Re: Missing Conversations with Srila Prabhupada

[Joseph Langevin]

Dear Prabhus et al
Pranams
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada personally authorized very few sannyasa initiations after his "no more sannyasa" statement of January 1977.

Conversations : 1977 Conversations : January, 1977 : Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay : 770107rc.bom :

Prabhupāda: It is very precarious condition. So we want to give them, all of them, "Come and live." But when you come here, if you get husband we have no objection. But don't canvass. That is not good. And that is making our sannyāsīs fall down. Of course, it is difficult, that young men, young women living, intermingling. But it is... Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to reform everything. Even there there is such desire it should be checked. And that can be checked if one is strictly Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise not possible. So these things should be... Because the Kali-yuga, the more it advances, people will be suffering in so many ways. And the only solace is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, only solution. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he (she) doesn't require husband. He (she) does not require. He... She knows that "Kṛṣṇa is my protector. Why shall I artificially seek after father or...?" And what protection, for a few days either the father or the son or the husband may give? Real protection is Kṛṣṇa. This is temporary, but because we have got this material body we require some. In this way... And this kind of hypocrisy—they have taken sannyāsa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyāsī anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyāsīs. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. After all, young man, fallen down—that's all right. It is by nature's way. But marry that girl. That I am insisting from the very beginning, that no friendly liaison. If you want, get one nice... They are, all of them qualified. Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there

Srila Prabhupada personally authorized three sannyasa initiations on May 29, 1977 at the Krsna-Balarama temple in Vrindavana, India.

This was the ceremony for (i) Bhakti Caru, whom Srila Prabhupada had asked to preach in Bengali and translate his books into Bengali.
(ii) Bhakti Prema, whom Srila Prabhupada asked him to translate the Srimad-Bhagavatam into Hindi and to help re-write and correct some of the distance mistakes in the 5th canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam., and (iii) Bhakti Caitanya, an Indian devotee who had been preaching to government ministers in New Delhi. Srila Prabhupada also wanted him to be a GBC. At the request of Srila Prabhupada himself, I conducted the ceremony in the courtyard of the Krsna-Balarama temple.
Dear Prabhus et al
Pranams
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

As for the sannyasa of Prabhavananda Swami. I am not aware that his sannyasa ceremony was conducted in Vrindavana. I was in Vrinadavana at that time and I would have known.

It should be noted that there is no record of any documented statements by Srila Prabhupada revoking his no more sannyasa stance that he had given in January of 1977.  The few above-referenced instances were exceptions personally sanctioned by Srila Prabhupada. These few instances should not be taken or interpreted as opening of the flood gates for further sannyasa initiations.

On the issue of missing tapes or alleged missing conversation with Srila Prabhupada tapes.  Many conversations took place in Vrindavana, Bombay and London, England in the last few months of 1977.   It seems based upon the currently available Bhaktivedanta Archives published conversations, that many conversations with Srila Prabhupada in the last few months of 1977 were either lost, misplaced or simply mismanaged and and therefore at this point in time, not available.

The following conversations with Srila Prabhupada should be noted.

Doctor: Why do you tape record?
Hari Sauri: Everything Prabhupada speaks we tape record and then everyone in the world can listen.
Room Conversations with Srila Prabhupada, September 29, 1976, Vrindavana, India

Reporter: I think the first question is kind of basic.is why is everything taped all the ...[time]
Srila Prabhupada: Because we have got so many branches, they want to hear me, my singing, my speech, therefore the record it and send it to different branches.
Interview with Srila Prabhupada, February 1, 1969, Los Angeles, California USA

It should also be pointed out that, based upon many statements in Tkg's diary quoting or paraphrasing Srila Prabhupada's words, that there were several conversations which took place between Srila Prabhupada and his secretary, the record of which is currently not available.  The managers in ISKCON should request that the original diary of Tkg should be placed into the Bhaktivedanta Archives, and should be made available for critical [analytical] examination. This may help to resolve some of the unexplained missing conversations.

I have included an email from Locana ananda dasa dealing with the issue of missing tapes.

I hope this helps.
 
Yours in Srila Prabhupada's service

Yasoda  nandana dasa

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From: larry freeman p <lak...@webtv.net>
To: alex das <alexandre...@yahoo.ca>; Yasoda ananda <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, July 3, 2011 4:08:28 PM
Subject: FW: [HareKrsnaDhama] Bhakti Prabhava

---

To: HareKrs...@yahoogroups.com
From: alexandre...@yahoo.ca
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 18:42:38 +0000
Subject: [HareKrsnaDhama] Bhakti Prabhava

 

As I was re-reading chapter 27 of Nityananda's "Someone Has Poisoned Me" (SHPM), these two excerpts caught my eye:

"JULY 11: No tape recordings. Srila Prabhupada's son departed and Prabhavananda came from Mayapur to tell a different story of the Muslim attack than had been reported in the newspapers. (TkgD.114)"
(...)
"JULY 18: Prabhavananda took sannyas initiation, becoming Bhakti Prabhava Swami. A report came from Jayapataka about Mayapur and the recent trouble there. (TkgD.120-2) Abhiram came to Vrindaban (Tamal says on the 19th) and spoke to Tamal at length. (Con:34.329)"

I don't know all that much about Bhakti Prabhava/Prabhavananda. Not sure what his legal name is. I notice that he shows up on at least one online list of people who were once recognized by the ISKCON org as "diksa gurus", but are apparently no longer recognized as such. There's also reference to him in the 1986 GBC resolutions:

"Bhaktiprabhava Maharaj is given blessings to take up the responsibilities of initiating guru."

