FW: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
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larry freeman p
Dec 15, 2009, 10:49:46 PM12/15/09
to ista gosthi
here are some more quotes from the Memories Series of films,
of Siddanta das,
of ITV,
#26 is one interview only:
of Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaj,
remembering his last meeting with Prabhupad,
just a few days before Prabhupad's departure
To: Vaisnav...@yahoogroups.com
From: Pandu1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:13:38 -0500
Subject: RE: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
To: Vaisnav...@yahoogroups.com
From: Pandu1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:13:38 -0500
Subject: RE: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
Copied from, Our Srila Prabhupada, a Friend to All: Early Contemporaries Remember Him, an excerpt from Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaj describing some of his memories of Srila Prabhupada:
“Once I said to him, ‘Maharaja, you should survive for ten more years.’ He answered, ‘How can I survive? You see my pulse.’ I saw that his pulse was not moving. I said, ‘Unless you stay, these Western disciples will not unite. They are strong-headed and they will fight. You must put them in line with our tradition. Previously I said, ‘Maharaja, you have established some gurus but Guru must be one.’ He said, ‘I have not selected. Only rtviks to act in my place now.’ I said, After your demise they will be gurus. Unless you bless a guru to sit on the Vyasaasana, they must go down.’ He said, ‘What to do? Everything is Krsna’s will.’ Then after some time in Vrndavana he passed away."
From: Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ancientvarnasramanism
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:20 PM
To: Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
"Quote-
HH BV Puri Maharaja said, "You should have appointed only one.....when You are
gone, they will not be satisfied as Ritviks, and will declare themselves as
"regular" Gurus, and they will fight.".....Srila Prabhupada replied..."What can
I do....IT IS UP TO KRISHNA!"
[here Srila Prabhupada agrees with HH BV Puri Maharaja, about the ritvik system
intending to be after "when you are gone."]
This is Srila Prabhupada's key solution to the whole problem. Only Krishna can
change it, we can't. We can't do more than Srila Prabhupada, we can't argue them
into change, or yell at them to change ... its up to Krishna. Krishna is in
their hearts, some of us listen to Krishna in the heart, some of us don't.
When we try to change things via the kali-yuga modus operand - via
argumentation, quarrel, anger, then we can't hear Krishna in the heart. Anger
blocks the communication with Krishna in the heart. The personality of Kali uses
our anger to keep us in illusion and divided."
That is a fascinating quote you brought up from Prabhupada. I had never seen that one but it shows you Prabhupada knew exactly what was going on. I think you hit the nail on the head that argumentation and anger causes loss of communication with Krishna through the supersoul. The supersoul is the key but most of the living guru type of advocates want to be the supersoul for their followers and dictate to them. The results are disastrous when the dictator is less than perfect. From reading Prabhupada I never get the sense that he was a dictator but a teacher and wanted to teach everyone about the supersoul and our individual connection to it.
In Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com, "vishoka_108" <vishoka@...> wrote:
>
>
> Cooperate with reality
>
> Haribol,
>
> Mahaksa said the order to cooperate is foremost. I say ok, we should cooperate with the reality of what is going on. We try to change the reality, but we can't, because we are very small.
>
> If some devotees are against the ritvik process, it will still go on regardless of resistance, and visa versa, the guru situation goes on despite whatever, so Srila Prabhupada didn't want us to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Brothers tend to fight, but he doesn't like this extreme division and nastiness in his society.
>
> Srila Prabhupada would always cooperate with the reality of things that could not be changed and push on. Srila Prabhupada said that every Kali-yuga, the same things repeat themselves. From this we assume that in every Kali-yuga there's a Buddha and incarnations of Krishna, and there's Vaisnava movements, one is world wide, started by a great Vaisnava. And, there will always be neophytes jumping to diksa guru in Kali-yuga. This was a situation of kanistha and madhyama gurus happening over and over again, in every Kali-yuga, and so Srila Prabhupada knew that, and he expected it to happen in his movement. This is vividly seen in the conversation with BV Puri M, wherein, Srila Prabhupada said to BV Puri M, he knew they would jump to guru and be kanistha and madhyama gurus and he said "What can I do? its up to Krishna!" In this way, Srila Prabhupada was saying that even he couldn't stop that situation. So, how can we stop it?
>
> Quote-
> HH BV Puri Maharaja said, "You should have appointed only one.....when You are gone, they will not be satisfied as Ritviks, and will declare themselves as "regular" Gurus, and they will fight.".....Srila Prabhupada replied..."What can I do....IT IS UP TO KRISHNA!"
