The Karma of Queen Draupadi

[Brenda Brinkley]

In the Bhagavatams, there is the question of Draupadi.   

When the Pandavas got drunk and gambled off their wife, Draupadi, what was her karma? 

As a woman, I want to know, why did this happened to her? Was it her karma or simply the poor judgement of the Pandavas who were drinking and gambling?

And if the Pandavas were acting not acting out of righteousness, why are we supposed to revere them as exalted? 

And if the Pandavas are exalted, and could not protect Draupadi, then why would any woman want to take shelter of a regular man? 

If the message is to take shelter of Krisna, instead of regular men, then why did Krisna allow a tidal wave to sink the city of Dwarka and the inhabitants?   Where was Krisna's protection then?

These questions have never been satisfactorily answered in ISKCON.  

When Pralhad Maharaj was first abused, where was Krisna? Why did the abuse have to go on before Krisna appeared?

And why has the pain and abuse of women, children and the earth gone on so long?  The only explanation it gives in the Bhagavatam, is that when Lord Indra was cursed by his spiritual master, the karmic reaction was so heavy, he had to distribute it on the earth to women, plants and animals. Thus, the pain horrible pain in childbirth and hellish monthly cycles are suffered by all women.  But neither I or any woman I’ve talked to, ever volunteered to accept the karma for Lord Indra. 

 
Another instance of an injustice is outlined in the Baghavatam was when the great sage, Manduka Muni was sentenced to death by earthly authorities, by mistake for something he did not do.  Amazingly, even though he led a saintly life, punishment was authorized by Lord Yamaraj. Manduka Muni challenges Lord Yamaraj and accuses him of unjustly accusing him.  Aparantly, he killed an ant while still a child, prior to the age of reason,so Yamaraj felt justified in doing this.  

Manduka Muni curses Yamaraj, thus, adding to the long chain of curses in the Bhagavatams.

It wasn't only Manduka Muni who used curses. The Bhagavatams are full of them.  The demi-gods often took great offense when they are questioned or their power is challenged in any way, as when Chitra Ketu questioned Siva.

I believe this was also an unjust curse, but that is not only my main concern.  The power structure is all wrong...

Lord Shiva, god of the demons, is known to give boons and powers to anyone, 
even to demons.  So in that way, any demon can pose a threat or deceive good people simply
they perform a few austerities...thus, you have so many fallen yogis and false gurus in India, displaying powers to seduce people.  It becomes obvious
from studying the Bhagavatam and Vedic literature that we are all at the whims of more powerful demi-gods, who also have the power to mis-qualify their free will onto us, and it's not necessarily our own fault or karma.

Greek mythology is also replete with instances where
gods, goddesses and demigods, through the
mis-qualification of their own free will, inflict
unjust punishments upon less powerful, earthly
mortals.  It seems that the Bhagavatam is also full of
these examples.

It is also stated that Lord Indra becomes anxious
whenever certain fire yagyas are performed involving
horse sacrifices.  In order to achieve the exalted
post of “king of heaven” one needs to perform a hundred of these fire sacrifices. 

Lord Indra deliberately tried to sabotage the fire

sacrifices of King Pritu when he was just about to

receive the post of Lord of Heaven. It was not King Pritu's karma to have his horse sacrifices interrupted by Indra.  It was Indra's jealousy that caused that.

Perhaps the most disturbing examples of unjust
suffering occur when a pure devotee suffers for the
sins of others, such as Jesus. Queen Kunti  also
“suffered for the sake of religion,” as well as
Haridas Thakur, just to name a few…
To say that these devotees don’t count as examples
because they are pure devotees is also limited.

In the economy of the material universe, there is
always a price to pay, no matter who you are…a high
price.  Many Christian martyrs who were burned alive
at the stake were not pure devotees, and yet suffered
to pay the price for many to be saved.  I am convinced that every person has the opportunity to hold the “balance” for another if they wish to.  

