Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
rainer hahn
Well written, however - meanwhile trademark of many ritviks - hopelessly divided camps. No sense to cooperate whatsoever.
30 Back To Prabhupada magazines all trash, no mentioning of anything good with IRM? Happy to defeat each other? Not sure if the Prabhupadanuga process has already reached that point of turning down others who also want to worship Prabhupada?
I expect Krishna Kant will come back with pages of nonsense meant to divert the readers attention from the points Srila Prabhupada has clearly established here and claim "I have defeated Madhudvisa." But we will leave it to the thoughtful readers to decide who has actually been defeated.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Your servant
Madhudvisa dasa
Mukunda dasa
Prabhupada is Giving has become Lost to
the World, then Talk of His Successor
http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/articles1/prabhupada_success.htm
tim lee
This is a total concotion and had the GBC laughing in stiches at the IRM's concocted huge error. Apart from that, Krishna kanta also said that when someone says in whispers "the poison is going down" we should "work with those people and make them the new ISKCON ritviks." Oh swell! So, he said he wanted to go to war with PADA, he does not want to work with us, rather, he wants to work with the people who are saying "the poison is going down"? No wonder he has been rejected all over the place. Yes, Madhuvisa is correct, the IRM tried to harm the reform of ISKCON by making totally baseless statements, and they are even discrediting Srila Prabhupada when he says "vahi bat ye hamko poison diye" etc. Anyway the good news is, most folks know all this by now. ys pd
Bhaktatraveler
From: tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: ange...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 11:34:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
mario pineda
It is clear that Srila Prabhupada did not order nor said there will be other gurus in ISKCON other thna himself. If one wants to be some sort of guru, they can try in their own society outside ISKCON.
It should be noted that practically all the devotees who are advocating for gurus, have yet to be able to follow the most basic teachings of Srila Prabhupada, like basic sadhana of 4 regulative principles and chanting 16 rounds as we are all expected to do.
In fact, many of the God brothers that do not bring devotees to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada for him to give them diksa, will at once go and have illicit sex life with a cute young boy or man or some attractive girl. So better to control the gross sex life at least first. Oh, and what to speak of the subtle sex life of trying to pass as some advanced devotee!! So first things fist. This is practical. So please dear God brothers, give Srila Prabhupada a chance to purify us and thus give your selves a break and the rest of us. Please consider. Thank you. We should ask ourselves. How many books have I distributed today? How many plates of Prasada have I distributed? What suffering person have I helped so they do not suffer? Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Prabhupada are all about being simple, humble, merciful and compassionate toward the most suffering. So we should first ask ourselves how much we are following the principles and sadahana and what we are practically doing, and how many souls are we bringing to Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet, before we even consider in replacing him. This is the need of the day and most practical. Lets keep an eye on those who talk a lot about replacing Srila Prabhupada before they do the most basic following of his teachings.
Sincerely,
Mahatma dasa
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tim lee
========================
PD: OK, I think that people are misunderstanding the point of diksha, diksha means "divyam jnanam which destroys sins," and ALL pure devotees speak pure divyam jananam -- which destroys sins, that means: they initiate others into Krishna consciousness by giving others pure divyam jnanam. That means they are initiating others by preaching pure divyam jnanam. As Srila Prabhupada says, the ceremony is formality, those who accept his teachings / the pure jnanam are already initiated (because they accept his divyam jnanam).
I am not sure why you imply there is a "requirement" to give this initiation, but anyway, that is the result, the result of association with a pure devotee is, one gets pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins. I am not sure what your point is, are you saying when a pure devotee gives pure divyam jnanam, he is "replacing" another pure devotee? I am not sure what you exact point? Pure devotees speak: and by so doing they initiate others into Krishna consciousness, that is what they do, they do not replace anyone, they add to what all other pure devotees are doing. No one will ever replace Srila Prabhupada, but that does not mean some pure persons will not come forward to preach and give the pure divyam jnanam later? Krishna Kanta says that no one will ever be able to give diksha (pure divyam jnana) for 10,000 years, he is wrong, this was never stated. Its speculation. ys pd
Ken McLEOD
Madhudvisa himself is also being a little misleading by avoiding speaking about this, because people who don't understand may get the idea that if a real guru comes forth via self effulgence etc, then that person will act within Iskcon, or take over Iskcon. I believe that this is the impression 99.9% of devotees have. Let's never forget that Srila Prabhupada went out on His own, he never took over His Guru's society, and similarly there is no instruction anywhere for a successor to take over His society , His good name etc etc.
If we consider it in this context we truelly get the vision of how Great Srila Prabhupada is, how, He came to the westen world and achieved what He has.
This is a lot for any future voted in guy to live up to.
First of all Madhudvisa prabhu, let's see things in the context of the bird being kicked out of it's nest and going out into the world on it's own. Right now the vast majority of these men who are somehow going to miraculously press their pendants and turn into prince planet, are living very comfortable lives within their Masters society, being waited on like they are all King Tut's, eating soy icecream and ordering vegan meal's, under these circumstances I wouldn't hold out to much hope for any of these over burdening first generation voted in guys, to go out on their own start their own matha and have the success Srila Prabhupada did!
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:52:58 -0800
From: bhaktat...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Pratyatosa
It's my understanding that a pure devotee would be completely satisfied doing whatever menial service his spiritual master gives him. I remember a class that Tamal Krsna gave in Chicago in the early-mid 70s. He said, "Everyone knows that the most advanced devotee in the San Fransisco temple is the guy who fixes the cars." He was talking about Jayananda Prabhu! :-)
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Ken McLEOD
From: kurmano...@live.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:00:46 +1100
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
From: Ken McLEOD <kurmano...@live.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:00:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: ange...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 4:01:37 PM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: RE: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
mark mclaughlin
| All disciples of Srila Prabhupada have been ordered to follow 2 paths (margas or viddhis) simultaneously. 1. Bhagavata Marga/Viddhi - Hearing/chanting the Maha Mantra 2. Vedic Marga/Viddhi - rules and regs. For Iskcon the Vedic path = Pancaratrika Viddhi or the pancaratra samskara activities. For all neophyte sadhakas, chanting the Maha Mantra is first and foremost even though it is done offensively. This takes care of the Bhagavata path. To reduce offenses and come to a more true appreciation of Krsna's presence in his Names, we follow the pancaratrik path of rules and regs. It is not optional. And even if there were some among us who were already nitya siddha and technically did not need rules and regs to make further spiritual advancement, they would never reveal this but would cover it and follow strictly to set a proper example. The Diksa Initiation vows and receiving of mantras is part of those pancaratrik rules and regs. Our Pancaratrika Diksa initiation ceremony includes the transfer of some mantras that contain transcendental knowledge. Yet the process of Diksa or Divya Jnanam BEGAN when we first received some transcendental knowledge of Krsna and the potency of his names. Yes, in reality Diksa occurs first informally. As it is a process, it continues to unfold and we learn more and more about our relationship with Krsna as time goes on. At some point the formal initiation ceremony includes taking of vows and transfer of specific mantras, both of which enable the candidate to gain more transcendental knowledge (divya jnana) and greatly reduce offenses as they advance spiritually. The Bhagavata path is simple. Chant Maha Mantra. Repeat. The path of rules and regs is more complex. A bona fide spiritual master and acarya can make minor adjustments to the Vedic path according to time, place, and circumstance. They are empowered to have the discrimination so as to not change any practices which would prevent the essence from being gained by his disciples. Narada made changes. The goswamis made changes inspired by Mahaprabhu. Srila Prabhupada's Guru and his Father made changes. Then came Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada made the rules and said now you follow. Not change as needed. It is the Temple President and the most qualified local brahmana who will generally determine observe aspirants over time and determine who is fit for Pancaratrika Mantra Diksa Initiation. Just like it ever was. We rely on a couple core books for our Pancaratrika samskaras. Srila Prabhupada, as founder/acarya of his Society, made a few minor changes or additions. He gave his temple presidents full authority to observe and select disciples on his behalf. He required them to formally send a request for each candidate to him at which point he chanted on beads, chose a name, spoke mantras on a tape, and mailed them to the TP. He recorded the name of the new disciple in his Disciples book. He did not investigate the candidate himself, he trusted his TPs. Next he gradually trained his senior most disciples to handle his personal end of this process and became hands off. He called them ritviks. He asked that we continue this method of fulfilling pancaratrik Diksa initiation after he was no longer with us. Bas. There is still plenty of work to be done for all those with the teaching propensity. They will make fine siksa-gurus. And yes they will share lots of divya jnanam. Within Iskcon, by his order, Srila Prabhupada remains the Diksa Guru. This keeps him in the center which emphasizes that all Siksa offered by ANYONE must be reconciled with SRILA PRABHUPADA'S Siksa. His method of adjusting this particular pancaratrik formality has no precedent within Gaudiya Sastra. BUT neither is it prohibited. And it clearly does nothing to prevent the essence of that particular stage of the unfolding process of Diksa from being potent. If it was harmful, SP never would have instituted it in the first place. |
Jayalaksmana Dasa
| The many faces of Madhudvisa das |
by IRM
1) Madhudvisa makes it clear he does NOT support Krishnakant (KK) or The Final Order:
| "Personally I want to make it very clear that I do not support KK's paper or his movement as being bona fide at all." (Madhudvisa Das, 24th April, 2005) |
2) Madhudvisa makes it clear he DOES support Krishnakant (KK) and The Final Order:
| "My observation is the ritvik philosophy as presented by KK is quite sound. He points out that Prabhupada says three times in the July 9th letter that the disciples will be his disciples and that is a signed legal document that was mailed to all temples and GBC's under Prabhupada's instruction WITH Prabhupada's Will. So this is a very important document. It is quite rare for Prabhupada to send a letter to all temples and GBC's." (Madhudvisa Das, Letter to Locanananda Das, 12/12/01) |
3) Madhudvisa makes it clear that ritvik is the ONLY authorised system for ISKCON for after Srila Prabhupada's departure:
| "I understand Prabhupada established a ritvik system to continue to accept disciples after his departure from our material vision and that is the only authorized system of initiation in ISKCON." (Madhudvisa Dasa, 24/11/01, Letter to Krishnakant and Others)
"My realization is we have to give Srila Prabhupada the credit of the great intelligence and judge of character that we know he had. He established a ritvik system for continuing the initiations in ISKCON" "Prabhupada could not force his disciples to accept the ritvik system or follow any of the instructions he gave them. He gave the instruction... But what more could he do?" |
4) Madhudvisa makes it clear that ritvik is NOT the only authorised system for ISKCON for after Srila Prabhupada's departure:
| "Here Prabhupada clearly states his disciples are being trained to be future diksa gurus. They will act just as he is acting [i.e.: they will act as diksa gurus]" (Madhudvisa Das, "Krishnakant's Final Order - A Very Misleading Paper") "Here Srila Prabhupada orders his disciples to become spiritual master next. Clearly Srila Prabhupada is speaking of the "spiritual master's succession," he is speaking of himself as the current spiritual master and is requesting all of his disciples to "become spiritual master next." Prabhupada is clearly talking of diksa gurus." (Madhudvisa Das, "Krishnakant's Final Order - A Very Misleading Paper") |
5) Madhudvisa makes it clear that he is not clear WHAT is the authorised system for ISKCON for after Srila Prabhupada's departure - and that Srila Prabhupada "contradicted" himself:
| "Yes, on May 28 there is a contradictory statement where Prabhupada says the disciples of the Ritviks will be their disciples not Prabhupada's... So it is a bit strange..." (Madhudvisa Dasa, Letter to Locanananda Das, 12/12/01) |
6) Madhudvisa makes it clear that we should COMPLETELY FORGET about Srila Prabhupada's instructions on initiation and let ISKCON go to hell:
| "Prabhupada's ISKCON has now ceased to exist. The organization that now exists has no connection with Prabhupada at all and it can not be rectified simply by changing the initiation system. [...]Forget about ISKCON. Let them go to hell by themselves..." (Madhudvisa Dasa, Letter to Locanananda Das, 12/12/01) |
7) Madhudvisa states that his future diksa gurus should operate as rival missions to that of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON:
| "There's nothing wrong with qualified disciples starting their own branches of ISKCON and preaching and making disciples and initiating them as a diksa guru" (Madhudvisa, "Problems with The Final Order", 1998) |
8) Madhudvisa states that his future diksa gurus may fall down and that this will not cause any harm:
| "Of course they (the new gurus) have to be qualified, but they will not be successful if they are not qualified, so what's the harm?" (Madhudvisa, "Problems with The Final Order", 1998) |
9) Madhudvisa initiates himself as sannyasa:
Madhudvisa prabhu was also previously known as Madhudvisa Swami (NOT the ex-GBC sannyasi!) and Mahasringa Swami, having also given himself sannyasa initiation via a picture of Srila Prabhupada.
10) Madhudvisa DE-initiates himself as sannyasa:
However, he later decided that he did not want to be a sannyasi, and reverted back to the name Madhudvisa Das.
Pratyatosa
1. Follow the Latest Order
From a lecture by Śrīla Prabhupāda on the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Hyderabad, India, April 15, 1975:
I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly, "Do it", your first duty is to do that. You cannot argue, "Sir, you said me like this before." No, that is not your duty. What I say now, you do it. That is obedience.
If the captain of the ship says “5° starboard” and the first mate replies, “But captain, before you told me ‘10° port’.,” then it can be understood that the first mate has gone insane.
Therefore, to say that "Before he wanted this, but now he wants this," or "Now he is against me, but earlier he was for me," is simply silly, pointless, vengeful fault-finding, and is not becoming of a devotee.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Bhaktatraveler
From: Jayalaksmana Dasa <jayalaks...@googlemail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 3:15:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Jayalaksmana Dasa
--
tim lee
Dear prabhus, The problem with "The Final Order" ... for the next 10,000 years is: there was no "final order" regarding how potential future pure devotees would interact with ISKCON for the next 10,000 years. First of all, Srila Prabhupada never said there would be no more pure devotees participating in ISKCON and / or giving divyam jnanam in ISKCON for the next 10,000 years? He never said, "When or if another pure devotee comes for the next 10,000 years, Krishna Kanta can kick him out of the ISKCON temples"? That's just not what he said? Of course, since we collectively allowed ISKCON to go into the crapper, why would a future pure devotee even bother with ISKCON? ISKCON means Krishna conscious society, if someone is purely Krishna conscious, he is in ISKCON automatically. ISKCON is not a corporate legal entity
owned by Krishna Kanta, it is a group of devotees who worship Krishna. Any pure devotee is automatically in ISKCON, its a state of being and not a legal control issue.