>
> [here Srila Prabhupada agrees with HH BV Puri Maharaja, about the ritvik system intending to be after "when you are gone."]
>
> This is Srila Prabhupada's key solution to the whole problem. Only Krishna can change it, we can't. We can't do more than Srila Prabhupada, we can't argue them into change, or yell at them to change ... its up to Krishna. Krishna is in their hearts, some of us listen to Krishna in the heart, some of us don't.
>
> When we try to change things via the kali-yuga modus operand - via argumentation, quarrel, anger, then we can't hear Krishna in the heart. Anger blocks the communication with Krishna in the heart. The personality of Kali uses our anger to keep us in illusion and divided.
>
> Krishna is the only way to really change the hearts and minds of devotees, as Srila Prabhupada said, "Its up to Krishna." So Krishna is telling us what to do, and we need to listen. There are two birds in the tree, one tastes bitter fruits, the other is the dearmost friend, giving instructions, waiting for the other bird to turn and listen.
>
> We have to cultivate an atmosphere of goodness in our society in order for Krishna to work as supersoul and change the hearts of devotees. Devotees will have to be humble and listen to Krishna in the heart, for Him to impart the realization that their feet aren't worshipable.
>
> If a certain guru is really uttama, and Krsna is acknowledging in his heart that he is uttama, and he ordered by Prabhupada to be diksa guru, then bravo, all glories to him, that's great, but we all know the reality. If he down talks Srila Prabhupada's plan for ritvik acharyas, then he's not uttama, he isn't even kanistha.
>
> If they insist that kanistha and madhyama gurus are ok, we say ok, no use yelling at them. Fighting only increases the anger, and blocks the via medium of Krishna in the heart. Better to opt for unity in diversity, and pray to Krishna to change our hearts, and meanwhile we try to cooperate with harinama, festivals, prasadam so on. Better to follow example of Bangalore devotees, just do what Prabhupada wants, and try to avoid the fighting and arguing. We can cooperate on that level, and pray to Krishna for the rest to change. Hare Krishna, ys Vishoka dasa
>
> ps I may be out of sync, haven't been able to keep up, my last day off we had a power outage, I usually post once a week, on days off.
>
HH BV Puri Maharaja said, "You should have appointed only one.....when You are
gone, they will not be satisfied as Ritviks, and will declare themselves as
"regular" Gurus, and they will fight.".....Srila Prabhupada replied..."What can
I do....IT IS UP TO KRISHNA!"
[here Srila Prabhupada agrees with HH BV Puri Maharaja, about the ritvik system
intending to be after "when you are gone."]
This is Srila Prabhupada's key solution to the whole problem. Only Krishna can
change it, we can't. We can't do more than Srila Prabhupada, we can't argue them
into change, or yell at them to change ... its up to Krishna. Krishna is in
their hearts, some of us listen to Krishna in the heart, some of us don't.
When we try to change things via the kali-yuga modus operand - via
argumentation, quarrel, anger, then we can't hear Krishna in the heart. Anger
blocks the communication with Krishna in the heart. The personality of Kali uses
our anger to keep us in illusion and divided."
That is a fascinating quote you brought up from Prabhupada. I had never seen that one but it shows you Prabhupada knew exactly what was going on. I think you hit the nail on the head that argumentation and anger causes loss of communication with Krishna through the supersoul. The supersoul is the key but most of the living guru type of advocates want to be the supersoul for their followers and dictate to them. The results are disastrous when the dictator is less than perfect. From reading Prabhupada I never get the sense that he was a dictator but a teacher and wanted to teach everyone about the supersoul and our individual connection to it.
In Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com, "vishoka_108" <vishoka@...> wrote:
>
>
> Cooperate with reality
>
> Haribol,
>
> Mahaksa said the order to cooperate is foremost. I say ok, we should cooperate with the reality of what is going on. We try to change the reality, but we can't, because we are very small.
>
> If some devotees are against the ritvik process, it will still go on regardless of resistance, and visa versa, the guru situation goes on despite whatever, so Srila Prabhupada didn't want us to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Brothers tend to fight, but he doesn't like this extreme division and nastiness in his society.
