Is it OK to address female devotees as "Prabhu?"

[Pratyatosa]

From <http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=35762#comment-20447>:

SG says: …we address a woman as mataji or mother with reverence and man as prabhu or master.

So what you are saying is that women should not be addressed as “Prabhu” because women are never “masters,” only men! This is called “bodily consciousness.”

How do you explain the fact that Srila Prabhupada would sometimes refer to his female disciples as “Prabhu?”

[Mellanie L Nagel]

On 5/28/13 10:51 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:

How do you explain the fact that Srila Prabhupada would sometimes refer to his female disciples as “Prabhu?”

Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily identifications in favor of principal. He taught us to address one another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as "Prabhu" in order to teach the correct mood, "not that we become 'master,' but that we see all others as 'master.'

[Bhakta Mark]

Did he really teach us to do that?  Other than setting that example at times?

I wasn't there.

In researching the vedabase, I found that when addressing the issue, SP offered many levels or dimensions as to the appropriate use of the address "Prabhu".  He has said all Vaisnava can be addressed as Prabhu. He also said multiple times that it was for someone who had complete control of their senses.  He said it was for a spiritual master.  He said it was for anyone who was one's master.  One time, addressing Nandarani, he said that she was to address her "Godbrothers" as Prabhu, and went on to explain how she could recognize if one of her godbrothers took it the wrong way, specifically if they were not acting as the servant of the one who addressed them as master.

That is the real key.  A true master always acts for the best interest of the one they are master of, therefore they serve that person.  

It takes wisdom to realize that certain things a master asks you to do are for your own good, and that certain things might not be for your own good, and in that case you have a bad master.

By his example of addressing some women as Prabhu, he certainly was indicating the highest understanding of pure devotional service and most profound relationship between master and servant that we were all to understand at a fundamental level.  I don't see anything wrong with following this example and addressing a woman as Prabhu.  

But I was unable to find where Srila Prabhupada directly ordered that women or a particular woman be addressed as Prabhu.

There are however many instances of Srila Prabhupada directing that all women be addressed as Mataji or mother.  Within those instances, he also gives varying degrees of understanding of what that should mean, and there are parallels to the essence of the word Prabhu.  Because in some cases a Mother is your master, and what she asks you to do should be done because it is a service to you.  Yet in some cases a man must be giving direction to the mother, in service to her as her master.

As a matter of fact, if we take into account the totality of Srila Prabhupada's statements about how he wishes his male and female disciples to interact, especially in the social context that most will find themselves in, Mother seems to be the term that confers the most relevant understanding of the relationship between man and woman of any varna and asrama.  Which is likely why he instructed that to be used so many times.

The key is proper comprehensive education.  A properly educated devotee would understand that there are different roles for a "female prabhu" and a "male prabhu" and would be able to interact with them appropriately. Not that calling them both prabhu would confuse a properly educated person to somehow be unable to discern differentiate how to act toward a woman and how to act toward a man.  I would even say that with a good education and social sense, the address of a woman as mother would be generally more appropriate, with fewer times that using Prabhu would be just fine and appropriate in its own way.

On Tuesday, May 28, 2013 11:00:08 AM UTC-4, Malati Devi Dasi wrote:

On 5/28/13 10:51 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:

How do you explain the fact that Srila Prabhupada would sometimes refer to his female disciples as �Prabhu?�

Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily identifications in favor of principal.� He taught us to address one another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as "Prabhu" in order to teach the correct mood, "not that we become 'master,' but that we see all others as 'master.'

[Pratyatosa]

From <http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=35762#comment-20482>:

Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:   
29. May 2013 at 4:52 pm

SG says: [Srila Prabhupada] didn’t say its the norm in our society to address a woman as prabhu, did he?

According to Mother Malati Prabhu, GBC representative, one of Srila Prabhupada’s first disciples, and one of the most respected devotees in the movement, he most certainly did:

---- Forwarded message ----
From: Mellanie L Nagel
Date: Tue, May 28, 2013 at 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: Is it OK to address female devotees as "Prabhu?
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

On 5/28/13 10:51 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:
>

> How do you explain the fact that Srila Prabhupada would so

Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily identifications in favor of principal. He taught us to address one another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as "Prabhu" in order to teach the correct mood, "not that we become 'master,' but that we see all others as 'master.'"

