EVH sound di 1984 ...per i poveri!
Massimiliano
la domanda sul suono di Van Halen e' stata posta molte volte,
tuttavia, ricercando nei vecchi messaggi non ne ho cavato molto di
piu' di quanto gia' non sapessi....
Dato che il suono - intendo quello dell'album 1984 e basta - di EVH
nasce da cose semplici, e' possibile avvicinarvisi (ti, ci, vi
bi,...sembro la Marchesini ;-)) anche NON disponendo della
strumentazione originale (Marshall '67, Kramer, MXR Phaser ecc..), in
virtu' dei costi di tale equipaggiamento?
Vi propongo le seguente riflessioni/sfide, cui spero i piu'
van-haleniani rispondano..
CHITARRA
Si dispone di una chitarra con humbucker e floyd Rose. Quetso bendetto
humbucker, e' meglio Di Marzio o Seymour Duncan? Io ritengo che alla
fin fine non vi sia tanta differenza..l'importante e' scegliere quello
con le caratteristiche adatte..Quali sono, secondo voi, tali
caratteristiche (in termini di output, abbinamento con il legno della
guitar, ecc.)?
AMPLI
NOn amo i Marshall (sorry). Inoltre queelo che suonava EVH era
modificato e quindi posso presumere che il marshall di serie NON sia
indipsensabile per avvicinarmi al suono di 1984. HO provato il 5150,
che e' fantastico, ma costoso, inoltre mi semra piu' orientato ad una
distorsione moderna - cioe' suono grosso e compresso, con molto
sustain. A me sembra che il suono di 1984 fosse grosso piu' che altro
per il 'volume' e non per la pasta sonora, avesse insomma meno
sustain. Sbaglio? Fate chiarezza please, che voglio imparare qualcosa
da 'sto 3ead.
In pratica, se voi aveste un qualsiasi combo valvolare da 50/100W -
per valvolare intendo tutto a valvole o solo il pre - come settereste
i controlli di tono per ottenere quel suono? Per ampli 'qualsiasi?
intendo quelli medi piu' diffusi, versatili e buoni per tutti, tipo
Peavey Bandit, Laney, H&K Attax, Fender Pro Roc e naturalmente
Marshall?
EFFETTI
Again, semplicita' al massimo. NO eventide please. Io sono dell'ida
che un pedale distorsore non serva (troppo suono grosso e sustain).
Passiamo agli altri
Prima domanda - il Phaser MXR e' insostituibile? SE no specificare
altri pordotti please
SEconda domanda - come regolarlo? C'e' una regolazione tipica per il
brownsound? Qual e'?
Terza doamnda - DElay..come settarlo insieme al phaser?
MANI
Vietato rispondere che il suono sta TUTTO nelle mani ;-))
Ciao e grazie
Brownsound
listening to earlier-era Van Halen, I was awestruck by the raw, pure rock
sounds that Edward produced from his guitars. In a period where rock guitar
had become stagnant, Edward burst onto the scene like a fireball. As we
moved into the 80's, it seemed everyone had become an Eddie-clone, with
their custom hot-rodded guitars strat-styled guitars and Marshall 100 watt
tops. Edward's sound from that era has been dubbed the "brown sound". Let's
look into how what he used in the early days of Van Halen.
Guitars
Edward's most famous guitar used for Van Halen's earliest recordings was his
white and black striped Stratocaster-style guitar pictured on the cover of
Van Halen's self-titled debut album. Though it went through various parts
including different necks (a Kramer neck was put on it around the 1984-era),
Edward's basic guitar construction formula for his recording and various
stage guitars, was a simple one.
In Guitar World's January 1981 feature, Edward revealed that he in fact had
a preference for unfinished maple necks as well as Gibson PAF pickups. His
necks were often maple "cap" necks, a two-piece design as used on late 60's
Fenders which softened the sometimes overly-bright one-piece maple necks.
While he admitted using all different types of pickups, Edward's preference
at the time for replacement pickups (besides Gibson PAFs often taken from
ES-335s) were those made by Seymour Duncan.
