Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Abridged summary of istagosthi@googlegroups.com - 3 Messages in 2 Topics

[punyatamadas]

srila prabhupada and all the residents of his books care about those waiting patiently to see his movement take shelter of the guru who if you think of him he is there. a living guru who lives in his books for the next ten thousand years is that good enough for you mark prabhupada lives because he said he does and today his global body will give birth to millions of sound incarnations of the divine couple  jaya prabhupada

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 7:44 AM, <istag...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

  Today's Topic Summary

Group: http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/topics

• Mark says: "No one cares about the ritviks?" [2 Updates]
• Rocana Is a Hypocrite [1 Update]

 Mark says: "No one cares about the ritviks?"

Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> Mar 13 06:48AM -0400  

From <
http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/03/400000000-is-nothing-anyone-cares-about.html
>:
*
*
*Mark prabhu says "no one cares" about the ritviks...*
 
When and where did you say that, ...more

tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> Mar 13 05:45AM -0700  

This is another Mark 
 
 
________________________________
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:48 AM
Subject: ...more

 Rocana Is a Hypocrite

Bhakta Mark <markm...@yahoo.com> Mar 12 10:53AM -0700  

How "coincidental" is it that the lead article on the Sampradaya Sun today
is entitled *"THE ART OF HYPOCRISY"* ?
 
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 8:08:26 AM UTC-5, Pratyatosa wrote:
...more

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group istagosthi.
You can post via email.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an empty message.
For more options, visit this group.

--
--
You have received this email because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga Group. To post to our group for all the world to see, send an email to <istag...@googlegroups.com>. Getting too many emails? Please go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe> and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you. To cancel your membership, send an email to <istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com>. For more options, go to <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Ron P Conroy]

just yesterday i heard of a new iskcon pradigm for spreading krsna consciousness 

and diksha guruism . no joke intended.

what i've now heard is that any devotee in good standing, 10 years, may become a diksha guru.

the new initiating guru must have 10 signatures from devotee's all in good standing. no need to go thru GBC.

to myself this means no more diksha guru club, krsna consciousness is quatum expanding, which is needed since kali is also daily expanding.  

of course as human nature there will be those who decide they need no signatures which has already occurred..

[Ron P Conroy]

the lines between ritvik guru , diksha guru are intertwining since now it is broadly recognized that all emphasis goes upon Srila Prabhupada in the long run anyway.  no one,no devotee, at present living is on a level of devotion of Srila Prabhupada .

this is broadly recognized for unlimited good reasons .

 

On 13 March 2013 19:30, punyatamadas <punyat...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Pratyatosa]

If this rumor is true, then this year's GBC meetings are indeed
historic! Now it's just a matter of time 'til ritviks begin to
initiate on Srila Prabhupada's behalf within ISKCON, and guess who the
new recruits are going to gravitate toward! :-)

On Mar 14, 3:15 am, Ron P Conroy <satyah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *just yesterday i heard of a new iskcon pradigm for spreading krsna
> consciousness *
> *and diksha guruism . no joke intended.*
> *what i've now heard is that any devotee in good standing, 10 years, may
> become a diksha guru.*
> *the new initiating guru must have 10 signatures from devotee's all in good
> standing. no need to go thru GBC.*
> *
> *
> *to myself this means no more diksha guru club, krsna consciousness is
> quatum expanding, which is needed since kali is also daily expanding.  *

[Ron P Conroy]

jai prabhu, here in gainesville fl, krsna lunch , daily kirtans at the u of f plaza , i'm seeing so many new devotee's i'm loosing track.  and not only new devotee's i never saw before but wonderful new preaching devotee's.  yesterdays kirtans at the farmers market once very weds, was also greatly uplifting.. now the krsna house is having another 12 hour kirtan comming up with Ekendra prabhu and all others. i'm pushing to have it at the university so we can have a bigger hall and acomodate more devotee's and more people in general to become devotee's. there is a great need that everyone become devotee. of Srila Prabhupada   

[Ron P Conroy]

one of iskcon's initiating guru's told me that after Srila Prabhpada left he distanced himself from iskcon until 1986, when he realized that being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada he felt it his duty to try to help out the iskcon situation.  he did not go into any detail about why he had distanced himself, as many of us did, but i think this to be a much more laudable choice rather than to just sit back and critisize for years on end . he just did what ever it took to improve the situation and he most certainly did and does .  i don't want to mention a name since fault finders may get into specific negativity. 

Another famous book distributor told me, " what can we do", concerning the changing of Srila Prabhupada's books. he simply said there was nothing that he could do about it and continued strongly in his highly succesful services.. Again this is so much better than simply going away feeling bitter and negative which does no one any good including the persons feeling these emotions. 

there are other big gun cases i know personally of who simply said that words were changed and thats it .  onward upward.  he could do nothing about it so why get into a funk about something one has zero control over . 

for myself i'm realizing that i am still getting over what happened after Srila Prabhupada's departure.( i'm a bit slow to say the least), but at least i am getting over it, and feeling more positive overall about all of iskcon . and those who stuck it out. cause it is changing for the better .

ys

sd       

On 14 March 2013 03:29, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Pratyatosa]

If ISKCON is actually changing for the better and the rumor is true that "devotees in good standing" can now, for the first time, become "ISKCON approved gurus" without going through the GBC, then why?

IMHO, for all of the following 12 reasons:

1. Devotees who have "voted with their feet," and have left ISKCON.

2. Devotees who have left ISKCON, who publicly point out the mistakes that the ISKCON leaders have made, such as the Vedic Village Review, PADA, the IRM, <http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/>, and <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>.

3. Devotees who have stayed within ISKCON and are trying to rectify the situation from within.

4. ISKCON leaders who have openly rebelled, such as the leaders of ISKCON Long Island/ISKCON Bangalore.

5. Devotees who are openly Ritviks, but who have pioneered new methods of preaching Krishna consciousness. (See Ritvik Firsts: <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/eac83ced086c4ede>)

6. ISKCON GBC approved "gurus" who have had  spectacular falldowns.

7. Members of the original 11 "appointed gurus/acaryas" who have confessed that Srila Prabhupada only approved ritviks, such as Tamal Krishna das Goswami, and Hansadutta Dasa.

8. Public media exposés, especially the recent exposés in India.

9. Lawsuits.

10. The threat of future lawsuits.

11. Pressure from the Supreme Court of India.

12. The Female Diksa Guru (FDG) movement. (The GBC: "If we are going to have to allow women to become gurus, then we wash our hands of the entire affair!")

Any others?