(<http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/3c280805a20a80eb>)

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

Trinad api sunicena... Dasadasnudas... The whole point behind address using "Prabhu" - for male or female - or "Mataji" ("Mother") for ladies - is that we understand our position as servant of the servant, and [learn to] have proper respect for one another as aspiring Vaisnavas. (If we're supposed to learn to have respect for an ant, then what to speak of one another...) Responding to your (Mark prabhu's) following post, (seen only due to Pratyatosa prabhu's refererence): Mother Malati’s remembrance is from the very early days when Srila Prabhupada was introducing and emphasizing pure devotional service only. He had yet to begin introducing the very necessary social distinctions according to vedic culture, which he KNEW and CLAIMED were necessary because his disciples were not proving capable of acting on the plain of suddha Bhakti. Future orders supercede past orders, is that not one of Pratyatosa das’ favorite arguments? It is proper in most all circumstances that he uses it. It is proper now. The NORM is mataji. It is not wrong to educate others that Prabhupada used to call women Prabhu, and that “it is said” that early in the movement he said to address women like that. But that education should also be accompanied with the ‘REST OF THE STORY”, including the updated directive to use “mother”, what the difference is, and why. Otherwise, to just state “it is meant to be the norm that we address women as Prabhu” is truly misleading. And especially as there is NO vedabase reference to back it up. As late as Oct, 15 1976, Srila Prabhupada (in a letter) written to one of His female disciples, Sacimata, (prabhu) used the word "prabhu". My Dear Sacimata Prabhu, Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated 3rd October 1976 and I have noted the contents carefully.  Srila Prabhupada even referred to devotees who had not received initiation from Him, using the word "Prabhu" in the following Feb 16, and Apr 13, 1971 letters: My Dear Ranadhira, Please accept my blessings. . . Yes, I have all blessings for the happy marriage of Haladhara Prabhu and Joan Prabhu, so you may immediately do the needful in this regard. (16 February, 1971) (To Mukunda prabhu - at that time, not a sannyasi), Anna Prabhu may be initiated also and she has my blessings for being married to Puranda at the earliest convenience.  We "oldies" - from the pre Jan 1978 years, (unless our memory losses have reached that point of "goodbye") - remember very well the use of the word "Prabhu" in addressing everyone, regardless of whatever body they were possessed of; be they initiated or not. So for we "oldies," the ("NORM" - since you've used this word, and in capitals) was the use of the word "Prabhu," which again, we used in relationship to all devotees, male and female bodied. Ultimately, using "Mataji," or "Prabhu," the point is that we are supposed to mean it, seeing ourselves as servant, and having the proper respect for the other person in our using either word. The problem is that we just "throw out" this or that word (impersonally), "Prabhu," and/or "Mataji," without proper acceptance of the meaning to either. Your servant,  B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna --- On Tue, 5/28/13, Mellanie L Nagel <malat...@aol.com> wrote:

From: Mellanie L Nagel <malat...@aol.com> Subject: Re: Is it OK to address female devotees as "Prabhu?" To: istag...@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, May 28, 2013, 11:00 AM

On 5/28/13 10:51 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:

How do you explain the fact that Srila Prabhupada would sometimes refer to his female disciples as “Prabhu?”

Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily identifications in favor of principal.  He taught us to address one another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as "Prabhu" in order to teach the correct mood, "not that we become 'master,' but that we see all others as 'master.'

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi?hl=en.

[Bhakta Mark]

Mataji Prabhu

Pratyatosa das referred to the "norm in our society" by saying "Indeed it is" while pointing to Malati's remembrance as proof.

That is what I was responding to.

I could see where, among brahmanas in a formal setting, perhaps it might very well have been, or may again be normative to use Prabhu when addressing anyone and everyone.

It is just that the body of evidence regarding Srila Prabhupada's instructions tells a different story as to what the norm would be in addressing a woman in our society.  Overwhelmingly.

That was the only point I was making.

And of course I agree that it is best when we mean what we say.  Practice tends to make perfect when that is not already the case.

Hare Krsna!

[Bhakta Mark]

Interestingly enough, Pratyatosa das just pointed out that this whole issue began being discussed after the person named "SG" attempted to "correct" Pratyatosa das when he addressed someone on the other forum as "mother Rukmini Prabhu".

SG criticized that Prabhu was strictly meant for men and sarcastically said after 40 years "one would think" Pratyatosa das would have known that by now.

Not only was SG totally wrong, but incredibly offensive and out of the blue, as Pratyatosa das had said nothing previous to draw such a mean spirited response.

I have had run ins with this SG character before.  One time after clearly being unable to debate a point using reason, he started calling me all sorts of horrible things in anger.  

It seems that whatever insights he is capable of coming up with, he uses them as weapons.

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Mother Radha-Govinda Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Thank you very much for your extremely valuable contribution to this all-important discussion.

This is the way I remember it also. To address both men and women as "Prabhu" was the norm, I didn’t know it at the time, but this was obviously because Srila Prabhupada was trying to set the example for us.