Edward's guitar used on the first Van Halen record was a 1959 Fender
Stratocaster (January 1981,Guitar World) body updated with various parts.
The bridge on this first guitar was a standard Fender tremolo bridge from a
1958 Stratocaster (Note: other reports I found on the Internet have claimed
that the guitar body itself is from various other years - 1965 shows up most
often). On Van Halen II, a Charvel-bodied Stratocaster with its single rear
humbucking pickup now rear mounted (this was Edward's idea according to the
April 1980 issue of Guitar Player) was used. The pickup used for the
recording sessions was not the one seen in the photograph on the Van Halen
II album. In fact, the true pickup he used was another custom
Edward-creation. By loading a magnet from a PAF Gibson into a DiMarzio
pickup and then rewiring it by hand, Edward eventually found a suitable tone
he liked and that was the final pickup used for the guitar and the Van Halen
II sessions.
For future guitars, Edward would mount his pickups directly to the inside
body of the instrument, his feeling being that the pickups would work as
"one" with his guitars and therefore sustain would be increased.
Another interesting Edward idea revealed in the April 1980 issue of Guitar
Player was that he dipped many of his pickups in paraffin wax to reduce
feedback noise. The idea was that the paraffin wax would prevent the subtle
movement of the windings that caused feedback. Edward also admitted to
killing a few pickups in the process as the wax sometimes burned through the
coil windings when left to soak for too long a period.
Edward utilized the tremolo bar quite heavily and was the early adopter of
the famous Floyd Rose double-locking tremolo system. His first guitar to
incorporate a Floyd Rose was of course another custom Edward creation, this
time featuring an all-mahogony body built by Boogie Bodies, and a Gibson PAF
wired straight to the volume control. Edward's complaint about the Floyd
Rose design was that it would cause the tone to be a little thin and bright.
As a result, the mahogany-bodied Boogie Stratocaster design (which was also
actually thicker than a standard Stratocaster body) helped add sustain and
counteract the "thinning out" that occurred with the Floyd. Because of the
sonic characteristic changes that the Floyd Rose made, Edward opted to stick
with guitars that used standard tremolo bridges in the studio and use
Floyd-equipped guitars for live shows.
Inside his guitars, Edward bypassed all tone controls and wired his pickups
with only one volume control, valued at 500K Ohms. There was no logic behind
this, Edward admitted in the February 1990 issue of Guitar World, and he
simply did it this way because when he put together his first guitar and
removed the pickguard, he was uncertain how to wire all the tone controls
and switches back together. Choosing to keep it simple, Edward simply
discarded the unneeded parts and the world watched (as well as countless
guitar makers) as Edward's decision sparked a new trend for guitar design
moving into the 1980's.
For many of Van Halen's early rhythm tracks that didn't require a tremolo,
Edward would often use a PAF-equipped Ibanez Destroyer. In the July 1985
issue of Guitar World, Edward talked about using this guitar on many famous
tracks including, "You Really Got Me" and "Jamie's Cryin'". This guitar was
made out of Korina wood and Edward is photographed with it on the "Women and
Children First" album.
Finally, Edward also did use various other guitars for recording. Most
notable besides the others mentioned previously are a Gibson ES-335, Les
Paul, and Les Paul Jr. (with the SG double-horned body style).
Amplifiers
There are many misconceptions about Edward Van Halen's primary amplifier
used for recording. Rumors have abounded about the amplifier being heavily
modified and some of these rumors were in fact generated by Mr. Van Halen
himself (he admitted telling these stories to help generate business for
tech friend Jose Arrendo's shop). However, in truth according to our best
knowledge, his amplifier of choice for recording, a mid-60's 100 watt
Marshall Super Lead, was primarily stock (Note: see studio diagram
description for more info on this). Edward was adamant about getting his
tone through the power tubes and consequently set all volume and tone
controls on the Marshall to 10. He controlled the overall volume output in
two ways.
