The "When I Order" Argument
Pratyatosa
I don't think that "Become guru when I order." is a very good argument. Srila Prabhupada deputed the GBC body to act on his behalf, so on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, the GBC body orders one to become guru. This means that the original 11 were all bogus, because they tricked the GBC into thinking that they had been appointed gurus by Srila Prabhupada, but those who were approved by the GBC after the "appointment" was shown to be a hoax are not necessarily bogus.
You may say that these later gurus are also bogus because the GBC ignored the July 9th letter, but they also ignored the voting portion of the DOM for 40 years, 7 of those years when Srila Prabhupada was personally present to chastise them for their non-compliance, but he never did. In other words, the GBC's temporarily ignoring Srila Prabhupada's instruction is not unprecedented, but the key word is "temporarily." Srila Prabhupada's instructions cannot be ignored forever, even by the GBC.
What every member of the GBC needs to read is:
http://rtvik.com/
... and the straightforward logic of http://rtvik.com/ has nothing to do with "when I order."
"Do not initiate in my presence," however, is a good reason to not initiate on one's own behalf within ISKCON, because ISKCON is non-different from Srila Prabhupada. Therefore, Srila Prahupada is always present within ISKCON. In other words, Srila Prabhupada tricked the guru wannabes who he knew would try to take over his institution.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi, http://causelessmercy.com/ http://rtvik.com/ http://pratyatosa.com/ http://feedacow.com/ http://llbest.com/>
granddisciples when??
"WHEN I ORDER"
No order = all are (still), Prabhupad
disciples
simple,
isn't it?
mark mclaughlin
| Hare Krnsa Prabhu! you said "Srila Prabhupada deputed the GBC body to act on his behalf, so on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, the GBC body orders one to become guru." I think I understand where you are trying to go with this logical leap. First, off though, there is no order from Srila Prabhupada like this. Srila Prabhupada never once ordered anyone to be guru. Therefore the logic where I come from says that if the GBC is going to act on his behalf, they would not be ordering anyone to be a Guru. They would certainly be travelling to temples and overseeing the curriculum that the brahmanas were offering to the community, to make sure they were giving instruction from Prabhupada's vani, but beyond that I don't agree they had any authority you speak of. A teacher of guru quality emerges from training at the local level. What I could see is that the GBC could order an examination system to see if a person qualifies in sastric knowledge to teach gurukula, but as far as the person's social qualifications, that has to be observed by local men and taken into consideration before placing him before students. ys B.Mark --- On Sat, 7/3/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote: |
Pratyatosa
Srila Prabhupada never once ordered anyone to be guru. Therefore the logic where I come from says that if the GBC is going to act on his behalf, they would not be ordering anyone to be a Guru.
If I didn't need such a direct order, then why does the GBC need one?
Ys, Ptd
Pratyatosa
Do you have any quotes similar to "Do not initiate in my presence?" I was thinking of adding the argument that I mentioned in my previous email (see below) to:
http://rtvik.com/
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Greg Jay
Pratyatosa
If I didn't need such a direct order, then why does the GBC need one?Or anyone else for that matter?
Exactly. Srila Prabhupada was very pleased with the Spiritual Sky incense business also, but I'm pretty sure that he never gave a direct order that this type of business be started.
Ys, Ptd
Greg Jay
IF someone is NOT a pure devotee?
how can that person give diksa?
mark mclaughlin
| GKD : For argument sake let's accept it. If Srila Prabhupada is actually present then there is no reason for any system. My reply. Except he used the system when he was physically present. GKD: He can give diksha himself. My reply: He still does through ritviks, just like he always did. GKD : There is no limitation of time, space, sickness, etc. affecting him now. So why not just let him appear to each individual in his own way? My reply. "Let him"? What presumptive arrogance. He does as he will regardless of what you may or may not think you could "let him" do. GKD: After all what business is it of yours? You and I are already initiated. Prabhupada
can indeed do as he likes, and if he wishes to appear to a bhakta now
and directly give him diksha then there is nothing stopping him. Unless you actually do not believe he is present??? You cannot have you definition of presence and not accept this logical argument. Otherwise you are limiting him as much as those who you call "living guru" advocators. My reply: Srila Prabhupada is present in his instructions. Especially the one where he ordered no change in management. --- On Sat, 7/3/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:
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mark mclaughlin
| Except that Srila Prabhupada also purports that because of the insufficient guidance of less than uttamas, one should be careful to accept only an uttama as spiritual master. And he was so kind to offer his own uttama self to take the responsibility for as many as wanted to take him as Spiritual master, even when he was not physically present to meet a person. Now that his body is not circumambulating the earth, some people like GKD have took it upon themselves to speculate that Srila Prabhupada has now withdrawn his mercy and one can no longer be linked up by initiation to an uttama spiritual master as he used to offer. Even though Srila Prabhupada ordered everyone to continue using the system that gave them and all who came before them that merciful opportunity, they now reject it. Instead those like GKD now say. Come to Iskcon. You are not guaranteed to get initiation from an uttama adhikari. As a matter of fact, we can not and will not tell you how qualified any of the devotees are who seek to be your teacher and initiator. All we can tell you is there are probably some advanced devotees. You just need to become advanced enough to tell who is advanced, which you can't before surrendering to a Guru and giving him service, so just close your eyes, spin around 3 times, pick a guru, and hope for the best OK. And they claim this is better than following Srila Prabhupada's ordered system where everyone gets his diksa shelter even if they can't meet him in person, and no one gets stuck with an anal probing neophyte madman as diksa guru. The contrast is striking. Hell vs. Heaven. |
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote: |
Bhaktatraveler
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com>
Cc: amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; cc...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; lak...@webtv.net; magf...@wowway.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; ma...@setmedic.com; markm...@yahoo.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; prabhupada...@pamho.net; sudhras...@gmail.com; urdh...@aol.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 9:13:59 PM
Subject: Re: The "When I Order" Argument
Bhaktatraveler
Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 9:29:02 PM
Subject: Re: The "When I Order" Argument
mark mclaughlin
| You say he used the system when he was restricted by time place and circumstance, but did not when he was personally present and able. I agree. Which is why the ritvik system continues to assist him, after all, since disappearing, he has a new restriction on him. As for appointing people, are you that dull? Too bad you didn't catch Srila Prabhupada's order to be independently thoughtful. If you know what results are expected from an office, you know who to appoint to that office. The ritviks are senior 2nd initiates who need to know the initiation system, and need to be able to assess a temple president and his ability to make smart recommendations for initiation. A regionally local senior TP or ex-TP would fit the bill just fine for regional ritvik. Brahmanas figure these things out among themselves quite easily. As for your speculation about Srila Prabhupada's confidence in having so-called Granddisciples, he used that term ONLY once to describe what would happen if he ordered one of his disciples to become a regular guru and his disciple initiated a disciple. Of course, he never ordered anyone to be an initiating guru in his asrama now did he? If anyone actually became qualified as an uttama adhikari, he would have the potency to leave Srila Prabhupada's temples alone and just go out and start his own asrama with its own rules and take diksa disciples without limit. So we can be sure that all those who are swarming around Srila Prabhupada's properties to use for their personality cults are certainly not worthy of the title Diksa Guru. Maybe Daksa guru. |
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote: |
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mark mclaughlin
| B.Mark said. |
"And he was so kind to offer his own uttama self to take the responsibility for as many as wanted to take him as Spiritual master, even when he was not physically present to meet a person." |
| GKD replied. "THIS IS FICTION." MY REPLY: You know what I meant. All those who became His initiated disciple who never got to meet Srila Prabhupada fit the bill. The fact that if they maybe could have saved some money, received inside info about what temple SP might be at next month, flown to that country and hoped the inner star chamber devotees let him sleep in the basement of the asrama just to get a glimpse of Prabhupada across the room doesn't count. He was effectively not available to them in Vapu form. And never met them. But these people were linked to uttama adhikari. I have faith that Krsna always provides an uttama adhikari. Because the last one said he would give diksa for at least the next 10000 years. So I know whatever you knucklehead neophytes go ahead and blunder up, it cannot prevent those sincere seekers from being linked up to Srila Prabhupada's merciful diksa and Siksa most importantly. You guys are actually the dogs barking at Srila Prabhupada's caravan and I predict you will not produce ONE uttama adhikari in the next 100 years, if not the whole golden age. Your branch will probably wither and die quickly as there aren't enough dumb demons in hell to prop up your cult for very long. Then again you may live and thrive as a vast colony of fanatic neophytes who expand to an entire continent. Complete with your Vatican full of Pope Gurus, Cardinal Gurus, Temple Bishops, and unholy inquisitions. We will come in and find the underground resistance create an underground railroad, and subvert your power from within. It'll be fun. Ready, Set, Go. |
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote: |
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To: "mark mclaughlin" <markm...@yahoo.com> |
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Rasananda ACBSP
> > Srila
> Prabhupada deputed the GBC body to act on his behalf, so on Srila
> Prabhupada's behalf, the GBC body orders one to become guru. This means
> that the original 11 were all bogus, because they tricked the GBC into
> thinking that they had been appointed gurus by Srila Prabhupada, but those
> who were approved by the GBC after the "appointment" was shown to be a
> hoax are not necessarily bogus.
With regard to the last point (" [...] those who were approved by the GBC
after the "appointment" was shown to be a hoax are not necessarily bogus") -
I think that it depends on their attitude at the time. Krishna's name is
Bhava Grahi Janardana - the One who sees the attitide, the intent of the
candidate in bhakti - and as His jivamsas we have that ability to limited
degrees. I could have assessed the attitudes of the GBC members at the time
according my personal ability, but I never felt that researching and trying
to disncover what they were was warranted because they have never (and still
have not to date) significantly publicly repudiated their complicity with
the 'gang of eleven'.
Your servant
rd
Pratyatosa
In any case, it's probably not a very good example of devotees using their own intelligence without a direct order from Srila Prabhupada.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
july9th
> Dear Prabhus, PAMHO. AGTSP!
>
> I don't think that "Become guru when I order." is a very good argument.
> Srila Prabhupada deputed the GBC body to act on his behalf,
In 1975, Srila Prabhupada approved the following definition for the
GBC, which set out the exact parameters within which the GBC could
act:
"The GBC has been established by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta
Swami Prabhupada to represent Him in carrying out the responsibility
of managing the International Society for Krishna Consciousness of
which He is the Founder-Acharya and supreme authority. The GBC accepts
as its life and soul His divine instructions and recognises that it is
completely dependent on His mercy in all respects. The GBC has no
other function or purpose other than to execute the instructions so
kindly given by His Divine Grace and preserve and spread His Teachings
to the world in their pure form." (Definition of GBC, GBC Resolutions
1975)
Thus the governing body was set strict parameters within which it
could act.
The above resolution makes it clear that:
a) The GBC can ONLY execute instructions given by Srila Prabhupada
b) The GBC must maintain without change these instructions
"The GBC has no other function or purpose other than to execute the
instructions so kindly given by His Divine Grace and preserve and
spread His Teachings to the world in their pure form."
PD:
> Prabhupada's behalf, the GBC body orders one to become guru.
For this scenario to be bona-fide the GBC has to show where Srila
Prabhupada gave such an order,
"The GBC has NO other function or purpose other than to execute the
instructions so kindly given by His Divine Grace and preserve and
spread His Teachings to the world in their pure form."
PD:
> the original 11 were all bogus, because they tricked the GBC into thinking
> that they had been appointed gurus by Srila Prabhupada, but those who were
> approved by the GBC after the "appointment" was shown to be a hoax are not
> necessarily bogus.
As stated previously the GBC has to show where Srila Prabhupada gave
such an order,
"The GBC has NO other function or purpose other than to execute the
instructions so kindly given by His Divine Grace and preserve and
spread His Teachings to the world in their pure form."
PD:
> the July 9th letter, but they also ignored the voting portion of the DOM for
> 40 years, 7 of those years when Srila Prabhupada was personally present to
> chastise them for their non-compliance, but he never did.
He certainly never made a major issue of it, for whatever reason which
will no doubt become clear eventually.
july9th
>
> Ys, Ptd
As mentioned previously the "Definition of GBC" from the GBC
Resolutions of 1975, approved by Srila Prabhupada state:
"The GBC has no other function or purpose other than to execute the
instructions so kindly given by His Divine Grace and preserve and
spread His Teachings to the world in their pure form."
"The Ptd has no other function or purpose other than to execute the
july9th
Miraculous Accomplishments from 1965 to 1977":
"He instructed his disciples in 1967 to start an incense business to
provide financial support for the temples. Within four years the
business, Spiritual Sky Incense, generated an annual revenue of one
million dollars (equivalent to $4,600,000 in 2004)."
Confirmed by Srila Prabhupada's letters:
"If there is labor cheap you can organize there some incense
manufacturing concern. I wish that in every center we shall now
manufacture incense very good quality. The only thing you have to
assured to get the splinters or the thin sticks. If you think it will
be possible to get, then immediately start the work. The ingredients
are the splinters, charcoal, starch or gum and essential oils. It will
be very lucrative business and the profits will be sufficient to
maintain the center once you begin the work. I will give you many
business ideas by which you can accumulate nice profits. For business
four things are required. Namely place, labor, capital and
organization. For incense we have already organization. Little capital
you are gathering. The poverty place means you can get cheap labor and
the place you have already in your possession. Guidance, I am present.
So do it immediately and there will be no scarcity of money. I hope
you understand me right."
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Krsna Devi -- San Francisco 16 December, 1967
2I have already given you a business suggestion namely manufacturing
incense locally. Once you are successful in this attempt you will get
money more than your expectation and spend it for Krishna's service. I
hope you will understand me right and do the needful."
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Subala -- San Francisco 16 December, 1967
"In addition if you can begin production of of spiritual sky incense
there, that will be helpful."
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Sudama -- Surat 30 December, 1970
New Dvaraka's 1996 Vyasa Puja offering states:
To help support the grhasthas and fund temples, you gave the idea for
an incense business. Inspired by your vision, the Spiritual Sky
incense company soon monopolized the incense market and grew into a
multi-million dollar business. Thus you relieved the financial
anxieties of the temple and the grhasthas.
On Jul 4, 2:13 am, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mahesh Raja
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Please accept my humble obeisances
Hare Krsna!
I wish to share some of my realizations:
Quotes are there BUT whatever you say they want to move the goalpost. They are motivated by LUST to enjoy the material world of positions power money . Whatever you say they ignore/misinterpret. Many of these folks have done some truly wonderful service distributed Srila Prabhupada's books profusely, built temples, etc unfortunately however they have become worshipers direct/indirect of Gaudiya Math's Sridhara Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja who taught them anything goes: - THEY are worshipable guru. So they have taken to their SHELTER mantra that they are "worshipable guru" now. They gave-up Srila Prabhupada's SHELTER!!!
Srila Prabhupada was the ONLY ONE who was NON-COMPROMISING because he wanted his disciples to make GENUINE progress back home back to Godhead.
When Srila Prabhupada gave the position of Ritvik Representative of Acarya they thought it was just "small position" . It was NOT. This was a RESPONSIBLE postion WITH the benefit of ability to ATTAINING postion far far SUPERIOR - svarupa siddhi BACK TO GODHEAD.
Since Srila Prabhupada gave NO DIKSA GURU power postions money they vented their anger towards Srila Prabhupada.
751028mw.nai Conversations
Murkhayopadeso hi prakopaya na santa...: To give good instruction to a fool rascal will increase his anger, that's all." Gaudiya Math taught them POWER, POSITIONS MONEY IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT. Srila Prabhupada taught different : VAIRAGIYA - RENUNCIATION and Service to Lord Krsna was the ANSWER to attain the TOPMOST postion of ETERNAL SERVANT IN CONSTITUTIONAL RELATIONSHIP (our svarupa dasya,sakhya,vatslaya, madhyura rasa).
They can not EVEN SEE many of their friends practically die SO MISERABLY eg Suhotra Swami - died in LAVATORY in Mayapura, Tamal Krsna Goswami - went head first thru car windscreen. So what is level of consciousness?
It is ABSORPTION IN the consciousness that carries the soul to the next body. In the OCEAN of birth and death they are GONE. Who knows where they are? Now, according to their ABSORPTION in consciousness they will take their births body after body after body IT MAY BE SNAKES, SCORPIONS, JACKALS ETC in the material world and MANY MANY MANY CREATIONS COME AND GO. So UNFORTUNATE they GAVE-UP Srila Prabhupada's shelter FOR Sridhara Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja's BOGUS self-made guru buisness. WHAT was their ACTUAL gain? Just a FEW years of sense-gratification of MONEY POWER POSITION - thats all.
SB 5.14.41 P The Material World as the Great Forest of Enjoyment
brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija (Cc. Madhya 19.151)
Even if one wanders for many millions of years, from the time of creation until the time of annihilation, one cannot get free from the path of material existence unless one receives shelter at the lotus feet of a pure devotee. As a monkey takes shelter of the branch of a banyan tree and thinks he is enjoying, the conditioned soul, not knowing the real interest of his life, takes shelter of the path of karma-kanda, fruitive activities. Sometimes he is elevated to the heavenly planets by such activities, and sometimes he again descends to earth. This is described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as brahmanda bhramite. However, if by Krsna's grace one is fortunate enough to come under the shelter of the guru, by the mercy of Krsna he receives lessons on how to execute devotional service to the Supreme Lord. In this way he receives a clue of how to get out of his continuous struggle up and down within the material world. WHAT A COLLOSAL LOSS DEVIATING FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA!!!!
ys mahesh |
|
Bhaktatraveler
From: rep <r...@pamho.net>
To: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Cc: amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; cc...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; lak...@webtv.net; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; markm...@yahoo.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; magf...@wowway.com; yasod...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; urdh...@aol.com; Prabhupada Disciples <Prabhupada...@pamho.net>
Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 8:43:00 AM
Subject: Re: The "When I Order" Argument
Someone wrote ">
>Srila Prabhupada never once ordered anyone to be guru...>
This is one of the most absurd statements I have heard anyone make. There are
too many statements to quote so I'll just give one reference.
