"Mayapura: Not Very Safe For Devotees?"

[Pratyatosa]

Sunday, September 8, 2013: http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/09/mayapura-not-very-safe-for-devotees.html#comment-form

What do you expect? Criminal "gurus" attract criminal "disciples."

[Pratyatosa]

Posted just now: Sadhu Das Recovering From Knife Attack

[rammohan das]

Ravanari pr, a godbrother moved 2009 from Canada to Mayapur. In Canada he would receive basic state pension, minimum collateral, accommodation allowance, luncheon voucher, compulsory health insurance. In Mayapur they cut it down to 250 dollars per month. He wrote that  for Mayapur this is still enough to live there but what why he took flight in panic only one year later was that they set up a toll gate everywhere. You have to pay that your shoes are still there after class, that your laundry isn't stolen from washing line, temple safe fee so that your documents are still there, etc., etc. the whole temple complex is full of people who constantly want your money. He said at one point this drives you mad, you cant walk one inch without having someone close at your heels who wants money. You can't live there peacefully.
Now when reading  "Sadhu Das Recovering From Knife Attack" this is all about folks who are not Vaishnava. And they want to build a new city with these type of people? How this should work?

[Nori Muster]

The ISKCON land in Mayapur has always been dangerous, from what I remember.

I have often thought that as white, middle class Americans, we have no idea what it means to grow up Hindu in a developing country. 

ISKCON used its unlimited wealth to buy a big parcel of land the middle of the holy land, then occupied it with stupid, white American kids, who dressed up like devotees of Lord Chaitanya, but acted thoughtlessly and did not fit in. (For the most part, because there were some good people involved, no doubt.)

With that history, and bad management over many years, it only makes sense that the ISKCON property is overrun with criminals. 

Maybe ISKCON Mayapur is reaping the karma it sowed.

Nori

On Sep 10, 2013, at 6:34 PM, Pratyatosa wrote:

Sunday, September 8, 2013: http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/09/mayapura-not-very-safe-for-devotees.html#comment-form

What do you expect? Criminal "gurus" attract criminal "disciples."

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[Pratyatosa]

Good points Mother Nori Prabhu.

The ISKCON "gurus" became a band of criminals in early 1978 when they claimed to have been appointed as such by Srila Prabhupada. They staged an illegal takeover of ISKCON through the agency of lies, the hiding and destroying of documents, the hiding and destroying of audio recordings, and the banning, beating, and even murdering of those godbrothers/sisters who dared to protest the takeover.

Why would anyone except a self-motivated fool want to join up with this loser's club of criminals, and thus become a criminal/loser himself by association?

BTW, yesterday, Puranjana Prabhu wrote/published an extensive treatise documenting the ISKCON Mayapur situation:

Is Jayapataka's Mayapura "A Spiritual City," or "A Material Residence for Thugs and Gangsters"?

[Nori Muster]

Thank you, I will check out what Puranjana wrote.

I went to the Mayapur festival in 1982 and was stepped while sleeping on the floor of the women's ashrama.

Yeah, they had us packed in like sardines!

Anyways, when the woman stepped on my chest I had the most wonderful out of body experience. I was sitting in a flower hearing someone scream. I looked down and it was me! The flower stem connected to my navel. I thought, "Oh no, what if I can't get back in?!" Then the lights went on, the screaming stopped, and I woke up inside my body.

Other women gathered around me, worried. Luckily, I was okay. My sternum and a few ribs were broken, but no ribs in the lungs, or anything like that. It was the first night of two weeks in India, followed by three weeks in Italy. By the time I got back to L.A. I was okay. 

Maybe that is why I remember Mayapur as being scary.

Another interesting dimple from that trip: I was among those who lined the road to witness Jayatirtha walk off the property and join a Gaudiya Math group (Narayan Maharaja?? can't recall).

Following his dramatic departure, all the other gurus piled into vehicles and sped off to the airport to nail down JT's disciples and temples in England.

[rammohan das]

@"Following his dramatic departure, all the other gurus piled into vehicles and sped off to the airport to nail down JT's disciples and temples in England."


This is an interesting aspect, Nori.
If JT was about to leave ISKCON and other ISKCON gurus were already rushing to England in order to get their hands on anything of JT's zone, then this explains more clear why later on aggression against JT escalated into beheading.
People always wondered why JT became target of such reputation-damaging barbarism? I mean reputation-damaging for Prabhupada's movement.
Of course official version of JT's devious step sounds quite plausible, but was this real cause to cut off his head?
If ISKCON leaders additionally told JT's disciples (incitement of the people) that JT joined GM, leaves ISKCON,  then this could have been the feather that brakes the balance. In other words, real cause of JT's death was rather instigation to commit murder. Similar situation like Sulochan pr who was killed by hit man Tirtha (Thomas Drescher).

[Nori Muster]

When JT left the Mayapur property in 1982, he stayed with the Gaudiya Math for a while, then went back to England to gather what was left of his disciples.

Meanwhile, the remaining nine gurus (Hansadutta was already gone) decided that Bhagavan would take over JT's zone. It was only a matter of minutes after JT left, they all took off in the cars and busses for the airport. Maybe they just wanted to get out of there, I dunno. By the time Bhagavan and Ramesvara arrived, JT had already contacted his the disciples by telephone, and asked them to resist. People barred themselves in their rooms and would not come out. 

Others went along with Bhagavan and Ramesvara.

JT reinitiated the people who wanted to follow him and gave them Biblical names. Some used their Vedic and Biblical names. 

In JT's new group, rituals involved taking LSD and having kirtan. In these kirtans, JT would swoon and cry, and go into ecstasies. This went on for years. During that time, Hamsadutta was trying to get back into ISKCON, and there were a few attempts to get JT back in. 

Somewhere along the way, JT got a job at a Knobs and Knockers hardware store in England. I guess they all had jobs.

One of his disciples went insane from the LSD and thought JT was the antichrist (or whatever he thought). In1987, he confronted JT at the Knobs and Knockers after hours and stabbed him to death. Then cut his head off. When the police showed up, they found the disciple laughing hysterically with JT's head in his lap.

The murderer was sentenced to life in a mental hospital.

I was shocked and sad when I heard about it, and had to be the one to tell Mukunda Goswami. MG and JT were close friends, so it was a difficult thing to do. JT had his problems, and is suspected as one of the conspirators who murdered Srila Prabhupada, but I didn't know about all that when I was a member. I remember JT as one of the nicer of the eleven gurus. 

A humorous note: I just read the death section of JT's Wikipedia article. It doesn't mention that he was decapitated, but it does mention that Mukunda nixed the obituary in ISKCON World Review! I remember he was against a full scale obituary, so ultimately we ran a short notice that did not say much about how or why he died. I remember the whole episode like it was yesterday. Very sad.

[Nori Muster]

The circumstances around Sulochan's death were quite different from JT.

In that situation, the gurus conspired to kill a whistleblower.

It was not just Kirtanananda, other gurus were on board as well.

On Sep 12, 2013, at 11:51 AM, rammohan das wrote:

[jbea...@gmail.com]

Regarding JT's murder.    

