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Piccoli esercizi di traduzione 38, the end! :-)

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Max

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Aug 1, 2004, 1:01:05 PM8/1/04
to
"if...":

1 Che cosa penserà Sue se non la inviterai alla tua festa?
What will Sue think if you don't invite her at the party?
2 Se non riesco a trovare un appartamento, starò in albergo.
If I don't find an appartment/a flat, I'll stay in the hotel.
3 Se hai tempo, telefonami prima di partire.
If you have time, phone me before you leave.
4 Scusi, Le spiace se mi siedo qui?
Excuse me, do you mind if I sit down here?
5 Se non pioverà, domenica andremo in campagna.
If it doesn't rain, on Sunday we'll go in the country.
6 Farete tardi se non prenderete un taxi.
You'll be late if you don't take a taxi.
7 Quando lascerò la scuola, voglio andare all'università.
When I leave school, I want to go to university.
8 Incominceremo quando tutti saranno qui.
We'll start when everyone is here.

"Congiuntivo e condizionale":

1 A Rita piacerebbe James se lo conoscesse.
Rita would like James if she knew him.
2 Se fossi in te, non andrei così forte in macchina.
If I was you, I wouldn't go so fast by car.
3 Che cosa direbbe Liz se tu non l'invitassi alla tua festa?
What would Liz say if you didn't invite her at your party?
4 Che cosa dirà Liz se non l'inviterai alla tua festa?
What will Liz say if you don't invite her at your party?
5 Nick non avrebbe tanti amici se non fosse così ricco.
Nick wouldn't have so many friends if he wasn't so rich.
6 Se mia madre abitasse qui, i bambini potrebbero stare con lei.
If my mother lived here, the children could stay with her.
7 Se tutti imparassero l'inglese, tutto sarebbe più facile.
If everyone learned English, everything would be easier.
8 Se imparerai bene l'inglese, non avrai problemi.
If you learn well English, you won't have problems.
9 Non farei questo lavoro se non mi piacesse.
I wouldn't do this job if I didn't like it.

"Frasi relative":
(Il libro mi impone: "non usare who/which/that dove non sono indispensabili")

1 Chi era l'uomo che ci guardava?
Who was the man who was looking us?
2 È questa la mano che ti fa male?
Is this the hand that hurts you?
3 Qualcuno ha visto la palla che era in camera mia?
Has anybody seen the ball which was in my room?
4 Mia sorella lavora in un negozio che vende computer.
My sister works in a shop which sells computers.
5 Il kiwi è uno strano uccello che vive in Nuova Zelanda.
Kiwi is a strange bird which lives in New Zealand.
6 Come si chiamava la donna che ha telefonato ieri?
What was the woman's name who called yesterday?
7 Vorrei parlare con il meccanico che ha riparato la mia macchina ieri.
I want to speak with the mechanic who repaired my car yesterday.
8 Great Expectations è la storia di un ragazzo che diventa ricco, ma non
felice.
Great Expectation is the story of a kid who become rich, but not happy.
9 Hai trovato la giacca che cercavi?
Did you find a jacket which you looked for?
10 II museo che visiteremo è molto grande.
The museum which we'll visit is very big.
11 Chi era il ragazzo che abbiamo incontrato ieri?
Who was the kid we met yesterday?
12 Cerco qualcuno che sappia parlare lo spagnolo.
I'm looking for somebody who can speak Spanish.
13 Dove hai comprato i calzoni che portavi ieri mattina?
Where did you buy the pants/trousers you were wearing yesterday morning?
14 L'insegnante che avevamo l'anno scorso era molto brava.
The teacher we had last year was very good.
15 Non mi piacciono le persone che sono sempre in ritardo.
I don't like people who are always late.
16 Jim lavora in una grande fabbrica che produce biciclette.
Jim works in a big factory which produces bicycles.
17 'Chi sono Mr e Mrs Jones?' 'Le persone che abitano al terzo piano.'
Who are Mr and Mrs Jones? The people who live on the third floor.
18 Hai visto il cane che è entrato nel nostro garage ieri mattina?
Did you see the dog that went in the our garage yesterday morning?

Qui si chiude il libro e per me inizia la fase 2 ossia (forse) la più
divertente: lessico, pronuncia e pratica.
In altri termini: libri, DVD e tentativi di scrivere(su questo stesso ng
ovviamente).

Quando mi giudicherete(e mi giudicherò) pronto, tra qualche secolo,
sottoscriverò anche qualche ng madrelingua di mio interesse sperando
soprattutto che non mi ridano dietro :-)


Ultima postilla: Il libro di grammatica appena finito era a livello
elementary: questo vuol dire che prendo i gradi di "lower-intermediate"?
:-)))
Ora userò "A practical English Grammar" di Thomson e
Martinet(del 1960) come supporto e riferimento grazie al comodo
indice(basta grammatiche da studiare pagina per pagina...quella che ho appena
terminato credo sia sufficiente per permettermi di buttarmi sullo studio del
lessico, ossia: leggere, leggere, leggere!).


Per chiudere ringrazio infinitamente tutti quelli che mi hanno seguito
costantemente in tutti gli esercizi di traduzione: siete stati incredibili, mai
visto un ng così disponibile!

Ciao.

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

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Aug 1, 2004, 1:27:29 PM8/1/04
to
On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:01:05 GMT, Max wrote:

> "if...":
>
> 1 Che cosa penserà Sue se non la inviterai alla tua festa?
> What will Sue think if you don't invite her at the party?

...if you don't invite her *to* the party?

> 2 Se non riesco a trovare un appartamento, starò in albergo.
> If I don't find an appartment/a flat, I'll stay in the hotel.

... *a* hotel (or *the*, depending on context. If a specific hotel has been
mentioned, the "the" is correct; if not and any hotel in general is meant,
then "a hotel".

> "Congiuntivo e condizionale":


>
> 2 Se fossi in te, non andrei così forte in macchina.
> If I was you, I wouldn't go so fast by car.

If I *were* you, ...

> 3 Che cosa direbbe Liz se tu non l'invitassi alla tua festa?
> What would Liz say if you didn't invite her at your party?

...invite her *to* ...

> 4 Che cosa dirà Liz se non l'inviterai alla tua festa?
> What will Liz say if you don't invite her at your party?

...ibid...

> 5 Nick non avrebbe tanti amici se non fosse così ricco.
> Nick wouldn't have so many friends if he wasn't so rich.

(or: ...if he *weren't* so rich.)

> 8 Se imparerai bene l'inglese, non avrai problemi.
> If you learn well English, you won't have problems.

If you learn English well, ...

> "Frasi relative":
> (Il libro mi impone: "non usare who/which/that dove non sono indispensabili")
>
> 1 Chi era l'uomo che ci guardava?
> Who was the man who was looking us?

Who was the man looking at us?

> 3 Qualcuno ha visto la palla che era in camera mia?
> Has anybody seen the ball which was in my room?

(or: ...the ball that...)

> 4 Mia sorella lavora in un negozio che vende computer.
> My sister works in a shop which sells computers.

(or: ...shop that sells...)

> 5 Il kiwi è uno strano uccello che vive in Nuova Zelanda.
> Kiwi is a strange bird which lives in New Zealand.

(or: ... that lives...)

> 9 Hai trovato la giacca che cercavi?
> Did you find a jacket which you looked for?

Did you find *the jacket you were looking for*?
(or: ...the jacket that you were looking for?)

> 10 II museo che visiteremo è molto grande.
> The museum which we'll visit is very big.

(or: ...the museum that...)

> 16 Jim lavora in una grande fabbrica che produce biciclette.
> Jim works in a big factory which produces bicycles.

(or: ...factory that produces...)

