Bhakti Charu Swami on Correcting ISKCON's Guru System

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Recently, the GBC body became painfully aware that through that mistake a parallel line of authority has been created in ISKCON which is causing a considerable amount of damage to the institution and is stifling the growth of the movement. It is very laudable of the GBC body that they have taken this issue very seriously and are working hard to rectify it.

(http://iskconklnews.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/stumbling-blocks-and-steping-stones/)

So it sounds like, according to this paragraph by Bhakti Charu Swami, that the GBC has finally realized that there's a big, big problem with ISKCON's diksa guru initiation system. I wonder what the GBC's next self-motivated, "I wanna be a guru like Srila Prabhupada," stopgap measure will be?

How can any good come from a GBC that has already admitted that they are criminally negligent for allowing 1000 helpless children to be sexually molested in the ISKCON boarding schools? They settled the resultant lawsuit out of court for US$10,000,000. That is an admission of guilt. All of the defendants named in the lawsuit were GBC men.

Did any of them go to jail because of their admitted criminal negligence? No!

Did any of them lose their positions of authority because of their admitted criminal negligence? No!

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM, B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP) <mv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have to admit that I have NOT read this through, (because I already know "stuff" about Bhakti Caru). Based on what I know about B.Caru, who with "soft, slow voice" is a good "convincing" talker, LOOK AT HIS ACTIONS. Has anyone ever asked B.Caru if he is accepting that Srila Prabhupada is THE ISKCON ACARYA (and of course ISKCON'S FOUNDER/ACARYA), then WHY!!! is it B.Caru TAKES SO!!! MUCH!!! MONEY, NOT ONLY from his own disciples, but SO!!! MANY!!! OTHER!!! PEOPLE connected with ISKCON, and KEEPS!!! IT FOR HIMSELF!!! DUH-UH

Bhakti Caru has one of the richest men in South Africa, who he just calls up on the telephone and tell him how much to deposit in his (B.Caru's) bank account, and this is just in regards to this ONE person, what to speak of all the other money B.Caru is getting from everyone and everywhere else.

WAKE UP. B.Caru talks, but where's the walk? (ACTION). And he KNOWS like the REST!!! of the GBC that Srila Prabhupada WAS POISONED!!!

[gaura...@gmail.com]

Could be also the other way round, that Bhakti Caru Swami is considered the problem. This happened already, when he got a supervison. Don't know what they do with recidivists?

2009/8/11 Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Supervision? Do you mean suspension?

I talked with a big ISKCON leader on the phone a few months ago and was told that the current system for first and second initiations by the GBC rubber stamped "gurus" is "certainly a mess!"

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 2:04 PM, gaura...@gmail.com <gaura...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could be also the other way round, that Bhakti Caru Swami is considered the problem. This happened already, when he got a supervision. Don't know what they do with recidivists?

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Urdhvaga Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 I don't think that there was any poison in that milk:

"Another Perspective on the Poison Issue" (http://pratyatosa.com/PoisonNot.htm)

To falsely accuse someone, especially a devotee, is extremely sinful.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, <Urdh...@aol.com> wrote:

>>>> WAKE UP. B.Caru talks, but where's the walk? (ACTION). And he KNOWS like the REST!!! of the GBC that Srila Prabhupada WAS POISONED!!! >>>>

Yes, and it was Caru Swami who gave the poisonous milk to Srila Prabhupada, whether he knew it or not does not matter.

http://www.harekrsna.org/Bhakti-Charu-hist.htm


With heavy heart...

Please accept my fallen obeisance's at your lotus feet's. I have stayed up
all night reading related articles on http://members.tripod.com/gurupoison
et cetera, and must tell you what has been on my mind for some time.  I
have been looking for who or where to give this information.
 
In Mayapura, 1977, I was very ill. One day, feeling like finally healing,
but still ill, I was benedicted with a maha-lassi (yogurt-drink) that came
off Prabhupada's plate. I have senses past normal, and sometimes I pick up
things, and the impression in my mind is a memory of a mention, a whisper
in the hall perhaps, of
poison, and a distinct feeling of being like watched to see if there was
any effect. 

I am sure all involved persons could be found, but do not wish to state
this publicly in case this comes to trial and witnesses. I know I dismissed
it all as my mind at the time(which I often do with psychic/ telepathic
impressions), but the fact is I became progressively very much more ill as
the day progressed, and cannot give the count of days, but was soon jetted
home early, the TP informing the local devotees I was in
mahamaya. 

He thought I was playing up or something, but I was so sick I layed on the
floor in the back of the jet all the way home, and the stewardesses didn't
even try to move me, cuz it was obvious I could barely move myself (It
might even be possible to track down the stewardesses!). This was not
airsick; I don't get airsick. 

Soon after arriving I did mend quickly, further contributing to the 'maya'
theory. (I say theory, cuz it was no news I'm in maya, duh...but there was
some idea that my sickness wasn't sickness but maya, and that is not the
case.) I cannot number days, due to illness and being unable to know, but
later the day I received the maha-lassi, or the next morning, Srila
Prabhupada was rushed out of Mayapura to Vrndavana, extremely ill.  This is
historically provable, so the date can easily be ascertained, and thus
devotees who knew I was given the lassi-drink, and perhaps were suspicious,
there are possible witnesses.  Perhaps it is not usable, but if it is,
there you are; I've told you my story.
 