A mother holds the balance for her child, and willingly makes sacrifices and suffers for that child, even though it may not be her karma.  For example, Ghandari, wife of Dhritarasthra sacrificed all of her austerities to benefit her son, Duryodhana.  Ghandari was burned alive in a forest fire.

Why does Krisna allow his devotees to be burned alive?

In more recent times, Aindra Prabhu was burned alive and as well, several pujaris offering arati have been burned alive on the alter while doing diety worship.

Where was Krisna's protection then?

Is it always karma that affects us?

Since Srila Prabhupada is gone, and I could not ask him in person about this issue, I approached the Dalai Lama on the subject of karma.  The Dalai Lama believes in karma and reincarnation and has been honored on the "Chakra" website.

I asked him, why the Tibetan people had to suffer at the hands of the communist Chinese, unspeakable tortures.  He said “no, only 50%.”  

In one way, we are all like Manduka Muni, because we are all pre-mature in our ability to reason.  Until we go through being burned alive or drowned to death, we cannot know what it is like.  Therefore, we have to ask, why was the possibility of inflicting such harm given to us in the first place? 
Why would Krisna have allowed the more powerful demi-gods to create such miserable, material bodies which contain over 250 billion nerve endings all designed to feel pain?

  The main teaching about karma states that there is a law of karma, but it does not state that it applies to every situation.  One needs to remember that the demi-gods also have free will and can fall or make mistakes. You even have a puffed-former guru from ISKCON saying things like: "If women are stupid enough to sleep with me, it's their karma..."  But most of this is justifying their own deception. 

To protect innocents, mothers, wise ones and avatars can take on the karma of their children or disciples, or protect others through their sacrifices.  Mothers do it for their children every day.   

I believe the role of Mother is very important.

As I reflect on "karma," I realize that in many cases, there is no "karma."

We need to begin dialoguing more about complexities of karma for a more mature understanding that will not be insensitive towards others.
Open-minded in discussion will help solve these dilemmas. 

[larry freeman p]

life's a bitch;

that's the way it 'works' in this material jail;

it's just 'regular' life in the prison house:  unfair, etc.;

we lost our rights just getting 'here';

unfortunately, we don't have 'rights'.

sad;

so,  get 'out'.

we are like in a theatre,

watching this (horror) movie.

If you identify with the movie, 

you are in hell;

if you don't identify with the movie,

and 'see' KRSNA, 

You are 'ok'

 

---

From: istag...@googlegroups.com <istag...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Brenda Brinkley <brendar...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 4:23 AM
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: The Karma of Queen Draupadi

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi.

[Brenda]

Hi Lakshmi,

I thought you were dead...haven't heard from you in years...

How are things?

Still in LA?

In contrast to your philosophy on life...that "life's a bitch",

I really liked what Sri Radha said about this below...

Hi Brenda,

First we have to give up the old time fear mongering religions that have kept people in a perpetual bondage to the mind.

Karma is not about punishment.  Punishment is a tool of the authoritative priest who want to control people out of fear.  It is a based on a disempowered perception of the self which has been indoctrinated in us by the priestly caste.  A great strategy for control.

We have to realize that the power is within us like the Wizard of Oz told Dorothy.  She was searching outwardly for an authority figure and found ou that she was her own authority.  All true pointers points to within, that the power is within.  Karma is only the lessons we have chosen to learn for our higher realizations so that we can expand in  unconditional love.  Fear is the only block to living our full potential.  Just dare to let go of outside authority.   Any true teacher would point you in the right direction, that the Kingdom(the expansiveness of our being) is within, ever-growing in love.

Love,

Radha

[Mario Pineda]

Hare Krishna Brenda. I appreciate very much your introspection. I wish I had read as much of the Bhagavatam as you have.

My view, is that we decided to come to this world which is like a jail. It was suggested by Sri Krishna we do not come here, but we thought we knew better. In a jail anything can happen. We must try our best to get out of the jail we have chosen. The experiences in the jail of this world are very harsh, because our determination to stay here is also most keen. So we need harsh experiences that will wake us up.