> 17 'Chi sono Mr e Mrs Jones?' 'Le persone che abitano al terzo piano.'
> Who are Mr and Mrs Jones? The people who live on the third floor.

(ma non dovrebbe essere "...the *fourth* floor"? :)

> 18 Hai visto il cane che è entrato nel nostro garage ieri mattina?
> Did you see the dog that went in the our garage yesterday morning?

..."*the* or *our* garage" but not both :))

[My insistence on "that" instead of "which" in the sentences above will
continue forever, but be aware that it's more of an American convention
than British. And, while it's not *considered* incorrect in AmEng usage, it
really *is* and to the learned few, it is really a sore thumb. :) ]


> Qui si chiude il libro e per me inizia la fase 2 ossia (forse) la più
> divertente: lessico, pronuncia e pratica.

Buon lavoro e buona fortuna!

--
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 1, 2004, 1:29:29 PM8/1/04
to
On 01-Aug-04 18:01:05, Max said:

>1 Che cosa penserà Sue se non la inviterai alla tua festa?
>What will Sue think if you don't invite her at the party?

to your party. "at your party" vuol dire che mentre Sue e' alla tua
festa, la inviti a fare qualcosa. Non e' impossible, ma dubito che il
senso della frase iniziale sia questo.

>5 Se non pioverà, domenica andremo in campagna.
>If it doesn't rain, on Sunday we'll go in the country.

to the countryside? into the countryside?

>2 Se fossi in te, non andrei così forte in macchina.
>If I was you, I wouldn't go so fast by car.

If I were you, I wouldn't drive so fast.
Si sente "was", esattamente come in italiano si sente "Se c'ero, te lo
dicevo".

>3 Che cosa direbbe Liz se tu non l'invitassi alla tua festa?
>What would Liz say if you didn't invite her at your party?

to your party. vedi 1.

>4 Che cosa dirà Liz se non l'inviterai alla tua festa?
>What will Liz say if you don't invite her at your party?

to your party. vedi 1.

>5 Nick non avrebbe tanti amici se non fosse così ricco.
>Nick wouldn't have so many friends if he wasn't so rich.

"if he were not so rich", almeno in teoria

>8 Se imparerai bene l'inglese, non avrai problemi.
>If you learn well English, you won't have problems.

English well... forse "any problems"

>"Frasi relative":
>(Il libro mi impone: "non usare who/which/that dove non sono indispensabili")

>1 Chi era l'uomo che ci guardava?
>Who was the man who was looking us?

at us

>2 È questa la mano che ti fa male?
>Is this the hand that hurts you?

which hurts / which is hurting?

>4 Mia sorella lavora in un negozio che vende computer.
>My sister works in a shop which sells computers.

in a computer shop

>6 Come si chiamava la donna che ha telefonato ieri?
>What was the woman's name who called yesterday?

What was the name of that woman who called yesterday?
Tu hai scritto "Qual e' quel nome da donna che ha telefonato ieri?"

>8 Great Expectations è la storia di un ragazzo che diventa ricco, ma non
>felice.
>Great Expectation is the story of a kid who become rich, but not happy.

becomes

>9 Hai trovato la giacca che cercavi?
>Did you find a jacket which you looked for?

Did you find the jacket you were looking for?

>10 II museo che visiteremo è molto grande.
>The museum which we'll visit is very big.

"The museum which we'll visit" sembra un po' strano.
The museum we're going to visit?

>16 Jim lavora in una grande fabbrica che produce biciclette.
>Jim works in a big factory which produces bicycles.

in a big bicycle factory?

>Qui si chiude il libro e per me inizia la fase 2 ossia (forse) la più
>divertente: lessico, pronuncia e pratica.

Beh, ci sono anche "English Grammar in Use" e "Advanced Grammar in
Use", no? E anche la collana "Vocabulary in Use".

>Ultima postilla: Il libro di grammatica appena finito era a livello
>elementary: questo vuol dire che prendo i gradi di "lower-intermediate"?
>:-)))

Si'

>Ora userò "A practical English Grammar" di Thomson e
>Martinet(del 1960) come supporto e riferimento grazie al comodo
>indice(basta grammatiche da studiare pagina per pagina...quella che ho appena
>terminato credo sia sufficiente per permettermi di buttarmi sullo studio del
>lessico, ossia: leggere, leggere, leggere!).

Anche lo Swan non sarebbe una cattiva idea.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
When we declare an alien species to be raman, it does not mean that
_they_ have passed a threshold of moral maturity. It means that we have.

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

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Aug 1, 2004, 1:39:31 PM8/1/04
to
On 1 Aug 2004 18:29:29 +0100, Adam Atkinson wrote:

>>2 Č questa la mano che ti fa male?


>>Is this the hand that hurts you?
>
> which hurts / which is hurting?

LOL. Not meant to have contradicted you, Adam, I prefer "that." As an
example of why, if the sentence were:

Is this the hand that hurts you, which is why you're using the other hand?

it would explain the difference.

FB

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Aug 1, 2004, 3:16:14 PM8/1/04
to
On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:39:31 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo wrote:

> On 1 Aug 2004 18:29:29 +0100, Adam Atkinson wrote:
>

>>>2 È questa la mano che ti fa male?


>>>Is this the hand that hurts you?
>>
>> which hurts / which is hurting?
>
> LOL. Not meant to have contradicted you, Adam, I prefer "that." As an
> example of why, if the sentence were:
>
> Is this the hand that hurts you, which is why you're using the other hand?
>
> it would explain the difference.

BritEng is not so strict in this respect. (<== I'm not sure about this
sentence, but I'll take the risk)


Bye, FB
--
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

FB

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Aug 1, 2004, 3:22:15 PM8/1/04
to
On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:01:05 GMT, Max wrote:

> "if...":
>

> 2 Se non riesco a trovare un appartamento, starò in albergo.
> If I don't find an appartment/a flat, I'll stay in the hotel.

In BritEng si usano entrambe le parole, mentre in USA forse solo
"apartment".


> Qui si chiude il libro e per me inizia la fase 2 ossia (forse) la più
> divertente: lessico, pronuncia e pratica.

Detto tra noi, ora che hai finito, ora finisce la parte più noiosa!
(faccina sorridente) Ora puoi proseguire forse con meno costanza.


> In altri termini: libri, DVD

Utilissime entrambe le cose. Anche la pronuncia è importante, secondo me.


> e tentativi di scrivere(su questo stesso ng ovviamente).

A me scrivere sui ng aiuta tantissimo.


> Quando mi giudicherete(e mi giudicherò) pronto, tra qualche secolo,
> sottoscriverò anche qualche ng madrelingua di mio interesse sperando
> soprattutto che non mi ridano dietro :-)

Puoi farlo anche adesso! Tanto non sei mica in diretta.


> Ora userò "A practical English Grammar" di Thomson e
> Martinet(del 1960) come supporto e riferimento

Molto buona e chiara. Puoi valutare la possibilità di comprare anche
"Practical English Usage", di Michael Swan; solo quando sentirai il bisogno
di avere qualcosa di più esauriente, s'intende.


> Per chiudere ringrazio infinitamente tutti quelli che mi hanno seguito
> costantemente in tutti gli esercizi di traduzione: siete stati incredibili, mai
> visto un ng così disponibile!

You're welcome. (non chiedere "Benvenuto dove?", altrimenti ti togliamo i
gradi) (faccina sorridente)


Ciao, FB
--
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

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Aug 1, 2004, 3:34:04 PM8/1/04
to
On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 19:16:14 GMT, FB wrote:

>> Is this the hand that hurts you, which is why you're using the other hand?
>

> BritEng is not so strict in this respect. (<== I'm not sure about this
> sentence, but I'll take the risk)

How do you think the above sentence would be uttered in BrEng?