Yours in service to His Loving Memory, xxxx-devi dasi

(not the xxxx everyone knows, just a little sister)

ps. How is it that I am in such shock, yet the tears are not flowing? How
hard my heart must really be!
pps. I tried to send the petition, but don't know how, if possible I would
appreciate directions, if too much trouble, don't worry, I will find a way.
ppps.  All glories to your devoted service to His Divine Grace Srila
Prabhupada!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---------------------

Reply by Aruna das: I am very sorry to hear about your bad experiences in
Mayapur and how you became very sick after drinking the maha-lassi, which
probably was poisoned. I believe they might have tested it on you first
before they gave it to Prabhupada. It is quite possible...

I had been there in Mayapur at these times also, and I have seen Pishima
(Srila Prabhupadas sister) cooking for him. Srila Prabhupada stated to all
of us that poison was given to him via his food, so he only wanted to eat
what was cooked by his sister. But than he still became very sick and they
removed him to Vrindavan where I saw him dying...

-----------------------

Dear Aruna prabhu, Please accept the obeisance I have within my power to
offer, from this very ungreat soul! Thank you for all your well-received
encouragement and comforting words. I have no objection of your using my
letter (for publishing), but would appreciate my anonymity, for the sake of
the godsisters who brought me the
lassi, who are certainly incapable of having been involved, and only if it
came to actual legal use would I want their names handed over for
involvement as possible witnesses to be questioned.

I wished to make sure you noticed that I had been sick already (thus the
reason for the benediction of such rare maha. You may remember that Srila
Prabhupada had ordered the women who were sick to be brought to the
building where his quarters were at, due to the atrocious condition of the
ladies quarters and bathroom. Literally stool everywhere, though I did not
have contribute to this myself, chuckle, or I would have simply lain down
right by the comode!), but was on the mend, when I received the lassi, and
became progressively more ill, when I shouldn't have, as I described before.

Another point is that my impression was more one of Prabhupada having not
drunk the lassi, and someone wanting to see if I was affected, not one of
the bad guys, perhaps someone who just couldn't believe what they'd heard
in the form of a rumour possibly. But I wish to stress that I don't know;
it is merely an impression, and your suggested scenario is equally
possible. I prefer mine, for that would have meant I received the poison
instead of Prabhupada. And anyway in my young somewhat healthy body there
was no lasting effect that I know of. It may seem despicable of someone to
do that, but it doesn't feel that way to me, rather it feels an honour if
I'd received it instead of him. But of course it has been established, at
least to my conviction, that what I received was only a drop of what
Prabhupada himself was given, and not instead of his receiving it.

As for it being a bad experience, what is sickness compared to receiving
the maha of a pure devotee like Prabhupada? Nothing else matters but that I
know that I received such mercy from my spiritual master. It was the first
and only time I had seen him actually, that first morning after we arrived
in Mayapur and he gave class. After class I hung on in the temple room,
after he passed by all of us waiting in happy anticipation. In the end,
when he passed, I was too shy to look at him, but I felt inside that he
recognized me as his disciple, and that is my all in all.

I was very surprised, shortly afterwards, that so many devotees had
filtered out and Srila Prabhupada was still there, and with only a handful
of dunda-men around him (please forgive my disrespect on this term, that is
something I can't help). I held my ground and somehow magically Srila
Prabhuapda appeared about two feet directly in front of me! With NO ONE in
between! I simply watched, feeling amazed, but too covered over to feel
anything really spiritual like ecstacy.

But for a few moments he began to dance, jumping as high as two feet off
the ground! This could have been no more than three or four days before he
was rushed to Vrndavana. Despite my inability to actually feel any proper
ecstasy, I believe that my spiritual master recognized me as his disciple
and accepted me to the shelter of his lotus feet. Therefore my hope against
hope is always filled with hope, and my short stay in Mayapur is the real
highlight of my life. I am not sorry about any of it, and even my getting
sick, it was simply the cause of my receiving his maha. Even the likes of
me, so that just proves everything.

Thank you for your tireless work, you and all those involved, in uncovering
the truth and seeking justice and rectification. When I was 'in' Iskcon, it
seemed that there were only 'posers' and 'grumblers', the posers on the
magic eleven bandwagon, and the grumblers hanging in the wings, knowing how
"out to lunch" their dishonest godbrothers were, but never doinganything
but grumble, never even trying to share their knowledge to the benefit of
innocent souls who got drawn into the game due to their desire to serve
Srila Prabhupada's mission. Know that there are very many of us who are
enormously grateful for all of your efforts!

I am at the moment suspended in reading of the poison book or more of your
site, all of which I will get back to when I feel some strength return to
face the heavy truths. But it is my duty, as far as I'm concerned, to learn
as much of the truth as Krsna provides me. I have to take it in measured
doses, too much at once and I think I will explode!

So thank you again.

Aspiring for the humility to say,
xxxx-devi dasi




------------------------------

praty...@gmail.com wrote:

Thema: Bhakti Charu Swami on Correcting ISKCON's Guru System
Datum: 11.08.2009 19:42:59 Westeuropäische Sommerzeit

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Urdhvaga Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

You are making a very flimsy case here. It makes the accuser look worse than the accused.

