[Prabhupadanuga] Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

[brenda macedo]

Yes, Sita was found "in the earth..." But what else do we know about her??   By the way, most of these accounts have been repeated in various forms by learned sages I've encountered from India... so it's not just believing in things I've read... Perhaps this insight was too scandelous from an ISKCON perspective...which takes everything literally... --- On Tue, 5/4/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote: From: Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter... To: "brenda macedo" <brenda...@yahoo.com> Cc: ange...@yahoo.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, angin...@yahoo.com, alice...@att.net, alexandre...@yahoo.ca, amey...@16108.com, bhaktat...@yahoo.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, cc...@yahoo.com, dasd...@aol.com, das...@streamyx.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gada...@yahoo.com, Gaur...@aol.com, gaura...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hansa...@rocketmail.com, hanto...@hotmail.com, has...@hotmail.com, hks...@juno.com, hms...@yahoo.com, jagat...@yahoo.com, jasm...@gmail.com, jlan...@live.com, july9...@yahoo.com, kamsa...@hotmail.com, khad...@wmconnect.com, krishn...@hotmail.com, krishn...@gmail.com, Krishn...@aol.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, kanha...@hotmail.com, krsn...@hotmail.com, kumud...@aol.com, limo...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, madhu...@gmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, markm...@yahoo.com, mystiq...@yahoo.com, nar...@yahoo.com, nityanan...@gmail.com, nrsimh...@gmail.com, pari...@btinternet.com, pdhed...@yahoo.com, praty...@gmail.com, prtha_d...@hotmail.com, pss...@juno.com, pg1...@netzero.net, radhika...@hotmail.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rbenav...@yahoo.es, rc...@earthlink.net, roupamanja...@gmail.com, shyama...@disciples.com, srimu...@yahoo.com, spiri...@mac.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, sunil...@yahoo.com, tamoha...@yahoo.ca, trancendent...@hotmail.co.uk, tulasim...@yahoo.de, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, urdh...@aol.com, yasod...@yahoo.com, zak...@earthlink.net, ugre...@gmail.com, vaishnava_t...@yahoo.com, valy...@yahoo.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, vikash...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, "dasarath" <dasa...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <hari...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <hari...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jaga...@hotmail.com>, lal...@gmail.com, malati...@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 3:18 PM Greg Jay (jay....@gmail.com) was added to your Guest List by their request | Delete this guest |

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[brenda macedo]

Dear All,   How come we were never taught in ISKCON that Sita was Ravana's daughter??   Comments appreciated...   Rajesvari     The War to Free Sita Lord Rama was an incarnation of Vishnu who ruled India a million years ago. His story is a tragedy that is told in the epic "Ramayana," by Valmiki. By an elaborate twist of fate, Rama's stepmother (an example an evil woman) acquired the power to banish Rama to the forest and install her own son on the throne. Rama went into exile along with his wife, Sita, and brother, Laksman, and established a hermitage in the Dandaka Forest. While living there, a witch named Surpanakha became angry with Sita and Rama. She wanted to marry Rama and felt that Sita was in the way, so she asked her brother, the Sri Lankan King Ravana, to kidnap Sita. Ravana sent Marici, a mystic yogi in the form of spotted dear, to distract Rama and Lakshman. Then while the men were gone, Ravana disguised himself as a sannyasi and came into the encampment on the pretense of begging alms. When Rama found out that Ravana had kidnapped Sita, He enlisted Hanuman (an incarnation of Shiva) and an army of monkeys to build a bridge from India to Sri Lanka. In Lanka, Rama fought a fierce battle and severed all ten of Ravana's heads with a single arrow. He rescued Sita and returned to Ayodhya, His capitol city in the north, to assume his rightful position as king. When Sita and Rama returned to Ayodhya, Sita successfully proved her purity by passing unharmed through a ring of fire. In this symbolic act, the fire god returned the real Sita to Rama. Still, certain citizens in the kingdom began to gossip about her, saying that Rama had broken the religious principles by accepting his wife, after she had been touched by another man. Swayed by the gossip about her, Rama sent Sita back into exile. Sita, who was pregnant, wandered in the forest until she reached the hermitage of the sage Valmiki (author of the Ramayana), who gave her shelter. The other sages criticized Valmiki, saying that if Sita was pure, her husband Rama wouldn't have cast her out. Thus Sita had to pass another test of purity to satisfy the sages. Purport Incest in the Story of Sita Parallels between Ravana and Oedipus The Fire God and Sita Ravana Cursed Eighteen Times Incest in the Story of Sita The fact that Sita could never regain her chastity and that she was eventually cast out of Lord Rama's palace is perhaps the most paradoxical ending of any story in Vedic literature. Clues to the meaning of this story can be found in the literature. A closer examination of the scriptures reveals that Ravana was actually Sita's father. Here is one version of the story: Ravana's mother-in-law advised him to kill his first child because according to her daughter's horoscope, her first-born would destroy his clan. Instead of killing the baby, he buried her in India. This story reflects the ancient practice of killing female babies. In the case of Sita, a farmer found the box and gave it to King Janaka, thus Sita was known as the daughter of Janaka. Through the act of kidnapping Sita, Ravana started the chain of events that would fulfill the astrological prophecy. Just as Oedipus was unaware that the king he killed was his father and the queen he married was his mother, Ravana was unaware that the woman he kidnapped was his daughter. Another version of the story casts Ravana in an even worse role. It was said that Ravana would terrorize the local forests and shoot arrows at sages who were sitting in meditation. He would take their blood from the arrow tip and save it in a pot. One time he stole some sacred milk from a sage who was doing penance to have a daughter like Lakshmi (Vishnu's consort). Ravana mixed the milk with the blood and gave the pot to his wife. She hated him for this, and growing discouraged with his behavior, tried to kill herself by drinking the mixture. Instead of dying she became pregnant with Sita and buried the fetus on King Janaka's land in India. In this version, Ravana is not the true father, but Sita was the child of Ravana's wife. This relationship describes the situation in ISKCON, in which the perpetrators were most often variations of father figures to their victims, rather than their actual biological fathers. Ravana's obsession with Sita was still a form of incest, since it was his wife's child. Parallels between Ravana and Oedipus Throughout the epic story, Ravana never learned that Sita was his daughter. Thus, his conscience is never stirred to face the sin of incest, as Oedipus faced his sins in the tragic drama Oedipus Rex. In that story, King Oedipus eventually learned that his father had sent him away to die as an infant, when an old shepherd who had rescued him recounts the circumstances that led up to his killing his father (the king) at a crossroads and marrying his mother (the queen). Shocked and guilty over the revelation of his true identity, Oedipus blinds himself and goes into a self-imposed exile. The second part of the drama, Oedipus in Colonus, portrays Oedipus living under a state-imposed exile, attempting to find meaning from the horrible experiences of his life. Rollo May, in his book, Cry for Myth, points out, "So far as I know, [Oedipus in Colonus] is never mentioned in psychoanalytic literature in America. . . . One reason for its neglect is that discussion of the integrative functions of myths in general tend to be omitted in psychoanalytic discussions." (p. 82) May also explains that Freud's interest in the first part of the drama, to the neglect of the second, is due to the cut and dry nature of the first story: "a consequence of . . . killing the father requires that we stop when these things are worked through, punishment meted out, and the situation accepted, as at the end of Oedipus Rex." (p. 82) However, ignoring the second part of the drama ignores the process that Oedipus went through in order to feel whole again. In Oedipus in Colonus, unlike Ravana, Oedipus learns to accept and bear responsibility for his life, and comes to terms with his identity as the perpetrator of incest and patricide. May explains that Oedipus' final conclusion is a reconciliation within himself, with the people he loves (especially his daughters from the incestuous marriage with his mother) and with the transcendent meaning of his life. It is doubtful that Sita every found out that Ravana was her father. Perhaps the sages informed her after she moved to the forest, but this is left unclear. Nevertheless, Sita's purity was forever tainted by Ravana's touch, and in a similar way, ISKCON's illicit, incestuous arranged marriages created many Sitas who may suffer to the ends of their lives for the sins of their fathers. The metaphor holds true for women outside of ISKCON, because abuse survivors of any religion undoubtedly had Ravanas in their families or extended families, that made their childhoods a frightening hell. Sita and the Fire God The scriptures say that a few days before Ravana kidnapped Sita, the fire god Agni appeared before Rama to inform him of all that would take place, including his destiny and duty to kill Ravana. In order to protect Sita through this ordeal, the fire god took her away and replaced her with the maya (illusory) Sita. Thus, because of the fire god's intervention, any abuse or molestation would be perpetrated upon maya-Sita. This serves as a good analogy for disassociated identity disorder, common to most abuse sufferers. While abuse is occurring, the victim may leave their body and feel that the molester was attacking someone else. Some victims become fixated at the moment of abuse and experience recurring feelings of disassociation. They may look back on the abuse and actually believe that it happened to someone else. This is a function of denial, which protects victims from facing events that were too traumatic to bare. The recovery process involves accepting what happened, often through a series of horrifying "flashbacks" as the truth sinks in. After recovery, the abuse survivor can live with what happened, but the process often takes years of hard work with a therapist. Ravana Cursed Eighteen Times King Ravana was an incarnation of one of the fallen gatekeepers of Vishnu, the same soul that abused Prahlada in the story of Lord Nrsimha. In ISKCON, the abusers who sanctioned arranged incestuous marriages were the same men who tolerated child abuse in the boys' boarding schools. Ravana was a foul character who had offended many women. The perpetrators and conspirators in ISKCON were also despised for acts that were similar to Ravana's. During his career as a tyrant, eighteen sages and gods cursed Ravana for his crude behavior. Here are seven of the curses (they all came true during the war of Sri Lanka): Ravana raped a woman who was meditating in the wilderness and she cursed him, "You and your family will be ruined by Lord Narayana [a form of Vishnu] on account of me." Ravana once called Lord Shiva a monkey and Shiva cursed him that monkeys would destroy his kingdom. The sage Dattatreya kept a pot of water, purified with mantras, for washing the head of his guru. Ravana used the water to wash his own head and the sage cursed him that monkeys would walk on his head. Ravana once lifted the wife of Atri by the hair, so Atri cursed that Ravana would have to witness monkeys dragging his wife by the hair. Ravana humiliated some daughters from a brahmana family who were bathing in the sea. Their mothers cursed Ravana's wife to be insulted by monkeys. Ravana tried to humiliate Lord Brahma's daughter so Brahma cursed him that all ten of his heads would be broken if he ever again touched an unwilling woman. One time Narada Muni refused to explain the meaning of "Om" to Ravana and Ravana threatened to cut out Narada's tongue. Narada then cursed him that a man would cut off all ten of his heads. The other incidents also involved rape, humiliating a woman, or harming peaceful brahmanas. ISKCON's toxic sannyasis and their codependents also did many abusive things. If they believe in their own scriptures, the should be aware that the story of Ravana shows that ultimately perpetrators must atone for every single offense.   Sometimes people find these files because they searched for "Krishna Childrens Stories," or similar keywords. The purpose of this section is to point out parts of the scriptures that address the subject of child abuse. For example, King Kamsa killed Krishna's older siblings and tried to kill Krishna. Another example is the "School of the Demons," where the innocent soul Prahlad was sent to be tortured. This page draws examples from the scriptures that warn of child abuse and its consequences. One theme is that the perpetrators are ultimately punished for their crimes. To learn more about child abuse, click here.     Ramayana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Textuality| Characters| Synopsis| Influence on culture and art Article about the Ramayana, the ancient Sanskrit epic attributed to the poet Valmiki. ... In Ramakien, Sita is the daughter of Ravana and Mandodari (T'os'akanth (=Dasakanth) and ... According to mythology there is a common consensus that Sita is daughter of Ravana... Mainly two stories are behind it... 1)Ravan had no child. So, he along with his queen Mandodri went to forest and did intense tapasya. Lord Shiva appeared as jogi and gave him a mango to be eaten by his queen after certain rituals. Ravan, instead, ate the fruit himself and became pregnant. Eventually, Ravan, out of public shame, gives birth to Sita through nasal sneeze (Sita meaning sneeze in Kannada). Ravan, out of sheer disgust then leaves Sita in the fields of king Janak! 2)Ravan had killed many saints and buried their "blood and remains" in the ground. When King Janak digged the ground he found the "blood and remains" in the form of a girl and he named her "Sita". Thus in one way she was the daughter of Ravana, since she born because of his karma(deeds) only. Before dying saints(those killed by Ravana) cursed him that they will become the reason of his death and it happened also since he(Ravana) was killed coz of Sita who in one form represented those saints only...    ____________________ Who is the true father of sita ? Best Answer - Chosen by Voters Ravana was actually Sita's father. 2 years ago 67% 2 Votes Report Abuse Action Bar: 0 stars - mark this as Interesting! Who found this interesting? Be the first person to mark this question as interesting! Email Comment (0) There are currently no comments for this question. * You must be logged into Answers to add comments. Sign in or Register. Other Answers (2)   Daughter of Mandodari and Ravana A somewhat obscure legend obtains in some parts of Kerala, which seeks to explain Sita's birth. This legend goes thus: Although they were married at the end of a courtship of lyrical majesty, Ravana and his wife Mandodari grow estranged from each other since Mandodari finds it impossible to condone or ignore her husband's arrogance and misdeeds. In particular, Mandodari is repelled and distraught at her husband's ravishment of the hapless Vedavati. She soon afterwards finds herself pregnant, and fears that the child within her could be the harbinger of her husband's doom, as per Vadavati's awful oath. Despite her judgment of her husband, Mandodari cannot condemn him; and also cannot do away with a child even if her suspicions are confirmed, for, she may consider, how long can Fate be defied? Both these considerations are quintessentially in the spirit of Hindu legend, as indeed is her chosen course of action. Mandodari goes to her father's home in mainland India, and then on a series of pilgrimages, to prevent Ravana or anybody else from finding that she is pregnant. As the birth grows near, Mandodari seeks around for a suitable foster-home for her child. She discovers that Janaka, the pious king of Mithila, a man of noble character and eminent lineage, is childless; the deeply sorrowful king is intent upon performing a yagya to seek the boon of a child. At this time, a female child is born to Mandodari. Soon afterwards, just before Janaka begins ploughing a field preparatory to the intended rituals, Mandodari manages to spirit her baby into the field and into Janaka's path. King Janaka duly discovers the child and adopts her. Gratified at this turn of events, Mandodari returns to her husband and resumes her everyday life. The child is given the name "Sita" and grows up in king Janaka's household. This legend is also present in the Jain version of the Ramayana, who hold that Ravana's sin was primarily because of his evil actions towards his daughter. Source(s): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita#Daught…