First, he used an Ohmite Variac, a variable transformer that could lower or
raise the voltage going into the amplifier (see photo for what a typical
Variac looks like). Edward set the variac to approximately 90 volts, thereby
reducing the amount of input voltage going to the amplifier (see the
Marshall Super Lead article for more information about variacs and
attenuators) and allowing the amp to run more reliably. A key element often
not considered today when running vintage Marshall amplifiers is that many
that were made for export to the U.S. were designed to run at 110 volts and
current U.S. outlets run at 120 volts. As a result, while there has been
much talk about the dangers of using a variac, in many applications, it
obviously serves a benefit.
According to Gerald Weber of Kendrick Amplifiers, Inc., in the October 2000
issue of Vintage Guitar, he states, "You cannot harm your Marshall (or any
other amp) by running it at lower-than-normal voltage. The opinions you've
heard concern running the variac at higher than normal levels."
The second way Edward controlled his overall output volume was that he would
use a dummy load box after the Marshall head, in effect making the Marshall
a preamp for the entire system. The output of the load box would then run
through his effects which would then be sent to the input stage of a power
amplifier (most often an H & H V800 MOS-FET model according to the September
1986 issue of Guitar World). The speaker output of his Marshall was set at 8
ohms and the dummy load box resistance was set to 20 ohms to help ease the
strain of the amplifier being run at full volume.
The benefit of the dummy load configuration was not simply to control the
volume levels (Edward liked things loud!), but also to enable his time-based
effects to work and sound well within the signal chain. Anyone who has tried
to run a flanger or a delay in front of a fully cranked Marshall will
realize that the effects just don't work well. In the case of the flanger,
this is because the power tube distortion will compress and distort the
flanger's sweep and dynamics will be eliminated. For a delay run in this
fashion, the repeats of a delay will be amplified and compressed also and
not sound like a true echo. When Edward ran the Echoplex in between the
Marshall and the H & H power amp, it also made the Echoplex much less noisy
in addition to simply producing a better tone.
Various cabinet configurations were used (all Marshall however), but Edward
was cited to either using cabinets loaded with Celestion vintage 30's as
well as 75's for stage work. For studio recording, Edward typically used a
sixties-era basket-weave bottom cabinet with his main Marshall plexi Super
Lead . The year of his SuperLead model is speculated to be either a 1966 or
1967 model, according to one of Edward's former guitar techs, Matt Bruck, in
a 1991 Guitar World Axology report. In a 1985 interview with another former
tech, Robin Leiren, he stated that the Marshall runs on Sylvania 6CA7 (a
slightly heavier-duty version of an EL34 and long out of production) tubes.
In the studio for the debut Van Halen album, Edward ran the Marshall Super
Lead through the dummy load setup into two older basket-weave Marshall
bottom cabinets. One cabinet was loaded with 25 watt Greenback Celestion
speakers, the other with JBLs. For Van Halen II, a standard configuration
was used with just the Marshall Super Lead and a single cabinet played loud
without the dummy load, but still employing a variac. Later recordings
reverted back to the dummy load configuration.
In the studio, he would often record the amplifier using one or two Shure
SM-57 microphones. In the two-microphone setup, one microphone would be
aligned straight in the front and center of a speaker, the other would be
setup at an angle parallel with the cone itself (from the March 1995 issue
of Guitar. Note: though this technique was used for later recordings, it is
mentioned here because the technique is certainly helpful for recording
guitarists). In this way, he could adjust his recorded tone because of the
different phase sounds created from the angles of the two microphones. The
basic idea of the angled microphone was to provide more bass.
Processors
Before Edward used his racks of processors and complex Bradshaw switching
system, he used a fairly simple live and recording setup. Contrary to
popular believe, there was no preamp stomp box that he employed to help get
additional distortion - this was achieved strictly through his amplifier.
However, on occasion in the studio, Edward would use an MXR equalizer in
between his guitar and amp set up to boost the mid frequencies of his
pickups. See the diagram for a typical studio setup used for Van Halen I.