Please join the forum (http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi) so that your emails to istag...@googlegroups.com actually get posted.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:08 AM, <Urdh...@aol.com> wrote:

http://www.harekrsna.org/Bhakti-Charu-hist.htm

Bhakti Caru Swami Contradicts GBC

Recently HH Bhakti Caru Swami has been saying some very strange things,
which makes us anxious for the state of his mental health. We will show that
Maharaja:

a) Contradicts the GBC
b) Contradicts Himself
c) Acts Without Integrity
d) Offends Srila Prabhupada
e) Glorifies A Fallen Guru


a) Bhakti Caru Swami Contradicts the GBC

Firstly in regards to Srila Prabhupada's orders for how initiations should
continue in ISKCON after his departure, Bhakti Caru Swami recently stated:

"I must also admit that Srila Prabhupada did not say anything very clearly
about how the initiation system in ISKCON should be after his disappearance
from this planet."
(Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and Answers', Published on June 11)

This is a most bizarre statement. Please note Maharaja states that Srila
Prabhupada did not say ANYTHING very clearly on the subject of initiations
after his departure. Thus Maharaja is accusing Srila Prabhupada of
effectively not giving ANY guidance to the society on this most important of
subjects, or if he did he did not do it 'very clearly'. One can
appreciate just how outrageous this statement is by noting that even though
the GBC and the IRM may differ as to *WHAT* Srila Prabhupada's instructions
may have been, neither of us would dare to say that Srila Prabhupada was
*unclear* or that he simply forgot to say *anything*. Thus Maharaja's
position is in opposition to practically everyone on this planet. At least
this is one thing in which Maharaja can claim some uniqueness for himself.
The GBC, in complete opposition to Maharaja, state that Srila Prabhupada's
instructions in ordering Gurus to initiate after he left are *very clear*:

"Here Srila Prabhupada *clearly* answers questions 3 and 4 above, which the
GBC body had put to him. He says that he will nominate certain persons to
act as officiating-acharyas, and that they will act as gurus, but that as a
"formality", they will do so on behalf of Srila Prabhupada in his presence,
because it is Vaishnava etiquette that one does not accept disciples in the
presence of one's own spiritual master. [...] Once again, if we simply
accept Prabhupada's instructions, without interpretation, it is *very clear*
what he really wanted.
(Prabhupada's Order, Official GBC Reply To The Final Order)

"But there never has been any doubt that Srila Prabhupada *clearly* ordered
his followers to carry on the parampara as regular gurus."
('Ritvik Catechism', Questions and Answers on Ritvik by the GBC)

The actual reality as everyone knows is that Srila Prabhupada was *very
clear* in what he wanted. He sent out a written and signed directive to the
whole movement. This may not be how the GBC state that Srila Prabhupada was
'very clear', but at least they agree Srila Prabhupada was clear.

b) Bhakti Caru Swami Contradicts Himself

What makes this state of affairs even more bizarre is that as well
contradicting the GBC, Bhakti Caru Swami is also contradicting *himself*.
For less than 5 years ago, Maharaja was also emphatic that Srila Prabhupada
*did* clearly appoint his disciples to become Gurus after his departure:

"When Srila Prabhupada spoke about who will initiate after His Divine Grace
leaves this planet, he named some of his disciples, but he suggested that
they should not initiate while he was present on this planet. As long as he
was present they could initiate on his behalf. And that point Tamal Krishna
Gosvami asked Srila Prabhuapda: "So, will they be like ritvik?" Srila
Prabhupada answered: "Yes, like ritvik". When Prabhupada was present in
Vrndavana, he was not able to give initiation to so many devotees all over
the world who were waiting, so there was a need for giving them initiation.
So Prabhupada suggested that different devotees in different areas could
give them initiation. As long as he was present, they could give initiation
on his behalf, but after he had left the planet they would become their
disciples."
(Recorded September, 1995, in Malaga, Spain, and Printed in 'Spiritual
Connections' Vol 13 Jan-April '96)

*NOW* Maharaja  tells us that Srila Prabhupada did not say *anything very
clearly* on the subject. Thus Maharaja is guilty of not only contradicting
the GBC and contradicting himself, but also of mis-leading his disciples by
giving them contradictory advice. The Guru is supposed to lead the disciple
*out* of darkness. But if he simply leads him into more darkness with
contradictory and confusing instructions, what is the value of such a Guru?

We would humbly submit therefore that the only person who is unclear is not
Srila Prabhupada, but Maharaja himself - who can not even agree with the
GBC, whilst also telling his disciples to *follow* the GBC; and who can not
even agree with *himself*, first telling his disciples one thing, and then
telling them the complete opposite later.

c) Bhakti Caru Swami Acts Without Integrity

Maharaja makes an admission that the ritviks do have good points:

"There is plenty of things to do, life is short, and we don't have enough
time to render service, and the good points that they (ritviks) are making,
yes, we accept that."
(Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and Answers', Published on June 11)

"Very good point. I will say that the ritviks do have some points."
(Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and Answers', Published on June 11)

Now please note that as well as conceding that the Ritviks have 'good
points', Maharaja has also admitted that Srila Prabhupada did not even say
'anything very clearly' on the subject of how initiations would go on. So he
is conceding that not only does the IRM position have merit, but that also
there is NOTHING VERY CLEAR from Srila Prabhupada to support the argument
that the IRM is wrong. Yet even after having conceded all this, he voted
with the GBC to expel us from ISKCON!