[Greg Jay]

The lesson to be learned here is "DON'T ACCEPT EVERYTHING YOU READ"

Sita is an incarnation of Bhumi devi the goddess of the Earth and wife of Lord Visnu.

The rest is nonsense.

GKD

[Greg Jay]

I am not taking ISKCON doctrine literally.

There are different sources of knowledge.

A Jain story is not accepted by Vaisnavas.

If you want to know about Sita then the ultimate source is Valmiki ramayana not some Jain or non-Vaisnava stories.

If you don't have discrimination about who you accept as an authority then you will be bewildered.

Neither will I waste time arguing with someone who does not know what authority to accept.

If and when you accept a particular authority then let's talk.

You need a guide. Good luck finding one.

GKD

[mark]

The timeline on this thread is all screwed up.

The original post that started the thread was made at 4:34 pm, but
appears as the 2nd post, while what appears as the first post has a
5:25 time stamp and judging by its contents was obviously a response
to something GKD had to say about the Original post. However, the
body of GKD's reply was removed from Rajeswari's reply to him.

The 3rd post, timestamped 4:59 pm is from GKD which is a reply to the
original post (that appears as post #2)

The 4th post from 5:54 pm is from GKD which is a reply to Rajeswari's
response to GKD's first reply.

It appears that the story posted by Rajeswari dd was excerpted from
the Valmiki Ramayana.

I have been told that Srila Prabhupada gave the OK to get more details
regarding these pasttimes from there, if the 9th canto didn't go far
enough for someone's desire.

Judging by the authoritative tone of GKD's last post, it sounds like
he has made an authoritative determination that the story reproduced
by Rajeswari was NOT from Valmiki's Ramayana, but either a Jain or
other "non-Vaisnava" invention.

Is that true? Does he have any proof?

It would be good to show proof before presuming to lecture Rajeswari
on her lack of authoritative guidance.

On May 4, 5:55 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not taking ISKCON doctrine literally.
>
> There are different sources of knowledge.
>
> A Jain story is not accepted by Vaisnavas.
>
> If you want to know about Sita then the ultimate source is Valmiki ramayana not some Jain or non-Vaisnava stories.
>
> If you don't have discrimination about who you accept as an authority then you will be bewildered.
>
> Neither will I waste time arguing with someone who does not know what authority to accept.
>
> If and when you accept a particular authority then let's talk.
>
> You need a guide. Good luck finding one.
>
> GKD
>
> On May 4, 2010, at 11:25 AM, brenda macedo wrote:
>
>
>
> > Yes, Sita was found "in the earth..."
> > But what else do we know about her??
>
> > By the way, most of these accounts have been repeated in
> > various forms by learned sages I've encountered from India...
> > so it's not just believing in things I've read...
> > Perhaps this insight was too scandelous from an ISKCON
> > perspective...which takes everything literally...
>

> > --- On Tue, 5/4/10, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > From: Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...
> > To: "brenda macedo" <brendammac...@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: angel1...@yahoo.com, abhaya_mudra2...@yahoo.com, adiku...@gmail.com, angini1...@yahoo.com, alice.b...@att.net, alexandre_jablon...@yahoo.ca, ameya...@16108.com, bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com, bhagwa...@hotmail.com, cc...@yahoo.com, dasdas...@aol.com, dasc...@streamyx.com, frank-n-st...@hotmail.com, gadaid...@yahoo.com, Gauri...@aol.com, gaurakis...@gmail.com, gregpradyu...@yahoo.com, guruvagmi...@yahoo.com, hansadu...@rocketmail.com, hantonj...@hotmail.com, hast...@hotmail.com, hks...@juno.com, hmst...@yahoo.com, jagatka...@yahoo.com, jasmin...@gmail.com, jlange...@live.com, july9th...@yahoo.com, kamsaha...@hotmail.com, khadi...@wmconnect.com, krishnaisl...@hotmail.com, krishnaki...@gmail.com, KrishnaDa...@aol.com, krishnadasbe...@yahoo.com, kanhaiya...@hotmail.com, krsnad...@hotmail.com, kumudav...@aol.com, limor...@yahoo.com, laks...@webtv.net, madhuhad...@gmail.com, mahesh_ag...@yahoo.co.uk, markmac...@yahoo.com, mystique_1...@yahoo.com, naro...@yahoo.com, nityanandaram...@gmail.com, nrsimhana...@gmail.com, parij...@btinternet.com, pdhedem...@yahoo.com, pratyat...@gmail.com, prtha_devi_d...@hotmail.com, pss...@juno.com, pg1...@netzero.net, radhikagard...@hotmail.com, raghumis...@rogers.com, rbenavent1...@yahoo.es, rc...@earthlink.net, roupamanjaridevid...@gmail.com, shyamasund...@disciples.com, srimuku...@yahoo.com, spirits...@mac.com, steviedrea...@gmail.com, sunandana...@hotmail.com, sunilma...@yahoo.com, tamoharad...@yahoo.ca, trancendentaltechnol...@hotmail.co.uk, tulasimahar...@yahoo.de, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, urdhv...@aol.com, yasoda1...@yahoo.com, zakh...@earthlink.net, ugresa...@gmail.com, vaishnava_thakura_d...@yahoo.com, valyav...@yahoo.com, vibhuv...@yahoo.com, vidura...@hotmail.com, vikashdoka...@hotmail.com, vishoka_...@yahoo.com, visva...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, "dasarath" <dasar...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <harib...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <harivi...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jagab...@hotmail.com>, lal...@gmail.com, malatiflow...@yahoo.com
> > Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 3:18 PM
>

> > Greg Jay (jay.g...@gmail.com) was added to your Guest List by their request | Delete this guest |

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[Greg Jay]

Mark,

Perhaps Rajesvari should first give her proof from an acceptable sastra that Ravana's daughter was Sita and that therefore he attempted to commit incest.

GKD

[Gauridasa Pandita]

Dear Prabhus, 

Dandavats! AGT HDG Srila Prabhupada!

It's nice to have devotee parents, but being a devotee ourselves is most important. Prahlada Maharaja is a Mahajana, yet son of the big demon Hiranyakasipu. 

   Sita should never be questioned! She already passed the fire test, she is always completely pure and worshipable by us. 

   I know your interest was innocent but GKP is right about accepting the proper authority. For us that's Srila Prabhupada. He gave us what we need to know. So stick to his books and be carefore about other so-called 'authorities.'

   Her Appearance Day along with Jahnava Devi's is on May 21st ~ 

Jai Sri Sri Sita Rama!!!

Hoping this meets you well and Happy in Krsna Consciousness

Your eternal friend and servant

Gauridasa Pandita Dasa

BHAKTI SHAKTI

Check out my new videos 

'It's Krsna'  

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"ALL Attractive Lord"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzN9W9-Y5H4

"I'm Going Home"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv3C3RYx0kE

 