When we reach Krishna Loka, we will see all as a not real bad dream and we will forget it, as we will have a perfect life there.  

Contrary to what others say, I strongly believe as the Gita says, we need a spiritual master. We can not get out, without his guidance. This is the most important principle. Srila Prabhupada is such a master, but we tend to think others are or that we know better ourselves.

Again. I appreciate your introspection.

Sincerely,

Mahatma Das 

[Melanie L Nagel]

Introspection that leads to rejection of Krishna's primary instructions
is not going to liberate anyone.

--
I will no longer be using my AOL account, please use: malati...@gmail.com effectively immediately.

[Brenda]

So what now?  ... we all become robots?

[Jack Eskildsen]

Interesting discussion. I think I read in Prabhupada's books that when Krishna comes to the material world he simply executes his mission and doesn't mess around and that is why he sunk Dvaraka. His purpose was fulfilled and he returned home to spiritual world with his liberated devotees. Modern men are so trapped by material concept of life they can't accept instructions of a pure devotee like Prabhupada and they minimize his position. Time will conquer the puffed up material scientists and mental speculators but the words of Srimad Bhagavatam will stand true generation after generation. That is the way I see it.

[Jack Eskildsen]

The way I look at it is the materialists are the robots and they are mesmerized by maya. With Krishna you develop true love and since Krishna is the master of all mystics he can show you the most mind blowing aspects to reality, history etc.

[Brenda]

I have felt great love with Krisna over my 30 years of being a devotee...

states of ecstasy, bliss, and "bhakti."

But as Bhakti Vinod Thakur says in the "Seventh Goswami,"  all of these states can be manipulated by the demi-gods, or 

even by fallen yogis.  He describes Viswasain in his book as seducing all the village girls with special yogic powers.  

My point being, if even our feelings can be manipulated, then how can our feelings be a true gauge of who God is?  It's all manipulation.  Even our feelings....

And even the greatest feelings of ecstasy or love cannot equal the pain of death...

and since Krisna never had to go through death, he cannot know how it feels...

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Mario Pineda]

Hare Krishna Brenda. Respects. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!!

You are correct. The feelings of "love," "ecstasy" "bliss" and "bhakti" that you felt are nearly 100% not the true actual spiritual feelings, but those manipulated by the demigods, as you say.

We tend to want all cheap and easy as when we go to Wal-Mart and buy something cool, very cheap and in a few minutes. This is the trick of maya who caters to all, to keep us in illusion. Of course and since we are not very pure at all, we fall for it and then tend to blame Krishna for it all. I joke that soon, we will have a true guru and pure love of Krishna on special for .99 at Wal-Mart and other places. Of course, we should not buy the fast cheap version, for it's a huge fake!

Although Srila Praabhupada said that we can become 100% KC in a second and that we should try to finish our material business in one life time, when he was asked how long it would take for the bulk of us to become siddha or perfect, he responded., "hundreds of thousands of life times." This makes sense, because we have been in the material world for millions and millions of years in different bodies, solidifying our desire to be Krishna. So this is not so easy or fast to undo.

So since we tend to be intolerant and inpatient, we then start to speculate how Krishna must be wrong. The true gauge is when we become totally sincere after realizing that it's totally futile to try to figure it all out, still thinking that this material world is nice and without full surrender to guru and Krishna. When we stop thinking of ourselves as very clever, when in fact we are hoping and waiting for the next illicit sex experience, being this a gross kama or the more damaging and subtle pratishtha. 

