, with "keltic" as the alternative.
> All the dictionaries list both pronunciations.
> If you consider "Celtic" as an English word, evolved from Greek and
> Latin just as "celtico" in Italian evolved from Latin, wouldn't the
> preferred English pronunciation be "Seltic"?
Le famose divergenze fra Cambridge e Oxford? Forse no.
Mi sono chiesto come lo insegnano a Oxford . http://www.oup.com/elt/oald/ da
keltik come prima scelta, i dizionari cartacei The Oxford Concise
Dictionario del 1995 e del 1964 e l'Oxford Guide to the English Language
segnalano keltik come unica pronuncia. L'Oxford Advanced Dictionary of
Current English indica keltik, US seltik.
--
Xakero
Enrico C
in <news:2o7ghcF...@uni-berlin.de>
> L'Oxford Advanced Dictionary of
> Current English indica keltik, US seltik.
Anche secondo lo Zanichelli e l'Hazon Garzanti, la pronuncia morbida
sarebbe US.
joscurtin
"FB" <fam.baldu...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1v4bsfrniek5s.1...@40tude.net...
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:53:18 -0400, joscurtin wrote:
>
> > The Oxford Dictionary (at least the one I have) lists "seltic" as
the
> > preferred pronunciation, with "keltic" as the alternative.
>
> I've had the occasion to look "Celtic" up on The Shorter Oxford
English
> Dictionary (fifth edition), and it reads:
>
> QUOTE
> Celtic
>
> /'kEltik/ [1], 's-/
>
> Also Keltic /'k-/
> UNQUOTE
>
>
> [1] /'kɛltik/, in unicode.
>
My Compact Edition of the Oxford Dictionary (1976) says the
pronunciation is "Seltic, alternate Keltic". It may be that with
recent renewed interest in Celtic music, history, and culture, that
the less-English sounding pronunciation "Keltic" has become the
preferred pronunciation, in later editions of the Oxford, and other
dictionaries.
Joe from Massachusetts
FB
Dato che si usa anche per una squadra di Glasgow, come ha detto Jonny, ho
idea che la differenza non sia tanto BritEng vs AmEng, ma uso colto vs uso
comune.
Ciao, FB
--
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)
ADPUF
> I seem to remember reading in a book on generative
> grammar, possibly by Noam Chomsky, that the evolution of
> sounds always progresses in the same direction. That is, a
> hard "c" will always evolve into a soft "c", and never
> vice-versa. This allows identifying what sounds are older,
> and therefore closer, to the original language from which
> two or more languages may have evolved. It is a little
> more difficult with "dead" languages, since we can never
> be sure how the language was spoken, unless written
> descriptions of the ancient pronunciation exist.
>
> Joe from Massachusetts
In friulano c'è un suono che ha preso il posto della C/G
dure, si scrive CJ/GJ e ha una pronuncia a metà fra KY e TY
(GY e DY rispettivamente)
p.es.
cane: cjan
casa: cjase
gatto: gjat
In alcuni luoghi la pronuncia è arrivata alla C/G molle:
cian, ciase, giat.
Questo fatto porta acqua al mulino di Chomsky (Chomsky's
Mill)
Joey DoWop Dee
> It's funny how - in English especially - the simplest pronunciation
> questions often end in conflict. I'd always pronounced the word "keltik",
> but I lived in Boston and Cambridge at one time, and I know all about the
> "Baaahhston Seltiks".
>
> So I looked up the word at
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/61/32/C0193200.html
>
> and the preferred pronunciation is listed as "keltik", with "seltik" as
> secondary. In fact, this dictionary provides a nifty little audio clip for
> pronunciation (click the speaker icon on the pronunciation line). There is
> also a listing for keltic as an alternate spelling.
>
Having lived in Boston for most of my life (and owing to the Bahston
Seltiks), I am condemned always to pronounce it with the soft C, much to
the chagrin of my Scottish neighbor.
--
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.