Ys, Ptd

[Ron P Conroy]

of course these are all valid points .

one other point is that to tell brand new devotee's about iskcon issues is pointless, and useless endeavor for their personal advancement .  I forget who it was in Maha Bharat that said it is better to let bad news come of its own, as it will.  they will all find out in the long run and if they don't and all they do is follow the 4 regs, chant hare krsna , and go back home
, then there is no loss for them in not knowing about issues  and controversies . 

what is IMHO ? pleeze excuse my ig. i got the gist anyways. 

from where i see in the alachua gainesville fl area there is a constant flow and i mean constant and increasing, of new devotee's and preaching book distributing devotee's . constant and expanding. practically daily and weekly more are coming..

is it not best to train them up on all the positive aspects of krsna consciousness. 

telling new comers about controversy confuse's them.  as stated Krsna will reveal what ever their hearts seek. 

i have seen and see new devotee after new devotee, come, get foxed up and go on to be full time book distributors og Prabhupada's books. some may say but they may be changed books, would Prabhupada stop books from reaching those totally un aware of krsna consciousness.  for them they know no difference . 

iskcon has so much history now . but now is the time to try to make the whole world krsna conscious. in 18 days or hours. 

this will not be accomplished by talking over controversy after controversy . crows/swans  

dandavats 

better to get out on hari nam , dstribute books and prrasadam , and if time is left do more hari nam and more books and help new devotee's get trained up.    

 

--

[Nitya-Trpta]

Question to Gurukrpa: What happened the final months of SP’s appearance in connection with the process of initiating new devotees?

Answer: Nothing happened. In the beginning SP did the disksa, the yajna and the name giving. As the numbers increased, he
authorized GBC, and senior sannyasis to pick names and chant on the beads, etc. In 1977 during the months of May, June, July 1977 I was in Vrindaban with Srila Prabhupada, giving him his massage in his bed between 1 AM and mangala aratik. During the day, many letters would arrive. Satsvarupa Swami was the secretary and we decided that only letters that would give joy to Srila Prabhupada would be read. Like numbers of books sold, etc. A maximum of five letters daily were read
to SP.

After some weeks like this, there were stacks and stacks of letters, all relating to initiation. Hundreds of people were panicking that SP would leave the planet before they were given initiation. At this time, this situation was brought before SP in his room by Satsvarupa, Tamal, myself, and maybe some others. Up until this time it was a very simple matter that we were
doing the initiations, but we first had to ask permission. SP NEVER refused any recommendation from his senior men. And personally, I would sometimes argue with some GBC that they were giving it too easily.

At this meeting, SP basically said, “From here on, if you feel they are ready, then you may give the initiation on my behalf.” I
understood this for what it was, simply extending the authority a little further than it had been. Tamal Krsna Swami, began to say, “But who will do it?. Which devotees will do this?” Srila Prabhupada said, “The nearest one will do it. Whoever is closest.” Tamal said, “Can Bhavananda do? Can Jayapataka do?” Thus these eleven names came out.

Question: Why were you not on the list of eleven?

Answer: Because it did not matter. Srila Prabhupada said whoever was closest. I was already doing and Srila Prabhupada never
told me or anyone else not on the list to stop. For myself, it was not very relevant because I was working in Japan and did not have any new devotees to initiate. Tamal Krsna Swami, made these list of names himself and SP signed the letter. But they were only priests to act on behalf of SP.

Tamal asked about Bhavananda who was not a TP or a GBC at that time. And everyone new well of his homosexual tendencies. But, Tamal pushed his name, because he was already planning how to take over when Srila Prabhupada was gone.

Question: How did Tamal Krsna Swami become so influential at this time?

Gurukrpa: Tamal’s original service was as GBC in India. He left that service without permission and arrived in America. Within one year the temple presidents made a huge complaint to SP that he was disrupting the temples by taking important men. I was in the room when SP told Tamal to go to China. Hari Sauri’s memory of this incident is not accurate. Either way that is another story.

Tamal went to New York to prepare to go to China. And in May 1976, he showed up in a suit in Honolulu, a broken man. He could not get a visa to China, he had no service to do in India, and he could not go back to America, so he was quite depressed. Approximately a day or two later, SP called for Tamal and me at about 12:30 AM. He said, “My feet are swelling, my teeth are getting loose, I am passing urine too frequently. These are the first signs that death is coming.” Then he
sent us back to bed.

The next day TKG volunteered to be SP’s secretary, as the service was vacant at that time. From this position he could control and manipulate the environment around Srila Prabhupada. I can write many more stories that will shock people about
TKG’s ambitious nature and his desire to take SP’s seat. After SP left, in November 1977, I stayed in Vrindaban till Gaur Purnima 1978 and there was no discussion of guru during these three or four months, because SP’s last instruction, or as the ritvics call it, “The final order”, was that “Now we have build a framework.

There is no need to try and expand more. If we can just maintain our men and increase the chanting and hearing that is sufficient. We should sit down now and chant and hear.” There was NO TALK about initiations that I heard either in
Vrindaban or in Mumbai during these months. If SP has appointed these eleven as spiritual masters, why did they not start initiating at once?

Because they all knew very well they were never appointed! We knew the philosophy what is tattva darshi and what is Saksad Hari…but behind closed doors there was a plot simmering. In the GBC meeting of 1978 the initiation issue was brought up and it appeared they had already concluded that they were going to go ahead and say that they were
appointed. I asked Harikesh sitting next to me, ‘how are you going to let people call you a paramahansa? You are not a realized soul, you are a piece of shit. He turned to me with a smrik on his face, and said “What are you going to do about it?”

That is basically what happened, none of us could do anything after that. In 1978, Janmastami, TKG came to Vrindavan to give Sannyasa diskha to Bhagavan. I was the GBC at the time in Vrindavan. TKG called from Delhi and demanded flower garlands and a large reception greeting at the temple with vyasasana’s for them to sit on. I told them this is Prabhupada’s temple and everybody can sit on the floor. When they came I gave them no such reception, and the next morning in
Bhagavatwam, Bhagavan brought his politics into the class. I went and told him, if you ever do this again, bringing politics into Bhagavatwam class you will never speak again in any temple I manage.

That day, Bhavananda, TKG,and Bhagavan asked me to meet them in the guest house for a meeting. When I came, they said, why are you making waves? Just stop making trouble about this appointment of gurus and we’ll make you the 12th guru at the next Mayapur meeting. I told them, Prabhupada did not make anyone guru’s, you have to be a realized soul. They said
there was some talk about you in Japan doing some things, therefore Prabhupada did not name you. I told them you are now believing your own lies. They were silent. Bhavananda tried to speak. I told him to shut his mouth because he was a homosex and he had never done service and had been living off the money I collected and sent to Mayapur for construction.

Question: So how did everyone become guru’s, if Prabhupada did not make them gurus?