Srila Prabhupada said some ISKCON guru may appear in future "on my order." If a future pure devotee appears, he will do what Srila Prabhupada and Krishna dictates, not what Krishna Kanta dictates? There was no final order saying that for the next 10,000 years pure devotees would no longer be allowed to participate in ISKCON, this is a myth. The final order is, if Krishna sends someone who is pure, we should cooperate with him because he will be getting dictation from Krishna. Anyway, I am sure that if a pure devotee appears, he will know what to do, and how to handle the situation, because his boss is Krishna, and Krishna Katna is not going to be his boss, that is for sure! YS pd |
Bhaktatraveler
From: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 12:21:52 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 8:15:39 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Dear prabhus, The problem with "The Final Order" ... for the next 10,000 years is: there was no "final order" regarding how potential future pure devotees would interact with ISKCON for the next 10,000 years. First of all, Srila Prabhupada never said there would be no more pure devotees participating in ISKCON and / or giving divyam jnanam in ISKCON for the next 10,000 years? He never said, "When or if another pure devotee comes for the next 10,000 years, Krishna Kanta can kick him out of the ISKCON temples"? That's just not what he said? Of course, since we collectively allowed ISKCON to go into the crapper, why would a future pure devotee even bother with ISKCON? ISKCON means Krishna conscious society, if someone is purely Krishna conscious, he is in ISKCON automatically. ISKCON is not a corporate legal entity
owned by Krishna Kanta, it is a group of devotees who worship Krishna. Any pure devotee is automatically in ISKCON, its a state of being and not a legal control issue.
|
ISKCON means Krishna conscious society, if someone is purely Krishna conscious, he is in ISKCON automatically.If a future pure devotee appears, he will do what Srila Prabhupada and Krishna dictates, not what Krishna Kanta dictates? There was no final order saying that for the next 10,000 years pure devotees would no longer be allowed to participate in ISKCON, this is a myth. The final order is, if Krishna sends someone who is pure, we should cooperate with him because he will be getting dictation from Krishna. Anyway, I am sure that if a pure devotee appears, he will know what to do, and how to handle the situation, because his boss is Krishna, and Krishna Katna is not going to be his boss, that is for sure! YS pd |
mark mclaughlin
| Dear Puranjana das you said: "There was no final order saying that for the next 10,000 years pure devotees would no longer be allowed to participate in ISKCON, this is a myth." Unfortunately you seem to be equating the presence of a pure devotee with the necessity that they must be free of rules and regulations. Or that they must be able to change rules and regulations at their discretion. That dictation from Krsna automatically means that Krsna will dictate that some change be necessary to the system. This leads to a conclusion that a pure devotee worthy of being Guru would be unable to function in an Iskcon society where the rules and regs are set in stone. This is a fallacy I hope you can see. Read my post earlier in this thread. A pure born nitya siddha with great brahminical scholarship can act very freely within Iskcon without the need to perform pancaratrika diksa and officially accept their own disciples. Everyone who hears them speak will be receiving Siksa from them. Which means they will be constantly part of the Diksa process of delivering Divya Jnana to all in range. They may even be the first Bhakta a newcomer ever hears from and thus actually initiate the Diksa process in that newcomer. However, within Iskcon, if that pure devotee is to be in any way part of the formal pancaratrika diksa stage of Diksa, being a pure devotee, they will follow the rules of the Founder Acarya of the Matha. For doing so in no way impedes the flow of transcendental knowledge, nor minimizes their stature as pure devotee. This strictly following of the Acarya's minor changes to formality is more transcendental than the idea that as a pure advanced devotee following Krsna's dictation, he MUST formally claim those learning from him as HIS Disciples and NOT Prabhupadas. Perhaps Krsna dictated this process to Srila Prabhupada for a reason? That for the next 10000 years we in Iskcon may need to repeat this information time and time again just to keep Srila Prabhupada and his Siksa Vani in the center??? Regardless of who is discipling who person to person? You also must remember that not all pure devotees will be brahminically qualified to be heading up formal ceremonies or even teaching. A pure devotee can be kanistha adhikari. Candrasekara and Tapana Misra das are examples from Mahaprabhu's lila. Ponder on these things Prabhu. Hare Krsna ys Mark |
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
rainer hahn
If there would have been great need of many diksa-gurus already Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja would have started to appoint lots of his disciples born in Vaishnava families.
But Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja did not see this as important. So what is required is that people become pure devotees and with concentrated forces turn this planet into a worth living place where all people can advance spiritually and at one point become fully Krishna conscious.
Jayalaksmana Dasa
| 8) "Are you saying that Srila Prabhupada created no pure devotees?" |
No, all we are stating is that Srila Prabhupada did set up the ritvik system to allow initiations to continue. Whether or not Srila Prabhupada created pure devotees is not relevant to his clear and unequivocal final order. As disciples our duty is simply to follow the instructions of the guru. It is inappropriate to abandon the guru's instruction and instead speculate as to how many pure devotees there are now, or will be in the future.
Even taking a worst case scenario, that there are in fact no pure devotees at present, one should consider the situation that existed after the departure of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. After almost 40 years, Srila Prabhupada indicated that there was only one authorised initiating acarya produced from the Gaudiya Matha:
"Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya*. [...] instead of inspiring our students and disciple they may sometimes pollute them. [...] they are very competent to harm our natural progress." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Rupanuga, 28/4/74)*(Srila Prabhupada used the terms "acarya" and "guru" interchangeably):
"I shall choose some guru. I shall say, “Now you become acarya." [...] You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to be guru. A small temple and "guru". What kind of guru?" (Srila Prabhupada Morning walk, 22/4/77)
This could be seen as a damning indictment of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's preaching work. However, it would be extremely unwise to argue that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was a "failure". Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is known to have said that if his mission only produced one pure devotee he would have considered it a success.
Furthermore, the implementation of a ritvik system does not rule out, a priori, the possible existence of pure devotees. There are various scenarios that could easily accommodate both ritviks and pure devotees, e.g.:
Srila Prabhupada may have created many pure devotees who have no desire to become diksa gurus. There is no evidence to suggest that the most advanced devotees in ISKCON must necessarily be those individuals who put themselves up for election each year. These pure devotees may simply wish to humbly assist Srila Prabhupada's mission. It is nowhere stated that it is mandatory for a pure devotee to become a diksa guru. Such persons would be delighted to work within the ritvik system if that was their guru's order.
Srila Prabhupada's desire may be for large numbers of instructing gurus, but not necessarily for more initiating ones. This would be consistent with the earlier quoted instruction for everyone to become a siksa guru, and Srila Prabhupada's caution not to take disciples. It would also be consistent with the fact that Srila Prabhupada had single-handedly already put in place the success of his mission:
| Guest: | Are you planning to choose a successor? |
| Srila Prabhupada: | It is already successful. |
| Guest: | But there must be somebody you know, needed to handle the thing. |
| Srila Prabhupada: | Yes. That we are creating. We are creating these devotees who will handle. |
| Hanuman: | One thing He's saying, this gentlemen, and I would like to know, is your successor named or your successor will... |
| Srila Prabhupada: | My success is always there. (Srila Prabhupada Room conversation, 12/2/75 Mexico) |
"So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavour. Whether I am present or not present it doesn't matter." (Srila Prabhupada Arrival conversation, 17/5/77, Vrindavan)
| Reporter: | What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die? |
| Srila Prabhupada: | I will never die |
| Devotees: | Jaya! Haribol! (laughter) |
| Srila Prabhupada: | I will live from my books and you will utilise. (Srila Prabhupada Press Conference, 16/7/75, San Francisco) |
Reporter: Are you training a successor?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, my Guru Maharaja is there.
(Srila Prabhupada Press conference, 16/7/75, San Francisco)
(Srila Prabhupada Room conversation - translated from Hindi, 2/11/77)
| Interviewer: | What happens when that inevitable time comes a successor is needed. |
| Ramesvara: | He is asking about the future, who will guide the Movement in the future. |
| Srila Prabhupada: | They will guide, I am training them. |
| Interviewer: | Will there be one spiritual leader though? |
| Srila Prabhupada: | No. I am training GBC, 18 all over the world. (Srila Prabhupada Interview, 10/6/76, Los Angeles) |
| Reporter: | Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already? |
| Srila Prabhupada: | That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. (Srila Prabhupada Interview, 4/6/76, Los Angeles) |
| Interviewer: | I was wondering if he had a successor to do...Do you have a successor to take your place when you die? |
| Srila Prabhupada: | Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up. |
| Interviewer: | So what process? Would the Hare Krishnas... |
| Srila Prabhupada: | We have got secretaries. They are managing. (Srila Prabhupada Interview, 14/7/76, New York) |
The fact that Srila Prabhupada did not authorise any of his disciples to act as diksa guru does not necessarily mean that none of them were pure devotees. A siksa guru can also be a liberated soul. It could just be that Krishna's plan did not require them to take up such a role. Nevertheless followers of Srila Prabhupada do have an important role to play, just as when he was physically present on the planet. That is to act as his assistants, not successor acaryas:
"The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/75)
"Sometimes a diksa guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa guru." (Srila Prabhupada Bg. Lecture, 4/7/74, Honolulu)
Thus the issue is not whether Srila Prabhupada created any pure devotees, but the fact that he did set up the ritvik system. Although the diksa guru at this time is not physically present, that does not mean he is not the diksa guru. In his absence we are expected to take instruction from bona fide siksa gurus, of which there may eventually be millions.Bhaktatraveler
From: rainer hahn <raine...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 12:38:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Ken McLEOD
All very perplexing
great point raised by Mark Prabhu
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:33:31 -0800
From: bhaktat...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
mark mclaughlin
| Thanks Jayalaksmana das. A collection of quotes which nicely support the truth of the ritvik system. Especially poigniant is the last one, as well as KK's subsequent comment. * "Sometimes a diksa guru is not present always. Therefore one can take |
| learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa guru." |
| *(Srila Prabhupada *Bg.* Lecture, 4/7/74, Honolulu) KK: "Thus the issue is not whether Srila Prabhupada created any pure devotees, but the fact that he *did* set up the *ritvik* system. Although the *diksa*guru at this time is not physically present, that does not mean he is not the *diksa* guru. In his absence we are expected to take instruction from bona fide *siksa *gurus, of which there may eventually be millions." Any brahminically trained and loyal disciple of Srila Prabhupada's could eventually be taught to perform 2nd initiation and repeat the gayatris to the new initiate. So if this brahmana has some transcendental knowledge and can pass on sacred mantras, surely they qualifiy as Diksa Guru? It is true that some Diksa gurus may be pure devotees but may not be as advanced in the science as another local instructor, and therefore some of that Diksa Guru's disciples may go for further instruction to another such devotee without offense. So here we have an order from the Founder Acarya that all those qualified to accept disciples should do so in every which way shape and form. EXCEPT to officially call those disciples FIRST and FOREMOST Initiated Disciples of Srila Prabhupada, and secondly one's own students as necessary within DVD society. Thus publlicly stating and reminding society and the Initiate that although qualified to observe the aspirants qualities and accept the aspirant as disciple and offer the full Diksa ceremony, that Brahmana is never qualified to change the rules and regs offered by the Founder Acarya because such authority was never granted by the founder-Acarya. Which is why everyone is actually a disciple of Srila Prabhupada because it is to be His unchanged, unadulterated discipline that we follow. All Siksa must conform to the record of His Siksa, and the Ritvik system is an overt public failsafe check and balance to assure this conformity. You can be sure that anyone who claims that Krsna has dictated to his heart that he must begin initiating his own disciples, within Iskcon, is not hearing Supersoul, unless you believe Supersoul would contradict his own teachings that he just gave through his Acarya in order to cause chaos and mayhem in those just steppig on the path to come to love him. Who would prescribe such malice and creulty to Krsna? Certainly not someone who knows him. |
tim lee
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:33:31 -0800
From: bhaktat...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Hmmm, will Puranjana answer or not? RCBhakti
From: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 10:42:13 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Dear Puranjana das
you said: "There was no final order saying that for the next 10,000 years pure devotees would no longer be allowed to participate in ISKCON, this is a myth." Unfortunately you seem to be equating the presence of a pure devotee with the necessity that they must be free of rules and regulations.
[PD: Srila Prabhupada never issued any "rules," or "orders" for any future pure devotee(s)? Where does he say, "when a pure devotee appears within the next 10,000 years, he will have to follow the following such and such orders"? You guys are bluffing. I asked KK for this in 1997, he said he was going to provide chapter and verse direct quotes, he bluffed, thats all. He never sent me zero, ever. There are no directives meant to apply to future pure devotees that I have ever seen. Where are these so-called directives?]
Or that they must be able to change rules and regulations at their discretion.
[PD: OK and where are these alleged rules for future pure devotees mandated, and why hasn't KK been able to produce ANY of them since 1997 when we asked him to provide them?]
That dictation from Krsna automatically means that Krsna will dictate that some change be necessary to the system.
[PD: A future pure devotee does not have to follow the current system of being a GBC manager / ritvik who is subordinated to corporate ISKCON or its GBC, at least we never saw that stated ANYWHERE? The GBC managerial system does not apply to another pure devotee, there is no record of any pure devotee being subordinated to a GBC? Where is any of this stated?]
This leads to a conclusion that a pure devotee worthy of being Guru would be unable to function in an Iskcon society where the rules and regs are set in stone.
[PD: There are not any rules that KK has ever produced for a future pure devotee? This is all KK's concoctions! What are KK's alleged rules (to follow the kanisthas on a GBC management system?) ... where was this or any other rules for future pure devotees mentioned, ever, by Srila Prabhupada?]
This is a fallacy I hope you can see.
[PD: The fallacy is that KK is making up out of whole cloth rules for pure devotees that were never stated, anywhere.]
Read my post earlier in this thread. A pure born nitya siddha with great brahminical scholarship can act very freely within Iskcon without the need to perform pancaratrika diksa and officially accept their own disciples.
[PD: A pure devotee does not need to follow KK's or your notes on anything? Who made you folks the boss of pure devotees? And notice, you are not citing anything stated by Srila Prabhupada, its all hot air. A pure born nitya siddha is getting dictation from God, not from KK!]
Everyone who hears them speak will be receiving Siksa from them. Which means they will be constantly part of the Diksa process of delivering Divya Jnana to all in range. They may even be the first Bhakta a newcomer ever hears from and thus actually initiate the Diksa process in that newcomer.
[PD: Again, where is this stated? This is all KK horse pukky.]
However, within Iskcon, if that pure devotee is to be in any way part of the formal pancaratrika diksa stage of Diksa, being a pure devotee, they will follow the rules of the Founder Acarya of the Matha. For doing so in no way impedes the flow of transcendental knowledge, nor minimizes their stature as pure devotee.
[PD: No rules for future pure devotees were EVER stated, ever! You are dreaming on KK's cloud nine now!]
This strictly following of the Acarya's minor changes to formality is more transcendental than the idea that as a pure advanced devotee following Krsna's dictation, he MUST formally claim those learning from him as HIS Disciples and NOT Prabhupadas.
[PD: Your statement above has even minor league grammar reader like me totally perplexed, I actually have no idea what this means above. Anyway, he must do this and he must do that, says --- who? Where is all this detailed by Srila Prabhupada?]
Perhaps Krsna dictated this process to Srila Prabhupada for a reason? That for the next 10000 years we in Iskcon may need to repeat this information time and time again just to keep Srila Prabhupada and his Siksa Vani in the center??? Regardless of who is discipling who person to person?
You also must remember that not all pure devotees will be brahminically qualified to be heading up formal ceremonies or even teaching. A pure devotee can be kanistha adhikari. Candrasekara and Tapana Misra das are examples from Mahaprabhu's lila.
Ponder on these things Prabhu.
Hare Krsna
ys
Mark
[PD: OK, I agree that Srila Prabhupada will ALWAYS be the founder acharya of ISKCON, and that his position as such will stand for the next 10,000 years, and that his books will be the pre-eminent source of divyam jnanam and so on, I am simply saying, that if another pure person comes, he will not be under the rules of people like KK, and his mis-citing of Srila Prabhupada. A pure devotee is a resident of Vaikuntha, ISKCON is an extension of Vaikuntha, to say that a pure devotee who is from Vaikuntha cannot participate in Vaikuntha, is KK's spraying too much hash oil on his pot pipe, plain and simple. I have been waiting since 1997 for his evidence of all these rules for pure devotees, it does not exist, it is all bluff, period. If KK had these rules he would have shown them to us by now, he does not, READ: he lied to me! He is a liar, period. ys pd]
mark mclaughlin
| Bhagavad-gītā 7.2 — Nairobi, October 28, 1975 Indian man: When did you become the spiritual leader of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: What is that?
Brahmānanda: He's asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: When my Guru Mahārāja ordered me. This is the guru-paramparā.
Indian: Did it...
Prabhupāda: Try to
understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's
ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
Indian woman 2: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śādhi māṁ prapannam. "I am surrendered to You. Whatever You say, I shall carry out." That's all.
Indian man: When did he tell you to...?
Prabhupāda: What is
the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It
is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?
Indian man: No, I am just curious when...
Prabhupāda: You should be curious within your limit. You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his guru, this much. 74-07-20 New Vrindaban My Dear Satyabhama and Paramananda: Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of
your letter undated and have noted the contents carefully. If Kirtanananda
Maharaja speaks what I speak, then he can be taken a siksa guru. Guru sastra
sadhu. The spiritual master is one, that is a fact. Kirtanananda Swami
may be taken a sadhu not spiritual
master, or as instructor
guru. You have written that the devotees here say that you cannot know me, but only Kirtanananda Maharaja can know me. But, if Kirtanananda is a disciple and he can know me, and you are also a disciple, why you cannot know me? I have no objection to your taking Kirtanananda's instruction. There is no harm in going through Kirtanananda. You are both old disciples, so why you should be feeling any difficulty? I hope this meets you in good health.
|
tim lee
Thanks, my point exactly, the quotes KK gives generally apply sometimes to: Neophytes, or maybe ISKCON's leaders, and / or maybe to people like Kirtanananda, and NOT to another future pure devotee. Agreed. KK said he had DIRECT QUOTES where Srila Prabhupada described how a future pure devotee would be dealt with, and he has NEVER PROVIDED THEM. Agreed: Srila Prabhupada says, a person becomes guru on the order of his guru, and he thus said he may give such an order in future, "on my order" ok all agreed. However, KK has misrepresented things by saying there is a collection of DIRECT QUOTE citations where this potential future pure devotee was ordered to follow this system, or that system, or the other system, and / or stay outside the walls of ISKCON as KK even speculated once, it does not
exist. ys pd |
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: RE: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
rainer hahn
Prabhupada: [...] A guru can become guru when he’s ordered by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
So according Puranjana prabhu any future pure devotee who will take up the post of diksa-guru would have to legitimate his authorization with something like, I was ordered by a Prabhupada's pic, tonight Prabhupada appeared and instructed me...?
