[Prabhupadanuga] Did Srila Prabhupada change his mind about the DOM?

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

If Srila Prabhupada intended for the DOM to be fully implemented, including temple presidents voting GBC men in and out of office, then:


1. Why did he say the following on May 28th, 1977?:

Satsvarupa: ... So our first question is about the GBC members. We want to know how long should they remain in office?

Prabhupada: They should remain for good.

Tamala Krsna: They should remain for good.

Prabhupada: Selected men are chosen, so they cannot be changed. Rather, if some competent man comes, he should be added. ...

Prabhupada: How many GBC's are there already?

Tamala Krsna: Twenty-three.

Prabhupada: ... GBC is not to be changed.

Satsvarupa: But then, in the event that some present GBC member leaves, either leaves...

Prabhupada: Another should be elected.

Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC.

2. Why did he say, in his Declaration of Will?:

The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.

(The voting provisions of the DOM were never implemented, but still, Srila Prabhupada said, "no need of any change."  If we interpret that to mean that the system of initiations should not be changed, then we must also interpret it to mean that the DOM need not be fully implemented. We can't have it both ways!)


Obviously, Srila Prabhupada changed his mind about fully implementing the DOM:

I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly, "Do it", your first duty is to do that. You cannot argue, "Sir, you said me like this before." No, that is not your duty. What I say now, you do it. That is obedience. (Hyderabad, April 15, 1975)

(If the captain of the ship says "5° starboard" and the first mate replies, "But captain, before you told me '10° port'.," then it can be understood that the first mate has gone insane.)

Even if the voting provision of the DOM seems like a good idea for some far distant ISKCON of the future, it certainly is not a very high priority at present.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

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[mark]

Once GBC, then GBC for life.

Unless for some reason he cannot adequately fulfill the duties of the
position, at which point he can step down and retire from the
position, or if the inability to execute is a result of a serious fall
down, he can be forced (voted) out.

Then GBC votes in a new member, from among qualified candidates.

Tidy.

Hare Krsna

On Apr 17, 12:10 pm, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories
> to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> If Srila Prabhupada intended for the DOM to be fully implemented, including
> temple presidents voting GBC men in and out of office, then:
>

> *1. Why did he say the following on May 28th,
> 1977<http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/770528me.vrn.htm?TP=5732&PLFN=1977>
> ?:*
>
> *Satsvarupa: ... So our first question is about the GBC members. We want to
> know how long should they remain in office?*
>
> *Prabhupada: They should remain for good.*
>
> *Tamala Krsna: They should remain for good.*
>
> *Prabhupada: Selected men are chosen, so they cannot be changed. Rather, if

> some competent man comes, he should be added. ...

> *
>
> *Prabhupada: How many GBC's are there already?*
>
> *Tamala Krsna: Twenty-three.*
>
> *Prabhupada: ... GBC is not to be changed.*
>
> *Satsvarupa: But then, in the event that some present GBC member leaves,
> either leaves...*
>
> *Prabhupada: Another should be elected.*
>
> *Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC.
> *
>
> *
> *
>
> *2. Why did he say, in his Declaration of
> Will<http://pratyatosa.com/Prabhupadas_Will.htm?TP=2847>
> ?:*
>
> *The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of
> any change.*

> (The voting provisions of the DOM were never implemented, but still, Srila
> Prabhupada said, "no need of any change."  If we interpret that to mean that
> the system of initiations should not be changed, then we must also interpret
> it to mean that the DOM need not be fully implemented. We can't have it both
> ways!)
>
> Obviously, Srila Prabhupada changed his mind about fully implementing the
> DOM:
>

> *I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly, "Do it",

> your first duty is to do that. You cannot argue, "Sir, you said me like this
> before." No, that is not your duty. What I say now, you do it. That is

> obedience.* (Hyderabad, April 15,
> 1975<http://prabhupadabooks.com/search.php?CB=&inputString=%22sir+you+said...>
> )

>
> (If the captain of the ship says "5° starboard" and the first mate replies,
> "But captain, before you told me '10° port'.," then it can be understood
> that the first mate has gone insane.)
>
> Even if the voting provision of the DOM seems like a good idea for some far
> distant ISKCON of the future, it certainly is not a very high priority at
> present.
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
>
> To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to istag...@googlegroups.com
>

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>
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[july9th]

"They should remain for good"

When they are no longer "good" they should be removed.
Under the present scenario that would require removal of them all as
they have failed to follow their given functional parameters.