At least the GBC in general do not claim that we have any good points, and
they also say that Srila Prabhupada *very clearly* set his disciples up as
Gurus. Thus one can at least understand how they were misguided to expel us.
But what is Maharaja's excuse for such harsh behaviour? Thus to still expel
us whilst thinking in his own mind that we had good points and that Srila
Prabhupada did not in any case say *anything very clearly* on the subject,
shows that Maharaja has acted not only harshly, but also without a shred of
decency.

d) Bhakti Caru Swami Offends Srila Prabhupada

Maharaja next makes a most offensive comment against Srila Prabhupada. He
states:

"But if instead we feel that, "Now Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone; now I
am the guru. So what Srila Prabhupada was to his disciples, to my disciples
I am just that." That mentality would have been fine if we were not a part
of a world-wide institution like ISKCON. But since I am a part of ISKCON and
ISKCON has been established by Srila Prabhupada, then I have to act within
ISKCON under the authority of Srila Prabhupada. This fact we have to
recognize."
(Day 3, LA Seminar, 'Questions and Answers', Published on June 11)

Maharaja clearly states that the mentality that "Now Srila Prabhupada is
dead and gone; now I am the Guru. So what Srila Prabhupada was to his
disciples, to my disciples I am just that" would be FINE - if we were not
part of a world institution. Such a mentality is NOT FINE under ANY
circumstances! Even if ISKCON was to collapse tomorrow for any reason, does
Maharaja think that any sincere disciple of Srila Prabhupada's could even
ENTERTAIN the possibility that 'Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone'. This is
a most offensive mentality, and we are shocked that Maharaja is preaching
that this mentality is only to be kept in check because we happen to belong
to a word-wide institution. Please compare these remarks of Maharaja with
what Srila Prabhupada teaches:

"So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased with you ... it is not
that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding ... he is
seeing. I never feel that I am alone."
(Lecture, 2/3/75)

Please note how Srila Prabhupada used the exact same phrase - "Dead and
Gone". Srila Prabhupada does not state that to have the understanding that
the Guru is 'dead and gone' is FINE except when one just happens to be in a
world institution. Rather he states that to have such an understanding at
all would not be a 'spiritual understanding'. It is bad enough that Maharaja
does not have this spiritual understanding himself, but to teach it in a
'seminar' to his 'disciples' is shameful.

e) Bhakti Caru Swami Glorifies A Fallen Guru

Having offended Srila Prabhupada, Bhakti Caru Swami however is more than
happy to glorify fallen devotees. Recently Suhotra Swami asked to be given a
leave of absence from his duties as a Guru, because amongst other things, by
his *own admission*, over a long period of time he has:

"deep-rooted attachment";
his mind "is not only unstable in the usual sense (cancala), but also
deformed"
he now needs "psychological counselling", and a "program of rehabilitation".

He got 'carried away' being absorbed in mundane 'videos and novels' so that
his "sadhana deteriorated", and which was all
"a waste of time".
(Excerpts from a letter from Suhotra Swami To Disciples, 19 June 2000)

However Bhakti Caru Swami's assessment of Suhotra Swami is that he is to be
glorified, for as he said recently in North Carolina, USA, before giving
class:

"I feel a little embarrassed to give the class in front of two very very
exalted vaisnavas who are very learned as well as exalted with their
realizations (His Holiness Bir Krishna Maharaja and His Holiness Suhotra
Maharaja)."

Please note whilst Maharaja thinks it is "fine" to think that Srila
Prabhupada is "dead and gone" if one is outside a world institution, Suhotra
meanwhile is "very, very exalted", and "very learned and exalted" in his
"realisations". All this makes us wonder how one will ever be able to trust
Maharaja's judgement ever again, when he is not even able to detect such
deep maya in his godbrothers? We expect gullible disciples to make such
mistakes, but not supposedly 'self-realised' Gurus.

When one adds the above to Maharaja having been recently exposed doctoring
the translation of Srila Prabhupada's books to support his Guru
position, (please see newsletter No. 20) we have a catalogue of behaviour
that is not at all consistent with one who is supposed to be acting as a
self-realised Guru full of love and obedience to Srila Prabhupada. We
present the above information not to humiliate or embarrass Maharaja, but as
a public service to his disciples and well-wishers, who need to be made
aware of Maharaja's state of consciousness


---------------------------------------------

praty...@gmail.com wrote:

Thema: Re: Bhakti Charu Swami on Correcting ISKCON's Guru System
Datum: 11.08.2009 20:26:08 Westeuropäische Sommerzeit

Supervision? Do you mean suspension?

I talked with a big ISKCON leader on the phone a few months ago and was told that the current system for first and second initiations by the GBC rubber stamped "gurus" is "certainly a mess!"

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Matchless Gift]

"Tamal's cynicism would end up sounding like murder."

Pratyatosa prabhu, do u really believe in the above shit?

ys
csd

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Matchless Gift <matchl...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Tamal's cynicism would end up sounding like murder."

Pratyatosa prabhu, do u really believe in the above shit?

