Has Praghosa turned anti-ritvik?

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

It's coming from Praghosa Prabhu's traditional email address. Rocana Prabhu accused him of being a "fence sitter," but this is ridiculous.

Praghosa Prabhu, if you no longer support Srila Prabhupada's ritvik system of initiations, then please come out and admit it. I think an explanation is in order.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 3:01 PM, mark <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Srila Prabhupada covered that, it is in his writings, look it up and
learn.  Current Iskcon doesn't get it, and neither, apparently, does
Pragosha das if his latest post to Anuttama Mata was actually written
by him and not some clandestine attempt by Rocana das to make him look
bad.

 

[mark]

Sad.

What someone won't do to get their name in lights, and picture on the
altar.

On Mar 28, 7:53 pm, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <pratyat...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances.
> All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> It's coming from Praghosa Prabhu's traditional email address. Rocana Prabhu
> accused him of being a "fence sitter," but this is ridiculous.
>
> Praghosa Prabhu, if you no longer support Srila Prabhupada's ritvik system
> of initiations, then please come out and admit it. I think an explanation is
> in order.
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>

[Anuttama]

Prabhus,

Apparently Pragosh Prabhu thinks that when Srila Prabhupada ordered
the 11 to be ritvik gurus, it meant that they should get pranams, a
vyasasana and their pictures on the altar. Unfortunately we don't
know the level of worship that Srila Prabhupada wanted for the ritviks
because any recordings of any conversations regarding that matter are
missing. When I asked Pragosh about the missing recordings, he said
that they said the fact that they didn't find any "missing weapons of
mass destruction in Iraq was used to prove that the weapons actually
existed."

Personally I think that the devotees who were close to Srila
Prabhupada in his last days probably peppered him with questions about
how he wanted things to be run when he left. I think the fact that
these conversations are missing strongly suggest that Srila Prabhupada
didn't in fact want the ritviks worshipped. Yes, GKD, it is my
speculation. But it is unreasonable to think that the devotees who
really, really wanted to be gurus (as proven by their later actions),
wouldn't have asked Srila Prabhupada about this.

Pragosh Prabhu, this is important. In the near future many devotees
will be isolated and really should have a good idea of how to carry
on. It was some of your writings that led me to agree with the ritvik
conclusion. Why are you back peddling?

YS,

Anuttama

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

How are they doing it at ISKCON Bangalore? Those devotees are highly intelligent, highly educated, and have thoroughly researched the subject.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[mark]

An illogical deduction was made.

The fact that there is no record of Srila Prabhupada describing how a
ritvik would be worshipped is no basis to conclude that he deemed they
needed any special treatment or formal worship.

If anyone would be likely to bring one's natural sentiment to the
point of ecstatic worship, it would be the local temple president or
other senior brahminical men of the various orders. Despite
subjective inner feelings, there is standard ettiquette for worshiping
a worshippable brahmana entering a room for the first time, giving
class, coming to one's home, etc. which was instructed by Srila
Prabhupada an is standardly applied amongst the temple residents.

The Initiating Guru and Acarya of the Math/Asrama receives elaborate
Guru puja and Vyasa puja. This is the tradition established by the
current link to the BrahmaMadhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. Acarya's
privelege. Which means nothing to intensely motivated men who would
throw such an Acarya under the bus for a cozy place to receive worship
and sumptuous "prasadam". I am sorry to say, but bhoga offered to
those pictures doesn't go any further than that.

[larry freeman p]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqxS9TfS3Y

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:42:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Has Praghosa turned anti-ritvik?
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

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[ameyatma das [ACBSP]]

I finally got a minute, so i'll chime in. 

On many topics Proghos and i have shared eye-to-eye realizations.   It's been a while since i have read anything from him,  but, these emails were a bit surprising.  Obviously, on these issues we no longer see eye-to-eye.

My 2nd initiation was in 1975.  Srila Prabhupad hadn't been to West Coast US for some time,   there were many devotees up for initiation.  It was decided that there were too many to be performed at one time, so some of us were initiated via Rtvik process prior to SP coming.  Hrdayananda perfomed the ceremony,   Tulsi das took me upstairs to SP's room to hear Gayatri played via tape in my ear.  

There was no concept that we owed the Rtvik priest any special respect -  especially there was no chanting pranams to the Rtvik.   No worship of them or their photos.  Guru Dakshin was sent to Srila Prabhupad,  we were not even asked to give a paise to the Rtvik priest  -   although,   i think the proper Vedic etiquette would be to give the rtvik priest some donnation.  Still, we were never asked or encouraged to do so.  I have never seen any instruction like that from Prabhupad.

What SP describes via the July 9th letter was simply an extension of the process he had already established.  It actually only added one change, and a level headed analysis shows that change would not change the fundamental relationship of the rtvik priest and the initiated.    As the letter states,   prior to July 9th the system SP had established was that the TP's made the assessment on Prabhupad's behalf of the new devotee, and if that devotee met the criteria Prabhupad had set,   the TP would write letter of recommendation and send to Prabhupad.   Now, it says, the TP send the letter to the nearest Rtvik.   Not to SP.   Now, the Rtvik send back the reply to TP giving the names and the TP performs the ceremony and the initiates become SP's direct disciples.  Prabhupad is not physically involved.  But, all he was doing before was processing the recommendations the TP's made.  The TP's made the assessments -  and that really is a much more critical aspect of the rtvik process then automatically accepting their recommendations. 

We were never instructed to give any special respect to the Rtvik before,   and this change was no that significant.   

Praghos has children whom he has tried to give as much KC temple experience as he could,  and as such,  it is my guess at this point,  is that his teenaged to young adult children have chosen to take diksha from Indradyumna (maybe others),  and he did not prohibit them,  and has tried to be open to their choices,   and basically been influenced.  Possibly due to association -     which in some ways i can't blame him for the association part.   I miss the ISKCON life and association of temple devotees -     and so do my children.   They want to go to large temples and festivals,  but, they are all anti-rtvik.    But, it is sad that his, otherwise usually sharp intellect, as slipped. 

ys ameyatma das

[William J]

Hare Krishna

If anyone has any doubts about Srila Prabhupada wanting his ritvik system in place come to our website see what you think. I have made many videos and blogs with this most important subject in mind and the angle of approach I think is fresh and backed up authoritively and very simply for even the layman to understand. If there are any fence sitters here they fall right on their face on the side of Srila Prabhupada after watching whats on this site. Let me know what you all think. You have to join to get into the site though thats there policy on ning I think.
http://ritvik.ning.com/

Hare Krishna,
Gaurahari das

[Nathan Zakheim]

Anuttama prabhu,

PAMHO, AGTSP!

Perhaps the following will shed a little light on the issue.

On Mar 28, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Anuttama wrote:

Prabhus,

Apparently Pragosh Prabhu thinks that when Srila Prabhupada ordered

the 11 to be ritvik gurus, it meant that they should get pranams, a

vyasasana and their pictures on the altar. 

Not all devotees of SP realize that He had Ritviks perform initiations starting in about 1970  or 1971. He would accept recommendations, ask for the beads of the prospective devotees to be sent to him, would chant on them, and then send them back. Either the temple president or some brahmin in the temple would give the Maha Mantra, or Gayatri Mantra to the prospective disciple. SP was traveling teh world over, and hundreds of devotees sent in their beads for sanctification this is a known historical fact. We did not use the word "Ritvik" to describe the person giving the Agni Hotra, but Ritvik is what it was.

No honor was bestowed upon the Ritvik priest. He simply did the fire sacrifice and gave the new devotee their beads. Later, after the July 9th letter, SP had the appointe Ritviks chant on the beads as well. There was never any question as to who was the Diksha guru of these disciples. Everyone knew that the Diksha Guru was SP...The former iskcon guru Pandu's wife shared with us during the Prabhupada Pastimes at the LA Prabhupada festival, that "I was initiated with the Hare Krishna mantra, Initiated with the Gayatri mantra, and married by fire sacrifice two years before I ever met Srila Prabhupada or had any written communication with him."

