Jamuna reached the stage of Bhava in 1970?

[Bhakta Wakta]

One time back in the 80's Jamuna Devi was traveling around bringing copies of her then unpublished cookbook to the temples so devotees could use the recipes for the Deities before it was published. The tp announced before her arrival that she was a very advanced devotee, for those who did not know her, and that "Srila Prabhupada said she had reached the stage of Bhava back in the early days.". I heard some women disciples of Srila Prabhupada scoff at that claim, older devotees, saying they had never heard anything like that before, but they saw me listening and said when Jamuna gets here we will straighten this out. I figured I would never hear the truth because back in those days the Prabhupada disciples were always keeping secrets from the rest of us. One devotee for example, cried as she was leaving in front of the whole temple. She wanted to tell everybody what was going on before she left she said, but the temple authorities would not let her. They threatened her she said, if she said too much, and then the tp told her she had said enough and it was time for her to go, or else they would do something to her after a statement like that. Now I know all the details as much as anyone, the gurus at the time were, for the most part, not qualified as later almost all of them would be exposed as having fallen down. But they were hiding that fact from the new devotees back then instead of telling them the truth out of fear no one would want to follow them if they knew how fallen most of them were.

So Jamuna came and gave class, then I went into the kitchen to cook an offering. I was alone in the kitchen when I heard the tp giving a tour to none other than Jamuna, who personally brought the book in. The tp went out the door and I thought now is my chance to ask her the question so I asked her, "Did Srila Prabhupada say you reached the stage of Bhava?"

"What?!" she exclaimed. "Who said that?! I never heard of such a thing!".

"The temple president" I said. "He announced it in class yesterday during Bhagavatam class when he said you were arriving."

"Who's that?" she asked, "The man who just brought me in here?"

"Yes" I said.

"Where is he?" she asked. I said right outside the door. "Well we'll just see about this!". She started stomping towards the door. So I followed, thinking I might get another piece of the puzzle of what the real truth is that was going on throughout the society at the time.

"Why did you tell the devotees I have reached the stage of Bhava!" she demanded from him. He looked flustered. "You-you HAVE haven't you?" he said. "You know it's not true, now just tell me the whole story."

So the tp told how at the Mayapur meetings that year the gurus were sitting around brainstorming and one of them, perhaps Satsvarupa, came up with the idea that "The men all have someone to look up to, the new ones anyway. But the women need someone they can have faith in. Someone they can feel is a pure devotee.". They all agreed. Then Tamal came up with the idea that "I know who we can get, Jamuna! She's an old devotee. We can make up a story about her and give the women something to believe in." So the story they came up with was Prabhupada said she had reached the stage of bhava. Back then the letters hadn't been printed and I don't remember if there was supposed to be a matching letter at this point or not. But part of what the devotees were speculating about was even if Prabhupada had said something like that about Jamuna was it a fact or not, or was it just in a joking or encouraging mood, as sometimes she had been known to be a little like that with Prabhupada.

"I am not going to go along with it." she said.

"Yes, it's already decided, you have to go along with it or you're out" he said.

"You can't kick me out because of that" she said, "besides, I have a letter from Srila Prabhupada saying I can serve outside of the authority of any men in the movement."

"We know about that letter" the tp said, "and Tamal said the GBC can change that any time they like. They can outvote you."

"You can't change the order of one's guru after he has left the planet!" she said.

"We can and we will" he said. "And you know what else we can do".

At this point I did not know they beat up Jadurani. I don't know whether they beat up Jamuna later on. I do know the devotee in the temple was afraid to speak after being threatened though.

"I'll have to think about it" Jamuna said.

Jamuna was looking at me. I was inside the kitchen by the doorway and the tp was outside and he asked, "Is someone standing inside the doorway I see you looking that way?" So I grabbed a pot and said, "I am just grabbing this pot here" and walked away. The conversation they were having ended right about then, I think the tp even asked me what I think but I said I was cooking for the Deities and walked back to the other side of the kitchen. Jamuna followed me and told me she was leaving the temple right away. She had planned on staying for a few days but after that she had to leave, and if there was anything I wanted to ask her about things now was the time. I asked her about the situation here at the temple and she said yes, all over the movement, anything I wanted. But I told her I had to cook for the Deities. She said I could always talk to her in the future and then she left. Within seconds a devotee came in asking why was Jamuna leaving but I couldn't tell her not because I was cooking but because I too was bound to secrecy out of fear of retaliation of some sort by the devotees in charge. Jamuna left in a hurry.