The way I heard it was that previously JT had married the man who killed him to another of his disicples.  But, at some point JT decided to have an affair with the girl.  He told the man that the girl was one of his consorts.  After some time she became pregnant and JT was then 'done with her'.  He sent her back to the man and told him that it was now his duty to raise JT's child.   JT was so messed up he thought it was the greatest blessings he could give them, his own child...   

I was told that the young man couldn't take it    and that's what led him to behead JT.    

I don't recall who told me this,   was long time ago,  I was living in Detroit at the time, JT's zone.   

Prior to this, on JT's last trip to Det an incident occurred.   First, for perspective, JT was Temple President in LA when I joined.  I really liked him.   I tell devotees,  in a genuine loving way,  that he was a very wonder devotee, but, he lost his head over LSD.     He was always nice to me.  And his wive Manjuwali  - they were very devoteed at that time, 73-74.   

Anyway, prior to his last visit to Det a devotee, Brajendralal, got a phone call from a devotee friend in England who informed him that JT was taking LSD and was having affair with a mataji - Sucarya.  Brajendralal reported this to Naveen Krsna who was the zonal GBC secretary in Detroit.   This was a major fall down.   When JT arrived some days later Naveen confronted him on it.  A meeting was called for all of SP's disciples, to met with JT -  The meeting was held in SP's room - Maybe you were there Pratyatosh?  If you were, I am sure you'll remember what took place.    

SP's murti is there in the room,   and the question was put to JT - was he taking LSD?  Was he engaged in illicit affair?    Jayatirtha went before SP's murti, and before him he said,  "I swear to you before my spiritual master, on Srila Prabhupad's name, I swear to you this is not true.  These are horrible lies meant as an attack on me and the GBC and Gurus of ISKCON".   

He seemed so damn sincere.  He swore to us on Prabhupad's name, before SP's murti that all of this was a vicious lie.  Then he turned on Brajendralal, who was a sweet non-political devotee, he has passed away now, his wife is now TP of Alachua,  ah - her name is on the tip of my tongue, starts with an M   ahh,  anyway...  (really it's not old age,  i've always been horrible with ah,   ah,   what do you call it,   ah,   oh    names, yeah, names...   now what was i saying...   oh yeah, its' not old age...  )   anyway,   he turned on Brajendralal and said,  "Why are you spreading such vicious lies about me? How could you do this?"   and we all turned and looked at Brajendralal and thought,  'yeah, how could you do this to poor innocent JT?"       Brajendralal was banned from coming to the temple   - but it only lasted a month or 2,   because eventually JT got caught and the whole GBC found out the rumors were true.  Braj was apologized to.    

Why did JT go to Sridhar?    

First,  most of the GBC had been meeting regularly with Sridhar since SP left.  They went to him for formal GBC managerial advice, and personal advice and association.  When JT was found having broken the principles the GBC tried to rectify him, but he was too far gone.  He didn't listen to them.   So, they asked him to seek Sridhar's help.  The GBC sent him to Sridhar.   

I've did some background study on this for a presentation i will be making soon.  The GBC had been meeting with Sridhar regularly, but, they were keeping it secret.  Only the GBC and a few sannyasis were to know about it.  Why?   Why keep it secret from the rank and file members that they were meeting with Sridhar?    I'll get to that in a second.   First of all,    WHY were they meeting with him and taking his advice in the first place?  

According to Tamal, a few days before SP's departure he told Tamal that after he departs that the GBC can consult Narayan M on how to perform the Samadhi and last rites, as SP knew his disciples wouldn't know, and he knew that Narayan M had experience and knew how to handle this.  SP suggested Narayan because he said Narayan was near by,  having an ashram in Matthura.    Tamal supposedly asked if there was any one else they could consult with, and SP said of his Godbrother's Srdhar was the most knowledgeable, philosophically, that if the GBC had some questions on the philosophy they could seek Sridhar's advice.

The reason they went to Sridhar concerning the guru issue was simple.   The GBC were convinced that SP wanted the 11 Rtvik-Representtatives to become regular gurus when he left.  But, after SP left they found themselves totally in the dark on how to set up such a multi guru system.  SP had Not given them ONE Single instruction -  ZERO - Nothing, on how to set up such a system.  Were the gurus to have their own Vyasasans, or should they remove Prabhupad's paintings and murtis and sit in his?  Should all the temples have all the photos of all the gurus on their altars all the time, or only photo of the local or visiting gurus?  Are Gurus to be Authorities over the GBC,  or was the GBC still to have authority over the Gurus?  Jayapataka asked,   how can a Non-Guru GBC member give instructions to a Guru-GBC member?   The point was that since [which he actually did NOT] SP appointed those men to be Acarya, then obviously SP considered those 11 men to be MORE Advanced then the rest of the non-guru GBC.  So, how can a less advanced devotee give instructions to the most advanced devotees?     They found that they had a million questions,  and SP had given them one single instruction, not a word or a vague hint     How in the hell was the whole damn things supposed to be set up and how was it to work?   The GBC found themselves totally in the dark.  

During a meeting when none of the gurus or GBC could agree on how to even take step one,  how to proceed,   Tamal mentioned that they can seek Sridhar's advice.  So, from that day on for years the GBC secretly began holding meetings with Sridhar seeking his advice, starting with how to set up this Multi-Guru system.   

But, why keep it secret from the rank and file members that they were meeting with Sridhar?    

The reason was,  and this I found on a Caitanya Sarasvati Math website, they have transcripts and mpg3 recordings - Bhatka Caru in 83 or so explained the situation to Sridhar - he told Sridhar why the GBC had turned on him - which i'll get to shortly.  But, what Bhaka Charu told him was that the GBC claims that SP had appointed the 11 to be Acaryas after he departed.  So, they were to be the new Gurus of ISKCON.  The new Acaryas.  The new Masters and Guides of the movement.  How would it look if everyone were to find out that the new ISKCON gurus were going to a more senior Vaishnav for their own Guidance?    Why would a new ISKCON devotee agree to accept one of them as their Guru and Master, if the new member finds out that the ISKCON gurus are themselves taking guidance from a more senior Guru?   The fear was that the new members would abandon ISKCON and all go to Sridhar.   He was the new Guide of the new Gurus. Why settle with the lessor new gurus,  better to take direct shelter of the senior guru.   The fear was that if everyone found out that the GBC were going to Sridhar,  it could lead to a major conflict, which could lead to the total collapse of ISKCON.   

But, when did they turn on Sridhar and why?

That was because of Jayatirtha.... well, sort of.    JT wasn't taking the GBC's help, so they sent him to Sridhar.  JT was now back living with his wife, Manjuwali and went to see Sridhar with his wife.   Sridhar preached to him,  and genuinely helped him. He convinced him that his fall down caused SP a great pain, and that he must become strong again and reconfirm his faith in SP.    Soon, Jayatirtha regained his senses, and re-renounced taking intoxications and illicit sex.   Sridhar also convinced him that since he had already taken sannyas and was in the position of a Guru,   he must re-affirm his Sannyas vows.  Jayatirtha agreed, and was well on the road to reforming himself.   He came back and the GBC again reinstated his guru position -     but,   then JT did the unthinkable.   He broke the code of silence regarding Sridhar.    Jayatirtha felt totally indebted to Sridhar for helping save his spiritual life and regain his faith in Srila Prabhupad.   Out of appreciation for this, Jayatirtha informed his disciples that it was Sridhar who had helped him regain his senses.    He then asked his disciples to also place Srihdar's photo next to his and also offer Sridhar respects, for having saved JT.    