BTW, your sentence is fine.

FB

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Aug 1, 2004, 3:47:22 PM8/1/04
to
On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 19:34:04 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 19:16:14 GMT, FB wrote:
>
>>> Is this the hand that hurts you, which is why you're using the other hand?
>>
>> BritEng is not so strict in this respect. (<== I'm not sure about this
>> sentence, but I'll take the risk)
>
> How do you think the above sentence would be uttered in BrEng?

I don't know for sure, but Adam happens to speak British English.
I, for one, think the English people choose between "that" and "which" by
ear (though, of course, "that" is not allowed in non-defining relative
clauses).


> BTW, your sentence is fine.

Thanks.


Bye, FB
--
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - http://snipurl.com/7ryg)

Adam Atkinson

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Aug 1, 2004, 4:02:45 PM8/1/04
to
On 01-Aug-04 18:39:31, Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo said:
>On 1 Aug 2004 18:29:29 +0100, Adam Atkinson wrote:

>>>2 Č questa la mano che ti fa male?
>>>Is this the hand that hurts you?
>>
>> which hurts / which is hurting?

>LOL. Not meant to have contradicted you, Adam, I prefer "that." As an
>example of why, if the sentence were:

I meant without "you" on the end. I'm indifferent between "that hurts"
and "which hurts", I'd say.

--
Adam Atkinson (gh...@mistral.co.uk)
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

Max

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Aug 2, 2004, 3:09:59 PM8/2/04
to
Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo affermò che:


>> 2 Se fossi in te, non andrei così forte in macchina.
>> If I was you, I wouldn't go so fast by car.
>
> If I *were* you, ...


My grammar book says: "Si può dire IF(i/he/she/it) WAS oppure WERE...."

So I chose "was" for avoid mistakes.


>> 5 Nick non avrebbe tanti amici se non fosse così ricco.
>> Nick wouldn't have so many friends if he wasn't so rich.
>
> (or: ...if he *weren't* so rich.)


Quindi questo anche vale anche per la 2?
Allore non era una correzione la tua, ma solo una seconda alternativa, no?

> [My insistence on "that" instead of "which" in the sentences above will
> continue forever, but be aware that it's more of an American convention
> than British.


Then I think I'll use "that" :-))))


> Buon lavoro e buona fortuna!


Thanks for everything!

p.s.

I wait for your corrections in this message! :-)

Max

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Aug 2, 2004, 3:10:00 PM8/2/04
to
Adam Atkinson affermň che:


> If I were you, I wouldn't drive so fast.
> Si sente "was", esattamente come in italiano si sente "Se c'ero, te lo
> dicevo".

Ah ecco, per il mio libro sembravano identici....

>>5 Nick non avrebbe tanti amici se non fosse cosě ricco.


>>Nick wouldn't have so many friends if he wasn't so rich.
>
> "if he were not so rich", almeno in teoria

Ossia meglio usare "were" a prescindere dalla persona?

Cioč, "If I were = se fossi", "If she were= se fosse", e cosi via?

>>6 Come si chiamava la donna che ha telefonato ieri?
>>What was the woman's name who called yesterday?
>
> What was the name of that woman who called yesterday?
> Tu hai scritto "Qual e' quel nome da donna che ha telefonato ieri?"

Non sottilizziamo.... :-)))))))))))))))))))))


>>Ultima postilla: Il libro di grammatica appena finito era a livello
>>elementary: questo vuol dire che prendo i gradi di "lower-intermediate"?
>>:-)))
>
> Si'


Questo tuo "si" finirŕ sul mio curriculum, ormai sono UFFICIALMENTE promosso!
:-)


>>Ora userň "A practical English Grammar" di Thomson e


>>Martinet(del 1960) come supporto e riferimento grazie al comodo
>>indice(basta grammatiche da studiare pagina per pagina...quella che ho appena
>>terminato credo sia sufficiente per permettermi di buttarmi sullo studio del
>>lessico, ossia: leggere, leggere, leggere!).
>
> Anche lo Swan non sarebbe una cattiva idea.


Piů in lŕ :-)

Ciao.

Max

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Aug 2, 2004, 3:10:01 PM8/2/04
to
FB affermò che:

>> In altri termini: libri, DVD
>
> Utilissime entrambe le cose. Anche la pronuncia è importante, secondo me.


Per me guardare DVD significa anche lavorare sulla pronuncia...no?

>> Quando mi giudicherete(e mi giudicherò) pronto, tra qualche secolo,
>> sottoscriverò anche qualche ng madrelingua di mio interesse sperando
>> soprattutto che non mi ridano dietro :-)
>
> Puoi farlo anche adesso!

Qui si.... ma in quali ng inglesi troverei la stessa disponibilità che trovo su
i.c.l.i ? :-)
Probabilmente sorvolerebbero sui miei errori, e se ne facessi di talmente gravi
da comprometterne la comprensione con tutta probabilità mi ignorerebbero.

Ciao.

Tony the ice man

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Aug 2, 2004, 3:21:10 PM8/2/04
to
>>> 2 Se fossi in te, non andrei cosě forte in macchina.

>>> If I was you, I wouldn't go so fast by car.

>> If I *were* you, ...

> My grammar book says: "Si puň dire IF(i/he/she/it) WAS oppure WERE...."


> So I chose "was" for avoid mistakes.

So I choose "was" to avoid mistakes.
So I chose "was" to avoid a mistake.

Hai scelto male. Se fosse in te, direi "were". A volte il congiuntivo in
italiano e the subjunctive in inglese sono d'accordo.

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

unread,
Aug 2, 2004, 3:29:33 PM8/2/04
to
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:09:59 GMT, Max wrote:

>>> 2 Se fossi in te, non andrei cosě forte in macchina.


>>> If I was you, I wouldn't go so fast by car.
>>
>> If I *were* you, ...
>

> My grammar book says: "Si puň dire IF(i/he/she/it) WAS oppure WERE...."

>
> So I chose "was" for avoid mistakes.
>

>>> 5 Nick non avrebbe tanti amici se non fosse cosě ricco.


>>> Nick wouldn't have so many friends if he wasn't so rich.
>>
>> (or: ...if he *weren't* so rich.)
>
> Quindi questo anche vale anche per la 2?
> Allore non era una correzione la tua, ma solo una seconda alternativa, no?

Yes, yes, by all means. You can use the indicative in both instances, but
to my ear "if I was you" sounds uneducated. Not so much with "if he wasn't
rich" but *my* preference is still for the subjunctive in this sentence as
well.

No other corrections to make!!!!! :)

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

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Aug 2, 2004, 3:54:35 PM8/2/04
to
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:10:00 GMT, Max wrote:

>> "if he were not so rich", almeno in teoria
>
> Ossia meglio usare "were" a prescindere dalla persona?
>
> Cioč, "If I were = se fossi", "If she were= se fosse", e cosi via?

Note:

If I were at the beach, I'd go swimming.
If I was at the beach, I didn't go swimming.
If I was at the beach, I don't remember it.

jonny

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Aug 2, 2004, 5:43:34 PM8/2/04
to
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:09:59 GMT, Max <maxf...@despammed.com> wrote:

>Then I think I'll use "that" :-))))
>
>
>> Buon lavoro e buona fortuna!
>
>
>Thanks for everything!
>
>p.s.
>
>I wait for your corrections in this message! :-)

Max, dovresti scrivere in inglese piů spesso, č meglio del mio
italiano e scrivo in italiano tutto il tempo :)

Lorenzo

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Aug 3, 2004, 2:10:23 AM8/3/04
to
"Max" <maxf...@despammed.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:l2g2u1-...@massimo.max...