In my mind, this rather destroys the "living guru"  myth.....in the end, very few initiates even MET SP, what to speak of accept personal guidance from him or had their questions personally answered by him. When pestered for personal instructions, one devotee received a letter from SP stating "Everything I have said is in my books...You will read and utilize".

So, in the words of SP His books were sufficient to supply knowledge and realization to His Initiates, most of whom had never corresponded with Him, or even met Him personally. There were many twice initiated Prabhupada disciples in BC Canada who complained that they never met SP once although they had been initiated for  many years, but they served Him on the basis of his Vani instructions, not His Vapu presence.

So, SP "set up"Ritviks as having NO vyasasanas, NO guru dakshine, No special honors or titles. They were addressed as "prabhu" (which means master) but otherwise were not singled out for more exalted treatment.

When SP set up the original Rittviks in 1977, he said that the Ritvik performing the initiation should be chosen by "who is closest". that is an obvious indication that the Ritvik would not have an ongoing  continuous relationship with the person that he initiated on behalf of SP.

No one performing Ritvik initiations from 1970 onward saw themselves as future "regular gurus". Hansadutta prabhu told me that in Germany, he was supposed to do the Ritvik initiation, but he did not like doing so, so he delegated it to the temple commander. This delegation of Ritvik duty did not negate the validity or potency of the initiation of the aspiring disciple.

The eleven Ritviks created the idea of successor guru out of whole cloth. SP never mentioned it once. He told Hansadutta prabhu to "continue to be Ritvik". He did not tell him to stop being Ritvik at any point. If this was discussed at all, the tapes have obviously been destroyed, and if there were instructions for successor gurus recorded on those tapes, then the Appointed Hopefuls would have been idiots to have let them be destroyed or lost. Since Tamal had complete control over these tapes, and since those tapes were spotted many years ago in Tamal's safe  in Dallas, it is safe to say that those tapes would not have helped the "successor guru" concept at all.

Unfortunately we don't

know the level of worship that Srila Prabhupada wanted for the ritviks

because any recordings of any conversations regarding that matter are

missing. 

Gauri Das Pandit prabhu is very aware of how many tapes were missing, and how many there were while he confidential served SP in His last days in Vrindaban. His oral testimony and proximity to the situation at that crucial time should be treated with respect.

When I asked Pragosh about the missing recordings, he said

that they said the fact that they didn't find any "missing weapons of

mass destruction in Iraq was used to prove that the weapons actually

existed."

Personally I think that the devotees who were close to Srila

Prabhupada in his last days probably peppered him with questions about

how he wanted things to be run when he left. 

This is exactly what Tamal stated in his famous "Pyramid House Tapes". That if SP had wanted his Ritviks to become "regular gurus" He would have spoken about it extensively until everyone understood exactly what He had in mind.

I think the fact that

these conversations are missing strongly suggest that Srila Prabhupada

didn't in fact want the ritviks worshipped.  Yes, GKD, it is my

speculation.

Why would SP change from not  having Ritviks worshipped to having Ritviks worshipied  after 1977?

  But it is unreasonable to think that the devotees who

really, really wanted to be gurus (as proven by their later actions),

wouldn't have asked Srila Prabhupada about this.

Pragosh Prabhu, this is important.  In the near future many devotees

will be isolated and really should have a good idea of how to carry

on.  It was some of your writings that led me to agree with the ritvik

conclusion.  Why are you back peddling?

YS,

Anuttama

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Praghosa Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Srila Prabhupada instructed us to take vanaprastha at age 50.

Vanaprastha literally means "go to the forest," but living alone in the forest is very time consuming and leaves very little time for preaching via the Internet. Therefore, the 21st century Hare Krishna vanaprastha should live alone in an apartment in town within easy walking distance of everything that he could possibly ever need to maintain his material body.

Here's what vanaprastha means to me:

1. No more going to temples. (The grhasthas should donate money to the sannyasis who should in turn maintain the brahmacaris and vanaprasthas, but the kuli yuga ISKCON so-called sannyasis keep it all for themselves and their bogus so-called disciples, so why bother? Going to an ISKCON temple now-a-days simply mean being hassled for money and to "do service." Besides, it's not good for your devotional creeper to associate with ritvik bashers.)

2. No more going to restaurants, including Govinda's. (Waste of time and money. Better to cook at home using a microwave oven.)

3. No more house to maintain.

4. No more motor vehicle to maintain.

5. No more grass to mow.

6. No more snow to shovel.

7. No more wasting time working at a job or a business.

8. No more classes to attend. (Whatever you need to know to do your preaching work, you can learn via the Internet.)

9. No more wife to maintain. (She should be placed under the protection of your grown up sons.)

10. No more family attachments. (Communicate with wife and children via email only.)

11. No more grand-children to babysit for. (Communicate with them via email also.)

12. No associating with friends, except via the Internet.

13. No more traveling.

14. 100% cold showers.

15. Save electricity as much as possible.

15. Wash your clothes yourself using buckets.

16. No TV.

17. No radio except when a show such as C2C AM carries something which might help in your preaching work.

18. No going to concerts, theaters, plays, etc.

19. No paying for Internet access. (Pick it via someone else's Wi-Fi, like I'm doing right now, or go to your local library. When I first taught myself how to create web pages, I didn't even own a computer. I simply spent several hours a day at the St. Louis University Library.)

It's frustrating to me that most of my godbrothers are so entangled, and therefore have very little time for preaching outside of their immediate circle of family and friends.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (http://causelessmercy.com/ http://rtvik.com/ http://pratyatosa.com/ http://feedacow.com/ http://llbest.com/)

[Patrick Hedemark]