>
> Srila Prabhupada would always cooperate with the reality of things that could not be changed and push on. Srila Prabhupada said that every Kali-yuga, the same things repeat themselves. From this we assume that in every Kali-yuga there's a Buddha and incarnations of Krishna, and there's Vaisnava movements, one is world wide, started by a great Vaisnava. And, there will always be neophytes jumping to diksa guru in Kali-yuga. This was a situation of kanistha and madhyama gurus happening over and over again, in every Kali-yuga, and so Srila Prabhupada knew that, and he expected it to happen in his movement. This is vividly seen in the conversation with BV Puri M, wherein, Srila Prabhupada said to BV Puri M, he knew they would jump to guru and be kanistha and madhyama gurus and he said "What can I do? its up to Krishna!" In this way, Srila Prabhupada was saying that even he couldn't stop that situation. So, how can we stop it?
>
> Quote-
> HH BV Puri Maharaja said, "You should have appointed only one.....when You are gone, they will not be satisfied as Ritviks, and will declare themselves as "regular" Gurus, and they will fight.".....Srila Prabhupada replied..."What can I do....IT IS UP TO KRISHNA!"
>
> [here Srila Prabhupada agrees with HH BV Puri Maharaja, about the ritvik system intending to be after "when you are gone."]
>
> This is Srila Prabhupada's key solution to the whole problem. Only Krishna can change it, we can't. We can't do more than Srila Prabhupada, we can't argue them into change, or yell at them to change ... its up to Krishna. Krishna is in their hearts, some of us listen to Krishna in the heart, some of us don't.
>
> When we try to change things via the kali-yuga modus operand - via argumentation, quarrel, anger, then we can't hear Krishna in the heart. Anger blocks the communication with Krishna in the heart. The personality of Kali uses our anger to keep us in illusion and divided.
>
> Krishna is the only way to really change the hearts and minds of devotees, as Srila Prabhupada said, "Its up to Krishna." So Krishna is telling us what to do, and we need to listen. There are two birds in the tree, one tastes bitter fruits, the other is the dearmost friend, giving instructions, waiting for the other bird to turn and listen.
>
> We have to cultivate an atmosphere of goodness in our society in order for Krishna to work as supersoul and change the hearts of devotees. Devotees will have to be humble and listen to Krishna in the heart, for Him to impart the realization that their feet aren't worshipable.
>
> If a certain guru is really uttama, and Krsna is acknowledging in his heart that he is uttama, and he ordered by Prabhupada to be diksa guru, then bravo, all glories to him, that's great, but we all know the reality. If he down talks Srila Prabhupada's plan for ritvik acharyas, then he's not uttama, he isn't even kanistha.
>
> If they insist that kanistha and madhyama gurus are ok, we say ok, no use yelling at them. Fighting only increases the anger, and blocks the via medium of Krishna in the heart. Better to opt for unity in diversity, and pray to Krishna to change our hearts, and meanwhile we try to cooperate with harinama, festivals, prasadam so on. Better to follow example of Bangalore devotees, just do what Prabhupada wants, and try to avoid the fighting and arguing. We can cooperate on that level, and pray to Krishna for the rest to change. Hare Krishna, ys Vishoka dasa
>
> ps I may be out of sync, haven't been able to keep up, my last day off we had a power outage, I usually post once a week, on days off.
>
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No Mail & Special Notice = removal. Keep addy's CURRENT or they'll have to be REMOVED manually (hurts eyes!)
All links posted must be in synch with group purpose.
Re: [Digest #..] MODIFY topic so all can relate.
No "unsubscribe" messages. Follow Yahoo's instructions below.
We're a "Prabhupada" group. Always use Vaisnava etiquette, engage in civil discussion devoid of hurting others feelings.
Women, join Vaisnavi's 4 SP
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaisnavisForPrabhupada
If you haven't read these kindly do so now:
Prospectus pg
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaisnavacouncil/message/3649
Violations
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaisnavacouncil/message/4014
Important! AXIOMS
http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/vasinava_council_archives.htm
My wife's Inspiration Newsletter
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InspirationNewsletter
And: "The 1 & only Question"
http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/visoka/One_question.htm
DIPIKAPEDIA: Devotee Wikipedia. http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/visoka/Phil_exposition.htm
Don't let these scare you away! They're just to keep peace. Post & let us hear from you! Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
DISCLAIMER: Any 3rd party postings, files or other communications do not necessarily represent opinions, beliefs, or positions of Vaisnava Council owner, myself, Visoka dasa. I do my best to moderate. However I don't always have time to read every paragraph of every post, file; & assume no responsibility for outrageous philosophical claims I may have missed or not missed in these materials. Further I can't always edit, control, review for truth, accuracy, or screen for defamation in all posts. Its not my job to answer & defeat all philosophical points in every single post, nor do I have time. I humbly request everyone to be responsible for content of their writings & honor the rules of this forum. Report any misconduct to me. Hare Krishna. Y.s, Visoka das
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larry freeman p
Dec 15, 2009, 10:52:43 PM12/15/09
to ista gosthi
Subject: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
Haribol,
recently I had to switch from geocities to yahoo web hosting and it takes me a while to find my old websites. Below, I just found a site, which may be pertinent to discussion. Otherwise, I'm not sure, is the veda base only the recorded statements of Prabhupada? Is there never a second person witness statement in veda base. Like KC, his books going for 10k, is that in veda base? Personally I do not find it hard to believe this statement of BV Puri M, recorded on video. Number one, would he make up this, does he not remember, is he senile, so on.