On May 4, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Brenda, Dandavats.  In order to understand the appearance and pastimes of the Lord and His Consorts - one needs to understand the scientific method by which we are able to access the correct presentation of this wonderful information: The Vedic Scriptures vibrated exclusively by a cent per cent pure devotee of the Lord Himself.  Might I suggest you carefully digest the wonderful Introduction to the Sri Isopanisad by our dear Srila Prabhupada. This will help you to understand the absolute value assigned these scriptures and their explanations of all the details surrounding the pastimes of the Lord. "Teachings of the Vedas" [Delivered as a lecture by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda on October 6, 1969, at Conway Hall, London, England.] Ladies and gentlemen, today's subject matter is the teachings of the Vedas. What are the Vedas? The Sanskrit verbal root of veda can be interpreted variously, but the purport is finally one. Veda means knowledge. Any knowledge you accept is veda, for the teachings of the Vedas are the original knowledge. In the conditioned state, our knowledge is subjected to many deficiencies. The difference between a conditioned soul and a liberated soul is that the conditioned soul has four kinds of defects. The first defect is that he must commit mistakes. For example, in our country, Mahatma Gandhi was considered to be a very great personality, but he committed many mistakes. Even at the last stage of his life, his assistant warned, "Mahatma Gandhi, don't go to the New Delhi meeting. I have some friends, and I have heard there is danger." But he did not hear. He persisted in going and was killed. Even great personalities like Mahatma Gandhi, President Kennedy-there are so many of them-make mistakes. To err is human. This is one defect of the conditioned soul. Another defect: to be illusioned. Illusion means to accept something which is not: māyā. Māyā means "what is not." Everyone is accepting the body as the self. If I ask you what you are, you will say, "I am Mr. John; I am a rich man; I am this; I am that." All these are bodily identifications. But you are not this body. This is illusion. The third defect is the cheating propensity. Everyone has the propensity to cheat others. Although a person is fool number one, he poses himself as very intelligent. Although it is already pointed out that he is in illusion and makes mistakes, he will theorize: "I think this is this, this is this." But he does not even know his own position. He writes books of philosophy, although he is defective. That is his disease. That is cheating. Lastly, our senses are imperfect. We are very proud of our eyes. Often, someone will challenge, "Can you show me God?" But do you have the eyes to see God? You will never see if you haven't the eyes. If immediately the room becomes dark, you cannot even see your hands. So what power do you have to see? We cannot, therefore, expect knowledge (veda) with these imperfect senses. With all these deficiencies, in conditioned life we cannot give perfect knowledge to anyone. Nor are we ourselves perfect. Therefore we accept the Vedas as they are. You may call the Vedas Hindu, but "Hindu" is a foreign name. We are not Hindus. Our real identification is varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama denotes the followers of the Vedas, those who accept the human society in eight divisions of varṇa and āśrama. There are four divisions of society and four divisions of spiritual life. This is called varṇāśrama. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.13), "These divisions are everywhere because they are created by God." The divisions of society are brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Brāhmaṇa refers to the very intelligent class of men, those who know what is Brahman. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, the administrator group, are the next intelligent class of men. Then the vaiśyas, the mercantile group. These natural classifications are found everywhere. This is the Vedic principle, and we accept it. Vedic principles are accepted as axiomatic truth, for there cannot be any mistake. That is acceptance. For instance, in India cow dung is accepted as pure, and yet cow dung is the stool of an animal. In one place you'll find the Vedic injunction that if you touch stool, you have to take a bath immediately. But in another place it is said that the stool of a cow is pure. If you smear cow dung in an impure place, that place becomes pure. With our ordinary sense we can argue, "This is contradictory." Actually, it is contradictory from the ordinary point of view, but it is not false. It is fact. In Calcutta, a very prominent scientist and doctor analyzed cow dung and found that it contains all antiseptic properties. In India if one person tells another, "You must do this," the other party may say, "What do you mean? Is this a Vedic injunction, that I have to follow you without any argument?" Vedic injunctions cannot be interpreted. But ultimately, if you carefully study why these injunctions are there, you will find that they are all correct. The Vedas are not compilations of human knowledge. Vedic knowledge comes from the spiritual world, from Lord Kṛṣṇa. Another name for the Vedas isśruti. Śruti refers to that knowledge which is acquired by hearing. It is not experimental knowledge. Śruti is considered to be like a mother. We take so much knowledge from our mother. For example, if you want to know who your father is, who can answer you? Your mother. If the mother says, "Here is your father," you have to accept it. It is not possible to experiment to find out whether he is your father. Similarly, if you want to know something beyond your experience, beyond your experimental knowledge, beyond the activities of the senses, then you have to accept the Vedas. There is no question of experimenting. It has already been experimented. It is already settled. The version of the mother, for instance, has to be accepted as truth. There is no other way. The Vedas are considered to be the mother, and Brahmā is called the grandfather, the forefather, because he was the first to be instructed in the Vedic knowledge. In the beginning the first living creature was Brahmā. He received this Vedic knowledge and imparted it to Nārada and other disciples and sons, and they also distributed it to their disciples. In this way, the Vedic knowledge comes down by disciplic succession. It is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā that Vedic knowledge is understood in this way. If you make experimental endeavor, you come to the same conclusion, but just to save time you should accept. If you want to know who your father is and if you accept your mother as the authority, then whatever she says can be accepted without argument. There are three kinds of evidence: pratyakṣa, anumāna and śabda. Pratyakṣa means "direct evidence." Direct evidence is not very good because our senses are not perfect. We are seeing the sun daily, and it appears to us just like a small disc, but it is actually far, far larger than many planets. Of what value is this seeing? Therefore we have to read books; then we can understand about the sun. So direct experience is not perfect. Then there is anumāna, inductive knowledge: "It may be like this"-hypothesis. For instance, Darwin's theory says it may be like this, it may be like that. But that is not science. That is a suggestion, and it is also not perfect. But if you receive the knowledge from the authoritative sources, that is perfect. If you receive a program guide from the radio station authorities, you accept it. You don't deny it; you don't have to make an experiment, because it is received from the authoritative sources. Vedic knowledge is called śabda-pramāṇa. Another name is śruti. Śruti means that this knowledge has to be received simply by aural reception. The Vedas instruct that in order to understand transcendental knowledge, we have to hear from the authority. Transcendental knowledge is knowledge from beyond this universe. Within this universe is material knowledge, and beyond this universe is transcendental knowledge. We cannot even go to the end of the universe, so how can we go to the spiritual world? Thus to acquire full knowledge is impossible. There is a spiritual sky. There is another nature, which is beyond manifestation and nonmanifestation. But how will you know that there is a sky where the planets and inhabitants are eternal? All this knowledge is there, but how will you make experiments? It is not possible. Therefore you have to take the assistance of the Vedas. This is called Vedic knowledge. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we are accepting knowledge from the highest authority, Kṛṣṇa.Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the highest authority by all classes of men. I am speaking first of the two classes of transcendentalists. One class of transcendentalists is called impersonalistic, Māyāvādī. They are generally known as Vedāntists, led by Śańkarācārya. And there is another class of transcendentalists, called Vaiṣṇavas, like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu-svāmī. Both the Śańkara-sampradāya and the Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Śańkarācārya is supposed to be an impersonalist who preached impersonalism, impersonal Brahman, but it is a fact that he is a covered personalist. In his commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā he wrote, "Nārāyaṇa, the Su-preme Personality of Godhead, is beyond this cosmic manifestation." And then again he confirmed, "That Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, is Kṛṣṇa. He has come as the son of Devakī and Vasudeva." He particularly mentioned the names of His father and mother. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all transcendentalists. There is no doubt about it. Our source of knowledge in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the Bhagavad-gītā, which comes directly from Kṛṣṇa. We have published the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is because we acceptKṛṣṇa as He is speaking, without any interpretation. That is Vedic knowledge. Since the Vedic knowledge is pure, we accept it. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That saves much time. If you accept the right authority, or source of knowledge, then you save much time. For example, there are two systems of knowledge in the material world: inductive and deductive. From deductive, you accept that man is mortal. Your father says man is mortal, your sister says man is mortal, everyone says man is mortal-but you do not experiment. You accept it as a fact that man is mortal. If you want to research to find out whether man is mortal, you have to study each and every man, and you may come to think that there may be some man who is not dying but you have not seen him yet. So in this way your research will never be finished. In Sanskrit this process is called āroha, the ascending process. If you want to attain knowledge by any personal endeavor, by exercising your imperfect senses, you will never come to the right conclusions. That is not possible. There is a statement in the Brahma-saḿhitā: Just ride on the airplane which runs at the speed of mind. Our material airplanes can run two thousand miles per hour, but what is the speed of mind? You are sitting at home, you immediately think of India-say, ten thousand miles away-and at once it is in your home. Your mind has gone there. The mind-speed is so swift. Therefore it is stated, "If you travel at this speed for millions of years, you'll find that the spiritual sky is unlimited." It is not possible even to approach it. Therefore, the Vedic injunction is that one must approach-the word "compulsory" is used-a bona fide spiritual master, a guru. And what is the qualification of a spiritual master? He is one who has rightly heard the Vedic message from the right source. And he must practically be firmly established in Brahman. These are the two qualities he must have. Otherwise he is not bona fide. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is completely authorized from Vedic principles. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, "The actual aim of Vedic research is to find out Kṛṣṇa." In the Brahma-saḿhitā it is also stated, "Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, has innumerable forms, but they are all one." They are not like our forms, which are fallible. His form is infallible. My form has a beginning, but His form has no beginning. It is ananta. And His form-so many multiforms-has no end. My form is sitting here and not in my apartment. You are sitting there and not in your apartment. But Kṛṣṇa can be everywhere at one time. He can sit down in GolokaVṛndāvana, and at the same time He is everywhere, all-pervading. He is original, the oldest, but whenever you look at a picture of Kṛṣṇa you'll find a young boy fifteen or twenty years old. You will never find an old man. You have seen pictures of Kṛṣṇa as a charioteer from the Bhagavad-gītā. At that time He was not less than one hundred years old. He had great-grandchildren, but He looked just like a boy. Kṛṣṇa, God, never becomes old. That is His supreme power. And if you want to search out Kṛṣṇa by studying the Vedic literature, then you will be baffled. It may be possible, but it is very difficult. But you can very easily learn about Him from His devotee. His devotee can deliver Him to you: "Here He is, take Him." That is the potency of Kṛṣṇa's devotees. Originally there was only one Veda, and there was no necessity of reading it. People were so intelligent and had such sharp memories that by once hearing from the lips of the spiritual master they would understand. They would immediately grasp the whole purport. But five thousand years ago Vyāsadeva put the Vedas in writing for the people in this age, Kali-yuga. He knew that eventually the people would be short-lived, their memories would be very poor, and their intelligence would not be very sharp. "Therefore, let me teach this Vedic knowledge in writing." He divided the Vedas into four: Ṛg, Sāma, Atharva and Yajur. Then he gave the charge of these Vedas to his different disciples. He then thought of the less intelligent class of men-strī, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. He considered the woman class and śūdra class (worker class) and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu refers to those who are born in a high family but who are not properly qualified. A man who is born in the family of a brāhmaṇa but is not qualified as a brāhmaṇa is called dvija-bandhu. For these persons he compiled the Mahābhārata, called the history of India, and the eighteen Purāṇas. These are all part of the Vedic literature: the Purāṇas, the Mahābhārata, the four Vedas and the Upaniṣads. The Upaniṣads are part of the Vedas. Then Vyāsadeva summarized all Vedic knowledge for scholars and philosophers in what is called theVedānta-sūtra. This is the last word of the Vedas. Vyāsadeva personally wrote the Vedānta-sūtra under the instructions of Nārada, his Guru Mahārāja (spiritual master), but still he was not satisfied. That is a long story, described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Vedavyāsa was not very satisfied even after compiling many Purāṇas and Upaniṣads, and even after writing theVedānta-sūtra. Then his spiritual master, Nārada, instructed him, "You explain the Vedānta-sūtra." Vedānta means "ultimate knowledge," and the ultimate knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that throughout all the Vedas one has to understand Him: vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the compiler of the Vedānta-sūtra, and I am the knower of the Vedas." Therefore the ultimate objective is Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in all the Vaiṣṇava commentaries on Vedāntaphilosophy. We Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas have our commentary on Vedānta philosophy, called Govinda-bhāṣya, by Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa. Similarly, Rāmānujācārya has a commentary, and Madhvācārya has one. The version of Śańkarācārya is not the only commentary. There are many Vedānta commentaries, but because the Vaiṣṇavas did not present the first Vedānta commentary, people are under the wrong impression that Śańkarācārya's is the only Vedānta commentary. Besides that, Vyāsadeva himself wrote the perfect Vedānta commentary, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins with the first words of theVedānta-sūtra: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. And that janmādy asya yataḥ is fully explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The Vedānta-sūtra simply hints at what isBrahman, the Absolute Truth: "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything emanates." This is a summary, but it is explained in detail inŚrīmad-Bhāgavatam. If everything is emanating from the Absolute Truth, then what is the nature of the Absolute Truth? That is explained inŚrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The Absolute Truth must be consciousness. He is self-effulgent (sva-rāṭ). We develop our consciousness and knowledge by receiving knowledge from others, but for Him it is said that He is self-effulgent. The whole summary of Vedic knowledge is the Vedānta-sūtra, and the Vedānta-sūtra is explained by the writer himself in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We finally request those who are actually after Vedic knowledge to try to understand the explanation of all Vedic knowledge from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Bhagavad-gītā.   --- On Tue, 5/4/10, brenda macedo <brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: brenda macedo <brenda...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

To: "Greg Jay" <jay....@gmail.com> Cc: ange...@yahoo.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, angin...@yahoo.com, alice...@att.net, alexandre...@yahoo.ca, amey...@16108.com, bhaktat...@yahoo.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, cc...@yahoo.com, dasd...@aol.com, das...@streamyx.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gada...@yahoo.com, Gaur...@aol.com, gaura...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hansa...@rocketmail.com, hanto...@hotmail.com, has...@hotmail.com, hks...@juno.com, hms...@yahoo.com, jagat...@yahoo.com, jasm...@gmail.com, jlan...@live.com, july9...@yahoo.com, kamsa...@hotmail.com, khad...@wmconnect.com, krishn...@hotmail.com, krishn...@gmail.com, Krishn...@aol.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, kanha...@hotmail.com, krsn...@hotmail.com, kumud...@aol.com, limo...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, madhu...@gmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, markm...@yahoo.com, mystiq...@yahoo.com, nar...@yahoo.com, nityanan...@gmail.com, nrsimh...@gmail.com, pari...@btinternet.com, pdhed...@yahoo.com, praty...@gmail.com, prtha_d...@hotmail.com, pss...@juno.com, pg1...@netzero.net, radhika...@hotmail.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rbenav...@yahoo.es, rc...@earthlink.net, roupamanja...@gmail.com, shyama...@disciples.com, srimu...@yahoo.com, spiri...@mac.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, sunil...@yahoo.com, tamoha...@yahoo.ca, trancendent...@hotmail.co.uk, tulasim...@yahoo.de, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, urdh...@aol.com, yasod...@yahoo.com, zak...@earthlink.net, ugre...@gmail.com, vaishnava_t...@yahoo.com, valy...@yahoo.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, vikash...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, "dasarath" <dasa...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <hari...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <hari...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jaga...@hotmail.com>, lal...@gmail.com, malati...@yahoo.com

Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 5:25 PM

Yes, Sita was found "in the earth..." But what else do we know about her??   By the way, most of these accounts have been repeated in various forms by learned sages I've encountered from India... so it's not just believing in things I've read... Perhaps this insight was too scandelous from an ISKCON

perspective...which takes everything literally...