This "the Matajis and the Prabhus" nonsense is a recent concoction due to extreme neophyte bodily consciousness due to certain ignorant pretender gurus telling their disciples, "My godbrothers are envious of me. Don’t listen to them." Thus, in ISKCON Denmark and ISKCON Sweden at least, where I have seen it firsthand, we have such offenses against women going on.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

One day, by the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Prabhupada, our Guru Varga, Hari Nam, and our endeavors in surrender, we will truly understand our position as servant of the servant... and the real meaning of "Mataji" and "Prabhu." "When oh when will that day be mine..."?

Your servant,  B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna

--- On Wed, 5/29/13, Bhakta Mark <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Bhakta Mark <markm...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Is it OK to address female devotees as "Prabhu?" To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP)]

Hare Krsna Pratyatosa prabhu, All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my fallen obeisances. I hope your sadhana and bhajan are going well. vidya vinaya sampane... panditah sama-darsinah (Bg 5.18) Most definitely [His Divine Grace] Srila Prabhupada was trying to teach us (trying to help us to raise our consciousness) through His example to eventually come to the sama-darsinah platform.  I only recall "Prabhu" being used in the 1960s and 1970s in reference to devotees. It was only after having returned from the M.E and African continent that I started hearing "Mataji" being used in relation to female devotees. (I feel it very endearing when someone calls me "Mataji" and truly!!! means it: It's the hypocrisy (throughout the movement in general, and on the part of various individuals) that bothers me; someone's using the word "Mother," or "Prabhu," their simply just "putting out a word" but in regards to their specific consciousness, having NO meaning behind it. In Oct 12, 1966, Srila Prabhupada spoke in His lecture, "A real devotee, he does not show any disrespect even to the ant, and what to speak of the demigods, because he is in knowledge that 'Every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. They're playing different parts only. So in relationship with the Supreme Lord they're all my respectables.' Therefore a devotee is taught to address all his contemporaries as 'Prabhu, my dear sir, my dear lord.' That is the position of  Krsna consciousness. They are not heartless. They are very submissive." I'm not "advocating" for either "Mataji" or "Prabhu," but am simply making the point that using the word "Prabhu" in relation to female-bodied devotees is not bogus, Srila Prabhupada Himself having used it, and taught it from the beginnings of His teaching us Krsna consciousness; thus, why even any argument? including some devotees going so far in having stated that it's "feminists" ['who want equal rights"] who want the word 'prabhu' to be used." Maybe there are some "feminists" who have this consciousness, but Krsna consciousness is not a matter of "feminists," politicians, "egoists," etc., but of those who are genuinely desireous of developing their understanding/realization of their relationship with Krsna, and, in accordance, are aspiring for development of Krsna Prema. Certainly in [proper] society there are the various requirements which will facilitate the environment for enabling our progress on the devotional path, and these must be accepted in consideration of the final goal. (The difficulty is that so many of us are not understanding these things in their proper perspective, with many of the people in so-called "leadership position" not having the understanding themselves and, besides their own personal misbehaviors, are preaching bogusly to their "underlings"; thus the resultant deviated situations...) You please be well. May we be safely situated under the shelter of Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Feet, Those of our Guru Varga, the Vaisnavas, and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. With love,

Your servant,  B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna

--- On Thu, 5/30/13, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Is it OK to address female devotees as "Prabhu?" To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Your servant,  B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna

[Pratyatosa]

Govinda Dasi: Mayesa Prabhu, you are making many arguments and analogies that dont really fit the conversation. I simply repeated what Srila Prabhupada said, that's all.

I have no arguments for or against it, I simply repeated his words, his instructions, to us at the time he accepted the name of Srila Prabhupada. He told us ALL, both male and female, to address one another as "prabhu" because we are the prabhus and he is the Prabhupada. And we are all surrendered at his lotus feet.

That was his explanation, his instruction, and most early devotees are very familiar with this. That is the reason they still address one another as "prabhu." We had never heard of all these complicated speculations until many years later. That's all.

(<https://www.facebook.com/basughoshdas/posts/10153665224648232>)

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 at 4:13:13 PM UTC-4, B. Radha-Govinda Swami (ACBSP) wrote:

