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There's a spider in the bath

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IdP

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Feb 11, 2022, 4:34:01 AM2/11/22
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Che "part of speech" è "there" nelle seguenti frasi?
"There’s a spider in the bath."
"There isn't much time left."
"There are 24 teams competing in the tournament."
"Are there any other suggestions?"

Secondo il dizionario Macmillan, si tratterebbe di un pronome.
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/there

Lo stesso sostiene il Collins:

PRONOUN
There is used as the subject of the verb 'be' to say that something
exists or does not exist, or to draw attention to it.
"There are roadworks between the two towns."
"Are there some countries that have been able to tackle these problems
successfully?"
"There were differences of opinion, he added, on very basic issues."
"There's nothing in this room; there's no bed, and not a single shelf."
"There's no way we can afford to buy a house at the moment."
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/there


Io, viceversa, avrei pensato a un avverbio, come nella classificazione
italiana del "ci" usato insieme al verbo "essere" per indicare
l'esistenza o presenza di qualcosa. Spiega la grammatica Treccani
che...
'Sempre con valore locativo, può accompagnarsi al verbo essere, per
significare l’esistenza di persone o cose il trovarsi di queste in un
determinato ambiente'
"Ci sono moltissime specie di animali e di piante"
"C’è qualcuno in casa?"
"Spero che ci sia pane per tutti"
"C’è ancora tempo"
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/ci_%28La-grammatica-italiana%29/


Il Lexico Oxford e il Cambridge concordano sulla funzione avverbiale di
"there" in questo tipo di frasi.

ADVERB
usually there is/are
Used to indicate the fact or existence of something.
"there's a restaurant around the corner"
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/there


there adverb (INTRODUCING SUBJECT)
used to introduce the subject of a sentence, especially before the
verbs be, seem, and appear:
"There's someone on the phone for you."
"There's no doubt who is the best candidate."
"I took out my wallet but there was no money in it."
"By the time I got back, there was no food left."
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/there?q=there_1



Terza possibilità: secondo Shurley, blog grammaticale, "there" è un
"expletive".

Just when you think you’ve got it all figured out, the word there shows
up in a sentence as an *expletive*. If you’re not familiar with this
term, allow me to explain. An expletive is an “extra word” that is not
grammatically related to the rest of the sentence. Here’s an example
sentence. Read it carefully and locate the simple subject:

There are some pencils in my desk drawer.

The word there is not the subject of the sentence; the simple subject
is pencils. There is being used as an expletive and serves to get the
sentence moving. Any time a sentence begins with the word there, the
true subject will be farther on in the sentence, so don’t be fooled!

Another way to determine if the word there is being used as an
expletive is to rewrite the sentence without using it. If you can
rewrite it without losing any meaning, you will know you’re correct.
Notice how the sentence meaning does not change when I leave out the
word there:

Some pencils are in my desk drawer.

https://blog.shurley.com/blog/2019/5/30/grammar-time-what-part-of-speech-is-the-word-there


Anche:

Expletive Constructions
"[A] device for emphasizing a particular word (whether the normal
complement or the normal subject) is the so-called expletive
construction, in which we begin the sentence with 'It is' or 'There
is.'
https://www.thoughtco.com/expletive-grammar-term-1690694



Per un elenco delle Parts of Speech:

Nouns
Articles
Verbs and Verbals
Pronouns
Adjectives
Adverbs
Conjunctions
Interjections
Expletives

https://www.athabascau.ca/write-site/english-grammar-handbook/basic-grammar/index.html