I don't think so, my opinion. Also, all the elements of the conversation, which part seems to be bogus? Hardly none of the elements, IMHO. Like, Prabhupada knew that they would jump to guru, very believable. He knew. Could he stop that? Its reasonable to believe that he said he could not stop it. and "its up to Krsna," very believable. So on, the below might be pertinent, ys vishoka
ps, I might recycle some of these old webs, old posts.
The assertion by HH BV Puri Maharaja
Re-construction of Iskcon history #1
Devotee_1: We will examine several documents and witness reports on the guru issue, and we will use some basic critical historian methods to illuminate our understanding. For example, we apply these methods to various documents and assertions, such as the assertion by HH BV Puri Maharaja and others, and see how many affirm each other, which gives us a probability curve.
First the Maharaja's assertion-
HH BV Puri Maharaja said,"You should have appointed only one.....when You are gone, they will not be satisfied as Ritviks, and will declare themselves as "regular" Gurus, and they will fight.".....Srila Prabhupada replied..."What can I do....IT IS UP TO KRISHNA!"
In this case, we have a high certainty of understanding that HH BV Puri Maharaja got his information from an authoritative source, Srila Prabhupada, as he was in conversation with Srila Prabhupada at that moment. HH BV Puri Maharaja did not imagine this information, by dint of the absurdity of considering this option. In other words, it's absurd to think that a senior Vaisnava would manufacture such information, especially in the presence of Srila Prabhupada. Later, as we enter more assertions, we can cross-reference HH BV Puri Maharaja's assertion with them, as to determine probability.
Here HH BV Puri Maharaja asserts a definite understanding of the future time-frame, the time after Srila Prabhupada departs, by the words, "when you are gone." HH BV Puri Maharaja further asserts the idea of a ritvik representation for the future, by his words, "when You are gone, they will not be satisfied as Ritviks." Here HH BV Puri Maharaja is saying with no uncertainty, that Srila Prabhupada appointed them to be ritviks, and to function as such, after he is no longer with us. Certainty of this is highly probable because Srila Prabhupada was right there with HH BV Puri Maharaja in conversation, and Srila Prabhupada would have certainly corrected HH BV Puri Maharaja on this point, saying something like, "no, I did not appoint them as ritviks, after I depart." Srila Prabhupada would not have allowed HH BV Puri Maharaja to make such an erroneous statement in the course of their conversation, if it was false. So, here it seems that Srila Prabhupada agrees with HH BV Puri Maharaja, about the ritvik system intending to be after departure, or "when you are gone."
Devotee_2: Yes, this logic is good, but still we have the "human tape-recorder" situation, and therefore we have the degrees of probability in question.
Devotee_1: Sure, there's always a chance of uncertainty, therefore, we shall cross-reference all these assertions, after we have compiled a certain number of them, to assess probability.
Add- has to be two mis-readings of conversation, astronomically improbable. ….
Reconstruction of Iskcon History #2- insult to Srila Prabhupada?
Next assertion topic- There is a point that Srila Prabhupada seems to not have a vedic source for a ritvik system, which is a main argument of the Iskcon leaders.
Devotee_2: By using this two source method, either an external source, or imagination, we can also bring up the question of the source for having a ritvik system. This is a common argument, they say that there is no incident in vedic sources for the justification of having a ritvik system. They say that we cannot find the precedent for such a ritvik system.
Devotee_1: Listen to what you are saying. Not you personally, but listen to what they are saying. This is like saying that Srila Prabhupada concocted this ritvik system, this is an insult to Srila Prabhupada.
Devotee_2: I'm just trying to follow this protocol, which is either we have an external source, or it's coming from imagination.