Hare Krsna Pratyatosa prabhu,

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my fallen obeisances. I hope your sadhana and bhajan are going well. vidya vinaya sampane... panditah sama-darsinah (Bg 5.18) Most definitely [His Divine Grace] Srila Prabhupada was trying to teach us (trying to help us to raise our consciousness) through His example to eventually come to the sama-darsinah platform.  I only recall "Prabhu" being used in the 1960s and 1970s in reference to devotees. It was only after having returned from the M.E and African continent that I started hearing "Mataji" being used in relation to female devotees. (I feel it very endearing when someone calls me "Mataji" and truly!!! means it: It's the hypocrisy (throughout the movement in general, and on the part of various individuals) that bothers me; someone's using the word "Mother," or "Prabhu," their simply just "putting out a word" but in regards to their specific consciousness, having NO meaning behind it. In Oct 12, 1966, Srila Prabhupada spoke in His lecture, "A real devotee, he does not show any disrespect even to the ant, and what to speak of the demigods, because he is in knowledge that 'Every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. They're playing different parts only. So in relationship with the Supreme Lord they're all my respectables.' Therefore a devotee is taught to address all his contemporaries as 'Prabhu, my dear sir, my dear lord.' That is the position of  Krsna consciousness. They are not heartless. They are very submissive." I'm not "advocating" for either "Mataji" or "Prabhu," but am simply making the point that using the word "Prabhu" in relation to female-bodied devotees is not bogus, Srila Prabhupada Himself having used it, and taught it from the beginnings of His teaching us Krsna consciousness; thus, why even any argument? including some devotees going so far in having stated that it's "feminists" ['who want equal rights"] who want the word 'prabhu' to be used." Maybe there are some "feminists" who have this consciousness, but Krsna consciousness is not a matter of "feminists," politicians, "egoists," etc., but of those who are genuinely desireous of developing their understanding/realization of their relationship with Krsna, and, in accordance, are aspiring for development of Krsna Prema. Certainly in [proper] society there are the various requirements which will facilitate the environment for enabling our progress on the devotional path, and these must be accepted in consideration of the final goal. (The difficulty is that so many of us are not understanding these things in their proper perspective, with many of the people in so-called "leadership position" not having the understanding themselves and, besides their own personal misbehaviors, are preaching bogusly to their "underlings"; thus the resultant deviated situations...) You please be well. May we be safely situated under the shelter of Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Feet, Those of our Guru Varga, the Vaisnavas, and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. With love,  Your servant,  B. Radha-Govinda Hare Krsna

--- On Thu, 5/30/13, Pratyatosa wrote:

[Pratyatosa]

PRABHUPADA: "So long as there is Guru-Gauranga worship, YAMUNA PRABHU may act as pujari."

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Rsabhadeva — Bombay 25 March, 1971


PRABHUPADA: "I am glad to hear that you are determined to stay and live in the temple now and that you are becoming very much attached to the Deity worship and very serious about serving the Deity along with MALATI PRABHU."

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Gangamayi — Bombay 9 May, 1974


Srila Prabhupada would sometimes even address uninitiated women as "Prabhu":


PRABHUPADA: "Yes, I have all blessings for the happy marriage of Haladhara Prabhu and JOAN PRABHU, so you may immediately do the needful in this regards."

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Ranadhira — Gorakhpur 16 February, 1971


PRABHUPADA: "ANNA PRABHU may be initiated also and she has my blessings for being married to Puranda at the earliest convenience."

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Mukunda — Bombay 13 April, 1971

[Pratyatosa]

Maybe only white-skinned devotee women are to be addressed as "Prabhu!" Is there any evidence to the contrary?

[Pratyatosa]

Nice article by Mother Visakha. This should settle the controversy once and for all:

http://iskcon.us/visakha-dasi/women-prabhu/

Of course, even though the goof-ball GBC passed a resolution on the subject, and even though the resolution called upon the goof-ball SAC to research it, neither the SAC nor the GBC, after 3 long years, has even bothered to get back to us on it!:

From <http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GBCRES2014.htm>:

312: Should Women be Called “Prabhu”, “Mataji”, or “Devi”?

.

.

.

RESOLVED:

 

That the Sastric Advisory Committee is requested to research the evidence for women being called "Mataji", "Prabhu" or "Devi" and give a conclusive directive as to which of these terms should and should not be used by members of ISKCON.

[Pratyatosa]

Ajit Krishnadasa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsZWnLMgfA

Srila Prabhupada Addresses a Woman as "Prabhu"

youtube.com

 

Pratyatosa Das Great find, Ajit Krishnadasa Prabhu!. Srila Prabhupada addressing an Indian woman as "Prabhu." I didn't know that he ever did that. It's also in the VedaBase:

PRABHUPĀDA: …Prabhu, you understand English?

WOMAN: Yes.

PRABHUPĀDA: You stay with your son?

WOMAN: No. I am …[unclear].

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation — September 9, 1969, Hamburg

[Pratyatosa]

Jihadi Sri Prabhu is a male noun in sanskrit. ..it means lord .....it means master ..it is an address to God ....only God is prabhu........
 

Pratyatosa Das In the West, men and women are equal. Srila Prabhupada saw this in 1965, and was able to adjust, noting that this idea was the future for the whole world. It's India that has to change, not the other way around. Besides, in relation to Krishna, we are all female, so what's the difference?

[Pratyatosa]

My post linking to Mother Visakha Devi Dasi's article, "Everyone is my Prabhu", just now reached 100 likes/loves!:

https://www.facebook.com/pratyatosa/posts/10211492402562202

[Melanie L Nagel]

Pratyosa is a big rtvik, prone to being offensive, and husband of Urmilla, by the way! However,  we agree on a few things, and this happens to be one of them!