The GBC was defined as follows in 1975:

"GBC RESOLUTIONS 1975:

1) Jayatirtha presented a definition of GBC, which was accepted as
follows:
Resolved: The GBC (Governing Body Commissioned) has been established
by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to represent
Him in carrying out the responsibility of managing the International
Society for Krishna Consciousness of which He is the Founder-Acarya
and supreme authority. The GBC accepts as its life and soul His divine
instructions and recognizes that it is completely dependent on His
mercy in all respects. The GBC has no other function or purpose other
than to execute the instructions so kindly given by His Divine Grace
and preserve and spread his Teachings to the world in their pure form.
It is understood that the GBC, as a collective body of 14-members has
been authorized by His Divine Grace to make necessary arrangements for
carrying out these responsibilities of management. These arrangements
may include delegating authority, managing resources, setting
objectives, making plans, calling for reports, evaluating results,
training others, maintaining spiritual standards and defining sphere
of influence of the various GBC members as well as other devotees.
The members of the GBC do not have any inherent authority but rather
derive their authority from the Governing Body Commission itself and
ultimately from His Divine Grace. Their authority may be over a
particular geographic area or over a particular function. Whichever
area of responsibility be given to the various members their primary
responsibility is to the society as a whole."

These resolutions were submitted to Srila Prabhupada for his approval:

"As the years rolled on, the habit at the GBC meetings was to become
more and more absorbed in secondary and managerial issues. For days
the GBC members would have discussions and write resolutions and
afterward those resolutions were given to Prabhupada for his approval.
One year Prabhupada casually flipped through the resolutions and said,
"Have you discussed how to improve the quality of chanting Hare
Krishna?" We were thinking, "That's not important." At that same time
Prabhupada said that the GBC meeting should not take days but three or
four hours. Prabhupada was concerned with the quality of our spiritual
life, especially the quality of our chanting."
Tape 35: Hansadutta das - The Memories Series

"After having heard and approved the last of the new GBC resolutions,
Prabhupada added another of his own: that no decision is to be changed
for one year, except by him personally."
Hari Sauri Transcendental Diary 1, 1-9: Sri Dhama Mayapur

The GBC body should act solely within the parameters it was set by
Srila Prabhupada those being to "execute the instructions so kindly
given by His Divine Grace and preserve and spread His Teachings to the
world in their pure form."
As usual, the GBC are found to be contrary.

As to whether Srila Prabhupada changed his mind or not, this is a good
question and as GKD prabhu has noted, the research on this subject is
lacking a methodical presentation.

On Apr 17, 5:10 pm, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories
> to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> If Srila Prabhupada intended for the DOM to be fully implemented, including
> temple presidents voting GBC men in and out of office, then:
>

> *1. Why did he say the following on May 28th,
> 1977<http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/770528me.vrn.htm?TP=5732&PLFN=1977>
> ?:*
>
> *Satsvarupa: ... So our first question is about the GBC members. We want to
> know how long should they remain in office?*
>
> *Prabhupada: They should remain for good.*
>

> *Tamala Krsna: They should remain for good.*
>
> *Prabhupada: Selected men are chosen, so they cannot be changed. Rather, if

> some competent man comes, he should be added. ...

> *
>
> *Prabhupada: How many GBC's are there already?*
>
> *Tamala Krsna: Twenty-three.*
>
> *Prabhupada: ... GBC is not to be changed.*
>
> *Satsvarupa: But then, in the event that some present GBC member leaves,
> either leaves...*
>
> *Prabhupada: Another should be elected.*
>
> *Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC.
> *
>
> *
> *
>
> *2. Why did he say, in his Declaration of
> Will<http://pratyatosa.com/Prabhupadas_Will.htm?TP=2847>
> ?:*
>

> *The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of
> any change.*

> (The voting provisions of the DOM were never implemented, but still, Srila
> Prabhupada said, "no need of any change."  If we interpret that to mean that
> the system of initiations should not be changed, then we must also interpret
> it to mean that the DOM need not be fully implemented. We can't have it both
> ways!)
>
> Obviously, Srila Prabhupada changed his mind about fully implementing the
> DOM:
>

> *I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly, "Do it",

> your first duty is to do that. You cannot argue, "Sir, you said me like this
> before." No, that is not your duty. What I say now, you do it. That is

> obedience.* (Hyderabad, April 15,
> 1975<http://prabhupadabooks.com/search.php?CB=&inputString=%22sir+you+said...>
> )
>

> (If the captain of the ship says "5° starboard" and the first mate replies,
> "But captain, before you told me '10° port'.," then it can be understood
> that the first mate has gone insane.)
>
> Even if the voting provision of the DOM seems like a good idea for some far
> distant ISKCON of the future, it certainly is not a very high priority at
> present.
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
>
> To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to istag...@googlegroups.com
>

> Getting too many emails? Please go tohttp://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribeand change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
>
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[Ken McLEOD]

What might be or is the reason, that the D.O.M has not been, and is not a high priority at the moment?
 
yfs
Kurma

 

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:10:46 -0400
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Did Srila Prabhupada change his mind about the DOM?
To: istag...@googlegroups.com; zak...@earthlink.net; amey...@gmail.com

---

Find it on Domain.com.au Need a new place to live?