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

To: "brenda macedo" <brenda...@yahoo.com> Cc: ange...@yahoo.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, angin...@yahoo.com, alice...@att.net, alexandre...@yahoo.ca, amey...@16108.com, bhaktat...@yahoo.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, cc...@yahoo.com, dasd...@aol.com, das...@streamyx.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gada...@yahoo.com, Gaur...@aol.com, gaura...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hansa...@rocketmail.com, hanto...@hotmail.com, has...@hotmail.com, hks...@juno.com, hms...@yahoo.com, jagat...@yahoo.com, jasm...@gmail.com, jlan...@live.com, july9...@yahoo.com, kamsa...@hotmail.com, khad...@wmconnect.com, krishn...@hotmail.com, krishn...@gmail.com, Krishn...@aol.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, kanha...@hotmail.com, krsn...@hotmail.com, kumud...@aol.com, limo...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, madhu...@gmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, markm...@yahoo.com, mystiq...@yahoo.com, nar...@yahoo.com, nityanan...@gmail.com, nrsimh...@gmail.com, pari...@btinternet.com, pdhed...@yahoo.com, praty...@gmail.com, prtha_d...@hotmail.com, pss...@juno.com, pg1...@netzero.net, radhika...@hotmail.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rbenav...@yahoo.es, rc...@earthlink.net, roupamanja...@gmail.com, shyama...@disciples.com, srimu...@yahoo.com, spiri...@mac.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, sunil...@yahoo.com, tamoha...@yahoo.ca, trancendent...@hotmail.co.uk, tulasim...@yahoo.de, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, urdh...@aol.com, yasod...@yahoo.com, zak...@earthlink.net, ugre...@gmail.com, vaishnava_t...@yahoo.com, valy...@yahoo.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, vikash...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, "dasarath" <dasa...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <hari...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <hari...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jaga...@hotmail.com>, lal...@gmail.com, malati...@yahoo.com

Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 3:18 PM

Greg Jay (jay....@gmail.com) was added to your Guest List by their request | Delete this guest |

[mark]

Well why didn't you just ask her to clarifiy the source of the
versions she cited instead of jumping to your conclusions, give her
the chance to clear things up?

[Greg Jay]

The article she posted (if you actually read it) mentioned some sources of this story as Jain stories.

The only Ramayana Prabhupada accepted was Valmiki Ramayana.

If you had read that you would know this story is nonsense.

Educate yourself before assuming others aren't

GKD

[mark]

The article first cites Valmiki Ramayana.

Then the author gives "purport" commentaries.

The first purport commentary, (re:incest) cites 2 versions that point
to the same conclusion. It does not mention what versions they are.

As a matter of fact, that author never directly cites the scripture it
is referring to.

The only time the Jain source is mentioned is after the article, after
the Wikipedia section, at the very very end, and it says.

"This legend is also present in the Jain version of the Ramayana, who
hold that Ravana's sin was primarily because of his evil actions
towards his daughter. "

Which confirms that you were the one who did not read thoroughly, and
jumped to conclusions just like I said. Bad form.

[Greg Jay]

Prabhupada did not say that all commentaries on Valmiki Ramayana are bonafide

That is why I asked for a quote from an acceptable authority.

Valmiki Ramayana may also have bogus commentaries.

Valmiki Ramayana is bonafide but it never says anything about this bogus story directly.

The Jain story says it directly.

The fact is that this lady presented something as fact without checking it.

Therefore she was fooled into accepting something which is not authorized.

You naturally assume that she is right and I am wrong without any knowledge.

Both of you need to check your facts before opening your mouth.

GKD

[mark]

You never asked her for a quote from "an acceptable authority". That
is a fabrication. Go back and read your original responses. No such
request ever came from you. You simply condemned what she wrote as
nonsense. Without citing your authority to do so.

The very first and only reference in the article was to Valmiki
Ramayana.

The last statement of the entire article which mentions agreement of
Jain sources with the legend indicatively implies that the earlier
versions mentioned were not Jain sources. It was not a leap to assume
they were from Valmiki Ramayana sources.

If you did have knowledge of which commentary/commentaries on Valmiki
Ramayana are bonafide according to Srila Prabhupada, and you also knew
them so well as to be able to immediately recognize that the
"versions" of the story Rajeswari listed were from either unbonafide
sources, or not from Valmiki at all but from "other" sources, then it
would have behooved you to provide this information as evidence that
your derision of those versions was justified.

If the 2 versions in the "incest" purport section were known to you to
be from Jain sources and not at all from Valmiki Ramayana, or known to
you specifically to be from other than Jain or Valmiki (bonafide
Valmiki or not), you give no indication,

In any event, if you had the knowledge you say you do, you should have
replied differently, perhaps in a manner befitting a brahmana and
scholar.

Instead we get a holier than thou I know it all but I'm not sure if I
should waste my time with you act. Which then segued into "well,
since you are so confused and rudderless, and obviously in need of
authority, lets talk."

Unqualified neopyhtes Trolling for disciples will not fly when I am on
duty. Ravana had 10 heads. You seem to have 10 feet, and so far have
shown that you can stick them all into your mouth at once. Talk about
someone who needs to learn to keep their mouth shut.





All you did was claim she had been fooled, ("shouldn't believe
everything your read"), and cite no authority but your own say so.
The

Your second post was black and white.

> ...
>
> read more »

[mark]

> ...
>
> read more »

[Greg Jay]

> Judging by the authoritative tone of GKD's last post, it sounds like
> he has made an authoritative determination that the story reproduced
> by Rajeswari was NOT from Valmiki's Ramayana, but either a Jain or
> other "non-Vaisnava" invention.
>
> Is that true? Does he have any proof?
>
> It would be good to show proof before presuming to lecture Rajeswari
> on her lack of authoritative guidance.

If you were actually intelligent you would realize that she is the one who must give proof first.

GKD


Again this is what I sent to you and her:

Mark,

Perhaps Rajesvari should first give her proof from an acceptable sastra that Ravana's daughter was Sita and that therefore he attempted to commit incest.

GKD

On May 4, 2010, at 3:01 PM, mark wrote:

[Bhaktatraveler]

Two cents worth.

 

The lady was wrong right out of the gate because of coming on this forum with evidence outside of Srila Prabhupada first, then outside of Gaudiya school secondly, then outside of Vaisnava culture all together(not part of the 4 sampradayas). I've seen her around, he should know better!

 

But our dear brother GKD is still in default to another circumstance, not come forth to prove with Prabhupada's vani  his claim the importance of a disciples OPINION in regards to aparadha to our esteemed Vaisnava Guru, Srila Prabhupada. In reference to continued deity installations by less than good standing devotees or those willfully marginalized through neglect. Show the vani where neglect and willful rejection is an opinion only.

 

Bk Mark is just shooting fish in a barrel and should come to the point of challenging GKD again about OPINIONS soon! There's no sport here, lol.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

 

 

---

From: Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 12:26:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

>> istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com

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[mark]

My point has been from the beginning about the method that GKD used to
challenge a lady. It was contemptible.

After replying 2 times in a fruitless condescending manner, GKD said.
quote "Perhaps Rajesvari should first give her proof from an

acceptable sastra that Ravana's daughter was Sita and that therefore
he attempted to commit incest."

So it took him 3 times to figure out a reasonable approach instead of
his consdescending condemnation.

This from a so-called Brahmana.

And then he had the gaul to insinuate that this 3rd method was the way
he approached the topic from the beginning.

This is called prevarication, to be misleading and giving a false
impression. He backtracked and prevaricated.

And the other thing is that we still don't know for certain which 2
versions were cited in the first incest purport. According to the
article, the 1st and only reference cited was Valmiki Ramayana, a
citation which was made in the very paragraph before the incest
purport section which mentions "2 versions" and shows their
similarities and differences.

GKD could have called on her to confirm whether she was still talking
of versions of Valmiki Ramayana at that point.

Instead HE MADE A CLAIM THEY WERE NONSENSE WITHOUT GIVING EVIDENCE,
and demeaned her in the process.

I will block everything GKD tries to post on this forum from here on
in until he apologizes for his crooked behavior, or until my moderator
priveleges are removed, at which point I will cease to participate
here.

Hare Krsna

On May 5, 9:10 am, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Two cents worth.
>
> The lady was wrong right out of the gate because of coming on this forum with evidence outside of Srila Prabhupada first, then outside of Gaudiya school secondly, then outside of Vaisnava culture all together(not part of the 4 sampradayas). I've seen her around, he should know better!
>
> But our dear brother GKD is still in default to another circumstance, not come forth to prove with Prabhupada's vani  his claim the importance of a disciples OPINION in regards to aparadha to our esteemed Vaisnava Guru, Srila Prabhupada. In reference to continued deity installations by less than good standing devotees or those willfully marginalized through neglect. Show the vani where neglect and willful rejection is an opinion only.
>
> Bk Mark is just shooting fish in a barrel and should come to the point of challenging GKD again about OPINIONS soon! There's no sport here, lol.
>
> Hare Krsna
>
> RCB
>
> ________________________________

> From: Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com>

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[Rajesvari]

Thanks Mark...

I like reading about all the different renditions about Sita, because
she is a role model for me.
My quandary is that the Vedic stand in regard to Sita does not seem to
be uniform. The question is…why??

We know her simply as the wife of Lord Ram.
However, in Kaushika Sukta, Sita has been identified as the wife of
Parjanya, a god associated
with rain. She has been invoked as the ‘mother of all gods, mortals
and
creatures’ and is prayed for growth and prosperity.
But, in the Paraskara Sukta, she has been identified as the wife of
Indra, the Vedic god with greater magnitude often associated with rain
and fertility.

Sita’s position further changes in Samhitas.
Under a practice during post-Rig-Vedic period, there came to prevail a
practice which required due ploughing of the ground where the fire for
yajna was to be installed. Obviously it aimed at ensuring that the
yajna charged the ploughed fields with fertility and enabled them for
yielding abundant crop. The practice, called Agnichayana – selection
of site for installing yajna-fire, was something like a quasi-ritual.

The Vajasaneyi-Samhita attributes to this practice the status of a
proper ritual providing that yajna-bhumi should have drawn on it four
furrow lines and when drawing these lines Sita – the goddess
associated with ploughed field, should be invoked with prescribed
hymns. This linked emergence of Sita in the mind of yajnika –
performer of yajna, with the act of ploughing the yajna-bhumi.
Once when ploughing a part of land for
consecrating it for yajna there rose from under it a young girl that
king Janaka brought home, adopted her as his daughter and in
consideration of her emergence from the furrow-line named her Sita.

Tulsidasa also followed this line on the incidence of Sita’s birth.
Valmiki seems to have seen in Sita the same forbearance,
steadfastness, and divine spirit to suffer without grudge …
always giving. This characterized the “earth-born Sita” manifesting
the earth’s
inherent spirituality…

Sita is the goddess of the earth…and Ravana, kidnapping her out of his
own lust makes no dent in her purity as far as I’m concerned.
I honor Sita in every imaginable context…however,
I don’t think that the men in India at the time would have…since they
viewed women mostly as sexual objects or possessions…
perhaps that’s why a story about Sita’s real father was never
mentioned in the context of ISKCON.
A Sita marred by incest would have been someone to cast out, (as they
did)…not someone to have compassion upon…reminiscent of how
some men today condescend to women to make themselves look better…

Rajesvari

[mark]

Dear Mataji,

This is a forum for disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

First and foremost we consider his version of things OR a version he
has authorized, as our benchmark.

From there we can indulge our interest in discussing the versions of
others and have nice conversation.

The important thing is not to make any assumptions or suppostions of
any fact, in order to have a discussion.

When speaking of the pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead
and His energies, It is only a fact if Srila Prabhupada said it, or a
source he authorized has said it.

So, your post seems more or less thoughtful and intriguing, yet you
still have not provided a definite reference to an authorized source
that proves that Sita devi was born of Ravana.