Gurukrpa: Had SP seen one of us as being capable, he would have named that person or persons, but he did not mention that anyone was fit. His Divine Grace B.V. Puri Maharaja, who SP said “is the only god Brother who is not envious of me”, ask SP “Please stay another 8 or 10 years with these boys.” SP’s answer was, “They are all hard headed, I have done all that I can do.”
Prabhupada said, “I can stay 100 years” many times, but he left after 81 plus a few months. In the GBC meeting of 1978, they shouted me down and they had already decided the fix was in. This was how the future of ISKCON was going to go.

Question: Is the GBC absolute since they are named as the ultimate managing authority?

Gurukrpa: Prabhupada said the GBC would be the ultimate managing authority. But that does not mean they are perfect, and they have perfect vision. The process of the GBC meetings during the years, we would have the meeting and report the days minutes of the meeting nightly to Prabhupada. Usually it would take 5 days. Prabhuapda said if you people were competent, you people would be done in 30 minutes. In 1977, Prabhupdad told us, just have your meetings and after 5 days give me all your resolutions.

After 5 days of meetings, the GBC filed in his room, sat down and read the resolutions; and one after another. Srila Prabhupada said, ‘No I do not want that, no that is not what I wanted’. He vetoed almost all the resolutions. So to say the GBC is the ultimate authority is correct, but that does mean that it is absolute. As you can see by how many guru’s have fallen down, and how many GBC’s have had difficulties.

Guru means one who has no other interest but to realize the absolute truth, Krishna. The guru, must have first realized the Name is non-different than Krishna. When I first joined the movement, we spent 9 to 10 hours a day chanting in the street. These present GBC’s do not spend that in a year. Hari nama eva kevalam, in this age only the Holy Name, only the Holy Name.

Your bureacuracy and your mangagement is not the process. The elitisim being shown by the GBCs putting themselves up on a platform, above all their god brothers is absolute arrogance and the greatest sin of pride, the opposite of the humble blade of grass. Krishna is the one giving all directions for those who can hear him. Must of us are now hitting 60 or more, we’ve made successful businesses, won some, lost some, raised our families, and personally I have gone to 25 straight Kartiks’ in Vrindavan. We have been excluded from SP’s movement, it started in the GBC meeting of 1978.

Still today, the people who have appointed themselves for life have had very little result. Rabindra Svarupa, the GBC of Hawaii, has come once in 6 years, and he will not give up the position. Kavicandra in Japan has done nothing there in 25 years. Even one of these GBC guru’s does not wear neck beads, tilak, sikah, or have any faith in the name is still a member in good standing. In the west, most of the temples have more deities than devotees. Most of the devotees are being paid, pujari’s
being paid, cooks being paid temple presidents are being paid, and they have to bring Indian devotees just to keep the bare minimum going.

I have witnessed over all these years how the elitist mentality of the GBC’s and guru’s have excluded all their god brothers. They have put themselves on a high pedestal. They have no taste for staying in the holy dhama’s of Mayapur and Vrindavna, and they run back to their comfort zones soon as they finish the meetings. In 1977, during the rainy season, all the GBC’s showed up in Vrindavan.. SP said, we should go in a room and make out his will for him. I.e., who would manage what properties and so forth…Kirtananda and everyone was there, and they were going on saying someone will do this, and someone will do that…

I noticed how they totally left me out. So I just went to the Yamuna and took my bath and came back to find them still dividing everything up. When they were finished, it was brought into SP room and read to him as he laid on his bed. After they finished reading the will, the first question SP asked was, ‘Where is Guru-krpa’s name’? I had already opened a dozen temples and collected the most money in ISKCON history, up to that point, and they totally left me out. But SP noticed it right away. So now, although I am the first executor in his will, and he told me to develop Hawaii and other places, (you made read the will), they also have totally neglected that order. Giriraj even came and asked me if I would resign
from the will. I told him, ‘How can I give up the order of the guru’?

It is not as easy for me as you people. There is no new blood in this organization, things have become stagnated and dry, not dynamic and the offense of neglecting all their god-brothers by excluding them from their spiritual birthright, they will have to answer to SP for this apparadha. Question: What is your idea of how the guru – disciple relationship should now be handled in ISKCON?

Love can not be insituationalized. I fell in love with SP the second I saw him. That is why I could surrender to the depth that
I did, to get the insurmountable service I did at that time. Once in Mayapur, Kirtananda came to me, and said “Why are you giving all that money to Prabhupada. You should give it to me, in America we are protected. The communist one day will come and take these buidlings away.. Prabhupada is making a big mistake.” I was shocked by what I just heard. At that time, Kirtananda was considered by Satsvarupa to be the greatest of the great, and the most divine of the divine. My answer was, I do not care what he does with the money. He can flush it down the toilet, for all I care, I just love to give it to him.

Its a matter of the heart. According to one’s state of the heart, if one has many material desires, he may say he loves Bhagavan Sai Baba, the Pope, Charles Manson. Its according to one’s sukriti. Krishna is sitting in one’s heart, He knows exactly what our intentions are. Before anyone has a right to ask a question, you must first enter the class. The price is surrender. Those who have not fully surrendered can not understand those who have surrenedered. Those who have surrendered can understand about everyone.

SP initiated thousands, he told me once in his room in Vrindavan, he said “My guru ordered me to go to the west, and I did
that. My main service was to translate these books and I did that. I have a personal desire to build these temples in India. That is my personal program. But they (his disciples) will not give me money and my head is getting hot. I have to translate these books, write many letters, and I am thinking how to raise the money to build these temples because my disciples have their own programs and will not give me money.”

So, seeing SP like this, I told him that from today forth, you just translate the books peacefully, and I will take the headache and go and get the money. When I walked out of the room, I could not believe what I just said. So to think all the GBC are 100% surrendered souls, and the gurus are 100% surrenderd souls with no self interest, and their only interest is to serve SP mission, they did not even care during his time(SP time). SP said he would be happy, if he could get one moon. To get one disciple who would be perfect, out of many thousands. How rare is a personality of SP character.

The GBC’s duty is to see that SP standard is being maintained. That standard is based on chanting and hearing, also becoming a lover of Krishna. If SP said I bless you, I give you a benediciton, it will manifest. He has the right, the adhikari to do that. If someone else says I am your guru, I am giving you diskha, can he give you Krishna? Can he give you the holy name? Can he take you to Vaikanthua? Have you been there, has the guru been there?

SP told me in the car in New Zealand, he turned to me in the car, and said, while you were building Krishna Balarama temple in Vrindavan. Krishna was building you a house in Goloka. I have seen it, it is very nice. That is why you can only surrender to the depths, to one who is from that place, and who can you give you that place, who wants that place, otherwise it is just a big show. Whistels and bells with no substance.