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Kurma Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Obviously, the DOM is not a very high priority with the GBC. It might be a high priority among some of the TPs, but they are self-motivated.

Like I've said before, IMHO. our priorities should be:

1. Rescue the Archives.

2. Reinstate Srila Prabhupada's ritvik system of initiations.

3. Implement DVAD.

4. Fully implement the DOM.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Ken McLEOD <kurmano...@live.com> wrote:

What might be or is the reason, that the D.O.M has not been, and is not a high priority at the moment?
 
yfs
Kurma

[Nathan Zakheim]

QUITE BRILLIANT, AMEYATMA PRABHU!

NNV DAS

On Apr 17, 2010, at 1:31 PM, ameyatma das [ACBSP] wrote:

Pratyatosh Prabhu,

This topic I will take time to respond to. 

please see my comments below (if you wish to forward to the istagoshti, it is up to you... )  

On 4/17/2010 10:10 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

If Srila Prabhupada intended for the DOM to be fully implemented, including temple presidents voting GBC men in and out of office, then:


1. Why did he say the following on May 28th, 1977?:

You missed a very important beginning of the conversation

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, we were all asked by the rest of the GBC to come to ask some questions. Most... These are the members of the original GBC as you first made it up. So our first question is about the GBC members. We want to know how long should they remain in office?

These are the members of the ORIGINAL GBC as You (Srila Prabhupad) FIRST Made it up.     This is referring SPECIFICALLY to the very first - Original 1970 members who still remained on the GBC. It 'may'  also include those whom SP also selected after that time,   but  Sats is very much making the distinction between those GBC and any future GBC men who are elected.   

Satsvarupa: ... So our first question is about the GBC members. We want to know how long should they remain in office?

Prabhupada: They should remain for good.

Tamala Krsna: They should remain for good.

Prabhupada: Selected men are chosen, so they cannot be changed. Rather, if some competent man comes, he should be added. ...

SELECTED Men are CHOSEN.   Why the distinction?  Because refer to the original DOM - there the distinction is also made,   that Srila Prabhupad shall Select the original members of the GBC.

"2. His Divine Grace will select the initial 12 members of the GBC. In the succeeding years the GBC will be elected by a vote of all Temple presidents... "     ---- from the DOM

HDG ACBSP will SELECT the initial (original) members of the GBC -    in succeeding years the GBC will be elected by vote of the TP's.     The part you cut off of this particular conversation is very pertinent and changes the whole sense and meaning.  Satsvarup started off by stating very Explicitly that he is just referring to The ORIGINAL members as SP FIRST made it up.  Which would be referring to those ORIGINAL 12 members only,   of which at least 2 ot 3 were no longer acting as GBC (Karandhar, Krsna das at least).    When SP says that SELECTED men are CHOSEN,   so THEY cannot be removed does not apply to the Succeeding GBC men who are ELECTED by the TP's.    There were two distinct categories of GBC men given in the DOM,   the Original Men who are SELECTED by SP and succeeding years where the GBC men who will be ELECTED by the TP's.

Prabhupada: How many GBC's are there already?

Tamala Krsna: Twenty-three.

Prabhupada: ... GBC is not to be changed.

Satsvarupa: But then, in the event that some present GBC member leaves, either leaves...

Prabhupada: Another should be elected.

Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC.

Just after Satsvarup says this,   by vote of the present GBC,    BEFORE SP responds,   he then moves on to another at least as great a topic,   HOW INITIATIONS WILL BE CONDUCTED In the Future....      And, thus, SP addressed that other very important topic and did not address this passing comment made by Satsvarup.      That passing comment was not a statement given by SP.   ISKCON LAW and the way the entire GBC was to conduct itself from that point on cannot be changed simply by the passing comment of one man - when it completely contradicts what SP had given in Writing with his signature.   How can we even be sure SP heard this comment properly?    Simply his silence does not over rule what he wrote and signed to.   

2. Why did he say, in his Declaration of Will?:

The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.