My dearest brother Pratyatosa prabhu and all the devotees, Please accept my most humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, May I kindly comment on a few of your points for your careful consideration. "Go to the forest" means to take shelter of the Forests of Braja - and in Melbourne he asserted that residence or visiting any of his temples - home to the Divine Forms of Their Lordships Sri Sri Gaur Nitai and Sri Sri Radha-Govinda - is tantamount to residence in that self same Vrindavana.  We visit or reside in any and all such "Consulates of Vraja" for the exclusive purpose of capturing the opportunity to Chant the Holy Name (K-rsna Nama) hear and discuss the wonderful activities of the Lord and His sincere devotees (K-rsna K-atha) and to honor the Lord's wonderful prasadam (K-ichari) making us all members of the real and perfect KKK: Krsna's Klan.  Any resentment one might feel towards the residence of such transcendental "Forests" for their asking us to serve directly - or with our money - is merely the residue of our past material condition. Such conditioning needs to be overcome and the association of devotees steeped in absolute respect for this wonderful opportunity is the guidance of Lord Gauranga Himself. He urged the Kurma brahmana to come together for this purpose and in so doing - he would NEVER lose the company of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself.  If - for whatever reason - we elect to remain aloof from the association of the Vaisnavas in any of Srila Prabhupada's temples - feeling good reason to do so - then we are nonetheless called upon to create the above mentioned spiritual consulate - where we bloom.  After  providing this laundry list of means and methods you now employ to "comfortably"  meet your basic necessities - you take the opportunity to offer an indirect criticism of all those who do not appear to assign value to what you see as Srila Prabhupada's general instructions on Vanaprastha and Sannyasa.  I have to assume then that you are directly experssing your "frustration" with men such as Naranarayana Prabhu, Ameyatma Prabhu and Myself and also criticizing us directly for not doing as you are doing.  Are you really "frustrated" as you say? And if so - what is the evidence that you have in fact strained in every way possible to move us each towards your particular chosen path?  Naranarayana Prabhu accepted a new wife at what is technically viewed through the eyes of sastra at a very advanced age. I personally offered him my congratulations for his actions in this regard - assuming - due to my knowing him for the devotee he is - that she must have been a very fit candidate for this service otherwise he would not have offered her this shelter. (NNV - you never acknowledged receipt of my doing so by the way!)  Ameyatma Prabhu is a staunch devotee and a dedicated husband and father. He is my age (57) or older and with children still completely dependent upon him for his care and guidance. Likewise his wife is fully dependent upon him and his care and he lovingly assumes that care with great attention and enthusiasm. I applaud his efforts and his example. Why would you insist that he is in fact acting contrary to his responsibilities - now and follow your lead to move to some remote village and live his life in cyberspace as you now advocate?  Cyberspace is just a medium that facilitates the dissemination of information. It can never replace action in Krsna Consciousness. In short - we can use cyberspace to inform others what our duty is in Krsna Consciousness, and Why - but it cannot replace actual DOING anything.  Whether or not you realize it - you are misrepresenting yourself. I am sure you are not wishing to insult NNV, Ameyatma prabhu - or myself - but in your haste you have done this. NNV is senior to all of us in a myriad of ways and due to the role he played in the formation of Srila Prabhupada's introduction of samkirtan via his books and their inestimable art work, and the yearly celebration of Rathyatra, he can never be offered such a backhanded affront. In your effort to slight and embarrass him and others - you only sully our estimation of your capacity to grasp even the fundamentals of what is called preaching.  We all do exactly what we can to move forward in Krsna Consciousness. If we allow or pretend - that anyone else's actions in this effort  - fall short of the value we assign our own  personally adopted measures to move forward - we can and will hold that  opinion and we could in fact even express it - if anyone inquires of us seeking to share in what it is we appear to be enjoying. But offering such a provocative slight - "I am so frustrated by your inability to share my realization or ambition in Srila Prabhupada's service" is in my humble opinion - nothing more than self-serving criticism of those who might in fact be extremely dear to Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna.  I would suggest you adopt a slightly approach in this effort.  Let the devotees know what you are doing - sans the manipulative insistence that they should be doing the same, and even PRAY that they can come to discover the joy you now enjoy - being "freed from all anxiety" as Srila Prabhupada described the results of his own extrication from household life.  Remember how Hayagriva prabhu said - when asked why he followed "The Swami": "I saw that he had something. I did not know what it was BUT I grew convinced that whatever it was - I wanted it too!"  My first reaction to this letter was to compose a reply to each of your comments with my typical humor. I was tickled at all the opportunities it yielded in this regard. But the more I allowed it all to sink in - I determined that as humorous as I could be - the fact remained that you are crossing an important line with this one and I should not neglect to address it for you.  I pray that I have not offended you in any way by saying this. You are my senior brother and I have always admired you as well for all your great service to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada as a husband, father, technician and organizer of gurukula with your good wife.  If I have offended you in any way - kindly forgive me.  Your friend and brother always Praghosa  Incidentally - I also sometimes wash my clothes in a bucket, take cold showers 43.5% of the time, eat only kichari for days, refrain from mowing any grass, though I am still obliged to dig my way out when it snows(damn I cannot wait to renounce that one!), and don't own a car now for 10 years, don't go to plays along with chanting all my rounds, following the big 4 and all three of my Gayatris AND also distribute roughly 4 to 5 Hundred copies of Srila Prabhupada's Perfection of Yoga each month. So - I am sorry if I have contributed to your frustration in any way -  but I am working my way back to the "Charming Saint" Srila Prabhupada made me when I was so much more junior and I pray for your patience in getting there.  Thanks Prabhu --- On Mon, 3/29/10, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: Has Praghosa turned anti-ritvik?

[Anuttama]

I'm going to have to hide this forum from my husband (he's 67): no
mowing grass?

[Anuttama]

Pragosh Prabhu,

I was expecting a lengthy dissertation explaining your understanding
of why ritviks should be worshiped on the level of Srila Prabhubada
complete with sastric references and personal anecdotes. I even
scheduled reading time while I was making cheese. You are letting us
down!

But seriously, whenever we examine this issue, we first have to come
clean with ourselves and ask some questions of ourselves including:

--Do I have any desire to be worshiped? This is probably a common
desire of a conditioned soul and is mentioned in Siksastika. Any
latent desire for followers, even sub-conscious desire, can cloud a
person's analysis of the guru issue.
--Do I want to feel special in that I'm one of the only 4734 initiated
disciples of Srila Prabhupada? If ritvik initiations mean that the
new disciple is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, it takes away from the
"specialness" of the people who were initiated when Srila Prabhupada
was physically present
--Do I want to be a part of the ISKCON club? I've noticed that when
people join a church, everyone in the church has agreed to their
"special and true" interpretation of scripture. Catholics all believe
in the Pope, or they can't be a part of the Catholic club, Seventh Day
Adventists believe in being vegetarians or they can be a part of the
Adventist club, etc. We aren't immune from the desire to be a part of
the club. If someone is willing to tweek his understanding of Srila
Prabhupada's instructions in order to be a part of ISKCON, all that
means is that ISKCON isn't Srila Prabhupada's mission any more. Srila
Prabhupada didn't tell us that we had to come to a consensus regarding
his instructions, but rather kept his mission from being centralized
and insisted on high standards of behavior.

Pragosh Prabhu, several years ago you sent me a document where you
explained that Srila Prabhupada didn't want the ritviks worshiped, but
explained they served the function of linking the disciple to his
eternal guru, Srila Prabhupada. Why have you changed your mind?

YS,

Anuttama

Also, just on a practical level, when a neophyte devotee receives
worship, we've seen that it makes them crazy.

[Nathan Zakheim]

Dear Pragosa prabhu,

PAMHO, AGTSP!

Naranarayana Prabhu accepted a new wife at what is technically viewed through the eyes of sastra at a very advanced age. I personally offered him my congratulations for his actions in this regard - assuming - due to my knowing him for the devotee he is - that she must have been a very fit candidate for this service otherwise he would not have offered her this shelter. (NNV - you never acknowledged receipt of my doing so by the way!)

Sadly, I did not ever see your posting offering marriage congratulations, and I  am deeply moved that you so clearly understood my motives. I would rather have taken Sanyas, but I did not want to take sanyas outside of Iskcon, and taking sanyas inside of iskcon was out of the question.

If you go to Roupa Manjari dd's Facebook site, she is preaching up a storm, and I am very satisfied with having married her. She is a good preaching partner, and has a sharp incisive mind. She comes from a strong and brilliant family of high ranking physicians, an has a lot of their no-nonsense approach to life. So far, preaching in India and other countries has been totally "mind-blowing" for those who see us...dressed as devotees, leading Kirtans in the street, office buildings etc. The cannot figure us out, and that is very good, as it leaves the arena wide open for creating a "first impressin" of KC that they cannot compartmentalize into a trite memory. Two years ago, we were on a train between Ahmedabad and New Delhi, and we chanted for five hours, with over sixty people crowded into our first class compartment. We let everyone take turns leading the kirtan, and then later that night we noticed that a dozen of them were sending videos of the kirtan via their cell phones to distant places....

Anyhow, thank you once again for your kind thoughts and words.

Your eternal servant,

NNV das

[Nathan Zakheim]

Mother Anuttama prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances again and again! What you have
written below, is the best understanding of the UNDERLYING reasons
that even "rittviks" at times are attracted to the idea of being
worshipped and put on a red chair.

I confess that I invented the "red chair". Before what we now know to
be Vyasasanas, SP was quite happy sitting on a little durry, with a
round bolster at his back. The original Shayamasudhar prabhu showed
me a black and white engraving in a hundred year old book in German
(Using the old German lettering) and said...."we should build such a
chair for Srila Prabhupada some day.

Well, the next year, (1969) when I built the first Rathayatra car in
San Francisco, I remembered that four second glimpse of what appeared
to be a grand Indian throne to ride atop and elephant. Because the
book was in Old German, what little German I knew did not help to
understand the throne.