Edward also did use some effects to color his sound. On the first album, one
can hear the slow phase effect of an MXR Phase 90 pedal on many sections. He
also used an old Echoplex EP3 tape echo unit as well as an MXR Flanger. His
pedal board consisted of these three devices, but in the studio, extra
equalization was often employed in his dummy-load setup, consisting of an
equalizer placed just prior to his H & H power amplifier.
Also known to be very creative with instruments and effects, Edward employed
many unusual uses of effects. Listen to the intro of "And The Cradle Will
Rock" to hear the sound of an MXR Flanger being placed in between Edward's
electronic keyboard and a cranked Marshall.
Typical Early Edward Van Halen Studio Setup Diagram
MXR e.q. set up as midboost (* only occasionally used depending on the
guitar)
Marshall plexi Super Lead, unmodified, although simple modifications such as
a cascaded input stage or added gain through capacitor/resistor exchanges
may have been made.
Ohmite VARIAC set to approximately 90 Volts A/C
Dummy Load
MXR Flanger
MXR Phase 90 (** This was sometimes put in front of the amp instead of after
the dummy load)
Echoplex EP3
(***Equalization sometimes added prior to power amp)
H & H power amp
Various Marshall cabinets (sometimes two, sometimes four) used with various
Celestion and JBL speakers
Don't Forget Edward's Technique!
One can have the identical setup as Edward and still not sound like him.
That is because equipment is only a part of the equation - technique makes
up the rest.
Eddie used various picks and string gauges in the early Van Halen days, but
consistently used a very heavy picking attack when playing the more
aggressive Van Halen passages. Edward more typically used 9 gauge strings
and heavy to medium Fender picks. Later he moved to thinner picks. An
unorthodox approach, Edward holds his pick between his right thumb and
middle finger and taps with his index finger.
In addition, on early recordings especially, Edward often would make the
guitar sound more lively with harmonic overtones by using his thumb to
dampen the strings very slightly when playing certain chords. In this way,
the sound would be brighter and more energized and was a perfect complement
to the high-energy music itself. Edward was also a master at dampening all
of the notes he did not play and used both his hands to facilitate this
control.
Guz
> che e' fantastico, ma costoso, inoltre mi semra piu' orientato ad una
> distorsione moderna - cioe' suono grosso e compresso, con molto
> sustain.
>
5150; Il suono e' grosso e compresso? e di cosa ti lamenti?? Ha molta
distorsione ma basta non alzare troppo il gain.
Usata si trova a 650 Euro, non mi pare ci siano molte testate piu'
convenienti...
MrCrowley
> Cari esperti,
>
> la domanda sul suono di Van Halen e' stata posta molte volte,
> tuttavia, ricercando nei vecchi messaggi non ne ho cavato molto di
> piu' di quanto gia' non sapessi....
HO provato il 5150,
> che e' fantastico, ma costoso, inoltre mi semra piu' orientato ad una
> distorsione moderna - cioe' suono grosso e compresso, con molto
> sustain. A me sembra che il suono di 1984 fosse grosso piu' che altro
> per il 'volume' e non per la pasta sonora, avesse insomma meno
> sustain.
Credo di averlo scritto in piu' di un thread imho la 5150 è molto indicate
per un suono "van halenoso"... come ti è stato detto magari non esagerare di
gain...il crunch è veramente bello!
Io l'ho sentito con una strato e con una delle prime peavey evh e il suono
c'era tutto.
Su ebay in tedesconia puo' trovare belle occasioni...
mrcrowley
--------------------------------
Inviato via http://usenet.libero.it
mrcrowley
> Edward Van Halen's technique, tone, and style are legendary.
Bell'articolo zio...
a me č piaciuto anche quello sul n 25 di chitarre ce l'hai?
Joe
|| Edward Van Halen's technique, tone, and style are legendary.[SPUT]
Scusate se mi intrometto...ma mi vergogno di non conoscere sto grande
chitarrista come dovrei....Mi consigliate qualche disco o qualche canzone
veramente MUST??
--
Baciamo le mani....