I only saw her one more time. It was about ten years later. By then it was no longer a secret most of the gurus had fallen down out of the original 11. Devotees could speak more openly about things but even to this day we have to be careful. I recently wrote to a former Godbrother of mine who still hides all the bad things that went on in the society to not confuse new devotees with all those issues. Maybe he right I don't know. But the reason I am printing this now in such detail is because some very old Prabhupada disciples heard this story from me and said I should. I feel I owe it to the society to reveal this now because one of the devotees said it made her feel much better about Jamuna knowing these things and understanding her situation? I forgot how she put it.

So back to the ten years later part. I saw Jamuna walk into a devotee restaurant I was working at with Hrdayananda Maharaja. I wasn't very busy but at the time I couldn't remember what I had wanted to talk to her about but I remembered it was something very important to me at the time. And I still hadn't read all the things online that finally told me what had happened to Srila Prabhupada's movement after he left. Don't get me wrong, I am as loyal to ISKCON as anyone. So I want to see what is wrong and what is right about it and help things go along the way they should, not that I have any power to do so, but that is my particular mood. At least I wanted to know what was wrong with things but I was patiently biding my time at this point, doing service, and I figured someday I would hear about all the injustices that happened, which by now I have. So Jamuna walks in and a devotee announced "There's Jamuna!". I said out loud, "I need to talk to her" and she came up to me and asked, "Do I know you?" and I told her yes, we had spoken before but she left before we could finish our conversation and now I don't remember what we were talking about but I remembered it was very important to me at the time. So she said she would send her friend over to talk to me for a while and if I needed to talk to her later she would come back. Her friend came over and asked me "Do you want to talk to Jamuna or do you want to talk to me?" I told her I wanted to talk to Jamuna. "Why does everyone want to talk to Jamuna is it because she is famous, why don't you want to talk to me?" I told her I don't remember why I wanted to talk to Jamuna that's why, and if I remembered why I wanted to talk to Jamuna I would be able to talk to her friend instead but I needed Jamuna to come over at least and remind me of what we were talking about. So she went and got Jamuna. Jamuna said she remembered me a little, but unless I told her what I wanted to know she wasn't going to remind me. Then she said one thing, "You don't know what I'm up against, or do you?" Now I realize she meant she still had to fight with devotees who were pretending to be more advanced than they were in order to fool their disciples into serving them in order to keep the movement going, and if she revealed that to anyone then that guru's disciples would go after her.

So the choice is either let the new disciples believe their gurus are more pure than they are, then when they find out they are not they lose faith in ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada, even in Lord Krishna sometimes, or, tell the truth and get beat up. And she was still afraid. She went back to her conversation and told her friend to stay there while she did I don't know whether it was so Hrdayananda Maharaja could speak alone with her so he would feel more comfortable or to help me but I asked her friend to do me one favor, to please remember in the future that what had just happened in that restaurant actually occurred, because there was still something very important to me that I felt I needed help with but I just didn't remember what it was. She said she would try if it was that important to me. I had to be satisfied with that, because my life as a devotee at that point was still one of wondering from time to time why it seemed all the older devotees were still covering for the gurus who were fallen. I never found out the whole time I was living at the temple how powerful all those gurus were, and how less intelligent. Did they really think they should imitate maha bhagavatas even after they were exposed as cheaters and threaten devotees who went against them? I asked myself that question from the first day I joined the temple practically. I wasn't stupid. I heard things here and there. But I never put all the pieces of the puzzle together until recently. This is why I am writing this post too. To help other devotees who wish to know these things.

So after Jamuna left her body I was on youtube looking at a video where she was sitting with another devotee who said Prabhupada wrote Jamuna a letter saying she was in Bhava. Malati. Jamuna did not say anything. So I told this to the local Prabhupada disciple and she looked up bhava in the letters books and said the word bhava was listed 19 times in all the letters and none of those were written to Jamuna. Was the letter written to someone else? Did Malati hear something we didn't know? Did Jamuna say what she did out of a sense of humility? Or was she afraid? Does her friend know the real facts about all of this and would she be able to speak openly about it if Prabhupada never said this about Jamuna to her knowledge? Or is she afraid of speaking openly about it too?

I hope that whoever reads this and has an interest in the truth will contact Jamuna's friend while she is still on the planet so the truth can be found out, because I saw how outraged Jamuna was that day in the kitchen, and I felt she was my friend, and I have always felt indebted toward her, because she was willing to risk whatever harm might come to her that day and tell me whatever I wanted to know about the movement. It is still Srila Prabhupada's movement and we still owe it to Srila Prabhupada that the truth be known if he never really said this thing but it was simply manufactured by a now defunct GBC.

[Mellanie L Nagel]

On 9/27/13 8:04 PM, Bhakta Wakta wrote:
> Did Malati hear something we didn't know?

Yes, I heard it directly from Srila Prabhupada in San Francisco (circa
67-68) after a particularly wonderful kirtan. He said Yamuna was
'experiencing bhava'. It was not like a big announcement, more like a
comment to a small group. Most of us, myself included, had no idea what
"bhava" was at the time.

[Nori Muster]

Thanks Pratyatosa for that. First, I did not know Jamuna was gone. Second, a lot of the women were enlightened, but did not show it. Third, one time Jamuna told me that Srila Prabhupada had invited her to be on the GBC, but the men stopped it. Maybe the story [quoted below] was the cover-up after they prevented her from getting on the GBC. Like, SP said she was enlightened, not that she was asked to serve on the GBC.

[Mellanie L Nagel]

On 9/27/13 9:00 PM, Nori Muster wrote:
> Third, one time Jamuna told me that Srila Prabhupada had invited her
> to be on the GBC, but the men stopped it.

Yamuna herself did not want to be "on the GBC." She was never a
managerial person at any rate and dealing with men who would certainly
oppose what not something she was inclined towards. (Actually, SP
suggested both Yamuna and Govinda dasi, giving each one 1/2 a vote each!)

[Pratyatosa]

On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Nori Muster <norim...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Pratyatosa for that.

This interesting/enlightening post came from "Bhakta Watka," not me.

Ys, Ptd

[Nori Muster]

oops - I guess because BW quoted something  signed by you, I thought it was an alternative email address

so you did not write that story

okay, roger that

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[Nori Muster]

When I worked in the ISKCON P.R. office, I tape recorded Jamuna when I asked her about women on the GBC. She told me that Srila Prabhupada wanted her to be on the GBC. She said the men stopped it. I still have the tape, so if you guys want me to, I can dig that up and listen to it. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I remember it.

[Pratyatosa]

On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Nori Muster <norim...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I worked in the ISKCON P.R. office, I tape recorded Jamuna when I asked her about women on the GBC. She told me that Srila Prabhupada wanted her to be on the GBC. She said the men stopped it. I still have the tape, so if you guys want me to, I can dig that up and listen to it. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I remember it.

A partial transcription of that tape would be great, if it's not too much trouble.

Ys, Ptd

[Bhakta Wakta]

So were you in error on that video on youtube where you said there was a letter written to Jamuna in 1970 by Srila Prabhupada saying this? And Jamuna didn't say anything about the real comment?

[Bhakta Wakta]

Just because the temple president said that certain gurus fabricated the story doesn't mean he didn't do it himself after getting caught spreading the story and trying to blame it on someone else. But I remember as she was heading out of the kitchen she started saying she had to make sure ahead of time now what it was going to be like at the other temples.

[Nori Muster]

Hi - I looked through my box of cassette tapes, then looked through my inventory at UCSB. The tape is held by the UCSB Special Collections Library. I already turned it in and did not make a copy.

1988 Interview with Jamuna Devi regarding story that Prabhupada wanted women on the GBC.

There is a chance that I did transcribe it years ago, so I am going back in my time machine to look for a transcript. (Not a "real" time machine, but an external hard drive with old files.)

[Nori Muster]

Hi all, I did a thorough search of my hard drive for the keywords Jamuna and Yamuna. All I found were more references to the tape, now held at UCSB Library.

I also found a reference in the paper I wrote for Maria Ekstrand and Edwin Bryant's book:

http://surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/postcharismatic.html (search for keyword Yamuna).

Next time I go to Santa Barbara I will get my hands on the tape and listen to it. I usually go there once a year.

As I recall, on the tape, Jamuna spoke firmly about the role Tamal Krishna and other GBC men played in closing the door on her and Govinda. She named him by name. She was also firm in stating that they acted that way against Srila Prabhupada's wishes. By the time we did the interview in 1988, things had changed. (Not enough for me to get permission to print a story in ISKCON World Review, but she was willing to speak to me.)

Maybe at the time it happened (early 1970s) she had to say it was her choice to decline, due to humility. As a former woman in ISKCON, I can tell you the lengths men went to to convince us not to take credit for anything. In my case, they did not want people like Hridayananda to know that I wrote nearly all the copy for the ISKCON World Review, especially toward the end. So I rarely took a byline and never told anybody outside of the editorial committee that I was the staff writer. 

But back to the point, if Tamal Krishna and the others had welcomed Jamuna and Govinda to the board, the women could have overcome their shyness, right? If it seems right, okay, but who wants to join a board where the members do not want you? 

Maybe Jamuna took the humble profile because you have to pick your battles in a situation like that.

On one hand, go on serving guru and Krishna. On the other hand get material status, but pick a fight with every chauvinistic man in the organization. How easy of a choice is that? The women I knew in ISKCON did not care about material status. If you did, you were in the wrong organization. Join Toastmasters, or climb the ladder at a corporation, right? ISKCON was where you went to have your ego pulverized by arrogant men. Just letting off a little steam on a Friday afternoon. . . . I am forever grateful to be out of the organization since December 27, 1988. Yeah!

Nori

On Sep 27, 2013, at 12:41 PM, Pratyatosa wrote:

[Mario Pineda]

Hare Krishna. Respects. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

It is obvious that Srila Prabhupada would say things like., Ramaswara is very intelligent. It is said he said that Tripurari dasa was the incarnation of book distribution. He may have said that Jamuna dasi was experiencing Bhava. My perception is that Srila Prabhupada said these things mainly to encourage devotees and to show appreciation for their attempts or efforts, but if we give true credit to the philosophy, we can not conclude that because Srila Prabhupada may have or did make these comments, it means that these devotees are actually intelligent or in bhava state all the time, or sme sort of special incarnation.   There is every possibility, that Srila Prabhupada may have said that Jamuna was in Bhava in a joking manner, or as I said earlier, was just admiring their efforts and trying to encourage his disciples.

We can conclude like this, because true intelligence is most rare, even after many life times of practice. Srila Prabhupada in a lecture about siddha or perfect state, said that in our cases, it would take "hundreds of thousands of life times" to reach the siddha state of Narada Muni and other such personalities. Bhava is also most rare, although a small glimpse (a few seconds) may be experienced by a few devotees. Such "wow" experience, gives us much faith and hope and a tangible idea that this KC process is for real and actually works and is divine by nature. But again, it's a few seconds onece in a life time in practically all cases and not an established steady condition. Not until many many life times of practice.

Obviously, Ramwasvara dasa is not an intelligent person, and although I know that Srila Prabhupada was very fond of Jamuna dasi, as he is of ALL his followers and disciples, my impression of her from the times I saw and heard her, is that I am sure she had issues in her life with anarthas (weaknesses and bad habits) as any other devotee that may be less known, and I seriously suspect she is having those issues still today.

The bad habits of illicit sex for example is most common in many many devotees. Some are illicit sex active heterosexual, others are illicit sex active bisexuals, and some are active illicit sex gay or lesbian. Others are active pedophiles! If we are not grossly active with these anarthas, we tend to have these in out minds, which is very much the same thing.
Of course, the different groups try to defend their society, culture or sexual orientation. I have seen in my own self, how I tend to say much more., active homo, or active pedophile, or active lesbian or bi person, than I say., active heterosexual, which is just as bad, but it's the culture or orientation I belong to, so I tend to defend it!
 So in this way, I have seen how those of other sexual orientations, also tend to defend their own anartha, or orientation. So as nice and dear to Srila Prabhupada devotees like Jamuna dasi and other "very advanced" devotees are, I don't think they are free from these anarthas, as much as they may have had a glimpse of the bhava stage at one time or another. I think it's important to not kid ourselves and others. My experience, is that a little investigation of the personal life of practically ANY devotees, in practically all cases, we will find the anarthas mentioned above active still, at least in the "secret" mind.

Of course there are other obsessions and addictions many of us have to deal with still. Over eating is a major one. Being a workaholic is another one. Being prone to anger and having a desire to be distinct in the devotee society, although in private, we are gross victims of the anarthas mentioned above, is another big and real stumbling block.  If any of what I have mentioned applies to any of us, then we should be honest and learn to not idealize ourselves or others so much, unless they are truly advanced. First, we need to see our actual condition and not be in denial of it, and only then there is hope. In others words, we must be honest.

Srila Prabhupada only said that Jayananda dasa prabhu was his ideal disciple and that he went back home back to Godhead. He also asked that his picture be in all Rathayatra carts ( another order that has not be fulfilled) and that his date of departure be part of the Vaisnava calender, as I understand it.

I think it would be most beneficial is we all understand more our fallen condition and thus not honor and try to promote so much ourselves and others, that have the same anarthas we have, but that we focus more on honoring, promoting and worshiping Srila Prabhupada, the previous acaryas and our God brother Jayananda dasa prabhu. Thanks for your reception.

Sincerely,

Mahatma dasa

--

[Nori Muster]

Personally, I see nothing impossible about a devotee chanting kirtan and experiencing bhava. Especially devotees like Jamuna, and others who were there as sincere seekers.

It probably happened all the time.

However, the ISKCON leaders made it a big forbidden taboo to think we were experiencing anything.

It always seemed lame that they present a system of loving God, but you were not allowed to get anywhere on it.

[Bhakta Wakta]

Still waiting for Jamuna's friend to check in on the topic. If Jamuna had been present at the actual kirtan Srila Prabhupada praised her at you'd think she would have heard about it from someone in that small group. Maybe they kept it a secret from her though for reasons of their own?

[Bhakta Wakta]

Actually Malati Prabhu the conversation I heard was 30 years ago. But what you said rings true to me now. According to what I remember from the conversation the reason Tamal picked Jamuna was there was already that quotation from Srila Prabhupada in existence. That is why he mentioned Jamuna as a good candidate for the devotee the female devotees could have faith in. When the temple president mentioned Srila Prabhupada had already said something about Jamuna after a kirtan one time Jamuna said, "He may have said SOMETHING but he didn't mean it!". I had forgotten all about that until just now because it was said during the middle of a rather heated discussion and was inconclusive to me at that time. I thought to myself, how could Srila Prabhupada had not meant it?

Back then all the quotes Prabhupada said were being quoted at that temple as gospel. So when he quoted for example that "None of you have any intelligence, but out of all of you Ramesvara is a little intelligent" to the GBC we were told this story. "The GBC were the most advanced devotees on the planet and Ramesvara was the most intelligent devotee out of the entire GBC. Therefore Ramesvara was the most intelligent devotee on the planet!" Other gurus had their own quotes which all conveniently made it into the Lilamrta I was told in order to prove to their disciples that they were the best gurus. Whether that is true or not I'm not sure.

Thank you for helping bring back this missing piece of the conversation to my recollection. It does change a lot of things. It also raises my appreciation and understanding of you too.

Hare Krsna

On Friday, September 27, 2013 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Malati Devi Dasi wrote:

[Mellanie L Nagel]

On 9/29/13 7:27 PM, Bhakta Wakta wrote:
> "He may have said SOMETHING but he didn't mean it!". I had forgotten
> all about that until just now because it was said during the middle of
> a rather heated discussion and was inconclusive to me at that time. I
> thought to myself, how could Srila Prabhupada had not meant it?

Please understand that this was Yamuna's humility speaking. She was a
genuinely humble soul. She never put herself forward and whenever she
was "in the lime light,: it was a sacrifice and a service. She preferred
to serve in the background.