The GBC was totally bent.   What was JT doing?   No one was supposed to know about Sridhar.  Especially the Grand Disciples and new members.  So, they told JT to STOP this IMMEDIATELY.  To tell his disciples to Take Sridhar's photos Off the altars,  and STOP telling everyone that the GBC was taking guidance from Sridhar.      Jayatirtha REFUSED.

Some time went on and the GBC was fuming over this.    At the 1982 GBC meetings they gave JT a final last ultimatum.   The GBC considered this SERIOUS.  It could threaten the whole future of ISKCON - if new members learned that the gurus were all taking guidance from Sridhar,   all the new devotees would leave ISKCON and accept Sridhar as their guru.  So, they GBC felt that had to take drastic measures to STOP JT.    They gave him the ultimatum,  they told him he must REMOVE Sridhar from his heart.   And tell his disciples to remove his photos from the altars.   If JT again refused, then the GBC would enact their most severe punishment, they would EXPEL JT from ISKCON.    The GBC members took a gamble.  They thought for sure JT would do anything to keep from being Expelled.    They thought this would surely force him to comply.    Instead, JT stood up, and told the GBC what they were asking him to do was offensive,   He could never remove Sridhar from his heart.  He walked out the door and walked out of the Mayapur Candrodaya property straight to Sridhar's ashram.       

Not only did the GBC scramble to try and reach his disciples first to convince them to stay... .   but, they felt that now that the cat was out of bag, so to speak, that a lot of devotees were hearing that the GBC had been meeting with Sridhar and taking his guidance,    that this was Serious,   they had to "Something"    What they chose to do was very offensive.  Some of these same men had just met with Sridhar a few days earlier and were glorifying him.  Ramesvar told Sridhar that hearing from him was the same as hearing from SP.   They had just met with him,  and they were all glorifying him.   But, suddenly they felt he was now a major threat.    So, they began telling devotees that JT's leaving was all Sridhar's fault.  That Sridhar was just another of SP's envious God brothers   That Sridhar had STOLEN JT away from ISKCON and SP.    

They turned,  like snakes, against the same man that just days before they were privately glorifying him as being As Good As Srila Prabhupad.   

Imagine.   They could turn so vile against someone whom they considered AS Good AS Prabhupad?      They committed a grave offense.   

Sridhar may not have been without faults,  but, he certainly wasn't the envious snake  the GBC were now telling everyone he was.         The GBC just wanted to STOP devotees in general from going over to him, and leaving ISKCON.   

Sridhar was deeply hurt by this.  He cried over it,   'Why Srila Prabhupad's leading disciples had turned so viciously against him?'         What sort of leaders was this?  He told devotees that ISKCON was doomed.   With GBC leaders like this,  the future of Prabhupad's mission was doomed.  (Some devotee told me that he was in the room when Sridhar made those comments, but he thought Sridhar was actually cursing - that he was upset because the GBC stopped taking his advice and that because of that he cursed SP's mission to fail   But from my research that isn't what he said. He was hurt because the GBC turned so vile against him.  They were glorifying him one day, and the next spreading untrue lies about him.   

So, Bhakta Charu had gone to Sridhar in around 83 or 84 and told him why the GBC had turned on him,   and that is where I got most of this info.  Sridhar's disciples had recorded the meeting and they have transcripts and mp3 files of it.   Plus other writings of his followers, and other sources.    

After JT left ISKCON    he tried to help Sridhar spread his Sri Caitanya Sarasvati Math organization, but, yes, JT fell back into his LSD world and illicit sexlife.   And, yes, he got into a bit of a cultish mentality.      But, before he was guru, when SP was still with us,  he was a nice devotee.  I enjoyed his association and learned a lot as he shared many stories with me about his association with SP.      It was a painfully dark day when i found out that he had lied to us,   on SP's name, before his murti   when he proclaimed that he was innocent.    When i found out that he had lied,  it hurt because i really liked him as a God brother.     When I joined as a new bhakta he gave me good association.  I miss those days.   

What drove these men mad was they were committing so many offenses to SP.    Personally,  i would never accept any idea that JT was compliant in poisoning SP -   I don't think that we will ever know in this world what really happened and who was involved.   The only way I can imagine that any one other than 1 or 2 core people could have been involved would be if Tamal had convinced some that SP had asked for 'something' to help him leave sooner.   Then maybe there was some compliance, if they thought they were doing what SP wanted.   But, this is all speculative.   I don't want to speculate on such an all important issue.    

SP left this world according to Krishna's desire,   thats all.    He wasn't poisoned before it Krsna wanted him to leave.    

[jbea...@gmail.com]

Hari Bolo

Another comment

I have a question regarding Mayapur.   

Just recently a devotee, Guru Gauranga, who is Bhakta Charu disciple, just told me something I've never heard before.    I was speaking with him and he brought up the Mayapur Temple project.   That's a sore point for me.  Back in 1974 when Bharadraj returned back from India with the mission to set up the Doll museum project he shared with us the instructions that SP gave him regarding the Temple of Understanding.   That name, Temple of Understanding - Bharadraj told us was the name SP used.  Before Harikesh left ISKCON he convinced the GBC to change the name, based on one time that SP used the other name.  But, in unrecorded conversations he most often called it Tample of Understanding.  

Anyway, I mentioned to Guru Gauranga how I was disappointed because from 1974 when Bharadraj shared with us SP's instructions,  SP wanted that the doll making devotees build an elaborate museum project there.   So, since 1974 I had longed to work on the project.  I had taken up that this would be my service - someday.   Back in 1980's Jayapataka promised me that as soon as they get the money and start on the work,   he would send for me,  that he would have me head up the museum project.  So, I longed for that day.  I looked forward to it.   Even in 1993 he told me the same thing, promising that he would have me head up the musuem once they started work.    But, by 1997 things changed.  He stopped talking to me when i would see him.    And, when work did start, Hari Sauri was put in charge of the museum.   So, I ran into him at the Pani Hati festival some years back, and he asked me to join him    - that together we would head up the museum designs and project.   I had my differences with the GBC.   By then I supported the Rtvik Representative of the Acarya system,  and he knew that,   but,   we were old friends.    Despite our differences on that issue, I love to talk with him about SP.   So, Jayapataka was there in Atlanta also.   Hari Sauri asked me to speak with Jayapataka and get his permission first, since the overall project was under his direction.   So, I tried.   I saw him coming out of the temple side door later that day, he was only with his (female) secretary and so I approached him.  From 20 foot away he gave a forced smile and folded his hands and gave a Hari Bol,   but when i walked toward him he looked nervous.  I asked if we could speak.  He looked around, looked up at the sky, anything, but look me in the eye.  He totally snubbed me and started walking past me like i wasn't even there.   I started walking with him and again asked if we could talk. He stopped and looked right at me and i told him i wanted to talk about the Mayapur Project - about doing designing the exhibits.  His eyes got so big they almost bulged from their sockets,   and he again turned his head and began walking past me like i wasn't there.   I again walked with him, and again he snubbed me the third time.        I was very disappointed because even though I have major differences with them,   I had always looked forward to doing that service for SP.  I had dreams of doing it.  I would think about it day and night for years.   It was in my blood.  I considered it to be my personal service.   But, due to the circumstances,  it was taken away.     I told Hari Sauri how Jayapataka snubbed me.  Hari Sauri still asked me to join him, and later Ambarish contacted me and asked me.  Even Bhavananda tried to contact me about it,   but after that I felt too much pain to work with these people.  Ambarish and Hari Sauri, fine,  but, not Jayapatak and Bhav.  