This is rather unreasonable. Anybody can tell, tonight I dreamt that Prabhupada ordered me to become the next acarya.In kali-yuga you have immediately thousands of such "I was orderd in dream-acarya" what is de facto nothing but self-appointment.
Prabhupada's teaching are clear, not something vague. If another diksa-guru becomes manifest, he must be directly ordered beyond doubt by Srila Prabhupada to take up the position of initiating his own disciples.
In sum can Puranjana prabhu please explain how this ordering to take up the role of diksa-guru should be 100% clear? Remember, letter to Dayananda (12-04-68): "Regarding parampara system, there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. We have to pick up the prominent acarya and follow from him."
Why there are sometimes gaps when according to Puranjana prabhu authorization can be easily done at at any time?
tim lee
--- On Mon, 12/20/10, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote: |
|
|
|
rainer hahn
Prabhupada disproved lots of false stuff, in fact, Westerners had it all false, However, Prabhupada would not take the stance of irreconcilability and hatefully reject opponents, bang the door for ever.
Prabhupada defeated folks and later on mercifully engaged them in Krishna's service. PADA seems slamming the door on minor issues?
Jayalaksmana Dasa
PURANJANA - WHERE does KK say this? Give us the exact quote instead of passing things off as fact without any evidence to back up your claim. It seems you just imagine / invent things to suit yourself. I cut and paste directly from TFO regarding the question of whether SP created pure devotees, and this directly contradicted your made-up statement about Krishnakant. In fact, all you seem to be able to do is make things up about the IRM out of thin air and then pass them off as truth. As Bhaktaraveler says, sounds like you are suffering from "KK envy".
mario pineda
It sure seems to me that for ISKCON there is NO possibility of any diksa guru other than Srila Prabhupada. This is because the DOM, the last will and testament and the July 9th 1977 letter has already been honored by courts of law in India and the USA. Srila Prabhupada arranged it with his transcendental legal documents in this way. So it's a waste of time and also offensive to Srila Prabhupada (mad elephant offense) to even think of a diksa guru in ISKCON other than Srila Prabhupada!
Out side ISKCON is another story. But Srila Prabhupada did not oder for diksa gurus out side ISKCON either, so those that may do that, are not true disciples nor even followers of Srila Prabhupada, but only offenders.
Much better it is to use our time, energy and finances, to assist the current law cases that are going on, so the ritvik Prabhupadanugas mey get full control of ISKCON and the BBT.
Sincerely,
Mahatma dasa
tim lee
--- On Tue, 12/21/10, mario pineda <serva...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: mario pineda <serva...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 1:48 AM
Hare Krishna. Respects. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
It sure seems to me that for ISKCON there is NO possibility of any diksa guru other than Srila Prabhupada.
[PD: Once again notce, there are no quotes given here that there will be no future pure devotees appearing either in or out of ISKCON over the nezt 10,000 years. Of course to say that pure devotees are not part of ISKCON is -- a really bad understanding of Krishna consciousness. It is also wrong to say that pure devotees are going to be forbidden to give pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins. In sum, there are not quotes given herein or by KK about that issue either.]
This is because the DOM, the last will and testament and the July 9th 1977 letter has already been honored by courts of law in India and the USA.
[PD: The DOM applies to neophytes devotees and not to another pure devotee? A pure devotee has to follow the votes of a GBC under the DOM? Which previous pure devotees had to to that?]
Srila Prabhupada arranged it with his transcendental legal documents in this way. So it's a waste of time and also offensive to Srila Prabhupada (mad elephant offense) to even think of a diksa guru in ISKCON other than Srila Prabhupada!
[PD: Srila Prabhupada said he could make another guru on his order, it is an offense to say he has no potency to give this order, should he chose to do so.]
Out side ISKCON is another story.
[PD: Srila Prabhupada never said pure devotees have to operate outside of ISKCON for the next 10,000 years. A pure devotee is ISKCON, how can we say pure devotees are not ISKCON? So now we are saying, the gopis are not part of ISKCON if one of them appears in the next 10,000 years? This is very silly, the gopis are ISKCON, and if one of them appears they will be ISKCON.]
But Srila Prabhupada did not oder for diksa gurus out side ISKCON either, so those that may do that, are not true disciples nor even followers of Srila Prabhupada, but only offenders.
[PD: Prabhupada gave none of these orders ever, that future pure devotees would be for 10,000 years "operating outside the walls of ISKCON" as KK has stated, where does Srila Prabhupada say these things?]
Much better it is to use our time, energy and finances, to assist the current law cases that are going on, so the ritvik Prabhupadanugas mey get full control of ISKCON and the BBT.
[PD: Much better to cite Srila Prabhupada, he never said that future pure devotees would be operating outside the walls of ISKCON for 10k years? We did not start any of this speculation, unfortunately we now have to clear it up, there are no quotes given anywhere by KK that a future pure devotee has to operate outside ISKCON, and since the gurus are generally gopis level of devotees, KK is saying he is going to kick the gopis out of his institution should they appear, which is -- nuttiness, simply stated. "I am going to kick the gopis out of my building." More nutty, is that KK does not even own one ISKCON building, he could not kick a flea out of anything, much less kick a gopis out of anywhere! "I am going to kick the gopis out of my buldings, but -- I do not own any buildings." This is all KK's whackiness! I am not sure why people keep defending all this speculation? ys pd]
Sincerely,
Mahatma dasa
mark mclaughlin
| PADA wrote: "Thanks, my point exactly, the quotes KK gives generally apply sometimes
to: Neophytes, or maybe ISKCON's leaders, and / or maybe to people like
Kirtanananda, and NOT to another future pure devotee. Agreed. KK said he
had DIRECT QUOTES where Srila Prabhupada described how a future pure
devotee would be dealt with, and he has NEVER PROVIDED THEM. Agreed:
Srila Prabhupada says, a person becomes guru on the order of his guru,
and he thus said he may give such an order in future, "on my order" ok
all agreed. However, KK has misrepresented things by saying there is a
collection of DIRECT QUOTE citations where this potential future pure
devotee was ordered to follow this system, or that system, or the other
system, and / or stay outside the walls of ISKCON as KK even speculated
once, it does not exist. ys pd" Mark's comment: "OK NOW I GET WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY." Obviously if he can't provide the quote, he is just bluffing. My point has been there is already a great misunderstanding about what a "pure" devotee is, and what a Diksa Guru is. Thus we can get sidetracked and have to debate when someone makes some silly statement about the next "self effulgent acarya" or "special rules for pure devotees". Instead if we thoroughly understand these concepts, it is easy to just follow the rules we have already been given with faith they will apply to any situation that arises and any disciple (pure or not). Simultaneously this understanding will allow us to philisophically defend our position at our leisure, instead of constantly being on the defense against bogus fallacious positions put forth by those who hope beyond hope that they can one day replace Srila Prabhupada's function in Iskcon. Hare Krsna |
Bhaktatraveler
From: mario pineda <serva...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 4:48:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
tim lee
Mark's comment: "OK NOW I GET WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY."
Obviously if he can't provide the quote, he is just bluffing.
My point has been there is already a great misunderstanding about what a "pure" devotee is, and what a Diksa Guru is. Thus we can get sidetracked and have to debate when someone makes some silly statement about the next "self effulgent acarya" or "special rules for pure devotees".
[PD: Yes, we have no idea what will occur in the next 10,000 seconds, much less: how many / if any / more pure devotees will / may / might over the next 10,000 years appear, this is all speculation since there are no specific citations on this topic.]
Instead if we thoroughly understand these concepts, it is easy to just follow the rules we have already been given with faith they will apply to any situation that arises and any disciple (pure or not). Simultaneously this understanding will allow us to philisophically defend our position at our leisure, instead of constantly being on the defense against bogus fallacious positions put forth by those who hope beyond hope that they can one day replace Srila Prabhupada's function in Iskcon.
Hare Krsna
[PD: Right, that is what I told KK in 1997, do not speculate like this, lets just follow what we have already, we need to get the proper GBC and ritvik idea going properly, and there is no need to make pretend we are tri-kala-jna 10k years mystic sooth seers, this is all speculation. Of course, as soon as we see a "direct (whisper) quote" like "the poison is going down" then KK wants to work with those guys and make them the next ritviks! This is worse than speculation, its suicidal. ys pd]
Bhaktatraveler
Cc: ange...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 8:47:46 AM
Bhaktatraveler
Cc: jose <ange...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 10:09:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Jack Eskildsen
| I am no expert at all on these debates but I humbly agree with your assesment. Maya has divided and conquered. There is no warrior class to defend the purity of Krsna Consciousness or brahmins as elucidated so expertly by Prabhupada. The warrior class is trained to be the enforcers of the Kali-yuga plunderers, karmi court systems etc. I can't begrudge anyone any particular battle they want or need to fight but unless a system emerges as you explain the whole ship will just glide further and further down to hell it seems. All in my humble opinion only. Not to be taken as authoritative. Hare Krsna |
--- On Tue, 12/21/10, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote: |
|
mark mclaughlin
| Problem is, Purnajana is still equating a "pure devotee" with someone who doesn't follow rules and regulations. He thinks that DVD is mundane and that any position within Iskcon's DVD scheme, including ritvik priest, is a mundane limitation that would artificially repress the liberated nature of a pure devotee. That being a pure devotee equates to necessarily being not only capable of performing a bona-fide Diksa ceremonial initiation, but they must have the option to do so, and call the newly initiated man "his disciple". He contends that such an elevated person would not enter into a situation wherein the rules state that he may only act on behalf of the Initiator Guru of the Asrama. That such a situation would squelch their spontaneous liberated nature. This is very easy to deduce from his repeated written positions on the matter. My reading of our core scriptures suggests that this is an invention in his mind. Furthermore, having factual knowledge that Srila Prabhupada set up the system of Ritvik rules is even more proof that such a system can therefore accomodate the progressive devotional service of any devotee, pure or mixed, who assists Iskcon's Sankirtana movement for the next 9500 years. The key to remember is that Krsna dictates to a pure devotee. The purity is that they do whatever Krsna directs from the heart. So if Krsna never directs a pure devotee to stand up within Iskcon and challenge the ritvik order and demand to take Diksa disciples, then that pure devotee is never limited in his blissful freeedom of expression during his time here. Hare Krsna |
rainer hahn
Not that all pure devotees in Caitanya-lila were diksa-gurus.
Yes, Prabhupada wants all his disciples to become pure devotees but this does not mean pure devotee = automatic appointment to be diksa-guru. KK simply abides by Prabhupada who did not order any of his disciples to be next acarya.
Meanwhile there are so many devotees who became Prabhupada devotees and who are actually outraged that the Prabhupadanugas are fighting like mad, not against anarthas, not against the fact that there are no books to distribute especially outside US, not against demoniac governments installing more and more heavy kali-yuga -- no, they fight against each other.
This is ritvikdiculous, produces a painful impression. Something like soldiers who grapple with each other in the dugout while the enemy is shooting granades. Where is PADA'S management potential?
Bhaktatraveler
From: Jack Eskildsen <deadh...@yahoo.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 11:40:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
From: rainer hahn <raine...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 11:49:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
From: rainer hahn <raine...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 11:49:23 AM
mario pineda
I will respond in caps just to have a distinction.
--- On Tue, 12/21/10, mario pineda <serva...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: mario pineda <serva...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading PaperTo: istag...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 1:48 AM
[PD: Once again notce, there are no quotes given here that there will be no future pure devotees appearing either in or out of ISKCON over the nezt 10,000 years. Of course to say that pure devotees are not part of ISKCON is -- a really bad understanding of Krishna consciousness. It is also wrong to say that pure devotees are going to be forbidden to give pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins. In sum, there are not quotes given herein or by KK about that issue either.]
Hare Krishna. Respects. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
It sure seems to me that for ISKCON there is NO possibility of any diksa guru other than Srila Prabhupada.
PURANJANA DASA PRABHU. ALTHOUGH YOU ARE DOING GOOD SERVICE FOR MANY YEARS, YOU DO HAVE THE TENDENCY TO FOLLOW JUST YOUR OWN MIND. AS FOLLOWERS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA, WE ARE NOT CONCERNED SO MUCH WITH "PURE" DEVOTEES OUTSIDE ISKCON. SRILA PRABHUPADA ESTABLISHED ISKCON FOR US AND HE NEVER ADVISED WE GO OUT OF THE INSTITUTION. PLEASE ALSO CONSIDER THAT THERE IS NO QUOTES STATING THAT THERE WILL BE "PURE DEVOTEES" OR DIKSA GURUS IN OR OUTSIDE ISKCON IN THE FUTURE.
[PD: The DOM applies to neophytes devotees and not to another pure devotee? A pure devotee has to follow the votes of a GBC under the DOM? Which previous pure devotees had to to that?]
This is because the DOM, the last will and testament and the July 9th 1977 letter has already been honored by courts of law in India and the USA.
AS FOLLOWERS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA, MANY OF US ARE NOT VERY CONCERNED ABOUT ANOTHER DIKSA GURU THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA NEVER MENTIONED FOR EITHER INSIDE OR OUTSIDE ISKCON. AND YES, A PURE DISCIPLE IS OBLIGED TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS OF HIS GURU. THIS IS WHY SRILA PRABHUPADA FORMED THE GBC, BECAUSE IT WAS AN ORDER FROM SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SWAMI MAHARAJA. I AM SURE YOU HAVE HEARD, ONE MUST FOLLOW THE ORDERS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.
[PD: Srila Prabhupada said he could make another guru on his order, it is an offense to say he has no potency to give this order, should he chose to do so.]
Srila Prabhupada arranged it with his transcendental legal documents in this way. So it's a waste of time and also offensive to Srila Prabhupada (mad elephant offense) to even think of a diksa guru in ISKCON other than Srila Prabhupada!
SRILA PRABHUPADA SAID THAT WHEN HE ORDERS THERE MAY BE OTHER GURUS, BUT FOR NOW, THERE IS NO SUCH AN ORDER, SO WHY SPECULATE ON IT? WE SHOULD FOCUS ON WHAT HE ORDERED FOR SURE, DON'T YOU THINK? THAT IS THE RITVIK SYSTEM. ALSO AS I SAID BEFORE, THE LEGAL TRANSCENDENTAL DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN HONORED BY COURTS IN INDIA AND THE USA, DO NOT ALLOW FOR ANY OTHER DIKSA GURUS INSIDE ISKCON. ALSO AND AGAIN, YOUR IMAGINATION HAS TAKEN OVER WHEN YOU SAID IT IS AN OFFENSE TO SAY THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS NO POTENCY TO GIVE AN ORDER FOR GURUS, BECAUSE I DID NOT SAY THIS, YOU JUST IMAGINED I DID. NOW, MAYBE YOU CAN EXPLAIN HOW SRILA PRABHUPADA MAY GIVE AN ORDER FOR DIKSA GURUS AND WHEN. MAYBE IN A DREAM? :) MOST DEVOTEES I KNOW WOULD JUST SAY., OK, DREAM ON. IT IS MOST UNLIKELY THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA WOULD GIVE SUCH AN ORDER SINCE HIS FOLLOWERS ARE PIZZA DELIVERY MEN SERVING MOTHER COW FOR MONEY TYPES, OR ARE AFTER ILLICIT SEX LIFE WITH MEN, WOMEN AND OR CHILDREN, OR ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT CHANT, DO NOT FOLLOW THE OTHER PRINCIPLES, DO NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND THE PHILOSOPHY, THE HISTORY NOR WHO IS WHO IN THE MOVEMENT, ETC. IN ADDITION ANY DREAM TYPE OF ORDER, WOULD BE A CONTRADICTION AND WOLD NOT FLY IN ISKCON DUE TO THE LEGAL DOCUMENTS SRILA PRABHUPADA SIGNED ON THE ISSUE. WHO IS GOING TO CONVINCE THE DEVOTEES AND A COURT OF LAW ABOUT SUCH A DREAM?