YES.   And that system of management was clearly outlined in the DOM - in writing with his signature    and was upheld by him 4 years later via the 1974 TOPMOST UREGNCY admendment which was never, for the most part, implemented -  but an order,   a written order    signed by him and signed by witnesses,    still stands - yet to be implemented and followed. 

The single passing comment made by one man cannot change what SP had committed in writing with signature -    once committed to writing in formal documents intended specifically as part of ISKCON Law,    those rules and conditions cannot be over ruled and changed by a passing comment of one man.    How cheaply you have taken Srila Prabhupad's written word and signed documents given by him,   that you think the whole damn thing should be thrown out and changed by the passing comment of one man.

(The voting provisions of the DOM were never implemented, but still, Srila Prabhupada said, "no need of any change."  If we interpret that to mean that the system of initiations should not be changed, then we must also interpret it to mean that the DOM need not be fully implemented. We can't have it both ways!)

READ the DOM -       It states that SP will SELECT the original (12) members.  It also states that SP is the supreme authority,   such that if he chose, which he did,   to extend SELECTing of men, he fully had the right to do so,  since it was he who created the rules,        then the DOM states that     in SUCCEEDING Years,   or AFTER SP   SELECTS the original men,    Then,  ELECTIONS are to be held by the TP's to ELECT future members.      And THIS was the SYSTEM of MANAGEMENT that SP set up and NEVER - in writing -  had he EVER changed that system.   Even if it may appear he changed it verbally,   to change a Written LAW would have to be committed in writing along with signature to make it clear exactly what the changes were.  This NEVER took place.  The system of management that was in place at that time was The DOM -    now that SP was leaving   he could no longer SELECT men to the GBC,    thus, IN THE SUCCEEDING YEARS the next feature of the DOM was to come into action AFTER his departure.    And,   that was the ELECTION process of the TP's.   

Srila Prabhupad NEVER changed this system - never in writing,   nor verbally.   

Sometimes the 1975 GBC meetings are referred to where some GBC men had left or stepped down and it was agreed that SP would SELECT their replacements.  Because of this some GBC, like Rabindraswarup, try to claim that the ELECTION process by the TP's was thrown out.    HELL NO.   We were still in the first phase of the DOM,   during SP's presence where HE is SELECTING the Original Members,    since some of those Original Members had fallen    then SP would still SELECT their replacements.   That was NOT a violation of the terms of the DOM - SP retained himself as the Supreme Authority in such matters.  As such, he retained the right to SELECT replacements during his presence for those whom he had Originally SELECTED.   The ELECTION process via the TP's was Still to come in SUCCEEDING years    after SP's departure.  

Refer to WHY SP wrote the DOM and set up the GBC :
"I am getting old, 75 years old, therefore at any time I may be out of the scene, therefore I think it is necessary to give instruction to my disciples how they shall manage the whole institution. "
--- from the DOM

SP could leave his body at any time.   Thus,   there are two distinct features of the GBC position given in the DOM.  During Prabhupad's presence he, SP, shall SELECT the original members,  and after his departure, in the Succeeding Years,   the TP's shall ELECT.   

That IS And WAS the SYSTEM of MANAGEMENT that was in place via the WRITTEN and SIGNED documents of HDG ACBSP at the time of his Last Will.     It had NEVER been CHANGED    and the passing comment of one man does not have the power to over rule what SP gave and committed to in a written and signed   LEGAL document (legal in the sense of being ISKCON Law).

Prabhuji,   you are misconstruing the actual facts. 

Obviously, Srila Prabhupada changed his mind about fully implementing the DOM:

Wrong,   you have misunderstood the actual position.   There is absolutely no documented proof of this - it is a misunderstanding of the facts.

ys ameyatma das

[Nathan Zakheim]

THE DOM IS OF A VERY HIGH PRIORITY INDEED AT THIS MOMENT!...THE "GBC" IS EAGER TO SEE THE DOM BURIED FOREVER, THEY ARE AGAINST THE DOM.

BY SHARP CONTRAST, THE TEMPLE PRESIDENTS HAVE SHOWN A VERY HIGH INTEREST IN THE DOM, AND WOULD WELCOME FURTHER DISCUSSIONS ON THE TOPIC.

NNV DAS

[mark]

Thank you for the elucidation Ameyatma Prabhu.

I failed to discern between selected and elected, I concur with your
analysis.