Kiuhnm

unread,
Feb 12, 2022, 8:58:27 PM2/12/22
to
On 11/02/2022 10:33, IdP wrote:
> Che "part of speech" è "there" nelle seguenti frasi?
> "There’s a spider in the bath."
> "There isn't much time left."
> "There are 24 teams competing in the tournament."
> "Are there any other suggestions?"
>
> Secondo il dizionario Macmillan, si tratterebbe di un pronome.
> https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/there
>
> Lo stesso sostiene il Collins:
>
> PRONOUN
> There is used as the subject of the verb 'be' to say that something
> exists or does not exist, or to draw attention to it.
> "There are roadworks between the two towns."
> "Are there some countries that have been able to tackle these problems
> successfully?"
> "There were differences of opinion, he added, on very basic issues."
> "There's nothing in this room; there's no bed, and not a single shelf."
> "There's no way we can afford to buy a house at the moment."
> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/there

Non ha senso.
Io interpreto "There's something" come "Something is somewhere" poiché
"there" è usato per indicare un luogo imprecisato, indicando quindi la
semplice esistenza.

> Terza possibilità: secondo Shurley, blog grammaticale, "there" è un
> "expletive".
>
> Just when you think you’ve got it all figured out, the word there shows
> up in a sentence as an *expletive*.   If you’re not familiar with this
> term, allow me to explain. An expletive is an “extra word” that is not
> grammatically related to the rest of the sentence.  Here’s an example
> sentence.  Read it carefully and locate the simple subject:
>
> There are some pencils in my desk drawer.
>
> The word there is not the subject of the sentence; the simple subject is
> pencils.  There is being used as an expletive and serves to get the
> sentence moving.  Any time a sentence begins with the word there, the
> true subject will be farther on in the sentence, so don’t be fooled!
>
> Another way to determine if the word there is being used as an expletive
> is to rewrite the sentence without using it.  If you can rewrite it
> without losing any meaning, you will know you’re correct. Notice how the
> sentence meaning does not change when I leave out the word there:
>
> Some pencils are in my desk drawer.

Basta rimuovere il complemento di luogo per capire che tale regola non
ha senso:
"There were lots of people"

--
Kiuhnm

Ho sempre avuto un /traguardo/ da raggiungere
ma anche un problema di /procrastinazione/.
Oggi ho raggiunto quella /meta/: inizio a
lavorare subito e mi dico che rimanderò più
tardi.

IdP

unread,
Feb 13, 2022, 10:53:59 AM2/13/22
to
Kiuhnm explained on 13/02/2022 :
> On 11/02/2022 10:33, IdP wrote:
>> Che "part of speech" è "there" nelle seguenti frasi?
>> "There’s a spider in the bath."
>> "There isn't much time left."
>> "There are 24 teams competing in the tournament."
>> "Are there any other suggestions?"
>>
>> Secondo il dizionario Macmillan, si tratterebbe di un pronome.
>> https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/there
>>
>> Lo stesso sostiene il Collins:
>>
>> PRONOUN
>> There is used as the subject of the verb 'be' to say that something exists
>> or does not exist, or to draw attention to it.
>> "There are roadworks between the two towns."
>> "Are there some countries that have been able to tackle these problems
>> successfully?"
>> "There were differences of opinion, he added, on very basic issues."
>> "There's nothing in this room; there's no bed, and not a single shelf."
>> "There's no way we can afford to buy a house at the moment."
>> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/there
>
> Non ha senso.

Me ne sono stupito anch'io. Da lì è nato l'impulso a iniziare questo
thread.
Anch'io interpreto così.

>> Terza possibilità: secondo Shurley, blog grammaticale, "there" è un
>> "expletive".
>>
>> Just when you think you’ve got it all figured out, the word there shows up
>> in a sentence as an *expletive*.   If you’re not familiar with this term,
>> allow me to explain. An expletive is an “extra word” that is not
>> grammatically related to the rest of the sentence.  Here’s an example
>> sentence.  Read it carefully and locate the simple subject:
>>
>> There are some pencils in my desk drawer.
>>
>> The word there is not the subject of the sentence; the simple subject is
>> pencils.  There is being used as an expletive and serves to get the
>> sentence moving.  Any time a sentence begins with the word there, the true
>> subject will be farther on in the sentence, so don’t be fooled!
>>
>> Another way to determine if the word there is being used as an expletive is
>> to rewrite the sentence without using it.  If you can rewrite it without
>> losing any meaning, you will know you’re correct. Notice how the sentence
>> meaning does not change when I leave out the word there:
>>
>> Some pencils are in my desk drawer.
>
> Basta rimuovere il complemento di luogo per capire che tale regola non ha
> senso:
> "There were lots of people"

Già. Però, non so, "There were lots of people" non mi pare una frase
che sta in piedi da sola.