A few years later Jayapatak got his karma for snubbing me.   

Sheesh,  sorry about the long winded story.      I didn't get to my point yet...  

So, I told Guru Gauranga how disappointed i was that i wasn't able to engage in serving SP in designing the exhibits there.  So, he told me something I've never heard before,  and I would like to know if anyone here has ever heard this.  

 

Guru Gauranga told me that Bhakta Caru told him that sometime, not too long before SP's departure, devotees asked SP something about the main temple design, trying to resolve some details,  and SP brushed off their questions,  telling them that the final main temple would never become manifest in our (his disciples) lifetimes.    That it will not rise up until after we are all gone.   Either Bhakta Caru was present when SP said this, or he was told about it right afterwards, and claims that when SP said a number of the GBC were surprised by it and talked about it at the time.    

I've never heard that before.  Guru Gauranga lived in Mayapure about 20 years ago, he was a teacher at the gurukul.   (He says his students liked him, and still respect him when they see him, that he was never mean with them).  

So, he told me that the building they're constructing right now will not be the final main temple.     I also am very disappointed with the design.  There have been many other designs that looked so much better.   Even Surabh's original designs were much more Vedic.  Years ago Hari Sauri showed me a sketch of the current design, and I asked him,   What Happened?   It's so small.   And, it looks like a mix between a bus terminal and a state capital building of the West.  What happened to the majestic 30 story high glorious temple?     He told me that all those grand designs would cost way too much.   Everyone is getting older,   there isn't much time left,  so they convinced Ambarish to spend everything he could and get this done before its time to leave.    And, he agreed.  But, he didn't have enough to build the larger designs, so they quickly rushed a new smaller  (horrible) design.     But, Guru Gauranga tells me Ambarish's money is now gone,   and the project when way over budget,    they don't have the money to complete it on time for the scheduled opening.  So, they are again cutting corners    just so they can have 'something' for the opening.    This is NOT the glorious Chandrodaya Mandir, the Temple of Understanding that SP spoke of.   

So, in one way I was actually happy to hear that SP had said this.  But, then,   did he really say that?      Anyone else every heard of this?   

Hari Bol   ys ameyatma das   

[Nori Muster]

Hello Ameyatma das - I had no idea you were going through that all those years. That's awful, like having alcoholic parents. Every Christmas they promise you a bike, but no bike ever appears. In that strange encounter, JP was probably just temporarily insane with guilt because you saw him walking with a woman.

Also, I never heard that SP said his Temple of Understanding would not be built in our lifetimes. It could be an amazing omen, if it's true.

best wishes,

Nori

[Nori Muster]

Thank you for filling in the background, that all makes a lot of sense. 

Too bad the GBC was so insecure. They destroyed themselves in a self-filfullling prophecy.

Okay, and forget about poisoning. That's a whole can of worms. Probably best to stick to one topic at a time.

And speaking of obituaries, the obituary of Sridhar Swami was another one Mukunda tried to block. Cannot remember how that turned out. I believe we ended up printing one.

[Pratyatosa]

On Friday, September 13, 2013 5:03:40 AM UTC-4, jbea...@gmail.com wrote:

The meeting was held in SP's room - Maybe you were there Pratyatosh?  If you were, I am sure you'll remember what took place.

Dear Ameyatma Prabhu, yes. I was there!

First of all, thank you very much for your detailed testimony on Jayatirtha's falldown from the prospective of ISKCON Detroit. Very interesting.

One thing that you got wrong, however, is that Naveen Krishna Prabhu was not on the GBC at that time (the early 80s). He was the ISKCON Detroit temple president and was preoccupied with his future wife and with his incredibly beautiful current wife/children leaving him/ISKCON. He wasn't on the GBC until the 90s after years of trying to start a business out of his home, completely independent of ISKCON.

I don't recall very many details of that time period. I guess my mind was preoccupied with challenges at my karmi job, trying to keep my wife/3 children happy/satisfied, problems with the local gurukula, purchasing a house, temple politics, thinking about your F.A.T.E. multimedia diorama exhibit, etc.

However, three things do stand out in my mind about that particular time/place:

1. One time when Jayatirtha was visiting, I called him from work, trying to give him some advice on your F.A.T.E. exhibit project (being financed by Ambarish Prabhu), but I decided that it was useless because it was like talking with a zombie!

2. At the Prabhupada disciples' meeting that you mentioned, Jayatirtha said, "I have never been more Krishna conscious!"

3. When Rameswara came to help replace Jayatirtha as the local GBC/"guru," he made fun of the fact that one of Jayatirtha's illicit female sex partners was such a bimbo that she thought that he must be very spiritually advanced in order to be able to have completely naked sex, including oral sex, right in front of his Radha-Krishna Deities!

BTW, the name of the former ISKCON Detroit devotee who is currently the temple president of ISKCON Alachua is Mother Mukya Prabhu. Her only son was in our gurukula in Detroit during the 80s.

Ys, Ptd

[jbea...@gmail.com]

Hari Bol,

Pratyatosh  agtSrila Prabhupad

Yes, I said Naveen was the GBC secretary, not a member of the GBC.  Back then a GBC sectretary was just that, his official post there was Secretary to the (local) GBC.   Prabhuanu was the actual TP of Detroit at the time.  But, even though Prabhanu was the 'official' TP,  Naveen basically managed the place, so in essence he acted more like the TP then Prabhanu.  But, Naveen's official post was sectretary to the (local) GBC, who was JT.  

Regarding Naveen's marital problems...  probably not the place to get into that here.  Naveen didn't leave his wife for another wife, his first wife left him.   What happened is one day Naveen gave SB class and during the class he shared a bit more information than maybe he should have.  He was trying to give example how accommodating and merciful SP and Krishna are that they accepted the Western hippies and turned us into nice Vaishnav's.   So, he gave the example of his (then current) wife.   He told everyone that after they were married he asked his wife if she had ever had sex with a man before.   She told him that before joining ISKCON she was living at a hippie flop house as the 'den mother'. and had sex with so many men, she had no idea how many men, dozens and dozens, maybe even hundreds of different men.  Naveen used her as an example of how purifying KC is, that it doesn't matter what we did before we came to SP, all that was a previous life,  once we take up KC and take initiation all that karma is forgiven.   He said, now, she is such a nice Vaishnavi, a good wife and mother and daily she was dressing the Deities and serving Krishna.  He compared her like Jagai and Madhai.  IT doesn't matter what sort of activities we performed in the past, if we follow the program SP gave us, we can become elevated to the highest platform.    He was simply trying to show how uplifting and spiritual potent chanting and following SP's mission is.   