Devotee_1: Right, but we will have to add a modification here, in this case. The 2 source protocol is for conditioned souls. We have an exception for the case of a pure devotee of Lord Krishna. A pure devotee of Krishna has a third source, which conditioned souls do not have, that is direct contact with Lord Krishna. Srila Prabhupada has said [researching this evidence] that he always consults with Lord Krishna before making a major decision, such as the future of initiations in Iskcon, thus the pure devotee is always authorized by the supreme authority, Lord Krishna . Lord Krishna is always dictating to Srila Prabhupada, in his heart. This is not true for conditioned souls. Since Srila Prabhupada did introduce the terms "officiating acharya" and "ritvik," we are confident that Lord Krishna is dictating in his heart, and Srila Prabhupada is consulting with Lord Krishna on this matter, therefore this is the 3rd source of information.
We do not know what happened in the previous last Kali-yuga, but we can assume it was the same as the present Kali-yuga, in that there will be many unqualified neophytes who want to jump to the position of guru, and cheat innocent people. Srila Prabhupada writes in Srimad Bhagavatam that each Kali-yuga repeats the same events over and over. Therefore it can be a reasonable assumption that similar ritvik systems were used in previous Kali-yugas, as a remedy for this problem. Lord Krishna knows this, as does Srila Prabhupada, and therefore Krishna and Srila Prabhupada are the decision makers, not the gbc conditioned souls. We already have similar systems of representation and complete shelter of the founder acharya in the Sri Sampradaya, and Madhva line.
Devotee_2: What they are protesting is the idea of a future, permanent ritvik system, not the temporary system that Srila Prabhupada set up.
Devotee_1: Well, that's the main issue, what was Srila Prabhupada's order, was it a temporary or future ritvik system? This is one of the principle aims of this exposition. But in principle, both are the same, because we don't see the precedent for even a temporary ritvik system. So, for neophyte disciples to demand a precedent from Srila Prabhupada for his ritvik system, either temporary or future, is an offense to Srila Prabhupada.
Precedence always has a first authority, the authority who sets the precedence, it doesn't just appear out of thin air. Therefore Srila Prabhupada may be the first authority who sets a precedence for a future ritvik system, or a temporary ritvik system for that matter. Whether he is the first or not, is immaterial, because he is our supreme authority in any case. The disciple cannot object to his decision, he simply must obey, or else he isn't a disciple. If he argues, then he is a rascal, not a disciple.
Devotee_2: They say that Srila Prabhupada only set up that system, because he was sick, and it was only temporary. So the question isn't that we are arguing with Srila Prabhupada, it is the time-frame nature of his ritvik system.
Devotee_1: That's the main point of this whole exposition. We will cover the assertion of him being sick, therefore the ritvik system, sometime soon.
--- In Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com, Howard Charles Best <hbest1@...> wrote:
>
> If this conversation actually took place, then it is very important
> information, but where is the proof? It's not in the VedaBase.
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (http://causelessmercy.com/ http://rtvik.com/
> http://pratyatosa.com/ http://feedacow.com/ http://llbest.com/)
Here HH BV Puri Maharaja asserts a definite understanding of the future time-frame, the time after Srila Prabhupada departs, by the words, "when you are gone." HH BV Puri Maharaja further asserts the idea of a ritvik representation for the future, by his words, "when You are gone, they will not be satisfied as Ritviks." Here HH BV Puri Maharaja is saying with no uncertainty, that Srila Prabhupada appointed them to be ritviks, and to function as such, after he is no longer with us. Certainty of this is highly probable because Srila Prabhupada was right there with HH BV Puri Maharaja in conversation, and Srila Prabhupada would have certainly corrected HH BV Puri Maharaja on this point, saying something like, "no, I did not appoint them as ritviks, after I depart." Srila Prabhupada would not have allowed HH BV Puri Maharaja to make such an erroneous statement in the course of their conversation, if it was false. So, here it seems that Srila Prabhupada agrees with HH BV Puri Maharaja, about the ritvik system intending to be after departure, or "when you are gone."
Devotee_2: Yes, this logic is good, but still we have the "human tape-recorder" situation, and therefore we have the degrees of probability in question.
Devotee_1: Sure, there's always a chance of uncertainty, therefore, we shall cross-reference all these assertions, after we have compiled a certain number of them, to assess probability.
Add- has to be two mis-readings of conversation, astronomically improbable. ….
Reconstruction of Iskcon History #2- insult to Srila Prabhupada?
Next assertion topic- There is a point that Srila Prabhupada seems to not have a vedic source for a ritvik system, which is a main argument of the Iskcon leaders.