-- 
I will no longer be using my AOL account, please use: malati...@gmail.com effectively immediately. 

[Pratyatosa]

Dear esteemed member of the GBC body, Mother Malati Prabhu, PAMHO, AGTSP!

Thank you for your valuable comments. Glad to hear that "we agree on a few things."

One of ISKCON's biggest problems is that it's leaders have been bought by Indians who are more inclined to follow their own perverted culture than to follow Srila Prabhupada's pure teachings! Their refusal to address women as "Prabhu" is just one example of their insubordination.

IMHO, the GBC's unprecedented, illogical, concocted, bogus, voted-in guru system, like Obamacare, is self-destructing. But time will tell, right?

Srila Prabhupada, in 1977, had a difficult juggling act to perform. He had to fool the "I wanna be a guru like Prabhupada" madmen into thinking that they could get away with it so that they would continue to perform their highly conditional devotional service for just a little while longer, while, at the same time, making it perfectly clear, to anyone who is sane, that there is only one initiating guru allowed within ISKCON: Srila Prabhupada himself!

How much longer are these phony pretenders going to be able to get away with their charade?

Speaking of "charade," please note that these rascal leaders were not able to fool BBC documentary film-maker, Louis Theroux. At the beginning of the ISKCON segment, he played the song, "Charade," in the background, and at the end, he said, "I was beginning to wonder if treating someone as a living God, and hanging on their every word, might not serve the teacher, better than the disciple." (See: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxfa7AfDuvA>)

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 10:14 AM, 'Melanie L Nagel' via [the] Prabhupadanuga [public forum] wrote:

Pratyatosa is a big ritvik, prone to being offensive, and husband of Urmila, by the way! However, we agree on a few things, and this happens to be one of them!

[rainer hahn]

Dear Mother Malati Prabhu, PAMHO, AGTSP!

Wonder why you feel excluded when Prabhupada is saying in every lecture:

"To become spiritual master is not very difficult thing. You'll have to become spiritual master. You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. It is not difficult."
(London, August 22, 1973)

Is it you all, or,  you everyone?

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear esteemed member of the GBC body, Mother Malati Prabhu, PAMHO, AGTSP!

Thank you for your valuable comments. Glad to hear that "we agree on a few things."

One of ISKCON's biggest problems is that it's leaders have been bought by Indians, who are more inclined to follow their own perverted culture than to follow Srila Prabhupada's pure teachings! Their refusal to address women as "Prabhu" is just one example of their insubordination.

IMHO, the GBC's unprecedented, illogical, concocted, bogus, voted-in guru system, like Obamacare, is self-destructing. But time will tell, right?

Srila Prabhupada, in 1977, had a difficult juggling act to perform. He had to fool the "I wanna be a guru like Prabhupada" madmen into thinking that they could get away with it so that they would continue to perform their highly conditional devotional service for just a little while longer, while, at the same time, making it perfectly clear, to anyone who is sane, that there is only one initiating guru allowed within ISKCON: Srila Prabhupada himself!

How much longer are these phony pretenders going to be able to get away with their charade?

Speaking of "charade," please note that these rascal leaders were not able to fool BBC documentary film-maker, Louis Theroux. At the beginning of the ISKCON segment, he played the song, "Charade" in the background, and at the end, he said, "I was beginning to wonder if treating someone as a living God, and hanging on their every word, might not serve the teacher, better than the disciple." (See: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxfa7AfDuvA>)

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 10:14 AM, 'Melanie L Nagel' via Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Pratyatosa is a big ritvik, prone to being offensive, and husband of Urmila, by the way! However, we agree on a few things, and this happens to be one of them!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi.

[Pratyatosa]

They've now had almost 4 years! Where is the SAC report? Where is the GBC follow-up resolution? Could the GBC and SAC be thinking, "The Hare Krishna devotees don't respect anything that we say anyway, so why bother?"

[Pratyatosa]

A video by a confused Sivarama Swami (<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIQTpiRBrSU>) is currently being advertised on Facebook. (<https://www.facebook.com/prithu.das.54/posts/10155839230519262>) I remember when ISKCON sannyasis were offended if you addressed them as "Prabhu!" ("I'm not a 'Prabhu!' I'm a 'Maharaja!'") But then I later noticed, in Indian devotional movies, that Lord Krishna Himself is addressed as "Prabhu." Therefore, it seems silly for ISKCON sannyasis to be offended when being addressed the same way as Krishna (God), doesn't it? Are they still offended in that way? Obviously, the ISKCON sannyasis didn't (don't?) understand what the word, "prabhu," means!