Don Vito
http://utenti.lycos.it/vichingo78/JoeHomepeigg.html
GuitArt
"Joe" <joe197...@libero.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:bl1ctl$67ftj$1...@ID-192639.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Brownsound wrote:
> || Edward Van Halen's technique, tone, and style are legendary.[SPUT]
>
>
> Scusate se mi intrometto...ma mi vergogno di non conoscere sto grande
> chitarrista come dovrei....Mi consigliate qualche disco o qualche canzone
> veramente MUST??
"I'm the one" dal primo disco
Guit
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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MrCrowley
> Brownsound wrote:
> || Edward Van Halen's technique, tone, and style are legendary.[SPUT]
>
>
> Scusate se mi intrometto...ma mi vergogno di non conoscere sto grande
> chitarrista come dovrei....Mi consigliate qualche disco o qualche canzone
> veramente MUST??
Dischi:
Van Halen I e II
Woman and Children First e 1984
Questi quattro SONO MUST
a me piacciono molto anche Diver Down e Fair Warning...
poi se ti appassioni puoi arrivare fino a 5150...ed eventualmente right
here,righ now....
se vuoi le canzoni e qua' sono una pletora...
tutte quelle di VAn Halen I pero' se non vuoi:
ERUPTION
YOU REALLY GOT ME
AINT' TALKING BOUT LOVE
I'M THE ONE
ATOMIC PUNK
LITTLE DREAMER ha delle dinamiche di volume da paura!!
MEANSTREAT
UNCHAINED
Dance the Night Away
Somebody Get Me A Doctor
Spanish fly
And the cradle with rock
Romeo delight
Tora!tora!tora solo per capire come è fatto il botto....
Cathedral
(oh)pretty woman
little guitars
happy trails (per capire lo spirito dei ragazzotti)
hot for teacher...questa mi fa venire
panama...idem
drop dead legs
top jimmy...
se ti senti queste imho hai un bel quadretto dell'olandese volante..e di DL
Roth
MrGuitar®
> Edward Van Halen's technique, tone, and style are legendary. Growing up
> listening to earlier-era Van Halen, I was awestruck by the raw, pure rock
CUT
Azz Peps, parli benissimo Inglese :)
MrG
P.S. cmq stai tranquillo che capiamo anche l'italiano ;)))
Brownsound
"MrGuitar®" <mr.gui...@libero.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:xfZcb.173494$R32.5...@news2.tin.it...
LOL
Massimiliano
[SUPERCUT]
Ok, mi attacco qui per rispondere a tutti.
Grazie mille per l'articolo a Brownsound, mi ha precisato molte cose.
Tuttavia, ragazzi, nessuno mi ha risposto..forse perche' mi sono
spiegato male. So benissimo che se ho una Wolfgang e un 5150 sono
vicinissimo al suono di EVH. Ma il 3ead che ho aperto e' diverso: come
si fa ad avvicinarsi a quel suono SENZA avere quella strumentazione.
NOTA BENE: per avvicinarsi non intendo simile al 90%, come si avrebbe
avendo la sua strumentazione, ma diciamo al 70%.
Riformulo il mio quesito - che bada bene e' un po' provocatorio. Come
ottengo un suono alla EVH con la seguente strumentazione:
una Yamaha RGX 821
un ampli Peavey Bandit
Datemi i settaggi, please per il suono! E anche per gli effetti!
L'idea era che i piu' esperti di voi, magari diposnendo di una
strumentazione di riserva (chitarra e ampli meno prestigiosi di quanto
usato normalmente) provino a caccaier fuori un suono alla Van Halen di
1984. SE avete tempo e voglia e riucite ad ottenere qualche risultato
smanettandoci su, me li potreste comunicare?
I caso contarrio, grazie comunque per le vostre risposte.
Ciao
Brownsound
"Massimiliano" <obe...@virgilio.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:84f82660.03092...@posting.google.com...
> "Brownsound" <braun...@zizzetroppe.com> wrote in message
news:<tBVcb.171576$R32.5...@news2.tin.it>...
>
> [SUPERCUT]
>
> Ok, mi attacco qui per rispondere a tutti.