She could have been for sure.

Let's see the proof. I personally do not know which version of
Valkmiki's Ramayana is bonafide according to SP. I would have to know
which author he claimed was bonafide. This can be determined with
some research. I think you should do it.

Thanks

ys

B.Mark

> ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.

[Bhaktatraveler]

Then he will need his own thread to do the needfull in.

 

RCB

---

From: mark <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 10:21:35 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

> >> istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com

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[Rajesvari]

Dear Mark,

Hare bol.
Many thanks for your insights, fairness and impartiality...

You're right...in a perfect world,
I would have the appropriate ISKCON shastra citing
Ravana's incestuous desire for Sita Devi...
Perhaps there is one, however, I have not found it in our own ISKCON
texts...
that was my original query...remember?

Why do our shastras not seem to go back far enough
to explain in more detail how Sita came about??

I want to know everything on Sita...not just be spoon fed a few
morsals...

I will keep searching and in the meantime, please,
you also keep searching and please email me if you find anything...

Rajesvari

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[mark]

Hare Krsna Mataji

Remember, that regardless of what the powers that be in corporate
Iskcon have to say, some one or more honest disciples of Srila
Prabhupada will know which Valmiki Ramayana is authored by someone
approved of by Srila Prabhupada.

Although some are of the camp that Gaudiya Vaisnava disciples of Srila
Prabhupada need to limit themselves to citing his books as Sastra and
nothing else, I am not. Some believe that a "real" Krsna bhakta is
only truly interested in reading Gita, Bhagavatam, CC, Nectar of
Devotion and higher Goswami texts.

While it is generally true that the more one comes to love and know
Lord Krsna, one will generally gravitate toward those sources of
inspiration.

But any text that expands in detail any of the rasic relationships
with Krsna, such as Mahabharata by Ganguli, Ramayana by Valmiki
(proper author unknown to me), which were authorized by Srila
Prabhupada, have the equal weight of sastra when describing the
pastimes of the Lord. THEY ARE TO BE COUNTED AS BEING A PART OF THE
COMPENDIUM OF ISKCON TEXTS.

The Lord himself empowered certain authors who may or may not have
officially been a member of the Gaudiya camp in their day. He
empowered them so that we Gaudiyas would be able to mine those texts
for their treasure. Our Prabhupada told us who they were. That is
it.

So, that said, you will have to accept that if you want to "know"
something about the Lord and his devotees, that you will be limited to
these sources if you want to fully eliminate the risk that what you
are reading has a tinge of speculation and may possibly mislead you in
your quest for knowledge.

Hoping to make your search easier.

ys

B.Mark

On May 5, 2:15 pm, Rajesvari <brendammac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Mark,
>
> Hare bol.
> Many thanks for your insights, fairness and impartiality...
>
> You're right...in a perfect world,
> I would have the appropriate ISKCON shastra citing
> Ravana's incestuous desire for Sita Devi...
> Perhaps there is one, however, I have not found it in our own ISKCON
> texts...
> that was my original query...remember?
>
> Why do our shastras not seem to go back far enough
> to explain in more detail how Sita came about??
>
> I want to know everything on Sita...not just be spoon fed a few
> morsals...
>
> I will keep searching and in the meantime, please,
> you also keep searching and please email me if you find anything...
>
> Rajesvari
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
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[Greg Jay]

On May 5, 2010, at 6:20 AM, mark wrote:

> I personally do not know which version of
> Valkmiki's Ramayana is bonafide according to SP. I would have to know
> which author he claimed was bonafide.

To my knowledge as General Manager of the Vaisnava Literature Conservation Project which microfilmed and cataloged millions of pages of Vaisnava manusripts and texts which was authorized by Srila Prabhupada and continued under his disciples, the Smithsonian Institution and American University in DC, with various organizational and spiritual affiliations in India, I know of no edition of Valmiki ramayana that contains this.

When Srila Prabhupada is speaking of Valmiki Ramayana, the author he speaks of is Valmiki. He specifically does not approve of Tulsi dasa's Ramcharitamanas. There may be some slightly different texts of Valmiki ramayana extant but none have this story AFAIK.

FYI Bhagavad Gita also has some differing versions. The version Srila Prabhupada commented on is the same as commented on by Baladeva Vidyabhusana and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakurs, acharyas of our sampradaya.

Other bonafide Vaisnava acharyas have commented on Gitas that contained one less sloka.

There is a critical edition of Valmiki Ramayana online at http://www.hindunet.org/ramayana/valmiki.htm

You are welcome to look there if you think such a story exists.

GKD

[mark]

I knew Valmiki was the author. I also had heard in the past that
Srila Prabhupada had made a specific statement either accepting or
rejecting one or more translators of the work. I heard it word of
mouth a long time ago, and Tulsi dasa seems to ring a bell in that
regard.

Manging the archiving process of a collection of multiple versions of
the Ramayana is different than reading them. Your answer implies that
you read the relevant portion of each version of the Ramayana in order
to know that the Ravana -Sita connection is not Father-daughter as at
least 2 other versions of other source indicate.

Perhaps you did read them. Must have had alot of time on your hands.
You might want to add Srila Prabhupada's conversation books to your
reading list, so you don't continue to miss out on the volumes of Vani
that he gave to his leaders never shared with you, but was meant for
the society as a whole, not just individual instruction at the time.

In any event, you started out by castigating Rajeswari for quoting
from an "unacceptable" sastra. If you had taken a brief moment you to
consider her needs (put yourself in her shoes), you might have divined
that she did not know it was an unacceptable sastra.

You might have been simply of service to her by notifying her of what
is acceptable according to the standards of a Prabhupada disciple
(this is a Prabhupadanuga forum after all. And that unacceptable
means she could be cheated.

Next you might have then recommended that since the scriptural source
she quoted is dubious or just plain wrong, IF you know that for
certain, and followed by pointing her to the appropriate source, she
could have verified that for herself.

I would prefer for your teaching method to resemble something like
that. I hope its not too overbearing to expect such from a Brahmana.

Hare Krsna

On May 5, 7:17 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 5, 2010, at 6:20 AM, mark wrote:
>
> > I personally do not know which version of
> > Valkmiki's Ramayana is bonafide according to SP.  I would have to know
> > which author he claimed was bonafide.
>
> To my knowledge as General Manager of the Vaisnava Literature Conservation Project which microfilmed and cataloged millions of pages of Vaisnava manusripts and texts which was authorized by Srila Prabhupada and continued under his disciples, the Smithsonian Institution and American University in DC, with various organizational and spiritual affiliations in India, I know of no edition of Valmiki ramayana that contains this.
>
> When Srila Prabhupada is speaking of Valmiki Ramayana, the author he speaks of is Valmiki. He specifically does not approve of Tulsi dasa's Ramcharitamanas. There may be some slightly different texts of Valmiki ramayana extant but none have this story AFAIK.
>
> FYI Bhagavad Gita also has some differing versions. The version Srila Prabhupada commented on is the same as commented on by Baladeva Vidyabhusana and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakurs, acharyas of our sampradaya.
>
> Other bonafide Vaisnava acharyas have commented on Gitas that contained one less sloka.
>

> There is a critical edition of Valmiki Ramayana online athttp://www.hindunet.org/ramayana/valmiki.htm

>
> You are welcome to look there if you think such a story exists.
>
> GKD
>
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[Greg Jay]

On May 5, 2010, at 3:33 PM, mark wrote:

I knew Valmiki was the author.  I also had heard in the past that
Srila Prabhupada had made a specific statement either accepting or
rejecting one or more translators of the work.  I heard it word of
mouth a long time ago, and Tulsi dasa seems to ring a bell in that
regard.

So this verse... Our, this respectable Indian lady, she will begin Ramayana... This Tulasi, actually it is not Ramayana. It is called Rama-carita-manasa. Ramayana means Valmiki Ramayana, but people have taken it as Ramayana. Actually, Tulasi dasa has expressed his own feelings about his devotion to Lord Rama, and therefore he has named it Rama-carita-manasa, his mind full with service attitude for Lord Rama. That is the real meaning of this book. But people have misinterpreted; they are going on just it is Ramayana. And Ramayana, of course, anywhere where Rama's activities are described, that is called Ramayana. That is another sense. But real Ramayana means the Ramayana composed by Valmiki Ramayana. Ramayana composed by Maharshi Valmiki. And this is... It is a popular notion that this is Ramayana, but actually this book is called Rama-carita-manasa. So some of the description of Rama are there, but not all the description. Rather there are many differences from the original Valmiki Ramayana. Anyway this is song of a devotee for his Lord Rama. In that sense, you can call it Ramayana, but this book is actually Rama-carita-manasa. Aug 30th, 1968

Prabhupada: No, not London. In London the katha vaca, they go, Ramayana of Tulsi das. Akshayananda: Tulsi das teaching bona fide, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: He is not pure Vaishnava. He has got Mayavadi touch. Aug 29th, 1975

I have a great desire to translate the Valmiki Ramayana because that is authorized. Tulsi das' Charit manas is already translated into English by some clergyman, but I do not exactly know his name. Therefore I wish to translate Valmiki Ramayana exactly in the way I have done Srimad-Bhagavatam. July 26th, 1975

So Ramayana, Valmiki Ramayana, not other Ramayana, the so-called Ramayana... Authority, Valmiki Ramayana... If you read Valmiki Ramayana, that is also as good as reading Bhagavad-gita. Oct 9th,1975

Prabhupada: Yes, there is... Vaishnavas... Ramayana is also approved. Ramayana is also Vedic literature, Valmiki Ramayana, not any other. So we discuss Valmiki Ramayana. In the Bhagavata there is discussion about Ramacandra's activities. So we are giving Srimad-Bhagavatam. There is Ramacandra's activities there. Where is Ramacandra, which planet He is now, that is also described in the Bhagavatam. So it is not that we are without Rama. And our direct worshipable Rama is Balarama, Krishna-Balarama. We have opened the temple of Krishna-Balarama in Vrindavana. So Rama is there. Ramadi-murtishu kala-niyamena tishthan nanavataram akarod bhuvaneshu kintu [Bs. 5.39]. Krishna has got many, many incarnation. Rama is also one of them. So when we speak of Krishna, it means including all the incarnation—Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha—everything. Ramadi... Therefore ramadi, "taking Rama as the original," murtishu, "in such forms," ramadi-murtishu kala-niyamena tishthan [Bs. 5.39], "He is existing." Krishna is not alone. He is always existing with His different incarnations, Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, Matsya, Kurma—so many. So either you worship Krishna or Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, Matsya, Kurma, anyone you can worship. We don't say that don't worship Rama. We never say, because Rama and Krishna, the same. We shall... In future we have got a hope we shall start an Rama-Lakshmana murti, yes, in some temple. That is our worshipable Deity. We have got in my room Lord Ramacandra's murti, Sita-Rama. So it is not that we are neglecting worship of Ramacandra. There is. Yes? Somebody else? Oct 27th, 1975

Prabhupada: Ramayana, Valmiki Ramayana, that is also authority. Oct 5th, 1975

Prabhupada: Many such things have been discovered, and besides that, they are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. So which should we consider better? Now this Valmiki Ramayana, it was written at least eight hundred, five thousands of years ago. Syamasundara: Eight hundred times five thousand? Prabhupada: No. Eight hundred thousand and five thousand. Syamasundara: 850,000 years. Prabhupada: Eight hundred thousands of years and five thousands of years. Syamasundara: 805,000 years. Prabhupada: Yes. Long, long ago the Vedic knowledge was there. Discussion with Shyamasundara das

Manging the archiving process of a collection of multiple versions of
the Ramayana is different than reading them.  Your answer implies that
you read the relevant portion of each version of the Ramayana in order
to know that the Ravana -Sita connection is not Father-daughter as at
least 2 other versions of other source indicate.

My job did involve checking things about different manuscript editions.

As I said I have a lot of experience in such matters.

Perhaps you did read them.  Must have had alot of time on your hands.

It took several years. And I was not the only person doing it. I am sure that the other Vaisnavas working with me would have mentioned such a story.

You might want to add Srila Prabhupada's conversation books to your
reading list, so you don't continue to miss out on the volumes of Vani
that he gave to his leaders never shared with you, but was meant for
the society as a whole, not just individual instruction at the time.