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 11:57:22 PM UTC-5, Pratyatosa wrote:

They've now had almost 4 years! Where is the SAC report? Where is the GBC follow-up resolution? Could the GBC and SAC be thinking, "The Hare Krishna devotees don't respect anything that we say anyway, so why bother?"

[rainer hahn]

Prabhu, mataji — according  to this statement by Prabhupada this is used when we do not know this Vaishnavi. Prabhupada: "That is the system still in India, any unknown woman who has no introduction with you, she is addressed "Mātājī." "  (Los Angeles, January 7, 1974)

So there is no point addressing a Vaishnavi in our congregation as prabhu or mataji,  she is addressed with her spiritual name without any polite form of address. Just like when you say, "Malati, could you please explain these new devotees how to chant on beads." 

[Pratyatosa]

No. It would be better Vaishnava etiquette to say, "Mother Malati Prabhu, could you please explain to these new devotees how to chant on beads."

When I first went to Denmark in 1996, I thought that it was hilarious that there were "the Matajis and the Prabhus!" Being from the US, where the Hare Krishna Movement began, I'd never heard of such a thing before! But since Sivarama Swami joined ISKCON in Europe, he thinks that addressing women as "Prabhu" is something new! No. Having "the Matajis and the Prabhus!" is actually the new concoction, apparently unique to Europe!

[Pratyatosa]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:30 AM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I first went to Denmark in 1996, I thought that it was hilarious that there were "the Matajis and the Prabhus!" Being from the US, where the Hare Krishna Movement began, I'd never heard of such a thing before! But since Sivarama Swami joined ISKCON in Europe, he thinks that addressing women as "Prabhu" is something new! No. Having "the Matajis and the Prabhus!" is actually the new concoction, apparently unique to Europe!

I posted the above as a comment on <https://www.facebook.com/prithu.das.54/posts/10155839230519262>, but the (in?)famous ex-GBC man from Europe, Prithu Das, deleted it!

He also deleted:

Malati Devi Dasi (GBC - one of Srila Prabhupada's earliest disciples): "Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily identifications in favor of principal. He taught us to address one another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as "Prabhu" in order to teach the correct mood, "not that we become 'master,' but that we see all others as 'master.'"

And:

Also, where is the proof that Srila Prabhupada said "Mr. Dwarkadish?" (The imperfect memories of some former "drug-addicted hippie," who permanently damaged his brain by swallowing lots of LSD, doesn't count.)

The only one of my comments that he hasn't deleted (so far) is this one:

https://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Srila_Prabhupada_addressing_his_female_disciples_as_%22Prabhu%22

Let's see how long it takes him to delete my latest comment:

If there is such a thing as "the prabhus and the matajis" or "the matajis and the prabhus," like they have at ISKCON temples in Europe, then why is nether phrase in the VedaBase even once? Obviously, it's a concoction!

Why doesn't he simply unfriend me?

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Pratyatosa]

From Govinda Dasi:

On the day that Srila Prabhupada accepted the title “ Srila Prabhupada”, no longer to be called Swamiji, in 1968, May 1968, he told us all, boys and girls, to call one another “Prabhu” as a respectful form of address to one another.

And the meaning he gave us at that time was that “you are all the prabhus, who have taken shelter of the Prabhupada”.

So to call one another Prabhu is in relation to him, as Srila Prabhupada. That is why, in the early days of our movement, while we were all around Srila Prabhupada, all of us addressed one another as prabhu, it did not matter whether male or female.

This “mataji” thing came much later. It was created or endorsed by the male disciples, mostly agitated young men, who sought to deal with the agitation by addressing all their beautiful godsisters as “mother.” Who knows, maybe it helped them.

Once a male devotee addressed Yamuna devi dasi as Mataji, and she responded by saying, “Yes, Father such and such.”That was amusing.

The point is: Srila Prabhupada did NOT see it as a gender thing. Or an Indian cultural gender thing. He carefully explained to us that this is directly in relation to him—we are all the prabhus, masters, who have taken shelter at the lotus feet of the Prabhupada, the great master.

On Friday, April 20, 2018 at 12:41:34 PM UTC-4, Pratyatosa wrote:

[Joseph Langevin]

Other interesting statements by Srila Prabhupada.

ys Ynd

Sp re Addressing women as mother

 

Srila Prabhupāda: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravāt para-dareṣu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to live... Therefore, the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother." That is the etiquette.

Brahmānanda: You say like "Mother Rukmiṇī"? There's a devotee named Rukmiṇī. You say, "Mother Rukmiṇī"? How do you address a woman? Do you say, "Mother," and then the name of the devotee?

Srila Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply.

Brahmānanda: Just "Mother."

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train.

Indian man (4): In our Indian culture, they don't call the name of the mother never, children don't.