On Apr 17, 6:16 pm, Nathan Zakheim <zakh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> THE DOM IS OF A VERY HIGH PRIORITY INDEED AT THIS MOMENT!...THE "GBC"  
> IS EAGER TO SEE THE DOM BURIED FOREVER, THEY ARE AGAINST THE DOM.
>
> BY SHARP CONTRAST, THE TEMPLE PRESIDENTS HAVE SHOWN A VERY HIGH  
> INTEREST IN THE DOM, AND WOULD WELCOME FURTHER DISCUSSIONS ON THE TOPIC.
>
> NNV DAS
>
> On Apr 17, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Ken McLEOD wrote:
>
>
>
> > What might be or is the reason, that the D.O.M has not been, and is  
> > not a high priority at the moment?
>
> > yfs
> > Kurma
>

> > request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your  

> > settings for you.
>
> > For more options, please go tohttp://groups.google.com/group/
> > istagosthi
>
> > To cancel your membership, please send an email to istagosthi

> > +unsub...@googlegroups.com

>
> > Find it on Domain.com.au Need a new place to live?
>
> > --
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[Greg Jay]

Ameyatma ji, PAMHO AGTSP

Good arguments.

Sounds like you have a good case.

Now all you have to do is take it to court.

So who is willing to put their money where their mouth is?

If no one in North America wants to pony up the money maybe you can interest Madhupandit to do so in India.

ys

GKD

[Pratyatosa]

If you want to win in court it helps to have a good mantra:

1. "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit"

2. "We both reached for the gun"

How about this one for the DOM case:

3. "First selected; then elected"

:-)

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

Ameyatma ji, PAMHO AGTSP

Good arguments.

Sounds like you have a good case.

Now all you have to do is take it to court.

So who is willing to put their money where their mouth is?

If no one in North America wants to pony up the money maybe you can interest Madhupandit to do so in India.

ys

GKD

[Nathan Zakheim]

Dear Gaura Keshava prabhu,

Money is not required.

Just good hearted men (and women) who wish to live wonderful, localized Krishna Conscious lives to protect their families from Maya, and to raise their children in loving innocence.

The temple presidents do not need to sue anyone. All they need to do is agree to change their Incorporation papers to include the DOM. The rest, (and the present "GBC") will be history.

Thank you for your intelligent guidance and support in this "Yuga Shaking" vital matter.

You eternal servant,

NNV das

By the way, did you get the PDF attachment with Bhadrinarayan's testimony that the DOM is well known, referred to frequently and is the ONLY founding document of the GBC. He had the DOM entered into the Court Record in its entirety, including the part about electing the GBC.

Would you like a copy?

nnv das

[Nathan Zakheim]

if you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, .....shoot them all, and let God sort 'em out.

On Apr 17, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Pratyatosa wrote:

If you want to win in court it helps to have a good mantra:

1. "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit"

2. "We both reached for the gun"

How about this one for the DOM case:

3. "First selected; then elected"

:-)

[mark]

Then what do we do about the temple president?

The temple president who has sold his soul to the Dons of Its-a-con,
in order to get the position to begin with?

The DOM does not provide law which fully defines the process for
occupation and vacancy of the temple presidency in all cases.

There are 2 personal letters (to Mukunda das and Rupanuga das) wherein
Srila Prabhupada implies that a congregation may vote a president out
with or without a functioning GBC. That is good enough for me, BUT
"I" and others like me are not who we are addressing here.

In other words, what is going to change with the DOM being clipped to
the charter by the temple presidents? Other than giving you and Nimai
a little more power to win in court perhaps against the GBC. Other
than that, ON THE GROUND the temples are as they are, the temple
president is who he is, the people he surrounds himself with are who
they are, and they will be careful to note the limitations of the DOM
to force them to do anything different in regards to their local
program.

> ...
>
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[Pratyatosa]

You are exactly right, Bhakta Mark Prabhu. Before we start having temple presidents voting GBC men into and out of office, we must have TPs who are sincere, highly qualified disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Otherwise there would be chaos. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada's ritvik system of initiations must first be reinstated. Then ISKCON would again begin to attract such devotees.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:09 AM, mark <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then what do we do about the temple president?

The temple president who has sold his soul to the Dons of Its-a-con,
in order to get the position to begin with?

The DOM does not provide law which fully defines the process for
occupation and vacancy of the temple presidency in all cases.

There are 2 personal letters (to Mukunda das and Rupanuga das) wherein
Srila Prabhupada implies that a congregation may vote a president out
with or without a functioning GBC.  That is good enough for me, BUT
"I" and others like me are not who we are addressing here.