I type set and added the diacritics to the Prabhupada conversations books. I know them very well.

In any event, you started out by castigating Rajeswari for quoting
from an "unacceptable" sastra.

Correct and I stand by that assessment.

 If you had taken a brief moment you to
consider her needs (put yourself in her shoes), you might have divined
that she did not know it was an unacceptable sastra.

I know what I am talking about because I am experienced in such things. Therefore I cut the bullshit and told her that she did not have any acceptable sastra.

You might have been simply of service to her by notifying her of what
is acceptable according to the standards of a Prabhupada disciple
(this is a Prabhupadanuga forum after all.  And that unacceptable
means she could be cheated.

Are all the people on this forum that clueless?

I assume that people on this forum have basic understanding of what is authentic and what is not. Apparently not.

Next you might have then recommended that since the scriptural source
she quoted is dubious or just plain wrong, IF you know that for
certain, and followed by pointing her to the appropriate source, she
could have verified that for herself.

She made a mistake by presenting herself as knowing something without proof. I called her on it. You do a similar thing. You refuse to admit that anyone knows anything more than you.

I would prefer for your teaching method to resemble something like
that.  I hope its not too overbearing to expect such from a Brahmana.

I am not really concerned with what you prefer.

GKD

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[mark]

Mark said: "If you had taken a brief moment you to consider her needs

(put yourself in her shoes), you might have divined that she did not
know it was an unacceptable sastra."

GKD replied "I know what I am talking about because I am experienced

in such things. Therefore I cut the bullshit and told her that she did
not have any acceptable sastra."

Marks new reply: Your reply had nothing to do with my observation.
The only thing you cut is your potential for a civil and empathetic
response, you weren't interested in her situation , just interested in
"showing everyone how much you know". And what kind of Krsna Bhakta
uses cow dung to connotate something derogatory? None I know.

******
Mark said: "You might have been simply of service to her by notifying

her of what is acceptable according to the standards of a Prabhupada

disciple (this is a Prabhupadanuga forum after all) and that

unacceptable
means she could be cheated."

GKD replied "Are all the people on this forum that clueless? I assume

that people on this forum have basic understanding of what is
authentic and what is not. Apparently not. "

Marks new reply "I think that being without a clue as to an acceptable
Ramayana version is much less grievous than having no clue how to
treat other people. Your high learning has lifted you up where you
don't belong, and now you must condescend to all who don't have such
clues. Another fine example of a smarta brahmana, a neophyte who
treats the Deity form in the temple quite nicely, but cannot quite
grasp how to respect a woman or any other average human apparently.

You could start by ditching your assumptions and dealing with the
reality you know. I know, impossible right? After all when YOU
assume, it is divination and always correct right?

Anyway, yes, everyone on this forum is clueless. So why don't you
take a clue from that and take your uppity smarta self and go away?

************

GKD said: She made a mistake by presenting herself as knowing

something without proof. I called her on it. You do a similar thing.
You refuse to admit that anyone knows anything more than you.

Marks reply: Yeah, you called her on it tough guy. Must have felt
good "cutting" into that dastardly woman and her mistaken self.
Again, your technique reveals you don't have an empathetic bone in
your body, and should not be around people until you can learn how to
treat them with respect.

*************

Mark said: "I would prefer for your teaching method to resemble

something like that. I hope its not too overbearing to expect such
from a Brahmana.

GKD replied: "I am not really concerned with what you prefer."

Marks new reply: Who is refusing to admit someone knows more than
them? You think it is more important that I and others weren't aware
of which verison of Ramayana was authorized by Prabhupada, than the
fact that you aren't aware of how to treat other people respectfully.
Well, good luck with that. My preference isn't just for me, it is for
you too.

As I said, you don't really like it here, why don't you just toddle
off somewhere else and leave all us clueless people alone. That's
right, don't let the door hit you too hard on the way out.

Hare Krsna

> ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.

[Greg Jay]

Sour grapes!

GKD

[brenda macedo]

Hare Bol Gauridasa!   Thank you for your reply... How are you and your sons? Many thanks for your write up on the Vedas... but, I already know this....   But the Vedas are very extensive, and after all, don't they also include the texts I've already listed... as I  mentioned to Mark who rebutted Greg Jay's comments below?   It's true that I cannot seem to find a reference to Ravana's incestous desire for Sita in ISKCON texts... But then that was my original query. Why do our ISKCON shastras not seem to go back far enough to explain in more detail how Sita came about, when other scriptures do??

I want to know everything on Sita...not just be spoon fed a few morsals.

I will keep researching and in the meantime, please, everyone, keep searching for any references about Sita's relationship with Ravana in literature which has been approved by Srila Prabhupada... Email me if you find anything... thx.   In the meantime, Mark has given a great reply on istag...@googlegroups.com and I've entered this reply below.   Rajesvari   __________   Hare Krsna Mataji,

ys B.Mark ______________   This one was in response to Greg Jay:

From: mark <markmac...@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Local: Tues, May 4 2010 9:44 pm Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

All you did was claim she had been fooled, ("shouldn't believe everything your read"), and cite no authority but your own say so. The

Your second post was black and white.

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Gauridasa Pandita <gaur...@aol.com> wrote:

From: Gauridasa Pandita <gaur...@aol.com> Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

To: "Patrick Hedemark" <pdhed...@yahoo.com> Cc: "Greg Jay" <jay....@gmail.com>, "brenda macedo" <brenda...@yahoo.com>, "ange...@yahoo.com" <ange...@yahoo.com>, "abhaya_m...@yahoo.com" <abhaya_m...@yahoo.com>, "adik...@gmail.com" <adik...@gmail.com>, "angin...@yahoo.com" <angin...@yahoo.com>, "alice...@att.net" <alice...@att.net>, "alexandre...@yahoo.ca" <alexandre...@yahoo.ca>, "amey...@16108.com" <amey...@16108.com>, "bhaktat...@yahoo.com" <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>, "bhag...@hotmail.com" <bhag...@hotmail.com>, "cc...@yahoo.com" <cc...@yahoo.com>, "dasd...@aol.com" <dasd...@aol.com>, "das...@streamyx.com" <das...@streamyx.com>, "frank-...@hotmail.com" <frank-...@hotmail.com>, "gada...@yahoo.com" <gada...@yahoo.com>, "gaura...@gmail.com" <gaura...@gmail.com>, "gregpr...@yahoo.com" <gregpr...@yahoo.com>, "guruva...@yahoo.com" <guruva...@yahoo.com>, "hansa...@rocketmail.com" <hansa...@rocketmail.com>, "hanto...@hotmail.com" <hanto...@hotmail.com>, "has...@hotmail.com" <has...@hotmail.com>, "hks...@juno.com" <hks...@juno.com>, "hms...@yahoo.com" <hms...@yahoo.com>, "jagat...@yahoo.com" <jagat...@yahoo.com>, "jasm...@gmail.com" <jasm...@gmail.com>, "jlan...@live.com" <jlan...@live.com>, "july9...@yahoo.com" <july9...@yahoo.com>, "kamsa...@hotmail.com" <kamsa...@hotmail.com>, "khad...@wmconnect.com" <khad...@wmconnect.com>, "krishn...@hotmail.com" <krishn...@hotmail.com>, "krishn...@gmail.com" <krishn...@gmail.com>, "Krishn...@aol.com" <Krishn...@aol.com>, "krishna...@yahoo.com" <krishna...@yahoo.com>, "kanha...@hotmail.com" <kanha...@hotmail.com>, "krsn...@hotmail.com" <krsn...@hotmail.com>, "kumud...@aol.com" <kumud...@aol.com>, "limo...@yahoo.com" <limo...@yahoo.com>, "lak...@webtv.net" <lak...@webtv.net>, "madhu...@gmail.com" <madhu...@gmail.com>, "mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>, "markm...@yahoo.com" <markm...@yahoo.com>, "mystiq...@yahoo.com" <mystiq...@yahoo.com>, "nar...@yahoo.com" <nar...@yahoo.com>, "nityanan...@gmail.com" <nityanan...@gmail.com>, "nrsimh...@gmail.com" <nrsimh...@gmail.com>, "pari...@btinternet.com" <pari...@btinternet.com>, "praty...@gmail.com" <praty...@gmail.com>, "prtha_d...@hotmail.com" <prtha_d...@hotmail.com>, "pss...@juno.com" <pss...@juno.com>, "pg1...@netzero.net" <pg1...@netzero.net>, "radhika...@hotmail.com" <radhika...@hotmail.com>, "raghu...@rogers.com" <raghu...@rogers.com>, "rbenav...@yahoo.es" <rbenav...@yahoo.es>, "rc...@earthlink.net" <rc...@earthlink.net>, "roupamanja...@gmail.com" <roupamanja...@gmail.com>, "shyama...@disciples.com" <shyama...@disciples.com>, "srimu...@yahoo.com" <srimu...@yahoo.com>, "spiri...@mac.com" <spiri...@mac.com>, "stevie...@gmail.com" <stevie...@gmail.com>, "sunand...@hotmail.com" <sunand...@hotmail.com>, "sunil...@yahoo.com" <sunil...@yahoo.com>, "tamoha...@yahoo.ca" <tamoha...@yahoo.ca>, "trancendent...@hotmail.co.uk" <trancendent...@hotmail.co.uk>, "tulasim...@yahoo.de" <tulasim...@yahoo.de>, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, "urdh...@aol.com" <urdh...@aol.com>, "yasod...@yahoo.com" <yasod...@yahoo.com>, "zak...@earthlink.net" <zak...@earthlink.net>, "ugre...@gmail.com" <ugre...@gmail.com>, "vaishnava_t...@yahoo.com" <vaishnava_t...@yahoo.com>, "valy...@yahoo.com" <valy...@yahoo.com>, "vibh...@yahoo.com" <vibh...@yahoo.com>, "vidu...@hotmail.com" <vidu...@hotmail.com>, "vikash...@hotmail.com" <vikash...@hotmail.com>, "visho...@yahoo.com" <visho...@yahoo.com>, "visv...@hotmail.com" <visv...@hotmail.com>, "istag...@googlegroups.com" <istag...@googlegroups.com>, "dasarath" <dasa...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <hari...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <hari...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jaga...@hotmail.com>, "lal...@gmail.com" <lal...@gmail.com>, "malati...@yahoo.com" <malati...@yahoo.com> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 7:12 PM

Dear Prabhus,  Dandavats! AGT HDG Srila Prabhupada! It's nice to have devotee parents, but being a devotee ourselves is most important. Prahlada Maharaja is a Mahajana, yet son of the big demon Hiranyakasipu.     Sita should never be questioned! She already passed the fire test, she is always completely pure and worshipable by us.     I know your interest was innocent but GKP is right about accepting the proper authority. For us that's Srila Prabhupada. He gave us what we need to know. So stick to his books and be carefore about other so-called 'authorities.'    Her Appearance Day along with Jahnava Devi's is on May 21st ~  Jai Sri Sri Sita Rama!!! Hoping this meets you well and Happy in Krsna Consciousness Your eternal friend and servant Gauridasa Pandita Dasa BHAKTI SHAKTI