Srila Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe.

Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use "ji." "Matāji", "Pitaji," "Brataji," "Bahinji."

Srila Prabhupāda: Or... And the woman says, "Beta."(?) That's all right.

Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we're accustomed to not like our mothers.

Srila Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (5): In the West, we don't like our mothers.

Srila Prabhupāda: So, you should forget your West or East. [break]

 

Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, Nairobi, Kenya  -  November 2, 1975

Sp re Addressing women as mother

 

Srila Prabhupāda: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravāt para-dareṣu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to live... Therefore, the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother." That is the etiquette.

Brahmānanda: You say like "Mother Rukmiṇī"? There's a devotee named Rukmiṇī. You say, "Mother Rukmiṇī"? How do you address a woman? Do you say, "Mother," and then the name of the devotee?

Srila Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply.

Brahmānanda: Just "Mother."

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train.

Indian man (4): In our Indian culture, they don't call the name of the mother never, children don't.

Srila Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe.

Indian woman: We got a very sweet sound. Everything we use "ji." "Matāji", "Pitaji," "Brataji," "Bahinji."

Srila Prabhupāda: Or... And the woman says, "Beta."(?) That's all right.

Devotee (5): The only trouble is in the West we're accustomed to not like our mothers.

Srila Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (5): In the West, we don't like our mothers.

Srila Prabhupāda: So, you should forget your West or East. [break]  Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, Nairobi, Kenya  -  November 2, 1975

 

This question was raised by Parīkṣit Mahārāja when Śukadeva Gosvāmī described the rāsa-līlā. So that... "Kṛṣṇa appeared on this material world, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām [Bg. 4.8], dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. So why He violated these rules of dharma?" Violation because, according to Vedic civilization, nobody can mix with other's wife or other woman. Even in moral principle, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. "All women should be treated just like mother." Not like the present society. Formerly, every woman should be addressed as "mother," Mātājī. And now they have invented "Bahinjī." No. Woman should be addressed as "mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. …

Prabhupāda: Hm. So that's all right. But not this body. With their spiritual body. Yes.

Brahmānanda: In your lecture you quoted Cāṇakya Paṇḍita that a man must see every woman other than his own wife as mother. How should a woman see other men?

Prabhupāda: As son. (laughter)

Brahmānanda: That was my idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If I see woman as mother, she must see me as son. That's all. That is the system. The brahmacārī, the sannyāsī go to beg alms from door to door. "Mother, give me some bhikṣā, alms." And it is the duty of the gṛhastha to treat brahmacārī and sannyāsī as their son. As they maintain their children with food, shelter, cloth, similarly the brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs, they are dependent on the society. They should be treated as the sons of the society. And they must supply their necessities, bare necessities. A sannyāsī, brahmacārī, does not want more than what they need. They should not collect more than what they need. Bhikṣā nirvāhana. Not collect more and enjoy at others' cost. No. That is not the business of sannyāsī. They can collect so much as they need. That's all.

Devotee: When you address a woman, do you...

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: When you address a woman do you use the word "Mātājī"? Is that the right, proper word for her?

Prabhupāda: Mātājī. Yes, very good. "Mother." All right. Chant. (end)  Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/bg/4/14/vrndavana/august/06/1974

 

 

So senses are so strong. Balavān indriya-grāmaḥ. It is prohibited. What to speak of others. Therefore, the common moral teachings and the Vedic civilization is to accept any woman except his own wife as mother. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Para-dāreṣu. Everyone is supposed to be married. Dāra means wife. Para-dāreṣu, other's wife. It doesn't matter if she is younger or older, but she should be treated as mother. Therefore, it is the system in Vedic culture, as soon as one sees another woman, she (he) addresses her, "mother," Mātājī. Immediately, "mother." That makes the relationship. The woman treats the unknown man as son, and the unknown man treats the unknown woman as mother. This is Vedic civilization. So we should be very careful. In our society, you are all Godbrothers, Godsisters. Or those who are married, they are like mothers. So you should be very careful. Then you will remain dhīra, sober. That is brahminical qualification, brahminical culture. Not that "Because I have got facilities to intermingle with nice girls, so I shall take advantage and exploit them." Or the girls should take... No. Therefore, our restriction: no illicit sex. Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/sb/1/3/13/los_angeles/september/18/1972

his question was raised by Parīkṣit Mahārāja when Śukadeva Gosvāmī described the rāsa-līlā. So that... "Kṛṣṇa appeared on this material world, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām [Bg. 4.8], dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. So why He violated these rules of dharma?" Violation because, according to Vedic civilization, nobody can mix with other's wife or other woman. Even in moral principle, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. "All women should be treated just like mother." Not like the present society. Formerly, every woman should be addressed as "mother," Mātājī. And now they have invented "Bahinjī." No. Woman should be addressed as "mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu.