"So in whatever position you are, you try to understand the science of Kåñëa.
Then you become guru. That is Caitanya Mahäprabhu's mission.
yäre dekha, täre kaha 'kåñëa'-upadeça
ämära äjïäya guru haïä tära' ei deça
[Cc. Madhya 7.128]
This is Caitanya Mahäprabhu's mission. He says, "You become a spiritual
master." "How? I have no qualification." "No. You just accept my order?" "So
what is your order, sir?" Yäre dekha, täre kaha 'kåñëa'-upadeça: [Cc. Madhya
7.128] "You simply speak the instruction of Kåñëa whoever you meet. Then you
become a spiritual master."
That is Srila Prabhupada - repeating Mahaprabhu - ordering one to become guru.
ys
ganesadasa
> PAMHO AGTSP
>
> On Jul 3, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Pratyatosa wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 8:30 PM, mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Srila Prabhupada never once ordered anyone to be guru. Therefore the logic
> where I come from says that if the GBC is going to act on his behalf, they
> would not be ordering anyone to be a Guru.
> >
> > Srila Prabhupada always encouraged us to use our intelligence in his
> > service.
> When I started the Bhaktivedanta Tape Ministry in 1971, I was a lowly newly
> initiated brahmacari who had no direct order from Srila Prabhupada to do such
> a thing. Yet Srila Prabhupada always gave me every indication that he was
> very pleased that this bold leap forward had been accomplished.
> >
>
> Or anyone else for that matter?
>
Dulal Chandra dasa
> On Jul 3, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Pratyatosa wrote:
> Srila Prabhupada never once ordered anyone to be guru...>
I have heard of one Indian godbrother who was ordered by Srila Prabhupada to accept disciples from his village even during Prabhupada's presence. If my aging memory serves me, I believe I have read this in a correspondence from Gaura Keshava Prabhu some time back. My wife also spoke at length to one of his (our India Godbrother's) disciples at the Krishna Balaram installation in Alachua recently where he related the incidence of the GBC approaching him and demanding he stop taking disciples shortly after Srila Prabhupada's physical departure. Interestingly enough he refused their (the GBC's) order because is was in opposition to Srila Prabhupada's direct personal instruction.
Hopefully Gaura Keshava's sharp memory can provide more specifics.
Your servant,
Dulal Chandra dasa
Mahesh Raja
Prabhus All Glories to Srila Prabhupada |
|
Hare Krsna! Gaura Kesava das IS IGNORANT - he does NOT understand what DIKSA is AT ALL. Therefore you will notice he brings up the issue that Kanistha and Madhyama can give Diksa. ALL it is said in the quote is they can also accept disciples. NO DIKSA is mentioned AT ALL!
NOI 5 purport |
|
Below, I have done a reply to Rocan prabhu. Perhaps Nara Narayana Visvakarma prabhu his friend can pop some good sensible advise to Gaura Kesava das that MADHYAMA IS THE RECEPIENT OF DIKSA. Uttama Adhikari gives DIKSA.
Part 2 Reply to Rocana das Prabhu on his compilation “Church of Ritvik 2003”
Rocana das: “If one reads the above Purport, which contains the statement used by the HKS to support their position, it is clear that Srila Prabhupada is suggesting that a guru should ideally be an uttama-adhikari. We have to keep in mind, however, the fact that Srila Prabhupada is Himself an uttama-adhikari and a Sampradaya Acarya. At the time Nectar of Instruction was published, the reader had a choice to take initiation directly from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada also clearly says in this quote that there are gurus in all three categories: kanistha, madhyama, and uttama-adhikari. He does not state that he is referring here to diksa gurus rather than siksa gurus. He does state that the problem with having a guru that is not uttama-adhikari is that the initiated can't advance beyond the level of their guru's realization. Consequently, he cautions that the disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as their guru. He does not say, however, that gurus in the other two categories are bogus, or are not part of the sampradaya, or are just pretending to be gurus but are actually not gurus. Clearly, the Hare Krishna Society would like you believe that he is saying these things. While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru”.
Mahesh: Rocana Prabhu, with all due respect – your point “they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru. “ - is NOT valid.
We will study your implications in detail: 1) If Maha-bhagavata is NOT accepted as Diksa guru THEN it is 3rd offence in chanting.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse maha-bhagavata-srestho brahmano vai gurur nrnam sarvesam eva lokanam asau pujyo yatha harih
The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class.
NoI 5 Therefore a disciple should be CAREFUL to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
So - Neither a Kanistha or Madhyama are acceptable as “Diksa” gurus.
2) Now we will study what Diksa is because we want to determine if Kanistha or Madhyama can give Diksa. Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):
divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sanksayam tasmad dikseti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih
"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."
Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri' s Devotional Service Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination. BUT since Kanistha adhikari (QUALIFIED Brahmana) is HIMSELF contaminated HOW CAN HE GIVE DIKSA to another WHO becomes freed from ALL material contamination. This is completely illogical!
Bg 7.14 P Knowledge of the Absolute Another meaning of guna is rope; it is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly tied by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself--he must be helped by a person who is unbound. Because the bound cannot help the bound, the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore, only Lord Krsna, or His bona fide representative the spiritual master, can release the conditioned soul.
SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation The word vidhuta, meaning "cleansed," is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango 'sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. 770214r2.may Conversations arcayam eva haraye The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
3) Madhyam adhikari is the RECEPIENT of Diksa so HOW can we say that he gives Diksa? Madhyama adhikari means MIDDLE stage he is at the RECEIVING end of Diksa.
NoI 5 Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana TRANSLATION "At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
TEXT 193 sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya TRANSLATION "When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
TEXT 194 martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma TRANSLATION " 'The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.' PURPORT This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139). ANTYA 4 TEXT 193 "When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Bg 4.19 T Transcendental Knowledge yasya sarve samarambhah TRANSLATION One is understood to be in full knowledge whose every act is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker whose fruitive action is burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge. PURPORT Only a person in full knowledge can understand the activities of a person in Krsna consciousness. Because the person in Krsna consciousness is devoid of all kinds of sense-gratificatory propensities, it is to be understood that he has burned up the reactions of his work by *perfect knowledge of his constitutional position as the eternal servitor* of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is actually learned who has attained to such perfection of knowledge. Development of this knowledge of the eternal servitorship of the Lord is compared to fire. Such a fire, once kindled, can burn up all kinds of reactions to work.
4) Srila Prabhupada does NOT say that Madhyama Adhikari or Kanistha adhikaris are Diksa guru in the paragraph (NOI 5). So NOBODY should PRESUME they are diksa guru. Insufficent guidance means INSTRUCTION (SIKSA). The quote is NOT talking about DIKSA. So what Rocana Prabhu has done is PRESUME they are diksa guru just because it says they can accept disciples. Siksa guru can ALSO accept disciples. One does not have to become Diksa guru to accept disciples. Srila Prabhupada ONLY states their ability to accept disciples which means they CAN be siksa guru.
NoI 5 In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
Note: Kanistha and Madhyama CAN be Siksa guru: Adi 11.13 The Expansions of Lord Nityananda It is said that Abhirama Thakura had a whip and that whoever he touched with it would immediately become an elevated devotee of Krsna. Among his many disciples, Sriman Srinivasa Acarya was the most famous and the most dear, but it is doubtful that he was his initiated disciple.
5) So we have established Madhyama and Kanistha can act as Siksa guru and accept disciples BUT there is a problem a BIG problem in that too - the disciples belong to those who give them discipline. Srila Prabhupada has given ALL the DISCIPLINE starting with his books, tapes, Cds, Chanting 16 rounds of "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare This means ANYONE who is being DISCIPLINED by the above is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. The rest are just opportunists. Also see: http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
It is best not to accept any disciples. Madhya 7.130 The Lord' s Tour of South India The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn't matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one's life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, "I am a first-class devotee." Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
6) NoI 5 One should NOT become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Note: So the very fact that Madhyama and Kanistha adhikari have to ATTAIN the platform of Uttama Adhikari before becoming spiritual master means that effectively counts them out as Diksa Guru. One who disobeys the spiritual master HOW can he be Guru?
Note: that then, concludes that one who disobeys Srila Prabhupada the Bonafide Diksa Guru Sampradaya Acarya for ISKCON for as long as ISKCON exists is: He's most dangerous. He is opportunist 760628bj.nv Conversations Pusta Krsna: What about the so-called gurus that take a little bit here and a little bit there? Prabhupada: So-called gurus, they are so-called gurus. They are not gurus. That is already explained. If one does not speak what Krsna speaks, he is not guru. If you accept so-called guru, that is your misfortune. What can be done? Pusta Krsna: Some of them will say some things that Krsna says, but they'll take from other places also. What is the position of such persons? Prabhupada: He's most dangerous. He's most dangerous. He is opportunist. He's finding out customer, something here... According to the customer he is giving something, as the customers will be pleased. So he is not guru. He's a servant. He wants to serve the so-called disciples so that he may be satisfied and pay him something. He's servant. He's not guru. Guru is the master. You cannot disobey guru. But if you become a servant, you want to please the disciple by flattering him to get his money, then you are not guru, you are servant. Just like a servant pleases the master. He's not guru. He's servant. So our position should be servant, yes, but servant of the Supreme. So guru means heavy. You cannot utilize him for satisfying your whims. That is not guru.
The whole issue is ENVY towards Srila Prabhupada. Why not Ritvik initiation? BECAUSE they want to COMPETE with Srila Prabhupada the BONAFIDE guru. INFLATED EGOS.
ys mahesh
|
mark mclaughlin
| Well spoken Mahesh Prabhu. The evidence is there. Iskcon was assured that all who approach would receive initiation from an uttama adhikari. This means there is no need for speculation as to which disciple of Srila Prabhupada's is a neophyte, which is madhyama, etc. No need for large groups of devotees to spend years wasting time analyzing each other to see who may or may not be able to give initiation. Everyone else who wants to give initiation does so outside of Iskcon. Problem solved. Neophyte, intermediate or advanced, it does not matter. This keeps Iskcon pure, because everyone gets initiation from Srila Prabhupada. Of course the Guru wannabees hate that proposition. They would rather disobey, open the doors to the public for them to find hundreds of lesser qualified men, and tell these new people that they should really become educated in the philosophy to choose a proper master, but there really is no time to do that, so just choose, it won't be all that bad in the beginning, and if your Master turns out later to be a monster, you will have learned a few things by then and maybe you will choose a nicer monster next time. Truly hellish. --- On Sun, 7/4/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
|
tim lee
could do so? Because Srila Prabhupada says the direct opposite:
Gurusuh narah matih narakah sah, anyone who says gurus are falling down is a resident of hell. As soon as Nitai said gurus fall down he was kicked out of ISKCON, so Bhakta is officially kicked out. More importantly, Bhakta is the person who assigns guru titles to the GBC's falling and failing guru program members, in fact Bhakta just wrote to tell me that a GBC guru is bona fide (because that guru supports that gurus are engaged in illicit sex). So BHAKTA DASA appointed these bogus ISKCON gurus, Bhakta supports that gurus have illicit sex with men, women and children because the guru he recommends does, not Srila Prabhupada.
Gaura Keshava is in the basic same boat. He says we need to find gurus in ISKCON, never mind he knows his gurus are falling down, left, right and center. He is another person who has appointed these false gurus, not Srila Prabhupada.
Guru Kripa says we are potty mouths because we do not accept what he says are his "bhogha fried acharyas." He is another person who has aided and abetted these false gurus by ommission if not commission. And now Guru Kripa's best friend Bhakta tells us we need to worship Bhakti Vikas swami, a member of their bhogha fired acharyas program. All of the above are the persons who appointed these fools as acharyas, and are responsible for all the banning, beating, molesting and assassinating. Notice, Bhakta wants us to worship what Guru Kripa says are bhogha fried acharyas, so they appointed their own bhogha fried persons as acharyas, not Srila Prabhupada.
As for NNV, he wants our new bhaktins to go to the Los Angeles temple and preach that they are going to vote out Jayapataka with votes, so the new bhaktins will be imperiled, while he sits around typing orders to these people on a computer. No, the warriors have to be at the front of the battle, not hiding behind the skirts or young women. We have some brand new young followers of Srila Prabhupada and NNV wants them to go and have their lives imperiled with his idea that they should go and approach temple goondas and tell them we are going to vote out their gurus, so that NNV can get our new people beaten. No wonder he says the ritviks are bogus, he is our sending young girls into the battle so he can protect himself. So he is another person who is therefore responsible for all the guru mayhem, because he has never distributed one position paper at the LA temple the whole time I was there, while I was handing out poison tapes. He wants our young women
and new people to fight for him. A couch potato general, who sends women into battle.
So the bottom line is that Srila Prabhupada never appointed gurus, Tamal said it is a myth that he appointed gurus, so who appointed these gurus, and who is still defending these illicit sex with men, women and children guru lineage folks, it is Bhakta dasa, Gaura Keshava dasa, the GBC, and all their ilk. So they are responsible for all the ensuing mayhem. And now Ganesha dasa says that there are many quotes where Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC's -- illicit sex with men, women and children -- gurus? No, there are no such quotes. ys pd
july9th
Iskcon.
Reply:
Right but there is still the issue of authorization. Just like Srila
Prabhupada started his own society but he had his guru's
authorisation....
Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of
Krsna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru
parampara. (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)
So if they are qualified and authorized by Srila Prabhupada then thy
are bona-fide, otherwise all bogus!
"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and
therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krsna Consciousness. It
requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities."
(SP Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)
"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming
in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor
spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."
(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)
Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru
can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise
nobody can become guru. (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)
On Jul 4, 3:14 pm, mark mclaughlin <markmac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well spoken Mahesh Prabhu.
>
> The evidence is there. Iskcon was assured that all who approach would receive initiation from an uttama adhikari.
>
> This means there is no need for speculation as to which disciple of Srila Prabhupada's is a neophyte, which is madhyama, etc. No need for large groups of devotees to spend years wasting time analyzing each other to see who may or may not be able to give initiation.
>
> Everyone else who wants to give initiation does so outside of Iskcon. Problem solved. Neophyte, intermediate or advanced, it does not matter. This keeps Iskcon pure, because everyone gets initiation from Srila Prabhupada.
>
> Of course the Guru wannabees hate that proposition. They would rather disobey, open the doors to the public for them to find hundreds of lesser qualified men, and tell these new people that they should really become educated in the philosophy to choose a proper master, but there really is no time to do that, so just choose, it won't be all that bad in the beginning, and if your Master turns out later to be a monster, you will have learned a few things by then and maybe you will choose a nicer monster next time.
>
> Truly hellish.
>
>
> read more »
Pratyatosa
As far as our godbrothers starting their own institutions outside of ISKCON with no obvious direct order from Srila Prabhupada to be diksa gurus, it's not really any of our business. Therefore, let's simply try not to be envious and "let the market decide." In other words, judge by the result.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
july9th
“When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept
disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own
disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told
me that.” ( GBC voted-in guru, Gaura Govinda Swami's Darshan,
11/24/89, wherein he relates the secret “personal whisper” evidence
for his guruship).
Note that this claim was only made in 1989 before then it was a secret
for all those years. However by 1989 so many gurus had fallen and the
system was in turmoil, and he saw an opportunity to stake his claim.
I wonder why we NEVER got this in May 1977:
Satsvarupa Goswami: Then our next question concerns initiations in the
future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We
want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I whispered to Gaura Govinda Swami, he's going
to be my conductor of first and second initiations. After this is
settled up
Dulal Chandra dasa> Hopefully Gaura Keshava's sharp memory can provide
more specifics.
Ha, for specifics we require quotes from our guru Srila Prabhupada. If
Gaura Keshava's sharp memory can elaborate on those specifics from our
guru Srila Prabhupada, then let's hear them.
july9th
> These are excellent quotes, July 9th Prabhu. They completely smash the idea
> that Srila Prabhupada ever ordered any of his disciples to become diksa
> gurus. And he never authorized anyone, except the GBC body, to act on his
> behalf.
He authorized lots of people to act on his behalf not only the GBC,
all his disciples were supposed to be his representatives, as such
acting on Srila Prabhupada's behalf.
PTD:
> diksa guru, his guruship status is very much suspect.
This stated scenario is what we have NOW. I don't know if you saw that
quote i posted earlier somewhere.....
anything other than execute the instructions given to them by Srila
Prabhupada. Thus if Srila Prabhupada never gave any order for diksa
gurus then the GBC has NO authority to do so.
"The GBC has NO other function or purpose other than to execute the
mark mclaughlin
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote: |
| These are
excellent quotes, July 9th Prabhu. They completely smash the idea that
Srila Prabhupada ever ordered any of his disciples to become diksa
gurus. And he never authorized anyone, except the GBC body, to act on his behalf. Therefore, unless the GBC body gives permission for one to act as a diksa guru, his guruship status is very much suspect. |
| Prabhu, Your idea is that since the GBC is authorized to act on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, it follows that the GBC are invested with all of the powers and abilities of the liberated Acarya. This is a mistake, because the position of GBC is an appointed/elected office with specific duties and restrictions. These are itemized and recorded so as to not create any confusion or leave room for anyone to speculate on what the GBC may or may not have the authority to do. Srila Prabhupada never authorized the GBC to ordain anyone as Diksa Guru. Srila Prabhupada was very clear about what the GBC was authorized to do or not do. Ordaining diksa gurus was not part of that list. I challenge you to show the hard evidence. Unfortunately your speculation severely lacks the ingredients of proper deduction. |
| Even the
GBC approved gurus are suspect, because the GBC is still composed of,
together with their supporters, the criminals that participated in the
Guru Appointment Hoax of 1978 through 1986. |
| GBC has no power to approve anyone to give Diksa in Iskcon asramas. Not in their job description. |
As far as our godbrothers starting their own institutions outside of ISKCON with no obvious direct order from Srila Prabhupada to be diksa gurus, it's not really any of our business. Therefore, let's simply try not to be envious and "let the market decide." In other words, judge by the result. |
But it might be our business to encourage them to go ahead and start their own institutions outside of Iskcon in the hopes they might stop destroying and defacing Srila Prabhupada's property and just leave it behind. I wouldn't care a fig what they did once they leave the property they have stolen behind. Hare Krsna!! ys B.Mark Date: Sunday, July 4, 2010, 11:30 AM |
Pratyatosa
Please let it be known that this forum has a rule that's not included in the posting guidlines: "Anyone who says Gaura Govinda Swami is a pure devotee on this forum is automatically banned." My experience has been that there is no way to reason with these people. Trying to reason with them simply causes them to commit more and more offenses.
Gaura Govinda Swami preached that "back to Godhead" doesn't make any sense because we were never there in the first place! In this way, he is offensive to Srila Prabhupada. He was constantly criticizing the other ISKCON gurus. Thus, he seemed to be actively promoting himself as the only bona fide diksa guru within ISKCON. I've heard that there was danger of a big split within ISKCON over the issue, but Lord Sri Krishna solved the problem by removing him from the scene in a way that seemed somewhat auspicious.
Let's hope that he has once again met Srila Prabhupada face-to-face, and that Srila Prabhupada has corrected his misconception.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Perhaps this is what you are refering too?
“When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept
disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own
disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told
me that.” ( GBC voted-in guru, Gaura Govinda Swami's Darshan,
11/24/89, wherein he relates the secret “personal whisper” evidence
for his guruship).
Note that this claim was only made in 1989 before then it was a secret
for all those years. However by 1989 so many gurus had fallen and the
system was in turmoil, and he saw an opportunity to stake his claim.
I wonder why we NEVER got this in May 1977:
Satsvarupa Goswami: Then our next question concerns initiations in the
future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We
want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I whispered to Gaura Govinda Swami, he's going
to be my conductor of first and second initiations. After this is
settled up.
Pratyatosa
I don't think that we should be so hard on the GBC. The only thing that is going to work is gentle persuasion, and if that fails: lawsuits! "Speak softly and carry a big stick!"
BTW, where is this list of the GBC's specific duties and restrictions?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
mark mclaughlin
| That is a poor analogy Prabhu. Your service at the time was generally defined and you had limits. You had a goal of how to improve your specific limited realm of service. Necessity became the mother of invention, and you organized the material side of things in a new way in order to get an improved result. Any manager worth his salt gives his lower managers all the creative license in the world in order to deal with the modes of nature, because he is wise enough to know that is what brings success, not micromanagement that stifles a persons creative energy. The GBC are allowed to change what building they meet in. They can change their system of recording their minutes and resolutions from a stenographer using a PC to a robot using the newest holographic computer system. They cannot change the ritvik system, I am sure you would agree. Or the name of the society. Or the multitude of documented official orders. Even though not specificly prohibited, the blanket order of NO CHANGE IN MANAGEMENT covers these items. The NCIM order does not cover what method to use to record minutes, what building to meet in, what type of prasadam to serve during GBC meetings, etc. See the difference? GBC level devotees were trained by SP to recognize potential disciples and authorize them for initiation. They were trained through his books and words to recognize an uttama adhikari. They were NOT trained how to ordain anyone as guru. So we can't do something on Srila Prabhupada's behalf that he has not trained us, or authorized us to do. The best the GBC could do is to give a blessing to any person who felt themselves qualified to be a Diksa Guru and wanted to leave Iskcon and strike out on their own. I believe the uttamas in Iskcon will be more interested in improving the impoverished teaching/instructional mission and won't even think twice about taking diksa disciples, there is really just no need for it the way Iskcon is set up. The GBC has a mandate to make sure everyone who comes to Iskcon gets linked up by Diksa to the KNOWN VERIFIED AUTHORIZED UTTAMA SRILA PRABHUPADA. In the realm of Diksa, they really have no other concern to waste their time with. |
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
Pratyatosa
But your point is well taken. If the GBC would simply start, for the first time, to follow ALL of Srila Prabhupada's written, signed, legal documents, then they wouldn't have to work so hard on endless stopgap measures which quite often create even more problems.
You are certainly right about them wasting a tremendous amount of time on this silly guru business. They were so busy acting like immature adolescents by worrying about "Is my Vyasasana opulent enough?" and "Who has the most disciples?" and "How much guru-daksina am I going to get?" that they allowed hundreds of helpless gurukula (boarding school) children to get sexually molested/raped. This criminal negligence ended up costing ISKCON about US$15 million, I've been told. But what atonement have they performed? They are still flying all over the world, trying to imitate Srila Prabhupada like nothing has happened! Meanwhile, the temple presidents are left with a huge financial burden due to the criminal negligence of the GBC!
I'm keeping an open mind on the subject. The main thing that we have to guard against is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I don't think replacing the entire GBC is a good idea. Who would we replace them with? If I was offered the job, I would refuse. I would not even agree to be a temple president, what to speak of a GBC man. My forte is "temple treasurer," but now that I'm a vanaprastha, even that position would probably no longer be appropriate.
Ys, Ptd
The GBC keeps putting more and more restrictions on ISKCON's "gurus." They are getting closer and closer to SrilaPrabhupada's prescription that they only be ritviks. All that they have to do is to follow ISKCON Bangalore's example and admit it!"
mark mclaughlin
| In my opinion, until someone else can show me a good reason otherwise, I say ignore the current so-called GBC. Forget replacing, reforming, redacting, or recinding. Instead begin the slow and humble process of creating small preaching centers/temples, expanding to agriculture, and eventually create a GBC out of such willing people. They only thing the fakers have that I could possibly want is real-estate and cash. And there is plenty of that where their's came from. Krsna's mahat-tattva. We have the same potential to be provided for as they do. We just need to cooperate among the sincere like-minded who ALSO NEED TO reclaim a good 50% of their human energy back under their own productive control and stop wasting it on trying to wrestle something out of the Cheaters and cheated. Such a poor strategy is severely limiting and has not produced a modicum of result. I have tasted no fruit among the reformers of 30 years with any real juice to it. No thriving temple community where all exiles and outcasts are welcome and engaged. Just alot of effort wasted trying to get a bunch of other people to do what they don't want to do. Such mistaken endeavor expands and perpetuates itself by creating endless argument over how to go about doing a thing that is better off not done at all. We can do better. Hare Krsna |
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote: |
Date: Sunday, July 4, 2010, 2:04 PM |
Mahesh Raja
Nara Narayana Visvakarama prabhu wrote:
IN THIS PASSAGE IWE ARE CLEARLY A WARNED TO AVOID TAKING DIKSHA FROM A KANISTHA OR MADHYAM ADHIKARI.
My point is AGAIN this IT DOES NOT SAY DIKSA in THAT passage. Your ignorant friend Gaura Kesava ALSO refered that as Diksa.
Kanistha and Madhyama DO NOT give DIKSA. They have NO CAPABILITY.
KB 89 The Superexcellent Power of Krsna
Tama means darkness, and ut means above, transcendental; therefore, Uttama means above the darkest region of the material world. Diksa come from UTTAMA Adhikari. Transcendental Knowledge(dviya janana) of one's svarupa is revealed when Krsna is transferred from Uttama Adhikari's heart. When one comes before the sun he sees himself SIMULTANEOUS Self-Realization. Srila Prabhupada (UTTAMA Adhikari) GIVES that DIKSA.
Vasudeva was on the platfrom of Sattvam visuddham vasudeva-sabditam (Bhag. 4.3.23). Transcendental platform UTTAMA ADHIKARI so he was fit to GIVE DIKSA.
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva's mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one's own heart. SB 3.4.31 P Vidura Approaches Maitreya
The specific qualification for becoming the representative of the Lord is to be unaffected by the material modes of nature. The highest qualification of a person in the material world is to be a brahmana. But since a brahmana is in the mode of goodness, to be a brahmana is not sufficient for becoming a representative of the Lord. One has to transcend the mode of goodness also and be situated in unalloyed goodness, unaffected by any of the qualities of material nature. This stage of transcendental qualification is called suddha-sattva, or vasudeva, and in this stage the science of God can be realized. SB 8.5.29 P The Demigods Appeal to the Lord for Protection
Sattvam visuddham vasudeva-sabditam (Bhag. 4.3.23). In this material world, the three modes of material nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--prevail. Among these three, goodness is the platform of knowledge, and passion brings about a mixture of knowledge and ignorance, but the mode of ignorance is full of darkness. Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead is beyond darkness and passion. He is on the platform where goodness or knowledge is not disturbed by passion and ignorance. This is called the vasudeva platform. It is on this platform of vasudeva that Vasudeva, or Krsna, can appear. |
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To: "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> |
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Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.Below, I have done a reply to Rocan prabhu. Perhaps Nara Narayana Visvakarma prabhu his friend can pop some good sensible advise to Gaura Kesava das that MADHYAMA IS THE RECEPIENT OF DIKSA. Uttama Adhikari gives DIKSA.Part 2 Reply to Rocana das Prabhu on his compilation “Church of Ritvik 2003”
Rocana das:“If one reads the above Purport, which contains the statement used by the HKS to support their position, it is clear that Srila Prabhupada is suggesting that a guru should ideally be an uttama-adhikari. We have to keep in mind, however, the fact that Srila Prabhupada is Himself an uttama-adhikari and a Sampradaya Acarya. At the time Nectar of Instruction was published, the reader had a choice to take initiation directly from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada also clearly says in this quote that there are gurus in all three categories: kanistha, madhyama, and uttama-adhikari. He does not state that he is referring here to diksa gurus rather than siksa gurus. He does state that the problem with having a guru that is not uttama-adhikari is that the initiated can't advance beyond the level of their guru's realization. Consequently, he cautions that the disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as their guru. He does not say, however, that gurus in the other two categories are bogus, or are not part of the sampradaya, or are just pretending to be gurus but are actually not gurus. Clearly, the Hare Krishna Society would like you believe that he is saying these things. While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru”.
Mahesh: Rocana Prabhu, with all due respect – your point “they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru. “ - is NOT valid.
We will study your implications in detail:1) If Maha-bhagavata is NOT accepted as Diksa guru THEN it is 3rd offence in chanting.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be AvoidedThe offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Versemaha-bhagavata-sresthobrahmano vai gurur nrnamsarvesam eva lokanamasau pujyo yatha harih
The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, andthe guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class.
TEXT 194
martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
niveditatma vicikirsito me
tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vaiTRANSLATION
" 'The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.'
PURPORT
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).
ANTYA 4 TEXT 193
Bg 4.19 T Transcendental Knowledge
yasya sarve samarambhah
kama-sankalpa-varjitah
jnanagni-dagdha-karmanam
tam ahuh panditam budhahTRANSLATIONOne is understood to be in full knowledge whose every act is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker whose fruitive action is burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge.PURPORT
Only a person in full knowledge can understand the activities of a person in Krsna consciousness. Because the person in Krsna consciousness is devoid of all kinds of sense-gratificatory propensities, it is to be understoodthat he has burned up the reactions of his work by *perfect knowledge of his constitutional position as the eternal servitor* of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is actually learned who has attained to such perfection of knowledge. Development of this knowledge of the eternal servitorship of the Lord is compared to fire. Such a fire, once kindled, can burn up all kinds of reactions to work.
4) Srila Prabhupada does NOT say that Madhyama Adhikari or Kanistha adhikaris are Diksa guru in the paragraph (NOI 5). So NOBODY should PRESUME they are diksa guru. Insufficent guidance means INSTRUCTION (SIKSA). The quote is NOT talking about DIKSA.So what Rocana Prabhu has done is PRESUME they are diksa guru just because it says they can accept disciples. Siksa guru can ALSO accept disciples. One does not have to become Diksa guru to accept disciples.Srila Prabhupada ONLY states their ability to accept disciples which means they CAN be siksa guru.
NoI 5In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
Note: Kanistha and Madhyama CAN be Siksa guru:Adi 11.13 The Expansions of Lord NityanandaIt is said that Abhirama Thakura had a whip and that whoever he touched with it would immediately become an elevated devotee of Krsna. Among his many disciples, Sriman Srinivasa Acarya was the most famous and the most dear, but it is doubtful that he was his initiated disciple.
5) So we have established Madhyama and Kanistha can act as Siksa guru and accept disciples BUT there is a problem a BIG problem in that too - the disciples belong to those who give them discipline. Srila Prabhupada has given ALL the DISCIPLINE starting with his books, tapes, Cds, Chanting 16 rounds of"Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare HareThis means ANYONE who is being DISCIPLINED by the above is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. The rest are just opportunists.
Also see: http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
It is best not to accept any disciples.Madhya 7.130 The Lord' s Tour of South IndiaThe cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn't matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one's life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, "I am a first-class devotee." Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
6)NoI 5One should NOT become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be AvoidedThe offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
larry freeman p
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 22:08:35 +0000
From: mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
CC: lak...@webtv.net; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; praty...@gmail.com; amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; cc...@yahoo.com; das...@streamyx.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; magf...@wowway.com; ma...@setmedic.com; markm...@yahoo.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; urdh...@aol.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
larry freeman p
CC: lak...@webtv.net; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; praty...@gmail.com; amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; cc...@yahoo.com; das...@streamyx.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; magf...@wowway.com; ma...@setmedic.com; markm...@yahoo.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; sudhras...@gmail.com; urdh...@aol.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
tim lee
mark mclaughlin
| There is possibility for harmony here. Diksa initiation is only possible under authorized circumstances. In Iskcon in the 1970's there appeared to be a bunch of neophytes giving Diksa initiations. They chanted on the beads, conducted the yajna, chose the spiritual name. But without the authorization of the uttama, it would not have been bonafide. A neophyte or intermediate devotee in good standing, who was not prohibited by his Acarya from initiating, might be guided from within to do so. Or he might be ordered to do so. Either case would be bonafide due to higher authorization or at least an indifferent sanction. That does not change the fact that the relationship is insufficient to advance the disciple beyond the level of the Guru. Which considering the position of intermediate devotee, is actually kind of exalted now isn't it? It is not the ideal situation but if it was done in an authorized manner, the disciple can advance somewhat. As for those who accept Srila Prabhupada as their ULTIMATE SIKSA GURU, if they were to attempt to initiate within OR without the Iskcon asramas, they would immediately be in contempt of their Guru's order to initiate by Ritvik within, or their Guru's order that Diksa should be given by Uttamas. "A neophyte and intermediate devotee should always be anxious to hear the mahā-bhāgavata and serve him in every respect. " We can consider a devotee who has gone against Srila Prabhupada's system to be at best a naive low class neophyte, at worst a sinister neophyte. Both classes suffering from arrested social development and often lack of any conscience whatsoever. The thought of formally initiating disciples never even crosses the mind of strictly following neophyte and intermediate disciples of Srila Prabhupada. The process for creating Uttamas out of them is clearly laid out in the purport to CC Madhya 22.71. It describes the process that each neophyte and madhyama will go through in Srila Prababhupada's Iskcon Anyone who can study Srila Prabhupada's books (sastra) and associate with the First Class Uttama through the Bhaktivedanta Purports in those books, they will advance. The verses are sastra, the purports are the Uttama making the verses accessible to our monkey brains. CC Madhya 22.71 purport "It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikārī, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Kṛṣṇa consciousness but cannot support his convictions with śāstric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with śāstric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the śāstras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikārī, a first-class devotee." Hare Krsna! --- On Sun, 7/4/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Date: Sunday, July 4, 2010, 6:08 PM |
Mahesh Raja
Prabhus
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! |
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Please accept my humble obeisances
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Here are just a few realizations to share:
1) Initiations conducted in ISKCON today are - FORMALITIES nothing more than that.
2) Srila Prabhupada wanted Ritviks (Priests) to do just those FORMALITIES.
3)The Holy name INITIATION is GIVEN by Srila Prabhupada. HOW? Without Srila Prabhupada NONE of us would know what is Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.
COMMON-SENSE: Srila Prabhupada gave us the INITIATION.
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Mahesh Raja
| The following is on FORMALITIES |
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Formalities
BY: MAHESH RAJA
Sep 14, UK (SUN) — The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas. In his recent article, "Ravindra Svarupa's Role in the Guru Reform Movement", Rocana Prabhu wrote" “It's a fact, as Kurma dasa writes, that this system of voted-in gurus is nonsense. Of course, Kurma prabhu is trying to make out that Srila Prabhupada’s original program, which he thinks is synonymous with the current Rtvik system, should be put in place now. That’s where he and I have a different understanding. I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.” Since many of us support the July 9th 1977 ORDER of Ritvik System that Srila Prabhupada himself set-up AND NEVER RECINDED, I wish to respond to the above. The Ritvik System is just FORMALITIES, so as per Srila Prabhupada’s instructions: “The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.” It is being misconstrued as “introduce a new system”, BUT--FACTUALLY--it is ONLY FORMALITIES. Lets study the following in terms of FORMALITIES: 1) Srila Prabhupada as a sannayasi got his disciples married. There is no verification in sastra that a sannyasi can do this.
"Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one's qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society." Srila Prabhupada's Vyasapuja Lecture, August 22, 1973, London: "I'm sometimes criticized by my Godbrothers that I have become a marriage-maker, because a sannyasi does not take part in a marriage ceremony, but I get my disciples married. This is also unique in the history. So they criticize me that I have become a marriage-maker. But they, they do not know why I take this risk. I have got many disciples, they are married couples, but all of them, husband and wife, they are helping this movement. Here is Bhagavan dasa, he's also married man, children." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Satsvarupa, September 20, 1968: "In your letter of the 17th instant, you have very frankly inquired from me about householder life, especially in the matter of sex relationship. A sannyasi is not supposed to be asked about anything sexual. But still, because you are so much dependent on my instruction, so I must give you information as far as possible. Married life is not for sex indulgence. The principle of marriage is on the background of getting good children. So the householder is allowed to have sex life once in a month, just after the menstrual period. The menstrual period prolongs at least for 5 days, so after this 5 days, one can have sex life provided he desires to get a child. And as soon as the wife is pregnant, no more sex life, until the child is born and is grown up at least for 6 months. After that, one may have sex life on the same principle. If one does not want more than one or two children, he should voluntarily stop sex life. But one should not strictly use any contraceptive method and at the same time indulge in sex life. That is very much sinful. If the husband and wife can voluntarily restrain by powerful advancement of Krishna Consciousness. That is the best method. It is not necessary that because one has got wife, therefore you must have sex life. The whole scheme is to avoid sex life as far as possible. And if one can avoid it completely then it is a great victory for him. Married life is a sort of license for sex life on condition of raising children. So you should try to understand these principles of married life and use your discretion. You should not imitate great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura, but you must follow His footprints. But it is not always possible to have the same success as great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura achieved. So in all circumstances you should try to follow the footprints of authorities but never to imitate them. Unless Jadurani develops a better health and strength, I do not advise her to become pregnant. I think you will understand the instruction as I have given and try to follow it as far as possible." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sacisuta, July 5, 1969: "Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter dated June 23, 1969, and I have carefully gone over the contents. I am so pleased to learn that you are feeling very nicely in Buffalo temple and you are working hard and sincerely to push on this sublime movement of Krishna Consciousness. Regarding your question about marriage, the thing is that as I am a sannyasi, I am not concerned with family life, but because I want to see my disciples very happy in Krishna Consciousness, therefore, those who are feeling some sexual disturbance are requested by me to get themselves married." 2) Srila Prabhupada had disciples hear the TAPE of him giving Gayatri Mantra at brahmana initiation. There is no verification in sastra of this.
"At your recommendation I have gladly consented to accept Guy as my duly initiated disciple. His letter and beads are enclosed herewith. Also enclosed are three sacred threads duly chanted by me as well as four papers with Gayatri mantra for the four devotees you have recommended for second initiation. You should secure the tape of me reciting Gayatri mantra from Makhanlal in Seattle. Let each devotee hear the tape privately, one at a time, and through the right ear. They should have the paper in front of them and hear and repeat each word. Beforehand you can show them how to count on the fingers, and beforehand hold a fire yajna and get the threads on the boys' bodies." 3) Srila Prabhupada had the WIFE of one disciple read Gayatri mantra to a devotee. There is no verification in sastra of this.
"Even though you have had no gayatri mantra, still you are more than brahmana. I am enclosing herewith your sacred thread, duly chanted on by me. Gayatri mantra is as follows: [TAKEN OUT] Ask your wife to chant this mantra and you hear it and if possible hold a fire ceremony as you have seen during your marriage and get this sacred thread on your body. Saradia, or any twice-initiated devotee, may perform the ceremony. What Srila Prabhupada did was unprecedented in the history of Vaisnava sampradaya. But this did NOT mean he transgressed the sastra. On the contrary, sastra fully support Srila Prabhupada’s actions IN AS MUCH AS the Ritvik System is ALSO part and parcel of above FORMALITY, wherein the Ritvik Representatives are performing FORMALITIES, i.e., the fire sacrifice and name giving CEREMONIES. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.
"Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas." Srimad Bhagavatam 6.12.20 Purport - Vrtrasura' s Glorious Death: "Therefore Sukadeva Gosvami says in Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.4.18):
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah ye 'nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah "Kiratas, Hunas, Andhras, Pulindas, Pulkasas, Abhiras, Sumbhas, Yavanas and members of the Khasa races, and even others addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, for He is the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him." Anyone can be purified if he takes shelter of a pure devotee and molds his character according to the pure devotee's direction. Then, even if one is a Kirata, Andhra, Pulinda or whatever, he can be purified and elevated to the position of a maha-paurusya." Rocana Prabhu wrote: “I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.” Yes we agree - ALL Srila Prabhupada did was change FORMALITIES in the way initiation was to be conducted in first and second initiations: "The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas." BUT Diksa per say, when MADHYAMA adhikari receives is unchanged, as that is NOT formality (see Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality"). Srila Prabhupada in the July 9th, 1977 ORDER is FORMALITY of HOW 1st and 2nd initiations were to be conducted - and THAT is ALL it was. And THIS was the change in terms of FORMALITY, nothing more. The INITIATED disciples were to be Srila Prabhupada's DISCIPLES. How can you have disciples belonging to anyone else? Disciples belong to one who gives discipline. FACTUALLY we are ALL taking - DISCIPLINE - FROM Srila Prabhupada's books, CDs, Tapes. Common sense! |
mark mclaughlin
| Excellent points. A sound defeat of the "tradition-vadis" and the "parampara-vadis" I still think the subject line of this topic should read "UNAUTHORIZED" Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give Diksa. But you started it, I will let you change it unless you think my last presentation was wrong, but I haven't heard anything. Hare Krsna |
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: |
|
Anuttama devi dasi
himself to be lower than a straw in the street. In such a state of
consciousness the only way that person would act as a diksa guru would
be if he were to be personally ordered by his spiritual master to do
so. Otherwise he'd consider himself to be unqualified and would just
want to humbly serve his spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada is still
with us and able to order disciples to actually become guru. Without
such an order, any so-called guru is just a pretender. In the
meantime, I'll suggest that potential disciples accept the pure
devotee as the only way to achieve pure devotional service.
Ken McLEOD
What a wonderful system our bonafide GBC have created.
Find it at CarPoint.com.au New, Used, Demo, Dealer or Private?
Pratyatosa
I believe that a person nominates himself to become an Iskcon guru.
http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GuruApprovalRulesRevised.htm
"A candidate for guru in ISKCON must first receive a three-fourths majority vote of approval in a council composed of all the GBC zonal secretaries of his current preaching area and at least ten other senior devotees residing in his area of activity. The council will be organized and convened by the GBC zonal secretary(s)."
Therefore, if there is onlt one GBC zonal secretary, the local nominating council must have at least 11 members. In addition to voting, each member of the council must fill out the following checklist:
http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GuruQualificationChecklist.htm
In the case of my wife, as far as I know, one or more devotees requested to be her diksa disciples before she even considered accepting a nomination for the post of diksa guru. Then it was only on the advice of the local GBC zonal secretary that she finally decided to allow herself to be considered for nomination. From what I understand, this is a typical scenario.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Ken McLEOD
A local GBC asked your wife? Well even though that is ridiculas in itself, I understand that some of the voted in gurus lobbied in the first instance for themselves.
Of course someone asking someone else to nominate would all be above board wouldn't it?
Great system our bonafide GBC have created!
From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 02:19:26 -0400
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: The "When I Order" Argument
To: amey...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com; bhaktat...@yahoo.com; cc...@yahoo.com; hanto...@hotmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jay....@gmail.com; lak...@webtv.net; magf...@wowway.com; mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk; ma...@setmedic.com; markm...@yahoo.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; pdhed...@yahoo.com; prabhupada...@pamho.net; sudhras...@gmail.com; urdh...@aol.com; yasod...@yahoo.com
Ken McLEOD
"Self made Guru cannot be Guru. He must be authorized by the bona fide Guru. Then he's Guru. This is the fact...Similarly, bona fide Guru means he must be authorized by the superior Guru." (Srila Prabhupada Lecture October 31st 1972)
"...any GBC can present a diksa guru candidate before the GBc body.{..} and upon majority approval of the body, he may take up the responsibilities of an initiating guru in Iskcon." (GBC Resolution No 3, March 30th, 1986)
Where did Srila Prabhuada ever authorize the GBC to authorize diksa guru on His behalf?
The above authorization is coming from the votes of the GBC alone, and therefore it is Bogus!
Even Jayadvaita swami said that it was either wishful thinking or Fraud!
"That Srila Prabhupada "personally detailed the procedure for increasing the number of initiating guru{s}" is something that we can only wish. Or falsely tell the Society He did". (HH Jayadvaita Swam, analysis of the May 28th Conversation, December 13th, 2003, accepted by the GBC)
Therefore the guru ship is coming from a desire to be guru, which is then rubber stamped by the GBC.
It is not coming from a direct order from Srila Prabhupada.
Therefore it is Bogus!
From: kurmano...@live.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: The "When I Order" Argument
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:20:43 +1030
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Mahesh Raja
Dear Pratyatosa prabhu |
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All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
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please accept my humble obeisances
Hare Krsna!
I do not see HOW your wife Urmilla das can EVER be Diksa guru.
SB 4.12.32 P Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back to Godhead Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru. ys mahesh |
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Pratyatosa
I do not see HOW your wife Urmilla devi dasi can EVER be Diksa guru. |
SB 4.12.32 P Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back to Godhead Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru. |
Thanks for the quote. I'd forgotten about that one.
However, I expressed my thoughts on the subject of my wife's diksa guru nomination more than 7 years ago:
http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0309/ET20-8357.html
I still stand by every word of it.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that the GBC will ever approve my wife's nomination, not because of the reason you give, but because of the following:
1. She is married to me (a ritvik). Therefore, they don't trust her.
2. She knows Srila Prabhupada's books and tapes better than almost all of them, and is therefore considered "unfair competition."
3. She is a better public speaker than almost all of them, and is therefore considered "unfair competition" for that reason also.
4. Many young, beautiful bhaktins feel uncomfortable worshiping a less-than-fully-realized (lusty) male "guru." Therefore, this is another reason why she is considered "unfair competition."
Do you think that a GBC composed mainly of "gurus" would ever vote for what they consider to be such extremely troublesome competition? Not very likely, IMHO, unless she "had the goods on them!"
Therefore, "gurus" voting for competing "gurus" is an obvious conflict of interest. Therefore, the entire system is corrupt, and could potentially be the subject of yet another lawsuit.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
PS: From http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GBCRES2009.htm :
305. Female Diksa Gurus
[Action Order]
Whereas there is a factual need for more diksa-gurus in ISKCON to accommodate the worldwide preaching;
Whereas there are mature female preachers qualified to take on diksa-guru responsibilities;
Whereas there are a number of such qualified women who already have siksa disciples;
Whereas the GBC Body previously issued the following statement in 2005, which has now been given further consideration:
The GBC accepts the basic philosophical conclusion presented in the SAC's Female Diksa Guru Paper, i.e. that a mature, qualified, female devotee may accept the role of an initiating spiritual master. The implementation thereof is pending further GBC consideration.
RESOLVED:
1. That resolution 425/2005 “Female Diksa Guru” is amended to read as follows:
“The GBC accepts the philosophical conclusion presented in the SAC's Female Diksa Guru Paper that a mature, qualified, female devotee may accept the role of an initiating spiritual master.”
2. The GBC Body authorizes local area committees to put forward for approval as initiating guru any devotee in their area, male or female, who is qualified according to existing GBC Law.
mark mclaughlin
| There is an exception to every rule. Srila Prabhupada had the perrogative to make exceptions to his own rules. We follow his rule, not his exceptional behavior. Notice Srila Prabhupada did not broadcast this exception, if it is indeed true Gour Govinda was ordered in this way. Except for this one possible exception, Srila Prabhupada kept strictly to the rule as far as we all know, and gave us the rule to follow. Hare Krsna --- On Sun, 7/4/10, Dulal Chandra dasa <du...@krishnabhajan.com> wrote:
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Mahesh Raja
Nara Narayana Visvakarma prabhu |
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada
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Please accept my humble obeisances
Hare Krsna!
Thank-you very much for AGREEING with me that Kanistha and Madhyama can NOT give Diksa. There are NO exceptions.
I will also show further how the sastra is understood -properly- when you see the CONTEXT of application. Lets take the following:
SB 4.12.33 P Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back to Godhead
This incident proves that the siksa- or diksa-guru who has a disciple who strongly executes devotional service like Dhruva Maharaja can be carried by the disciple even though the instructor is not as advanced. Although Suniti was an instructor to Dhruva Maharaja, she could not go to the forest because she was a woman, nor could she execute austerities and penances as Dhruva Maharaja did. Still, Dhruva Maharaja was able to take his mother with him. Similarly, Prahlada Maharaja also delivered his atheistic father, Hiranyakasipu. The conclusion is that a disciple or an offspring who is a very strong devotee can carry with him to Vaikunthaloka either his father, mother or siksa- or diksa-guru. Now, In this statement it does NOT state that DIKSA guru is anything less than UTTAMA ADHIKARI. ALL it is said is "instructor is not as advanced" .
This does NOT mean DIKSA guru is Kanistha or Madhyama.
Depending on the CONTEXT Bhava is sometimes(SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE) said to refer as UTTAMA Adhikari . Why? because it is TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE (which is the point at which revelation begins). So the statement, "instructor is not as advanced" holds true that DIKSA guru is STILL UTTAMA adhikari--BUT he is not AS ADVANCED AS UTTAMA ADHIKARI ON THE PREMA STAGE.
Bhava and Prema stage are OUT OF MAYA.
NoI 7
Although maya may be present, it cannot disturb a devotee once he attains the bhava stage. This is because the devotee can see the real position of maya. Adi 7.83 Lord Caitanya in Five Features
In this verse it is explained that one who chants the Hare Krsna mantra develops bhava, ecstasy, which is the point at which revelation begins. It is the preliminary stage in developing one's original love for God. Lord Krsna mentions this bhava stage in the Bhagavad-gita (10.8): aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.
DIKSA GURU IS WITHOUT EXCEPTION MAHABHAGAVATA(UTTAMA-ADHIKARI) |
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
maha-bhagavata-srestho brahmano vai gurur nrnam sarvesam eva lokanam asau pujyo yatha harih |
maha-kula-prasuto 'pi
sarva-yajnesu diksitah sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca na guruh syad avaisnavah The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class.
This is why Srila Prabhupada had Ritvik system in operation - they were ALL conditioned souls WITHOUT exception. Srila Prabhupada IS the DIKSA guru for ISKCON FOR AS LONG AS ISKCON EXISTS.
ys mahesh |
--- On Mon, 5/7/10, Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net> wrote:
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Cc: "larry freeman p" <lak...@webtv.net>, "Bhaktatraveler" <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>, "Pratyatosa ACBSP" <praty...@gmail.com>, "Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP]" <amey...@gmail.com>, "ange...@yahoo.comlee" <ange...@yahoo.com>, "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>, "das...@streamyx.comChan" <das...@streamyx.com>, "John Hanton" <hanto...@hotmail.com>, "istag...@googlegroups.comgosthi" <istag...@googlegroups.com>, magf...@wowway.com, "Charlie French" <ma...@setmedic.com>, "mark mclaughlin" <markm...@yahoo.com>, miloni...@yahoo.com, "Patrick Hedemark" <pdhed...@yahoo.com>, "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>, "urdhvaga USA." <urdh...@aol.com>, "Yoland Y. Langevin" <yasod...@yahoo.com> |
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Pratyatosa
This is a very good point. It jogged my memory of the following relevant quotes at the beginning of my http://pratyatosa.com/AretheNewGurusGoodDevotees.htm web page:
"The truly advanced devotee sees that he is not a devotee but that everyone else is a devotee."--Srila Prabhupada
"Thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street, one should be more tolerant than a tree"--Lord Caitanya
"Anyone who has any desire or
aspiration for satisfying his senses by becoming more and more
important, either in the material sense or in the spiritual sense,
cannot actually relish the really sweet taste of devotional service"--Srila
Prabhupada
Greg Jay
On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru.
Bhaktatraveler
Cc: Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; "ange...@yahoo.com lee" <ange...@yahoo.com>; Bhaktatraveler Bahu <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>; "cc...@yahoo.com das" <cc...@yahoo.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; "istag...@googlegroups.com gosthi" <istag...@googlegroups.com>; "lak...@webtv.net p" <lak...@webtv.net>; magf...@wowway.com; "mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>; Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>; mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; "sudhras...@gmail.com das" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 1:41:10 PM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: The "When I Order" Argument
mark mclaughlin
I think the point is that if an exalted soul that we read about in the Bhagavatam is spoken of as restricted from giving Diksa because she is a woman, then it is safe to assume that all of us monkeys, male and female alike, DON'T HOLD A SPIRITUAL CANDLE TO DRUVA OR HIS MOTHER, AND THEREFORE SHOULD FOLLOW SRILA PRABHUPADA'S ORDER TO KEEP HIM AS THE INITIATOR GURU. It never ceases to amaze me how neophytes will bring up the situations of Haridas Thakur, Queen Kunti, and Ramananda Raya in order to rationalize exceptional acts beyond their real qualification, or to apologize for those acts of their worshippable fools. Date: Monday, July 5, 2010, 1:41 PM |
Mahesh Raja
Exception is NOT the rule. WHAT MAY BE THE REASON FOR THAT EXCEPTION - WE DO NOT KNOW. We have to follow Srila Prabhupada OUR GURU. HE SAID IT:WE ACCEPT IT. That's ALL. NO MENTAL SPECULATIONS. |
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You will notice NO WOMAN is represented in OUR DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION.
68-02-13. Letter: Upendra There are four Sampradayas from the beginning of the creation. One is called Brahma Sampradaya, and is coming down by disciplic succession from Brahma; another Sampradaya is coming down from Laksmi, called Sri Sampradaya; another is coming down from the Kumaras, they are known as Nimbarka Sampradaya; another Sampradaya is coming from Lord Siva, Rudra Sampradaya or Visnu Swami. These are four bona fide Sampradayas that are accepted by the bona fide spiritualists. The Impersonalist Sampradaya is not original neither the Impersonalist Sampradaya or party can help us. At the present moment there are so many Sampradayas, but we have to test them about their method of disciplic understanding. Anyway, all the four Sampradayas above mentioned, they are after worshipping the Supreme Lord Visnu, in His different Expansions, and some of them are in favor of worshipping Radha Krishna. In the later age the Brahma Sampradaya was handed down though Madhva Acarya; in this Madhva Acarya disciplic succession came Isvara Puri. This Isvara Puri was accepted as Spiritual Master of Lord Caitanya. Therefore, we being in disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, we are known as the Madhva Sampradaya. And because Lord Caitanya appeared in Bengal, which country is called Gaudadesa, our Sampradaya party is known as Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. But all these Sampradayas are non-different from one another because they believe and worship the Supreme Lord. Any other Sampradaya who are Impersonalist or voidist or non-devotee, they are rejected by us. MY GURU MAHARAJA WAS IN THE 10TH GENERATION FROM LORD CAITANYA. WE ARE 11TH FROM LORD CAITANYA. THE DISCIPLIC SUCESSION IS AS FOLLOWS: 1. SRI KRISHNA, 2. BRAHMA, 3. NARADA, 4. VYASA, 5. MADHVA, 6. PADMANABHA, 7. NRIHARI, 8. MADHAVA, 9. AKSHOBHYA, 10. JAYATIRTHA, 11. JNANASINDHU, 12. PURUSOTTAMA, 13. VIDYANIDHI, 14. RAJENDRA, 15. JAYADHARMA, 16. PURUSOTTAMA, 17. VYASATIRTHA, 18. LAKSMIPATI, 19. MADHAVENDRA PURI, 20. ISVARA PURI (ADVAITA, NITYANANDA) 21. SRI CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU, 22. (SVARUPA, SANATANA) RUPA, 23.(JIVA) RAGHUNATH, 24. KRISHNA DASA, 25. NAROTTAMA, 26. VISVANATHA, 27. (BALADEVA.) JAGANNATHA, 28. (BHAKTIVINODE) GAURA-KISORA, 29. SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI, SRI BARSHABHANAVIDAYITADAS, 30. SRI SRIMAD BHAKTIVEDANTA. |
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Greg Jay
mark mclaughlin
| --- On Mon, 7/5/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: |
| "You will notice NO WOMAN is represented in OUR DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION." |
| That is because the disciplic succession is represented by the names of the Acaryas who gave some change in Siksa to adjust to the candidates of a particular time, place, and circumstance. Jahnava Devi was not tasked with that. She gave Siksa based on that of Lord Caitanya who was the prominent Acarya at her time, and gave initiation as well. We can assume she was AUTHORIZED to give initiation. Othewise... 1. She would not have done it. OR 2. She was an unbonafide rogue, and would read about the controversy in the scriptures. |
mark mclaughlin
| absolutely. For example, If Urmila were to find herself an Uttama Adhikari Gaudiya Vaisnava who decides to authorize her to initiate, she could bring some disciples up to her level of advancement if they stayed with her Siksa after the Diksa. That is the exception. Srila Prabhupada's disciples of any level of advancement are inherently unauthorized from doing so in his Asramas, and strongly advised against doing so in any case, unless they are uttama. Some take this strong advice to be a blanket prohibition on all his disicples from initiating at all. Because his disciples were supposed to stick with the society. And as Mother Anuttama points out, an Uttama devotee ACTUALLY DOES NOT FEEL HIMSELF QUALIFIED AND NEEDS TO BE ORDERED IN ORDER TO EVEN CONSIDER INITIATING DISCIPLES. No, the evidence shows that Srila Prabhupada's disciples were meant to STICK WITH ISKCON RULES, and not initiate their own disciples in any way shape or form, at any time, unless authorized by direct order. If the world goes to hell, and Srila Prabhupada's are a bit stranded and broken off from support, I am sure he would come personally to authorize whatever neophyte and intermediate devotees were willing and able to start initiating and push on the movement. That is the only authorized exception I could see, and I couldn't see Srila Prabhupada doing such a thing except in such a dire emergency, because it would cause confusion if he did that among a group of functional loyal disciples in a working Society. --- On Mon, 7/5/10, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote: |
Mahesh Raja
Mark Prabhu
Lets look it from a very simple understanding:
You can NOT give something YOU do NOT have yourself. Clear?
You can ONLY give something to OTHERS -IF- you HAVE IT. If you DON'T have it you CAN NOT GIVE. ONLY UTTAMA ADHIKARI HAS KRSNA TELEVISED IN HIS HEART - HE CAN GIVE US THE KRSNA TELEVISION RELAY IN OUR HEART.
Kansitha has NO TELEVISON IN HEART. Madhyama has JUST got the KRSNA picture on his TV and he is exited about it - BUT he is NOT tech guy he does not know how to TRANSFER relay to ANOTHER.
Now in the quote below it shows GRAPHICALLY how DIKSA takes place. Krsna is TRANSFERED from Vasudeva's Heart to Devakis Heart. When we chant OFFENSELESS at the stage of MADHYAMA adhikari Krsna is TRANSFERED from Srila Prabhupada's heart to OURS (It can be Srila Prabhupada MURTI form or Books or Photo) THEN our Svarupa is REAVEALED. We can SEE Krsna and WE KNOW our OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM eg dasya, sahkya,vatsalya, madurya. At this point ALL our SINS are FINNISHED. So this is DIKSA. Now ask yourself this: Kansitha does NOT have Krsna in his heart to TRANSFER to your HEART how is he going to give you KRSNA? Now Madhyama Is at the RECEVING end of Krsna FROM the heart of UTTAMA - so HOW is he going to give you KRSNA? Only Uttama Adhikari CAN TRANSFER Krsna because he has Krsna TELIVISED in his HEART.
SB 10.2.18 T Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
TRANSLATION Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krsna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT |
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva's mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one's own heart.
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SB 2.9.35 P Answers by Citing the Lord' s Version
Now WHEN we see Krsna in TELIVISED from Srila Prabhupada IN our HEART our SERVANT - RELATIONSHIP with Krsna of dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or Madurya is REVEALED - THIS is DIVYA JANANA (TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE)
760711CC.NY Lectures
770706rc.vrn Conversations
So - you follow? ONLY UTTAMA ADHIKARI GIVE DIKSA. ONLY HE HAS TELEVISON . Others have NO TV. Can NOT relay.
ys mahesh
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To: "Nathan Zakheim" <zak...@earthlink.net>, "Kurma das not chef Prabhu" <kurmano...@live.com>, "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> |
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july9th
>
> In Gaudiya Vaisnava history there have been women diksha gurus.
Certainly there have, in the above quote Srila Prabhupada says that,
"Sunīti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could
not become Dhruva Mahārāja’s dīkṣā-guru." However Srila Prabhupada
DOESN'T say that NO WOMAN or MOTHER can become dīkṣā-guru. If the
whole paragraph is read, the context is clearly related to Sunīti
being a mataji rather than an ācārya.
"Dhruva had a feeling of obligation to his mother, Sunīti. It was
Sunīti who had given him the clue which had now enabled him to be
personally carried to the Vaikuṇṭha planet by the associates of Lord
Viṣṇu. He now remembered her and wanted to take her with him.
Actually, Dhruva Mahārāja’s mother, Sunīti, was his patha-pradarśaka-
guru. Patha-pradarśaka-guru means “the guru, or the spiritual master,
who shows the way.” Such a guru is sometimes called śikṣā-guru.
Although Nārada Muni was his dīkṣā-guru (initiating spiritual master),
Sunīti, his mother, was the first who gave him instruction on how to
achieve the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is the
duty of the śikṣā-guru or dīkṣā-guru to instruct the disciple in the
right way, and it depends on the disciple to execute the process.
According to śāstric injunctions, there is no difference between śikṣā-
guru and dīkṣā-guru, and generally the śikṣā-guru later on becomes the
dīkṣā-guru. Sunīti, however, being a woman, and specifically his
mother, could not become Dhruva Mahārāja’s dīkṣā-guru. Still, he was
not less obliged to Sunīti. There was no question of carrying Nārada
Muni to Vaikuṇṭhaloka, but Dhruva Mahārāja thought of his mother."
>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 4.12.32
GKD:
all the Vaisnavas of Bengal.
Yes, Srila Prabhupada says she achieved perfection, she was a
qualified ācārya. "It is not that woman cannot be ācārya"
Prabhupāda: I don’t think. But there are many ācāryas. Maybe somewhere
I might have mentioned. It is not that woman cannot be ācārya.
Generally, they do not become. In very special case. But Jāhnavā-devī
was accepted as, but she did not declare.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jāhnavā devī was-Nityānanda’s wife. She became. If
she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it is not
possible to become guru? But, not so many. Actually one who has
attained the perfection, she can become guru. But man or woman, unless
one has attained the perfection…. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya
[Cc. Madhya 8.128]. The qualification of guru is that he must be fully
cognizant of the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he or she can become guru. Yei
kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. [break] In our material world, is
it any prohibition that woman cannot become professor? If she is
qualified, she can become professor. What is the wrong there? She must
be qualified. That is the position. So similarly, if the woman
understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly, she can become guru.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Interview with Professors O’Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto
GKD:
several women gurus.
Sorry, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of women gurus mentioned by
Srila Prabhupada's version of Bhaktivinode's guruparampara. Where do
you get this info from?
The direct disciple of Śrīla Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī was Śrīla
Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, who accepted Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī as
his servitor. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura accepted Śrīla
Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, who initiated Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, who
in turn initiated Śrīla Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī, the spiritual master
of Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, the
divine master of our humble self.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Ādi 1-1975: The Spiritual Masters
On Jul 5, 6:41 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 2010, at 3:06 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:
>
Mahesh Raja
Mark Prabhu
AGTSP pamho
Hare Krsna!
Exception dose NOT make it a rule.
We are not out to question Jahnava Devi's Diksa. What were the EXACT circumstances that this Diksa took place? Therefore it is ALL SPECULATION to suggest ANYTHING BEYOND WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS MADE IT CLEAR TO US. WHAT Srila Prabhupada has made it VERY CLEAR: |
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SB 4.12.32 P Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back to Godhead
Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru. |
ys mahesh
|
mark mclaughlin
| I have a simpler understanding. Srila Prabhupada authorized neophytes with no TV, and they gave Diksa on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, when Srila Prabhupada wasn't even there. Thus the first stage of Diksa, which is the formal initiation, is performed on the strength of authorization. Otherrwise how would some neophyte female devotee be able to initiate an aspirant by whispering the Gayatri Mantra in his ear? Answer: She would not. But she had authorization from Srila Prabhupada to do that, so the link was made despite her general lack of advancement and no TV, and that man was initiated. Spiritual Diksa is an ongoing process that is guided by Siksa, and Spiritual Diksa may be initiated in a person before or after their formal initiation. If some other uttama BESIDES Srila Prabhupada decides to authorize a neophyte or madhyam to accept disciples, the authorization is good enough to make the initial Diksa link for the aspirant. The difference here is that the aspirant can only reach the level of advancement of the Diksa guru who in this case is not representing Uttama Siksa, but was ordered to leave his Guru's camp and initiate on his own and guide his disciples as he is able. Thus the NOI 5 purport that a neophyte or intermediate devotee can accept disciples. Not that this is acceptable within Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon. Important to note. |
--- On Mon, 7/5/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: |
Pratyatosa
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator
PS: I would be very surprised, Mahesh Prabhu, if you have the wherewithal to defeat the following:
"Female Diksha-gurus in ISKCON: A paper by the Sastric Advisory Council (SAC)"
Being a blind follower, is not helping the ritvik cause. You are simply making us look like a bunch of mindless fanatics. The reason that the GBC is doing the wrong thing is mostly because of the July 9th letter, not because this person or that person is not allowed to be guru because you say that he or she is not allowed. You are barking up the wrong tree, Mahesh, and making us ritviks, as a group, look like fools.
Have you even admitted that you were wrong about anything?
mark mclaughlin
| Mahesh Prabhu, I never argued the exception was the rule. Neither did Caturbahu das. You use the example of Suniti and Druva to prove that Urmila could not possibly become a Diksa guru. Your evidence was faulty, because an exception can arise. There is evidence, however, which is irrefutable. That is that Srila Prabhupada ordered RITVIK and did not order Urmila to be an exception. That is evidence to which there is no exception. Yours was not. That is all we were pointing out. Your evidence is good supporting evidence, after all we should not be comparing ourselves to exalted souls in order to justify exceptional behavior, and Srila Prabhupada tells us the general RULE is no woman Diksa gurus. BUT since there seem to be so many exceptional (in their own minds) people out there, we have the solid irrefutable evidence to rely on to expose their cheating. Better to use that then. Hare Krsna |
--- On Mon, 7/5/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: |
july9th
> I have a simpler understanding.
>
> Srila Prabhupada authorized neophytes with no TV, and they gave Diksa on Srila Prabhupada's behalf, when Srila Prabhupada wasn't even there.
They performed the ceremony, Srila Prabhupada gives the diksa as he's
got the TV, not the authorized neophyte.
BM:
> performed on the strength of authorization. Otherrwise how would some neophyte female devotee be able to initiate an aspirant by
> whispering the Gayatri Mantra in his ear? Answer: She would not. But
> she had authorization from Srila Prabhupada to do that, so the link was
> made despite her general lack of advancement and no TV, and that man was initiated.
They performed the ceremony, Srila Prabhupada gives the diksa as he's
got the TV, not the authorized neophyte.
BM:
>
> If some other uttama BESIDES Srila Prabhupada decides to authorize a neophyte or madhyam to accept disciples, the authorization is good enough to make the initial Diksa link for the aspirant.
accept disciples ON BEHALF of the diksa guru ie: as
ritviks.......otherwise you may as well say - If some other uttama
in other words what you suggest is a ludicrous proposition, since
neophyte or madhyam cannot give diksa, according to Srila Prabhupada.
BM:
Give some examples from Srila Prabhupada's teachings of a diksa guru
who is NOT uttama?
BM:
Problem with this theory is NOI 5 purport says that a neophyte or
intermediate devotee can accept disciples BUT doesn't say as diksa
guru because such a proposition is nonsense.
BM:
Why would it be acceptable anywhere?
>
> --- On Mon, 7/5/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh_ag...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> From: mark mclaughlin <markmac...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
> To: "Nathan Zakheim" <zakh...@earthlink.net>, "Kurma das not chef Prabhu" <kurmanotthec...@live.com>, "Mahesh Raja" <mahesh_ag...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "larry freeman p" <laks...@webtv.net>, "Bhaktatraveler" <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com>, "Pratyatosa ACBSP" <pratyat...@gmail.com>, "Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP]" <ameya...@gmail.com>, "angel1...@yahoo.comlee" <angel1...@yahoo.com>, "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>, "dasc...@streamyx.comChan" <dasc...@streamyx.com>, "John Hanton" <hantonj...@hotmail.com>, "istagos...@googlegroups.comgosthi" <istag...@googlegroups.com>, magfa...@wowway.com, "Charlie French" <m...@setmedic.com>, miloni.cpa...@yahoo.com, "Patrick Hedemark"
> <pdhedem...@yahoo.com>, "sudhrashan....@gmail.comdas" <sudhrashan....@gmail.com>, "urdhvaga USA." <urdhv...@aol.com>, "Yoland Y. Langevin" <yasoda1...@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, 5 July, 2010, 19:41
>
> Hare Krsna Mahesa Prabhu!
>
>
> "Thank-you very much for AGREEING with me that Kanistha and Madhyama can NOT give Diksa. There are NO exceptions. "
>
> MY REPLY. There are exceptions. If the neophyte or intermediate devotee is authorized by their guru. This is why Srila Prabhupada tells us in the NOI 5 purport that neophyte and intermediate devotees may accept disciples and those disciples can make some spiritual advancement.
>
> Of course Srila Prabhupada also said that his neophyte and intermediate disciples should NOT act this way and thus are not authorized to do so,.
>
> Which means the purport refers to disciples of other Gaudiya Vaisnavas who are given such authorization. Your statement holds eternally true for Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon. He wanted to keep his potency at the forefront and not
> allow it to be watered down.
>
> The rest of your presentation was very informative, I especially liked the tie in where we can identify an uttama by the appearance of a steady transcendental bhava.
>
> Hare Krsna
>
> ys
>
> B.Mark
>
> Date: Monday, July 5, 2010, 12:24 PM
>
> Nara Narayana Visvakarma prabhu
> All Glories to Srila Prabhupada
> Please accept my humble obeisances
> Hare Krsna!
>
> Thank-you very much for AGREEING with me that Kanistha and Madhyama can NOT give Diksa. There are NO exceptions.
>
> I will also show further how the sastra is understood -properly- when you see the CONTEXT of application. Lets take the following:
>
> SB 4.12.33 P Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back to Godhead
> This incident proves that the siksa- or diksa-guru who has a disciple who strongly executes devotional service like Dhruva Maharaja can be carried by the disciple even though the instructor is not as advanced. Although Suniti was an instructor to Dhruva Maharaja, she could not go to the forest because she was a woman, nor could she execute austerities and penances as Dhruva Maharaja did. Still, Dhruva Maharaja was able to take his mother with him. Similarly, Prahlada Maharaja also delivered his atheistic father, Hiranyakasipu. The conclusion is that a disciple or an offspring who is a very strong devotee can carry with him to Vaikunthaloka either his father, mother or siksa- or diksa-guru.
>
>
> read more »
july9th
On my screen I don't have a reply to all.
Besides thy can read on the forum, can't they?
Then reply accordingly.
If they don't want to join the forum, what can I do?
On Jul 5, 9:25 pm, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear July 9th Prabhu, why do you only reply to the forum<istagosthi@
> googlegroups.com>? Mahesh and Gaura Keshava Prabhus are not even members of
> the forum. How are they supposed to reply to your reply? From now on, please
> click "Reply all" not "Reply."
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator
>
> PS: I would be very surprised, Mahesh Prabhu, if you have the wherewithal to
> defeat the following:
>
> "Female Diksha-gurus in ISKCON: A paper by the Sastric Advisory Council
>
> Being a blind follower, is not helping the ritvik cause. You are simply
> making us look like a bunch of mindless fanatics. The reason that the GBC is
> doing the wrong thing is mostly because of the July 9th letter, not because
> this person or that person is not allowed to be guru because you say that he
> or she is not allowed. You are barking up the wrong tree, Mahesh, and making
> us ritviks, as a group, look like fools.
>
> Have you even admitted that you were wrong about anything?
>
Mahesh Raja
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu and other Prabhus
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! |
|
Please accept my humble obeisances
Hare Krsna!
|
I read the two points below and sincerely apologise for my misunderstanding.
I accept Srila Prabhupada's authority - on those statements.
Thank-you very much for pointing out. I stand corrected. |
|
Prabhupāda: I don’t think. But there are many ācāryas. Maybe somewhere
I might have mentioned. It is not that woman cannot be ācārya. Generally, they do not become. In very special case. But Jāhnavā-devī was accepted as, but she did not declare. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego |
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jāhnavā devī was-Nityānanda’s wife. She became. If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it is not possible to become guru? But, not so many. Actually one who has attained the perfection, she can become guru. But man or woman, unless one has attained the perfection…. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. The qualification of guru is that he must be fully cognizant of the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he or she can become guru. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. [break] In our material world, is it any prohibition that woman cannot become professor? If she is qualified, she can become professor. What is the wrong there? She must be qualified. That is the position. So similarly, if the woman understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly, she can become guru. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Interview with Professors O’Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto |
ys mahesh
|
mark mclaughlin
| Since the perfection of one's qualification is strict adherance to the orders of the Acarya, it looks like the most qualified among Srila Prabhupada's disciples would certainly follow his instruction to initiate on his behalf in his Iskcon temples. Man or woman. SINCE THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF MEN, and the general instruction for women is to be married to a MAN and keep his house, cook and have babies, it just doesn't make sense why a woman who was following Srila Prabhupada's instructions would find herself in a position where she would be needed to do what men do as a GENERAL RULE, which is priestly duties including Ritvik. |
--- On Mon, 7/5/10, Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: |
Pratyatosa
You are a great soul for admitting that you were wrong. I have to admit, I underestimated you. Please forgive me.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Pratyatosa
However, like I said before:
Therefore, there is an obvious need for female "gurus" within ISKCON at present.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Pratyatosa
I now realize that, because your http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi account is set to "No email," you had no way of knowing that this thread was being sent to multiple email addresses. Please forgive me for chastising you when you were completely innocent of any wrongdoing. I'm very sorry for jumping to conclusions out of my own stupidity and lack of experience as a forum moderator.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator
Mahesh Raja
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu |
|
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
|
please accept my humble obeisances
Hare Krsna!
I am no great soul - still dealing with my anarthas still CONDITIONED soul- so nothing to forgive.
Sharing my own realizations, Lets look at the quotes again: |
|
SB 4.12.32 P Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back to Godhead
Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru. |
In here the word MOTHER is in context to the Suniti BUT the word WOMAN can apply to ANY woman because it says being a woman. The WHOLE philosophy is SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.
Srila Prabhupada sums it up :"Generally, they do not become. In VERY special case" . Under what these "In very special case" that woman can be Diksa guru is just another issue. However, ONLY UTTAMA ADHIKARI(MAHABHAGAVATA) IS DIKSA GURU as per Madhya 24.330. |
|
Prabhupāda: I don’t think. But there are many ācāryas. Maybe somewhere
I might have mentioned. It is not that woman cannot be ācārya. Generally, they do not become. In very special case. But Jāhnavā-devī was accepted as, but she did not declare. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego |
ys mahesh |
|
|
|
Mahesh Raja
Mark prabhu
Your example of "Diksa" from Saradia to her husband Vaikuntanatha is not valid
Lets go thru it:
"Even though you have had no gayatri mantra, still you are more than brahmana. I am enclosing herewith your sacred thread, duly chanted on by me. Gayatri mantra is as follows: [TAKEN OUT] Ask your wife to chant this mantra and you hear it and if possible hold a fire ceremony as you have seen during your marriage and get this sacred thread on your body. Saradia, or any twice-initiated devotee, may perform the ceremony. 1) What is done here is JUST FORMALITY on BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada.
2) The DIKSA Guru is ONE Srila Prabhupada NOT Saradia.
3) The initiator is ONE not TWO. Even when Ritviks are giving the Mantra they GIVE ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada. Ritviks DO NOT GIVE DIKSA. Ritviks give FORMALITY only.
In ALL cases the INITIATOR is ONE. According to your ways of thinking Ritvik who gives First and Second Initiation FORMALITY is also some sort of Diksa guru - NO! |
761016iv.cha Conversations |
|
Adi 1.34 The Spiritual Masters
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
With regards to Kanistha giving DIKSA to another - NO he can NOT give DIKSA. If you or anyone say, carry a Danda and Saffron robes say to someone "I give you Krsna mantra". Krsna is not a fool that He will go by your order to manifest/Televised in the HEART of the that person. Krsna is PURE devotee's property to give. ONLY one who has PREMA(Uttama Adhikari) love of Krsna can GIVE Krsna to another. Srila Prabhupada IS the initiator HE GIVES Krsna to us - we simply have to chant OFFENSELESS in order for Krsna to be TELIVISED in our heart at this point our SVARUP(Transcendental Knowledge) is revealed to us and Sins are Vanquished. This is DIKSA.
|
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
|
Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):
|
divyam jnanam yato dadyat
kuryat papasya sanksayam
tasmad dikseti sa prokta
desikais tattva-kovidaih
|
"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."
|
Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri' s Devotional Service
|
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.
|
So here we see from above definition of Diksa quotes:
1) Transcendental Knowledge awakened, initiated
2) becomes freed from all material contamination; vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity
ys mahesh
730106ND.BOM Lectures ys mahesh |
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To: "mark mclaughlin" <markm...@yahoo.com> |
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mark mclaughlin
| Mahesha Prabhu and NNVdas. Neither of you have addressed the NOI 5 verse. A neophyte or intermediate devotee can accept disciples. Neither you nor NNVdas defeated my simple point. I used logical deduction to conclude that if an uttama authorizes, a neophyte or madhyama can in Srila Prabhupada's own words, "accept disciples". This authorization is how a woman can and did conduct a formal initiation in Iskcon. She was a neophyte who was authorized, and thus TEMPORARILY transcendentally overshadowed by the Supersoul who gave the Diksa on behalf of his representative, Srila Prabhupada. The Supreme Lord carried what she lacked, because Srila Prabhupada authorized the occasion though he could not be there. Of course the new initiate was Srila Prabhupada's and not the mataji's because that is how Iskcon functions. So now YOU TELL ME how a neophyte or madhyama can accept disciples according to the NOI 5 verse, without authorization from an uttama. You are claiming that a madhyama has no potency to initiate a person's spiritual life because they are not as solidly on the transcendental platform as an uttama. The NOI 5 verse defeats your speculation. Plus we see transcendental authorization allowed a neophyte woman to initiate. Diksa is a process. A madhyama adhikari who is already initiated and halfway through the process can certainly initiate another. The key is their guidance will not bring the disciple to the ultimate goal. This is not something we need to be too concerned about, but it is important to give the NOI 5 verse its due. ys B.Mark |
Mahesh Raja
Mark Prabhu
What I have said is enough for anyone who is REASONABLE.
Here is the final:
730106ND.BOM Lectures
Hare Krsna!
ys mahesh |
Bhaktatraveler
From: Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net>; mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Kurma das not chef Prabhu <kurmano...@live.com>; Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>; Pratyatosa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; "ange...@yahoo.comlee" <ange...@yahoo.com>; "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>; "das...@streamyx.comChan" <das...@streamyx.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; "istag...@googlegroups.comgosthi" <istag...@googlegroups.com>; magf...@wowway.com; Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 10:58:16 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
mark mclaughlin
Dear Mahesh Prabhu. I can tell you don't want to discuss this anymore by the way you declared your last email to be the final say on the matter. It did not appear conclusive to me and here is why.. The problem is that your presentation, like NNVdas', leaves only one conclusion. There is only one uttama adhikari who will be present on the earth from 1977 til 9500 or so, and no others can possibly appear unassociated with him. While I actually tend to agree with that, I have no proof and Srila Prabhupada has not said so, thus I must disagree with such a proclamation on the principle that there is no evidence. I am not so ignorant to think that my tendency to agree with this can actually limit the Supreme Lord in his efforts to do as he will. That said, for us in Iskcon, we need not be so concerned. It is just imporant to me that statements of Srila Prabhupada's such as that one in NOI 5 purport can be explained, and not dismissed as irrelevant or incomplete. As for another uttama on the planet.... I cannot put myself in the mind of the Lord and know why he might inspire his Uttama to encourage and authorize his madhyam or neophyte disciple to leave his asrama and accept disciples. But if he did, according to NOI 5, the neophyte and madhyama can accept disciples. This fits with what we know about the process of Diksa. A person who has some transcendental attainment, can initiate the beginning of spiritual life of another person, and certainly perform a ceremony if they are taught how. The mantra and the instruction will have the potency present in the neophyte/madhyam, and no more. So the process of diksa for that newly initated person will begin but will not end with the initiation, nor will it end with the guidance of that neophyte guru either. Multiple lifetimes of sadhana satisfies the slow march toward fully accepting an Uttama in such a case. 9/7/71 Initiation lecture. (So this initiation process is to gradually raise a devotee to that (Vasudeva) platform) If one tries to initiate Without explicit or truly implicit authorization, one is not on the spiritual platform at all and cannot be considered neophyte or madhyam in good standing and can accept Kali-chelas, not Bhakti disciples. Hare Krsna |
Charlie French
As Mark Twain said, “suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself”
Let’s say, for sake of argument, all of you settle your ritvik/uttama adhikari/diksa issues. Then what? Once you have settled who is correct, how does that affect Srila Prabhupada’s movement? What does he get out of it? What is your next move for spreading Krishna Consciousness? Will it be in a combined effort? Because if not, why bother to receive each others approval if you refuse to work on a joint service project?
I do not say this with a hidden agenda nor predisposition to one side or another, I would just like to know, once these issues are settled, what becomes a priority then. Because when settled, there will be lots of extra time not spent arguing over these important issues.
And my apologies to everyone copied on this…I received ten emails over the last hour about these issues and , perhaps like you, are wondering why we are witnessing this epic struggle of philosophical import and hope for a resolution and reduction of email.
Please advise,
Tapana Misra das
Madhusudana Dasa
>Mahesha Prabhu and NNVdas.
>Neither of you have addressed the NOI 5 verse. A neophyte or intermediate devotee can accept disciples.
Reply:
This has been answered several times. The neophyte or intermediate devotee can accept disciples in the siksa sense of acceptance. Just like the Bhakta leader or the Temple President.
BM:
>Neither you nor NNVdas defeated my simple point. I used logical deduction to conclude that if an uttama authorizes, a neophyte or madhyama >can in Srila Prabhupada's own words, "accept disciples".
Reply:
Yes, as siksa guru NOT diksa as the diksa guru must be mahabhagavat. Mahesh has posted so many quotes to this effect what more can be done?
BM:
This authorization is how a woman can and did conduct a formal initiation in Iskcon. She was a neophyte who was authorized,
Reply:
She was in effect a ritvik performing the ceremony. Diksa is NOT the ceremony only, it is a process. The ceremony is not such an essential part of that process. The essential being the transcendental knowledge.
BM:
and thus TEMPORARILY transcendentally overshadowed by the Supersoul who gave the Diksa on behalf of his representative, Srila Prabhupada.
Reply:
So now your saying the SUPERSOUL IE: LORD KRISHNA HIMSELF is giving diksa, what is this diksa? Can you give any quotes on this?
BM:
The Supreme Lord carried what she lacked, because Srila Prabhupada authorized the occasion though he could not be there. Of course the new initiate was Srila Prabhupada's and not the mataji's because that is how Iskcon functions.
So now YOU TELL ME how a neophyte or madhyama can accept disciples according to the NOI 5 verse, without authorization from an uttama.
Reply:
Mahesh has explained, he may not be the most erudite of scholars but if you read what he has posted carefully the truth is there. I'll say it again - as siksa guru.
BM:
You are claiming that a madhyama has no potency to initiate a person's spiritual life because they are not as solidly on the transcendental platform as an uttama.
The NOI 5 verse defeats your speculation.
Reply:
No it shows your inability to comprehend.
BM:
Plus we see transcendental authorization allowed a neophyte woman to initiate.
Reply:
You are confusing things here - initiate can mean 2 things in ISKCON English parlance;
1. The ceremony
2. The transcendental process of which the ceremony is a small part
She performed the ceremony - she never iniitated anyone, Srila Prabhupada is the initiator.
BM:
Diksa is a process. A madhyama adhikari who is already initiated and halfway through the process can certainly initiate another.
Reply:
Hogswash!
Mahesh has given so many quotes to the contrary so I will not repeat them. Your speculations are lacking scriptural authority.
BM:
The key is their guidance will not bring the disciple to the ultimate goal.
Reply:
Then they are not qualified
Madhusudana Dasa
> insufficient, advancement? Difficult!
>
> RCB
Reply:
"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living
entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord
Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means
receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness." (C.c.
Madhya, 9.61, purport, emphasis added)
Diksa means 'receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness',
not 'insufficient guidance'.
"Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental
knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination."
(C.c. Madhya, 4.111)
>>> instruct,but the initiator spiritual master is one.
>>>2)becomes freed from all material contamination;vanquish all
>>> reactionscaused by sinful activity
>>>>>>>> revelation begins.It is the preliminary stage in developing one's
>>>>>>>>>>My point is AGAIN thisIT DOES NOT SAY DIKSA in THAT passage. Your
>>>>>>>>>> ignorant friend Gaura Kesava ALSO refered that as Diksa.
>>>>>>>>>>Kanistha and Madhyama DO NOTgive DIKSA. They have NO CAPABILITY.
>>>>>>>>>>>> quote is they can also acceptdisciples. NO DIKSA is mentioned AT
>>>>>>>>>>>> ALL!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>NOI 5 purportA neophyte Vaiñëava or a Vaiñëava situated on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> intermediate platformcan also acceptdisciples, but such
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3rdoffence in chanting.
>>>>>>>>>>>> transcendental knowledgeand vanquish all reactionscaused by
>>>>>>>>>>>> sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed
>>>>>>>>>>>> scriptures knows this process as diksa."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri' s Devotional Service
>>>>>>>>>>>> Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental
>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledgeby which he becomes freed from all material
>>>>>>>>>>>> contamination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>BUT since Kanistha adhikari (QUALIFIED Brahmana) is HIMSELF
>>>>>>>>>>>> contaminated HOWCAN HE GIVE DIKSA to another WHO becomes freed
>>>>>>>>>>>> from ALL material contamination. This is completely illogical!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Bg 7.14 P Knowledge of the Absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>> Another meaning of guna is rope; it is to be understood that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the conditioned soul is tightly tied by the ropes of illusion. A
>>>>>>>>>>>> man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself--he must be
>>>>>>>>>>>> helped by a person who is unbound. Because the bound cannot help
>>>>>>>>>>>> the bound, the rescuer must be liberated. Therefore, only Lord
>>>>>>>>>>>> Krsna, or His bona fide representative the spiritual master, can
>>>>>>>>>>>> release the conditioned
>>>>>>>>>>>> soul.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation
>>>>>>>>>>>> The word vidhuta, meaning "cleansed," is very significant.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam
>>>>>>>>>>>> guna-sango 'sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are
>>>>>>>>>>>> contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by
>>>>>>>>>>>> tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode
>>>>>>>>>>>> of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially
>>>>>>>>>>>> contaminated.One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva,
>>>>>>>>>>>> transcending the sattva-guna.
>>>>>>>>>>>>770214r2.may Conversations
>>>>>>>>>>>>Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should
>>>>>>>>>>>> be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become
>>>>>>>>>>>> Vaisnava.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to
>>>>>>>>>>>> become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava
>>>>>>>>>>>> is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is... fall down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kanistha-adhikari.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Prabhupada: Kanistha?
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That
>>>>>>>>>>>> is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari,
>>>>>>>>>>>> means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha.What is
>>>>>>>>>>>> esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is kanistha-adhikari.
>>>>>>>>>>>>arcayam eva haraye
>>>>>>>>>>>>pujam yah sraddhayehate
>>>>>>>>>>>>na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
>>>>>>>>>>>>sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
>>>>>>>>>>>>The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is
>>>>>>>>>>>> elevated to the spiritual stage.And below the brahmana there is
>>>>>>>>>>>> no question of Vaisnava.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hari-sauri: No
>>>>>>>>>>>> question of?
>>>>>>>>>>>>Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>3) Madhyam adhikari is the RECEPIENT of Diksa so HOW can we
>>>>>>>>>>>> say that he gives Diksa? Madhyama adhikari means MIDDLE stage
>>>>>>>>>>>> he is at the RECEIVING end of Diksa.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>NoI 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transcendental loving service of the Lord.The madhyama-adhikari
>>>>>>>>>>>> should be considered to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> situated midway in devotional service.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>diksa-kalebhakta kare atma-samarpana
>>>>>>>>>>>>sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
>>>>>>>>>>>>TRANSLATION
>>>>>>>>>>>>"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fullysurrenders unto
>>>>>>>>>>>> the service of the Lord,Krsna accepts him to be as good as
>>>>>>>>>>>> Himself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>TEXT 193
>>>>>>>>>>>>sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
>>>>>>>>>>>>aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
>>>>>>>>>>>>TRANSLATION
>>>>>>>>>>>>"When the devotee's body is thus transformedinto spiritual
>>>>>>>>>>>> existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders
>>>>>>>>>>>> service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>TEXT 194
>>>>>>>>>>>>martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
>>>>>>>>>>>>niveditatma vicikirsito me
>>>>>>>>>>>>tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
>>>>>>>>>>>>mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
>>>>>>>>>>>>TRANSLATION
>>>>>>>>>>>>" 'The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he
>>>>>>>>>>>> gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for
>>>>>>>>>>>> executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes
>>>>>>>>>>>> fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Me.'
>>>>>>>>>>>>PURPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>>This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the
>>>>>>>>>>>> time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material
>>>>>>>>>>>> conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme
>>>>>>>>>>>> Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental
>>>>>>>>>>>> platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual
>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body
>>>>>>>>>>>> of Krsna.When one is freed from material connections in this
>>>>>>>>>>>> way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts
>>>>>>>>>>>> His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a
>>>>>>>>>>>> person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no
>>>>>>>>>>>> longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his
>>>>>>>>>>>> spiritual identity he engages in the service of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lord,for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This
>>>>>>>>>>>> awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis
>>>>>>>>>>>> may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If
>>>>>>>>>>>> one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an
>>>>>>>>>>>> offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection
>>>>>>>>>>>> one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta
>>>>>>>>>>>> (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).
>>>>>>>>>>>>ANTYA 4 TEXT 193
>>>>>>>>>>>>"When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual
>>>>>>>>>>>> existence,the devotee, in that transcendental body,renders
>>>>>>>>>>>> serviceto the lotus feet of the Lord.
>>>>>>>>>>>> One should NOTbecome a spiritual master unless he has attained
Patrick Hedemark
PAMHO AGTSP Hare Krsna
This idea that those appointed to give diksa "on behalf" of Srila Prabhupada are in fact giving "formality" only - has to be the strangest twisting of reality I have yet to come upon.
Yes the "ceremony" of diksa is a formality. However this "formality" is a specific feature of Srila Prabhupada's representation of the mission of SBSST. It is not without substance as is projected here. We all submitted to its introduction from the very beginning of ISKCON's manifest organizaition by HDG Srila Prabhupada. As such - though it is a formality - it is not rendered as insignificant or unecessary by that fact. If anything - precisely because it was given us by HDG Srila Prabhupada - it is just as significant and meaningful as every other single aspect of our sacred sadhana.
One who argues against its relevance or importance is ignoring the reality of the situation.
Srila Prabhupada established with his own words in many ways - the role of those he titled as "officiating acharya". It is simple enough but any attempt to project such men as mere "priests" is confounded by Srila Prabhupada's own statement that "Yes they are guru - BUT by my order" and any initated by them are in fact "disciples of my disciples; granddisciples". This he carefully addressed on May 28th 1977.
If I am asked to give you a check for $1000.00 dollars - on behalf of the US government as a tax return - my doing so - is with the full authority of that government and I am INDEED giving you - the actual check. My role is official - yes - but I am in fact doing my authorized part in delivering you your money. You cannot ignore that fact.
The guru has nothing himself to give anyone - but the mercy of Lord Krsna - which he himself accepts, imbibes and agrees to pass on. The guru is always a cooperative loving servant of the entire Parampara - stretching back to Lord Krsna Himself. Carefully read the first verse to the Gurvatakam and this jumps out at you front and center. He drawss the mercy of Lord Krsna from the vast ocean and then poors that rainfall over the thirsty souls suffering in isolation and separation from the Lord in the "forest fire of material existence".
Srila Prabhupada authorized a few men to take responsibility for this "formality" and all of us - including these men - were tasked with representing the "substance" behind it and carry forward his mission in exact accord with the purposes he invested in it - and the means he established to ensure that mission's endurance.
Any "formality" observed in our system - is only an aspect or adjunct to the substance that is being passed on. Such formal attention to detail in the practice of sadhana bhakti is no more the full or exclusive substance of bhakti than the worship of the spiritual master lies in offering him a few fruits and flowers!
One who argues that the officiating acharya is not regular guru - with his duties not laden with both powers and disabilities - within or under the banner of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission - is held back by their own antipathy for surrender to the very simple orders of Srila Prabhupada.
Praghosa
mark mclaughlin
| --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com> wrote: |
| Once you have settled who is
correct, how does that affect Srila Prabhupada’s movement? What does he get out of it? What is your next move for spreading Krishna Consciousness? Will it be in a combined effort? Because if not, why bother to receive each others approval if you refuse to work on a joint service
project? |
| PAMHO TAPANA MISRA DAS. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! What does he get out of it? Prabhupada gets one or more devotees who want to follow his instructions exclusively. He gets Disciples who care enough to wade through all the disinformation and "opinions" of others, who will not go out blindly forward on their own little idea, but will educate themselves amongst others of like mind. Even if such a process is a little difficult at times, because we all took on a little poison. Thorns take out thorns and all. If you like you could stick around to find out answers to how such a thing will look down the line when there is consensus. Current Iskcon has a consensus, by force. Thus they lack strong spiritual authority, and have steadily dwindled, but they still have some effect on the world. What we want to do is see what effect we will have on the world when Prabhupada's plan is put into motion, because judging from Iskcon, that is not what plan they have put into motion. Hare Krsna Ys B.Mark |
Madhusudana Dasa
> Dear One and all,
>
> PAMHO AGTSP Hare Krsna
>
> This idea that those appointed to give diksa "on behalf" of Srila Prabhupada
> are in fact giving "formality" only - has to be the strangest twisting of
> reality I have yet to come upon.
> Yes the "ceremony" of diksa is a formality.
Reply: Wow, do you ever think about what you write?
PD:
>However this "formality" is a
> specific feature of Srila Prabhupada's representation of the mission of
> SBSST. It is not without substance as is projected here. We all submitted to
> its introduction from the very beginning of ISKCON's manifest organizaition
> by HDG Srila Prabhupada. As such - though it is a formality -
Reply:
YOU said it again "it is a formality".... this..... "has to be the
strangest twisting of
reality I have yet to come upon". Hilarious prabhu, jaya well done!
PD:
>it is not
> rendered as insignificant or unecessary by that fact. If anything -
> precisely because it was given us by HDG Srila Prabhupada - it is just as
> significant and meaningful as every other single aspect of our sacred
> sadhana.
>
> One who argues against its relevance or importance is ignoring the reality
> of the situation.
>
> Srila Prabhupada established with his own words in many ways - the role of
> those he titled as "officiating acharya". It is simple enough but any
> attempt to project such men as mere "priests" is confounded by Srila
> Prabhupada's own statement that "Yes they are guru - BUT by my order"
Reply:
Why is it every time you guys see the word guru you immediately think
diksa guru?
Do you dream of someday sitting on the Vyasasana, like in the good old
zonal acharya days. Having the pretty bhaktines pour yoghurt and honey
all over your feet?
"officiating acharya" = ritvik = priest: SIMPLE FOR THE SIMPLE! RIGHT?
PD:
>and
> any initated by them are in fact "disciples of my disciples;
> granddisciples". This he carefully addressed on May 28th 1977.
Reply:
Yes but not carefully understood by some.
PD:
> One who argues that the officiating acharya is not regular guru - with his
> duties not laden with both powers and disabilities - within or under the
> banner of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission - is held back by their own
> antipathy for surrender to the very simple orders of Srila Prabhupada.
>
> Praghosa
Reply:
Why call them "officiating acharya" if they are regular?
Truth is they are ritviks which are priests.
You can call them "mere" priests, "black" priests, "white" priests, whatever.
They are priests SIMPLE AS THAT.
mark mclaughlin
PAMHO Pragosha das. The key is the authorization. Without that authorization, the essence of the formal ceremony is not passed on by a Ritvik, OR a Regular Guru. In Iskcon the authorization was to accept disciples on his behalf as Ritvik. The Ritvik may even be as qualified as one who might be authorized to be Regular Guru, but there is a difference. NORMALLY when an "Regular Guru" initiates a disciple, that disciple is the grand-disciple of the Regular Guru's Guru. Thus the Regular Guru, gives Siksa to his disicples according to time place and circumstance. He can make adjustments to his disciples sadhana that does not exactly match the sadhana HIS Regular Guru gave. A Ritvik is only authorized to give consent to an initiation ceremony. Of course he must be practically as qualified as one who would be considered Regular Guru. BUT in this case, the Ritvik has no authority to adjust any of Srila Prabhupada's system, in any way. --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com> wrote: Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 12:29 PM |
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mark mclaughlin
| PAMHO Madhusudana dasa. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. you quoted: "This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness" In this case "Diksa, or initiation" refers to the spiritual diksa, and not just the initiation ceremony itself. I am sure you agree that Diksa or Initiation is also defined as a process. 6/17/76 Initiation lecture, Toronto. "So if we pass through this process of divya-jñāna, dīkṣā, then we rightly understand what is Bhagavad-gītā or we become interested that what is the lesson of Bhagavad-gītā. " KEYWORDS: Pass through process...THEN we become interested in the lesson of Bhagavad Gita The beginning of the process is usually more or less coinciding with the formal initiation. What happened to all of those people who took formal initiation from Srila Prabhupada? Most of them do not display symptoms that they have received any permanent realization of their spiritual consciousness. This is because normally, in the beginning, especially the initiation ceremony, the usual thing is someone gets a glimpse of the pure knowledge of their spiritual consciousness. This is a factual realization of I am spirit soul, I am not the body, or maybe a little deeper. From there on, the PROCESS OF DIKSA INITIATION, deepens that realization, sometimes over many lives! Hare Krsna! ys B.Mark --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Madhusudana Dasa <july9t...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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mark mclaughlin
| --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Madhusudana Dasa <july9t...@gmail.com> wrote: |
| PD: and any initated by them are in fact "disciples of my disciples; granddisciples". This he carefully addressed on May 28th 1977. |
| M.S, Reply: |
Yes but not carefully understood by some. |
| B.Mark reply: What? I thought we established that for our purposes in Iskcon, Srila Prabhupada refers to a disciple as one both SPIRITUALLY AND CEREMONIOUSLY INITIATED by an Uttama Regular Guru. Therefore, an Uttama ritvik in Iskcon only gives Ceremonial diksa on Srila Prabhupada's behalf. Despite the fact that Ritvik may in rare cases actually have some direct Siksa relationship with the new Bhakta whose formal initiation he authorized, he certainly is not authorized to change sadhana standards the way a Regular Guru would. So the ritvik does not get a grand-disciple. At all. They are all Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples, who instruct one another according to Prabhupada's exclusive Siksa, and that is all. Even the local TP or instructing Brahmana does not consider their students to be their disciples and grand-disciples of Srila Prabhupada. That is just not in our nomenclature. Grand-disciple applies to those initiated by an Acarya who may change the sadhana according to time and place because he is no longer bound by the exact sadhana of HIS Acarya's asrama. There is a difference it seems. What are your thoughts? ys B.Mark |
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Pratyatosa
I can tell you don't want to discuss this anymore by the way you declared your last email to be the final say on the matter. It did not appear conclusive to me and here is why..
Therefore, IMHO, Bhakta Mark Prabhu is obviously right and you are obviously wrong:
Kanisthas and Madhyamas CAN be diksa gurus if they are authorized by their guru to do so.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Bhaktatraveler
From: Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>
To: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net>; Mahesh Raja <mahesh...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: Kurma das not chef Prabhu <kurmano...@live.com>; Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>; Pratyatosa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; ange...@yahoo.com; cc...@yahoo.com; das...@streamyx.com; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; istag...@googlegroups.com; magf...@wowway.com; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; sudhras...@gmail.com; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 12:05:21 PM
Subject: RE: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
Bhaktatraveler
One should mentally honor the devotee who chants the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa, one should offer humble obeisances to the devotee who has undergone spiritual initiation [dīkṣā] and is engaged in worshiping the Deity, and one should associate with and faithfully serve that Pure devotee who is advanced in undeviated devotional service and whose heart is completely devoid of the propensity to criticize others.
PURPORT
In order to intelligently apply the sixfold loving reciprocations mentioned in the previous verse, one must select proper persons with careful discrimination. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī therefore advises that we should meet with the Vaiṣṇavas in an appropriate way, according to their particular status. In this verse he tells us how to deal with three types of devotees—the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī. The kaniṣṭha-adhikārī is a neophyte who has received the hari-nāma initiation from the spiritual master and is trying to chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. One should respect such a person within his mind as a kaniṣṭha-vaiṣṇava. A madhyama-adhikārī has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikārī should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service. The uttama-adhikārī, or highest devotee, is one who is very advanced in devotional service. An uttama-adhikārī is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Kṛṣṇa consciousness. According to Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, the association and service of such a mahā-bhāgavata, or perfect Vaiṣṇava, are most desirable.
One should not remain a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, one who is situated on the lowest platform of devotional service and is interested only in worshiping the Deity in the temple. Such a devotee is described in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.2.47):
arcāyām eva haraye
pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate
na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu
sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ
“A person who is very faithfully engaged in the worship of the Deity in the temple, but who does not know how to behave toward devotees or people in general is called a prākṛta-bhakta, or kaniṣṭha-adhikāri.”
One therefore has to raise himself from the position of kaniṣṭha-adhikārī to the platform of madhyama-adhikārī. The madhyama-adhikārī is described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.2.46) in this way:
īśvare tad-adhīneṣu
bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca
prema-maitrī-kṛpopekṣā
yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ
“The madhyama-adhikārī is a devotee who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the highest object of love, makes friends with the Lord’s devotees, is merciful to the ignorant and avoids those who are envious by nature.”
This is the way to cultivate devotional service properly; therefore in this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī has advised us how to treat various devotees. We can see from practical experience that there are different types of Vaiṣṇavas. The prākṛta-sahajiyās generally chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, yet they are attached to women, money and intoxication. Although such persons may chant the holy name of the Lord, they are not yet properly purified. Such people should be respected within one’s mind, but their association should be avoided. Those who are innocent but simply carried away by bad association should be shown favor if they are eager to receive proper instructions from pure devotees, but those neophyte devotees who are actually initiated by the bona fide spiritual master and are seriously engaged in carrying out the orders of the spiritual master should be offered respectful obeisances.