In other words, what is going to change with the DOM being clipped to
the charter by the temple presidents?  Other than giving you and Nimai
a little more power to win in court perhaps against the GBC.  Other
than that, ON THE GROUND the temples are as they are, the temple
president is who he is, the people he surrounds himself with are who
they are, and they will be careful to note the limitations of the DOM
to force them to do anything different in regards to their local
program.

[Bhaktatraveler]

I beg to differ Pratyatosa

 

Conversation 18/10/77

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.

 

Prabhupāda: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually… Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

 

Prabhupāda: So I think Jayapatākā can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

 

Prabhupāda: So, deputies, Jayapatākā’s name was there?

 

Bhagavān: It is already on there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. His name was on that list.

 

Prabhupāda: So I depute him to do this at Māyāpura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stopped doing what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

 

Prabhupāda: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?

 

Girirāja: It’s clear.

 

Prabhupāda: You have got the list of the names?

 

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

 

Prabhupāda: And if by Kṛṣṇa’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.

 

Girirāja: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.

 

Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm?

 

Girirāja: I said we will explain to the Bengali gentleman just as you have described to us, so that he’ll be satisfied with this arrangement.

 

Prabhupāda: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven’t got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?

 

Girirāja: Yes.

 

Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur- varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.

 

Bhagavān: Everything is there very clearly in your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

 

Prabhupāda: A man-made scheme—useless.(END)

 

 

Clear over all emphases is on DVD, not an initiation scheme! Just because some person is initiated by Srila Prabhupada does not automatically render him qualified to do a particular service. We had lots and lots of that already! No need to rehash the hell stories.

 

Like I told all those boys in Alachua and Vrndavan during these so-called IRM meetings in 97', no DVD, no revival of ISKCON. Just see 13 yrs later and RCB is right on as he always has been!

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Ameyatma Prabhu <amey...@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 12:11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Did Srila Prabhupada change his mind about the DOM?

[mark]

As far as I can see every incumbent TP is disqualified because they
consider themselves a disciple of other than Srila Prahbupada, or
perhaps maybe a few are deviant "so-called" disciples initiated by
Srila Prabhupada who aren't qualified because of their deviant
rejection of select Vani.

So who will force these TP's to implement Ritvik initiations?

Who will these powerful commandos choose as a Ritvik representative to
oversee these probate TP's.

Will the commandos be in charge of training the TP's to act like
disciples of Srila Prabhupada first before they expect these TP's to
identify future disciples of Srila Prabhupada?

Sounds like a fantasy.

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[Pratyatosa]

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Clear over all emphases is on DVD, not an initiation scheme! Just because some person is initiated by Srila Prabhupada does not automatically render him qualified to do a particular service. We had lots and lots of that already! No need to rehash the hell stories.

But how can a society that preaches, "We are all Brahmanas, and I don't have to read Srila Prabhupada's books because I've got my own "living" guru." ever be expected to institute DVAD? First we have to get them to admit that they are all actually disciples of Srila Prabhupada before quoting Srila Prabhupada's instructions on DVAD will have any effect.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[mark]

Dear Pratyatosa dasa,

PAMHO AGTSP!

You wrote:

"First we have to get them to admit that they are all actually
disciples of Srila Prabhupada before quoting Srila
Prabhupada's instructions on DVAD will have any effect. "

Still thinking about trying to wake up people who are pretending to be
asleep?

Maybe you missed my last post because you didn't answer it. Are you
going to go commando on these guys to "get them to admit" that which
they reject? Here was what I wrote.

**** **** ****

As far as I can see every incumbent TP is disqualified because they
consider themselves a disciple of other than Srila Prahbupada, or
perhaps maybe a few are deviant "so-called" disciples initiated by
Srila Prabhupada who aren't qualified because of their deviant
rejection of select Vani.

So who will force these TP's to implement Ritvik initiations?

Who will these powerful commandos choose as a Ritvik representative to
oversee these probate TP's.

Will the commandos be in charge of training the TP's to act like
disciples of Srila Prabhupada first before they expect these TP's to
identify future disciples of Srila Prabhupada?

Sounds like a fantasy.

***** ***** *****

ys

B.Mark

On Apr 19, 4:45 pm, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Bhaktatraveler

> <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> > Clear over all emphases is on DVD, not an initiation scheme! Just because
> > some person is initiated by Srila Prabhupada does not automatically render
> > him qualified to do a particular service. We had lots and lots of that
> > already! No need to rehash the hell stories.
>
> But how can a society that preaches, "We are all Brahmanas, and I don't have
> to read Srila Prabhupada's books because I've got my own "living" guru."
> ever be expected to institute DVAD? First we have to get them to admit that
> they are all actually disciples of Srila Prabhupada before quoting Srila
> Prabhupada's instructions on DVAD will have any effect.
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
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[Pratyatosa]

Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, it will happen. It's just a matter of when, not if! Why?