> Qui si.... ma in quali ng inglesi troverei la stessa disponibilità che
trovo su
> i.c.l.i ? :-)
> Probabilmente sorvolerebbero sui miei errori, e se ne facessi di talmente
gravi
> da comprometterne la comprensione con tutta probabilità mi ignorerebbero.

Non credo proprio...

Il problema a mio parere è semmai il contrario: su questo newsgroup se
sbagli a scrivere c'è gente con un'ottima conoscenza della lingua che ti
corregge.
Sui newsgroup o sui forum non specifici invece solitamente nessuno fa una
piega anche di fronte agli errori più madornali. Il che implica che si debba
essere molto critici anche su quello che scrivono gli altri, che non è
affatto detto che sia del tutto corretto.

--
Lorenzo Castelli
E-Mail: gcas...@racine.ra.it


Max

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Aug 3, 2004, 5:52:47 AM8/3/04
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jonny affermň che:


Se scrivo piů spesso uscirebbero le magagne, finchč mi limito a pochissime
parole posso anche essere fortunato... :-)

Per quanto riguarda il tuo italiano, in questo post non hai fatto errori, forse
solo "migliore" al posto di "meglio" sarebbe meglio :-)


Ciao.

Max

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Aug 3, 2004, 5:52:48 AM8/3/04
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Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo affermň che:

> On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:10:00 GMT, Max wrote:
>
>>> "if he were not so rich", almeno in teoria
>>
>> Ossia meglio usare "were" a prescindere dalla persona?
>>
>> Cioč, "If I were = se fossi", "If she were= se fosse", e cosi via?
>
> Note:
>
> If I were at the beach, I'd go swimming.
> If I was at the beach, I didn't go swimming.
> If I was at the beach, I don't remember it.

Le cose si complicano...spero di ricordare queste differenze....


Magari me le traduci in italiano?
Non vorrei averle interpretate male(mi riferisco alle ultime due)...

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

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Aug 3, 2004, 9:27:19 AM8/3/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:52:48 GMT, Max wrote:

>> If I were at the beach, I'd go swimming.
>> If I was at the beach, I didn't go swimming.
>> If I was at the beach, I don't remember it.
>
> Le cose si complicano...spero di ricordare queste differenze....
>
> Magari me le traduci in italiano?
> Non vorrei averle interpretate male(mi riferisco alle ultime due)...

I'll try, but my Italian/subjunctive isn't all that good.

Se fossi alla spiaggia, nuoterei.
Se ci sono stato alla spiaggia, no ho nuotato.
Se ci sono stato alla spiaggia, non lo ricordo.

Although there's an element of conjecture in the opening dependent clause
of all three sentences, the thought-process, the logic of the independent
clause that follows is different.

The first is pure conjecture.
The second and third are referring to "likely" past activities, and there
is less conjecture that I was actually at the beach.

You could almost infer that the conversation prior to the speaker uttering
the last two sentences went something like :
"Did you have a good time at the beach? Did you go swimming?"
"If I was at the beach, I don't remember it/I didn't go swimming."
(So I must have been very very drunk not to remember. :)

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

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Aug 3, 2004, 9:39:16 AM8/3/04
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I agree with this; Max, you can read a lot of posts in newsgroups that are
not language-oriented, and find a million mistakes. They are not the place
to learn correct grammar, etc., but they're good for practise and for
gaining the confidence to express yourself better in the language.

Take everything you read with a gain of salt; don't be baffled by
constructions such as:

"The problem is no one has have been able to see a moon near the
planet-like object", which you posted in another thread, and which is most
likely just an editorial error.

There will be examples such as:
"I should have went out when I had the chance"
"I didn't want to loose (s.b.: "lose") my place in line"; (this
is common)
"If I'd of known (or even: "I'd of knew"; s.b.: "I'd have
known"); etc. because a lot of madrelingue don't know their own language
all that well.

The trick is (and it's a great sense of accomplishment) to have arrived at
a point where you can identify the errors in the native speaker's post.

Spend some time reading posts; if you find something that doesn't make
sense according to what you've learned, it's probably an error. If you're
confused, post the phrase here; we'll be sure to point out the error or
clarify it! :)

Sebapop

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Aug 3, 2004, 10:30:01 AM8/3/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:27:19 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo wrote:

>I'll try, but my Italian/subjunctive isn't all that good.

Let me help you out. :)

>Se fossi alla spiaggia, nuoterei.
>Se ci sono stato alla spiaggia, no ho nuotato.
>Se ci sono stato alla spiaggia, non lo ricordo.

If I were at the beach, I'd go swimming.
Se fossi in spiaggia, nuoterei.

If I was at the beach, I didn't go swimming.

Se sono stato in spiaggia, non ho nuotato

If I was at the beach, I don't remember it.

Se sono stato in spiaggia, non me lo ricordo.

Sebastiano

Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo

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Aug 3, 2004, 10:42:07 AM8/3/04
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Thanks. I knew it was something like that! :)

Sebapop

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Aug 3, 2004, 10:46:41 AM8/3/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:42:07 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo wrote:

>Thanks. I knew it was something like that! :)

^_^

Sebastiano

Max

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Aug 3, 2004, 1:19:12 PM8/3/04
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Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo affermò che:


> Spend some time reading posts; if you find something that doesn't make
> sense according to what you've learned, it's probably an error. If you're
> confused, post the phrase here; we'll be sure to point out the error or
> clarify it! :)


Of course, but I'd expect to find a correct grammar in a site as Voanews that
is made to help who is learning English.
It is even made in special English.

In a ng I'd have been more prepared to find some mistakes, but in
that site not, I trusted in it! :-)

Chissà che ho scritto.... :-)

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 3, 2004, 1:29:45 PM8/3/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:19:12 GMT, Max wrote:

> Of course, but I'd expect to find a correct grammar in a site as Voanews that
> is made to help who is learning English.
> It is even made in special English.
>
> In a ng I'd have been more prepared to find some mistakes, but in
> that site not, I trusted in it! :-)

Well that makes sense. But even the *experts* can make mistakes. (Trust
*me* on that one!) :-))

> Chissà che ho scritto.... :-)

[..Voanews that is made to help someone who is learning English.]
[...find some mistakes, but not in that site. I trusted (in) it! :-) ]

jonny

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Aug 3, 2004, 2:15:52 PM8/3/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:27:19 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee - aka Beppo
<joe...@verizonnot.net> wrote:

>I'll try, but my Italian/subjunctive isn't all that good.

Tell me about it. I have real problems with this aspect of the Italian
language. Simply knowing when I'm in subjunctive mood is my biggest
problem.

jonny

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Aug 3, 2004, 2:15:53 PM8/3/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:52:47 GMT, Max <maxf...@despammed.com> wrote:

>jonny affermň che:
>
>> On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:09:59 GMT, Max <maxf...@despammed.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Then I think I'll use "that" :-))))
>>>
>>>
>>>> Buon lavoro e buona fortuna!
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks for everything!
>>>
>>>p.s.
>>>
>>>I wait for your corrections in this message! :-)
>>
>> Max, dovresti scrivere in inglese piů spesso, č meglio del mio
>> italiano e scrivo in italiano tutto il tempo :)
>
>
>Se scrivo piů spesso uscirebbero le magagne,

Scusi Max, ma non ho capito questo frase :(
If I write more often .....?..... (there would be flaws??)

>finchč mi limito a pochissime
>parole posso anche essere fortunato... :-)

Sě, ma non fa niente se fai errori, faccio tanto (come sai :) ma con
l'aiuto di altri in questo group (incluso tu), sto migliorando.