On May 4, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Brenda, Dandavats.  In order to understand the appearance and pastimes of the Lord and His Consorts - one needs to understand the scientific method by which we are able to access the correct presentation of this wonderful information: The Vedic Scriptures vibrated exclusively by a cent per cent pure devotee of the Lord Himself.  Might I suggest you carefully digest the wonderful Introduction to the Sri Isopanisad by our dear Srila Prabhupada. This will help you to understand the absolute value assigned these scriptures and their explanations of all the details surrounding the pastimes of the Lord. "Teachings of the Vedas" [Delivered as a lecture by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda on October 6, 1969, at Conway Hall, London, England.] Ladies and gentlemen, today's subject matter is the teachings of the Vedas. What are the Vedas? The Sanskrit verbal root of veda can be interpreted variously, but the purport is finally one. Veda means knowledge. Any knowledge you accept is veda, for the teachings of the Vedas are the original knowledge. In the conditioned state, our knowledge is subjected to many deficiencies. The difference between a conditioned soul and a liberated soul is that the conditioned soul has four kinds of defects. The first defect is that he must commit mistakes. For example, in our country, Mahatma Gandhi was considered to be a very great personality, but he committed many mistakes. Even at the last stage of his life, his assistant warned, "Mahatma Gandhi, don't go to the New Delhi meeting. I have some friends, and I have heard there is danger." But he did not hear. He persisted in going and was killed. Even great personalities like Mahatma Gandhi, President Kennedy-there are so many of them-make mistakes. To err is human. This is one defect of the conditioned soul. Another defect: to be illusioned. Illusion means to accept something which is not: māyā. Māyā means "what is not." Everyone is accepting the body as the self. If I ask you what you are, you will say, "I am Mr. John; I am a rich man; I am this; I am that." All these are bodily identifications. But you are not this body. This is illusion. The third defect is the cheating propensity. Everyone has the propensity to cheat others. Although a person is fool number one, he poses himself as very intelligent. Although it is already pointed out that he is in illusion and makes mistakes, he will theorize: "I think this is this, this is this." But he does not even know his own position. He writes books of philosophy, although he is defective. That is his disease. That is cheating. Lastly, our senses are imperfect. We are very proud of our eyes. Often, someone will challenge, "Can you show me God?" But do you have the eyes to see God? You will never see if you haven't the eyes. If immediately the room becomes dark, you cannot even see your hands. So what power do you have to see? We cannot, therefore, expect knowledge (veda) with these imperfect senses. With all these deficiencies, in conditioned life we cannot give perfect knowledge to anyone. Nor are we ourselves perfect. Therefore we accept the Vedas as they are. You may call the Vedas Hindu, but "Hindu" is a foreign name. We are not Hindus. Our real identification is varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama denotes the followers of the Vedas, those who accept the human society in eight divisions of varṇa and āśrama. There are four divisions of society and four divisions of spiritual life. This is called varṇāśrama. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.13), "These divisions are everywhere because they are created by God." The divisions of society are brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Brāhmaṇa refers to the very intelligent class of men, those who know what is Brahman. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, the administrator group, are the next intelligent class of men. Then the vaiśyas, the mercantile group. These natural classifications are found everywhere. This is the Vedic principle, and we accept it. Vedic principles are accepted as axiomatic truth, for there cannot be any mistake. That is acceptance. For instance, in India cow dung is accepted as pure, and yet cow dung is the stool of an animal. In one place you'll find the Vedic injunction that if you touch stool, you have to take a bath immediately. But in another place it is said that the stool of a cow is pure. If you smear cow dung in an impure place, that place becomes pure. With our ordinary sense we can argue, "This is contradictory." Actually, it is contradictory from the ordinary point of view, but it is not false. It is fact. In Calcutta, a very prominent scientist and doctor analyzed cow dung and found that it contains all antiseptic properties. In India if one person tells another, "You must do this," the other party may say, "What do you mean? Is this a Vedic injunction, that I have to follow you without any argument?" Vedic injunctions cannot be interpreted. But ultimately, if you carefully study why these injunctions are there, you will find that they are all correct. The Vedas are not compilations of human knowledge. Vedic knowledge comes from the spiritual world, from Lord Kṛṣṇa. Another name for the Vedas isśruti. Śruti refers to that knowledge which is acquired by hearing. It is not experimental knowledge. Śruti is considered to be like a mother. We take so much knowledge from our mother. For example, if you want to know who your father is, who can answer you? Your mother. If the mother says, "Here is your father," you have to accept it. It is not possible to experiment to find out whether he is your father. Similarly, if you want to know something beyond your experience, beyond your experimental knowledge, beyond the activities of the senses, then you have to accept the Vedas. There is no question of experimenting. It has already been experimented. It is already settled. The version of the mother, for instance, has to be accepted as truth. There is no other way. The Vedas are considered to be the mother, and Brahmā is called the grandfather, the forefather, because he was the first to be instructed in the Vedic knowledge. In the beginning the first living creature was Brahmā. He received this Vedic knowledge and imparted it to Nārada and other disciples and sons, and they also distributed it to their disciples. In this way, the Vedic knowledge comes down by disciplic succession. It is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā that Vedic knowledge is understood in this way. If you make experimental endeavor, you come to the same conclusion, but just to save time you should accept. If you want to know who your father is and if you accept your mother as the authority, then whatever she says can be accepted without argument. There are three kinds of evidence: pratyakṣa, anumāna and śabda. Pratyakṣa means "direct evidence." Direct evidence is not very good because our senses are not perfect. We are seeing the sun daily, and it appears to us just like a small disc, but it is actually far, far larger than many planets. Of what value is this seeing? Therefore we have to read books; then we can understand about the sun. So direct experience is not perfect. Then there is anumāna, inductive knowledge: "It may be like this"-hypothesis. For instance, Darwin's theory says it may be like this, it may be like that. But that is not science. That is a suggestion, and it is also not perfect. But if you receive the knowledge from the authoritative sources, that is perfect. If you receive a program guide from the radio station authorities, you accept it. You don't deny it; you don't have to make an experiment, because it is received from the authoritative sources. Vedic knowledge is called śabda-pramāṇa. Another name is śruti. Śruti means that this knowledge has to be received simply by aural reception. The Vedas instruct that in order to understand transcendental knowledge, we have to hear from the authority. Transcendental knowledge is knowledge from beyond this universe. Within this universe is material knowledge, and beyond this universe is transcendental knowledge. We cannot even go to the end of the universe, so how can we go to the spiritual world? Thus to acquire full knowledge is impossible. There is a spiritual sky. There is another nature, which is beyond manifestation and nonmanifestation. But how will you know that there is a sky where the planets and inhabitants are eternal? All this knowledge is there, but how will you make experiments? It is not possible. Therefore you have to take the assistance of the Vedas. This is called Vedic knowledge. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we are accepting knowledge from the highest authority, Kṛṣṇa.Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the highest authority by all classes of men. I am speaking first of the two classes of transcendentalists. One class of transcendentalists is called impersonalistic, Māyāvādī. They are generally known as Vedāntists, led by Śańkarācārya. And there is another class of transcendentalists, called Vaiṣṇavas, like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu-svāmī. Both the Śańkara-sampradāya and the Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Śańkarācārya is supposed to be an impersonalist who preached impersonalism, impersonal Brahman, but it is a fact that he is a covered personalist. In his commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā he wrote, "Nārāyaṇa, the Su-preme Personality of Godhead, is beyond this cosmic manifestation." And then again he confirmed, "That Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, is Kṛṣṇa. He has come as the son of Devakī and Vasudeva." He particularly mentioned the names of His father and mother. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all transcendentalists. There is no doubt about it. Our source of knowledge in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the Bhagavad-gītā, which comes directly from Kṛṣṇa. We have published the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is because we acceptKṛṣṇa as He is speaking, without any interpretation. That is Vedic knowledge. Since the Vedic knowledge is pure, we accept it. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That saves much time. If you accept the right authority, or source of knowledge, then you save much time. For example, there are two systems of knowledge in the material world: inductive and deductive. From deductive, you accept that man is mortal. Your father says man is mortal, your sister says man is mortal, everyone says man is mortal-but you do not experiment. You accept it as a fact that man is mortal. If you want to research to find out whether man is mortal, you have to study each and every man, and you may come to think that there may be some man who is not dying but you have not seen him yet. So in this way your research will never be finished. In Sanskrit this process is called āroha, the ascending process. If you want to attain knowledge by any personal endeavor, by exercising your imperfect senses, you will never come to the right conclusions. That is not possible. There is a statement in the Brahma-saḿhitā: Just ride on the airplane which runs at the speed of mind. Our material airplanes can run two thousand miles per hour, but what is the speed of mind? You are sitting at home, you immediately think of India-say, ten thousand miles away-and at once it is in your home. Your mind has gone there. The mind-speed is so swift. Therefore it is stated, "If you travel at this speed for millions of years, you'll find that the spiritual sky is unlimited." It is not possible even to approach it. Therefore, the Vedic injunction is that one must approach-the word "compulsory" is used-a bona fide spiritual master, a guru. And what is the qualification of a spiritual master? He is one who has rightly heard the Vedic message from the right source. And he must practically be firmly established in Brahman. These are the two qualities he must have. Otherwise he is not bona fide. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is completely authorized from Vedic principles. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, "The actual aim of Vedic research is to find out Kṛṣṇa." In the Brahma-saḿhitā it is also stated, "Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, has innumerable forms, but they are all one." They are not like our forms, which are fallible. His form is infallible. My form has a beginning, but His form has no beginning. It is ananta. And His form-so many multiforms-has no end. My form is sitting here and not in my apartment. You are sitting there and not in your apartment. But Kṛṣṇa can be everywhere at one time. He can sit down in GolokaVṛndāvana, and at the same time He is everywhere, all-pervading. He is original, the oldest, but whenever you look at a picture of Kṛṣṇa you'll find a young boy fifteen or twenty years old. You will never find an old man. You have seen pictures of Kṛṣṇa as a charioteer from the Bhagavad-gītā. At that time He was not less than one hundred years old. He had great-grandchildren, but He looked just like a boy. Kṛṣṇa, God, never becomes old. That is His supreme power. And if you want to search out Kṛṣṇa by studying the Vedic literature, then you will be baffled. It may be possible, but it is very difficult. But you can very easily learn about Him from His devotee. His devotee can deliver Him to you: "Here He is, take Him." That is the potency of Kṛṣṇa's devotees. Originally there was only one Veda, and there was no necessity of reading it. People were so intelligent and had such sharp memories that by once hearing from the lips of the spiritual master they would understand. They would immediately grasp the whole purport. But five thousand years ago Vyāsadeva put the Vedas in writing for the people in this age, Kali-yuga. He knew that eventually the people would be short-lived, their memories would be very poor, and their intelligence would not be very sharp. "Therefore, let me teach this Vedic knowledge in writing." He divided the Vedas into four: Ṛg, Sāma, Atharva and Yajur. Then he gave the charge of these Vedas to his different disciples. He then thought of the less intelligent class of men-strī, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. He considered the woman class and śūdra class (worker class) and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu refers to those who are born in a high family but who are not properly qualified. A man who is born in the family of a brāhmaṇa but is not qualified as a brāhmaṇa is called dvija-bandhu. For these persons he compiled the Mahābhārata, called the history of India, and the eighteen Purāṇas. These are all part of the Vedic literature: the Purāṇas, the Mahābhārata, the four Vedas and the Upaniṣads. The Upaniṣads are part of the Vedas. Then Vyāsadeva summarized all Vedic knowledge for scholars and philosophers in what is called theVedānta-sūtra. This is the last word of the Vedas. Vyāsadeva personally wrote the Vedānta-sūtra under the instructions of Nārada, his Guru Mahārāja (spiritual master), but still he was not satisfied. That is a long story, described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Vedavyāsa was not very satisfied even after compiling many Purāṇas and Upaniṣads, and even after writing theVedānta-sūtra. Then his spiritual master, Nārada, instructed him, "You explain the Vedānta-sūtra." Vedānta means "ultimate knowledge," and the ultimate knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that throughout all the Vedas one has to understand Him: vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the compiler of the Vedānta-sūtra, and I am the knower of the Vedas." Therefore the ultimate objective is Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in all the Vaiṣṇava commentaries on Vedāntaphilosophy. We Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas have our commentary on Vedānta philosophy, called Govinda-bhāṣya, by Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa. Similarly, Rāmānujācārya has a commentary, and Madhvācārya has one. The version of Śańkarācārya is not the only commentary. There are many Vedānta commentaries, but because the Vaiṣṇavas did not present the first Vedānta commentary, people are under the wrong impression that Śańkarācārya's is the only Vedānta commentary. Besides that, Vyāsadeva himself wrote the perfect Vedānta commentary, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins with the first words of theVedānta-sūtra: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. And that janmādy asya yataḥ is fully explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The Vedānta-sūtra simply hints at what isBrahman, the Absolute Truth: "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything emanates." This is a summary, but it is explained in detail inŚrīmad-Bhāgavatam. If everything is emanating from the Absolute Truth, then what is the nature of the Absolute Truth? That is explained inŚrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The Absolute Truth must be consciousness. He is self-effulgent (sva-rāṭ). We develop our consciousness and knowledge by receiving knowledge from others, but for Him it is said that He is self-effulgent. The whole summary of Vedic knowledge is the Vedānta-sūtra, and the Vedānta-sūtra is explained by the writer himself in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We finally request those who are actually after Vedic knowledge to try to understand the explanation of all Vedic knowledge from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Bhagavad-gītā.