So, In 1969 I built the first "Vyasasana" to honor Srila Prabhupada,
and I installed it on the Rathayatra car in San francisco. Later that
year, Tamal asked me to build a much more opulent one for the new LA
temple on La Cientega Blvd.....So I did. that Vyasasana became the
model for all (or rather most) Vyasasanas henceforward. It has gold
railings, Mogul arches on the back, bolsters at the side and back,
and gold trim and a "Chatra" overhead.

I was standing right next to SP when He first sat on it in the new
temple, and as he sat down, His eyes shed copious tears. He said, "I
am not worthy to sit on such a seat, it is the throne of a
KING!...but for my Spiritual Master, I will accept it."....At first I
took His tears to be tears of humility, but now I wonder if He was
gazing into the future and knowing well that they would poison Him to
sit on such a " Kingly Throne".

in 1974, was in India, and visited the City Palace of Jaipur. (I
actually went to have darshan of the Dieties of Rupa Goswami which
are accross a long reflecting pool from the palace.) When I came down
the mall from the Temple of Govindadev, I stood where the King of
Jaipur had sat on his throne to contemplate these deities that are so
central to our worship and the mission of Lord Chaitanya. When I
approached the King's outdoor throne (under a portico) I realized
with an electric jolt that THIS WAS THE SAME THRONE THAT I HAD
DUPLICATED FOR SP TO USE AS A VYASASANA IN SAN FRANCISCO AND LOS
ANGELES!

It then occurred to me that SP must have had darshan of Govindadev in
Jaipur, He must have seen that throne, and so when He first sat on
it, He KNEW FULL WELL whose throne it was modeled after, and its
connection with the Deities of Srila Rupa Goawami.

So, I confess that I am the source of the envy that led to the
poisoning of SP. Few if any would have fought tooth and nail to sit
on an ordinary little indian rug, with a little white bolster behind
the seat.

I live with this day in and day out.

Your eternal servant,

NNV das

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[Nathan Zakheim]

Steve Perry commented on his photo album:

"So far personal association with the Guru is concerned, I was only with my Guru Maharaja four or five times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instructions, I have never felt any separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India who had constant personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders. This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be very puffed-up by his position, but all he can succeed in doing is biting the king. Personal association is not so important as association through service. 

Letter to: Satadhanya -- Calcutta 20 February, 1972 "

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Praghosa Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

You, like Gaura Keshava Prabhu, are living in a dream world.

Srila Prabhupada said "Rtvik representative of the Acarya," not "officiating acharya" or "regular guru."

Where are your exact, word for word quotes by Srila Prabhupada? Conversations prior to the July 9, 1977 letter and the 3 subsequent letters (two to Hansadutta, and one to Kirtanananda) do not count.

See http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/web/levels-of-authority for further
clarification on this point:

In summary, a quick chart of the levels of authority we might accord to the materials in this VedaBase, starting with the highest, could look something like this:

1. Books; Legal documents and similar papers

2. Lectures

3. Letters

4. Conversations

We must learn to use our God-given powers of discrimination in the service of God!

If the captain of the ship says '5 degrees starboard' and the first mate replies, 'But captain, before you told me 10 degrees port.', then it can be understood that the first mate has gone insane.

In other words, if a later instruction by Srila Prabhupada contradicts a former, then it's the later that we follow.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Patrick Hedemark <pdhed...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello Mother Annuttama  Please accept my obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.  You misrepresented my  comments on the Iraqi WMD issue as it pertains to this.  I said - whatever is missing - for whatever reason - is just that - missing and we have only what IS available on the matter. I insisted only that those who state that that what is "missing" is evidence of anyone's intentional malfeasance in the matter does not in and of itself PROVE the actual existence of anything.  I likewise said that what we do have - all the public records - establish fully that Srila Prabhupada ONLY established a system of initiation AUTHORIZED BY HIMSELF - THE NON-ERRING TRANSCENDENTAL AUTOCRAT - of "officiating acharyas" - who are in fact "regular gurus" BUT BY HIS ORDER.  They are ONLY "authorized" to represent themselves in strict accord with the teachings and directives of Srila Prabhupada BUT WHEN THEY DO they are as worthy of our unreserved "worship" as Lord Krsna Himself - being dear to Him. Who would dare to deny this? I leave that to you to answer.  Using this as our guide - we can easily see that their authority is rather limited BUT it is PRECISELY because and when they do so properly represent Srila Prabhupada - accepting the limitations he placed upon their position - that they are IN FACT REPRESENTING THE ACHARYA - as "regular guru" or teacher of this self same acceptance of the Preeminent Position of Srila Prabhupada. To worship means to assign ABSOLUTE VALUE to anyone or anything. In the final analysis - ONLY the Lord Himself and his paraphanalia and pure associate devotees are "worth" the assignment of such unreserved value. As Srila Prabhupada said "Love (purest worship) is for Krsna. And it is this "worth" that informs the very word "worship" from the Old German and English. Protestations against my position "OH Praghosa has lost his mind! He must be ill deviant or both" simply represent the very thing which GKD offers in his very own unique way.  GKD bedevils all of you so - Precisely because GKD - like Kailasa Chandra Das and Rocan Das to name but a few of note - rejects Srila Prabhupada's authority to place any limits upon anyone in the matter of who can and more importantly - who cannot - INITIATE within the ISKCON. GKD insists that the this is NOT THE DOMAIN OF THE GBC. His protest is that ONLY THE NEWCOMER has the authority and capacity to establish who IS "HIS" GURU.  IF he confined his claim to anyone - outside the boundries of ISKCON - his "buyer beware and cheaters be even more so" is perfectly in keeping  with reality.  But he insists that his conclusion - is the ONLY system Srila Prabhupada was "sastrically"  AUTHORIZED to leave us - and unless we are prepared to accuse Srila Prabhupada of violating the sastra - we HAVE TO CONCLUDE that  in the final analysis - and even though it defies all logic and reason - Srila Prabhupada left this important aspect of his mission - to the whimsy of any new man who might walk in the door; destroying both the UNITY of command and the CHAIN OF COMMAND it had appeared he had labored to formulate in the interest of the EVER INCREASING  DISTRIBUTION of HIS BOOKS.  Srila Prabhupada's system was simple and sublime. He taught us exactly how to observe the simplest features of sadhana Bhakti and those who insist that the gurus in ISKCON are violating his wish - in maintaining those standards - do no one and especially themselves any service in Krsna Consciousness.  I am anything BUT  fence sitter on this point. I have consistently written on this subject for nearly 10 years and my basic position has never changed.  I am not trying to convince you or anyone of anything. I was merely offering you my honest reply to your question.  If you or Mark or NNV consider that I am wrong - I can only say "That is of no importance to me". Those I guide are proof positive of the veracity of my position. I insist that my sons provide their "chosen" guru the utmost respect. This is so - because he perfectly insists upon their following Srila Prabhupada to the letter. They refuse to eat before their diety worship is completed, they study Srila Prabhupada with unfettered faith, and refuse to lay their head to the pillow before completey the minimum of 16 rounds of Sri Krsna Nama every day. They are in fact more diligent in this than even I and I worship them and their example.  Guru appears in an infinity of forms and officiating acharya - regular guru - is one of them and UNLESS he were to disappoint them and myself in the slightest way - the loving respect they they foreword him is and will remain consistently encouraged by myself and our sons mother.  Based upon your comments Mark has stated:

"An illogical deduction was made. The fact that there is no record of Srila Prabhupada describing how a ritvik would be worshipped is no basis to conclude that he deemed they needed any special treatment or formal worship."