So, when he was speaking like this, his wife was on the altar dressing the Deities and we heard a 'yelp' and gasping and commotion.    

The next day his wife came to the temple with the biggest black - eye shinner I've ever seen.   She had altar service so a number of us saw her.   Naveen mentioned to some of us that she had gone into a rage and a tantrum over Naveen's class and was throwing things at him, hitting him, and while trying to protect himself and get her under control, he wound up slapping her in the face, a bit hard, and the force mostly hit her eye.   

I can't recall his name, the head pujari at the time, he was also married.  Naveen's wife dressed the Deities every day so she and the head pujari talked everyday about their service.  She was very upset that Naveen had told all the devotees of her colorful past, she was embarrassed and upset about it.  So the head pujari comforted her and spent time with her for the next few days -   and soon decided he liked Naveen's wife better than his own wife.  So the head pujari took off with Naveen's wife and went to another temple so they could live together. 

Naveen didn't leave his first wife for someone else.  He was very upset, very distraught, when she left.   He didn't tell us all about her colorful past just to embarrass her, he was just trying to make a philosophical point and was glorifying the mercy of Krsna and Prabhupad and their potency to accept us and uplift us    even if we had a very colorful past.   But, he just wasn't very sensitive about it, though.     

[Pratyatosa]

Wow! You have a good memory for details, Ameyatma Prabhu!

I'd forgotten about the GBC secretary concoction. Probably yet another trick to increase the power/influence of individual GBC men. There is no mention of such a position in any of the GBC resolutions.

Now that you mention it, I do remember Naveen's first wife running off with the head pujari, who already had a wife of his own! She left a respectable, intelligent, educated devotee for some uneducated, not-so-intelligent rascal! I'm sure that it wasn't very long before she left him also, and left ISKCON for good in the process, right?

My theory is that all of these lesser scandals were the indirect result of all of the scandals at the top. How many of the original 11 "appointed gurus" fell down into illicit sex with their disciples/followers? "As great men do, common men follow."

ISKCON Detroit, was a real prize during the zonal acharya days. Not only was it a $20 million dollar piece of real estate, but Henry Ford's multi-millionare great-grandson was there, Walter Reuther's daughter was there, and the heiress to the Manischewitz fortune was there! :-)

BTW, back to the subject of this thread: When I went to the Mayapur festival in 1986, not only did I get severe amebic dysentery from eating the "prasadam," but when I was really, really sick, at a time when no one else was around, I was roughed up by one of the local ISKCON Mayapur goondas for allegedly breaking some silly rule. But the real reason that I got roughed up was probably because I was critical of the "gurus," and because of envy due to who I was married to (young, beautiful Urmila Devi Dasi, heiress to the Manischewitz fortune).

But as a result of my having grown up a street fighter from Lake Linden, Michigan, a predominantly French town, and my having gone through Navy officer training, which included military training by the best of the Marine Corps' seargents, he was disappointed that his physical attack didn't produce even a tiny bit of the desired result: fear and/or panic! :-)

Ys, Ptd

[rammohan das]

@"She told him that before joining ISKCON she was living at a hippie flop house as the 'den mother'. and had sex with so many men, she had no idea how many men, dozens and dozens, maybe even hundreds of different men."


Dear Prabhus, PAMHO, all glories to Srila Prabhupada,
 
This is of course most devastating, inhuman character assassination for any mataji. After having joined ISKCON, getting initiated, and while working on the altar to get things ready for deity greeting, from behind the curtain having to listen to the lecturer who happens to be her husband telling the whole temple crew about her past breach of moral regulations - even going into details. This man should have been banned from ISKCON immediately.
Yet another example of never appointing any neophyte Vaishnava for any job whatsoever. Vaishnava leaders should be elected for one year only with option of resolution of no confidence to kick the rascal out at any moment.
Btw, this mataji did not leave with another man, she left because she didn't want to have anything to do anymore with such a rascal. 

[Ron P Conroy]

dandavats prabhu,s 

Jai Srila Prabhupada !

                                               I,ve heard that Sadapta prabhu was   also disappointed by the turns of events concerning the planetarium. .

satyahit das                                                                 

--

[Pratyatosa]

Maybe the part about, "turned us into nice Vaishnavas" wasn't exactly true in her case. Maybe the affair with the head pujari had already secretly begun. Maybe him saying that about her "in public" was simply a desperate attempt on his part to shock her and her illicit lover into stopping their illicit affair. Who is the real rascal here: the man who publicly speaks a half-truth (the bad part being true; the good part being not quite true) about his wife in order to try to embarrass/encourage her to rectify herself, or the man who steals another man's wife?

I remember hearing Jayatirtha, commenting on the scandal by saying something like, "Such a beautiful wife and such beautiful children (a girl and a boy). This is so unfortunate."

In any case, most of us were degraded ex-hippies, so hearing testimony that one of us used to be a degraded hippie was not such a big deal in those days of the "free love," "Make love; not war," "If it feels good, do it!" movement. We thought that birth control pills gave us the power to cheat the laws of karma, but this is not possible. Why do you think that there has been such a dramatic upswing in breast cancer since the invention of birth control pills?

The law of karma, like the law of gravity, works without fail, whether one believes in it or not. Therefore, most of the ISKCON pretender gurus, being ex-hippies, may think that they can cheat the law of karma, but it's not possible. They will get a negative reaction for their charade without fail. It's just a matter of time. The longer they are able to delay the inevitable, the worse the reaction is going to be!

Ys, Ptd

[Nori Muster]

A lot of what prudish ISKCON people considered scandals were just the ordinary bumps in the road that all human beings suffer. Like, if there is a divorce, extramarital or premarital sex, addiction problems, etc., it is not a crime of metaphysical proportions. It just happens.

However, I agree that crimes among the leaders taught the rest of us it was okay to lie, steal, bully, etc.

My ISKCON role model Ramesvara yelled, shamed people, lied, and had temper tantrums to get his way. It was his management style. Also, they forced you to lie about certain things, which got us used to lying.

Unfortunately, by observing Rames, I thought it was okay to behave like a two year old. It took me a long time to get over it after leaving ISKCON. 

Also, ISKCON had more than average family violence. 

I attribute that to the hillbilly leadership in backward temples, and it quickly evolved into systemic child abuse in the schools and rural communities.

Once it was established, pedophiles flooded into the movement where they could get easy access to children. If they offered money, the stupid ISKCON leaders welcomed them in.

[navee...@gmail.com]

Dear Prabhus. Pamho. Agtsp.

Well, I have remain uninvolved with a lot of what is said here, not because I agree or disagree but because enough intelligent and sincere  devotees keep posting here on many issues.