In this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement a chance is given to everyone without discrimination of caste, creed or color. Everyone is invited to join this movement, sit with us, take prasāda and hear about Kṛṣṇa. When we see that someone is actually interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and wants to be initiated, we accept him as a disciple for the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. When a neophyte devotee is actually initiated and engaged in devotional service by the orders of the spiritual master, he should be accepted immediately as a bona fide Vaiṣṇava, and obeisances should be offered unto him. Out of many such Vaiṣṇavas, one may be found to be very seriously engaged in the service of the Lord and strictly following all the regulative principles, chanting the prescribed number of rounds on japa beads and always thinking of how to expand the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Such a Vaiṣṇava should be accepted as an uttama-adhikārī, a highly advanced devotee, and his association should always be sought.
The process by which a devotee becomes attached to Kṛṣṇa is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Antya 4.192):
dīkṣā-kāle bhakta kare ātma-samarpaṇa
sei-kāle kṛṣṇa tāre kare ātma-sama
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders to the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa accepts him to be as good as He Himself.”
Dīkṣā, or spiritual initiation, is explained in the Bhakti-sandarbha (868) by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī:
divyaṁ jñānaṁ yato dadyāt
kuryāt pāpasya saṅkṣayam
tasmād dīkṣeti sā proktā
deśikais tattva-kovidaiḥ
“By dīkṣā one gradually becomes disinterested in material enjoyment and gradually becomes interested in spiritual life.”
We have seen many practical examples of this, especially in Europe and America. Many students who come to us from rich and respectable families quickly lose all interest in material enjoyment and become very eager to enter into spiritual life. Although they come from very wealthy families, many of them accept living conditions that are not very comfortable. Indeed, for Kṛṣṇa’s sake they are prepared to accept any living condition as long as they can live in the temple and associate with the Vaiṣṇavas. When one becomes so disinterested in material enjoyment, he becomes fit for initiation by the spiritual master. For the advancement of spiritual life Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (6.1.13) prescribes: tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena ca damena ca. When a person is serious about accepting dīkṣā, he must be prepared to practice austerity, celibacy and control of the mind and body. If one is so prepared and is desirous of receiving spiritual enlightenment (divyaṁ jñānam), he is fit for being initiated. Divyaṁ jñānam is technically called tad-vijñāna, or knowledge about the Supreme. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] when one is interested in the transcendental subject matter of the Absolute Truth, he should be initiated. Such a person should approach a spiritual master in order to take dīkṣā. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.3.21) also prescribes: tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. “When one is actually interested in the transcendental science of the Absolute Truth, he should approach a spiritual master.”
One should not accept a spiritual master without following his instructions. Nor should one accept a spiritual master just to make a fashionable show of spiritual life. One must be jijñāsu, very much inquisitive to learn from the bona fide spiritual master. The inquiries one makes should strictly pertain to transcendental science (jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam). The word uttamam refers to that which is above material knowledge. Tama means “the darkness of this material world,” and ut means “transcendental.” Generally people are very interested in inquiring about mundane subject matters, but when one has lost such interest and is simply interested in transcendental subject matters, he is quite fit for being initiated. When one is actually initiated by the bona fide spiritual master and when he seriously engages in the service of the Lord, he should be accepted as a madhyama-adhikārī.
The chanting of the holy names of Kṛṣṇa is so sublime that if one chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra offenselessly, carefully avoiding the ten offenses, he can certainly be gradually elevated to the point of understanding that there is no difference between the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself. One who has reached such an understanding should be very much respected by neophyte devotees. One should know for certain that without chanting the holy name of the Lord offenselessly, one cannot be a proper candidate for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.69) it is said:
yāhāra komala śraddhā, se ‘kaniṣṭha’ jana
krame krame teṅho bhakta ha-ibe ‘uttama’
“One whose faith is soft and pliable is called a neophyte, but by gradually following the process, he will rise to the platform of a first-class devotee.” Everyone begins his devotional life from the neophyte stage, but if one properly finishes chanting the prescribed number of rounds of harināma, he is elevated step by step to the highest platform, uttama-adhikārī. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement prescribes sixteen rounds daily because people in the Western countries cannot concentrate for long periods while chanting on beads. Therefore the minimum number of rounds is prescribed. However, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to say that unless one chants at least sixty-four rounds of japa (one hundred thousand names), he is considered fallen (patita). According to his calculation, practically every one of us is fallen, but because we are trying to serve the Supreme Lord with all seriousness and without duplicity, we can expect the mercy of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who is famous as patita-pāvana, the deliverer of the fallen.
When Śrīla Satyarāja Khān, a great devotee of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, asked the Lord how a Vaiṣṇava could be recognized, the Lord replied:
prabhu kahe,——“yāṅra mukhe śuni eka-bāra
kṛṣṇa-nāma, sei pūjya,——śreṣṭha sabākāra”
“If one hears a person say even once the word ‘Kṛṣṇa,’ that person should be accepted as the best man out of the common group.” (Cc. Madhya 15.106) Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu continued:
“ataeva yāṅra mukhe eka kṛṣṇa-nāma
sei ta ’vaiṣṇava, kariha tāṅhāra sammāna”
“One who is interested in chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa or who by practice likes to chant Kṛṣṇa’s names should be accepted as a Vaiṣṇava and offered respects as such, at least within one’s mind.” (Cc. Madhya 15.111) One of our friends, a famous English musician, has become attracted to chanting the holy names of Kṛṣṇa, and even in his records he has several times mentioned the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. At his home he offers respect to pictures of Kṛṣṇa and also to the preachers of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In all regards, he has a very high estimation for Kṛṣṇa’s name and Kṛṣṇa’s activities; therefore we offer respects to him without reservation, for we are actually seeing that this gentleman is advancing gradually in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such a person should always be shown respect. The conclusion is that anyone who is trying to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by regularly chanting the holy name should always be respected by Vaiṣṇavas. On the other hand, we have witnessed that some of our contemporaries who are supposed to be great preachers have gradually fallen into the material conception of life because they have failed to chant the holy name of the Lord.
While giving instructions to Sanātana Gosvāmī, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu divided devotional service into three categories.
śāstra-yukti nāhi jāne dṛḍha, śraddhāvān
‘madhyama-adhikārī’ sei mahā-bhāgyavān
“A person whose conclusive knowledge of the śāstras is not very strong but who has developed firm faith in chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and who is also undeterred in the execution of his prescribed devotional service should be considered a madhyama-adhikārī. Such a person is very fortunate.” (Cc. Madhya 22.67) A madhyama-adhikārī is a śraddhāvān, a staunchly faithful person, and he is actually a candidate for further advancement in devotional service. Therefore in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.64) it is said:
śraddhāvān jana haya bhakti-adhikārī
‘uttama’, ‘madhyama’, ‘kaniṣṭha’——śraddhā-anusārī
“One becomes qualified as a devotee on the elementary platform, the intermediate platform and the highest platform of devotional service according to the development of his śraddhā [faith].” Again in Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.62) it is said:
‘śraddhā’-śabde——viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya
kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya
“ ‘By rendering transcendental service to Kṛṣṇa, one automatically performs all subsidiary activities.’ This confident, firm faith, favorable to the discharge of devotional service, is called śraddhā.” Śraddhā, faith in Kṛṣṇa, is the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Faith means strong faith. The words of Bhagavad-gītā are authoritative instructions for faithful men, and whatever Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā is to be accepted as it is, without interpretation. This was the way Arjuna accepted Bhagavad-gītā. After hearing Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna told Kṛṣṇa: sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava. “O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me.” (Bg. 10.14)
This is the correct way of understanding Bhagavad-gītā, and this is called śraddhā. It is not that one accepts a portion of Bhagavad-gītā according to his own whimsical interpretations and then rejects another portion. This is not śraddhā. Śraddhā means accepting the instructions of Bhagavad-gītā in their totality, especially the last instruction: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me.” (Bg. 18.66) When one becomes completely faithful in regard to this instruction, one’s strong faith becomes the basis for advancing in spiritual life.
When one fully engages in chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, he gradually realizes his own spiritual identity. Unless one faithfully chants the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, Kṛṣṇa does not reveal Himself: sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234) We cannot realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead by any artificial means. We must engage faithfully in the service of the Lord. Such service begins with the tongue (sevonmukhe hi jihvādau), which means that we should always chant the holy names of the Lord and accept kṛṣṇa-prasāda. We should not chant or accept anything else. When this process is faithfully followed, the Supreme Lord reveals Himself to the devotee.
When a person realizes himself to be an eternal servitor of Kṛṣṇa, he loses interest in everything but Kṛṣṇa’s service. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, devising means by which to spread the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, he understands that his only business is in spreading the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world. Such a person is to be recognized as an uttama-adhikārī, and his association should be immediately accepted according to the six processes (dadāti pratigṛhṇāti, etc.). Indeed, the advanced uttama-adhikārī Vaiṣṇava devotee should be accepted as a spiritual master. Everything one possesses should be offered to him, for it is enjoined that one should deliver whatever he has to the spiritual master. The brahmacārī in particular is supposed to beg alms from others and offer them to the spiritual master. However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or mahā-bhāgavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation one will eventually become degraded.
In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikārī Vaiṣṇava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaiṣṇavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.(END)
From: Madhusudana Dasa <july9t...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net>; mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; Kurma das not chef Prabhu <kurmano...@live.com>; Pratyatosa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; "ange...@yahoo.comlee" <ange...@yahoo.com>; "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>; "das...@streamyx.comChan" <das...@streamyx.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; magf...@wowway.com; Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 12:29:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
Bhaktatraveler
From: mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com; Madhusudana Dasa <july9t...@gmail.com>
Cc: Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net>; Kurma das not chef Prabhu <kurmano...@live.com>; Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>; Pratyatosa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; "ange...@yahoo.comlee" <ange...@yahoo.com>; "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>; "das...@streamyx.comChan" <das...@streamyx.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; magf...@wowway.com; Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>; miloni...@yahoo.com; "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 1:26:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
Madhusudana Dasa
What is it exactly that you fail to understand in my reply to you?
In the CC in the following quote Srila Prabhupada explains that Diksa
means 'receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness',
"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living
entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord
Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means
receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness." (C.c.
Madhya, 9.61, purport)
Your proposition is that the NOI5 purport refers to Diksa
> A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a
> Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples,
> but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood
> that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under
> his insufficient guidance.
My reply is that Srila Prabhupada explains that Diksa means 'receiving
the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness' (C.c. Madhya, 9.61,
purport) NOT 'insufficient guidance'.
1) So either Srila Prabhupada is contradicting himself
or
2) Your interpretation is lacking.
"Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental
knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination."
(C.c. Madhya, 4.111)
I would choose option 2) above.
What is the continual difficulty?
Mahesh Raja
Pratyatosa Prabhu
Can you defeat the the points Madhusudan Prabhu has made below?
You were also WRONG in your bogus Moon landing in defiance of Srila Prabhupada but did you apologise? NO!
You used to block my mail reply in the Istagosthi group and you have done the same with Urdhvaga prabhu - where is YOUR honesty?
ys mahesh |
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Patrick Hedemark
Hello Madhusudhana
Ritvik means empowered representative. This empowerment is at the discretion of he for whom the representative is acting. It is - exactly what he says it is. You have captured this definition of the word "ritvik" from either some lawyer named Krsna Kant Desai or from those who fancy themselves as "sanskritists" of some merit.
I could care a fig for their wishful thinking.
You show me in the May 28th conversation where Srila Prabhupada employs the word priest - or for that matter in the July 9th letter - as the definition of ritivik - as this Bengali Lawyer employs it and I will send you a case of Perfection of Yogas to distribute where you stand.
Now you ask with the impudence of a little boy "Wow, do you ever think about what you write?"
I would suggest that you "think" both while reading and also while inquiriing in such a sarcastic fashion because it is you that is provoking the hilarity here. What is being "formally" accepted - by both the disciple and the officiating acharya - is their mutual commitment to each and every requirement listed of the sincere disciple and guru and this is graphically and excruciatingly explained by HDG Srila Prabhupada in his momentous purport of CC Madhya Lila 24:330.
What constitutes the means to test the sincerity of the disciple - is likewise fully expected of and indeed verifiable in the character of the guru. Contrary to my saying this being "hilarious" - it is what constitutes KC 101 and you would do well to revisit this subject en toto. |
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Again you write:
PD:and any initated by them are in fact "disciples of my disciples;granddisciples". This he carefully addressed on May 28th 1977.
Reply:
Yes but not carefully understood by some. |
Srila Prabhupada spoke in perfectly understandable self evident English. His comments need no explanation by you are me or anyone. They stand alone. You flatter yourself if you think anyone requires your sagacious revelation of their ACTUAL meaning.
More silly nonsense by you here: |
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Why call them "officiating acharya" if they are regular? |
I didn't. Srila Prabhupada did. Accept it. |
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Truth is they are ritviks which are priests. |
Again this is YOUR definition - which you have lifted from some Bengali Lawyer who resists surrender to Srila Prabhupada's orders. |
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You can call them "mere" priests, "black" priests, "white" priests, whatever. They are priests SIMPLE AS THAT. |
No prabhu - you cannot call them black - white - mere - or whatever kind of "priest" you like
and represent the words of Srila Prabhupada with authority. You can only do so - when you interpolate your own definition in stead of loyally and lovingly and humbly accepting the direct statements of Srila Prabhupada.
Sorry to burst you bubble but you are simply inventing and calling it following.
Smoking fire and calling it "Kool".
Praghosa |
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Bhaktatraveler
From: Madhusudana Dasa <july9t...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net>; mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; Kurma das not chef Prabhu <kurmano...@live.com>; Pratyatosa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; "ange...@yahoo.comlee" <ange...@yahoo.com>; "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>; "das...@streamyx.comChan" <das...@streamyx.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; magf...@wowway.com; Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
Mahesh Raja
Mark Prabhu
Your favourite say is "no quotes no votes" I challange you to find the quotes where Srila Prabhuapada specifically says that Madhyama and Kanistha give can give DIKSA.
Maybe your cheer leader Pratytosa Prabhu can help you.
Also let us see you defeat Madhusudan prabhus answers. We are waiting.
740615rc.par Conversations Yogesvara: "Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?" Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guna, they cannot. (French) |
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ys mahesh
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To: istag...@googlegroups.com, "Madhusudana Dasa" <july9t...@gmail.com> |
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Bhaktatraveler
uttama-adhikārī, a highly advanced devotee, and his association should always be sought. uttama-adhikārī, a highly advanced devotee, and his association should always be sought.
sei-kāle kṛṣṇa tāre kare ātma-sama
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders to the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa accepts him to be as good as He Himself.”
Dīkṣā, or spiritual initiation, is explained in the Bhakti-sandarbha (868) by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī:
divyaṁ jñānaṁ yato dadyāt
kuryāt pāpasya saṅkṣayam
tasmād dīkṣeti sā proktā
deśikais tattva-kovidaiḥ
“By dīkṣā one gradually becomes disinterested in material enjoyment and gradually becomes interested in spiritual life.”
enlightenment (divyaṁ jñānam), he is fit for being initiated. Divyaṁ jñānam is technically called tad-vijñāna, or knowledge about the Supreme. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] when one is interested in the transcendental subject matter of the Absolute Truth, he should be initiated. Such a person should approach a spiritual master in order to take dīkṣā. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.3.21) also prescribes: tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. “When one is actually interested in the transcendental science of the Absolute Truth, he should approach a spiritual master.”
From: Madhusudana Dasa <july9t...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net>; mark mclaughlin <markm...@yahoo.com>; Kurma das not chef Prabhu <kurmano...@live.com>; Pratyatosa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; "ange...@yahoo.comlee" <ange...@yahoo.com>; "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>; "das...@streamyx.comChan" <das...@streamyx.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; magf...@wowway.com; Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
Pratyatosa
Conversations : 1975 Conversations : July, 1975 : Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:
Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice. (laughing) So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the man, the one party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and to go away, that means defeat.<http://bit.ly/dvyLWl>
It seems that to admit that you've been defeated by a bhakta is just too big a pill to swallow, right? :-)
Does the fact that you are a blind follower make you feel superior? All of this moon landing hoax non-sense has been thoroughly defeated on:
http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax.aspx
Can you defeat the points made on this website?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Bhaktatraveler
Cc: Nathan Zakheim <zak...@earthlink.net>; Kurma das not chef Prabhu <kurmano...@live.com>; Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com>; Pratyatosa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com>; Ameyatma dasa [ACBSP] <amey...@gmail.com>; "ange...@yahoo.comlee" <ange...@yahoo.com>; "cc...@yahoo.comdas" <cc...@yahoo.com>; "das...@streamyx.comChan" <das...@streamyx.com>; John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com>; magf...@wowway.com; Charlie French <ma...@setmedic.com>; miloni...@yahoo.com; Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com>; "sudhras...@gmail.comdas" <sudhras...@gmail.com>; urdhvaga USA. <urdh...@aol.com>; Yoland Y. Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 4:18:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Kanistha and Madhyama do NOT give DIKSA
mark mclaughlin
| Dear Prabhu, the failure appears to be yours. NOI 5 purport. |
"they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance" |
| Not advancing very well toward the ulitmate goal of life is DIFFERENT from recieving the pure spiritual knowledge that one is not the body but spirit soul, and that Krsna is God, which happens in the beginning for sincere neophytes who are initiated into that basic knowledge, by anyone else who has that basic knowledge, like a neophyte or madhyam devotee. It is that the progress to the ULTIMATE GOAL (Prema or ecstatic love of Krsna) cannot be reached by their insufficient guidance. That is the explanation. Hare Krsna ys B.Mark |
--- On Tue, 7/6/10, Madhusudana Dasa <july9t...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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