This should be reconsidered in light of my above comments for the term "ritvik" was not defined by Krsna Kant or any other less than adorable interpreter. The term was defined by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada as "officiating acharya" and later very specifically as "regular guru" BUT by HIS order.  This "order" has been consistently rejected by those who reject the authority of Srila Prabhupada to create these "deputies" in the first place, beginning with Srila Sridhara Swami and then later Pradyumna Das in his letter of 1978, then the likes of Narayana Maharaja and finally Srila Prabhupada's own disciples; such as Kailasa Chandra, Gaura Kesava Das and Rocan Das.  All of these men - refer to their own envious and self serving misinterpretation of the term "ritvik" or officiating acharya when railing against it. I would no more allow any of these men to define the term than I would allow Ambrose Bierce's "Devils Dictionary" definitions of any word to inform my actual understanding of any word used in the commons.  Srila Prabhupada's system for continuing the presentation of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur is directly rooted in his acceptance of his order "If you ever get money - print books" and GKD and all who subscribe to his perversion of Srila Prabhupada''s system - are quite literally "paralysed" in their efforts to act upon the above order. They cannot transfer the will to absorb the this order and the emphasis it commands. They have no plan or means to move beyond talking, debating and/or condemning those who refuse to assign the same value to THEIR CLAIMS that they have themselves. They will talk till they die. But - they will never be able to move past their comfortable couch blathering and blathering on and on. Ever. They cannot actually ever go anywhere and open a center and commence to inspire the ever increasing distribution of Srila Prabhupada's books and the sadhana that sustains it. Never. They will remain stuck in the "just now coming" mode forever. Srila Prabhupada insisted that his every move, his every arrangement - had ONLY ONE PURPOSE; the distribution of his books and the means to act upon them.  The original 11 officiating acharyas or "regular gurus" were specifically selected by him - to the exclusion of the balance of his disciples (including Gaur Kesava Das I might add)- precisely because HE CONCLUDED (so stated) that this was all that was "needed" at that time. "Needed" for what? Maintaining the Unity and Chain of command established within his mission that served HIS purpose. What was that purpose? Merely and Only - the ever increasing distribution of HIS books - in his quest to follow this order from SBSST "If you ever get money - print books".  GKD has never lifted a finger to increase book distribution for Srila Prabhupada since I have ever known him - or of him. Neither any of the other men I mentioned above. They all have so much to say about the subject of guru etc. But this was the primary interest of Srila Prabhupada on behalf of SBSST and his system of initiation was merely an aspect of his arrangement to preserve this objective - even after his departure.  The only reason it all collapsed - is because the men so deputized by Srila Prabhupada were themselves the MOST GUILTY of misunderstanding the importance and relevance of the actual orders he gave them and the rest of us with this wonderful and fully authorized arrangement.  But failure is the pillar of success. It must be understood and accepted correctly and then simply implemented.  Anyone who does not - will simply remain paralyzed and other than expressing ad nauseam what "they will do" in the future they will never move past their speculative minds and take up the order to act in such a way that their capacity and efforts will serve in some way to actually realize consistent and ever expanding increase in the distribution and activation of the pure message of our Acharya Srila Prabhupada in his wonderful books.  Likewise those who insist that the officiating acharyas are not "regular guru" and until they renounce this idea - "I for one will not work with them or extend the simple basic respect obviated by that service in the service of Srila Prabhupada." Such men or women - will likewise merely flounder and cyberspace appears to be the perfect domicile for such persons today. Now I hope this is all right.  Before you fire off additional questions - kindly acknowledge receipt of all I have provided you free of charge and perhaps even a polite "Thank You" would also help to sustain a modicum of respect and affection between us.  Sincerely and most affectionately Praghosa

[ameyatma das [ACBSP]]

On 3/30/2010 5:31 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:

Dear Praghosa Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

You, like Gaura Keshava Prabhu, are living in a dream world.

Srila Prabhupada said "Rtvik representative of the Acarya," not "officiating acharya" or "regular guru."

On May 28th he did say Officiating Acharya   and he agreed, emphatically, that Officiating Acharya meant   Rtvik.   "Rtvik. Yes."  

And then he did say that those whom were initiated by the Rtviks would be 'their' disciples,  his granddisciple. 
And he did say that they 'can' become regular guru,    But,  On His Order.     

I got about 1/2 or more completed with my Flash presentation,  and i had to set it aside again,  probably for another month, as i got too tied up with emergency business work.   When I get it completed and released I will show,  via in-depth analysis,  exactly why there is a seeming discrepancy between what he said on May 28th and what was written in the July 9th letter.  I don't want to reveal the details of that analysis prior to releasing the Flash presentation because the Flash presentation covers all details, and walks the viewer through the analysis process tying in many aspects that would require too much writing to accomplish and lose everyone's attention.      But, via in depth analysis I will show, via Srila Prabhupad's own direct words, that what he said on May 28th was his final decision.   Besides,  I can recall the quote or saying,   but,  " you can say anything,   but, only commit to writing what you mean to say."   In otherwords,   as you point out,   there is a hierarchy or levels of precedence.  If SP says something in May,  that is one level,   but to commit a different thing in writing, with signature of approval, is a final and higher or highest level of precedence.  What is said later takes precedence of what is said before.  And, what is committed to writing, with signature of approval, takes precedence over a verbal statement.   ESPECIALLY with the added analysis i will reveal in my Flash presentation.  

The actual word Rtvik    the root is    Rta    which means  Truth (spiritual truth, or absolute existence).   And vi or vik means To Do,   or  'With'.   (I have seen Gaur Keshav give interpretation that the root is Rtu  which means Seasonal,   temporary.  But, this is wrong.     The root is Rta. 

Rtvik is only one of many forms.  In the Srimad Bhagavatam we find it given as    Rtvijah  rtvijas  rtvij   rtvigbhi  rtvigbhyah  rtvik        The main meaning is simply  a Priest.    A brahmana who performs sacrifices.    There are 4 types of Rtvik,  the Hota, Udgata, adhvaryu and Brahma  rtviks.   A Rtvik is a brahman,   a priest all to his own.  Thus, I find no injunction anywhere that would indicate that a Rtvik cannot also be an initiating guru of his own disciples.   However, in several places it gives Rtvik (rtvija) as a yajna  priest who performs the ceremonies -  separate from the Yajamanah, as assistant priest to the yajamanah,      who is the presiding priest or Acarya of a ceremony.  There are descriptions that one should give dakshine to both the Rtvik and the Yajamanah acharya,  but the Yajamanah is the Acarya - he directs the sacrifice.  As far as I could determine there is only one Yajamanah of a yajna, while there can be more than one Rtvija.     When there is a Yajamanah involved in the performance of an initiation, however, obviously the initiate will not become the disciple of the assistance priests (the rtviks), but will become the disciple of the yajamana, who is presiding over the ceremony as the acarya.     

Even though in May Srila Prabhupad may have spoke in terms of the Rtviks becoming the actual diksha guru,   he was not fully decided what he wanted yet.

10 months earlier he said:

Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement?
Prabhupada: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement.
Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already?
Prabhupada: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Reporter -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles

10 months before May 28th Srila Prabhupad hadn't even begun to think about how he wants to select or name a successor.   He hadn't even begun to decide yet. 

6 days later Prabhupad says:

Interviewer: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor is needed?
Ramesvara: He is asking about the future, who will guide the movement in the future.
Prabhupada: They will guide. I am training them.
Interviewer: Will there be one spiritual leader, though?
Prabhupada: No, I am training GBC, eighteen all over the world.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Magazine Interview -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles

So, 10 months before May 1977 Srila Prabhupad is saying he has not even begun to think about a successor,   then 6 days later he says there will not be a single Spiritual leader,    rather, there will be the GBC.    NO mention of any Guru,   just the GBC who will manage.  