My view of seeing this organization, it is croniyism. Most of the leaders, their hearts are still, steel framed, they are self
interested. They are not self-less. They have stopped somewhere on this road back to Godhead; they are satisfied with their easy lifestyle, food, respect, honor, travelling all at the expense of the community and the younger devotees who go on the street. Its a long way from chant, dance and be happy.

Question: Then how did it come about that immediately after SP was not present physically, these eleven became worship able as paramahamsas of the highest order?

Gurukrpa: Because it is the cheaters and the cheated. People are basically sudras who want a master tell them what to do. They do not have sufficient intelligence, or spiritual knowledge, therefore they accepted; and the more realized devotees left , after trying to correct things. They were told to leave because they were disturbing the faith of the new disciples.
Because they could not take it any more any more they left.

Now it has become like the Pol Pot regime, “accept our way, or die.” Devotees never die, KRSNA is always in their hearts. They are the losers for losing the association of their brothers & sisters. The senior men can do something, other wise the new men cannot do without the association of the older devotees. Most of the older devotees now also do not have the missionary spirit. SP said, as a group we can’t be broken, but alone we are all easily broken..

The leaders have never cared for the God Brothers/sisters. They are happy when the see their brother get victimized by Maya, and never come to try and rescue them. Do you think SP is happy to see the present leader’s disciples at his temples and not his own disciples???? They talk of love of God, but they do not care one bit for their own family members, unless the family agrees to accept everything they say. They have no peers around them that may object to anything.

.

[Bhakta Mark]

If it was recognized that "all emphasis" goes to Srila Prabhupada, then no one would accept disciples by initiating them on their own behalf and then sometimes instructing according to Srila Prabhupada's standards, and sometimes making it up as is convenient.  Oh, lets do it this way.  Oh, lets do it that way.  After all, times have changed and we can't REALLY KNOW what Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do.  After all, we have been getting most of our standards handed down from the Zonal Acarya days, and the Books are changed, so "what can we do".

No.  Those who put all emphasis on Srila Prabhupada are patient.  They refuse the association of those who keep some of SP's standards but make up others.  They do research to find out what Srila Prabhupada wanted.  And only then do they accept anyone as Siksa disciples and give them any guidance.  And they certainly do not initiate them as their own Diksa disciples claiming that it is "just like ritvik" because I put "all emphasis" (when it is convenient) on Srila Prabhupada.

Why can't devotees just play it safe?  There are alot of basic activities that EVERYONE KNOWS ARE OK BY SRILA PRABHUPADA that we can engage people in without having initiations and playing Diksa Guru. 

What is wrong with having Sankirtana, prasadam and book distribution, a little daily arotik and kirtana, and just sticking with that?

You send someone into an Iskcon camp today and NO ONE there REALLY KNOWS any more than those basics listed above, but they PRETEND TO KNOW EVERYTHING, and by peer pressure they eventually initiate that new person as their disciple, and then GRADUALLY begin to give small concocted instructions to do this thing or that thing, which are total concoctions, and then the new person is headed down hill from there. 

It appears to be all out anarchy now.  

This is a good opportunity for someone like Cyvana Swami and his friends to canvass the environs of Gainesville Krsna lunch and Alachua temple and look to rescue a few souls who are otherwise going to be cheated.    In the madness of this new standard of anarchy, there will be no organized resistance to ritviks coming in and doing some stealth canvassing.

That is the silver lining.








They would accept disciples and put all emphasis on Srila Prabhupada.

[Ron P Conroy]

that was then ,

this s now , 

21 years later after Guru Kripa prahu's report .

if one wants to take association of iskcon , and become guru on behalf of Srila Prabhupada then you can. 

where is the difficulty ?

so things were done after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance , that was then this is now .

Suresvara prabhu just went around temples giving  Srila Prabhupada seminar's , making Srila Prabhupada 100% pre eminent.  Who dosen't know that now ? Some grave mistakes were made by these original 11, it is history.  Make the best of a bad bargain. If someone wants to open centers independent and actually spread krsna consciousness and books then good.

whats stopping you ?  the way i see it now , which ever ways one spreads krsna consciousness is krsna conscious.   Jiva's are all different, n 2 identical, so that is natural. If someone in iskcon now actually wanted to be guru without ultimate  glorification of  Srila Prabhupada , that would not be accpted. What Bhagavan das did telling his peers to worship him is no longer happening.  Neither is he any longer an iskcon guru for a long time .  Krsna does have His ways of rectifying things .

If someone wants to cheat they can get away with it for a short time and then finished .  cheaters and cheated . 

  Now is the time to unite as far as possible. Not to retain separatist mentality.  Srila Prabhupada is like a new Jesus Christ in his own way . He is becoming more famous daily. My friend Cyavana swami was told by Srila Prabhupada face to face, to initiate on His behalf when he is gone. So now he or anyone can do that from within iskcon or not. That is their choice . I think it is better to associate broadly to the best of one's capacity. why be separatist . Have you watched the class's and kirtans on mayapurarchives.com. They are wonderful , so many wonderful devotee's . These can not be esentially bad persons. They are all essentially good persons .  All conditioned souls are essentially good unless they really want to be Hitler like . Krsna is the Supreme Controller , this is the material world .

ys

sd        

[Ron P Conroy]

"stealth canvassing" 

Srila Prabhupada taught no such thing. Krsna consciousness is  open to all. 

stealth canvasing means trouble maker .  talk to bhakta's who are already pleased with their service, their fellow bhakta's their senior devotee's , and simply disrupt . why not go ahead and make your own new bhakta's if you can..thats like Narayan M disciples going around iskcon centers looking for new recruits.  sounds very un krsna conscious to me . sounds more like spy vz spy activities . wanna be a spy , join the FBI.

wanna be a devotee, join the eternal sankirtan movement . its simple for the simple devotee.   no need to spy and recruit. just recruit on your own if your so good. purity is the force.      

[Bhakta Mark]

I stand corrected.  It would no longer be "stealth" canvassing if there is no longer the fact that if you say "ritvik" you will be banned, beaten, or worse.

The rest of what you wrote was needlessly belligerent.  You appear to be the kind of person who is willing to compromise as long as every one "feels good".   "What true for you is the truth".  "Why can't everyone just get along."  Where I am from we call that "wishy washy"  Good luck with that.

[Bhakta Mark]

So now ignorance truly is bliss?

I do hope you can guide some of these naive kids to associate with Cyavana before they get sucked into the Sahajiya whirlpool of Iskcon Alachua and wind up cheated.