Kiuhnm

unread,
Feb 13, 2022, 3:15:14 PM2/13/22
to
On 13/02/2022 16:53, IdP wrote:
>> Basta rimuovere il complemento di luogo per capire che tale regola non
>> ha senso:
>>    "There were lots of people"
>
> Già. Però, non so, "There were lots of people" non mi pare una frase che
> sta in piedi da sola.

Perché no??
- Com'era la festa?
- C'era troppa gente.

IdP

unread,
Feb 14, 2022, 6:35:49 AM2/14/22
to
Kiuhnm formulated on domenica :
> On 13/02/2022 16:53, IdP wrote:
>>> Basta rimuovere il complemento di luogo per capire che tale regola non ha
>>> senso:
>>>    "There were lots of people"
>>
>> Già. Però, non so, "There were lots of people" non mi pare una frase che
>> sta in piedi da sola.
>
> Perché no??
> - Com'era la festa?
> - C'era troppa gente.

Appunto, come risposta a una domanda, o comunque facendo
riferiferimento a qualcos'altro che è stato detto o almeno sottinteso.

Se dici "C'era troppa gente." da solo, viene spontaneo chiedere
"Dove?", altrimenti il discorso rimane sospeso come il finale di certe
serie tivù! :D


Invece "Allo stadio c'era troppa gente." mi pare una frase
autosufficiente, per così dire.

Kiuhnm

unread,
Feb 14, 2022, 2:28:05 PM2/14/22
to
Tutto questo mi pare irrilevante. La frase sta grammaticalmente in piedi
da sola quindi la regola relativa all'espletivo è errata.

IdP

unread,
Feb 15, 2022, 8:23:09 AM2/15/22
to
Kiuhnm formulated the question :
> On 14/02/2022 12:35, IdP wrote:
>> Kiuhnm formulated on domenica :
>>> On 13/02/2022 16:53, IdP wrote:
>>>>> Basta rimuovere il complemento di luogo per capire che tale regola non
>>>>> ha senso:
>>>>>    "There were lots of people"
>>>>
>>>> Già. Però, non so, "There were lots of people" non mi pare una frase che
>>>> sta in piedi da sola.
>>>
>>> Perché no??
>>> - Com'era la festa?
>>> - C'era troppa gente.
>>
>> Appunto, come risposta a una domanda, o comunque facendo riferiferimento a
>> qualcos'altro che è stato detto o almeno sottinteso.
>>
>> Se dici "C'era troppa gente." da solo, viene spontaneo chiedere "Dove?",
>> altrimenti il discorso rimane sospeso come il finale di certe serie tivù!
>> :D
>>
>>
>> Invece "Allo stadio c'era troppa gente." mi pare una frase autosufficiente,
>> per così dire.
>
> Tutto questo mi pare irrilevante. La frase sta grammaticalmente in piedi da
> sola quindi la regola relativa all'espletivo è errata.

Ma forse è migliorabile specificando che deve trattarsi di una frase
non solo graammaticalmente valida ma anche "autosufficiente" in quanto
a significato, cioè non rimandare ad altro per una piena comprensione.
Il che forse viene dato per scontato, visto che il discorso di Shurley
era sul mantenere invariato il significato.

"Another way to determine if the word there is being used as an
expletive is to rewrite the sentence without using it. If you can
rewrite it without losing any meaning, you will know you’re correct.
Notice how the sentence meaning does not change when I leave out the
word 'there'..."

Kiuhnm

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Feb 15, 2022, 12:34:34 PM2/15/22
to
There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary and those who
don't.
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