In all of his instructions on the matter of successor,  how the movement will be managed in his absence,   SP only ever speaks of the GBC system of management.   He NEVER spoke of any Spiritual Masters,    EXCEPT on that one day, May 28th.   BUT,   he had not fully decided even on that day.       5 1/2 weeks latter, however,   as his health is deteriorating, he does finally decide and discusses the matter with Tamal in a series of meetings.  The result is that Tamal writes the July 9th letter based on not one discussion, but, multiple meetings and discussions with Srila Prabhupad.  The link to the May 28th conversation is made clear, specifically linking the letter to when Srila Prabhupad had said that he would soon recommend some of the GBC to act as Rtvik.   Srila Prabhupad said that in answer to how he wanted initiations to be conducted in the future.   Here in the July 9th letter lists 11 men to take up that duty.   But, even though he had given a preliminary idea in May that these Rtviks would be direct diksha gurus,  he was not fully decided then.  Now he had fully decided and committed his final instruction on the matter in Writing, to which he gave his Signature of Approval.     After he has committed what he wanted in writing and signed it,   the only way to change or alter it would be via another written and signed document.    No such changes were made.  This, then, becomes the final order on the matter.   It represents a gradual defining of what he wanted.   In June of 76 he went from not even thinking of the idea, to saying there will be no spiritual master successor, but rather GBC's,   to May of 77 saying he will appoint Rtviks, who 'may' become diksha gurus   IF he gives that order.  To his Final, committed to Writing along with Signature decision on the matter,    the Rtviks will Not become diksha gurus,  SP will remain the Diksha guru.  

[Nathan Zakheim]

If the first instruction is a legal document  or in writing and the second instruction is verbal, then the first instruction is to be followed, not the second. SP was well aware of  this, and for that reason, he structured is instructions to include written as well as verbal linstructions. The verbal instructions were for time and place, and may have differed from the written instructions, and his verbal instructions at times supported the written instructions. When supporting written instructions, then they can be considered on the same level as the written instruction.

NNV das

[Nathan Zakheim]

#26 memories tape by Siddhanta das is an interview with Puri Maharaja. On that tape, Puri Maharaja discusses a conversation that SP had AFTER July 9th. He basically criticizes SP for creating Ritviks instead of one guru successor. He says that the nine Ritviks will not be content to remain Ritviks, but will declare themelves to be "regular gurus", and thus create a problem for Iskcon. He states that the obvious solution would have been to select one solitary guru successor.  SP responds, "I have made that decision...what can be done"?.  (Watch the tape...it is excellent, what I have written is paraphrased, to give the gist of the conversation.) There is no indication in that remembered conversation that SP had ever appointed men to be Ritvik with the idea that later they were to become "regular gurus". We must remember that the tape was recorded many years after the gurus took over, so Puri Maharaja could easily have adjusted his memory to say that SP had intended this. From what he said, SP clearly DID NOT intend his Ritviks to become "regular gurus"......(IMHO, the whole Ritvik idea of July 9th, was "damage control" on the part of SP to prevent all hell from breaking loose while his most powerful and demonic followers fought for control of the movement, breaking it up in to pieces or destroying it in the process. The naming those particular men to be Ritviks was   not part of SP's world visioin for Iskcon to deliver the world, but a way of keeping unruly dissidents thinking they had duties, and therefore keeping their horrible plans from destroying Iskocn. Since Iskcon still exists, it is obvious that the plan worked. Once we have cleaned up Iskcon, and shown these demons up for the poisoners that they are, then SP's plan in appointing them in the first place will have worked splendidly.

nnv  das

[mark]

That regular gurus comment on May 28th was the ploy by Krsna's own
master strategist and tactitian. He was faced with the most ambitious
men on the planet and needed to keep them inspired and somewhat loyal,
just for a while longer, so he played to their ambition, and then
snatched it away in the end, and gave his final order in writing.

The quotes which have been provided that state that a person may
assume the role of diksa guru only when expllicitly ordered by his
Spiritual master are beyond dispute. Acayra of the Asrama makes the
call. Sorry wannabees, you are going to have to show your stuff by
wandering out into the wilderness and set up your own mission from
scratch if you "want to be" Diksa Guru so badly.

That should shake you back to reality. Just be a teacher, chant Hare
Krsna, and be happy.

> ...
>
> read more »

[july9th]

"And then he did say that those whom were initiated by the Rtviks
would
be 'their' disciples, his granddisciple."

Where does he say this?
Seems like some confusion.

I presume that you are refering to this exchange ..

(16) Tamal Krsna Goswami: No. He is asking that these ritvik acaryas,
they are officiating, giving diksa,
(17) (there)... the people who they give diksa to, whose disciples
are they?
(18) Srila Prabhupada: They are his disciples.
(19) Tamal Krsna Goswami: They are his disciples (?)
(20) Srila Prabhupada: Who is initiating ... (his) (he is) grand-
disciple ...

The following explanation from The Final Order makes sense;

Lines 16-18: Tamal Krsna Goswami seems to sense some confusion here
and interrupts Srila Prabhupada. He further clarifies Satsvarupa dasa
Goswami's question by asking Srila Prabhupada whose disciples are
those who are being given diksa by the ritviks. Once again Srila
Prabhupada answers in the third person (having been asked the question
in the third person): 'They are his disciples'. As we have discussed
he can only be referring to himself since ritviks do not, by
definition, possess their own disciples. Furthermore we know that he
was definitely referring to himself since he answers the question in
the singular ('his disciples...who is initiating'), having been asked
the question about the ritviks in the plural ( 'these ritvik-
acaryas').

One idea, which is sometimes put forward, is that at this point in the
conversation Tamal Krsna Goswami is asking the question in some
vaguely futuristic sense, about an unspecified time frame in which the
ritviks have somehow transformed themselves into diksa gurus.
According to this theory when Srila Prabhupada, who is now presumably
mystically attuned to Tamal Krsna Goswami's mind set, answers that
future initiates are 'his disciples', what he actually means is that
they are disciples of the ritviks, who are now not ritviks at all, but
diksa gurus. Leaving aside the fact that this fanciful 'meeting of
minds' is both unlikely and highly speculative, there is at least one
other problem with this hypothesis:

Up till this point Srila Prabhupada has not stated that the ritviks,
which he has yet to appoint, will ever act in any capacity other than
as ritviks. So why would Tamal Krsna Goswami have assumed their status
was to change?

Lines 19-20: Tamal Krsna Goswami repeats the answer, and then Srila
Prabhupada continues; 'who is initiating ... his grand-disciple.' We
have chosen the transcript version 'his grand-disciple' over the
version 'he is grand-disciple' since it most closely resembles the
tape, and seems to flow best with the sense of the conversation.
(Otherwise the person initiating would simultaneously become a grand-
disciple! - 'who is initiating ... he is grand-disciple.')

The argument that when speaking here in the third person, Srila
Prabhupada must be referring to the ritviks and not himself, can be
tested by modifying the conversation in accordance with this view,
replacing third person with first person statements (shown in
brackets), for lines 17-20 :

TKG: Whose disciples are they?
S. Prabhupada: They are (the ritvik's) disciples.
TKG: They are (the ritvik's) disciples.
S. Prabhupada: (The ritvik) is initiating ... (The ritvik's) grand-
disciple ...

Given the premise that ritviks are only officiating, and that their
role is only representational, it should be self-evident to the reader
that this interpretation of lines 17-20 is nonsense. It is a
contradiction in terms for a ritvik to have their own disciples, what
to speak of grand-disciples.

The accusation has been made that we are in some way twisting Srila
Prabhupada's words by taking third person to be first person
statements. However we feel our interpretation is consistent with the
function Srila Prabhupada assigned to his ritviks. There appears to be
just two possible options for interpretation in considering this
conversation:

1) Future new disciples were to belong to ritvik priests, who by
definition are not diksa gurus, but officiators who have been set up
specifically to act as proxies.

2) Future new disciples were to belong to the diksa guru, Srila
Prabhupada.

Option 1) is just absurd. Therefore we have gone for option 2) as the
only rational choice, and have thus interpreted the tape accordingly.