[PD: Srila Prabhupada never said pure devotees have to operate outside of ISKCON for the next 10,000 years. A pure devotee is ISKCON, how can we say pure devotees are not ISKCON? So now we are saying, the gopis are not part of ISKCON if one of them appears in the next 10,000 years? This is very silly, the gopis are ISKCON, and if one of them appears they will be ISKCON.]
Out side ISKCON is another story.
AGAIN, THEY WOULD HAVE TO CONVINCE THE DEVOTEES AND THE COURTS ABOUT A DREAM TYPE OF "ORDER." I DON'T THINK THIS WILL EVER HAPPEN AS MUCH AS YOU MAY TRY PURANJANA DASA. SO IT'S A REAL UPHILL LOOSING BATTLE YOUR PROPOSITION. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS I WONDER.
[PD: Prabhupada gave none of these orders ever, that future pure devotees would be for 10,000 years "operating outside the walls of ISKCON" as KK has stated, where does Srila Prabhupada say these things?]
But Srila Prabhupada did not oder for diksa gurus out side ISKCON either, so those that may do that, are not true disciples nor even followers of Srila Prabhupada, but only offenders.
MOST RITVIK DEVOTEES KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA NEVER TALKED ABOUT FUTURE PURE DEVOTEES FOR EITHER IN OR OUTSIDE ISKCON. SO WHAT PURE DEVOTEES ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? SRIAL PRABHUPADA TALKED TO YOU OR GAVE YOU INFORMATION IN A DREAM ABOUT THIS TO YOU? PLEASE, YOU OR MADHUDVISA DASA SHOULD SHOW ANY QUOTES THAT MAY HAVE ESCAPED US FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA REGARDING FUTURE DIKSA GURUS OTHER THAN HIMSELF.
Much better it is to use our time, energy and finances, to assist the current law cases that are going on, so the ritvik Prabhupadanugas mey get full control of ISKCON and the BBT.
[PD: Much better to cite Srila Prabhupada, he never said that future pure devotees would be operating outside the walls of ISKCON for 10k years? We did not start any of this speculation, unfortunately we now have to clear it up, there are no quotes given anywhere by KK that a future pure devotee has to operate outside ISKCON, and since the gurus are generally gopis level of devotees, KK is saying he is going to kick the gopis out of his institution should they appear, which is -- nuttiness, simply stated. "I am going to kick the gopis out of my building." More nutty, is that KK does not even own one ISKCON building, he could not kick a flea out of anything, much less kick a gopis out of anywhere! "I am going to kick the gopis out of my buldings, but -- I do not own any buildings." This is all KK's whackiness! I am not sure why people keep defending all this speculation? ys pd]
AGAIN. WE HAVE CITED SRILA PRABHUPADAS LEGAL TRANSCENDENTAL DOCUMENTS ON THE ISSUE. THE DOM, THE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT AND THE JULY 9HT 1977 LETTER. WHY YOU SAY THAT KK AND OTHERS HAVE NOT CITED THESE SOLID SIGNED ORDERS FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA? HOW THEN CAN YOU SAY WE ARE SPECULATING? AS I SAID EARLIER, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF YOU HAVE ORDERS FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN OR UNDERSTOOD, AND YOU CAN PRESENT HEM WEATHER THEY ARE IN WRITING OR IN DREAM FROM, OR THE LIKE, THEN PRESENT THEM TO US FOR ANALYSIS. UNTIL THEN, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND IT IS YOU NOT US THAT IS SPECULATING. SO WHEN AND WHERE AND TO WHOM DID SRILA PRABHUPADA DISCUSSED ABOUT THE "FUTURE PURE DEVOTEES" YOU KEEP MENTIONING? TO HAVE A NICE SERIOUS DISCUSSION, PLEASE QUOTE SRILA PRABHUPADA ON FUTURE PURE DEVOTEES AS YOU CLAIM HE SPOKE, AND OR EXPLAIN ABOUT SOME OTHER ORDER OR EXPLANATION ABOUT "FUTURE PURE DEVOTEES" IN THE FORM OF A DREAM OR DREAMS THAT YOU MAY HAVE GOTTEN OR ANYONE ELSE SUCH AS MADHUDHVISA DASA WHO ALSO SHARES YOUR VIEWS.
I THINK YOU OWE THIS CITING FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA OR EVIDENCE FOR ANY COMMON SENSE RITVIK PRABHUPADANUGA TO TAKE YOUR PROMOTION OF "FUTURE PURE DEVOTEES" OR DIKSA GURUS SERIOUSLY. WE REALLY WONDER WHY YOU AND OTHERS LIKE MADHUDVISA DASA CONTINUE TO ARDENTLY PROMOTE THIS IDEA OF FUTURE "DIKSA GURUS," WITH NO CITING FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA OR EXPLANATIONS ABOUT POSSIBLE DREAMS YOU ARE HAVING.
AS I SAID ON THE PHONE TO YOU DEAR GOD BROTHER, THERE ARE KEY LEGAL CASES GOING ON RIGHT NOW THAT CAN MAKE IT SO THE WHOLE OF ISKCON AND THE BBT BE GIVEN BACK TO SRILA PRABHUPADA. SO I THINK IT'S MUCH BETTER NOW, THAT WE GIVE UP FOR THE TIME BEING DISCUSSING ABOUT "FUTURE PURE DEVOTEES" OR "DIKSA GURUS," WITH NO CITING OR QUOTING OR EXPLANATION OF DREAM "ORDERS" OR THE LIKE FROM YOUR SIDE, AND FOCUS ON DOING WHATEVER WE CAN TO ASSIST THE LEGAL CASES, SO ISKCON AND THE BBT MAY BE GIVEN BACK TO SRILA PRABHUPADA. I THINK THIS IS A PRACTICAL THING YOU AND MADHUDVISA DASA CAN DO, SINCE SRILA PRABHUPADA SAID THAT WE WILL SHOW OUR LOVE FOR HIM TO THE DEGREE THAT WE HAVE A COOPERATIVE SPIRIT AND SERVICE ATTITUDE AMONG OURSELVES.
SO WHY NOT STATE HERE NOW THAT YOU WILL COOPERATE AND HAVE A SERVICE ATTITUDE IN THE LEGAL CASE WITH YOUR GOD BROTHERS? YOU DID SAY ON THE PHONE THAT THIS YOU WOULD DO, BUT IT APPEARS UNFORTUNATELY THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND. WILL YOU DROP FOR NOW THE "FUTURE PURE DEVOTEES" AS YOU MENTION IT AND GET TOTALLY BEHIND HELPING THE LEGAL EFFORT AS YOU SAID YOU WOLD ON THE PHONE TO ME? SRIAL PRABHUPADA AND ALL HIS SINCERE FOLLOWERS REALLY NEED AT THIS TIME FOR YOU TO DO THIS. THNAKS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION DISCUSSION ON THIS REQUEST.
SINCERELY,
MAHATMA DASA
Sincerely,
Mahatma dasa
tim lee
--- On Tue, 12/21/10, mario pineda <serva...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hare Krishna Puranjana dasa prabhu. Respects. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 1:48 AM
PURANJANA DASA PRABHU. ALTHOUGH YOU ARE DOING GOOD SERVICE FOR MANY YEARS, YOU DO HAVE THE TENDENCY TO FOLLOW JUST YOUR OWN MIND. AS FOLLOWERS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA, WE ARE NOT CONCERNED SO MUCH WITH "PURE" DEVOTEES OUTSIDE ISKCON.
[PD: Neither am I, Krishna Kanta is the one who started this whole idea that future pure devotees would have to operate outside ISKCON, therefore: he is an idiot, this was never stated by Srila Prabhupada.]
SRILA PRABHUPADA ESTABLISHED ISKCON FOR US AND HE NEVER ADVISED WE GO OUT OF THE INSTITUTION.
[PD: Right so you agree that Krishna Kanta is foolish for saying a future pure devotee would have to operate outside.]
PLEASE ALSO CONSIDER THAT THERE IS NO QUOTES STATING THAT THERE WILL BE "PURE DEVOTEES" OR DIKSA GURUS IN OR OUTSIDE ISKCON IN THE FUTURE.
[PD: Right, so Krishna Kanta made all this up, proving that he is bogus.]
AS FOLLOWERS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA, MANY OF US ARE NOT VERY CONCERNED ABOUT ANOTHER DIKSA GURU THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA NEVER MENTIONED FOR EITHER INSIDE OR OUTSIDE ISKCON.
[PD: Again, so you are fully agreeing with me, Krishna Katna was totally foolish to bring up this topic of future pure devotees, and where they would operate and so on, you are agreeing with me, KK is a fool for making pretend there are direct quotes on a topic of 10k years of what kind of acharyas will or will not appear, when that WAS NEVER DISCUSSED. Its speculation.]
AND YES, A PURE DISCIPLE IS OBLIGED TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS OF HIS GURU. THIS IS WHY SRILA PRABHUPADA FORMED THE GBC, BECAUSE IT WAS AN ORDER FROM SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SWAMI MAHARAJA. I AM SURE YOU HAVE HEARD, ONE MUST FOLLOW THE ORDERS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.
[PD: And KK is not doing that, he says we have to concoct statements that future pure devotees will operate here, or there, in this building, but not in that building, or somewhere else, thinking he is the messiah of all the messiahs, he is the king of the acharyas, and ALL this is not authorized, so you are agreeing with me again!]
SRILA PRABHUPADA SAID THAT WHEN HE ORDERS THERE MAY BE OTHER GURUS, BUT FOR NOW, THERE IS NO SUCH AN ORDER, SO WHY SPECULATE ON IT?
[PD: I never speculated on it, this was mentioned by Krishna Kanta, so he created this whole "future acharyas for 10k years idea" and we had to respond, and we are.]
WE SHOULD FOCUS ON WHAT HE ORDERED FOR SURE, DON'T YOU THINK? THAT IS THE RITVIK SYSTEM. ALSO AS I SAID BEFORE, THE LEGAL TRANSCENDENTAL DOCUMENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN HONORED BY COURTS IN INDIA AND THE USA, DO NOT ALLOW FOR ANY OTHER DIKSA GURUS INSIDE ISKCON. ALSO AND AGAIN, YOUR IMAGINATION HAS TAKEN OVER WHEN YOU SAID IT IS AN OFFENSE TO SAY THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS NO POTENCY TO GIVE AN ORDER FOR GURUS, BECAUSE I DID NOT SAY THIS, YOU JUST IMAGINED I DID.
[PD: Krishna Kanta says that, he says there will be no more diksha gurus in ISKCON for the next 10k years, he speculated this, I never said anything like this? Again, you are agreeing with ME. So to sum, if you are agreeing with me, what Krishna Katna has done by opening this future pure devotees for 10k years idea is to waste everyone's time, i agree. He is an idiot and a liar since he told me there are direct quotes to back up all this speculation, and you agree, he lied when he said that, we agree Mahatma dasa! ys pd]
Bhaktatraveler
Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 7:51:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
Different personalities become beautiful by possessing different qualities. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that the cuckoo bird, although very black, is beautiful because of its sweet voice. Similarly, a woman becomes beautiful by her chastity and faithfulness to her husband, and an ugly person becomes beautiful when he becomes a learned scholar. In the same way, brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras become beautiful by their qualities. Brāhmaṇas are beautiful when they are forgiving, kṣatriyas when they are heroic and never retreat from fighting, vaiśyas when they enrich cultural activities and protect cows, and śūdras when they are faithful in the discharge of duties pleasing to their masters. Thus everyone becomes beautiful by his special qualities. And the special quality of the brāhmaṇa, as described here, is forgiveness.
From: tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com>
To: mario pineda <serva...@gmail.com>
Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 7:51:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Mukunda dasa
and Puranjana dasa from P.A.D.A. is that Srila Prabhupada may order
one of us to be diksa guru when we are qualified.
Madhudvisa dasa: For an honest reader of Srila Prabhupada's books it
is impossible to come to any other conclusion than Srila Prabhupada
desired his disciples to become qualified spiritual masters and accept
disciples....However the ritviks DO NOT say Srila Prabhupada's
disciples can not become gurus at all. How could they say that? They
simply say Srila Prabhupada established a ritvik initiation system for
ISKCON and if Srila Prabhupada's disciples want to accept their own
disciples they should do it in their own preaching organization
outside ISKCON.
Note: In regards to Madhudvisa's claim that he may accept disciples
outside of ISKCON in his own preaching organization, he should note
the following:
TRANSLATION: Sri Uddhava said: You may take lessons from the great
learned sage Maitreya, who is nearby and who is worshipable for
reception of transcendental knowledge. He was directly instructed by
the Personality of Godhead while He was about to quit this mortal
world.
PURPORT: Although one may be well versed in the transcendental
science, one should be careful about the offense of maryada-
vyatikrama, or impertinently surpassing a greater personality.
According to scriptural injunction one should be very careful of
transgressing the law of maryada-vyatikrama because by so doing one
loses his duration of life, his opulence, fame and piety and the
blessings of all the world. To be well versed in the transcendental
science necessitates awareness of the techniques of spiritual science.
Uddhava, being well aware of all these technicalities of
transcendental science, advised Vidura to approach Maitreya Rsi to
receive transcendental knowledge. Vidura wanted to accept Uddhava as
his spiritual master, but Uddhava did not accept the post because
Vidura was as old as Uddhava's father and therefore Uddhava could not
accept him as his disciple, especially when Maitreya was present
nearby. The rule is that in the presence of a higher personality one
should not be very eager to impart instructions, even if one is
competent and well versed. So Uddhava decided to send an elderly
person like Vidura to Maitreya, another elderly person, but he was
well versed also because he was directly instructed by the Lord while
He was about to quit this mortal world. Since both Uddhava and
Maitreya were directly instructed by the Lord, both had the authority
to become the spiritual master of Vidura or anyone else, but Maitreya,
being elderly, had the first claim to becoming the spiritual master,
especially for Vidura, who was much older than Uddhava. One should not
be eager to become a spiritual master cheaply for the sake of profit
and fame, but should become a spiritual master only for the service of
the Lord. The Lord never tolerates the impertinence of maryada-
vyatikrama. One should never pass over the honor due to an elderly
spiritual master in the interests of one's own personal gain and fame.
Impertinence on the part of the pseudo spiritual master is very risky
to progressive spiritual realization.
(S.B. 3.4.26)
Note: So if Madhudvisa was a pure devotee he would not impertinently
surpass a greater personality like Srila Prabhupada who would be
present nearby, everywhere in the universe initiating everyone in the
form of his original books.
If Madhudvisa was actually pure in heart, Krishna would order him to
bring all souls to Srila Prabhupada so they could accept him as Guru.
In regards to the various quotes in which Srila Prabhupada says his
disciples should become guru, the following article from the first
printing [1993] of ALL OF US SHOULD HEAR PRABHUPADA clears this up.
"The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru"
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru,
and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching
and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually
come to this platform. This I want.
(SPL to Madhudvisa Swami, 4th August, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada says the devotees in the G.B.C. should all become the
instructor gurus. The words should reveal that at that time nobody was
actually on this platform. Srila Prabhupada says "you must actually
come to this platform. This I want."
There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the
liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service,
and the other is he who invokes the disciple's spiritual consciousness
by means of relevant instructions.
(CC Adi, 1.47 )
Here Srila Prabhupada describes the two kinds of instructor gurus. The
second describes a person who gives instructions based on the revealed
scriptures. The first describes the siksa guru Srila Prabhupada wants
us all to become. On this platform we will be fully qualified to
preach the glories of the Lord.
So this society is attempting to create a society of devotees all over
the world, without any discrimination of caste, creed, colour. One
must be a devotee of Krsna. Yei krsna tattva vettha sei guru haya. One
must know the science of Krsna. Then he can preach to others. Sei guru
haya. That is our purpose.
(N.O.D. Lec. 26th October, 1972)
Srila Prabhupada says that his society is trying to create devotees
who are qualified to know the science of Krsna. Then they can preach
to others.
This is complete liberated stage. In the previous verse it has been
spoken, bhagavat-tattva-vijnanam mukta-sangasya jayate. The science of
God, bhagavat-tattva, the science of Absolute Truth, becomes manifest
to the liberated soul. We find sometimes that one man is posing to
have very much advanced in spiritual understanding or a great devotee,
but mukta-sanga, he's not mukta-sanga,
(S.B. Lecture, Vrndavana, 1st November, 1972.)
Again confirmation of the qualifications of the siksa guru we all have
to become. Therefore even when many devotee’s have reached such an
advanced platform of devotional service, [in future lifes] the
position will remain.
"I AM THE INITIATOR GURU, AND YOU SHOULD BE THE INSTRUCTOR GURU BY
TEACHING AND DOING WHAT I’M DOING."
Mukunda dasa
The basic argument presented by the envious dressed as devotees is
that because Srila Prabhupada has physically departed therefore we
need a successor to continue the disciplic succession. This argument
is totally bogus and is not at all supported by the Vedic literature.
TRANSLATION: This supreme science was thus received through the chain
of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that
way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore
the science as it is appears to be lost.
PURPORT: It is clearly stated that the Gita was especially meant for
the saintly kings because they were to execute its purpose in ruling
over the citizens. Certainly Bhagavad-gita was never meant for the
demonic persons, who would dissipate its value for no one's benefit
and would devise all types of interpretations according to personal
whims. As soon as the original purpose was scattered by the motives of
the unscrupulous commentators, there arose the need to reestablish the
disciplic succession. Five thousand years ago it was detected by the
Lord Himself that the disciplic succession was broken, and therefore
He declared that the purpose of the Gita appeared to be lost. In the
same way, at the present moment also there are so many editions of the
Gita (especially in English), but almost all of them are not according
to authorized disciplic succession. There are innumerable
interpretations rendered by different mundane scholars, but almost all
of them do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna,
although they make a good business on the words of Sri Krsna. This
spirit is demonic, because demons do not believe in God but simply
enjoy the property of the Supreme. Since there is a great need of an
edition of the Gita in English, as it is received by the parampara
(disciplic succession) system, an attempt is made herewith to fulfill
this great want. Bhagavad-gita--accepted as it is--is a great boon to
humanity; but if it is accepted as a treatise of philosophical
speculations, it is simply a waste of time.
[Srila Prabhupada from Bhagavad-gita As It Is 4.2]
Note: So when the purpose of the Bhagavad-gita is scattered or lost by
the motives of unscrupulous commentators then there is a need to
reestablish the disciplic succession. If the knowledge from the
current acarya Srila Prabhupada is still present in human society in
the form of the original Bhagavad-gita As It Is, then where is the
need for the Lord to send another spiritual master or successor to
reestablish it? THIS IS THE ESSENTIAL POINT!!!
Rest assured the demons understand to some degree that Prabhupada is
very much present in the form of his original books as the current
link in disciplic succession, delivering the people of the world back
home back to Godhead. That is why they work so determinedly to change
these books and make Prabhupada's message lost to the world!
As soon as any of the disciples in the succession distort the
knowledge, then it is lost. That is being explained. Sa kalena mahata.
The time is very powerful. It changes. That is the... Time means it
changes, kills the original position. You have got experience. You
purchase one anything. It is very fresh, new. But time will kill it.
It will become shabby. It will be useless at a time, in due course of
time. So time is fighting. This material time, it is called kala. Kala
means death. Or kala means the black snake. So black snake destroys.
As soon as touches anything, it is destroyed. Similarly, kala... This
kala is also another form of Krsna. So kalena mahata. Therefore it is
called mahata. It is very powerful. It is not ordinary thing. Mahata.
Its business is to destroy. Sa kalena iha nasta. So by due course of
time... Because how the kala can destroy? As soon as kala sees that
you are distorting, then it will be lost. So don't try to understand
Bhagavad-gita from persons who are under the influence of kala--past,
present, future. Don't try to understand Bhagavad-gita from so-called
rascal philosophers, commentators, and... They will write Bhagavad-
gita in a distorted way. Somebody will say, "There was no Krsna. There
was no Mahabharata." Somebody says, "Krsna stressed on this point,"
"Krsna stressed on that point." Somebody will say, "Krsna stressed on
karma, karma-kanda." Somebody will say on jnana, and somebody will say
yoga. There are so many editions of Bhagavad-gita.
[Srila Prabhupada from a Bhagavad-gita 4.2, Bombay, March 22, 1974]
Note: Prabhupada's knowledge will not be lost to the world that can be
clearly understood by reading the following articles. Article 1 -
Article 2
My success is always there.
Hanuman: One thing he's saying, this gentleman, and I would like to
know, is your successor named or your successor will...
Prabhupada: My success is always there. Yes. Just like the sun is
there always. It may come before your vision or not. The sun is there.
But if you are fortunate, you come before the sun. Otherwise you
remain in darkness. Sun is open to everyone. Our Krsna consciousness
movement--Krsna is open to everyone. But if you are fortunate, you
come to the light. If you are unfortunate, do not. That is your
choice.
[Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other
Guests and Disciples, February 12, 1975, Mexico]
I will never die!
Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?
Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!
Devotee’s: Jaya! Haribol!
Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever for my books and you will
utilise.
[Interview, Berkley, 1975]
Here Srila Prabhupada is asked a question about his successor. Let us
examine Srila Prabhupada’s minimum words, maximum solution answer. The
question has two key words [1] succeed and [2] die. Srila Prabhupada
answers point [2] with "I will never die" and how is that "I will live
forever for my books" and point [1] is answered with "and you will
utilise". The word utilise is also described in the dictionary as,
"use for a purpose". Thus Srila Prabhupada instructs us to use his
books for the purpose of continuing the disciplic succession, by
distributing them and thus giving the fallen souls of the world the
opportunity of receiving his shelter as diksa guru.
The ritvik system should continue to formalise such mass Harinama
diksa. Such a system is perfectly harmonious with Srila Prabhupadas
loud chanting and part of his transcendental plan to deliver the
world.
Let us not be small minded and say that the ritvik system continuing
in the acaryas physical absence is unprecedented and therefore not
bona-fide. It must be unprecedented (to our limited perceptions) or
else how can it complement the unprecedented achievements of His
Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Never before has an
acarya translated so many transcendental literature’s into all the
languages of the world and distributed such knowledge so mercifully
and indiscriminately, making himself available as the eternal
perceptor to the fallen souls. Srila Prabhupada was specifically
chosen to deliver the whole world and thus fulfil the prediction of
the Lord and the previous acaryas.
Mukunda dasa
Dear Prabhu's please accept my humble obeisance's.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
In the following article i shall present various quotes from Srila
Prabhupada which prove he is the only diksa [initiating] guru for the
International Society for Krishna Consciousness [I.S.K.CON.] for it's
duration of ten thousand years.
This movement, as I have now began with my disciples....
It will increase. That is also stated, that for ten thousand
years Krsna consciousness movement will increase.
Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples,
European, American boys, they're... They are not very satisfied, the
present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don't want.
Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty
on behalf of Krsna to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we
are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase.
That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Krsna consciousness
movement will increase. Yes.
Syamasundara: Ten thousand years.
Prabhupada: Within ten thousand years, if they become Krsna conscious,
then life is successful. After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture
of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not
small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten
thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's
duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-
seven thousand.
[S.P. Room Conversation, July 22, 1973, London]
This movement will go for ten thousand
years without any impediment.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, when I first came to this, to your
movement, the first thing I was told is that Lord Caitanya's movement
in this age will, like a moon, rise for ten thousand years. I was told
that number, ten thousand years. Is that true?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Ramesvara: And then after that, they will...
Prabhupada: This movement will go for ten thousand years without any
impediment.
Ramesvara: So that means increasing, because it's the nature of the
spiritual energy.
Prabhupada: It increases; you should take this opportunity. You work
sincerely; it will increase, it will increase.
Ramesvara: Ten thousand years, there is a good opportunity to...
Prabhupada: Many fallen souls will be delivered back to home, back to
Godhead.
[S.P. Morning Walk, June 5, 1976, Los Angeles]
It will never stop. At least for
ten thousand years it will go on.
But you cannot expect that cent percent people will come; that is not
possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people come to this, then
it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what
percentage we have got? Still they have made some impression, the Hare
Krsna movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating,
learned circle. Takes some time, but if we stick to our principles and
do not make any compromise and push on--in this way, I have given you
instruction, it will never stop; it will go on. It will never stop. At
least for ten thousand years it will go on.
[S.P. Conversation in Airport and Car June 21, 1976, Toronto]
Note: From these quotes we can clearly understand that I.S.K.CON. will
go on for ten thousand years without any impediment.
In the following quotes Srila Prabhupada appears to warn his disciples
that this depends on them not changing his books and thus
contaminating the pure knowledge.
As soon as you change it,
then the potency of the movement is lost.
Prabhupada: History, it is not a new movement. You have seen this
book. You read that book thoroughly. You will get full knowledge. This
movement is very, very old and standard. It is never changed. As soon
as you change it, then the potency of the movement is lost.
Faill: Sorry, what was that?
Prabhupada: Potency. Just like electricity. There is standard
regulation: "This is negative; this is positive. You must act like
this. You must fix like..." You cannot do whimsically: "No, why not
this way? Why not that way?" Then it is lost. Then there will be no
electricity. Similarly, there is standard method how to understand
this philosophy, how to get it, I mean to say, what is called,
authoritatively. Then it will act.
(S.P.Room Conversation with Bill Faill (reporter)October 8, 1975,
Durban)
If you go on as you are doing now,
then it will go on. But if you stop...
Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada, if the knowledge was handed down by the
saintly kings, evam parampara-praptam, how is it that the knowledge
was lost?
Prabhupada: When it was not handed down. Simply understood by
speculation. Or if it is not handed down as it is. They might have
made some changes.Or they did not hand it down. Suppose I handed it
down to you, but if you do not do that, then it is lost. Now the Krsna
consciousness movement is going on in my presence. Now after my
deparature, if you do not do this, then it is lost. If you go on as
you are doing now, then it will go on. But if you stop... (end)
( S.P.Room Conversation with Carol Cameron May 9, 1975, Perth)
Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, you said yesterday, or a few days ago,
that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...
Prabhupada: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take
this opportunity.
Ramesvara: So after ten years we have gotten so many devotees and so
many houses, so I can't imagine how big this movement will be after
ten thousand years.
Prabhupada: Yes. You'll get the government.
[S.P. Morning Walk, June 11, 1976, Los Angeles]
Note: In the following quotes we will clearly see that Srila
Prabhupada's mission of delivering all the fallen souls through his
transcendental books will in fact not be checked, because Lord
Caitanya will not allow it!
Thus we can see Prabhupada's warning to his disciples not to change
his books was for their protection, not for the protection of the
mission. If they go on printing and distributing the original books
thus keeping Srila Prabhupada available as the Diksa Guru then their
lives will be glorified for this service. If they try to kill Guru and
become guru by changing his books, then their advancement will be
checked or as Prabhupada would say "Again become mouse"
The brainwash books are already there.
Even if they stop externally, internally it will go on.
They are now feeling the weight of this movement. Formerly they
thought these people come and go, but now they see we are staying. Now
we have set fire. It will go on, it cannot be stopped. You can bring
big, big fire brigades but the fire will act. The brainwash books are
already there. Even if they stop externally, internally it will go on.
Our first class campaign is book distribution. Go house to house. The
real fighting is now. Krsna will give you all protection. So, chant
Hare Krsna and fight.
(S.P. Letter to: Tamala Krsna, Vrindaban 30 October, 1976)
Books will always remain
You have taken the right view of the importance of my books. Books
will always remain. That was the view of my Guru Maharaja, and I also
have taken it. Therefore I started my movement with my books. And we
shall be able to maintain everything with the sales of the books. The
temples will be maintained by the book sales, and if there are no more
temples, then the books shall remain.
(S.P.Letter to: Hamsaduta:New Delhi 8 November, 1973)
No, there is nothing that can stop the Sankirtana
Movement because it is the will of God
Himself, Lord Caitanya
You have asked about whether nuclear devastation on this planet would
effect the Sankirtana Movement. No, there is nothing that can stop the
Sankirtana Movement because it is the will of God Himself, Lord
Caitanya, that His Holy Name be heard in every town and village.
[S.P.L to Makhanlal, Mayapur, 22nd June, 1973]
But one who is pure devotee,
his business cannot be stopped.
It cannot be checked. There may be so many hindrances. But one who is
pure devotee, his business cannot be stopped.
(S.B. Lecture 1.2.6. Calcutta. Feb 26th, 1974)
Anyone who is ordered by the Lord to perform some action in this
material world, especially preaching His glories, cannot be
counteracted by anyone
Similarly, anyone who is ordered by the Lord to perform some action in
this material world, especially preaching His glories, cannot be
counteracted by anyone; the will of the Lord is executed under all
circumstances.
(S.B. 3.16.36)
The Krishna consciousness movement, in continuity of that same motion,
is now spreading all over the world, and in this way it will gradually
spread all over the universe.
Similarly, since the sankirtana movement was first set in motion five
hundred years ago by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's desire that it spread
all over the universe, the Krishna consciousness movement, in
continuity of that same motion, is now spreading all over the world,
and in this way it will gradually spread all over the universe. With
the spread of the Krishna consciousness movement, everyone will merge
in an ocean of love of Krishna.(C.C. Adi 13.32)
Note: In this last quote we get to see the true extent of how far
Srila Prabhupada's I.S.K.CON. will spread!
Therefore i have established that Srila Prabhupada's mission, which is
based on his original books WILL LAST TEN THOUSAND YEARS AND SPREAD
ALL OVER THE UNIVERSE -- HIS BOOKS WILL BE THE UNIVERSAL LAW BOOKS FOR
10,000 YEARS!!!
If any doubts are entering your minds just remember the opening slokas
of Srimad Bhagavatam.
ALL GLORIES TO THE BEAUTIFUL BHAGAVATAM that has emanated from the
lotus lips of Srila Prabhupada and has thus become even more tasteful,
although it's nectarean juice was already relishable for all,
including liberated souls.
Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura has sung that the devotees of Lord
Caitanya are so powerful that each
one of them can deliver a universe.
The Ganges water is celebrated as being able to eradicate all kinds of
sinful reactions. In other words, when a person takes his bath in the
Ganges, he becomes freed from all life's contaminations. The Ganges
water is celebrated in this way because it emanates from the lotus
feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Similarly, those who are
directly in touch with the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of
Godhead and who are absorbed in the chanting of His glories are freed
from all material contamination. Such unalloyed devotees are able to
show mercy to the common conditioned soul. Srila Vrndavana dasa
Thakura has sung that the devotees of Lord Caitanya are so powerful
that each one of them can deliver a universe. In other words, it is
the business of devotees to preach the glories of the Lord and deliver
all conditioned souls to the platform of suddha-sattva, pure goodness.
[Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.58]
Anyone who attempts to serve Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu sincerely by
following in His footsteps and following
the instructions of the acaryas will successfully
be able to preach the holy names of the Hare
Krsna maha-mantra all over the universe.
TRANSLATION: Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His associates of the
Panca-tattva distributed the holy name of the Lord to invoke love of
Godhead throughout the universe, and thus the entire universe was
thankful.
PURPORT: Here it is said that Lord Caitanya made the entire universe
thankful to Him for propagating the sankirtana movement with His
associates. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu has already sanctified the entire
universe by His presence five hundred years ago, and therefore anyone
who attempts to serve Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu sincerely by following
in His footsteps and following the instructions of the acaryas will
successfully be able to preach the holy names of the Hare Krsna maha-
mantra all over the universe.
[C.C. Adi-lila 7.163]
Note: The above quotes prove without doubt that Srila Prabhupada will
successfully be able to preach the holy names of the Hare Krsna maha-
mantra all over the universe for 10,000 years through his
transcendental books.
SRILA PRABHUPADA WILL DELIVER THE WHOLE UNIVERSE
BECAUSE HE IS THE JAGAT GURU.
YES, I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER
OF THIS INSTITUTION,
AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY'RE SUPPOSED
TO BE MY DISCIPLES.
"They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and
they are initiated by me spiritually."
Interviewer: Now I just want to read one section here. I think you'll
be able to... "The International Society for Krishna Consciousness
began when Swami Bhaktivedanta arrived from India with $2 on his
person, a metal suitcase full of ancient-looking books and a cotton
cloth robe, colored yellow, as a sign of the renounced order of life.
In India, men of his order are completely dedicated to propagating the
spiritual life of a mendicant wanderer. He had wandered across the sea
upon the order issued to him by his guru who told him he should
prepare to go to America to teach the principles taught in the
Bhagavad-gita and to translate the sixty volumes of the Srimad-
Bhagavatam into English." Now, are you a guru?
Prabhupada: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and
all the members of the society, they're supposed to be my disciples.
They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and
they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual
master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
(S.P. Radio Interview March 12, 1968, San Francisco)
Note: All the members of ISKCON [10,000 year transcendental preaching
mission] they're supposed to be Srila Prabhupada's disciples. They
follow his rules and regulations given in his lawbooks (mainly 16
rounds 4 regs.) and are thus initiated by him spiritually. To
facilitate his disciples receiving spiritual names he established a
ritvik system.
IF THERE IS ACTUALLY ASSOCIATION OF SPIRITUALLY SELF REALIZED PERSON,
HE WILL GIVE YOU SOME PROCESS OF SPIRITUAL ACTIVITIES. THAT IS CALLED
BHAJANA-KRIYA
And if there is actually association of spiritually self-realized
person, then he will give you some process of spiritual activities.
That is called bhajana-kriya. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah atha
bhajana-kriya tato anartha-nivrttih syat. And as you are more and more
engaged in spiritual activities, so, proportionately, your material
activities and affection for material activities will diminish.
Counteraction. When you engage in the spiritual activities, your
material activities diminishes.
(B.G. Lecture, 2.58-59, New York, 7th April, 1966)
Note: How Srila Prabhupada's association can be had is described as
follows:
So we should associate by the vibration, and not by the physical
presence. That is real association. Sabdad anavrtti. By sound. Just
like we are touching Krsna immediately by sound. Sound vibration. So
we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or
of the spiritual master. Then we'll feel happy and no separation.
(S.P. Lecture, 18/8/68,Montreal.)
Note: So we should associate with Srila Prabhupada's by his vibration
that is real association. His books are also his vibration, this is
confirmed as follows:
Regarding Sankirtana and book distribution, book distribution is also
chanting. Anyone who reads the books that is also chanting and
hearing. Why distinguish between chanting and book distribution? These
books I have recorded and chanted, and they are transcribed. It is
spoken kirtanas. So book distribution is also chanting. These are not
ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is
hearing. Book distribution must not be neglected.
(S.P.L. to Rupanuga dasa, 19th October, 1974)
Note: Anyone who reads Srila Prabhupada's books is associating with
Srila Prabhupada, this fact is accepted by everyone. So Srila
Prabhupada says "And if there is actually association of spiritually
self-realized person, then he will give you some process of spiritual
activities. That is called bhajana-kriya."
This is confirmed again by the following quote:
"And if you associate with sadhu, then bhajana-kriya."
And if you associate with sadhu, then bhajana-kriya. If we... Just
like so many thousands of Europeans, Americans, they have joined us on
account of sadhu-sanga. First of all they come in the temple and hear
for some days. Then all of a sudden he becomes shaven-headed. We
haven't to request. He takes a bead and bead bag, although he's not
initiated. Then, after some days, he approaches, "Please get me
initiated." The bhajana-kriya. This is called bhajana-kriya. So we
initiate. "Yes, now you are interested, we initiate." We give him hari-
nama: "Chant Hare Krsna mantra." This is the first initiation. "And
chant sixteen rounds and observe these rules and regulations." Then,
when I see, six months or one year, he's doing very nicely, then we
accept him as my disciple, the second initiation. So this is bhajana-
kriya. Then he's admitted to worship the Deity or cook for the Deity,
so many things. Bhajana-kriya.
(Srimad-Bhagavatam Lecture 1.2.18 Calcutta, September 26, 1974)
Note: So Srila Prabhupada is giving the process of spiritual
activities (Bhajana-Kriya, Initation) in his original books, WHO CAN
REFUTE THIS FACT ???
* Therefore Srila Prabhupada is the Initating Spiritual Master (Diksa
Guru) for everyone in ISKCON.
Srila Prabhupada lives forever from his original books, we only need
to preserve and utilise them. We can utilise them by reading and
living them and also by distributing them to everyone on the planet so
they can do the same.
Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?
Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!
Devotee’s: Jaya! Haribol!
utilise.
(S.P.interview, Berkley, 1975)
"My rules and regulations"
Please make sure that these new devotees (as well as the old ones)
follow all of my rules and regulations strictly. They must chant 16
rounds, rise early, attend class, etc. Without these things, there is
no spiritual life at all.
(S.P. Letter to: Bhrsakapi Bombay 16 January, 1975)
Note: So when a devotee takes formal initiation he makes a vow to
follow the 4 regulations and chant 16 rounds a day. These are Srila
Prabhupada's rules and regulations, therefore anyone who vows to
follow them is actually accepting Srila Prabhupada as initiating
spiritual master (diksa guru).
THIS IS CLEAR, WHO CAN REFUTE IT ???
"You have to select a spiritual master not
by seeing but by your ear, but by hearing"
My Guru Maharaja, my spiritual master, used to say that you have to
select a spiritual master not by seeing but by your ear, but by
hearing. And you don't select a spiritual master who has got a very
good hair or beard or some very beautiful feature, "Oh, he is a very
good, nice looking." No. You must hear. Tad viddhi pranipatena. Sruti.
The whole process is sruti. The Vedas are called sruti. The ear has to
aural reception.
(B.G. 4.24.34 Lecture, N.Y. 2nd August, 1966)
Note: So any sincere soul who is hearing from Srila Prabhupada in the
form of his books is selecting him as spiritual master. They are not
attracted to so called living gurus with warm bodies, they are
attracted to the ETERNAL GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA. They have heard from
him and are now following the real Vedic process of accepting a bona-
fide spiritual master, not the methods of the sahajiya's and
mayavadi's.
By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you
and by this process your spiritual life will develop.
In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully
so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply
have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be
revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.
(SPL to Bahuru-pa dasa, 22nd November, 1974)
Note: The first point to note in this letter, is that there is no need
for a "living link" to understand Srila Prabhupada’s books. If there
is anything we do not understand that thing will be understood by
reading again and again. Srila Prabhupada describes our daily reading
of His books, as a process of revealing or awakening transcendental
knowledge. This process is described in the sastra as diksa.
"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken
his transcendental knowledge and vanquish
all reactions caused by sinful activity."
Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental
knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A
person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this
process as diksa.
(C.C. Mad., 15-108)
Diksa actualy means initiating a disciple with transcendental
knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.
(C.C. Mad., 4-111)
Note: Again this is clear confirmation that Srila Prabhupada is the
Inititing Spiritual Master (diksa guru) and is more elaborately
explained in the article
SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THE INTIATOR
tim lee
--- On Wed, 12/22/10, Mukunda dasa <prabhup...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> From: Mukunda dasa <prabhup...@googlemail.com>
> Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
> To: "Prabhupadanuga" <istag...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 22, 2010, 6:04 AM
PD: Thanks Mukunda prabhu, how predictable you guys are! None, ok not one of the quotes you gave even mentions a future pure devotee, you failed to even give one single quote on that topic. Anyway this is what we thought you and KK were saying all along, a future pure devotee will have to "follow the rules and regulations" of being subordinated to a group of neophytes, i.e. a GBC, DOM vote and so on, because you are saying what the GBC is now saying, you think pure devotees are like the Pope who has to be "voted upon" and he often has to "consult" with a "GBC council" within the "rules" of the votes of the College of Cardinals and so forth.
Basically IRM cheif KK told me that at the beginning, the future pure devotee will be under the authority of a GBC, GBC votes etc. and I said this idea: that a future pure devotees will be subordinated to a GBC is not substantiated by ANY QUOTES from Srila Prabhupada, KK then (lied and) said there are such DIRECT quotes, then he left for the UK and never sent me those quotes, because he lied. Lets face it KK thinks that the residents of Krishna loka need to surrender and accept Tamal and his GBC vote idea, that is what KK said at the beginning. I never agreed and now more people are rejecting that because its falling apart from the start, the lower devotees cannot vote and advise the higher devotees? Nor did you present even one quote where this is stated?
Basically you are giving the Tamal and GBC argument here, they say the pure person is subordinated to the GBC council and you are their cheer leading parrots, which AGAIN is why KK is being rejected everyhwere. KK is simply a GBC clone, he is saying EXACTLY what Tamal says, the pure devotee is under the authority of a GBC. You seem to have forgot something here, the idea that the pure devotee is subordinated to KK's College of Cardinals is -- not being accepted anymore, you are about 35 years too late here.
OK, that means you have a mundane idea of pure devotees. In addition you handily did not include all the quotes where Srila Prabhupada says he wants pure devotees in his movement, that he could order some guru in the future "on my order" and so on, because you are cherry picking only those quotes which support KK's foolish College of Cardinals / Pope view, and worse, that KK can predict the next 10k years will be folowing his and Tamal's College of Cardinals process. Srila Prabhupada never said, I can give an order for people to be gurus, but I will not do so for 10k years? He said he could give the order and that means AT ANY TIME, and you are saying he cannot give that order for 10k years because you want all the "orders" to come from cheif Pope-meister KK and his College of Cardinals.
You did not provide nor have I seen any evidence that any previous pure devotee followed this KK Vatican style idea: That the pure devotee is subordinated to the College of Cardinals or a GBC, you guys are apparently smoking too much horse whacky hay in your hash pipe it seems to me. In any case, just as I predicted NOT ONE OF THE QUOTES YOU GAVE MENTIONS the status of A FUTURE PURE DEVOTEE, not one of your quotes explains why Srila Prabhupada says he can give an order, etc. ad infinitum, you are all bluffers. Thanks for revealing that to us all. I think this puts the final nail in the KK College of Cardinals coffin, he has no quotes which refer to future pure devotees, his Tamal idea that pure devotees are subordinated to votes of kanisthas is failing to pieces daily, in sum he supports Tamal's main theme and he has lied all along and now he has been caught, thats all. ys pd
Bhaktatraveler
From: Mukunda dasa <prabhup...@googlemail.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 9:00:16 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Bhaktatraveler
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
rainer hahn
PADA: [...] OK, that means you have a mundane idea of pure devotees. In addition you handily did not include all the quotes where Srila Prabhupada says he wants pure devotees in his movement, that he could order some guru in the future "on my order" and so on, because you are cherry picking only those quotes which support KK's foolish College of Cardinals / Pope view, and worse, that KK can predict the next 10k years will be folowing his and Tamal's College of Cardinals process. Srila Prabhupada never said, I can give an order for people to be gurus, but I will not do so for 10k years? He said he could give the order and that means AT ANY TIME, and you are saying he cannot give that order for 10k years because you want all the "orders" to come from cheif Pope-meister KK and his College of Cardinals.
Don't understand this logic, why there should be no pure devotees? There will be pure devotees why not? But where it is stated that a pure devotee is automatically a diksa-guru?
"He said he could give the order and that means AT ANY TIME" Thats what present voted-in gurus say, I'm ordered by Prabhupada. They say exactly that since 30 years. Can someone please explain what Puranjana prabhu means by, appointment by receiving an order from Prabhupada? I mean so that all know 100% this appointment is genuine without the scenario what we have right now?
tim lee
--- On Wed, 12/22/10, rainer hahn <raine...@gmail.com> wrote:
Don't understand this logic, why there should be no pure devotees? There will be pure devotees why not? But where it is stated that a pure devotee is automatically a diksa-guru? "He said he could give the order and that means AT ANY TIME" Thats what present voted-in gurus say, I'm ordered by Prabhupada. They say exactly that since 30 years. Can someone please explain what Puranjana prabhu means by, appointment by receiving an order from Prabhupada? I mean so that all know 100% this appointment is genuine without the scenario what we have right now?
============
PD: Srila Prabhupada says that the BONA FIDE acharyas are "self effulgent," like the sunshine, and as such they are thus automatically acccepted by their self-evident divinity. Whereas the GBC's "self appointed" acharyas, ok not so much recognized by their self effulgence, and pretty much rejected nowadays on all fronts as many times darkness and not efullgence.
Who gets the order and how does he get the order? Ok, the person who has the actual order to be guru is getting DIRECT dictation (and thus authority from Krishna) as such he will be self effulgent, which Srila Prabhupada compares to the sunshine, hence: when there is self effulgent sunshine, everyone knows, its not really so much an ecclessiastial appointment system, just like people know the sun is shining, its not that you need some votes or certificates to know this, it is self apparent. That Srila Prabhupada is an empowered personality is known by his being self effulgent, it does not require anyone's votes, certificates and so forth.
As for a pure devotee who comes in future, he may or may not give official diksha ceremonials, this is called mental speculation. Or as we see sometimes the pure devotees only initiate a few people, or they may not officially initiate anyone. I do not recall Sri Arjuna initiating disciples for example, despite he is pure. I am just saying that whatever a future pure devotee does, whether he decides (and Krishna guides him) to give the diksha ceremonials or not, he he will be independent of cracker jack sooth sayers like Krishna Kanta who will be trying to be the boss / guidance / over arching authority of this future pure devotee and so on and so forth.
A pure devotee gets direct dictations from Krishna, Krishna will have the situation in hand should another pure devotee appear, there seems to be a lack of faith in these GBC / KK types. Anyway yes, this is baffling, you'd think that Krishna Kanta types would want some pure devotees to help ISKCON, but no, he told me future pure persons will have to operate "outside the walls of ISKCON," if they give diksha, of course since simply preaching itself is also a form of diskha, Krishna Kanta wants to suppress even a pure devotee from speaking, just like he has suppressed all of us from speaking on his web site since 1997, he is a devotee suppressor. Great, he thinks he can not only suppresss all of us but also he can suppress even a pure devotee. Its official: He is an idiot. ys pd
Ron Conroy
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satyahit das
mark mclaughlin
| Rainer Hahn is zeroing in on the main issue. This hullabaloo about a future "pure devotee" is nothing but a ploy, where a person attempts to leave open the possibility that they will eventually be recognized as that very pure one, and no one will question all the changes they need to make to the rules, because hey, they don't need to listen to anyone else. Of course an advanced unalloyed devotee would not consider the opinions of a group of fallen souls masquerading as legitimate GBC, any more than you or I do, and such a devotee would not allow themselves to be constrained by any arbitrarily rules generated by the mundane minds of rogue neophytes. But when you consider a large group of Bhaktas who are following all of Srila Prabhupada's rules, we then must understand that such rules are no hindrance to the service of a pure unalloyed devotee, but in fact both pure and mixed devotees follow the same sadhana and even when one is advanced, they follow the rules of the asrama without hindrance. The only case where a devotee must change rules is when they are thrust into a scenario by Krsna where there is no Gaudiya precedent. (Such as Prabhupada coming to America). But as long as we have Srila Prabhupada's original books, and a transcription of his comprehensive instructions, there is no need for an Acarya with a mission of "change". Prabhupada already said that we may need to make adjustments depending upon the country or culture we find ourselves amidst. But this leeway was not to change the adjustments he already made. It means that if he did not set a standard, we can set a standard in order to bring neophytes into the Gaudiya fold, knowing that Krsna will guide those neophytes to be able to take a higher standard later. As long as what we do does not contradict a standard Srila Prabhupada already set for Iskcon, we are given free reign to be independently thoughtful. And if a devotee simply can't implement Iskcon rules in some part of the world, and supersoul dictates to them to create an entirely new asrama, then so be it. I just couldn't imagine Supersoul would dictate to that devotee to call the new situation Iskcon, in comptetition with Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon, which would so contention and confusion. Those who imagine that do not understand Guru tattva or the nature of the Lord. |
tim lee
"Anyone who is ordered by the Lord to perform some action in this
material world, especially preaching His glories, cannot be
counteracted by anyone
Similarly, anyone who is ordered by the Lord to perform some action in
this material world, especially preaching His glories, cannot be
counteracted by anyone; the will of the Lord is executed under all
circumstances." (S.B. 3.16.36)
OK, this means: If a future pure devotee comes, no one will be able to curtail what he does, not even KK! If there is a "future pure devotee" who is in direct contact with Krishna, he can decide to work inside or outside of ISKCON, as he decides will help his preaching the most. Srila Prabhupada opted to work totally outside of the deviated Gaudiya Matha for this exact reason, it was so corrupt he had to depart.