Devotee_2: By using this two source method, either an external source, or imagination, we can also bring up the question of the source for having a ritvik system. This is a common argument, they say that there is no incident in vedic sources for the justification of having a ritvik system. They say that we cannot find the precedent for such a ritvik system.
Devotee_1: Listen to what you are saying. Not you personally, but listen to what they are saying. This is like saying that Srila Prabhupada concocted this ritvik system, this is an insult to Srila Prabhupada.
Devotee_2: I'm just trying to follow this protocol, which is either we have an external source, or it's coming from imagination.
Devotee_1: Right, but we will have to add a modification here, in this case. The 2 source protocol is for conditioned souls. We have an exception for the case of a pure devotee of Lord Krishna. A pure devotee of Krishna has a third source, which conditioned souls do not have, that is direct contact with Lord Krishna. Srila Prabhupada has said [researching this evidence] that he always consults with Lord Krishna before making a major decision, such as the future of initiations in Iskcon, thus the pure devotee is always authorized by the supreme authority, Lord Krishna . Lord Krishna is always dictating to Srila Prabhupada, in his heart. This is not true for conditioned souls. Since Srila Prabhupada did introduce the terms "officiating acharya" and "ritvik," we are confident that Lord Krishna is dictating in his heart, and Srila Prabhupada is consulting with Lord Krishna on this matter, therefore this is the 3rd source of information.
We do not know what happened in the previous last Kali-yuga, but we can assume it was the same as the present Kali-yuga, in that there will be many unqualified neophytes who want to jump to the position of guru, and cheat innocent people. Srila Prabhupada writes in Srimad Bhagavatam that each Kali-yuga repeats the same events over and over. Therefore it can be a reasonable assumption that similar ritvik systems were used in previous Kali-yugas, as a remedy for this problem. Lord Krishna knows this, as does Srila Prabhupada, and therefore Krishna and Srila Prabhupada are the decision makers, not the gbc conditioned souls. We already have similar systems of representation and complete shelter of the founder acharya in the Sri Sampradaya, and Madhva line.
Devotee_2: What they are protesting is the idea of a future, permanent ritvik system, not the temporary system that Srila Prabhupada set up.
Devotee_1: Well, that's the main issue, what was Srila Prabhupada's order, was it a temporary or future ritvik system? This is one of the principle aims of this exposition. But in principle, both are the same, because we don't see the precedent for even a temporary ritvik system. So, for neophyte disciples to demand a precedent from Srila Prabhupada for his ritvik system, either temporary or future, is an offense to Srila Prabhupada.
Precedence always has a first authority, the authority who sets the precedence, it doesn't just appear out of thin air. Therefore Srila Prabhupada may be the first authority who sets a precedence for a future ritvik system, or a temporary ritvik system for that matter. Whether he is the first or not, is immaterial, because he is our supreme authority in any case. The disciple cannot object to his decision, he simply must obey, or else he isn't a disciple. If he argues, then he is a rascal, not a disciple.
Devotee_2: They say that Srila Prabhupada only set up that system, because he was sick, and it was only temporary. So the question isn't that we are arguing with Srila Prabhupada, it is the time-frame nature of his ritvik system.
Devotee_1: That's the main point of this whole exposition. We will cover the assertion of him being sick, therefore the ritvik system, sometime soon.
--- In Vaisnavacouncil@yahoogroups.com, Howard Charles Best <hbest1@...> wrote:
>
> If this conversation actually took place, then it is very important
> information, but where is the proof? It's not in the VedaBase.
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (http://causelessmercy.com/ http://rtvik.com/
> http://pratyatosa.com/ http://feedacow.com/ http://llbest.com/)
__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE
.
__,_._,___
Sean Hartigan
Dec 16, 2009, 12:20:03 AM12/16/09
to istag...@googlegroups.com
This is a very interesting thread, thank you very much. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
.
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july9th
Dec 16, 2009, 5:13:56 PM12/16/09
to Prabhupadanuga
It is difficult to follow the above posts.
If I may add a few points.
HH Puri Maharaja while being a true gentleman is still one of Srila
Prabhupada's godbrothers.
"So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of
my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even
correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should
they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of
their temples. Please avoid them."
(Letter to: Visvakarma, 75-11-09)
Better to avoid such memories whenever possible.
Vishoka prabhu concludes by....
Prabhupada;
Satsvarūpa: Yeah, he criticized our Uttamaśloka. And then he said,
“Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they don’t engage in argumentation and debate.” So
Uttamaśloka said, “Yes, Lord Caitanya argued with Prakāśānanda.”