Because:

1. It is Srila Prabhupada's crystal clear instruction for ISKCON.

2. Most "grand-disciples" would rather have Srila Prabhupada as their initiating guru than some less-than-perfect "guru" who might fall down.

3. It will take a great burden off of ISKCON's current crop of "gurus". They will feel a great sense of relief to finally return to Srila Prabhupada's tried-and-true ritvik system of initiations.

4. ISKCON Balgalore is the most successful ISKCON temple, so it's only natural that the rest of ISKCON will eventually follow their example.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[mark]

Pratyatosa Prabhu, you are right that eventually there will be an
Iskcon with honest Ritviks, GBC, DOM, etc.

Yet, It doesn't have to happen the way you imagine.

It could be implemented by those who carry the spirit of Iskcon in
their hearts, who get together, and gradually do the right thing.
Creating the Iskcon Prabhupada wanted.

Or, your commando method could force the current leaders of the
changed-up Iskcon (in name only minus the spirit) to be the people
they simply are not but who we wish they were.

I don't hold out much hope of the commando method bringing about a
temple community based on love and trust and chastity to Srila
Prabhupada. Sorry you don't feel the same. I know the alternative of
coming together and doing it ourselves from scratch so to speak seems
a little daunting, but the likelihood of success is better among those
who want to succeed at a thing, than among those who despise the
thing.

ys

B.Mark

On Apr 19, 5:09 pm, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, it will happen. It's just a matter of when, not if!
> Why?
>
> Because:
>
> 1. It is Srila Prabhupada's crystal clear instruction for

> ISKCON<http://rtvik.com/>
> .

> Getting too many emails? Please go tohttp://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribeand change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
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[Bhaktatraveler]

Your right, by the line of thinking you took.

 

But I would say that this DVD will have to happen outside the ISKCON temple structure first. Just like I think that the rtvik should not donate to ANY ISKCON projects and instead support local devotee endeavors first foremost and exclusively.

 

We do need to all get on the same page though, one or two men are not a movement.

 

RCB

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 4:45:43 PM

Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Did Srila Prabhupada change his mind about the DOM?

[Pratyatosa]

Yes. I've been saying this for years. Until the GBC decides to follow Srila Prabhupada's July 9th, 1977 directive, all of ISKCON, except for ISKCON Bangalore, should be boycotted.

Ys, Ptd

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Your right, by the line of thinking you took.

 

But I would say that this DVD will have to happen outside the ISKCON temple structure first. Just like I think that the rtvik should not donate to ANY ISKCON projects and instead support local devotee endeavors first foremost and exclusively.

 

We do need to all get on the same page though, one or two men are not a movement.

 

RCB

[Bhaktatraveler]

I don't know if it is so daunting. We did it before! If the spirit is willing as they say.

 

RCB

---

From: mark <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 5:28:45 PM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Did Srila Prabhupada change his mind about the DOM?

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[mark]

True, it is often our false pre-conceived notion of what "might or
might not" happen that stops us from just doing something and finding
out what it will really be like.

Forcing others to do something to do what they don't want to do under
the banner of religion isn't my idea of having a life. I am sure my
notion of what that would bring is well conceived, and it makes that
approach to living totally unattractive.

The alternative must seem daunting to most because there are only a
handful of us even discussing such a thing, forget about living it
communally. Its wholesale rejection speaks to the ill-conceived
illusions we have of what that transcendental alternative really is.

Because if we could glimpse the true glory behind what such
transcendental cooperation would actually bring us and the world, we
would all be on board and game on.

On Apr 19, 5:47 pm, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't know if it is so daunting. We did it before! If the spirit is willing as they say.
>
> RCB
>
> ________________________________

> From: mark <markmac...@yahoo.com>

> > Getting too many emails? Please go tohttp://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribeandchange your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.

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[Nathan Zakheim]

FIRST GET THE LAW ON THE BOOKS, AND THEN ENFORCE IT WHEN THE SOCIETY IS ABLE TO DO 

BLACK PEOPLE WERE SLAVES WHEN THE CONSTITUTION GIVING THEM EQUAL RIGHTS....... THAT WAS IN 1778. IN 1956 THE DESCENDANTS OF THESE BLACK PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY ABLE TO VOTE.

IN 2008, ONE OF THOSE BLACK PEOPLE WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE USA.