One reason pure devotees cannot work with "their own society's" mission is that it often deviates, as Srila Prabhupada said "I am afraid the aim and object (of ISKCON) may be spoiled." So, in one sense, a future pure devotee might not work in ISKCON if we make such a mess of it, he cannot function there just as Srila Prabhupada could not function in the Gaudiya Matha.
In short, as some karmis say, if Jesus came back he would be driven out of his own church. My main point is that all this speculation was started by Krishna kanta, he started this whole issue of: future pure devotees not being able to give diksha (they cannot preach which is also diksha?), KK alone knows the next 10k years of time, KK knows how future pure devotees would have to operate outside the walls, ad infinitum, none of which was actually SPECIFICALLY described in DIRECT QUOTES by Srila Prabhupada, its all KK speculations, he never gives any direct quotes.
The idea that another pure devotee could come is therefore possible, and the idea that another pure devotee "replaces" Srila Prabhupada is foolish, did Srila Prabhupada replace Srila Saraswati? This is a straw man argument. I think Mark prabhu has made some good summation of a few good points here. It is good that people are starting to consider all this, because the idea that a future pure devotee has to operate outside ISKCON might become a self fulfilling prophecy, in which case we failed ISKCON. ys pd
--- On Wed, 12/22/10, mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 2010, 6:29 PM
Rainer Hahn is zeroing in on the main issue.
This hullabaloo about a future "pure devotee" is nothing but a ploy, where a person attempts to leave open the possibility that they will eventually be recognized as that very pure one, and no one will question all the changes they need to make to the rules, because hey, they don't need to listen to anyone else.
Of course an advanced unalloyed devotee would not consider the opinions of a group of fallen souls masquerading as legitimate GBC, any more than you or I do, and such a devotee would not allow themselves to be constrained by any arbitrarily rules generated by the mundane minds of rogue neophytes.
But when you consider a large group of Bhaktas who are following all of Srila Prabhupada's rules, we then must understand that such rules are no hindrance to the service of a pure unalloyed devotee, but in fact both pure and mixed devotees follow the same sadhana and even when one is advanced, they follow the rules of the asrama without hindrance.
The only case where a devotee must change rules is when they are thrust into a scenario by Krsna where there is no Gaudiya precedent. (Such as Prabhupada coming to America). But as long as we have Srila Prabhupada's original books, and a transcription of his comprehensive instructions, there is no need for an Acarya with a mission of "change".
PD: OK!
Prabhupada already said that we may need to make adjustments depending upon the country or culture we find ourselves amidst. But this leeway was not to change the adjustments he already made. It means that if he did not set a standard, we can set a standard in order to bring neophytes into the Gaudiya fold, knowing that Krsna will guide those neophytes to be able to take a higher standard later.
PD Right!
As long as what we do does not contradict a standard Srila Prabhupada already set for Iskcon, we are given free reign to be independently thoughtful.
PD GOOD!
And if a devotee simply can't implement Iskcon rules in some part of the world, and supersoul dictates to them to create an entirely new asrama, then so be it. I just couldn't imagine Supersoul would dictate to that devotee to call the new situation Iskcon, in comptetition with Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon, which would so contention and confusion.
PD Makes sense!
Those who imagine that do not understand Guru tattva or the nature of the Lord.
PD Agreed.
tim lee
I recall that when we originally started working on getting the BBTI lawsuit going, Krishna Kanta was our worst critic, he and Yaduraja told us not to work with the people we needed to for the case. Worse, Krishna Kanta and Yaduraja went to the people who were helping us with this lawsuit and they insulted them and tried to break up our whole BBTI lawsuit scheme, and stop our original books group, and stop our plan to get the legal rights for the original books ok really: which means KK and Yaduraja wanted Jayadvaita's changed books to win. To this day Krishna Kanta has never explained why he wants us to read these changed books of Jayadvaita swami, and he wants us to drop our original books BBTI lawsuit idea?
Had we listened to Krishna Kanta, there would be no legal rights to the original books today, we would all be reading Jayadvaita's editions. I am simply amazed that after Krishna Kanta advocated we keep Jayadvaita book changer on board to run the BBT, ... we, those of us who put the original Srila Prabhupada books into the forefront, which includes Madhuvisa prabhu, are still being seen as "the problem"? This is a larger problem really with all our efforts, we do not want to give credit to others and their preaching and contribution to restoring and promoting Srila Prabhupada, which Madhuvisa is doing factually every day. Now he is making the audio of the rascal editors tape available, I say, we should help him and not give him grief, because unlike Krishna kanta, Madhuvisa sees the value of keeping our spiritual masters books in original conditions and not have them changed. We should help Madhuvisa prabhu and get this tape out and expose these "rascal
editors" NOW and quit worrying about what we will all be doing 10k years from now! One thing about the future is clear, at least we will not be following KK's plan to have Jayadvaita's edited books as exclusive. ys pd
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-10/editorials6884.htm
mark mclaughlin
| Puranjana das said: "One reason pure devotees cannot work with "their own society's" mission is that it often deviates, as Srila Prabhupada said "I am afraid the aim and object (of ISKCON) may be spoiled." So, in one sense, a future pure devotee might not work in ISKCON if we make such a mess of it, he cannot function there just as Srila Prabhupada could not function in the Gaudiya Matha." |
| So the logical conclusion from here is that we have already made a mess of Iskcon, either directly or through lack of potency to stop the madness. 1. Therefore we either get together with enough Prabhus and start a group of small temples within which we institute all the rules and regs for Iskcon given by Srila Prabhupada. OR 2. We live as "best we can" (lukewarm) and be FORCED to wait for Krsna to send another effulgent advanced acarya to repeat what Prabhupada did and hope we are around to pitch in what we can. Choosing the first option will allow any and all, both pure and mixed devotees who are "waiting in the wings", either on OR off the planet, to join in with us as they like. Choosing the second option means that anyone with half a brain will beg the Lord to NOT be born amongst us until HE sends someone competent to start a new movement. I am a very new guy. But I see this much, and apparently that is all I get. So I figure the choice will be made by the senior men. Please let me know somehow or other what you all decide to do. Hare Krsna! ys B.Mark |
rainer hahn
Whenever I met ISKCON devotees they say it is IRM what is convincing. When KK is working at a topic he does substantial research work and even folks like University professors of theology are refering to those articles.
So it's hard to understand why PADA doesnt leave anything good at IRM? Besides, Puranjana prabhu often says, PADA are historians, writing down ISKCON history. So this is a different field like what KK is doing with his Bach to Prabhupada magazine. Why not complement one another?
Similiarly, Naara Narayana prabhu with his DOM implimentation and Madhu Pandit with his Bangalore project, Madhudvisa prabhu, Anuttama dd, Lakshmi dd, etc etc.. Ok, lots of prabhupadanugas consider this a vaisya Disneyland project, but Bangalore is a successful local project. Might not work somewhere else, but Madhu Pandit tapped the full potential out of that region.
In sum, all make their contribution and want Prabhupada in the center.
At that point where we are right now we have to to combine and work together. This is of no good to split and again split and finally ISKCON's rank&file are totally bewlildered what happened with the Prabhupadanugas are they not preaching Prabhupada anymore shot themselves in the foot?
ys
rmd
Jack Eskildsen
Hare Krsna
--- On Thu, 12/23/10, tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> wrote:
lakshmi kary
this is version number 2 since the original disappered in cyber space
Hare Krishna
Dear Puranjana,
Im not disputing your comments on Madhuvisa,
he has spent countless YEARS working hard to do the right thing. I'm sure if anyone who how much
effort ,how many year of real work and devotion went and goes into his service they would refrain from criticizing him. Considering how much he did do and does do is worthy of recognition.
What I am disputing ,Puranjana is your self proclaimed claim to fame repeatedly in your post, where you seen to want to take credit for getting the original books re-printed, or heading up the lawsuit etc.
This is the problem I have with you, you cant speak straight, everything is tainted, and because of this you loose credibility.
I would like to know exactly, what did YOU PERSONALLY DO IN THIS LAWSUIT?
How much money, time effort ,etc did YOU provide in this endeavor.?
But what I'd like a response on is these comments of yours-
" I recall that when we originally started working on getting the BBTI lawsuit going" ,
are Bhima das, Dasdasanudas devi dasi and the numerous devotees who collected hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the lawsuit. You seem to have conveniently forgotten ALL of the intense days, months and years that HANSADUTTA and other devotees put into the lawsuit challenging the BBTI to print the original books.(As a matter of fact you take every opportunity to rag on the one person who was instrumental in getting the lawsuit in motion) You are forgetting all the wonderful things Hansadutta has done because you are so busy insulting him, and trying to make yourself out to be a savior of this and that.
Do you happen to have a widely successful single volume SB, CC or small black Vinyl Gita in your possession? Gee did you accomplish that?
Why dont you give credit where credit is due????????
The lawsuit was a result of when Bhima das was DENIED being able to purchase books for distribution, because he wasn't accepted by the local ISKCON power people.Some of those same people were actually really beaten! trying to distribute the truth about ISKCON. But you never mention them, only yourself.
Pathetic.
It doesn't matter that Gupta the lawyer that was paid literally hundreds of thousands of dollars by Bhima das to fight BBT , then changed sides and SWINDLED Bhima, Das devi and Hansadutta out of everything, money,books etc.
I don't want to go into ancient history , but I think it is really low class of you to
make yourself out as a significant party in this when you WERE not. I don't remember seeing your name, or your presence at any of the meeting,I don't remember you giving any testimonies, meeting with the lawyers, I don't remember seeing you send ANY donations.The only thing I saw is that you temporarily stopped back stabbing Hansadutta in the back.
( In fact , who DID offer to help fund the lawsuit??????? )
Its 100% pathetic that you want to claim any recognition for challenging the BBTI ,
when there were others who really PAID and suffered for the YEARS of legal maneuvers.
Anyway, Id like to know how/where you were such a hero in this case?
ys
Lakshmi
tim lee
From: lakshmi kary <laksh...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhuvisa is getting the actual job done
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010, 12:14 PM
Hare Krishna
Dear Puranjana,
Im not disputing your comments on Madhuvisa, he has spent countless YEARS working hard to do the right thing. I'm sure if anyone who how much effort, how many year of real work and devotion went and goes into his service they would refrain from criticizing him. Considering how much he did do and does do is worthy of recognition.
[PD: Good, yes agreed Madhuvisa is light years ahead of Krishna Kanta, because Madhuvisa has all along wanted to promote the original editions of Srila Prabhupada's books. Krishna Kanta told me to "stop" all my work on this issue (getting originals) thus as far as I know he wants to promote Jayadvaita's editions.]
* What I am disputing, Puranjana is your self proclaimed claim to fame repeatedly in your post, where you seen to want to take credit for getting the original books re-printed, or heading up the lawsuit etc.
[PD: OK, we are the ones who first mentioned the whole problem of book changes in our PADA newletters starting way back in the early 1990s, which then got many others interested. Yasodanandana prabhu and others also wrote articles complaining about the book changes (go ahead and ask him if you want to confirm) and these articles were printed in my PADA newsletters, and so eventually a group of concerned devotees made some propaganda over this, and this then came to some of them talking to me about this, and this lead to meetings, and I had many meetings with Gupta, Yasodanandana, and others and I recall sometimes Hansadutta was staying at Naranarayan dasa's where he came to participate and so on, and many others eventually came over to this issue, so we were making public protest of this problem. I did not see any other newsletters dealing with the issue, if someone else was doing that, then who was that? Bhima das and others were interested, fine, but
hardly no one else knew of his efforts because he was not making public propaganda "no changed books" newslettters like we were.]
* This is the problem I have with you, you cant speak straight, everything is tainted, and because of this you loose credibility. I would like to know exactly, what did YOU PERSONALLY DO IN THIS LAWSUIT? How much money, time effort ,etc did YOU provide in this endeavor? See Prabhu, this is what really annoys me about you, you are very misleading and prone to self aggrandizement and this very post of yours which sounds like YOU are the savior of trying to get the original books printed is fallacy.
[PD: OK fine, plese show me who else was publicly championing the issue to the devotees apart from my newsletters? You failed to mention who else was doing that? Bhima and others were objecting, I agree, but no one knew what he was doing since he was not publicly protesting the issue like we were.]
* But what I'd like a response on is these comments of yours - "I recall that when we originally started working on getting the BBTI lawsuit going" , "went to the people who were helping us with this lawsuit and they insulted them and tried to break up our whole BBTI lawsuit scheme, and stop our original books group, and stop our plan to get the legal rights for the'"
I'd just like to remind you that - When Hansadutta was in Berkeley 1978-82 ??? he managed to print the whole set of Srimad Bhagavatam (Original copy) and The small bible paper Gita, another larger edition of Bhagavad Gita on normal paper, a one volume Bhagavatam, Bible paper, a one Volume of the entire Chaitanya Charitamrita - also an edition of The Teachings of Lord Chaitanya. And, even though he was an authorised BBT trustee, and was entirely authorised in printing those books, Rameswara and other leaders, (Tamal Krishna Goswami included) boycotted these publications world wide.
[PD: OK, this meant that I was correct, he did not really have the legal rights to print SRILA PRABHUPADA's BOOKS? That was my all along point, we needed the legal rights to print these books. We were discussing the need for LEGAL RIGHTS way before anyone else was publicly saying this? In 1986 Hansadutta announced in Berkeley (I was there) that Kirtanananda is the only pure devotee on the planet and we need to work with him and surrender to him, i.e. surrender to the book changers bogus GBC, and he sent most of the Berkeley devotees to New Vrndavana, and he signed off the legal rights of the Berkeley temple over to these bogus GBC, and so Hansadutta was only on our side partially, because he was also on the side of the bogus GBC's and their book changer's, this is why the issue was being muddled all along, people like Hansadutta were working with us and with the book changers simultaneously. Had he kept Berkeley temple, we could have made a legal stand
against the GBC and the book changers from there, he just tossed the legal rights over to the book changers.]
* Rameswara even passed himself off as a BBT Trustee, although he never was a BBT trustee at any time in his life. THE REAL PEOPLE WHO ARE BEHIND THE ATTEMPT TO RESURRECT SRILA PRABHUPADAS BOOKS are Bhima das, Dasdasanudas devi dasi and the numerous devotees who collected hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the lawsuit.
[PD: OK agreed, this is all fine, but again, you are missing the main point, we are the ones who wanted to get the legal side settled, and not work with the bogus GBC like Ramesvara and Kirtanananda etc. and in 1986 Hansadutta mistakenly thought Kirtanananda was a pure devotee. KS was working with Ramesvara and the book changers all along. Anyway this was eventually being discussed in my newsletters and this created an interest group and so forth. I admit the Hansadutta people helped, but again, it was a group effort that was made AFTER we mentioned it repeatedly and got an interest group together. Yes, Hansadutta was a participant and he helped and should get credit for that. At the same time, he could have got much of this done way back in 1984 if he had followed our advice to cut loose from them right from the get go.
So Hansaduuta wanted us to surrender to Kirtanananda and the whole book changers program in 1986, this set us back almost 20 years. Later Krishna Kanta did not want the originals because he said, our court case was bogus because we were working with all these people, he clearly wants Jayadvaita's books.]
* You seem to have conveniently forgotten ALL of the intense days, months and years that HANSADUTTA and other devotees put into the lawsuit challenging the BBTI to print the original books.(As a matter of fact you take every opportunity to rag on the one person who was instrumental in getting the lawsuit in motion) You are forgetting all the wonderful things Hansadutta has done because you are so busy insulting him, and trying to make yourself out to be a savior of this and that.
[PD: Hansadutta prabhu helped, agreed. At the same time Hansadutta then impetuously signed off on a compromised / bad deal for us / legal agreement because he eventually refused to show these documents to Yasodananada, and thus he got all of us into a bad agreement resulting in a huge mess because he went off the reservation and did not consult with us. As we all know, after he signed the bad deal -- then so many problems evolved, so he did some good things but also he made a huge mess of the legal case because he did not show it to any of us and consult, and so he signed a bad deal for us, however some deal is better than no deal.