The reason I am writing now is not to defend myself in anyway but to defend and clear up the mistaken information about my former wife Mahanandini dasi. About myself, no matter what anybody says would be a small fraction of my faults and offences. For years and years, as TP and then GBC in the false Iskcon ,  I was assisting whole heartedly the worst offenders and hijackers of Srila Prabhupadas glorious mission and for that I must suffer for millions of births. I will not elaborate on that now, but I am eternally grateful to Srila Prabhupada and many of you for having pulled me out of that terrible association and service so I may someday have a chance to be redeemed and be given a place among the real devotees of His Divine Grace.

Now, I can only assume that some of the things that Ameyatma Prabhu writes about my class etc are memories about another person/situation. In fact I do know of persons who have had that kind of colorful background who were in Detroit then and then became shining examples of saintly wonderful devotees. I must say in all truth that I never gave such a class about my former wife; I could not have because it is very  far from the truth about her. 

Now, the truth is that my former wife ( who I still pray for that she will have a wonderful life and reenter the abode of the Lord after this life) was never involved with any other man before her marriage to me. She was a virgin and only 18 years old when we met at the Univ of Illinois where I was a grad student and she was an undergrad student. She was never a hippie or living in a hippie house. We were both living in dorms that were close to each other and met in the student cafeteria. She was a devoted wife and a loving mother and trying to serve as devotedly as anybody else. I was very busy as the TP and neglectful of her emotional needs.  Being at the temple from 4 am to 10 pm daily was very regular for me and very hard for her. She started doing the deity service and working closely with the head pujari Ramanada Raya, who was married to Govinda Rupini dasi. 

That working together turned into a strong attachment for each other and by the time we found out what was going on it was too late. She had lost her attachment to me and wanted to be with him.  He was sent to France, she was sent to India to try and break things up but it did not work. They both came back to the US after a few months, and soon after they both moved into her fathers house in Chicago and she filed for divorce. Jayatirtha was involved and aware all the time(but he was having his own immoral issues that I was unaware of). I have spared you many of the details but this is the essence. I tried to stop the divorce, but no success. Then between JT and I we discussed about how to go on. Sannyasa was discussed as was remarriage. I decided to remarry someone who I knew well enough would be dedicated to serving SP for the rest of her life and be a good companion to me, and it is my good fortune that Krishna directed me to make   the right decision. JT approved of the relationship and so did my mother who knew what was going on all along. 

Many many years later I read in the conversation books that SP said that on the altar only husband and wife should be together. (or men only or women only). So SP warning was not heeded by me, unknowingly, but the result was there as he warned about. I can also conjecture about karma and all of that but choose not to. 

Just so you know, I have letters from Urmila dasi, Rameya Prabhu and Mahanandini dasi confirming this history. So please do not misunderstand this history and create pain for others for no good reason. Thank you.

Your servant,

Naveen. 

[mic...@fitnessblowout.com]

after so much violence and insanity, you still believe this is some genuine spiritual movement?  you still can't see you've been had.  still don't realize it's not real.

[JBeals]

I think the title was Regional Secretary. 

Some years back, early 2000's, a GBC affiliated devotee told me that a number members of the GBC had wanted the GBC to re-consider the Rtvik issue.  But, the biggest single factor that kept any such discussion off the table was JP who FIERCELY opposed -  And the reason the rest of the GBC went along was because JP had so many gunda disciples....  
Basically this devotee told me the more open GBC members were intimidated by JP's goons.    At the time he had the most disciples as anyone else (Now Radhanath may have surpassed him??  )    Whn JP had his stroke, or whatever it was,   there was some hope that he was finished and finally the more moderate open GBC members could get the rtvik issue back on the discussion table,      but, JP recovered enough   to still remain a force to deal with,   mainly because of his guunda organization.

Pratyatosh said:
 ---   My theory is that all of these lesser scandals were the indirect result of all of the scandals at the top. How many of the original 11 "appointed gurus" fell down into illicit sex with their disciples/followers? "As great men do, common men follow."
 
Exactly.  But not indirectly - Directly.     Just after it became known that JT had affair with his disicple,   Prabhanu, the TP,    he was also married,    he divorced and took off with Purnim Chandra's wife.  Purnim Chandra and his wife were both Indians.    I confronted Prabhanu when he was leaving and chastised him for breaking up two families (his own marriage, and Purnim Chandra's family, as he had a son also) and how degraded it was that he stole another man's wife.  He smirked and said,  "Why not?  The Gurus do even worse!"    He openly used JT's fall down as an excuse for him to commit such a-dharma.    

(BTW, because he was TP he also managed the funds for the museum project -   and i found out that he told Ambarish that I had gone over budget, by 25k, when the fact was I completed the project 25k UNDER Budget.  That was 50k difference.  My budget for the museum was $135k for all the Audio-Visual equipment, the projectors, theatrical lighting, the control system, sound systems,  production eq, etc.  and I kept my own records of every dollar that I spent.  According to my own records I came in under budget by $25k.     I strongly suspect that Prabhanu stole 50k...

Toward the end of my work I needed to make one last major buy of equipment,   so I went to Prabhanu and asked for $25k.  There should have been 50k in the project's account, and so I requested 25k.  Prabhanu told me it wasn't there.   He said he would have to ask Ambarish if he can send more money.   What???  I asked him where the 50k was?  Prabhanu insisted that I had spent it all.   I told him I kept my own records and there was supposed to be $50k in that account.   I asked to see his records,   because I assured him I did NOT over spend.       He got all squirmish but insisted i had spent the full amount,   but also refused to show me his books.  

He got Ambarish to send another $25k,   telling him that I had gone Over Budget.    so I contacted Ambarish myself and told him that I kept my own records and was under budget,   and that $50k was missing.    I told him that Prabhanu refused to show me his records, and so I told Ambarish i suspected he had embezzled the money.   Maybe Ambarish asked someone to look into it, I don't know.  But, he sent the $25k and his reply to me was that he trusted the temple management would sort things out.     Maybe because Prabhanu was was feeling the heat, he took off a few weeks later  -  with Purnim Chandras wife.      He moved to Oregon, near Roseburg. 

Sort of way out in the middle of no where with no temples around.   No body knew where he went, but i found out...

My brother lived in Roseburg then.   It wasn't right away, in fact, it was quite a few years later, but, my brother put his house up for sale, he was moving to Wyoming.  A guy came to look at it.  The guy liked the house and agreed to buy it.  At the closing my brother greeted him and said, "Hare Krsna".  This guy was dressed in karmi clothes and was surprised,    he asked,   do you know me?  My brother said, no,  but, he knew he was a HK devotee.  How?   He said, "I can see your neck beads, and I saw you still have a sikha".    Anyway, it wound up being Prabhanu, he bought my brothers house -  Krishna works in unbelievable ways. 

But, back to the point, yes, he Directly linked his taking off with another man's wife and breaking up their family and marriage on the misbehavior of the gurus - GBC.