It's the only explanation I've heard so far which makes any sense.

Generally speaking, the only way to get away with murder is to be a lone killer, a member of a closely knit, blood-relative crime family, or to be part of a CIA plot. One or two CIA agents, pretending to be devotees could have gotten away with it. I suspect TKG and Adi Keshava. In this case TKG could have been just pretending to be cynical, which would mean that Bhavananda and Bhakti Charu are innocent.

[Matchless Gift]

thas right prabhu...the answer is TKG

how can someone in his 'right mind' be cynical towards his own father?... how can someone be joking while his father is daying?
how can someone be gigling while his father is suffering?...what kinda behavior is that?

Bhav is a feggot, pedophile, stake and beef lover...u can't trust that beast among men for anything he has to say... if he says that Srila Prabhupada was NOT poisoned, then please DO NOT TRUST HIM.

regarding Bhaktu Charu Swami, he is a very weak persona, and spineless follower of TKG, JPS and Bhav....

the poison tapes are still there after 30+ years, still Bhav and Charu are denying and vehemently opposing.....

there is not even a slight need to advocate for these people

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Our goal should be to reunite Srila Prabhupada's family by re-establishing him as the only initiating guru within ISKCON. Falsely accusing someone of poisoning Srila Prabhupada is not going to help us to reach that goal, but instead will simply hinder us.

We are interested in truth, not speculation and ad hominem attacks. What about "no gambling or mental speculation?" "Purity is the force." How is the breaking of one of the 4 regulative principles, even in a subtile way, going to help our cause?

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[MARIO PINEDA]

Hare Krishna. Why is faul language allowed here? I am not following all, but in any case, veda vata ratas (rascal self made "gods" ) are never innocent. They are the guru killers. 
 
Mahatma dasa
 

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:19:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Bhakti Charu Swami on Correcting ISKCON's Guru System
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Yes. They are all criminals. That's obvious.

 

However, that does not mean that they are all murderers of Srila Prabhupada's physical body. Their murder of Srila Prabhupada is on a more subtle level, such as changing his books, undermining his authority. and stealing the worship that was meant for him.

 

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Matchless Gift]

no prabhu, ...sorry...but i have NO desire to reunite with such people like Bhav and Charu Swami.

Bhakti Charu Swami is constantly attacking Bangalore with court cases. As a 'thanks giving' for Krishna Janmashtami 2009. Thas right, he is very much united with Mr. Richard Slavin, Mr. Jay Israel, Mr. Gordon, Mr. Khana. And their intimate devotinal service to the spiritual master is to lie, cheat, decieve, bribe, name it....how can anyone trust these people for anything they have to say about poison issue, guru issue, child abuse issue, devotees' murder issue, bbt issue, book changes issue, name it....

regarding, "no gambling or mental speculation?", ....Bhav and Charu have done exactly that for the past 3 decades indeed. How can anyone trust people who are additced to gambling and speculating?

your servant,
Chaitanya Simha dasa
p.s.
"How is the breaking of one of the 4 regulative principles, even in a subtile way, going to help...?"
...this is a good question to ask Bhav and Charu

[gaura...@gmail.com]

Dear Prabhus!

PAMHO AGTSP!

Yes Prabhupada stated that he felt like being poisoned. Here in our city one nurse poisoned a hospital patient and was put in prison for 15 years. In Texas she probably would have get death penalty. An alcoholic went to police and in this way she was exposed.  The attorny ordered a forensic analysis and finally she made a confession. All the newspapers published her with photo. Since we live in a constitutional state this is how things work, court decision.

Any goddamned idiot can go to police and the murderer is exposed. Everything else is humbug. Going public in our city with, such and such is a murderer and there's no court decsision, you are immediately handcuffed and locked up in the state's nuthouse. There were hundreds of devotees in Prabhupada's room, if Prabhupada would have said, my servants gave me poison,  the culprits would have been caught immediately by police and put before a court in Mathura. So stop to make a mock of yourself by going public with Prabhupada was poisoned. People simply ask you this question, why you rascal didn't go to police, are you too stupid to go to police, why you were so much in maya? 

ys

Gaurakishor das

2009/8/13 Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

You are exactly right, Gaurakishor Prabhu. Is it any wonder that the highly intelligent, highly educated devotees (with college degrees) at ISKCON Bangalore want nothing to do with us?

We also look like a bunch of morons when we claim that there was a conspiracy involving 1000s of people who were able to hoax the moon landings! It may have been unclear in the 70s whether or not we actually went, but now, after 40 years of not one single NASA insider, even on their death beds, confessing to there having been a moon landing hoax, it's high time that we gave up on the idea, especially since NASA has recently succeeded in photographing the Apollo landing sights. I even presented our idiotic moon hoax theory to a visiting Russian space scientist at Michigan Tech a few years back. He just laughed at me. If all of the Russian space scientists with their PhDs think that the moon hoax idea is ridiculous, then where does that leave us? Most of us couldn't get a college degree if our lives depended upon it! We just think that everyone else is just as stupid as we are.