On Mar 30, 2:33 pm, "ameyatma das [ACBSP]" <ameya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/30/2010 5:31 AM, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP wrote:
>
> > Dear Praghosa Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble
> > obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> > You, like Gaura Keshava Prabhu, are living in a dream world.
>
> > Srila Prabhupada said "Rtvik representative of the Acarya

> > <http://pratyatosa.com/HansaduttaConfesses.htm>," not "officiating

>     Prabhupada: *That I am not contemplating now. *But there is no need

>     of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so
>     this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as
>     chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there
>     is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate.
>
>  >>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Reporter -- June 4, 1976,
> Los Angeles
>
> 10 months before May 28th Srila Prabhupad hadn't even begun to think
> about how he wants to select or name a successor.   He hadn't even begun
> to decide yet.
>
> 6 days later Prabhupad says:
>
>     Interviewer: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a
>     successor is needed?
>     Ramesvara: He is asking about the future, who will guide the
>     movement in the future.
>     Prabhupada: They will guide. I am training them.

>     Interviewer: _/Will there be one spiritual leader/_, though?
>     Prabhupada: _*No, I am training GBC*_, eighteen all over the world.

>
>  >>> Ref. VedaBase => Magazine Interview -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles
>
> So, 10 months before May 1977 Srila Prabhupad is saying he has not even
> begun to think about a successor,   then 6 days later he says there will
> not be a single Spiritual leader,    rather, there will be the GBC.    

> NO mention of any Guru,_   just the GBC_ who will manage.

> > Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/web/levels-of-authority

> > for further
> > clarification on this point:
>

> > /In summary, a quick chart of the levels of authority we might accord

> > to the materials in this VedaBase, starting with the highest, could
> > look something like this:
>
> > 1. Books; Legal documents and similar papers
>
> > 2. Lectures
>
> > 3. Letters
>

> > 4. Conversations/

>
> > We must learn to use our God-given powers of discrimination in the
> > service of God!
>

> > /If the captain of the ship says '5 degrees starboard' and the first

> > mate replies, 'But captain, before you told me 10 degrees port.', then

> > it can be understood that the first mate has gone insane./
> > <http://pratyatosa.com/RitvikBashersAreDemons.htm>

[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Why make things so complicated? The May 28th, 1977 conversation was superseded by the July 9th letter. The July 9th letter is the formal the answer to, "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted." The July 9th letter is the final, written, signed guru-tattva prescription for ISKCON, and it will stand up in a court of law.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

[july9th]

There is nothing contradictory, nothing to supercede either.
The July 9th policy document is the outcome of the May 28th
conversation.
'The Final Order' explains this issue clearly.
That's what forums like this are for, to clarify such points.

On Mar 30, 5:13 pm, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <pratyat...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Why make things so complicated? The May 28th, 1977 conversation was
> superseded by the July 9th letter. The July 9th letter is the formal the
> answer to, "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future,
> particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know

> how first and second initiations will be conducted. <http://rtvik.com/#2>"

> The July 9th letter is the final, written, signed guru-tattva prescription
> for ISKCON, and it will stand up in a court of law.
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>

[mark]

I agree with Krisnakants assessment.

It is a given that anyone who is teaching another person is in the
role of Guru when interacting with the student.

Who is initiating was, and is, the Initiating Spiritual Master of the
Matha.

The new initiate is Srila Prabhupada's Diksa disciple. He gives the
mantra and is taking the responsibility for that person's spiritual
advancement back to Godhead.

Simultaneously, Srila Prabhupada's representatives are, when following
his instructions to the letter, as good as a Siksa Guru, and the new
students are certainly under their guidance, and can be considered
accepting discipine. But they are first and foremost Srila
Prabhupada's disciple. The new student has an entire wealth of
instruction to compare his Siksa instructors words against, to test
and be sure that he is abiding by Srila Prabhupada's wishes. In fact,
he is reading Srila Prabhupada's books as the benchmark with which to
compare all other utterances from any other person.

Srila Prabhupada formalized this manner of categorizing and
classifying identities within his society for a reason. That some
cannot understand the reason, is one thing. They are sudra, and
should just accept. But instead, so many decide that since they can't
figure it out, Srila Prabhupada must have been mistaken. So they
poison his Vani with their speculation. Kill Guru, Become Guru.

Too spiritually weak to start their own Ashramic movement, they hijack
Srila Prabhupada's physical and intellectual properties, change them
to suit their agenda, and glide to hell.

So sad.

Hare Krsna

That the new discples may never contact his vapu directly, and be
disciplined by his disciples who were physically initiated by Srila
Prabhupada, makes them his grand-disciples.

[Nathan Zakheim]

The main point is that nothing spoken has any (legal) clout unless is
supports something written. SP Himself made a very clear distinction
between the written word and the spoken word in legal or formal
contractual matters.

Appointing a successor of any sort, material or spiritual is a
contract, and thus must follow the protocol by abiding to contractual
format. Contracts are very specific, and are not modify-able by
verbal commentary later on, even if that commentary is made by the
same persons who signed the contract in the first place.

It is said, "A verbal contract is not worth the paper it is written on".

As devotees, we tend to think (and rightly so) That SP's spoken word
is every bit as Absolute as His written word. That is so, but not
contractually. When it comes to contractual matters (like the DOM)
the written word trumps the spoken word, and this is a distinction
recognized in every culture and every period of history since the
Magna Carta.

nnv das

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[ameyatma das [ACBSP]]

To the assembled devotees, i will try to make this brief, since it is not a tangent issue.

I recently posted an email giving what i thought were the definitions for Yajamanah and Rtvik.  

I received an email from Gaura Keshava point out my errors,   and  I researched further and sent him reply thanking him for correcting my mistake. 

I want to herein correct that mistake, and inform everyone that I was mistaken. 

Regarding the meaning of the word  Rtvik  or Rtvij.   In some previous post by GKd he had stated that the word comes from Rtu which means seasonal or temporary.   And thus he stated that the post of a Rtvik is only for a short time, seasonal, or temporary and that when SP set up a Rtvik system it was only for a temporary time.  When I read that I did my own look up on the internet and I found a site that gave definition for Rtvij as a Priest who executes sacrifices or Divine Law.   I found that Rta means Divine Law or truth and vi can mean to execute, and this i took those as the root words.

Gaur Keshava wrote and informed me that this was wrong.  That Srila Prabhupad used the Monier-Williams Sanskrit to English Dictionary and that in that dictionary Rtu is given as the preface of Rtvik, and not Rta.    I actually have a copy of that dictionary, and so I looked it up,   and I herein admit that he was 'partially' correct, I was wrong.   Rtu is the preface given.    Ritv  however one meaning for Rtu is that it can pertain to the Seasons.  Yet, another definition is to mean   Timely,  or performing something (a ritual) at the proper time.   Thus, the actual definition is that Rtv means Timely or at the proper time,   and  'ij' is the root from yajna, sacrifice.   The dictionary definition for Rtv-ij is : "Sacrificing at the proper time, sacrificing regularly; a priest". 

I apologize for the mistake, and admit the mistake and correct it.  And, I thank Gaur Keshav for pointing out my mistake and correcting me.   However, his previous definition that a Rtvik is a temporary post is also incorrect.
--

Regarding the word Yajamanah   Gaur Keshava claims that this word does not mean an acarya or cheif performer of a sacrifice. He says it means the one pays for the sacrifice.  I have not looked this up further, but from SB in the word for word definition it says:    yajamanah--chief person performing the sacrifice.  SB 4.5.7    and  yajamanam--to the institutor of the sacrifice   SB 4.13.26.   I have not investigated further,  but, he could be correct,  as the institutor of a sacrifice could be the person who is paying to have the sacrifice performed.   However, that would mean that the definition 'Chief person performing the sacrifice' is a bit misleading, and it was from that verse and definition that i drew my conclusion.  In those verses Rtvik was mentioned separate from the Rtvik, and then in SB 8.16.53 it states that the Rtvijas are assistants to the Acarya and that one should offer ornaments, clothing and cows to both the acarya and rtvijas. 
 That is not so important however and does not change anything presented in my previous email, that Rtvik is not a temporary post.

ys ameyatma das

[Paul Howard]

Would a person be called rtvik when they're not actually performing a sacrifice?  If not, then it makes sense that the temporary nature could refer to the fact that the rtvik is representing the guru for the duration of the ceremony or sacrifice. 