WERE IT NOT FOR THOMAS JEFFERSON ( A SLAVEHOLDER ) IN 1778, BARAK OBAMA WOULD HAVE HAD NO BASIS FOR BEING ABLE TO VOTE, WHAT TO SPEAK OF WINNING THE PRESIDENCY.

THE SAME WILL HAPPEN WITH THE DOM, BUT IN DECADES, NOT IN CENTURIES.

REMEMBER, WE ARE FIFTY YEARS INTO A TEN THOUSAND YEAR PROJECT......CAN'T DO MUCH HARM IN 50 YEARS.

[mark]

Slavery was demonized on account of the misbehavior of some bad
people.

The buying of minority votes and the votes of unqualified immigrants
through illegal political favors is the favored method of the two
faced social communists. Such is the activity of the enemies of the
American Republic.

Barry Soetoro is not "Black". He is mulatto, a whole lotto mixed in
there.

Thomas Jefferson would never have advocated someone as unqualified as
Barry Soetoro be allowed a vote. The vote was for God-fearing
Christian landowners in his humble opinion.

Now we know who thinks he is the Big Commando who will force all those
people to do what they don't want to do and call it a victory. Big
Natty Z. Go get em tiger.

On Apr 19, 6:49 pm, Nathan Zakheim <zakh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> FIRST GET THE LAW ON THE BOOKS, AND THEN ENFORCE IT WHEN THE SOCIETY  
> IS ABLE TO DO
>
> BLACK PEOPLE WERE SLAVES WHEN THE CONSTITUTION GIVING THEM EQUAL  
> RIGHTS....... THAT WAS IN 1778. IN 1956 THE DESCENDANTS OF THESE  
> BLACK PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY ABLE TO VOTE.
>
> IN 2008, ONE OF THOSE BLACK PEOPLE WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE USA.
>
> WERE IT NOT FOR THOMAS JEFFERSON ( A SLAVEHOLDER ) IN 1778, BARAK  
> OBAMA WOULD HAVE HAD NO BASIS FOR BEING ABLE TO VOTE, WHAT TO SPEAK  
> OF WINNING THE PRESIDENCY.
>
> THE SAME WILL HAPPEN WITH THE DOM, BUT IN DECADES, NOT IN CENTURIES.
>
> REMEMBER, WE ARE FIFTY YEARS INTO A TEN THOUSAND YEAR  
> PROJECT......CAN'T DO MUCH HARM IN 50 YEARS.
>
> On Apr 19, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:
>
>
>
> > You are exactly right, Bhakta Mark Prabhu. Before we start having  
> > temple presidents voting GBC men into and out of office, we must  
> > have TPs who are sincere, highly qualified disciples of Srila  
> > Prabhupada. Otherwise there would be chaos. Therefore, Srila  
> > Prabhupada's ritvik system of initiations must first be reinstated.  
> > Then ISKCON would again begin to attract such devotees.
>
> > Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>

> > request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your  

> > settings for you.
>
> > For more options, please go tohttp://groups.google.com/group/
> > istagosthi
>
> > To cancel your membership, please send an email to istagosthi

> > +unsub...@googlegroups.com

>
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[Nathan Zakheim]

On Apr 19, 2010, at 5:07 PM, mark wrote:

Slavery was demonized on account of the misbehavior of some bad

people.

The buying of minority votes and the votes of unqualified immigrants

through illegal political favors is the favored method of the two

faced social communists.  Such is the activity of the enemies of the

American Republic.

Barry Soetoro is not "Black".  He is mulatto, a whole lotto mixed in

there.

Thomas Jefferson would never have advocated someone as unqualified as

Barry Soetoro be allowed a vote.  The vote was for God-fearing

Christian landowners in his humble opinion.

JEFFERSON WAS AN AGNOSTIC, NOT A CHRISTIAN, AND BASED HIS VIEWS ON MASONIC TEACHINGS, NOT SAPPY CHRISTIANITY. HE IS FAMOUS FOR HAVING EDITED THE BIBLE TO TAKE OUT ALL MIRACLES, LEAVING ONLY TEACHINGS. THIS BIBLE WAS USED TO SWEAR IN PRESIDENTS AND OTHERS UNTIL RECENTLY.

DON'T "DISS" HIM BY CONFUSING HIM WITH THOSE CONFUSED CHRISTIANS.

NATURALLY, YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF MY POSTING!

BUT THEN, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN UNREALISTIC FOR UNDERSTAND IT AT ALL.

[Patrick Hedemark]

i assume your question is rhetorical.

[Pratyatosa]

To whom are you speaking, and to which "rhetorical question" are you referring?