I don't know where you got the realizations about death. I have been near death a couple of times. I have also seen others die. While Srila Prabhupada says that even a very advanced yogi fears death, I don't recall Srila Prabhupada say that it pales or shadows true spiritual ecstasy. Of the contrary, we have the example of Hari Das Thakur, who volunteered to die, when he found that the soldiers would be killed by the King if they were not successful at killing him. In most cases, the death process is not very long and one becomes immune to material pain. So it's not as painful and does not pail spiritual attainment. When I was near death, I relied on my KC and surrender to It and was actually indifferent, if I died or not. I realized I had never served Krishna with love, so I asked Krishna that if I had any credit, that I may live longer, so I may try to serve Him with love. He granted it. When it's a matter of real threat of leaving the body, one becomes very humble and sincere and surrenders to Krishna and Krishna reciprocates.

I think that the main fear of death, comes when we have still service to do and we may not be able to finish it. At least in my case, that is my main fear.

Krishna knows everything. He knows there is no death actually. It just seems to be for those who are too attached to matter. When we are in full true KC, we will understand that death was just an illusory nightmare that we will never again remember when fixed in real KC. So of the contrary, we will feel the ecstasy and never again remember the bad illusory dream. This is the siddhanta and not other thing.  

So not fast and easy, but long and requiring much tolerance and patience, till we truly surrender to Krishna. Jai Srila Prabhupada!!

Sincerely,

Mahatma Das   

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.

[Brenda]

I liked your response, up to this point, below...

I also had to enlarge the print because the print was so small....around point 6...

If anyone responds, I'm going to ask that you use print larger than point 12.

My comments in bold italics below.

I don't know where you got the realizations about death. 

Simple observations.  My father was a doctor and I've seen people die.  They suffer.

Srila Prabhupada suffered. Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja suffered.

Krisna can't suffer, he's the "god of pleasure."

He can arrange death, but can never feel it, even though he has a virat rupa, (which is highly controversial in itself.)

I have been near death a couple of times. I have also seen others die. While SrilaPrabhupada says that even a very advanced yogi fears death, I don't recall Srila Prabhupada say that it pales or shadows true spiritual ecstasy. Of the contrary, we have the example of Hari Das Thakur, who volunteered to die, when he found that the soldiers would be killed by the King if they were not successful at killing him. 

You're talking about a very advance soul here when you speak of Hari Das Thakur. One in a billion.  The rest of us suffer greatly and even yogis fear death.  

In most cases, the death process is not very long and one becomes immune to material pain.

W hat planet are you from?

 So it's not as painful and does not pail spiritual attainment. When I was near death, I relied on my KC and surrender to It and was actually indifferent, if I died or not. I realized I had never served Krishna with love, so I asked Krishna that if I had any credit, that I may live longer, so I may try to serve Him with love. He granted it. When it's a matter of real threat of leaving the body, one becomes very humble and sincere and surrenders to Krishna and Krishna reciprocates. 

I think that the main fear of death, comes when we have still service to do and we may not be able to finish it. At least in my case, that is my main fear.

You sound very devoted, but that does not negate that death is terribly painful.

If you think those devotees who burned alive on the alter while performing arati did not feel pain, you are naive.

Krishna knows everything. He knows there is no death actually. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

It just seems to be for those who are too attached to matter. When we are in full true KC, we will understand that death was just an illusory nightmare that we will never again remember when fixed in real KC. So of the contrary, we will feel the ecstasy and never again remember the bad illusory dream. 

In other words, you're attempting to describe Sadaputa's version of a virtual reality.

I wonder if Sadaputa felt it was just a virtual reality show while he was drowning in his swimming pool...

Devotees don't know what they're talking about when they equate our lives with a virtual reality machine.  A machine cannot feel pain, it does not have 250 billion nerve endings all designed to feel pain....that was God's handiwork. 

We dot nned to feel pain in our bones, or our teeth or anywhere to the degree that we do.

It's just a bad set-up constructed by a masochist....

This is the siddhanta and not other thing.  

So not fast and easy, but long and requiring much tolerance and patience, till we truly surrender to Krishna. Jai Srila Prabhupada!!

Sincerely,

Mahatma Das 

[Mario Pineda]

Hare Krishna Brenda. Thanks for the response.  Again. I like your introspection. Too bad I don't have what it takes intellectually to address it all, nor the time. But as we discuss, we get a little better perspective.