 

In English we have a term "master of ceremonies" or MC, for example, and although someone may perform that function from time to time, the title only fits the person during the ceremony itself.  Would that sort of temporary nature apply to the rtvik?

[Nathan Zakheim]

A Priest gives Confirmation, a Rabbi gives Bar Mitzva a Rittvik gives diksha.....analagous...no?

nnv das

[Greg Jay]

PAMHO AGTSP

Correct!

GKD

[Greg Jay]

Here's the definitions from MW Dictionary come to your own conclusions.

Different definitions on different lines.

1. Rtu

m. (Un2. i, 72) any settled point of time, fixed time, time appointed for any action (esp. for sacrifices and other regular worship), right or fit RV. AV. VS.

an epoch, period (esp. a division or part of the year), season (the number of the divisions of the year is in ancient times, three, five, six, seven, twelve, thirteen, and twenty-four; in later time six seasons are enumerated, viz. Vasanta, `" spring "'; Grishma, `" the hot season "'; Varshas (f. nom. pl.), `" the rainy season "' Sarad, `" autumn "'

Hemanta, `" winter "' and Sisira, `" the cool season "

' the seasons are not unfrequently personified, addressed in Mantras, and worshipped by libations) RV. AV. VS. etcc. MBh. Mn. etcc.

symbolical expression for the number six VarBrS. Suryas. etcc.

the menstrual discharge (in women), the time after the courses (favourable for procreation; according to Bhpr. sixteen days after their appearance) Susr. MBh. Mn. etcc.

sexual union at the above time Mn. ix, 93 MBh.

fixed order, order, rule [BRD.] RV. i, 162, 19

light, splendour L.

a particular mineral L.

Name of a Rishi of the twelfth Manu.

2. Rtvij

mfn. (from the root {yaj}), sacrificing at the proper time, sacrificing regularly 

Rtvik m. a priest (usually four are enumerated, viz. Hotri, Adhvaryu, Brahman, and Udgatri; each of them has three companions or helpers, so that the total number is sixteen, viz. {hotR}, Maitra-varuna, Acchavaka, Grava-stut; {adhvaryu}, Prati-prasthatri, Neshtri, Un-netri; {brahman}, Brahmanacchansin, Agnidhra, Potri; {udgAtR}, Prastotri, Pratihartri, Subrahmanya AsvSr. iv, 1, 4-6) RV. AV. TS. SBr. KatySr. etcc. (ALL 16 types of Rtvik Priests are named above)

3. Yajamana

mfn. sacrificing, worshipping, etc.

m. the person paying the cost of a sacrifice, the institutor of a sacrifice (who to perform it employs a priest or priests, who are often hereditary functionaries in a family) SBr. etc.

f. the wife of a Yajamana BhP.

any patron, host, rich man, head of a family or tribe Pancat.

4. Yaj

to worship, adore, honour (esp. with sacrifice or oblations)

to consecrate, hallow, offer (with acc., rarely dat. loc. or {prati}, of the deity or person to whom; dat. of the person for whom, or the thing for which; and instr. of the means by which the sacrifice is performed; in older language generally P. of Agni or any other mediator, and A1. of one who makes an offering on his own account cf. {yaja-mAna}; later properly P. when used with reference to the officiating priest, and A1. when referring to the institutor of the sacrifice) RV. etc.

to offer i.e. to present, grant, yield, bestow MBh. BhP.

to sacrifice with a view to (acc.) RV.

to invite to sacrifice by the Yajya verses SBr. SankhSr.: Pass. {ijyate} (p. Ved. {ijyamAna} or {yajyamAna} Pat. on Pa1n2. 6-1, 108 [839,1]; ep. also pr. p. {ijyat}), to be sacrificed or worshipped MBh. Kav. etc.: Caus. {yAjayati} (ep. also {-te}; aor. {ayIyajat}), to assist any one (acc.) as a priest at a sacrifice (instr.) TS. Br.

to cause any one (acc.) to sacrifice anything (acc.) or by means of any one (instr.) MBh. R.: Desid. {yi4yakSati}, {-te} (cf. {i4yakSati}), to desire to sacrifice or worship MBh. R.: Intens. {yAyajyate}, {yAyajIti}, {yAyaSTi} Pa1n2. 7-4, 83 Sch. [Cf. Zd. {yaz}

5. Rta

mfn. met with, afflicted by (with instr.) TS. v

proper, right, fit, apt, suitable, able, brave, honest RV. VS. xvii, 82

true MBh. BhP. Mn. viii, 82 87 Bhag. etc.

worshipped, respected L.

enlightened, luminous L.

m. Name of a Rudra MBh.

of a son of Manu Cakshusha BhP. iv, 13, 16

of a son of Vijaya VP.

n. fixed or settled order, law, rule (esp. in religion)

sacred or pious action or custom, divine law, faith, divine truth (these meanings are given by BRD. and are generally more to be accepted than those of native authorities and marked L. below) RV. AV. VS. SBr. etc.

truth in general, righteousness, right RV. AV. MBh. Mn. viii, 61 104 Pancat. etc.

figuratively said of gleaning (as the right means of a Bra1hman's obtaining a livelihood as opposed to agriculture, which is {anRta}) Mn. iv, 4 ff.

promise, oath, vow TandyaBr. Laty. truth personified (as an object of worship, and hence enumerated among the sacred objects in the Nir.)

water L.

sacrifice L.

a particular sacrifice L.

the sun L.

wealth L.

ind. right, duly, properly, expressly, very RV. BhP.

({Rtam} {i}, to go the right way, be pious or virtuous RV.)

({ena}) ind. right, duly, properly, regularly, lawfully, according to usage or right RV. AV. truly, sincerely, indeed RV. MBh. i.

When you combine Rtu with the root Yaj you get Rtu + ij (yaj bcomes ij the ya changes to i by a grammatical process called samprasaranam) you get Rtu + ij then by sandhi or combination rules the u in Rtu becomes a v and you get Rtv + ij = Rtvij

the j in Rtvij becomes k by sandhi or combination rules Rtvij = Rtvik.

When you combine Rta with the root Yaj you should get in the same way Rta + ij  the a in Rta would combine with the i in ij and become e, Rta + ij = Rtej and later Rtek NOT Rtvik.

[july9th]

No.

A ritvik is a priest who performs the sacrifice on behalf off the
diksa guru.
He is not giving the diksa, the guru is.

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[Nathan Zakheim]

Yes,

The Priest gives Confirmation on behalf of Jesus, The Rabbi on behalf
of (?), and the Ritvik on behalf of SP
nnv das

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[Paul Howard]

Yes, and my sense about this was that the temporary nature of the rtvik is
that the he represents the guru for the duration of the ceremony only. This
is in contradiction with what Praghosa seemed to be saying, that the rtvik
continues to represent the guru even after the ceremony is done.

- Paul H.

Yes,

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[Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP]

Dear Praghosa Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. Please forgive me if I have.

A husband who doesn't have at least one grown son to give his wife protection obviously cannot take vanaprastha. We have to use common sense.

But, there is unlimited preaching to do on the Internet, and while much of it is being done, some of it in ways that I'd never thought of, there is still so very much that needs to be done. While I am trying to run this forum, I'm wondering if my time might be better spent doing something else for Srila Prabhupada. The trouble is, there doesn't seem to be anyone else who has the time to run this forum.

Therefore, I am a little frustrated. What to do?

BTW, as far as ritviks being worshiped, maybe that's the only way to ever get the current crop of ISKCON gurus to finally admit that they are actually just ritviks. Maybe to allow them to be worshiped pretty much in the way that they are now would be better than having them initiate on their own behalf.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa