Sampradaya Sun totally ant-ritvik

[M Nanda]

Hare Krishna Prabhus.
I was just surprised to receive a rejection from Rocana to post an article I sent to Sampradaya Sun. I wrote this article in response to this one
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6417.htm
Below is my post, Rocana's response and my response to him.

Title:
Hear Then See: Total Misrepresentation
by: Madhavananda
Florida (but not Alachua)

In response to Krsna Dasa Das's article, I would like to point out that here is someone who is just as opinionated as anyone else. The author proposes that he has the perfect understanding and that everyone else is way off. He enters into the arena of debate with his own arguments while accusing everyone else of wasting time with arguments. Another display of hypocracy in Kali Yuga.
   What really gets me is that Krsna Dasa Dasa is proposing that there absolutely must be a phyically present Maha Bhagavata on the planet to perform Diksa and carry on the parampara, yet he does not give any indication of who that person is, perhaps he has no idea himself. Nor does he reveal who he himself is either. Unless his name is actually Krsna Das, most of on the Sun here know that Krsna Das is just an anonymous name for an anonymous post.
   The main point here is that articles such as this post completely misrepresent the position of accepting Srila Prabhupada as the current diska guru. Using the common label "the ritviks", the attempt is made to classify devotees who worship and surrender to Srila Prabhupada as a foolish and ignorant group of deviants who do not want to surrender to a guru and even reject that there could even be any other pure devotees other than Srila Prabhupada. This is bogus misrepresentation.
   As far as I know, know one who believes in the ritvik system has ever said such a thing as "no, there cannot be anymore pure devotees", to make such an accusation is nonsense. Obviously the whole purpose of the Krsna Consciousness movement is to bring about pure devotees and it is Srila Prabhupada's foremost desire for us to become pure devotees. The question is not at all of whether anymore pure devotees will manifest, the question is whether or not Srila Prabhupada has authorized a diksa successor, and whether or not it is necessary.
   Krsna Dasa Dasa states "The Rtviks claim that no one is a guru" and "The Rtviks say: 'living guru theory', no need of a living guru" This is ridiculous. It is a baseless misrepresentation. Such false arguments are put forward either out of ignorance or simply to mislead people. The actual understanding is that physically present siksa gurus are very much required to facilitate spiritual guidance under Srila Prabhupada who remains as the primary spiritual master for everyone. Accepting the ritvik system does not mean that no one else can be a guru or that the parampara ends, these are all misleading ideas which do not at all properly represent the actual philosophy of the ritvik system.
     The actual philosophy of the ritvik system clearly presents the absolute necessity of living siksa gurus, or preachers. No one has said "no one can be guru". The term guru is being used as if it refers to diksa guru only. It is ironic that those who oppose the ritvik system seem to give no value to the position of siksa guru, as if siksa does not even mean guru at all, while at the same time they say that Prabhupada is our siksa guru. It appears to be rather duplicitous.
   The point is that if you are proposing that there must be a physically present mahabhagavata diksa guru, then you should be able to clearly present who that is and why they should be accepted as such. If you cannot then you really are just speculating. And as long as all this speculation goes on there surely will always be various camps, philosophies, arguments and so on. If we were to simply accept Srila Prabhupada as already present and continuously available through his vani, and follow the instructions of becoming guru by simply practicing and preaching, and introducing people to an undeniably pure devotee Srila Prabhupada, wouldn't we be making more progress ? As it says in the very next purport following the famous statement of Lord Caitanya "amara ajnaya guru - everyone become guru", it is clearly stated " It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna mahä-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life (madhya 7.130 purport)
    So initiating disciples is not even recommended, we are simply recommended to preach. And whether or not another bonafide initiator guru will manifest remains an area of speculation, and the question is, is it even necessary ? According to Srila Prabhupada, when asked about a successor. he stated "there is no need of one person" (full quotes below). In fact on several occasions in late 76' and 77' interviews with major national news magazines such as Newsweek, when asked about a successor, Prabhupada simply spoke of a zonal system and the zonal secretaries. He never said anything such as 'my disciples will initiate their own and be my successors', he did not indicate either anything such as 'there will be a self effulgent acarya', no, he just spoke of a system of management and zonal secretaries. See the the quotes below.
    Furthermore, if there were to be a bonafide diksa successor, would he not follow in the line of the acaryas and have his own books and temples with his own murti, etc, as Srila Prabhupada has ? Would he come into ISKCON and use Prabhupada's books and have the devotees continue to honor Prabhupada's daily guru puja ? If so then why not just act as a siksa guru under the ritvik system ? There is no law that a mahabhagavata devotee must act as diksa, he can also act simply as siksa. If not then would he replace Srila Prabhupada's books with his own and replace Srila Prabhupada's murti and guru puja with his own ? Why would any of this be necessary ? If Srila Prabhupada has already set everything up, written, published and translated all the books, intalled his murti and guru puja everywhere, etc, what would be the need to change anything ? All of this set up by Srila Prabhupada is completely unprecedented in history. It is the first time an acarya has ever made his vani so widely available, and setup a system where he may continue to remain as the primary guru for everyone for as many generations as necessary.
     The only thing which is lacking in the equation is qualified preachers to establish this understanding and give people faith in surrendering to Srila Prabhupada as the one diksa guru whom we all accept and surrender to. So actually, yes. We do need gurus, many empowered gurus who can inspire people to take shelter and worship Srila Prabhupada as their primary Spritual master, and thus take guidance and give honor from and to those siksa gurus who support them in their relationship with Prabhupada. As far as I'm concerened this is the most sensible situation if we expect to see this movement succesful and united throughout the world. If you study the situation from any angle there will be questionable points, as far as I'm concerned, the position of accepting the ritvik system with Srila Prabhupada remaining as the current diksa guru for ISKCON is the most sensible and sound from all angles being that of philosophy, scripture, legal documents, historical basis and common sense (or uncommon sense perhaps you could say).

Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement?
Prabhupäda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement.
Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already?
Prabhupäda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate.
(room conversation with reporter June 4 1976)

Interviewer: I was wondering if he had a successor to do... Do you have a successor to take your place when you die?
Prabhupäda: Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.
Interviewer: So what process would the Hare Krsnas...?
Prabhupäda: We have got secretaries. They are managing.
Rämeçvara: He has appointed from all the disciples a group of secretaries. Each one is in charge of a different sector of the world.
Interviewer: How many secretaries?
Rämeçvara: Presently there is eighteen.
Interviewer: And so that group of eighteen secretaries will choose another leader?
Prabhupäda: I am training each one of them as leader so that they can spread extensively. That is my idea. (interview with Newsweek July 14, 1976)

Interviewer: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor is needed?
Rämeçvara: He is asking about the future, who will guide the movement in the future.
Prabhupäda: They will guide. I am training them.
Interviewer: Will there be one spiritual leader, though?
Prabhupäda: No, I am training GBC, eighteen all over the world.
Rämeçvara: His personal secretaries.
Interviewer: I see. (Magazine Interviw June 10, 1976)

Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?
Prabhupäda: I will never die.
Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)
Prabhupäda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.
Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?
Prabhupäda: Yes, my Guru Mahäräja is there. Where is my photo of Guru Mahäräja? I think... Here is. (press converence July 16, 1975)

---------------------------------------

Dear Madhavananda das,

Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your article submission, and the note about 'not Alachua'.
It will be helpful for you to include a specific byline locator like that
with each article, as we don’t have time to backtrack the archives and
check location for each incoming piece.

I believe there's another personal email from you in the queue, which I
haven't had time to reply to yet.  Thanks for your patience.  The mailbox
is overflowing.

A few comments on your article.

>>What really gets me is that Krsna Dasa Dasa is proposing that there
absolutely must be a phyically present Maha Bhagavata on the planet to
perform Diksa and carry on the parampara, yet he does not give any
indication of who that person is, perhaps he has no idea himself. Nor
does he reveal who he himself is either. Unless his name is actually
Krsna Das, most of on the Sun here know that Krsna Das is just an
anonymous name for an anonymous post.

First, we do not see where KDD proposes "that there absolutely must be a
physically present Maha Bhagavata on the planet to perform Diksa".  Please
give the specific citation.  Second, KDD is not required to reveal
himself, anymore than you were, when you chose to write anonymously.

Third, on the issue of a writer like KDD being expected to indicate who is
a qualified diksa in order to make his points, our position is this:  It
is not incumbent upon KDD or any non-Rtvik to 'name names' for you.  It is
your own job as a candidate (or whoever's job).  KDD has every right to
challenge anyone Rtvik proponent, and to inform them that post-samadhi
diksa is not supportable by Guru, Sadhu and Sastra.  To my knowledge, no
Rtvik has yet proven otherwise.

Using the absence of advice on who today is qualified as guru in ISKCON –
using that as an excuse to damn non-Rtviks, or as a rationale to assert
the absoluteness of Rtvik-ism, are false propositions.  Nobody owes anyone
that kind of advice, or guru-advisory.  We must each observe, discern, and
test guru candidates for ourselves.  The candidates, and the true bona
fide spiritual master, will come by the sweet will of Krsna.  You cannot
make it someone else's job.  If a less than stellar guru comes to a
candidate with a poor fund of knowledge, sastra also provides for that.

>>The main point here is that articles such as this post completely
misrepresent the position of accepting Srila Prabhupada as the current
diska guru. Using the common label "the ritviks", the attempt is made to
classify devotees who worship and surrender to Srila Prabhupada as a
foolish and ignorant group of deviants who do not want to surrender to a
guru and even reject that there could even be any other pure devotees
other than Srila Prabhupada. This is bogus misrepresentation.

Sorry, but we don't accept your apologia in this regard.  KDD is
condemning both Rtvikism and GBC Rubber-stampism equally.  There is no
fault in using the label "Rtvik" to describe those promoting post-samadhi
diksa.  That is precisely the definition of "Rtvik", with a capital 'R'
(as opposed to 'rtvik', the term used for an officiating priest, not
post-samadhi, that we find in sastra).

KDD and non-Rtviks have every right to suggest that post-samadhi diksa is
deviancy from sastra.  If you say it's not, simply prove it.  Show it to
us in sastra.

>>As far as I know, know one who believes in the ritvik system has ever
said such a thing as "no, there cannot be anymore pure devotees", to
make such an accusation is nonsense.

I think KDD is correct, although I don't have time to prove it.  I do
recall reading the articles he refers to in VNN.  I believe both Puranjana
and Pratyatosa, well-known Rtviks (albeit extremely unphilosophical
characters) have both suggested that Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Acarya
and with his books will remain so as the lawgiver for 10,000 years, and we
should look for no other to usurp his position as a successor diksa.

>>Obviously the whole purpose of the Krsna Consciousness movement is to
bring about pure devotees and it is Srila Prabhupada's foremost desire
for us to become pure devotees. The question is not at all of whether
anymore pure devotees will manifest, the question is whether or not
Srila Prabhupada has authorized a diksa successor, and whether or not it
is necessary.

These are not the only questions.  The biggest question of all, outside of
Prabhupada naming diksa successor(s) is -- Is post-samadhi diksa
sastrically authorized, or asiddhantic?

>>Krsna Dasa Dasa states "The Rtviks claim that no one is a guru" and "The
Rtviks say: 'living guru theory', no need of a living guru" This is
ridiculous. It is a baseless misrepresentation. Such false arguments are
put forward either out of ignorance or simply to mislead people. The
actual understanding is that physically present siksa gurus are very
much required to facilitate spiritual guidance under Srila Prabhupada
who remains as the primary spiritual master for everyone. Accepting the
ritvik system does not mean that no one else can be a guru or that the
parampara ends, these are all misleading ideas which do not at all
properly represent the actual philosophy of the ritvik system.

Most Rtviks certainly do say there's no need of a living guru.  We hear it
all the time.  That is a fundamental tenet of Rtvik-vada.  Why do you
suggest it's not?  When KDD refers to "no one is guru", he's speaking to
the Rtvik notion that there is no qualified diksa on the planet at this
moment, and again, that is certainly a common refrain heard from the
Rtviks.

>>The actual philosophy of the ritvik system clearly presents the absolute
necessity of living siksa gurus, or preachers. No one has said "no one
can be guru". The term guru is being used as if it refers to diksa guru
only. It is ironic that those who oppose the ritvik system seem to give
no value to the position of siksa guru, as if siksa does not even mean
guru at all, while at the same time they say that Prabhupada is our
siksa guru. It appears to be rather duplicitous.

KDD's "no one can be guru" refers to diksas, not siksas.   And you are
wrong about non-Rtviks giving no value to siksa.  That is incorrect.  They
simply don't accept that there are absolutely no qualified diksas, just
because you, or they, may not personally know one.  This is not an
asiddhantic stance for them to take.

>>The point is that if you are proposing that there must be a physically
present mahabhagavata diksa guru, then you should be able to clearly
present who that is and why they should be accepted as such. If you
cannot then you really are just speculating. And as long as all this
speculation goes on there surely will always be various camps,
philosophies, arguments and so on.

Again, there is no requirement for someone else to tell you who the
qualified diksas are.  It is up to you, and Supersoul, to find that out
for yourself.  The "camps" do not come from this speculation.  The camps
come from differing interpretations of sastra.

>>So initiating disciples is not even recommended, we are simply
recommended to preach. And whether or not another bonafide initiator
guru will manifest remains an area of speculation, and the question is,
is it even necessary? According to Srila Prabhupada, when asked about a
successor. he stated "there is no need of one person"

Precisely.  So why is it that the Rtviks feel post-samadhi diksa is an
absolute requirement?  Why not simply act as siksas, preach, and await the
next self-effulgent, self-evident maha-bhagavata to approach for diksa, or
to refer your friends/candidates to?

Nowhere in sastra do we find that there is any promise of a timeline
within which Krsna as Supersoul must provide us with a qualified diksa
guru candidate to approach.  The Lord will do this for the sincere seeker
in His own sweet time, according to His will, and the candidate's desires.
 No one has to give answers to ISKCON devotees about how/when/where they
will get to exercise their "right" to take diksa.  They have no right,
beyond the rights Krsna personally, directly endows them with.  Again, His
will, the candidate's desires.  We have become so institutionalized in
ISKCON that everyone believes they have a right to expect and demand
'instant diksa', therefore somebody better have all the right answers
about how the current personalities in ISKCON are who will fit that bill,
and if not… well, then you must accept Rtvik-vada.  But sastra tells the
story a different way.

>>Furthermore, if there were to be a bonafide diksa successor, would he
not follow in the line of the acaryas and have his own books and temples
with his own murti, etc, as Srila Prabhupada has ? Would he come into
ISKCON and use Prabhupada's books and have the devotees continue to
honor Prabhupada's daily guru puja ? If so then why not just act as a
siksa guru under the ritvik system?

Why not just act as a siksa guru, without the asiddhantic, religious,
Christian-like pretense of an officiating priest, connecting you as a
supposedly post-samadhi diksa disciple?  Why not just be a siksa disciple,
until Krsna provides a qualified diksa guru – not post-samadhi, which is
not supportable by sastra – but in real life?

>>There is no law that a mahabhagavata devotee must act as diksa, he can
also act simply as siksa.

Likewise, there is no law that a maha-bhagavata must accept a diksa
candidate post-samadhi, having no right to observe, test and judge him.
There is no law that Srila Prabhupada must accept every diksa candidate
that some self-proclaimed, supposed qualified Rtvik "priest" sits down
before a fire yajna.

In conclusion, sorry to say prabhu, we don't accept this article for
publication.  We don't accept your arguments, which have been promoted by
Rtvik adherents since the beginning of Rtvik-ism.  If you have some new
evidence, arguments or realizations that are pro-Rtvik, we will accept
them.  Otherwise, please don't submit Rtvik propaganda, especially based
on the sort of poor logic demonstrated by this article.  You will have to
go to a Rtvik site for that.

- Show quoted text -

> Title:
> Hear Then See: Total Misrepresentation
> by: Madhavananda
> Florida (but not Alachua)
>
> In response to Krsna Dasa Das's article, I would like to point out that
> here
> is someone who is just as opinionated as anyone else. The author proposes
> that he has the perfect understanding and that everyone else is way off.
> He
> enters into the arena of debate with his own arguments while accusing
> everyone else of wasting time with arguments. Another display of hypocracy
> in Kali Yuga.
>    What really gets me is that Krsna Dasa Dasa is proposing that there
> absolutely must be a phyically present Maha Bhagavata on the planet to
> perform Diksa and carry on the parampara, yet he does not give any
> indication of who that person is, perhaps he has no idea himself. Nor does
> he reveal who he himself is either. Unless his name is actually Krsna Das,
> most of on the Sun here know that Krsna Das is just an anonymous name for
> an
> anonymous post.
>    The main point here is that articles such as this post completely
> misrepresent the position of accepting Srila Prabhupada as the current
> diska
> guru. Using the common label "the ritviks", the attempt is made to
> classify
> devotees who worship and surrender to Srila Prabhupada as a foolish and
> ignorant group of deviants who do not want to surrender to a guru and even
> reject that there could even be any other pure devotees other than Srila
> Prabhupada. This is bogus misrepresentation.
>    As far as I know, know one who believes in the ritvik system has ever
> said such a thing as "no, there cannot be anymore pure devotees", to make
> such an accusation is nonsense. Obviously the whole purpose of the Krsna
> Consciousness movement is to bring about pure devotees and it is Srila
> Prabhupada's foremost desire for us to become pure devotees. The question
> is
> not at all of whether anymore pure devotees will manifest, the question is
> whether or not Srila Prabhupada has authorized a diksa successor, and
> whether or not it is necessary.
>    Krsna Dasa Dasa states "The Rtviks claim that no one is a guru" and
> "The
> Rtviks say: 'living guru theory', no need of a living guru" This is
> ridiculous. It is a baseless misrepresentation. Such false arguments are
> put
> forward either out of ignorance or simply to mislead people. The actual
> understanding is that physically present siksa gurus are very much
> required
> to facilitate spiritual guidance under Srila Prabhupada who remains as the
> primary spiritual master for everyone. Accepting the ritvik system does
> not
> mean that no one else can be a guru or that the parampara ends, these are
> all misleading ideas which do not at all properly represent the actual
> philosophy of the ritvik system.
>      The actual philosophy of the ritvik system clearly presents the
> absolute necessity of living siksa gurus, or preachers. No one has said
> "no
> one can be guru". The term guru is being used as if it refers to diksa
> guru
> only. It is ironic that those who oppose the ritvik system seem to give no
> value to the position of siksa guru, as if siksa does not even mean guru
> at
> all, while at the same time they say that Prabhupada is our siksa guru. It
> appears to be rather duplicitous.
>    The point is that if you are proposing that there must be a physically
> present mahabhagavata diksa guru, then you should be able to clearly
> present
> who that is and why they should be accepted as such. If you cannot then
> you
> really are just speculating. And as long as all this speculation goes on
> there surely will always be various camps, philosophies, arguments and so
> on. If we were to simply accept Srila Prabhupada as already present and
> continuously available through his vani, and follow the instructions of
> becoming guru by simply practicing and preaching, and introducing people
> to
> an undeniably pure devotee Srila Prabhupada, wouldn't we be making more
> progress ? As it says in the very next purport following the famous
> statement of Lord Caitanya "amara ajnaya guru - everyone become guru", it
> is
> clearly stated " It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become
> purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna mahä-mantra and preaching the
> principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu. Thus one can become a
> spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life
> (madhya 7.130 purport)
>     So initiating disciples is not even recommended, we are simply
> recommended to preach. And whether or not another bonafide initiator guru
> will manifest remains an area of speculation, and the question is, is it
> even necessary ? According to Srila Prabhupada, when asked about a
> successor. he stated "*there is no need of one person" *(full quotes
> below).
> In fact on several occasions in late 76' and 77' interviews with major
> national news magazines such as Newsweek, when asked about a successor,
> Prabhupada simply spoke of a zonal system and the zonal secretaries. He
> never said anything such as 'my disciples will initiate their own and be
> my
> successors', he did not indicate either anything such as 'there will be a
> self effulgent acarya', no, he just spoke of a system of management and
> zonal secretaries. See the the quotes below.
>     Furthermore, if there were to be a bonafide diksa successor, would he
> not follow in the line of the acaryas and have his own books and temples
> with his own murti, etc, as Srila Prabhupada has ? Would he come into
> ISKCON
> and use Prabhupada's books and have the devotees continue to honor
> Prabhupada's daily guru puja ? If so then why not just act as a siksa guru
> under the ritvik system ? There is no law that a mahabhagavata devotee
> must
> act as diksa, he can also act simply as siksa. If not then would he
> replace
> Srila Prabhupada's books with his own and replace Srila Prabhupada's murti
> and guru puja with his own ? Why would any of this be necessary ? If Srila
> Prabhupada has already set everything up, written, published and
> translated
> all the books, intalled his murti and guru puja everywhere, etc, what
> would
> be the need to change anything ? All of this set up by Srila Prabhupada is
> completely unprecedented in history. It is the first time an acarya has
> ever
> made his vani so widely available, and setup a system where he may
> continue
> to remain as the primary guru for everyone for as many generations as
> necessary.
>      The only thing which is lacking in the equation is qualified
> preachers
> to establish this understanding and give people faith in surrendering to
> Srila Prabhupada as the one diksa guru whom we all accept and surrender
> to.
> So actually, yes. We do need gurus, many empowered gurus who can inspire
> people to take shelter and worship Srila Prabhupada as their primary
> Spritual master, and thus take guidance and give honor from and to those
> siksa gurus who support them in their relationship with Prabhupada. As far
> as I'm concerened this is the most sensible situation if we expect to see
> this movement succesful and united throughout the world. If you study the
> situation from any angle there will be questionable points, as far as I'm
> concerned, the position of accepting the ritvik system with Srila
> Prabhupada
> remaining as the current diksa guru for ISKCON is the most sensible and
> sound from all angles being that of philosophy, scripture, legal
> documents,
> historical basis and common sense (or uncommon sense perhaps you could
> say).
>
>
> Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary
> teacher of the movement?
> Prabhupäda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that
> they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are
> under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this
> movement.
> Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you
> already?
> Prabhupäda: That I am not contemplating now. *But there is no need of one
> person*. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also
> be
> managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in
> the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I
> may
> nominate or they can nominate.
> (room conversation with reporter June 4 1976)
>
> Interviewer: I was wondering if he had a successor to do... Do you have a
> successor to take your place when you die?
> Prabhupäda: Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.
> Interviewer: So what process would the Hare Krsnas...?
> Prabhupäda: We have got secretaries. They are managing.
> Rämeçvara: He has appointed from all the disciples a group of secretaries.
> Each one is in charge of a different sector of the world.
> Interviewer: How many secretaries?
> Rämeçvara: Presently there is eighteen.
> Interviewer: And so that group of eighteen secretaries will choose another
> leader?
> Prabhupäda: I am training each one of them as leader so that they can
> spread
> extensively. That is my idea. (interview with Newsweek July 14, 1976)
>
> Interviewer: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor
> is needed?
> Rämeçvara: He is asking about the future, who will guide the movement in
> the
> future.
> Prabhupäda: They will guide. I am training them.
> Interviewer: Will there be one spiritual leader, though?
> Prabhupäda: No, I am training GBC, eighteen all over the world.
> Rämeçvara: His personal secretaries.
> Interviewer: I see. (Magazine Interviw June 10, 1976)
>
> Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when
> you
> die?
> Prabhupäda: I will never die.
> Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)
> Prabhupäda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.
> Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?
> Prabhupäda: Yes, my Guru Mahäräja is there. Where is my photo of Guru
> Mahäräja? I think... Here is. (press converence July 16, 1975)
>

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M Nanda  to sun

show details 8:53 PM (5 minutes ago)

Dear Rocana Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

It seems evident that you are the Krsna Das here. I thought your website was open to various views, didn't realize it was so biased.
What you propose is very vague. You cannot give a clear presentation. Your philosophy is "every man for himself", figure it out for yourself kind of thing. If there is a bonafide mahabhagavata then he should be worshiped and glorified by all, not some exclusive little group who think they have some exclusive understanding. If someone is obviously empowered then likely there would be no discrepencies or debates about it. I have not heard of anyone of such other than Srila Prabhupada. The evidences are there that Srila Prabhupada extended his diksa beyond his physical presence. You do not make any presentation of who is  a successor nor do you wish to encourage others to accept Srila Prabhupada in this respect. There is only a couple main distinctions between siksa and diksa, mainly that diksa must be a mahabhagavata, and that a disciple must only accept one person as diska and worship him on par with the Supreme. You do not accept this as Prabhupada and you do not present any successor. There really is no reasonable explanation for this other than desire for recognition, prestige, etc. This is what clouds our judgement from being reasonable.

[Anuttama devi dasi]

For many years I lost faith in Srila Prabhupada because I believed the
propaganda that he had appointed 11 successors and then had discovered
how fallible these "pure devotees" were. So I didn't use my spiritual
name, was irregular with my rounds and rarely told people I met
anything about Krsna.

Then I decided that I really wanted to know who Krsna had sent to save
the fallen conditioned souls. My ex, Nischinta told me that it was
Narayana M, so I went to Hilo for a Narayana festival and was
completely underwhelmed. It was obvious to me that Narayana was not
the person who his followers wanted him to be. For instance, they had
an hour long kirtan, sung by a Bengali boy with a voice like an angel,
but only about 2 minutes of it was the Maha Mantra. The rest of the
chanting I couldn't even understand.

Shortly after that I read a lengthy article by Pragosh Prabhu that
included a speech given by Srila Prabhupada on his own guru's vyasa-
puja and that article convinced me that Srila Prabhupada is still with
us and still willing to deliver conditioned souls. That's all I need,
although Pragosh Prabhu seems to no longer believe what he wrote. My
faith is with Srila Prabhupada, not some ordinary man.

[Padmagarbha dasa]

Anuttama.  it appears from the title of your E-mail, that there were articles on the "Sampradaya Sun', [Rochan] being "anti ritvik",  I did not receice any of that correspondence!  Would you be so kind and forward e-mails on this subject to me. There is someone in our community who wants get Rochan to move here, and I have been  lobbying against it.   Thanks !       pg

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[suryadevi]

Dear Padmagarbha dasa,

Hare Krsna.

It's so nice to know that you're "lobbying against" me. Thank you,
prabhu. That's just the sort of personal, friendly, compassionate
Vaisnava attitude we need these days.

Rocana dasa

> You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.
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[Anuttama devi dasi]

In Padmagarba Prabhu's defense, at least he isn't doing it sneakily.
I think he wants the Sandy Ridge community to be connected with Srila
Prabhupada rather than promote conditioned souls as "saviors."
Personally I haven't seen Rocan Prabhu promote conditioned, self-
appointed gurus, but he also doesn't seem to promote the idea of
taking Srila Prabhupada's instructions regarding future initiations
literally. Perhaps he wants to remain neutral so as not to tread on
toes, or perhaps he hasn't made up his mind.

[Bhaktatraveler]

Fence sitters are useless SITTERS. Not doer's. They have no standing in either realm.  I applaud Padmagarba's mood.

RCB

---

From: Anuttama devi dasi <anutt...@gmail.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 9:41:39 PM

> > You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.
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> > Villanova PMP® & CAPM® Classes. Average Salary For PMPs is $100Khttp://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4c66efcaa16a56d1401st05duc

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[tim lee]

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