Actually, the fall down of the Gurus wasn't directly to blame.  Who is at fault is the GBC.   Regardless this man was guru or not, he was GBC.  And, as GBC he had a major falldown, and the GBC simply slap wrists.  The GBC knew he had affair years earlier, that's why they forced him to take sannyas, but they were still propping him up as big big guru. A few weeks of rehab and the GBC continue to prop them up as Maha-Bhagavat Acaryas.  And, they left them in the post of GBC, even though they had major fall-down. 
SP had said that in his presence he was very lenient, but in his absence the GBC must be very diligent and very strict -  to keep the post of GBC to the highest standards.    Who was to blame was the GBC for not obeying SP's orders.  They failed to keep the post of GBC pure and to the highest standards.   Guru, that is a whole other thing,    they weren't real gurus,   but, even if they were,   guru has to be held to even higher standard.   But, GBC standard should have been if someone is found have fallen down,  remove them,  immediately.  and, only if they correct themselves and re prove themselves after a year or 2,   "maybe" they can be considered for GBC post again.  But, all they did was barely wrist slapping.   That is the real cause of all the chaos that followed.  Men running off with other men's wives,  families breaking up, etc.      The GBC's philosophy was,   these men are Gurus, they have Disciples....      we have to consider the grand disciples...   if we punish the guru for falling down,   and remove him as GBC it could break the faith of their disciples... and they might leave,    so, we have to protect the grand disciples.  Protect them????    HELL, they butchered them.     Protecting them would mean -  Sorry, this man Fell down, we suggest you no longer see him as your master or guide.  If your a new devotee,    WARNING    don't accept this man as your guru,   he isn't really qualified.  That would be 'protecting'     And,  if GBC has fallen down,   chastise them.  Remove them from GBC     - That would be 'Protecting' the rank and file members from being under the authority of someone who was fallen.  That would be 'protecting' the purity of the post of GBC.    What they did was cause so much hardship, chaos and failure.    If the GBC had been Strict, then people like Prabhanu would have thought more than twice,   oh, if i do something wrong, there will be reaction.  Instead, they saw,    oh the big leaders fall down left and right and nothing really bad happens,    so i can do what i want also.     Not Indirectly,   Directly the GBC are to blame. 

On 9/14/2013 3:16 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:

[JBeals]

Rammohan,
Dandabats,  agtSrila Prabhupad

I wouldn't be so fast to condemn.  Naveen was, and is, a nice devotee and responsible one.  I agree that he should have been more diplomatic in using his wife as example,   he probably should have said,   one devotee told him about her previous life....        and not told everyone who said it.  

But, SP used to say the same thing.  Even when he was speaking about Jadurani, Jamuna, Govind dasi,   He would say of his first female disciples that they were living in the streets,      that "living in the streets" meant they were sleeping here, there, in this flop houses, that flop house, sleeping with who knows how many men.   But, he said by taking up KC they became nice Vaishnavis.   Naveen was only trying to say the same thing.   That these boys and girls were living such abominable lives, free sex, illicit sex with so many partners.    Naveen should have been a little more sensitive and not told everyone he was speaking of his wife,   maybe, but that he did so wouldn't be sufficient to ban him from ISKCON and punish him like anything.  Overall he is a very responsible and nice Prabhupadanuga.       

BTW,   if it makes you feel any better, Krsna did punish him,   immediately,    he lost his wife and his family was totally broken.   He very much loved his wife and children, especially his two nice children.  I know his daughter married Akhilananda's son and lives near him in Alachua,   not sure what happened to his son.  

As far as Nandini's (Nori's) comment that "Maybe the affair with the head pujari had already secretly begun. Maybe him saying that about her "in public" was simply a desperate attempt on his part to shock her and her illicit lover into stopping their illicit affair."

Yes,   Srila Prabhupad had given the instruction that men and women should NOT do service at the same time on the altar.    But, at the time this was common practice, as it remains so today.      Then SP added,  if they are married, then it is all right.     So, a devotees said,  oh,   if the woman is married and the man is also married, then they can do service at the same time on the altar?     SP, said,  No,     only if the man and woman are Husband and Wife, together,   they can be on the Altar at the same time,  not that the man is married to a different woman and the woman is married to a different man.  Only married couples can do service together.    
So, you're right,    Naveens first wife and this head pujari were on the altar together everyday, speaking together about what krishna will wear, what colors, how to match, what flowers, they get used to talking, associating,   complimenting one another on the way they dress like this and that.  They get too intimate and forget, oh she is someone else's wife.    In close association, then attraction comes.     If there were knowledge of this instruction by SP, if it had been implemented, then these two wouldn't have had such close association.

The good thing is   SP left us EVERYTHING in his instructions.   Everything is there  -  someday over a few generations people will be able to better follow what he taught....   but, even though SP told this,     no one put it into practice.  There wasn't any message sent out to all temples instructing this injunction concerning men and women being on the altar at the same time.   Rather,  the devotees probably considered it and thought,    oh,  this is too difficult...  it's hard enough finding enough pujaris,  and now we have to restrict and make changes?  No more should there be unmarried men and women mixing on the altar,   and even if they are married,    still if they aren't husband and wife,  they can't be on the altar together,   this is impossible to implement,  so we wont' even try.    But, SP gave us everything,  someday a generation will be born who will try to follow.  

  

On 9/14/2013 6:46 AM, rammohan das wrote:

[Nori Muster]

The Internet sometimes make me feel like a spirit soul floating in the brahma jyoti.

You talk about someone and there they are . . . . and they can talk to you. Have we all been here before? 

Nori

[Pratyatosa]

The earliest mention that I was able to find of "Regional Secretary" or "regional secretaries" in the GBC resolutions was in 1992:

http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GBCRES1992.htm

Obviously, it's not something that Srila Prabhupada sanctioned.

Yes. Now I remember that other illicit affair also. It was quite a shock that an American devotee, taking unfair advantage of his respected position as the temple president, used his position in order to steal the beautiful East Indian bodied wife of an East Indian bodied man! Talk about disrespect for the sanctity of marriage! How can anyone with a young, beautiful wife feel safe within ISKCON, when so many of the ISKCON leaders have no such scruples!

As far as what to do when a "guru" falls down goes, the GBC have painted themselves into a corner. It's a no-win situation for them. The longer that they put off the inevitable switching back to Srila Prabhupada's ingenious ritvik system of initiations, the more that they are going to have to suffer!

Ys, Ptd

On Saturday, September 14, 2013 12:39:06 PM UTC-4, JBeals wrote:

[Pratyatosa]

On Saturday, September 14, 2013 12:24:40 PM UTC-4, navee...@gmail.com wrote:

 I can only assume that some of the things that Ameyatma Prabhu writes about my class etc are memories about another person/situation....She was a virgin and only 18 years old when we met at the Univ of Illinois...I have letters from Urmila dasi, Rameya Prabhu and Mahanandini dasi confirming this history.

 

Dear Naveen Krishna Prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP!

Thank you very much for giving us your side of the story. I have no memory of you ever having given such a class. Of course, I didn't go to the Bhagavatam class except maybe on the weekends, because I had to be at work at 8 am or even earlier, but it seems like something significant enough that I would have heard about it "through the grapevine," if it had actually happened.