In the last 3 weeks, I heard of two young men who died. One was 24 and the other 27. One was my wife's nephew. The discussion also reminds me of when I was a kid and very sick. I hated needles, but I recall that I was so weak, that I did not care nor did I feel very much a huge needle that was stuck in my arm. So not much suffering really.

The two young men also. They had a short stay in the hospital. One was put to sleep, so he may not suffer due to a fractured cranium, and the other had a short few hours of short breath due to pneumonia and passed.

I think that suffering is good, because it means we are paying our karmic depbt and it reminds us of Lord Krishna, and the fact that we need to leave this world. Queen Kunti lost all of her grandchildren, but unlike some of us, she did not loose faith in Lord Krishna, but of the contrary, she thanked Him for the suffering made it so she would think of His lotus feet. Of course, we are way far from the KC of Queen Kunti, which is our llack of responsibility, and not that KC does not work..  

Many people have related that death was very beautiful too. Full of peace and beauty and incredible spiritual personalities. I have a friend who died and came back. He said that the experience was so beautiful, he regrets that due to his karma, he had to return. That is what many others have related. M friend tells me, that he is not at all afraid of death now. Of the contrary, he looks forward to it, due to his past experience of it. He knows he will again meet incredible spiritual personalities he met while "dead" before. 

I see suffering as good. For we are paying our karma and it makes us think of Sri Krishna.  Death is not always gustly suffering as some may think. To many, it's an incredibly beautiful experience.

It is not only Sri Krishna that does not suffer, but the Krishna conscious person or sincere soul or devotee, also does not suffer. The great devotee poet Thukaram, passed away in the most glorious way. Although the mayavatis threw his Bhagavatam into a river, goddess Sarasvati herself, gave the book back to him from the waters. Later, he was personally picked  up and taken to Krishna Loka by Garuda Himself! There were many witnesses t this event, which is still celebrated where it took place.

I am more am simple than., "intelligent," humanistic empathetic type. I am not a KC scholar. This is provably great, since there is no chance of me getting proud due to my., "knowledge." I can sincerely say, although I have to work very hard and I sense the uncertainties at times due to living in this world, the other had is that I have experienced what Sri Krishna promises in the last verse of the Gita. That is., morality, extraordinary power, opulence and victor in my humble life, due to the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Sri Krishna. This promises to get only better. I also sense that I am well on my way back to Godhead, although I don't know when that will be exactly.

At the end of the day, I think any sensible person who has come in contact with KC, will agree, that although we can not understand it all, KC has helped us in getting a much better glimpse of the Truth, and hope that we will attain more of the Truth, in future life to come. So it is positive and we should be grateful all the time about this. Life-Krishna and Srila Prabhupada are SO kind!! Jai Srila Prabhupada!!

Sincerely,

Mahatma Das    

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Brenda]

You mentioned you had a friend who died and came back, and that his experience after he left his body was beautiful.  Can I ask you what religion your friend was?

The reason I ask is because a study was done on people who crossed over in India who were basically Hindu and comparisons were made with Christians who had died and returned to life.

The contrast was staggering.

Most "Hindus" reported seeing Yamadutas and terrifying figures getting ready to take them to hell,

while most Christians reported seeing angels, or Christ coming to take them to heaven...

just an observation...

On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 8:46:18 AM UTC-4, Brenda wrote:

[Mario Pineda]

My friend was born a Christian-Catholic Italian, but he says his religion is., good people and very good people. I know of another Christian, from Argentina who saw the Yamadutas when near death, and then saw the same when he got a 5th Canto at an airport. He became a devotee, soon after that!

So it may be that different religions or spiritual cultures, make for different experiences, but we also have a mixture of "cultural" experiences  when not knowing previously of other cultures.

My friend is a UN special forces commander, trained to kill, but has a heart of gold.

MD