[Padmagarbha dasa]

It is said that one of the qualities which distinguishes humans from the animal species, is the ability to feel "empathy", compassion!  Factually, the bona fide spiritual master is the personification of empathy and compassion.  And it is the duty of the genuine disciple to pass on, to share that mercy of the spiritual masters!  Dharma is the order, the instructions of Supreme Lord  and his bona fide representative, and those who for the sake of sense gratification and envy either disobey and even more so, adulterate those orders [Dharma] fall in the category of demons.

A devotee's, a sincere disciple's natural inclination, motivated by empathy and compassion, but most of all  by loyalty to the orders of his spiritual master,  is to rescue those who have fallen victim to the propaganda of such demons.   " .... a siksa guru who instructs against the teachings of the spiritual [master] he is not a siksa guru.  He is a demon!"[SP}

So, for this fellow P.Conroy to suggest that those who have been victimized by the propaganda of such demons, whether inside or outside of "ISKCON", should be denied the truth, are to be kept from the opportunity of taken shelter [taking initiation] from the Lord's pure devotee, is either a sign of complete ignorance at best, or of full complicity with those demons who are the real enemies of Dharma.

 

"Therefore, having a bona fide spiritual master [diksa guru] and serving him and pleasing him and getting his mercy is essential.  Otherwise there can be NO advancement in Krsna consciousness.  And unless the spiritual master is a pure devotee of Krsna, then he has NO potency to give Krsna !  He is simply a cheating rascal !

   So, in fact, above all the rules and regulations and offenses I have mentioned, the most important thing, the essential thing, which is required, if you want to come to stage of purely chanting the Hare Krsna Mantra,

is, you MUST have a bona fide spiritual master [diksa guru], who is a pure devotee of the Krsna.  Without having a bona fide spiritual master you can chant Hare Krsna forever, but will not be able to advance, because Krsna does not reveal Himself in that way.  He ONLY reveals Himself to those devotees who surrender to and serve and please His pure devotee!"  [ letter by SP, July 1969]

  

  This philosophy  that  "as long as we chant Hare Krsna", regardless of our 'organizational affilliation', our understanding of the guru tattva issue,   we are all aspiring Vaisnavas,  members of Srila Prabhupada's family, this idea is sahajiaism at best!  It's similar to the 'born again' Christian's believe that

"as long as you accept Jesus, regardless of your actions, you are saved". 

 Actually, the main source of this most serious deviation, in my opinion, is the direct effect of just too many positions of leadership [Sanyasis, GBC's, and gurus] in ISKCON being held by those still identifying with, being influenced by there "jewish" values and conditioning!

Of all the major world religions, Judaism is the only religion that does NOT require the surrender to the Lords "pure" representative, the bona fide spiritual master, in order to advance  spiritually.  Judaism teaches that the following of the "rules and regulations", of the "process" alone is the way to salvation.

And basically that is becoming the the prevailing philosophy in ISKCON

Not only is it no longer necessary for ones guru to be a pure devotee, a bona fide representative of the Lord, but if the guru falls down one needs not get re-initiated  [as was the case some years back, after all the philosophy clearly states that one must have a spiritual master].  However, now those "disciples" whose guru has fallen, are told to just take shelter of the "process" [chanting, following of the four regs, reading SP's books, doing service,etc.]. The siddhanta taught in iskcon now is clear :  It is the "process" that delivers you, not your "diksa" guru.  ISKCON has become a form of Judaism [Ziontology] !                 pg

 

PS.

The main "saddhana" of the members of the 'Rama Krsna Society' , as taught by Rama Krsna, is Hare Krsana kirtan, yet,  Srila Prabhupada said of Rama  Krsna,  " Rama Krsna is the biggest demon that has lived in the age of Kali Yuga.  He has done more harm to Lord Caitanya's movement than any other living entity, and because of him the entire state of Bengal is going to hell".

 

8. Public media expos�s, especially the recent expos�s in India.

[Ron P Conroy]

no one is " denied the truth".  everyone finds out everything they want to in the long run.  no need to tell brand new devotee's about say, Monkey On A  Stick etc etc etc etc , as soon as they join. why not tell them all the bad news right off the start instead of about krsna consciousness ?  I just making a point that no need to tell a brand new devotee of all he bad news you can think of right from the start . as for calling me and other devotee's demons is fanatically crazy. and "enemies of dharma"  this is nutzoid talk .. its like telling brand new people on the street that during the end of this age of kali people will have lost their powers of speech, will be 2 feet tall, and will eat each other cause there will be no other food.   you just don't tell all negative sounding stuff from the start.   There are many iskcon guru's who say at initiation that i am initiating you on behalf of Srila Prabhuada and they of course tell them of Srila Prabhupada's most highly uniquely elevated nature .  whats your problem dude ?      

[Prayag das]

Padmagarbha prabhu:

In the CC Madhya Lila 15-108 Lord Caitanya says:

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

Prabhupada writes in the purport to that verse:

Similarly, the Rämärcana-candrikä states:

vinaiva dékñäà viprendra puraçcaryäà vinaiva hi
vinaiva nyäsa-vidhinä japa-mätreëa siddhi-dä

“O best of the brähmanas, even without initiation, preliminary purification or acceptance of the renounced order, one can attain perfection in devotional service simply by chanting the Lord’s holy name.”
 
Prabhupada does give different references in the purport, some supporting that initiation is not required and some that state initiation is required.  I have always been confused by the purport to this verse since the explanations are clearly contradictory.

In any case Lord Caitanya's words are not contradictory.

So are you saying that Lord Caitanya is wrong according to your viewpoint that one MUST accept diska from a pure devotee?

After all, one can accept Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master by following his teachings.  Prabhupada did say that initiation is only a formality.  And a bona-fide spiritual master does not teach anything that is in contradiction to the sastras.

I would be grateful if you can give us an explanation of how you formed your opinion.

Your servant,

Prayag das

 
 

[Bhakta Mark]

P.conroy says: "There are many iskcon guru's who say at initiation

that i am initiating you on behalf of Srila Prabhuada and they of
course tell them of Srila Prabhupada's most highly uniquely elevated
nature"

The problem with this is that anyone who has allowed themselves to be
voted in as a guru is already ignorant of the Gaudiya Philosophy.

The problem with this is that anyone who is a voted in Iskcon guru is
simply a conditioned soul who has also had to accept instructing
standards that are not the same standards as the Founder-Acarya of
Iskcon, or else they never would have been allowed to be Iskcon Gurus.

The problem with this is that they are saying one thing, and not
meaning it. It is a scam, they are hiding behind false glorification
of Srila Prabhupada in order to escape warranted criticism, and to
trick people into thinking they are respectful of Srila Prabhupada's
stature, while their actions show something different.

The good thing is that there are many things these Iskcon gurus are
forced to do which are generally more or less things Srila Prabhupada
would approve of. So new people are getting a small taste of the
reality of Krsna Consciousness IN SPITE OF the cheating nature of
these SO CALLED SPIRITUAL MASTERS.