>Per quanto riguarda il tuo italiano, in questo post non hai fatto errori, forse
>solo "migliore" al posto di "meglio" sarebbe meglio :-)
>

Grazie per la correzione, abbiamo solo uno "better" in inglese.
Quando si usa "meglio"? di prima e dopo un verbo?

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 3, 2004, 2:26:46 PM8/3/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:15:52 GMT, jonny wrote:

> Tell me about it. I have real problems with this aspect of the Italian
> language. Simply knowing when I'm in subjunctive mood is my biggest
> problem.

So you get into a subjunctive funk too? Hm. I'm not alone.

Max

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Aug 4, 2004, 2:50:41 AM8/4/04
to
jonny affermň che:

>>
>>Se scrivo piů spesso uscirebbero le magagne,
>
> Scusi Max,

Scusa Max.

Dammi pure del tu! :-)


> ma non ho capito questo frase :(
> If I write more often .....?..... (there would be flaws??)

Se scrivo 3 parole probabilmente non faccio errori, se ne scrivo 10 forse ne
faccio 3-4, ma se scrivo una decina di frasi, gli errori non si conterebbero
:-)

If I wrote more often I'd make more mistakes.


>>finchč mi limito a pochissime
>>parole posso anche essere fortunato... :-)
>
> Sě, ma non fa niente se fai errori,

se fai alcuni/degli errori(some mistakes)

faccio tanto (come sai :)

ne faccio tanti


You are right, but I am still too slow!


> ma con
> l'aiuto di altri in questo group (incluso tu), sto migliorando.

incluso *te*


> Grazie per la correzione, abbiamo solo uno "better" in inglese.
> Quando si usa "meglio"?

Credo che il problema sta nel fatto che sia "bene" che "buono" corrispondono
a good.

comparativo di good --> better
comp. di bene --> meglio
comp. di buono -> migliore

Nella tua frase: "Il tuo inglese č migliore...("piů buono"=better)"

Esempio contrario: "Oggi mi sento meglio("piů bene"=better, ma č solo per farti
capire, in italiano "piů bene" č sbagliato, come "more good", credo...)

Ciao.


Max

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Aug 4, 2004, 2:50:42 AM8/4/04
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Joey DoWop Dee affermň che:

> On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:15:52 GMT, jonny wrote:
>
>> Tell me about it. I have real problems with this aspect of the Italian
>> language. Simply knowing when I'm in subjunctive mood is my biggest
>> problem.
>
> So you get into a subjunctive funk too? Hm. I'm not alone.
>


I think many italians too are afraid of the subjunctive :-)
You don't worry! :-))


Sebapop

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Aug 4, 2004, 4:46:07 AM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 06:50:41 GMT, Max wrote:

>> Sě, ma non fa niente se fai errori,
>
>se fai alcuni/degli errori(some mistakes)
>
>faccio tanto (come sai :)
>
>ne faccio tanti

There's nothing wrong with "non fa niente se fai errori".

Sebastiano

Max

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Aug 4, 2004, 6:17:29 AM8/4/04
to
Sebapop affermò che:

>
> There's nothing wrong with "non fa niente se fai errori".

Hai ragione, sicuramente può andare e non è un errore....ma mi suonava meglio
inserendo "degli"...
Ammetto però di aver cercato il pelo nell'uovo(a proposito: qual'è l'equivalente
inglese di questa frase fatta? L'avrò letto sicuramente su questo NG....).


Ciao.

FB

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Aug 4, 2004, 7:10:06 AM8/4/04
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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:30:01 +0200, Sebapop wrote:

Pe' Mmax:

> If I were at the beach, I'd go swimming.
> Se fossi in spiaggia, nuoterei.

Were ==> congiuntivo (==> "were" per tutte le persone).


> If I was at the beach, I didn't go swimming.
> Se sono stato in spiaggia, non ho nuotato

Magari questa č un pelo piů credibile, eh?

"If he was at the beach, I didn't notice him"

"Se č vero (come pare sia vero) che era in spiaggia, non l'ho notato"

O

"If I was rude, I apologise" ==> "Se sono stato scortese, mi scuso"

"If I were rude, I'd apologise" ==> "Se fossi scortese, mi scuserei"

"If I had been rude, I would/should have apologised" ==> "Se fossi stato
scortese, mi sarei scusato"

"If I had been rude, I couldn't remember it" ==> "Se ero stato scortese,
non lo rammentavo" oppure

"Se fossi stato scortese, non potrei rammentarlo (ero ubriaco...)"


Niente di speciale: uno č indicativo, uno č congiuntivo; la stessa
differenza esiste in italiano, solo che l'italiano ha una coniugazione piů
estesa.


Ciao, FB
--
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura"
that is "The Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi on it.cultura.linguistica - http://snipurl.com/7ryg)

FB

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Aug 4, 2004, 7:14:42 AM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 06:50:42 GMT, Max wrote:

>> On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:15:52 GMT, jonny wrote:
>>
>>> Tell me about it. I have real problems with this aspect of the Italian
>>> language. Simply knowing when I'm in subjunctive mood is my biggest
>>> problem.
>>
>> So you get into a subjunctive funk too? Hm. I'm not alone.
>
> I think many italians too are afraid of the subjunctive :-)

It's a matter of ear, rather than of grammar. Most of the time, when
subjunctive is required, indicative is wrong *. It is mainly used to
express something more or less far from truth in subordinate clauses.


> You don't worry! :-))

I think that "you" make your encouragement sound like a threat.


* I've been thinking about using the definite article before "subjunctive"
and "indicative", but couldn't make up my mind.


Bye, FB
--
"Nasalization is just a part of life"
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

FB

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Aug 4, 2004, 7:19:06 AM8/4/04
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On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:10:01 GMT, Max wrote:

> FB affermò che:
>
>>> In altri termini: libri, DVD
>>
>> Utilissime entrambe le cose. Anche la pronuncia è importante, secondo me.
>
>
> Per me guardare DVD significa anche lavorare sulla pronuncia...no?

Intendevo dire la tua pronuncia. I dvd sono utilissimi anche a quello.


> Qui si.... ma in quali ng inglesi troverei la stessa disponibilità che trovo su
> i.c.l.i ? :-)

Direi di sì. Su alt.usage.english sono molto disponibili, ma è mooolto
grande ed è difficile separare gli interventi ottimi (credo ci siano anche
professori universitari, o almeno uno) da quelli medi e da quelli di gente
comune, quindi non sempre affidabili. Io mi rivolgo a quel gruppo solo per
questioni complicate o che non ho chiarito altrove.


> Probabilmente sorvolerebbero sui miei errori

Temo di sì. A me non fanno notare i miei errori, e non hanno torto: sono
troppi gli stranieri lì, e sono troppi i filoni, benché esista il fratello
gemello di a.u.e.: a.e.u., che va meno di moda.


> e se ne facessi di talmente gravi da comprometterne la comprensione con tutta probabilità mi ignorerebbero.

Basta pensarci un po' per evitare errori grossissimi.


Ciao, FB
--
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

Sebapop

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Aug 4, 2004, 7:30:07 AM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:10:06 GMT, FB wrote:

>Magari questa č un pelo piů credibile, eh?

Vabbč, basta far finta che la frase venga detta da qualcuno con
problemi di memoria, magari causati dall'alcol. ;)

Sebastiano

Sebapop

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Aug 4, 2004, 7:34:10 AM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:17:29 GMT, Max wrote:

>> There's nothing wrong with "non fa niente se fai errori".

>Hai ragione, sicuramente può andare e non è un errore....ma mi suonava meglio
>inserendo "degli"...

A me suonano bene entrambe.

>Ammetto però di aver cercato il pelo nell'uovo(a proposito: qual'è l'equivalente
>inglese di questa frase fatta? L'avrò letto sicuramente su questo NG....).