The only reference I've found to him, so far, on PrabhupadaBooks.com, is the following:

Jayapataka: (...) Two thousand people came. They had a huge crowd. And every one of the villagers, they organized the whole thing there, the leaders, gathered firewood, helped with distribution. We sent some devotees from Mayapura. Bhakti-prabhava Swami sends his obeisances to Your Divine Grace. 
Hari-sauri: What about Mahesa Pandita's place? [break] 
Jayapataka: They want that the case be dropped and that they be given jobs, like before. (laughter) 
Srila Prabhupada: Hm? 
Jayapataka: They're sending messenger requesting that there should be some type of agreement whereby the cha rges against them are dropped, the case is dropped, and that they're given the old jobs back. 
Srila Prabhupada: The charges are made by the government. We cannot drop. Do you follow? 
Jayapataka: Yes. The charges can't be dropped by us, but if the two parties make a type of compromise agreement and file a petition to the court... 
Srila Prabhupada: But now the fight is not between them and us. The fight is between government and them.
(Room Conversation, October 12th, 1977, Vrndavana, emphasis added)

I'm curious whether Tamal Krsna's account about the July sannyasa initiation ceremony, that Nityananda references in SHPM, is accurate. Nityananda seems to be taking the account from the book TKG's Diary. I wouldn't automatically assume that something is true just because Tamal said it was, at the same time I wouldn't automatically assume that everything single he says is a lie. So I'd be interested and curious to learn more about the alleged July sannyasa initiation ceremony. One reason I'm curious to learn more about it is that it would fall after the January 7th conversation where Srila Prabhupada states "no more sannyasis".

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[Joseph Langevin]

Dear Prabhu
Pranams

Those are general preaching instructions. Srila Prabhupada "no more sannyasa" directive or order of the acarya.was referring to a specific policy to be implemented and followed in His society.  A specific directive countermands general instructions. If Srila Prabhupada Himself personally gave a few sannyasa initiations after January of 1977, that was an exception, but his no more sannyasa edict was never changed.

Another issue to consider is why was this very important conversation not brought up by the leaders of ISKCON for a full open discussion among the members of the society at the first post 1977 annual Mayapura festival in March of 1978?

Srila Prabhupada gives a few interesting statements in this connection:

"... One thing I received one letter from Gurukula regarding the Krsna Bowl contests, and I want you to know that nothing new should be added. Whatever I have introduced should remain. Nothing new should be added. New things means their brain is not clear. Carefully manage things what I have established.

 Srila Prabhupada letter to Rupanuga dasa, Wednesday, 4 September, 1974, Vrindaban,

 

"... Spiritual master will not place before you anything unreasonable.But the process is that you cannot change the order of the spiritual master. You cannot argue..." 

Srila Prabhupada lecture San Francisco, CA 02 08  196 Prabhupāda: "Seriously" means without offense.

 

 

Atreya Ṛṣi: ...I am degraded. "Very seriously, or may be given to me from time to time directly, these directions, by my aforesaid Guru Mahārāja, or through his books, or..." In other words, direction given, instruction given, directly by him or through his...

 

Srila Prabhupāda: Better directly.

 

Atreya Ṛṣi: No "His books"?

 

Srila Prabhupāda: No.

 

Atreya Ṛṣi: Not necessary.

 

Srila Prabhupāda: Because I may give direction according to the time.

 

Atreya Ṛṣi: "Or" means both.

 

Srila Prabhupāda: Hm?

 

Atreya Ṛṣi: "Or" can mean... All right. "Or through his commissioners..."(?)

 

Srila Prabhupāda: Direct, direct instruction is important. Just like Kṛṣṇa. In the books He has given many instructions, but then He says, sarva-dharmān parityaja. If one says that "You gave me instruction before like this. How can I give up this?" so that is not important. The direct instruction is important.

1975 Conversations : March, 1975 : Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapura, India

 

I hope it helps.

 

Yours in Srila Prabhupada’s service

 

With regards,

 

Yasoda nandana dasa

 

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From: Alex J <alexandre...@yahoo.ca>
To: Joseph Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>; larry freeman p <lak...@webtv.net>
Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 2:46:08 AM
Subject: Re: Missing Conversations with Srila Prabhupada

Yasoda nandana Prabhu,

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for this interesting historical info, which helps to give a better understanding of the topic, and thanks also for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. One thing you wrote was:

"It should be noted that there is no record of any documented statements by Srila Prabhupada revoking his no more sannyasa stance that he had given in January of 1977.  The few above-referenced instances were exceptions personally sanctioned by Srila Prabhupada. These few instances should not be taken or interpreted as opening of the flood gates for further sannyasa initiations."

Below are some statements from Srila Prabhupada, post-January 7th, that I found worthwhile to carefully consider in this connection:

"It is not that one has to take sannyasa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely necessary for any person at the last stage of life to accept sannyasa. This Ramananda Raya also retired from the government service."

(Srila Prabhupada, Evening Lecture -- Bhuvanesvara, January 23rd, 1977)

"They are poor because they have no spiritual conception of life. So that situation is always existing; therefore it is the duty of the leaders of the society, especially of the brahmanas and ksatriyas, to take sannyasa and preach Krsna consciousness to the mass of people."

(Srila Prabhupada, Evening Lecture -- Bhuvanesvara, January 23rd, 1977)

"Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don't forget the problem and the aim of life."

(Srila Prabhupada, Evening Conversation, January 25th, 1977, Puri)

"Sannyasa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyasa. After fiftieth year one must take to vanaprastha, vanam vrajet. This is system. So... System of purification, how to become designationless. And if we keep the designation, then, sastra says, sa eva go-kharah..."

(Srila Prabhupada, Evening Darsana, May 13th, 1977, Hrishikesh)

All the best,

Alex

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From: Joseph Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
To: larry freeman p <lak...@webtv.net>; alex das <alexandre...@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 11:39:43 PM
Subject: Re: Missing Conversations with Srila Prabhupada