HOWEVER, if they stick around these cheaters long enough, they are
bound to be cheated and heartbroken. Which is why you need to snap
out of your fantasy "its all good" illusion, and be serious about your
duty to guide anyone you possibly can away from these cheaters, and
not get comfortable associating with the programs these cheaters put
on in Gainesville.

Do you understand now?

On Mar 16, 1:22 am, Ron P Conroy <satyah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *no one is " denied the truth".  everyone finds out everything they want to

> in the long run.  no need to tell brand new devotee's about say, Monkey On
> A  Stick etc etc etc etc , as soon as they join. why not tell them all the
> bad news right off the start instead of about krsna consciousness ?  I just
> making a point that no need to tell a brand new devotee of all he bad news
> you can think of right from the start . as for calling me and other
> devotee's demons is fanatically crazy. and "enemies of dharma"  this is
> nutzoid talk .. its like telling brand new people on the street that during
> the end of this age of kali people will have lost their powers of speech,
> will be 2 feet tall, and will eat each other cause there will be no other
> food.   you just don't tell all negative sounding stuff from the start.
> There are many iskcon guru's who say at initiation that i am initiating you
> on behalf of Srila Prabhuada and they of course tell them of Srila
> Prabhupada's most highly uniquely elevated nature .  whats your problem

> dude ?      *

> >> *of course these are all valid points .*
> >> * *
> >> *one other point is that to tell brand new devotee's about iskcon issues

> >> is pointless, and useless endeavor for their personal advancement .  I
> >> forget who it was in Maha Bharat that said it is better to let bad news
> >> come of its own, as it will.  they will all find out in the long run and if
> >> they don't and all they do is follow the 4 regs, chant hare krsna , and go
> >> back home

> >> *, then there is no loss for them *in not knowing about issues  and
> >> controversies . *
> >> *what is IMHO ? pleeze excuse my ig. i got the gist anyways. *
> >> *from where i see in the alachua gainesville fl area there is a constant

> >> flow and i mean constant and increasing, of new devotee's and preaching
> >> book distributing devotee's . constant and expanding. practically daily and

> >> weekly more are coming..*
> >> *is it not best to train them up on all the positive aspects of krsna
> >> consciousness. *
> >> *telling new comers about controversy confuse's them.  as stated Krsna
> >> will reveal what ever their hearts seek. *
> >> *i have seen and see new devotee after new devotee, come, get foxed up

> >> and go on to be full time book distributors og Prabhupada's books. some may
> >> say but they may be changed books, would Prabhupada stop books from
> >> reaching those totally un aware of krsna consciousness.  for them they know

> >> no difference . *
> >> *iskcon has so much history now . but now is the time to try to make the
> >> whole world krsna conscious. in 18 days or hours. *
> >> *this will not be accomplished by talking over controversy after
> >> controversy . crows/swans  *
> >> *dandavats *
> >> *better to get out on hari nam , dstribute books and prrasadam , and if

> >> time is left do more hari nam and more books and help new devotee's get

> >> trained up.    *
> >> * *
> >> * *
> >> On 14 March 2013 10:06, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com<http://webmailb.netzero.net/webmail/new/DISABLEDSCRIPT:>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >>> If ISKCON *is* actually changing for the better and the rumor is true

> >>> that "devotees in good standing" can now, for the first time, become
> >>> "ISKCON approved gurus" without going through the GBC, then why?
>

> >>> IMHO, for *all* of the following 12 reasons:

> ...
>
> read more »

[Padmagarbha dasa]

Prayag prabhu,

 

kindly be more specific as to which of my 'opinion' you are referring to.  Are you referring to me quoting Srila Prabhupada on the absolute necessity of one pleasing ones spiritual master, ones diksa guru as a prerequisite for advancing in Krsna consciousness?  Or my belief that ISKCON has evolved into a form of Judaism, or as I call it, Ziontology?

If you are talking about the "need" of accepting initiation from a bonafide spiritual master,  you did refer to Srila Prabhupada stating that initiation is in the heart, and the ceremony,  the fire-sacrifice being but a formality. 
There are COUNTLESS statements in Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures as to the need for accepting a spiritual master.  Even Lord Jesus stated that, "no one can come to the Father but through me!"

Your name, Prayag, [unless you are of Hindu birth]  implies to me that you too chose to take initiation. 

Quoting Lord Caitanya 'out of context' does not make the case for one not requiring a spiritual master to make advancement in Krsna consciousness.  After all, Lord Caitanya, as well as Lord Krsna, and all the acaryas in our dsciplic succession preached by their example, they all accepted a spiritual master.

   When I lived as brahmacary in the ashram, back in the early seventies, I remember a visiting Sanyasi quoting Lord Krsna, "He who says that he is my devotee, he is not my devotee.  But he who is my devotee's devotee, he is my devotee!"

If my brief and clumsy effort to make the case for the need of accepting a spiritual master in order to make advancement in KC does not suffice, than I kindly suggest that you request the many "pundits" on this forum to further expand on this point.           pg

 

 

 

 

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Prayag das <digge...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Abridged summary of istag...@googlegroups.com - 3 Messages in 2 Topics
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 07:19:30 -0700 (PDT)


Padmagarbha prabhu:

In the CC Madhya Lila 15-108 Lord Caitanya says:

�One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

Prabhupada writes in the purport to that verse:

Similarly, the R�m�rcana-candrik� states:

vinaiva d�k��� viprendra pura�cary�� vinaiva hi
vinaiva ny�sa-vidhin� japa-m�tre�a siddhi-d�

�O best of the br�hmanas, even without initiation, preliminary purification or acceptance of the renounced order, one can attain perfection in devotional service simply by chanting the Lord�s holy name.�

 
Prabhupada does give different references in the purport, some supporting that initiation is not required and some that state initiation is required.  I have always been confused by the purport to this verse since the explanations are clearly contradictory.

In any case Lord Caitanya's words are not contradictory.

So are you saying that Lord Caitanya is wrong according to your viewpoint that one MUST accept diska from a pure devotee?

After all, one can accept Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master by following his teachings.  Prabhupada did say that initiation is only a formality.  And a bona-fide spiritual master does not teach anything that is in contradiction to the sastras.

I would be grateful if you can give us an explanation of how you formed your opinion.

Your servant,

Prayag das

 
 

 

--

[Prayag das]

Padmagarbha prabhu:

Yes I also lived in the Henry Street and Washington DC ashrams in the early 1970's (1973-1974) and am of American birth.  I took initiation many years after Prabhupada's disappearance.