Perché, "to look for the hair in the egg", non va bene? ^_^

Io, per dare quel significato, uso il verbo "to nitpick".

Sebastiano

jonny

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Aug 4, 2004, 9:05:05 AM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 06:50:41 GMT, Max <maxf...@despammed.com> wrote:

>jonny affermň che:
>
>
>
>>>
>>>Se scrivo piů spesso uscirebbero le magagne,
>>
>> Scusi Max,
>
>Scusa Max.
>
>Dammi pure del tu! :-)

I meant to, sorry. It was the "i" at the end of "scusi" that confused
me.

>
>> ma non ho capito questo frase :(
>> If I write more often .....?..... (there would be flaws??)
>
>Se scrivo 3 parole probabilmente non faccio errori, se ne scrivo 10 forse ne
>faccio 3-4, ma se scrivo una decina di frasi, gli errori non si conterebbero
>:-)
>
>If I wrote more often I'd make more mistakes.

See!, why didn't you write that in the first place? ;)


>
>>>finchč mi limito a pochissime
>>>parole posso anche essere fortunato... :-)
>>
>> Sě, ma non fa niente se fai errori,
>
>se fai alcuni/degli errori(some mistakes)
>
>faccio tanto (come sai :)
>
>ne faccio tanti
>
>
>You are right, but I am still too slow!

Same here. It takes me ages to write my bad Italian.


>
>> ma con
>> l'aiuto di altri in questo group (incluso tu), sto migliorando.
>
>incluso *te*

I've come to the conclusion that there are far too many "you's" in
your language :)


>
>> Grazie per la correzione, abbiamo solo uno "better" in inglese.
>> Quando si usa "meglio"?
>
>Credo che il problema sta nel fatto che sia "bene" che "buono" corrispondono
>a good.
>
>comparativo di good --> better
>comp. di bene --> meglio
>comp. di buono -> migliore
>
>Nella tua frase: "Il tuo inglese č migliore...("piů buono"=better)"
>
>Esempio contrario: "Oggi mi sento meglio("piů bene"=better, ma č solo per farti
>capire, in italiano "piů bene" č sbagliato, come "more good", credo...)

Hmm, that's about as clear as mud to me <g> I'll have to study this in
more detail.
Thanks.

FB

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Aug 4, 2004, 9:33:24 AM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:05:05 GMT, jonny wrote:

> Same here.

I thought it was an American expression. Anyhow, it won't translate
literally into Italian: don't do like that American actor who, while being
interviewed in Italy, commented: "lo stesou qui" ("lo stesso qui" ==> "the
same here"). (smiling face)


Bye, FB
--
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 4, 2004, 9:47:31 AM8/4/04
to
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:14:42 GMT, FB wrote:

>> You don't worry! :-))
>
> I think that "you" make your encouragement sound like a threat.

Not really. Sometimes when you want to reassure someone, you can include
the pronoun "you", although it usually follows the verb:

Don't you worry: I'll take care of everything.
Don't you even think about it; it's all taken care of.

Even though its more common for "you" to follow the verb, it's not wrong to
place it before.

"You don't worry about any of it. We're fixing it right now."

> * I've been thinking about using the definite article before "subjunctive"
> and "indicative", but couldn't make up my mind.

Make your mind up this way: use it. It's more natural.
"Most of the time, when *the* subjunctive is required, *the* indicative is
wrong."

jonny

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Aug 4, 2004, 9:54:36 AM8/4/04
to
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:33:24 GMT, FB <fam.baldu...@tin.it>
wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:05:05 GMT, jonny wrote:
>
>> Same here.
>
>I thought it was an American expression.

It might originate from the US, I don't know (have you been to this
country BTW?) but it is used over here. We've always had plenty of
American TV here so maybe it crept in that way.

>Anyhow, it won't translate literally into Italian: don't do like that American actor who, while being >
>interviewed in Italy, commented: "lo stesou qui" ("lo stesso qui" ==> "the
>same here"). (smiling face)

It's the same for "per niente" I didn't know the meaning of that until
you explain it to me. Whilst we're on the subject what's the meaning
of "ma va" ?

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 4, 2004, 9:55:10 AM8/4/04
to
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:05:05 GMT, jonny wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 06:50:41 GMT, Max <maxf...@despammed.com> wrote:
>>> Grazie per la correzione, abbiamo solo uno "better" in inglese.
>>> Quando si usa "meglio"?
>>
>>Credo che il problema sta nel fatto che sia "bene" che "buono" corrispondono
>>a good.
>>
>>comparativo di good --> better
>>comp. di bene --> meglio
>>comp. di buono -> migliore
>>
>>Nella tua frase: "Il tuo inglese è migliore...("più buono"=better)"
>>
>>Esempio contrario: "Oggi mi sento meglio("più bene"=better, ma è solo per farti
>>capire, in italiano "più bene" è sbagliato, come "more good", credo...)

>
> Hmm, that's about as clear as mud to me <g> I'll have to study this in
> more detail.
> Thanks.

I have the same problem, for the same reason, Jonny. It doesn't even help
to think about "meglio" being the comparative of "bene"("well"), not "good"
because it doesn't always correspond.

I feel good. (In this case we use "good" instead of "well")
I feel better. ("meglio" in Italian)

My health is good.
My health is better. ("migliore")

Wanna try Spanish instead? I understand all you have to do to speak Spanish
is add -o to the end of any English word. :)

(Just kidding; I'd never give up on Italian.)

FB

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Aug 4, 2004, 10:15:51 AM8/4/04
to
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:47:31 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee wrote:

> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:14:42 GMT, FB wrote:
>
>>> You don't worry! :-))
>>
>> I think that "you" make your encouragement sound like a threat.
>
> Not really. Sometimes when you want to reassure someone, you can include
> the pronoun "you", although it usually follows the verb:

Oh, I see. Denghiu.


> Make your mind up this way: use it.

As simple as that? I thought you'd say something like "use it on Monday,
Wednesday, Friday and Sunday; don't use it on Tuesday, Thursday and
Saturday, BUT never use it while you're eating pizza or eggplants".


> "Most of the time, when *the* subjunctive is required, *the* indicative is
> wrong."

O.K., I've made it up.

Sebapop

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Aug 4, 2004, 10:22:41 AM8/4/04
to
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:54:36 GMT, jonny wrote:

>Whilst we're on the subject what's the meaning
>of "ma va" ?

"really?"
Sinonimo di "davvero?"
Molto informale.

Con lo stesso significato puoi usare "sul serio?", "ma va?",
"davvero?", "ma davvero?, "ma dai?", e probabilmente altri.

Sebastiano

FB

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Aug 4, 2004, 10:27:22 AM8/4/04
to

Anche "Ma va!", ovvero "Non è affatto vero/Non ci credo", e "ma va?": "che
scoperta?!". E chi le traduce a Jonny, ora?


Ciao, FB
--
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri)

Sebapop

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Aug 4, 2004, 10:38:04 AM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:27:22 GMT, FB wrote:

>Anche "Ma va!", ovvero "Non č affatto vero/Non ci credo", e "ma va?": "che


>scoperta?!". E chi le traduce a Jonny, ora?

Anche se il tono di entrambe č comunque interrogativo. E io avrei
probabilmente invertito i segni di punteggiatura.

La prima espressione finisce con un tono ascendente, tipo un "ma
vaaa?" La seconda ha un tono meno ascendente, "ma vaa?". La prima č
piů acuta.
Sono differenze difficilissime da spiegare senza audio. E ci sono
anche in inglese.
Pensa a "really", quando viene pronunciato normalmente, come domanda,
e quando invece lo pronunci come esclamazione, che usi - ad esempio -
per rispondere ad un bambino che ha combinato una marachella.