Are the "letters," from my wife, Ramiya Prabhu, and Mother Mahanandini Prabhu, recent emails, or what? In any case, please, if it's not too much trouble, quote the portions of these "letters" which are relevant to this discussion.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Ron P Conroy]

coool

--

[Nori Muster]

it shows how easy it is to get a rumor started

and people love rumors because look at all the false or partially true email chain letters that get fwd'ed around without anybody even checking Snopes.com

I hate to be a know-it-all, but it is obvious that lies may pass for truth in stressful situations . . . 

[Pratyatosa]

---------- Forwarded  (with permission)  ----------
From: Naveen Khurana
Date: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 3:48 PM
Subject: my former wife
To: Pratyatosa, Ameyatma dasa

Prabhu. Pamho. Agtsp. Yes, the grapevine would have got the word out. Or somebody else will remember even now. Ameyatma Prabhu will be hard pressed to find other witnesses. I hopehe will consider that he is mixing up some memories. What I did say in one class I remember is about SP giving the OK to have a second child and that we had chanted 50 rounds after that on a certain day and that my former wife was pregnant just after one attempt. That may have created a commotion on the altar because I know she was uncomfortable that I spoke like that. Perhaps it was a private matter that was not to be shared, but I was connecting that to SP.

 The letters are old and hard copy; the one from my former wife was a personal letter written when she was in India and asking to be forgiven and then allowed to come back. The other 2 are for public consumption. I will scan the other 2 and send them to you.

 Trust all is well with you.

 YS. NKd

PS: I am copying Ameyatma Prabhu on this; we are old friends and have a good clean friendship so no need to be concerned.

From: Pratyatosa
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 12:35 PM
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: "Mayapura: Not Very Safe For Devotees?"

On Saturday, September 14, 2013 12:24:40 PM UTC-4, navee...@gmail.com wrote:

I can only assume that some of the things that Ameyatma Prabhu writes about my class etc are memories about another person/situation....She was a virgin and only 18 years old when we met at the Univ of Illinois...I have letters from Urmila dasi, Rameya Prabhu and Mahanandini dasi confirming this history.

Dear Naveen Krishna Prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP!

Thank you very much for giving us your side of the story. I have no memory of you ever having given such a class. Of course, I didn't go to the Bhagavatam class except maybe on the weekends, because I had to be at work at 8 am or even earlier, but it seems like something significant enough that I would have heard about it "through the grapevine," if it had actually happened.

Are the "letters," from my wife, Rameya Prabhu, and Mother Mahanandini Prabhu, recent emails, or what? In any case, please, if it's not too much trouble, quote the portions of these "letters" which are relevant to this discussion.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[Pratyatosa]

Attached are the "to whom it may concern" letters from my wife and from Ramiya Prabhu concerning Naveen Krishna Prabhu's performance as Temple President/GBC Regional Secretary at ISKCON Detroit during the early 80s.

BTW, my wife knew about men and women who are not married to each other not being allowed on the altar together right after Srila Prabhupada said it on a morning walk on July 20, 1976, because I was there! He stopped dead in his tracks just before he said it, and I was right behind him only a few inches away, so I was able to hear him clearly. It was a very dramatic moment! :-)

This was the 7th anniversary of man first walking on the moon, and it was the last day that Srila Prabhupada went on a morning walk in his beloved New York City where his beloved Hare Krishna Movement had officially begun ten years earlier, almost to the day (July 13, 1966: the incorporation of ISKCON).

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

From <http://causelessmercy.com/t/?P=760720mw.ny&TP=6906>:

Tamala Krsna: In most temples that is not the system right now.

Prabhupada: No, that system should be introduced.

So, why wasn't it introduced?

On Sunday, September 15, 2013 9:46:58 PM UTC-4, Pratyatosa wrote:

[Pratyatosa]

That reminds me. About a decade ago, I was on an email list that was exclusively for members of the Lake Linden-Hubbell High School class of '62. Then one of my former classmates, out of ignorance, forwarded an Internet hoax. I immediately pointed out to everyone that it was a hoax, and gave a link to something like <http://www.hoaxbusters.org/> as proof.

Well, guess what. That's the last I heard from them! Seems they didn't want the association of a "know-it-all" who wasn't afraid to speak the truth! :-)

Ys, Ptd

On Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:54:11 PM UTC-4, Nori wrote:

[rammohan das]

Dear Prabhus,
PAMHO all glories to Srila Prabhupada!

See below Keshava Swami reporting in deatail how his brother Sadhu das was attacked and how it was uncovered that these "gentlemen" intended to make this murder as an offering to Bhadrakali. Still - this seems present ISKCON etiquette - they conclude, "plz don't commit Vaishnava aparadha against those Dhamavasis who try to slit your throat": "First they grab the victim by his genitals, like the sacrificial goat, and then cut off his throat with a special sword as an offering from a member of the criminal family. We noted that one of the nefarious delinquents was wearing a Brahmin thread. This means for sure he's chanting mantras for the sacrifice to the deity of Bhadrakali, very common in West Bengal."

Immediately upon arrival they sprayed pepper gas in his eyes. Although he managed to protect his left eye, his right eye became disabled and he had to defend himself with partial vision. Next, the principal attempting killer, holding a serrated edge blade sharp knife, caught him by the testicles and tried to immobilize Sadhu, while at the same time trying to cut off his throat. While this was going on, the other assailants were beating him with sticks and punches. He defended himself protecting his throat with his hands and arms, while exposing those parts of his body to severe injuries. He kept defending himself in this way for three to four minutes, receiving during this time over 150 lesions in his arms, hands and throat. Protecting his jugular vein with his right thumb, he sacrificed it to save his life, as the thumb was almost entirely cut off at the distance of 3 mm from the throat. His right thumb was severely injured during the fight and the doctors had to amputate its first proximal phalanx.

Soon Sadhu realized that he was becoming debilitate and weak due to the severe bleeding and the very hard fight, and, to avoid a worse situation, simulated being dead by falling on the floor and making a big noise with his feet. The murderers immediately stopped the coward action thinking that the killing operation was accomplished. This gave Sadhu a little time to recuperate his strength and from the floor he watched them exiting. He was worried of them also attacking our 87-year old mother who was still asleep in the room next door. She was very lucky because she did not hear the noise caused by the commotion of the assault. When Sadhu recovered a little and regained some strength, he stood up, ran to the door screaming for help and started going down the stairs in search of assistance. The criminals came back and the fight continued in the corridor till he reached the third floor. Some of the perpetrators tried to stop him from going to the street, but Sadhu was determinate, roaring and fighting in a way that they became afraid and abandoned their wicked action. At the same time, the father-in-law and the brother-in-law, both accomplices of the principal assailant implicated in this criminal and abominable act, were stationed at the entrance door of the ground floor of the building blocking devotees from going upstairs to help Sadhu who desperately was fighting with the criminals.

As it is stated: "mare krishna rakhe ke, rakhe krishna mare ke", if Krishna protects someone, no one can kill him, and if Krishna wants to kill someone, no one can save him.

Please dear devotees, try to understand these very important points:

1. That we should not try to imitate the Dhamavasis, and we probably shouldn't associate with them to closely.

2. However, we definitely should not commit Vaishnava aparadha against them.

source:  http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-13/editorials10714.htm