I do not understand your claim that I quoted Lord Caitanya out of context.  What context?  I suggest you read CC Madha Lila 15.108 and it's purport.  The purport does unequivocally show contradictions between some of Prabhupada's other statements and writings concerning initiation.  For example in CC Madha Lila 15.108 purport:

"In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahä-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in païcarätra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished.

Apparently Prabhupada says initiation is not required, but it helps if one is initiated.

And:

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on puraçcaryä or puraçcaraëa, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on puraçcaryä-vidhi, or the regulative principles.

Let me repeat..."The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process."  What could be clearer?

This is a very, very important quote from the purport and goes to the heart of the diska/no-diska argument.

I have studied the Vedabase for years and and am well aware that there are conflicting statements concerning the need of first and second initiations.  Perhaps these statements, which were mostly in letters to various devotees were dependent on time and place, but the CC verses and purports were written for all and I would accept any statements in such sastras as universal truths.

Concerning the question of which of your opinions I was referencing, it is your opinion that one "MUST have a spiritual master [diska guru] who is a pure devotee of Krsna."  Also your statement that "Without having a bona-fide spiritual master you can chant Hare Krsna forever, but will not be able to advance"

Your opinion is not supported by the CC verse and purport above.

Therefore in my opinion if a sincere soul follows Prabhupada's instructions, follows the 4 regs and chants 16 rounds per day, initiation is not required, but at the same time would be helpful.  At least that is my understanding of the CC verse and purport.

It is misleading to tell an aspiring devotee they have to accept diska or they cannot make any advancement in Krsna Consciousness.  This statement would be in opposition to Lord Caitanya's instructions and Prabhupada's explanation of those instructions in CC Madha Lila 15.108.

Your servant,

Prayag das

[Padmagarbha dasa]

Prabhu, I don't have the time right now to  respond to your letter in depth; however, at the end of your letter you state that, if one chants 16 rounds and follows the 4 regs, initiation is not required.   Someone could argue that the quotes you mention from the CC say nothing of the need to chant16 or any "rounds" , nor anything about the following of the four regs., just that one can attain perfection by chanting the Holy Names of God [ones or twice, perhaps three times should be sufficient?]

You stating those particular disciplines, as laid down by Srila Prabhupada indicate that you are are accepting him as your spiritual master.  Disciple means accepting the disciplines ordered by the guru!

As Srila Prabhupada said, the ceremony is a formality.

You attribute the quotes I cited, of the need for a bonafide guru, along with one not being able to advance in Krsna consciousness, unless one pleases the pure devotee [ones spiritual master] , you attribute  those to me.  I clearly indicated that those were SP's statements!

My accusing you of taking Lord Caitanya's statement 'out of context', I see it just like ISKCON using SP's statement in the Nectar of Instruction, that an 'madhyama adhikary can accept disciples, as a license for them to become gurus.

As I said, Lord Caitanya, Lord Krsna, and all the Vaisnava acaryas in history preached by their example, they all accepted a spiritual master!

Srila Prabhupada's example of some one receiving an 'honorary' doctorate degree, without one having gone through the rigors of the official educational system,  applies somewhat in this case.. But SP points out that for all practically for most people that is not going to happen, and, therefor, a person aspiring for  such a degree, he is well advised to enroll in the standard educational system.                               pg

 

 

 

 

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Prayag das <digge...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Abridged summary of istag...@googlegroups.com - 3 Messages in 2 Topics

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 11:55:53 -0700 (PDT)

Padmagarbha prabhu:

Yes I also lived in the Henry Street and Washington DC ashrams in the early 1970's (1973-1974) and am of American birth.  I took initiation many years after Prabhupada's disappearance.

I do not understand your claim that I quoted Lord Caitanya out of context.  What context?  I suggest you read CC Madha Lila 15.108 and it's purport.  The purport does unequivocally show contradictions between some of Prabhupada's other statements and writings concerning initiation.  For example in CC Madha Lila 15.108 purport:

"In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna mah�-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pa�car�tra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished.

Apparently Prabhupada says initiation is not required, but it helps if one is initiated.

And:

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on pura�cary� or pura�cara�a, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on pura�cary�-vidhi, or the regulative principles.

Let me repeat..."The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process."  What could be clearer?

This is a very, very important quote from the purport and goes to the heart of the diska/no-diska argument.

I have studied the Vedabase for years and and am well aware that there are conflicting statements concerning the need of first and second initiations.  Perhaps these statements, which were mostly in letters to various devotees were dependent on time and place, but the CC verses and purports were written for all and I would accept any statements in such sastras as universal truths.

Concerning the question of which of your opinions I was referencing, it is your opinion that one "MUST have a spiritual master [diska guru] who is a pure devotee of Krsna."  Also your statement that "Without having a bona-fide spiritual master you can chant Hare Krsna forever, but will not be able to advance"

Your opinion is not supported by the CC verse and purport above.

Therefore in my opinion if a sincere soul follows Prabhupada's instructions, follows the 4 regs and chants 16 rounds per day, initiation is not required, but at the same time would be helpful.  At least that is my understanding of the CC verse and purport.

It is misleading to tell an aspiring devotee they have to accept diska or they cannot make any advancement in Krsna Consciousness.  This statement would be in opposition to Lord Caitanya's instructions and Prabhupada's explanation of those instructions in CC Madha Lila 15.108.

Your servant,

Prayag das

 

--

[Bhakta Mark]

There is no actual contradiction.

"So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says the medium is śāstra, and direction is
the guru. Śāstra also we cannot understand any book, what to speak of
the scripture. Sometimes we find contradiction in the scripture. That
is not contradiction; that is my poor fund of knowledge. I cannot
understand; therefore assistance of guru, a spiritual master, is
required."
(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 20.353-354)

In general, most souls coming to the Krsna Consciousness movement,
especially outside of India, are deeply conditioned to the lower
modes. So they will not begin chanting the maha mantra without
offense and continue will continue offensively. Therefore, they will
need to accept the 2 paths or processes of sadhana,

1. the bhagavata viddhi including as many of the forms as possible
such as hearing and chanting and the other 7 processes,

2. the pancaratrika viddhi including all the forms of arcana and yajna
other than Sankirtana yajna (including all applicable samskaras like
upayana or mantra diksa initiation), in addition to following the
rules and regs of one's varna and asrama.

That is why there are so many injunctions in that purport to Madhya
15.108 and others, which amend and qualify the singular and
exceptional statement that the chanting the holy name without offense
is not dependent on anything else.

That is a singular statement, and there are dozens of statements which
qualify it, which may seem to "contradict" it. These other statements
may appear to be contradictions unless you have been educated as to
how they are in harmony, as Srila Prabhupada did, and I am trying to
do now by summarizing what he said.