Similarly, after 32 years of not being able to convince even one law enforcement officer in India that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned, maybe it's time to give up on that idea also. Otherwise, we simply look like a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists, trying to puff ourselves up by putting everyone else down.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Matchless Gift]

first of all US and India are two different worlds when it comes to law and order.
thas why GBC could have gotten away with child abuse and homicide.
Try to start a child abuse case in India and lets see how far gonna get with it. Try to start a poison case in India and lets see how far gonna get with it. Guru murder means nothing there. 1977 Vrindava, perfect place for GBC to do anything demn they please. 2009 Vrindava, almost nothing better in regards to law and order. Thousands of children are starving to death. Cows are sent for slaughter. And... r u serious: "the culprits would have been caught immediately by police, put before a court in Mathura"???
....maybe so if anyone got some connections overthere and is also good in giving favores. And the way the courts are fast and efficient in Mathura-India, God help us all for getting any court decisions overthere.

so your argument that "......there's no court decsision, you are immediately handcuffed and locked up in the state's nuthouse" ....won't fly here.

"no court decsision," ??!@#$
....Thas the very reason why Gurukulis tried to come to any justice in good old USA... because the courts in India would not even consider their case what to speak of coming to ANY court decisions. About 6000 children die in India every single day out of starvation/malnutrition, abuse and disese. Even if a court accepted gurukuli's case by the time it is over most gurukulis would be dead anyway. And also, our bogus gurus are loaded with crores of money and connections and favors to the judges. You think USA justice system is corrupt, .... try India.

"So stop to make a mock of yourself by going public with Prabhupada was NOT poisoned."

with kind regards,
Chaitanya Simha dasa

p.s. "Is it any wonder that the highly intelligent, highly educated devotees (with college degrees) at ISKCON Bangalore want nothing to do with us?"
...thas right prabhu, how can anyone want to do anything with u if u believe that the Russians went to the moon!...u can believe a pile of shit load as much as u want...

p.s. im sorry Larry, im not a formal Iskcon Bangalore member.

[larry freeman]

are you saying the highly educated Indian devotees at Iskcon Bangalore DO believe Prabhupad WAS poisoned?

what is their public position on His poisoning?

http://community.webtv.net/lakshmi/TheLakshmiSampradaya

---

From: matchl...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:03:15 +0530

Subject: Re: Bhakti Charu Swami on Correcting ISKCON's Guru System
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

"If Krishna wants to kill me then no one can save me; if Krishna wants to save me then no one can kill me!"

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[larry freeman]

are you saying the highly educated devotees at Iskcon Bangalore believe that the US and Russia 

did NOT go to the moon?

and that if the 'western' devotees believe we did not go to the moon?

and that if the 'western' devotees believe that Prabhupad was NOT poisoned,

that then they will think the 'western' devotees are too naive to be bothered to be dealt with?

thank you

http://community.webtv.net/lakshmi/TheLakshmiSampradaya

---

From: matchl...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:03:15 +0530

Subject: Re: Bhakti Charu Swami on Correcting ISKCON's Guru System
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

I've never heard them even bring up the subject, have you? They have lots of money and lots of connections, but obviously they are not convinced that we have a strong enough case to actually convict anyone.

I think they are too busy preaching Krishna conscious philosophy to be bothered with it one way or the other.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Russia never went to the moon! If anyone was the most motivated to say that the US never went to the moon either, it would be them. But they never said that. They admit that the US beat them to the moon, and that the USSR moon landing program was a complete failure. They admit it!

The ISKCON Bangalore devotees have better things to do than to bother with a bunch of conspiracy theorists who never do anything practical to help spread Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement all over the world, but who, instead, simply engage in idle speculation.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Matchless Gift]

as far as i know, devotees in Bangalore are struggling for a decade just to keep their temple. ...just to stay a live.... at the same time feeding 1 million souls

Poison court case and/or BBT court case and/or Child abuse case are a spacial commodity to go for.

If Bangalore devotees had a lots of money in truth, as well as time and energy ... they would have started all of those long time ago.

this is my opinion

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Jayapataka is a major thorn in their sides. If there was any possible way to nail Jayapataka on murder charges they would have done it.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[larry freeman]

what i am 'getting' here, in communications,

both public,

and private,

is that intelligent Indian Bangalore devotees,

are well aware of Prabhupad's poisoning,

and the moon hoax;

but, out of many reasons,

(including maybe 'necessity': including financially);

are not posturing,

publically,

on these topics.

thank you,

http://community.webtv.net/lakshmi/TheLakshmiSampradaya

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 09:09:37 -0400

Subject: Re: Bhakti Charu Swami on Correcting ISKCON's Guru System
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Matchless Gift]

the only "possible way to nail Jayapataka on murder charges"


Billy the Kid: Henry Hill!

   Hanry Hill: Yeah.

Billy the Kid: Howdy.

[bang]

Billy the Kid: ...By the way, you are under arrest :)))


excerpted from "Young Guns" 1988

reference point:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7p377_Og2M&feature=related



but no need for that cose Krishna is already nailing JPS pretty good

[Matchless Gift]

dear prabhus...Hare Krishna

for your information
on this all auspicious ocassion of Sri Krishna Janmasthami as well as for Srila Prabhupada's divine appearance day, 5 new young bhaktas joined the temple on Hare Krishna Hill this week (Bangalore, India).

may u all have Happy JANMASTHAMI

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Great news! Very auspicious timing.