>
> Grazie mille per l'articolo a Brownsound, mi ha precisato molte cose.
> Tuttavia, ragazzi, nessuno mi ha risposto..forse perche' mi sono
> spiegato male. So benissimo che se ho una Wolfgang e un 5150 sono
> vicinissimo al suono di EVH. Ma il 3ead che ho aperto e' diverso: come
> si fa ad avvicinarsi a quel suono SENZA avere quella strumentazione.
>
> NOTA BENE: per avvicinarsi non intendo simile al 90%, come si avrebbe
> avendo la sua strumentazione, ma diciamo al 70%.
>
> Riformulo il mio quesito - che bada bene e' un po' provocatorio. Come
> ottengo un suono alla EVH con la seguente strumentazione:
avevo capito perfettamente la tua domanda, ma visto che non esiste risposta,
o per lo meno non esiste la risposta che vorresti tu, ho pensato di
consolarti con un articolo di repertorio:)
Massimiliano
> "Massimiliano" <obe...@virgilio.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:84f82660.03092...@posting.google.com...
> > "Brownsound" <braun...@zizzetroppe.com> wrote in message
> news:<tBVcb.171576$R32.5...@news2.tin.it>...
> >
> > [SUPERCUT]
> >
> > Ok, mi attacco qui per rispondere a tutti.
>
> o per lo meno non esiste la risposta che vorresti tu, ho pensato di
> consolarti con un articolo di repertorio:)
:°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°(((((
Ma l'hai venduta la tua Baretta?
Brownsound
>
> Ma l'hai venduta la tua Baretta?
mai avuta....
Massimiliano
> >
> > Ma l'hai venduta la tua Baretta?
>
> mai avuta....
Be'...mi ricordo che un sei mesi fa (forse) risposi sul NG ad un
annucio di vendita di una Baretta. Parlando di Van Halen ho associato
subito il tuo nome..
Allora che chitarra usi per ottenere il Brownsound?
Piergiovanni
voglia cacciarci fuori esce sempre cmq il Van Halen sound... sigh..
però oggi sono riuscito a cacciarci un suono alla Iommi dei primi due album.
Che figata!!! Però suoni caldi (alla Vai, per intenderci.. For the love of
God, Windows to the soul, ecc..) è un po' un casino. Qualcosa di discreto si
tira fuori.. ma niente di veramente simile. sigh..
cmq per rispondere al tread.. beh, secondo me basta avere una chitarra con
humbucking (infatti il VHsound era simile sia che usasse la fender, sia la
baretta, sia la axis, sia la wolfgang) e un amplificatore a cui pompare
all'inverosimile gli alti. Se poi vuoi esagerare, multieffetto... e giù di
phaser, flanger, e compagnia bella.
Massimiliano
> Diciamo invece ke io ho il 5150 (testata + due casse) e qualunque suono
> voglia cacciarci fuori esce sempre cmq il Van Halen sound... sigh..
Che bello...ma il 3ead escludeva proprio la strumentazione tipica,
senno' troppo facile
> però oggi sono riuscito a cacciarci un suono alla Iommi dei primi due album.
> Che figata!!! Però suoni caldi (alla Vai, per intenderci.. For the love of
> God, Windows to the soul, ecc..) è un po' un casino. Qualcosa di discreto si
> tira fuori.. ma niente di veramente simile. sigh..
Be' regalamelo allora :)))
> cmq per rispondere al tread.. beh, secondo me basta avere una chitarra con
> humbucking (infatti il VHsound era simile sia che usasse la fender, sia la
> baretta, sia la axis, sia la wolfgang) e un amplificatore a cui pompare
> all'inverosimile gli alti. Se poi vuoi esagerare, multieffetto... e giù di
> phaser, flanger, e compagnia bella.
MI potresti scrivere il settaggio dei controlli sul 5150 che usi per
assomigliare il piu' possibile a EVH?
Potresti anche drimi come va settato il phaser?
Graie e ciao.
Ah, che chitarra hai?