That singular statement regarding "immediate offenseless chanting"
ONLY applies in the exceptional cases referring to a devotee who has
perfected or nearly perfected sadhana in their past life, and comes
into contact with a pure devotee and picks up where they left off the
first time they hear and chant the mantra.

For EVERYONE ELSE, chanting is offensive in the beginning. And will
remain so unless there is strict sadhana under the vidhi marg
(pancaratrika vidhi) which includes mantra diksa. The only exception
to that last statement regarding strict sadhana is called KRPA SIDDHA,
and EVEN THAT REQUIRES FULL SURRENDER TO A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER
WHO IS A MAHA BHAGAVATA, because only such an uttama adhikari can give
such mercy to perfect someone without them having to follow rules and
regulations for any significant period of time.

And even such siddhas will still follow all the formal rules and regs
anyway to set an example.

Sri Rupa Gosvami says that learned acaryas recommend that we follow
the regulative principles even after the development of spontaneous
love for Krsna. NOI 16


There are two classes of men. Some of them are full of polluted
material things within their hearts, and some of them are materially
free. Krsna consciousness is equally beneficial for both of these
persons. Those who are full of dirty things can take to the line of
Krsna consciousness for a gradual cleansing process, following the
regulative principles of devotional service. Those who are already
cleansed of the impurities may continue to act in the same Krsna
consciousness so that others may follow their exemplary activities and
thereby be benefitted.
Bg 4.15 : PURPORT

So long we do not develop our pure love, we have to worship on the
regulative principles. One has to become a brahmacari, one has to
become a sannyasi, one has to perform the worship in this way, in the
morning he has to rise, he has to offer. So many rules and
regulations. There are at least sixty-four rules and regulations. So
we shall introduce them gradually as you develop. So in the viddhi-
marga, when you have no love for God or Krsna, we have to follow the
regulative principles and automatically..., there is practice. When
practicing. Just like you practice this mrdanga playing. In the
beginning it is not in order, but when you become well versed in the
practice, the sound will come so nice. Similarly, when we are engaged
by regulative principles in the worship of Radha-Krsna, that is called
viddhi-marga. And actually when you are on the love platform, then
that is called raga-marga. So without viddhi-marga, if anyone wants to
learn the raga-marga immediately, that is foolishness. That is
foolishness.
(Radhastami, Srimati Radharani's Appearance Day -- Montreal, August
30, 1968)

Prabhupada: Yes. Regulative principles are meant for everyone, all
varnas and asramas. Not that "I am now sannyasi. I have got the
highest platform. Therefore regulative principles is not meant for me.
It is for the kanistha..." This is rascaldom. Yajña-dana-tapah-kriya
na tyajyam. Yajña-dana-tapah. Tapasya. Following the regulative
principles means tapasya. So "I have renounced the world. Renounced. I
have become a sannyasi, renounced the world..." That doesn't mean I
have renounced all these things, yajña-dana-tapah-kriya. No. These
things are not to be renounced. Yajña-dana-tapah-kriya na tyajyam.
They are not to be renounced. Yajña-dana-tapah-kriya pavanani
manisinam. Even if you are, have become a great saintly person, still
you should consider, continue yajña-dana-tapah-kriya. This is the
injunction of the sastra. It should not be given up at any stage.
Pavanani manisinam.
All right. Chant Hare . (end)
(The Nectar of Devotion -- Calcutta, January 25, 1973)

Hope this helps.

Hare Krsna

On Mar 16, 2:55 pm, Prayag das <digger5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Padmagarbha prabhu:
>
> Yes I also lived in the Henry Street and Washington DC ashrams in the early
> 1970's (1973-1974) and am of American birth.  I took initiation many years
> after Prabhupada's disappearance.
>
> I do not understand your claim that I quoted Lord Caitanya out of context.
> What context?  I suggest you read CC Madha Lila 15.108 and it's purport.
> The purport does unequivocally show contradictions between some of
> Prabhupada's other statements and writings concerning initiation.  For
> example in CC Madha Lila 15.108 purport:
>
> "In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahä-mantra is so powerful
> that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and
> engages in païcarätra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will
> awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be
> vanquished.
>
> Apparently Prabhupada says initiation is not required, but it helps if one
> is initiated.
>
> And:
>
> The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation
> process. Although initiation may depend on puraçcaryä or puraçcaraëa, the
> actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on puraçcaryä-vidhi, or
> the regulative principles.
>

> Let me repeat..."*The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend
> on the initiation process*."  What could be clearer?

[Ron P Conroy]

regarding your 1st paragraph, i've noticed that you very verbosely find problems with everything.

is there anything else that you do  

[tim lee]

Most folks are just not ready to confront the bogus GBC guru process head on. Its just the way it is. Therefore, the GBC has got away will all kinds of crimes including murders and so on. At the same time, I cannot help but notice that so many of our contemporary devotees are passing away in their early 60s, if they even get that far. It seems that they wanted to peace out, yet their plan of not confronting does not seem to have helped them overall, they still ended up having a stressful (and thus shortened) life. A devotee told me he was going to take lessons on getting his anger and resentment out. I said, that is certainly not my problem, I let it all hang out there. As Krishna told Arjuna, either fight on the battlefield or not, the battle will affect you anyway, even if you sit under a tree. Sometimes destiny cannot be avoided. I feel sorry for the people who hold all this all poison inside, its seems to be -- killing them. ys pd     

[Bhakta Mark]

What nonsense.

If you have no ability to acknowledge good points, and no ability to
argue against points you don't agree with, why don't you just say
that?

Instead you say things like

"you find problems with EVERYTHING".

"Is there anything else that you do".

Making such childish statements is 100x worse than just saying
nothing at all.

Even better for you would be to admit that you really don't understand
the philosophy as well as you thought you did, and be grateful for
being given a little more information in such a polite way.

Sorry for your troubles.

Hare Krsna

On Mar 17, 12:22 am, Ron P Conroy <satyah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *regarding your 1st paragraph, i've noticed that you very verbosely find
> problems with everything.*
> *is there anything else that you do  *

> ...
>
> read more »

[Pratyatosa]

The 2013 GBC Resolutions have been published:

http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GBCRES2013.htm

...but as far as I can see, there is no "new ISKCON paradigm" for the approval of new ISKCON "gurus." Therefore, the rumor of an "historic GBC meeting" has apparently been proven to be false.

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:29 AM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

If this rumor is true, then this year's GBC meetings are indeed
historic! Now it's just a matter of time 'til ritviks begin to
initiate on Srila Prabhupada's behalf within ISKCON, and guess who the
new recruits are going to gravitate toward! :-)

On Mar 14, 3:15 am, Ron P Conroy <satyah...@gmail.com> wrote:

> *just yesterday i heard of a new iskcon paradigm for spreading krsna