I wonder if they would be willing to finance an ISKCON Bangalore branch temple in Hawaii, for example.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Matchless Gift]

Hare Krishna dear Pratyatosa prabhu!

pamho...All Glories to Srila Prabhupada !

in my humble opinion Bangalore devotees have infrastructure, men power, energy and spirit to do wonders all around the world.
they are following 4 regs and chanting 16 rounds strictly...i could not find a single fault with them except maybe 'few'... like one for example... adding a 'flute' to Daily Deity Darshan Greetings Yamuna's Govindam Adi Purushna prayers... and few others perhaps...

BUT with all of u on this forum...i have found millions of faults...U are all truly an ocean of faults, begining with Bh Greg(ocean of stupidity).

my humble request is to you all please unite with devotees in Bangalore...please
they are much younger than you, still they respect u, and just like youngsters sometimes misbehave and/or are stabborn and/or have 'own ways' of doing things plese forgive them...but they have the spirit and the means to help...

regarding 'unity' the best course is, in my humble opinoin, to unite with devotees in bangalore...forget the other ISKCON and people like Bh Greg with no brain substance left

ys
Chaitanya Simha dasa

[mark]

Telling people they are full of an ocean of faults, and then thinking
that you can use this "observation" of yours as leverage to shame
these very people into doing what you think they should under the
guise of "unity" do is a childish and ineffective tactic of a person
who is obviously not receiving intelligence from the Sweet Lord.

You must have been born in a communitst country and can't get that
stupidity out of your conditioning.

You don't want unity. You want blind conformity. You don't have a
clue as to what inspires true unity of purpose among fellows. If what
you have to offer is so wonderful, you wouldn't have to use such poor
tactics to convince others to see the merits of your idea.

Take your fault finding under the guise of unification someplace where
you might get some dumb desperate sheep-like disciples to follow your
sorry ass to hell. I suggest a ghetto in a communist country to
start. Or maybe you would learn your lesson more quickly in Saudi
Arabia. Go tell them they are full of faults.

On Aug 16, 1:03 am, Matchless Gift <matchlessg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hare Krishna dear Pratyatosa prabhu!
>
> pamho...All Glories to Srila Prabhupada !
>
> in my humble opinion Bangalore devotees have infrastructure, men power,

> energy and *spirit* to do wonders all around the world.

> they are following 4 regs and chanting 16 rounds strictly...i could not find
> a single fault with them except maybe 'few'... like one for example...
> adding a 'flute' to Daily Deity Darshan Greetings Yamuna's Govindam Adi
> Purushna prayers... and few others perhaps...
>
> BUT with all of u on this forum...i have found millions of faults...U are
> all truly an ocean of faults, begining with Bh Greg(ocean of stupidity).
>
> my humble request is to you all please unite with devotees in
> Bangalore...please
> they are much younger than you, still they respect u, and just like
> youngsters sometimes misbehave and/or are stabborn and/or have 'own ways' of
> doing things plese forgive them...but they have the spirit and the means to
> help...
>
> regarding 'unity' the best course is, in my humble opinoin, to unite with
> devotees in bangalore...forget the other ISKCON and people like Bh Greg with
> no brain substance left
>
> ys
> Chaitanya Simha dasa
>
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <
>

> pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Great news! Very auspicious timing.
>
> > I wonder if they would be willing to finance an ISKCON Bangalore branch
> > temple in Hawaii, for example.
>
> > Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Chaitanya Simha Dasa, either you apologize for saying that the members of this forum have millions of faults or you are banned from this forum. Take your pick.

You have 48 hours to decide.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Group Owner

[Matchless Gift]

i do apologize to all of u prabhus

and yes

please remove me from this forum

[gaura...@gmail.com]

Dear Prabhus,

PAMHO AGTSP!

Not convinced if this is Prabhupada's approach, see below, how to settle a dispute among Vaishnavas? Theologians, scholars of religions, behavioral science, academic research on religious terrorism - worldwide a couple of thousand non-Vaishnavas are meanwhile watching how the aggression potential between those camps is gradually rising. Could be that Richard Dawkin's global atheist movement even pays for it to get to a toughened stance of willingness for violence among the Vaishnavas?
Remember, the philosophy of Vaishnavism is the worst enemy of Western governments and requires great empathy to implement.
ISKCON leaders gradually avoiding to show up at puplic events like San Francisco Ratha Yatra. But not because they respect the Prabhupadanugas, they rather figure of getting sniped.

In sum there should be a group of Prabhupadanugas who present another approach then hate speech. Of course, calling a spate a spate is not hate speech, but how to explain it to the non-Vaishnava newspapers? You can't with articles on the Sampradaya Sun! Karmi newspapers rather want to see Vaishnavism right on this list of terrorist organizations, breeding grounds of hatred, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations
For example, a few wrong words and Prabhupada would have lost the hippies. When implemeting Vaishnavism, things dangle on a string.

ys
Gaurakishore das



 You Are the Problem, Bhakti-Caru Swami

BY: RASAPREMA DASA

Aug 18, HOLLAND (SUN) — Bhakti Caru Swami does illustrate the major problem in ISKCON in his recent essay, “Correcting ISKCON’s Guru System”, but not in the way he thinks. Yes, the actual problem is that the ISKCON oligarchy live in cuckoo-land and in that land of la-la they are dancing with the pixies, who apparently are giving them all sorts of lovely ideas, not.