Prabhupāda: Hm. So that's all right. But not this body. With their spiritual body. Yes.

Brahmānanda: In your lecture you quoted Cāṇak

This question was raised by Parīkṣit Mahārāja when Śukadeva Gosvāmī described the rāsa-līlā. So that... "Kṛṣṇa appeared on this material world, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām [Bg. 4.8], dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. So why He violated these rules of dharma?" Violation because, according to Vedic civilization, nobody can mix with other's wife or other woman. Even in moral principle, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. "All women should be treated just like mother." Not like the present society. Formerly, every woman should be addressed as "mother," Mātājī. And now they have invented "Bahinjī." No. Woman should be addressed as "mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu.

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:56 AMya Paṇḍita that a man must see every woman other than his own wife as mother. How should a woman see other men?

Prabhupāda: As son. (laughter)

Brahmānanda: That was my idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If I see woman as mother, she must see me as son. That's all. That is the system. The brahmacārī, the sannyāsī go to beg alms from door to door. "Mother, give me some bhikṣā, alms." And it is the duty of the gṛhastha to treat brahmacārī and sannyāsī as their son. As they maintain their children with food, shelter, cloth, similarly the brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs, they are dependent on the society. They should be treated as the sons of the society. And they must supply their necessities, bare necessities. A sannyāsī, brahmacārī, does not want more than what they need. They should not collect more than what they need. Bhikṣā nirvāhana. Not collect more and enjoy at others' cost. No. That is not the business of sannyāsī. They can collect so much as they need. That's all.

Devotee: When you address a woman, do you...

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: When you address a woman do you use the word "Mātājī"? Is that the right, proper word for her?

Prabhupāda: Mātājī. Yes, very good. "Mother." All right. Chant. (end)

Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/bg/4/14/vrndavana/august/06/1974

---

From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:56 AM

Subject: Re: Is it OK to address female devotees as "Prabhu?"

From Govinda Dasi:

On the day that Srila Prabhupada accepted the title “ Srila Prabhupada”, no longer to be called Swamiji, in 1968, May 1968, he told us all, boys and girls, to call one another “Prabhu” as a respectful form of address to one another.

And the meaning he gave us at that time was that “you are all the prabhus, who have taken shelter of the Prabhupada”.

So to call one another Prabhu is in relation to him, as Srila Prabhupada. That is why, in the early days of our movement, while we were all around Srila Prabhupada, all of us addressed one another as prabhu, it did not matter whether male or female.

This “mataji” thing came much later. It was created or endorsed by the male disciples, mostly agitated young men, who sought to deal with the agitation by addressing all their beautiful godsisters as “mother.” Who knows, maybe it helped them.

Once a male devotee addressed Yamuna devi dasi as Mataji, and she responded by saying, “Yes, Father such and such.”That was amusing.

The point is: Srila Prabhupada did NOT see it as a gender thing. Or an Indian cultural gender thing. He carefully explained to us that this is directly in relation to him—we are all the prabhus, masters, who have taken shelter at the lotus feet of the Prabhupada, the great master.

On Friday, April 20, 2018 at 12:41:34 PM UTC-4, Pratyatosa wrote:

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:30 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:

When I first went to Denmark in 1996, I thought that it was hilarious that there were "the Matajis and the Prabhus!" Being from the US, where the Hare Krishna Movement began, I'd never heard of such a thing before! But since Sivarama Swami joined ISKCON in Europe, he thinks that addressing women as "Prabhu" is something new! No. Having "the Matajis and the Prabhus!" is actually the new concoction, apparently unique to Europe!

I posted the above as a comment on <https://www.facebook.com/ prithu.das.54/posts/ 10155839230519262>, but the (in?)famous ex-GBC man from Europe, Prithu Das, deleted it!

He also deleted:

Malati Devi Dasi (GBC - one of Srila Prabhupada's earliest disciples): "Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily identifications in favor of principal. He taught us to address one another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as "Prabhu" in order to teach the correct mood, "not that we become 'master,' but that we see all others as 'master.'"

And:

Also, where is the proof that Srila Prabhupada said "Mr. Dwarkadish?" (The imperfect memories of some former "drug-addicted hippie," who permanently damaged his brain by swallowing lots of LSD, doesn't count.)

The only one of my comments that he hasn't deleted (so far) is this one:

https://vaniquotes.org/wiki/ Srila_Prabhupada_addressing_ his_female_disciples_as_% 22Prabhu%22

Let's see how long it takes him to delete my latest comment:

If there is such a thing as "the prabhus and the matajis" or "the matajis and the prabhus," like they have at ISKCON temples in Europe, then why is nether phrase in the VedaBase even once? Obviously, it's a concoction!

Why doesn't he simply unfriend me?

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.