The whole issue with Gupta is also because Hansadutta hid the whole deal from all of us, that mess too could have been largely avoided if the whole thing had been transparent. Hansadutta caused this Gupta mess all by himself because he hid things from us and this resulted in a legal imbroglio. If the whole agreement with the BBTI and Gupta had been known to us, we could have seen these problems with it BEFORE it turned into a HUGE mess. Krishna Kanta could have also avoided his 10k years bogus future crystal ball deal if he too had shown us in advance. Yasodanandana works with legal papers all day long, when he read what Hansadutta had signed, he was fried. Hansadutta does not want to consult, that is why in 1986 he thought Kirtanananda was a pure devotee when at that very same time I was telling people that KS was molesting boys in his motorhome, so he pays the price for that, except all the rest of us suffer from his compromises.]
* Do you happen to have a widely successful single volume SB, CC or small black Vinyl Gita in your possession? Gee did you accomplish that?
Why dont you give credit where credit is due????????
[PD: I am giving credit, Hansadutta agreed to help us and he did, at the same time he made a mess by surrendering to Kirtanananda and losing focus on the books, and later with the BBTI case, because of his tendency to not consult with others. At the same time, you are corrrect, he did print some of these things and that is great. I agree but, my point is that he should have worked with us, consulted, and thus not surrended to Kirtanananda, i.e. he should have instead helped us to insure the future printing. He should have LATER consulted again rather rather than sign off on a highly compromised deal. So he gets some credit, thats true, I am not disagreeing, but he did not put all this together himself, that is false. And Hansadutta was trying to be loyal all along to both us and to the book changers -- like the GBC and Kirtanananda et al. so Hansadutta has been all over the map, he was for both no changes and for the worst big changers, and so we are the
ones who cleared the path for him and made the map clear, do not work with these book changers, period. In fact we are the ones who pointed Hansadutta along the right path, we said, quit working with these book changers and he eventually agreed, albeit many years later. I told Hansadutta and his ilk, do not work with these book changers all along from early 1980s, it took him many years to figure out -- I was right. He did not want to challenge the book changers, rather he wanted to surrender to them, that is why he sent almost the whole Berkeley temple devotees to Kirtanananda's. He was for us, and them, simultaneously.]
* The lawsuit was a result of when Bhima das was DENIED being able to purchase books for distribution, because he wasn't accepted by the local ISKCON power people. Some of those same people were actually really beaten! trying to distribute the truth about ISKCON. But you never mention them, only yourself. Pathetic. It doesn't matter that Gupta the lawyer that was paid literally hundreds of thousands of dollars by Bhima das to fight BBT, then changed sides and SWINDLED Bhima, Das devi and Hansadutta out of everything, money, books etc.
[PD: OK, and the main reason Hansadutta was swindled is that he refused to consult with Yasodanananda, who is a lawyer himself, he signed a bogus deal because of his tendency to maverick out, and it cost him dearly for this mistake. Had he shown us all the documents and (bad) deal to us BEFORE SIGNING, much of his being cheated would have been avoided, he never showed us anything until it was WAY too late. He bought a lemon and then he wanted us to make it into sweet rice.]
* I don't want to go into ancient history , but I think it is really low class of you to make yourself out as a significant party in this when you WERE not. I don't remember seeing your name, or your presence at any of the meeting, I don't remember you giving any testimonies, meeting with the lawyers, I don't remember seeing you send ANY donations.The only thing I saw is that you temporarily stopped back stabbing Hansadutta in the back. ( In fact , who DID offer to help fund the lawsuit??????? ) Its 100% pathetic that you want to claim any recognition for challenging the BBTI, when there were others who really PAID and suffered for the YEARS of legal maneuvers.
[PD: Well the main problem now is that Hansadutta signed a bogus agreement, he should have worked with us.]
Anyway, Id like to know how/where you were such a hero in this case?
ys Lakshmi
[PD: I am not the hero of anything, I discussed the issue, this generated interest, and eventually some of those who were interested got together. We told Hansadutta for 20 years, do not work with these bogus book changers, he eventually agreed. Everyone involved needs to get credit where it is due, that is fine, I agree. I never said I did the whole thing, I said by my constantly mentioning the issue it helped generate interest. Therefore, some credit goes to me, but not the whole credit, agreed. Now we need to pick up with what we have and do the best with that, and Madhuvisa gets the main credit for that effort. He is doing the actual distribution, he gets the gold medal. ys pd]
tim lee
--- On Thu, 12/23/10, lakshmi kary <laksh...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: lakshmi kary <laksh...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhuvisa is getting the actual job done
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010, 8:00 PM
Hare Krishna
Dear Puranjana,
Oh my God you are so delusional. Where oh where did Hansadutta ever say Kirtananda was a pure devotee, are you joking???????????
[PD: I was there when Hansadutta declared that Kirtanananda is "the only pure devotee on the planet" and he told the devotees in Berkeley to go to New Vrndavana. You yourself admit you and Hansadutta were living at New Vrndavana? You all went there, this is a fact you admit yourself.
I was there when the caravan of temple vehicles was leaving the Berkeley temple? And so were many other eye-witnesses, I could get many other witnesses to agree that Hansadutta sent almost the whole temple manpower away to "surrender to Kirtanananda at New Vrndavana." And that is the reason there is now nobody left at Berkeley temple, Hansadutta wanted to turn the place into a ghost town, and he did that.
Most of the Berkeley devotees went to Kirtanananda's zone, including YOURSELF and Hansadutta himself. You said YOURSELF that you all went there! You took all these devotees, all the temple vehicles, much of the temple funds, and many of Hansadutta's disciples then became Kirtananda's newest henchmen, like Chandrashekar swami and so on. Chandrashekar has violently attacked some of our people in New York City, he has simply became a goon for K swami because Hansadutta told him to surrender there.
I was there in Berkeley, I saw the caravan of devotees leaving for NV. The devotees who came to chase me a few weeks later were from New Vrndavana, and they were cuffed by the Berkeley police. I was there, I saw the devotees leaving for NV, I AND THE POLICE saw the goondas come back and chase me? Are you saying, the police did not cuff Hansadutta's people for chasing me, when all this is on police record?]
* Please tell, I have ALL the transcripts Ill look up what he said - just tell me when YOU heard that, funny thing is I was there before you, and I was with him after we left and lived in New Vrndavan, and your interpretation of what was happening and what happened are definetly not compatible with reality.
[PD: OK, so you all went to New Vrndavana, and Hansadutta wanted to sign the temple over to Kirtananda's people, and this is because, Hansadutta had no faith in Kirtanananda? Why did Hansadutta empty the temple to New Vrndavana if he had no faith in Kirtanananda? You are not making sense?]
* Puranjana you were living in a camper with your 3 kids in the parking lot, not showering, slinking around, not doing any service, your wife was up to all sorts of things, I wont mention here. So this is when you were "leading the way"!!! leading the battle to get the books printed..
Are you joking? Man, now I know for SURE you are 100% crazy.
[PD: And this is why Berkeley temple is in the mess it is in now, Hansadutta LEGALLY signed off the property to the book changers and it has only had ten devotees there ever since because no one wants to work with those book changers, which Hansadutta signed the place over to. Hansadutta wanted the book changers to be legally in charge of Berkeley, because he signed it over to them. This is all legally documented.]
* Its not even worth talking to you , because you cant stop yourself from lying, being deceptive, or maybe its just because you are just out right delusional!!!
[PD: I saw the caravan of vehicles leaving the Berkely temple to go to New Vrndavana? And at the time we (and Sulochana) reported that Kirtanananda was having sex with boys in his motorhome. Why was Hansadutta sending you and everyone else there?]
* Your interpretation of events and who did what is complete here say, reflected off of your very delusional mentality. Who can argue or debate with someone who is such a twister or words and events. Im sure Chakravarti and all the REAL devotees who printed and paid and went to great lengths to publish Srila Prabhupadas original works will love to hear that you think you are actually the real master mind behind it all.
Go on Puranjana continue to show us all your insanity to all its glory !
Pathetic.
Lakshmi
[PD: And you are correct, Bhima dasa and others were beaten by GBC goondas, I agree, and that is in part because Hansadutta was saying these GBC are pure devotees. Hansadutta was causing these problems for his own people. As for my wife, she was having a nervous break down because she feared I could get killed, the FBI told the Berkeley police, i was next on the list. And you think causing people to have a nervous breakdown is -- funny? Anyway good luck, you just admitted you all went there, you confirmed my story in spades. ys pd]
From: lakshmi kary <laksh...@gmail.com>
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Ron Conroy
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satyahit das
tim lee
[NOTE: The whole story of Hansadutta surrendering to Kirtanananda is also confirmed by many witnesses in the book "Monkey On A Stick," and is backed by the legal documents submitted in courts at the time, i.e. that Hansadutta was trying to give the Berkeley temple to Kirtanananda. There was initially a legal letter submitted to the courts by the Hansadutta temple board members, saying the temple has to be given to Kirtanananda. Atreya Rsi was able to take Hansadutta to court and at least get a few "moderates" on the temple board like Bhakti Swarupa Damodar swami, so Atreya was able to thwart Hansadutta's plan to make Kirtanananda the acharya of the San Fancisco area. Without Atreya taking Hansadutta to court, Berkeley temple would right now today have huge photos of Kirtanananda on the altars, that is exactly what Hansadutta wanted. This is all documented in court papers. Kirtanananda not only likes changed books, he wrote his own Bhagavad Gita. I have
made a video with lots of photos from the Hansadutta / Kirtanananda New Vrndavana era in 1986, the exact time when Hansadutta "surrendered most of Berkeley's temple members" there. In sum, the initial court letter was signed by Hansadutta's people FROM where he sent them i.e. NEW VRNDAVANA, I do not need any eye-witnesses even, Atreya's court papers can confirm that Hansadutta wanted Kirtanananda to be the acharya of Berkeley, because there are LEGAL DOCUMENTS saying that. Here are some photos from the 1986 Hansadutta / Kirtanananda program era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoaeBdCaQ8I
ys pd]
From: Ron Conroy <saty...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, December 24, 2010, 1:25 AM
Sidhaswarupananda / Ciatanya Mission/ is in Poland Brazil, Hawaii , where else i dunno, Prabhupada disciple Prabhupada said leave him alone he is spreading the chanting of the holy name. They are quite actiue in Hawaii.
[PD: "His Divine Grace Siddhaswarupa Srila Prabhupada Maharaja" was forced to get married after he was caught having sex with his secretary. He is another wanna be acharya.]
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 11:03 AM, mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[PD: Mark Prabhu: the only option I have promoted is: to have people accept Srila Prabhupada as their acharya, read his books, listen to his tapes, and accept him as their guru, and not worry about whether or not there is a formal organization at this time. This is sort of like a grass roots movement, not formal, and it is spreading on this basis, we are getting new people to accept this principle and it is spreading gradually, that means eventually there will be a formal mission, just like Christians send two missionaries somewhere and they get a few people, and then those few people get a few more people, grass roots, then eventually there is a church. It will occur in time. My children have accepted Srila Prabhupada as their guru, for example, they know that there is no formal mission but they recognize him as their guru, that is all we can do for now. I see nothing wrong with that either, ys pd]
rainer hahn
not sure where it is evident that IRM / Krishnakant supports Jayadvaita swami's book change program, any quotes? On the other hand there are many articles http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/js2.htm exposing JS?
The whole issue BBT / BBTI / Hansadutta / Gupta / KBI is a totally internal US law issue since Prabhupada made all those registrations on US territory.
Situation of all devotees outside US was and is to helplessly watch what is going on in US.
Gupta stating that KBI only works on US territory the rest of the world is in legal nowhere land concerning reprint of Prabhupada's original books and so on and so forth.
Krishnakant causing Madhudvisa endless trouble, reported by Puranjana and not by Madhudvisa, not sure what this means?
In sum, in the west the Prabhupadanuga process seems blocked? Meanwhile all kicked out ISKCON devotees in the European Union joined GM. Not because they love the GM so very much, rather because they don't see any light at the end of tunnel when PADA / Nara Narayana / IRM / Kapindra Swami / Mukunda / are able to clarify their dispute.
Devotees in Europe are helpless on their own, you are quickly dead without shelter and kali-yuga is getting stronger. To tell these ex-Iskconites they have shit in their brains because they cannot wait till the fighting Prabhupadanugas have finished their saber rattling, not sure if these are Prabhupada's words?
Anyway it is like it is, most devotees on this forum just wait. We waited now for so many years, so just be happy, go on waiting and chant Hare Krishna.
ys
rmd
Hare KrishnaDear Puranjana,Oh my God you are so delusional. Where oh where did Hansadutta ever say Kirtananda was a pure devotee,are you joking???????????
Please tell,I have ALL the transcripts Ill look up what he said - just tell me when YOU heard that,funny thing is I was there before you, and I was with him after we left and lived in New Vrndavan,and your interpretation of what was happening and what happened are definetly not compatible with reality.
(Puranjana you were living in a camper with your 3 kids in the parking lot , not showering , slinking around,not doing any service, your wife was up to all sorts of things,,I wont mention here.so this is when you were "leading the way"!!! leading the battle to get the books printed..
Are you joking?Man, now I know for SURE you are 100% crazy.
Its not even worth talking to you , because you cant stop yourself from lying, being deceptive, or maybe its just because you are just out right delusional!!!
Your interpretation of events and who did what is complete here say, reflected off of your very delusional mentality.Who can argue or debate with someone who is such a twister or words and events.
Im sure Chakravarti and all the REALdevotees who printed and paid and went to great lengths to publish Srila Prabhupadas original works will love to hear that you think you are actually the real master mind behind it all.
Go on Puranjana continue to show us all your insanity to all its glory !Pathetic.Lakshmi
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:05 PM, tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jack Eskildsen
| Yep, reading the books, waiting and waiting and watching the fighting. I have watched it over the internet for nearly 10 years. Seen it all, virtually every debate imaginable 100's of times and most of it is still like a foreign language to me because I don't have a legalistic brain. Was just listening to Aindra Prabhu on youtube last night and as far as I can tell he was a pure devotee so that is proof to me that Prabhupada has produced pure devotees. Hare Krsna --- On Fri, 12/24/10, rainer hahn <raine...@gmail.com> wrote: |
Jack Eskildsen
| Hopefully Krsna has something extra special in store for us for enduring all this waiting and waiting. :) Maybe it will be like that Movie 2010 Space Odyssey. Something Incredible is about to happen. :) --- On Fri, 12/24/10, Jack Eskildsen <deadh...@yahoo.com> wrote: |
mark mclaughlin
| Puranjana das wrote: PD: Mark Prabhu: the only option I have promoted is: to have people accept Srila Prabhupada as their acharya, read his books, listen to his tapes, and accept him as their guru, and not worry about whether or not there is a formal organization at this time. This is sort of like a grass roots movement, not formal, and it is spreading on this basis, we are getting new people to accept this principle and it is spreading gradually. B.M: That sounds realistic for now in your situation. P.D "that means eventually there will be a formal mission, just like Christians send two missionaries somewhere and they get a few people, and then those few people get a few more people, grass roots, then eventually there is a church. It will occur in time. B.M: I'd say that there ought to be plenty of disciples in the elder set 45 - 65 whose combined knowledge of the proper formalities and formula for creating a temple would allow them to initiate such a project tomorrow if they had the desire to cooperate in such a fashion. If they were serious and put together a summary of a plan to establish a temple, they might receive funding from sympathetic disciples who could not join the mission right away for whatever reason. It is a matter of that being a real desire in one's heart, a priority, one must conclude that this is necessary to further please Prabhupada and Krsna, or else impediments will automatically arise to keep our next step as just that, a nebulous future possibilty if only, but.... Thousands of Libertarians from across the USA packed up and moved their families to a tri-county area in New Hampshire after an initial core group researched for years to discover the state whose politics most suited their goal. Their goal was to get so many people of like mind to move to one area, take over local municipal politics. County next, then state. Constitutional Libertarians. The Free State Project. They still have a webforum and 10 years later are still attracting like minded Americans after having done serious infiltration into the political machine in 3 counties. They have all sorts of events and many sub projects have sprung up. If only we could be so bold and insightful. PD: "My children have accepted Srila Prabhupada as their guru, for example, they know that there is no formal mission but they recognize him as their guru, that is all we can do for now. I see nothing wrong with that either, ys pd" B.M: Sounds great for now. Let's see what we can do about using this plateau we have discovered to leap for the stars. ys B.Mark |
larry freeman p
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:03:31 -0800
From: markm...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Madhudvisa dasa: The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
To: istag...@googlegroups.com