The kid found some money on the bench in the garden.

kid: Mommy, I found a 10$ bill on the bench!
mom: Really?

The kid stole the money from his mom's purse and the mom knows it.

kid: Mommy, I found a 10$ bill on the bench!
mom: Really!

La stessa identica cosa. Ma se non hai idea di cosa intendo con i due
"really", č dura fartlo capire senz'audio.

Sebastiano

jonny

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Aug 4, 2004, 1:02:26 PM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:54:36 GMT, jonny <j...@jj.jj> wrote:

>until you explain it to me

until you explained it to me.

jonny

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Aug 4, 2004, 1:03:29 PM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:22:41 +0200, Sebapop <sebapo...@libero.it>
wrote:

Thanks, that makes sense.

jonny

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Aug 4, 2004, 1:02:28 PM8/4/04
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On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:55:10 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee
<joe...@verizonnot.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:05:05 GMT, jonny wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 06:50:41 GMT, Max <maxf...@despammed.com> wrote:
>>>> Grazie per la correzione, abbiamo solo uno "better" in inglese.
>>>> Quando si usa "meglio"?
>>>
>>>Credo che il problema sta nel fatto che sia "bene" che "buono" corrispondono
>>>a good.
>>>
>>>comparativo di good --> better
>>>comp. di bene --> meglio
>>>comp. di buono -> migliore
>>>
>>>Nella tua frase: "Il tuo inglese è migliore...("più buono"=better)"
>>>
>>>Esempio contrario: "Oggi mi sento meglio("più bene"=better, ma è solo per farti
>>>capire, in italiano "più bene" è sbagliato, come "more good", credo...)
>>
>> Hmm, that's about as clear as mud to me <g> I'll have to study this in
>> more detail.
>> Thanks.
>
>I have the same problem, for the same reason, Jonny. It doesn't even help
>to think about "meglio" being the comparative of "bene"("well"), not "good"
>because it doesn't always correspond.

Exactly!

>I feel good. (In this case we use "good" instead of "well")
>I feel better. ("meglio" in Italian)
>
>My health is good.
>My health is better. ("migliore")

>Wanna try Spanish instead? I understand all you have to do to speak Spanish
>is add -o to the end of any English word. :)

If only it was that simple :)

>(Just kidding; I'd never give up on Italian.)

One can never predict the future but at the moment I'm fairly
committed too.


Lorenzo

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Aug 5, 2004, 7:51:31 AM8/5/04
to
"FB" <fam.baldu...@tin.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1wrhd3dcotwyz.a...@40tude.net...

> Anche "Ma va!", ovvero "Non è affatto vero/Non ci credo", e "ma va?": "che
> scoperta?!". E chi le traduce a Jonny, ora?

Questi però sono significati che vengono fuori dall'utilizzo in modo ironico
dell'espressione.

Il modo di dire in sè significa stupore, poi ovviamente detto con un
particolare tono può significare completa mancanza di stupore.
Questo comunque si applica a qualsiasi tipo di frase (anche un "è
bellissimo" detto in un certo modo può significare "fa schifo").

"Ma va" è comunque indubbiamente una forma usata abbastanza frequentemente
nel suo significato ironico.

--
Lorenzo Castelli
E-Mail: gcas...@racine.ra.it


ValerioZ

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Aug 5, 2004, 8:48:13 AM8/5/04
to

>>Ammetto però di aver cercato il pelo nell'uovo(a proposito: qual'è l'equivalente
>>inglese di questa frase fatta? L'avrò letto sicuramente su questo NG....).
>
>
> Perché, "to look for the hair in the egg", non va bene? ^_^
>
> Io, per dare quel significato, uso il verbo "to nitpick".
Il mio Babylon ti da ragione! =^)
>
> Sebastiano
Ciao
ValerioZ

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 5, 2004, 9:09:57 AM8/5/04
to

Yes, that's the connotation; a closer equivalent in English is "to split
hairs."

Max

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Aug 5, 2004, 1:08:21 PM8/5/04
to
Sebapop affermò che:

> Io, per dare quel significato, uso il verbo "to nitpick".


Era quello, e mi sa che l'ho sentito proprio da te.

Grazie.

Sebapop

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Aug 5, 2004, 1:44:45 PM8/5/04
to
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:08:21 GMT, Max wrote:

>Era quello, e mi sa che l'ho sentito proprio da te.

Google dice di no. :) È la prima volta che lo uso su ICLing. L'ha
usato Joey non molto tempo fa, rispondendo a te (esercizi di
traduzione 18) E poi c'è un vecchio post del 99. :)

Sebastiano

jonny

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Aug 5, 2004, 2:57:08 PM8/5/04
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On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:44:45 +0200, Sebapop <sebapo...@libero.it>
wrote:

I love posts like this. Ones that I can understand straight away. It
makes me realise that I'm getting somewhere.This sentence doesn't
translate directly into English though "non molto tempo fa" but It
must mean "Not so long ago". I like "fa" for ago, daft thing to say I
know. I was watching Italian TV and I heard "non tanti anni fa" this
is about the only complete sentence that I've ever understood <g>
reading is a lot easier than hearing.

Sebapop

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Aug 5, 2004, 3:40:02 PM8/5/04
to
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:57:08 GMT, jonny wrote:

>I love posts like this. Ones that I can understand straight away. It
>makes me realise that I'm getting somewhere.

Great! :)

>This sentence doesn't
>translate directly into English though "non molto tempo fa" but It
>must mean "Not so long ago".

Yeah, you got it. :)

>I like "fa" for ago, daft thing to say I
>know. I was watching Italian TV and I heard "non tanti anni fa" this
>is about the only complete sentence that I've ever understood <g>
>reading is a lot easier than hearing.

Tell me 'bout it! I hate it when I don't understand a line and I have
to rewatch it. And sometimes, when I finally got the meaning, I still
don't catch the joke, 'cause I know nothing about US sports or US
politicians or whatever.

Sebastiano

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 5, 2004, 3:46:43 PM8/5/04
to
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:57:08 GMT, jonny wrote:
>
> I love posts like this. Ones that I can understand straight away. It
> makes me realise that I'm getting somewhere.

You may not believe this, (I'm far from an expert in Italian) but I've
noticed a marked improvement in your Italian in the past weeks.

> I like "fa" for ago, daft thing to say I
> know. I was watching Italian TV and I heard "non tanti anni fa" this
> is about the only complete sentence that I've ever understood <g>
> reading is a lot easier than hearing.

I know what you mean (but not why, either) :) The "fa" construction is one
of my favorites.

jonny

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Aug 5, 2004, 4:17:38 PM8/5/04
to
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:40:02 +0200, Sebapop <sebapo...@libero.it>
wrote:

Heh, I don't understand any lines! :) just mainly words at the moment.

jonny

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Aug 5, 2004, 4:18:42 PM8/5/04
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On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:46:43 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee
<joe...@verizonnot.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:57:08 GMT, jonny wrote:
>>
>> I love posts like this. Ones that I can understand straight away. It
>> makes me realise that I'm getting somewhere.

Thanks Joey! I can say, hand on hart that my Italian is the worst in
this group, but I'm not bothered about it, I'm not looking for
sympathy, I'm enjoying learning, well, most of the time :)

>You may not believe this, (I'm far from an expert in Italian) but I've
>noticed a marked improvement in your Italian in the past weeks.
>
>> I like "fa" for ago, daft thing to say I
>> know. I was watching Italian TV and I heard "non tanti anni fa" this
>> is about the only complete sentence that I've ever understood <g>
>> reading is a lot easier than hearing.
>
>I know what you mean (but not why, either) :) The "fa" construction is one
>of my favorites.