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good.
Satsvarūpa: But Swami Bon said, “No, He didn’t convert him by
argument, He converted him by the effulgence.”
Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) “But there was argument, rascal.” (laughter)
[...]
Prabhupāda: …men should be very strong to protest.[...]
(750630mw.den Conversations)
"men should be very strong to protest" this is what Srila Prabhupada
taught us also by his personal example.
We don't just leave it to Krishna to sort out the maya.
If I may add a few points.
HH Puri Maharaja while being a true gentleman is still one of Srila
Prabhupada's godbrothers.
"So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of
my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even
correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should
they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of
their temples. Please avoid them."
(Letter to: Visvakarma, 75-11-09)
Better to avoid such memories whenever possible.
Vishoka prabhu concludes by....
"> If they insist that kanistha and madhyama gurus are ok, we say ok,
no use
yelling at them. Fighting only increases the anger, and blocks the via
medium
of Krishna in the heart. Better to opt for unity in diversity, and
pray to
Krishna to change our hearts, and meanwhile we try to cooperate with
harinama,
festivals, prasadam so on. Better to follow example of Bangalore
devotees, just
do what Prabhupada wants, and try to avoid the fighting and arguing.
We can
cooperate on that level, and pray to Krishna for the rest to change.
Hare
Krishna, ys Vishoka dasa"
The quote above seems at odds with the following statements from Srila
no use
yelling at them. Fighting only increases the anger, and blocks the via
medium
of Krishna in the heart. Better to opt for unity in diversity, and
pray to
Krishna to change our hearts, and meanwhile we try to cooperate with
harinama,
festivals, prasadam so on. Better to follow example of Bangalore
devotees, just
do what Prabhupada wants, and try to avoid the fighting and arguing.
We can
cooperate on that level, and pray to Krishna for the rest to change.
Hare
Krishna, ys Vishoka dasa"
Prabhupada;
Satsvarūpa: Yeah, he criticized our Uttamaśloka. And then he said,
“Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they don’t engage in argumentation and debate.” So
Uttamaśloka said, “Yes, Lord Caitanya argued with Prakāśānanda.”
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good.
Satsvarūpa: But Swami Bon said, “No, He didn’t convert him by
argument, He converted him by the effulgence.”
Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) “But there was argument, rascal.” (laughter)
[...]
Prabhupāda: …men should be very strong to protest.[...]
(750630mw.den Conversations)
"men should be very strong to protest" this is what Srila Prabhupada
taught us also by his personal example.
We don't just leave it to Krishna to sort out the maya.
july9th
Dec 16, 2009, 6:19:01 PM12/16/09
to Prabhupadanuga
Further, to Vishoka prabhu's statement ....
And how can avoiding preaching that Srila Prabhupada is the Guru, be
“ok”?
What cooperation is that?
How can you have Krishna consciousness without the Guru, since Krishna
can only be reached by going through the bona fide Guru?
“[...] so one cannot approach the Supreme Lord without the transparent
via medium of the spiritual master. ”
(The Science of Self-Realisation, chapter 8)
And that spiritual master is Srila Prabhupada, not any unauthorised
pretender, whether inside or outside of ISKCON.
Vishoka further adds ...
"Better to follow example of Bangalore devotees, just do what
Prabhupada wants, and try to avoid the fighting and arguing."
Srila Prabhupada's mood is actually different, fighting for Srila
Prabhupada against those who oppose him as the Guru of ISKCON is the
most glorious:
“But be victorious to the opposing elements. Then you will praise your
Guru Maharaja nicely [...] But you have to fight. Then your Guru
Maharaja will be glorified.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 26/12/75)
"If they insist that kanistha and madhyama gurus are ok, we say ok,
[...]
And how can avoiding preaching that Srila Prabhupada is the Guru, be
“ok”?
What cooperation is that?
How can you have Krishna consciousness without the Guru, since Krishna
can only be reached by going through the bona fide Guru?
“[...] so one cannot approach the Supreme Lord without the transparent
via medium of the spiritual master. ”
(The Science of Self-Realisation, chapter 8)
And that spiritual master is Srila Prabhupada, not any unauthorised
pretender, whether inside or outside of ISKCON.
Vishoka further adds ...
"Better to follow example of Bangalore devotees, just do what
Prabhupada wants, and try to avoid the fighting and arguing."