Now with a title like “Correcting ISKCON’s Guru System”, you might expect something at least a little bit useful. But, no. What do we get as the solution? We must all recognise that “everything in ISKCON, including even all the devotees, belongs to Srila Prabhupada”.

Wonderful sentiment to catch our hearts and make them flutter, but how is that relevant to our GBC concocted guru-by-rubber-stamp system that has crippled ISKCON with a series of bogus pretender ‘gurus’? Is this a practical solution, or just a distraction?

What Bhakti Caru Swami is really saying is, “Let’s not change a thing. I’ve made it to the top of the ISKCON food chain. Let’s deflect any evil critics with sentiment and irrelevant generalities.” Does he really believe that we are as out of touch as he apparently is?

Now we are ready to believe that “everything belongs to Srila Prabhupada” is a new revelation to the GBC, thirty-two years after November 1977. And we are so happy to see Bhakti Caru has figured this out after thirty-odd years of discipleship, but is he so lost in dreamland that he thinks by mouthing such insipidity he is fooling us? We are impressed?

And that’s why we say, Bhakti Caru really illustrates the ISKCON problem: ISKCON is in the hands of people like him - that’s the problem. They are literally in a position to change all the deviations, but they do nothing and nothing year after year. Rather, they live surrounded by fawning neophytes who hang on their every word like it is the Absolute Truth. This situation is so 24/7 that they have lost touch with reality. Mix that with GBC policies that clearly deviate from Srila Prabhupada and you end up with guru-disconnected impotent leaders, whose biggest contribution is smelling garlands and posing as qualified acaryas. But let’s not forget the lip service like: “Everything belongs to Srila Prabhupada.” Oh how sweet, how dedicated…

Time was when what Srila Prabhupada said was the law in ISKCON. Not any more:

1. Srila Prabhupada condemned the guru-rubber-stamping - the GBC do it.
2. Srila Prabhupada condemned “centralising and bureaucracy” - the GBC do it with demonic compulsion.
3. Srila Prabhupada forbid salaries for devotees - the GBC ignore and allow it - just stay a yes-man.
4. Srila Prabhupada ordered all his disciples to continue the disciplic succession - the GBC exclude them, but rather foist on us the Super-Guru.
5. Srila Prabhupada wanted localised management - the GBC want to control everything.
6. Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to exemplify the standards of spiritual practice - the GBC have produce some of the most degraded persons in Vaisnava history, force them on ISKCON, and then cover-up for them when they go crazy for imitating paramahamsas.
7. Srila Prabhupada treated everyone as valuable - the GBC default to threats, bullying and murder of critics.
8. Srila Prabhupada wanted all devotees to be educated in his books - the GBC has made education into a business.
9. Srila Prabhupada wanted minimal punctuation and spelling corrections to his books - the BBT editors Jayadvaita and Dravida have gone hyperactive nuts and can’t leave a word or sentence alone. The GBC do nothing.

Readers are invited to add to the list and send to Bhakti Caru Swami. But what will he do? The big zero, as he has done since 1977. Maybe a few more platitudes, maybe another essay telling us we shouldn’t fault-find and be envious. As Bhakti Caru said on the vyasasana in Mayapur, ‘we should not be envious of him being worshiped - our time will come’.

Well, Oh great soul, perhaps you might consider that we out here are not waiting to be worshiped. What we want is to see our leaders following Srila Prabhupada “without deviating an inch”.

But we are not so stupid to think that is ever going to happen. It’s not going to happen, Bhakti Caru, is it? We know your agenda - maintain the exclusive rubber-stamped guru-club and turn ISKCON into some bastardized corporate institution of protocols with the GBC trying to figure out how to stay in power by either fooling or threatening the rest of us. But most importantly, the agenda is to ignore Srila Prabhupada’s clear instructions on so many matters and yet present oneself as his devoted follower. Yes, Kali-yuga is surely the Age of Hypocrisy. In the furtherance of this agenda, what we will get is more meetings, more bureaucracy, more obfuscation, more resolutions, no solutions, more flying around the globe, more accepting garlands, more sweet talk, and more GBC ignored deviation from the instructions of Srila Prabhupada by you and your rubber-stamped guru-club and cronies.

And when did this ‘I’m the successor exclusive guru’ club start? It started while Srila Prabhupada was on the planet. In Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada called for all his disciples to come and see him. This was tantamount to a firm declaration by Srila Prabhupada that he was now surely leaving; he wanted a final meeting with his disciples to glance upon them one more time as any departing father would want of his children. And what was the GBC reaction? Did they realise the importance to Srila Prabhupada and all their godbrothers of this final wish of the great acarya? No, they only realised that Srila Prabhupada was now leaving and they had better get the situation under control, and that meant no more godbrothers around. They realised that they had better get the big lie that they had been appointed by Srila Prabhupada prepared. They realised that now was the time they had longed for: “I’m the new acarya! Appointed and the same as Prabhupada!” What a lying bunch of pretenders. And from then until today, the GBC has been a cursed bunch of deviants.

So Bhakti Caru, keep dreaming away and smelling the flowers, but remember you are fooling only yourself and your befuddled disciples.

2009/8/16 Matchless Gift <matchl...@gmail.com>