Weird eh?

Sebapop

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Aug 5, 2004, 4:20:13 PM8/5/04
to
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:17:38 GMT, jonny wrote:

>Heh, I don't understand any lines! :) just mainly words at the moment.

Tu sei agli inizi. Io ho iniziato a studiare inglese quando avevo
circa nove anni. Ma ho ripreso a migliorare nel 1999/2000, quando ho
inizato a guardare i film in inglese.

Sebastiano

FB

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Aug 5, 2004, 4:34:50 PM8/5/04
to
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:40:02 +0200, Sebapop wrote:

> Tell me 'bout it! I hate it when I don't understand a line and I have
> to rewatch it.

There's not much to understand about lines... (faccina uhm-'sti-ragazzi...)


Bye, FB

FB

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Aug 5, 2004, 4:38:20 PM8/5/04
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On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:46:43 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee wrote:

> I know what you mean (but not why, either) :) The "fa" construction is one
> of my favorites.

Whadabout the "orsono" construction? You can only use it with plural time
expressions: it retains the original meaning, or sono (ora *sono*), I
guess.

"Un anno fa" ==> SĚ
"Due anni fa" ==> SĚ

"Un anno orsono" ==> NOOO
"Due anni orsono" ==> SĚ (i.e. "two years now-they-are")


Bye, FB
--
"Nasalization is just a part of life"
(Joey DoWop Dee on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese)

jonny

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Aug 5, 2004, 8:00:32 PM8/5/04
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On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:20:13 +0200, Sebapop <sebapo...@libero.it>
wrote:

If my Italian is anywhere near as good as your written English in 4yrs
I'll be very pleased indeed. You're right, I've only just started but
I can't help being impatient. I want to know more now, but I keep
telling myself "patience grasshopper, it will come clear with time".
(Kung Fu 70s TV show, in case you where wondering <g>)

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 5, 2004, 8:26:38 PM8/5/04
to

Grasshopper! Someone else know "grasshopper!" I knew there was a reason I
liked you! Great program.

Sebapop

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Aug 6, 2004, 4:25:31 AM8/6/04
to
On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 00:00:32 GMT, jonny wrote:

>If my Italian is anywhere near as good as your written English in 4yrs
>I'll be very pleased indeed. You're right, I've only just started but
>I can't help being impatient. I want to know more now,

Yeah, I know the feeling. You'll improve, don't you worry. And you'll
have to travel to Italy, 'cause you need to "taste" the language, and
the food. ^_^ Some Risotto col Tastasal and Pearà for you too. Hey,
Joey, don't you worry, I'm not giving away your portion.
BTW, Joey, have you ever been to the Kabul Cafè?

Address: 265 West 54th St (Between Broadway and Eighth avenues)

They told me it's great. The meatballs are delicious and they have
Chianti wine.
I forgot to go there. Curse me! :)
Next time I won't miss it. And I have to go to Nathan's (I forgot that
too).

> but I keep
>telling myself "patience grasshopper, it will come clear with time".
>(Kung Fu 70s TV show, in case you where wondering <g>)

Yeah, I was wondering. ^_^

Btw, here's the show:

www.imdb.com/title/tt0068093

And the first season on DVD:

www.dvdsoon.com/show-title-details.xml?uid=106220

It's a Canadian website. The price is 42.98 CAD (about 27 Euro). No
shipping fee.
I'm tempted, but I have been spending way too much. I'll wait. :)

Sebastiano

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 6, 2004, 11:09:55 AM8/6/04
to
On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:25:31 +0200, Sebapop wrote:

> BTW, Joey, have you ever been to the Kabul Cafč?

No, that's a new one for me. I have a client near there next Friday...
maybe I'll get to try it for lunch.



> Address: 265 West 54th St (Between Broadway and Eighth avenues)
>
> They told me it's great. The meatballs are delicious and they have
> Chianti wine.
> I forgot to go there. Curse me! :)
> Next time I won't miss it. And I have to go to Nathan's (I forgot that
> too).

Ya gotta have at least ONE Nathan's hot dog (preferably two or more) and
then ride the Cyclone. woooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Sebapop

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Aug 6, 2004, 11:30:02 AM8/6/04
to
On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:09:55 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee wrote:

>No, that's a new one for me. I have a client near there next Friday...
>maybe I'll get to try it for lunch.

If you ever go there to eat, let me know if it's as good as I have
been told. :)

>Ya gotta have at least ONE Nathan's hot dog (preferably two or more) and
>then ride the Cyclone. woooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Ho uno stomaco di ferro. :)
I'll do it. :)

Sebastiano

jonny

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Aug 6, 2004, 1:52:23 PM8/6/04
to
On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 00:26:38 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee
<joe...@verizonnot.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 00:00:32 GMT, jonny wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:20:13 +0200, Sebapop <sebapo...@libero.it>
>> wrote:
>
>
>> If my Italian is anywhere near as good as your written English in 4yrs
>> I'll be very pleased indeed. You're right, I've only just started but
>> I can't help being impatient. I want to know more now, but I keep
>> telling myself "patience grasshopper, it will come clear with time".
>> (Kung Fu 70s TV show, in case you where wondering <g>)
>
>Grasshopper! Someone else know "grasshopper!" I knew there was a reason I
>liked you! Great program.

Don't tell me that you used to carry a teapot with the inside of your
forearms as well? <G>

Joey DoWop Dee

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Aug 6, 2004, 3:22:06 PM8/6/04
to

I am drinking the tea as we speak. :)

Mike Brewer

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Sep 3, 2004, 5:56:46 PM9/3/04
to

"FB" <fam.baldu...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:d22x0kwxn6co$.1n75zewd9h4ho$.dlg@40tude.net...

> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:46:43 GMT, Joey DoWop Dee wrote:
>
> > I know what you mean (but not why, either) :) The "fa" construction is
one
> > of my favorites.
>
> Whadabout the "orsono" construction? You can only use it with plural time
> expressions: it retains the original meaning, or sono (ora *sono*), I
> guess.
>
> "Un anno fa" ==> SĚ
> "Due anni fa" ==> SĚ
>
> "Un anno orsono" ==> NOOO
> "Due anni orsono" ==> SĚ (i.e. "two years now-they-are")
>
>

'Un anno or č' ? I seem to have come across 'Or č un anno' ?
What about 'Orsono due anni' ?

Mike


FB

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Sep 3, 2004, 8:13:59 PM9/3/04
to
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:56:46 +0100, Mike Brewer wrote:

> "FB" <fam.baldu...@tin.it> wrote in message
> news:d22x0kwxn6co$.1n75zewd9h4ho$.dlg@40tude.net...

>> Whadabout the "orsono" construction? You can only use it with plural time
>> expressions: it retains the original meaning, or sono (ora *sono*), I
>> guess.
>>
>> "Un anno fa" ==> SĚ
>> "Due anni fa" ==> SĚ
>>
>> "Un anno orsono" ==> NOOO
>> "Due anni orsono" ==> SĚ (i.e. "two years now-they-are")
>
> 'Un anno or č' ?

I don't think that's correct.


> I seem to have come across 'Or č un anno' ?

That should be quite right.


> What about 'Orsono due anni' ?

QUOTE (dizionario Zingarelli 2004)
"orsono" o (lett.) "or sono"
[comp. di or(a) e sono, terza pers. pl. del pres. indic. di essere; av.
1613]
avv.
* Indica la distanza di tempo dal passato al momento attuale (per un numero
di anni, mesi o sim. superiore a uno): due secoli orsono; tre anni or sono;
le signore ch'io conobbi or sono dodici anni (FOSCOLO). SIN. Addietro, fa.
UNQUOTE


Bye, FB
--
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)

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