Prabhupada against those who oppose him as the Guru of ISKCON is the
most glorious:
“But be victorious to the opposing elements. Then you will praise your
Guru Maharaja nicely [...] But you have to fight. Then your Guru
Maharaja will be glorified.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 26/12/75)
larry freeman p
Dec 16, 2009, 6:55:11 PM12/16/09
to ista gosthi
although Puri Maharaj is in reality another 'living' guru;
in this 'remembrance' film,
he is nearly 90.
still as an advocate of the 'living' guru,
if he was going to lie;
he would not at all have brought up that Prabhupad did in fact leave ritviks.
it is precisely his Gaudiya Math party line position,
that makes his remembrance of Prabhupad's leaving ritviks,
so plausible.
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:13:56 -0800
> Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: FW: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
> From: july9...@yahoo.com
> To: istag...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:13:56 -0800
> Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: FW: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
> From: july9...@yahoo.com
> To: istag...@googlegroups.com
july9th
Dec 16, 2009, 8:34:21 PM12/16/09
to Prabhupadanuga
Narayan Maharaja said similar;
Ravindra Svarupa: In fact, that word (ritvik) was not introduced by
Srila Prabhupada but by Tamal Krishna Goswami. Srila Prabhupada
himself said "officiating acarya".
Narayan Maharaja: Well, that can be done. He has told me like this.
(ISKCON JOURNAL)
Point is neither were interesting in helping carry out Srila
Prabhupada's order.
Being out to get disciples for themselves just like the ISKCONites.
Sadly, they will say anything just to ride the "gravy train."
On Dec 16, 11:55 pm, larry freeman p <laks...@webtv.net> wrote:
> although Puri Maharaj is in reality another 'living' guru;in this 'remembrance' film,he is nearly 90.still as an advocate of the 'living' guru,if he was going to lie;he would not at all have brought up that Prabhupad did in fact leave ritviks.it is precisely his Gaudiya Math party line position,that makes his remembrance of Prabhupad's leaving ritviks,so plausible.
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:13:56 -0800
> > Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: FW: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
> > From: july9th...@yahoo.com
> > Getting too many emails? Please go tohttp://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribeand change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
>
> > For more options, please go tohttp://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi
>
> > To cancel your membership, please send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
july9th
Jan 1, 2010, 9:51:54 AM1/1/10
to Prabhupadanuga
>"Memories Series of films,of Siddanta das,of ITV,#26 is one
interview only:of Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaj"
interview only:of Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaj"
Do you have the full transcript? or know who has?
On Dec 16 2009, 3:49 am, larry freeman p <laks...@webtv.net> wrote:
> here are some more quotes from the Memories Series of films,of Siddanta das,of ITV,#26 is one interview only:of Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaj,remembering his last meeting with Prabhupad,just a few days before Prabhupad's departure
> To: Vaisnavacoun...@yahoogroups.com
> From: Pandu108....@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:13:38 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Vaisnavacouncil] Re: Cooperate with reality
>
> Copied from, Our Srila Prabhupada, a Friend
> to All: Early Contemporaries Remember Him, an excerpt from Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaj describing
> some of his memories of Srila Prabhupada:
>
> “Once I said to him, ‘Maharaja,
> you should survive for ten more years.’ He answered, ‘How can I survive?
> You see my pulse.’ I saw that his pulse was not moving. I
> said, ‘Unless you stay, these Western disciples will not unite. They are
> strong-headed and they will fight. You must put them in line with our
> tradition. Previously I said, ‘Maharaja, you have established some gurus
> but Guru must be one.’ He said, ‘I have not selected. Only rtviks
> to act in my place now.’ I said, After your demise they will be gurus. Unless
> you bless a guru to sit on the Vyasaasana, they must go down.’ He said,
> ‘What to do? Everything is Krsna’s will.’ Then after some time in
> Vrndavana he passed away."
>
> From: Vaisnavacoun...@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Vaisnavacoun...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ancientvarnasramanism
>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:20 PM
>
> To: Vaisnavacoun...@yahoogroups.com
> In Vaisnavacoun...@yahoogroups.com,
> DIPIKAPEDIA: Devotee Wikipedia.http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/visoka/Phil_exposition.htm
>
> Don't let these scare you away! They're just to keep peace. Post & let us hear from you! Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
>
> DISCLAIMER: Any 3rd party postings, files or other communications do not necessarily represent opinions, beliefs, or positions of Vaisnava Council owner, myself, Visoka dasa. I do my best to moderate. However I don't always have time to read every paragraph of every post, file; & assume no responsibility for outrageous philosophical ...
>
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