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, brenda macedo <brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: brenda macedo <brenda...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

To: "Greg Jay" <jay....@gmail.com> Cc: ange...@yahoo.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, angin...@yahoo.com, alice...@att.net, alexandre...@yahoo.ca, amey...@16108.com, bhaktat...@yahoo.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, cc...@yahoo.com, dasd...@aol.com, das...@streamyx.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gada...@yahoo.com, Gaur...@aol.com, gaura...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hansa...@rocketmail.com, hanto...@hotmail.com, has...@hotmail.com, hks...@juno.com, hms...@yahoo.com, jagat...@yahoo.com, jasm...@gmail.com, jlan...@live.com, july9...@yahoo.com, kamsa...@hotmail.com, khad...@wmconnect.com, krishn...@hotmail.com, krishn...@gmail.com, Krishn...@aol.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, kanha...@hotmail.com, krsn...@hotmail.com, kumud...@aol.com, limo...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, madhu...@gmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, markm...@yahoo.com, mystiq...@yahoo.com, nar...@yahoo.com, nityanan...@gmail.com, nrsimh...@gmail.com, pari...@btinternet.com, pdhed...@yahoo.com, praty...@gmail.com, prtha_d...@hotmail.com, pss...@juno.com, pg1...@netzero.net, radhika...@hotmail.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rbenav...@yahoo.es, rc...@earthlink.net, roupamanja...@gmail.com, shyama...@disciples.com, srimu...@yahoo.com, spiri...@mac.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, sunil...@yahoo.com, tamoha...@yahoo.ca, trancendent...@hotmail.co.uk, tulasim...@yahoo.de, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, urdh...@aol.com, yasod...@yahoo.com, zak...@earthlink.net, ugre...@gmail.com, vaishnava_t...@yahoo.com, valy...@yahoo.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, vikash...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, "dasarath" <dasa...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <hari...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <hari...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jaga...@hotmail.com>, lal...@gmail.com, malati...@yahoo.com

Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 5:25 PM

Yes, Sita was found "in the earth..." But what else do we know about her??   By the way, most of these accounts have been repeated in various forms by learned sages I've encountered from India... so it's not just believing in things I've read... Perhaps this insight was too scandelous from an ISKCON

perspective...which takes everything literally...

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...

To: "brenda macedo" <brenda...@yahoo.com> Cc: ange...@yahoo.com, abhaya_m...@yahoo.com, adik...@gmail.com, angin...@yahoo.com, alice...@att.net, alexandre...@yahoo.ca, amey...@16108.com, bhaktat...@yahoo.com, bhag...@hotmail.com, cc...@yahoo.com, dasd...@aol.com, das...@streamyx.com, frank-...@hotmail.com, gada...@yahoo.com, Gaur...@aol.com, gaura...@gmail.com, gregpr...@yahoo.com, guruva...@yahoo.com, hansa...@rocketmail.com, hanto...@hotmail.com, has...@hotmail.com, hks...@juno.com, hms...@yahoo.com, jagat...@yahoo.com, jasm...@gmail.com, jlan...@live.com, july9...@yahoo.com, kamsa...@hotmail.com, khad...@wmconnect.com, krishn...@hotmail.com, krishn...@gmail.com, Krishn...@aol.com, krishna...@yahoo.com, kanha...@hotmail.com, krsn...@hotmail.com, kumud...@aol.com, limo...@yahoo.com, lak...@webtv.net, madhu...@gmail.com, mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk, markm...@yahoo.com, mystiq...@yahoo.com, nar...@yahoo.com, nityanan...@gmail.com, nrsimh...@gmail.com, pari...@btinternet.com, pdhed...@yahoo.com, praty...@gmail.com, prtha_d...@hotmail.com, pss...@juno.com, pg1...@netzero.net, radhika...@hotmail.com, raghu...@rogers.com, rbenav...@yahoo.es, rc...@earthlink.net, roupamanja...@gmail.com, shyama...@disciples.com, srimu...@yahoo.com, spiri...@mac.com, stevie...@gmail.com, sunand...@hotmail.com, sunil...@yahoo.com, tamoha...@yahoo.ca, trancendent...@hotmail.co.uk, tulasim...@yahoo.de, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, urdh...@aol.com, yasod...@yahoo.com, zak...@earthlink.net, ugre...@gmail.com, vaishnava_t...@yahoo.com, valy...@yahoo.com, vibh...@yahoo.com, vidu...@hotmail.com, vikash...@hotmail.com, visho...@yahoo.com, visv...@hotmail.com, istag...@googlegroups.com, "dasarath" <dasa...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <hari...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <hari...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jaga...@hotmail.com>, lal...@gmail.com, malati...@yahoo.com

Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 3:18 PM

Greg Jay (jay....@gmail.com) was added to your Guest List by their request | Delete this guest |

[mark]

Mataji,

If one is swanlike there was some milk to be found in the watered down
attempt by Gaura Keshava Das to inspire awe and reverence for himself
and his knowledge, knowledge which hasn't seemed to result entirely in
Vijnana yet, but you were only looking for facts anyway and he at
least seems to be able to pronounce the words properly.

Especially noteworthy was that he worked on a project wherein,
presumably, certain "prabhupada approved" translations of Valmiki's
Ramayana were archived.

Perhaps if you praised him for such wonderful service he might deem to
allow you to request where you can access these versions and thus
satisfy any curiousities you might have regarding the details of those
pasttimes that are not mentioned in the 9th canto.

Tulsi das obviously heard from some translation of Valmiki before he
was "inspired" to provide his interpretation of what he heard, likely
most of it is verbatim so a swan could find the nectar. However, the
mayavadi tinge Srila Prabhupada mentioned led to whatever non-bonafide
interpretations there would be in his version, and best to find a
strict Valmiki translation without chance of interpretation if
possible.

> --- On Tue, 5/4/10, Gauridasa Pandita <gauri...@aol.com> wrote:

>
> From: Gauridasa Pandita <gauri...@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Sita, Ravana's daughter...
> To: "Patrick Hedemark" <pdhedem...@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "Greg Jay" <jay.g...@gmail.com>, "brenda macedo" <brendammac...@yahoo.com>, "angel1...@yahoo.com" <angel1...@yahoo.com>, "abhaya_mudra2...@yahoo.com" <abhaya_mudra2...@yahoo.com>, "adiku...@gmail.com" <adiku...@gmail.com>, "angini1...@yahoo.com" <angini1...@yahoo.com>, "alice.b...@att.net" <alice.b...@att.net>, "alexandre_jablon...@yahoo.ca" <alexandre_jablon...@yahoo.ca>, "ameya...@16108.com" <ameya...@16108.com>, "bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com" <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com>, "bhagwa...@hotmail.com" <bhagwa...@hotmail.com>, "cc...@yahoo.com" <cc...@yahoo.com>, "dasdas...@aol.com" <dasdas...@aol.com>, "dasc...@streamyx.com" <dasc...@streamyx.com>, "frank-n-st...@hotmail.com" <frank-n-st...@hotmail.com>, "gadaid...@yahoo.com" <gadaid...@yahoo.com>, "gaurakis...@gmail.com" <gaurakis...@gmail.com>, "gregpradyu...@yahoo.com" <gregpradyu...@yahoo.com>, "guruvagmi...@yahoo.com" <guruvagmi...@yahoo.com>, "hansadu...@rocketmail.com" <hansadu...@rocketmail.com>,
>  "hantonj...@hotmail.com" <hantonj...@hotmail.com>, "hast...@hotmail.com" <hast...@hotmail.com>, "hks...@juno.com" <hks...@juno.com>, "hmst...@yahoo.com" <hmst...@yahoo.com>, "jagatka...@yahoo.com" <jagatka...@yahoo.com>, "jasmin...@gmail.com" <jasmin...@gmail.com>, "jlange...@live.com" <jlange...@live.com>, "july9th...@yahoo.com" <july9th...@yahoo.com>, "kamsaha...@hotmail.com" <kamsaha...@hotmail.com>, "khadi...@wmconnect.com" <khadi...@wmconnect.com>, "krishnaisl...@hotmail.com" <krishnaisl...@hotmail.com>, "krishnaki...@gmail.com" <krishnaki...@gmail.com>, "KrishnaDa...@aol.com" <KrishnaDa...@aol.com>, "krishnadasbe...@yahoo.com" <krishnadasbe...@yahoo.com>, "kanhaiya...@hotmail.com" <kanhaiya...@hotmail.com>, "krsnad...@hotmail.com" <krsnad...@hotmail.com>, "kumudav...@aol.com" <kumudav...@aol.com>, "limor...@yahoo.com" <limor...@yahoo.com>, "laks...@webtv.net" <laks...@webtv.net>, "madhuhad...@gmail.com" <madhuhad...@gmail.com>,
>  "mahesh_ag...@yahoo.co.uk" <mahesh_ag...@yahoo.co.uk>, "markmac...@yahoo.com" <markmac...@yahoo.com>, "mystique_1...@yahoo.com" <mystique_1...@yahoo.com>, "naro...@yahoo.com" <naro...@yahoo.com>, "nityanandaram...@gmail.com" <nityanandaram...@gmail.com>, "nrsimhana...@gmail.com" <nrsimhana...@gmail.com>, "parij...@btinternet.com" <parij...@btinternet.com>, "pratyat...@gmail.com" <pratyat...@gmail.com>, "prtha_devi_d...@hotmail.com" <prtha_devi_d...@hotmail.com>, "pss...@juno.com" <pss...@juno.com>, "pg1...@netzero.net" <pg1...@netzero.net>, "radhikagard...@hotmail.com" <radhikagard...@hotmail.com>, "raghumis...@rogers.com" <raghumis...@rogers.com>, "rbenavent1...@yahoo.es" <rbenavent1...@yahoo.es>, "rc...@earthlink.net" <rc...@earthlink.net>, "roupamanjaridevid...@gmail.com" <roupamanjaridevid...@gmail.com>, "shyamasund...@disciples.com" <shyamasund...@disciples.com>, "srimuku...@yahoo.com" <srimuku...@yahoo.com>, "spirits...@mac.com"
>  <spirits...@mac.com>, "steviedrea...@gmail.com" <steviedrea...@gmail.com>, "sunandana...@hotmail.com" <sunandana...@hotmail.com>, "sunilma...@yahoo.com" <sunilma...@yahoo.com>, "tamoharad...@yahoo.ca" <tamoharad...@yahoo.ca>, "trancendentaltechnol...@hotmail.co.uk" <trancendentaltechnol...@hotmail.co.uk>, "tulasimahar...@yahoo.de" <tulasimahar...@yahoo.de>, "mandapa dasa" <tu...@planet1.info>, "urdhv...@aol.com" <urdhv...@aol.com>, "yasoda1...@yahoo.com" <yasoda1...@yahoo.com>, "zakh...@earthlink.net" <zakh...@earthlink.net>, "ugresa...@gmail.com" <ugresa...@gmail.com>, "vaishnava_thakura_d...@yahoo.com" <vaishnava_thakura_d...@yahoo.com>, "valyav...@yahoo.com" <valyav...@yahoo.com>, "vibhuv...@yahoo.com" <vibhuv...@yahoo.com>, "vidura...@hotmail.com" <vidura...@hotmail.com>, "vikashdoka...@hotmail.com" <vikashdoka...@hotmail.com>, "vishoka_...@yahoo.com" <vishoka_...@yahoo.com>, "visva...@hotmail.com" <visva...@hotmail.com>,
>  "istag...@googlegroups.com" <istag...@googlegroups.com>, "dasarath" <dasar...@sedonavedicculture.com>, "Haribasura Dasa" <harib...@pacbell.net>, "harivilas" <harivi...@uncleharrys.com>, "Jagajjanani" <jagab...@hotmail.com>, "lal...@gmail.com" <lal...@gmail.com>, "malatiflow...@yahoo.com" <malatiflow...@yahoo.com>
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 7:12 PM
>
> Dear Prabhus, 
> Dandavats! AGT HDG Srila Prabhupada!
> It's nice to have devotee parents, but being a devotee ourselves is most important. Prahlada Maharaja is a Mahajana, yet son of the big demon Hiranyakasipu. 

>    Sita should never be questioned! She already ...
>
> read more »