Re: Taking Vanaprastha at Age 50 Is Compulsory

[Pratyatosa]

You are whistling in the wind, Vidura Prabhu.

Before I moved here, to Hancock, Michigan, I lived in at least 16 different places after taking vanaprastha, including ISKCON Bauneholm, Baunevej near Hillerød, Denmark, BTG headquarters at ISKCON Alachua, Florida, USA, and Rocana's oceanfront (rented) property on Gabriola Island, British Columbia, Canada (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriola_Island>). Not once did anyone tell me that I did the wrong thing to take vanaprastha. Everyone knows, except for a few highly self-motivated devotees such as yourself, that Srila Prabhupada told all of his male disciples in no uncertain terms: "Take vanaprastha at age 50! Compulsory!!!" (paraphrased)

Ys, Ptd


On Aug 28, 12:46 pm, Vidura Das <vidura...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You have provided one small piece of a quote that's hardly even in its whole context. Let's take a look at the whole context of your quote:
>
> "The Vedic principle is that you remain family life for some time, not for all the days. Pañcasordhva? vana? vrajet. As soon as you're fifty years old, you must give up family life. Compulsory. Therefore we have got... Vedic religion means var?asrama-dharma: brahmacari, g?hastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa, and brahma?a, k?atriya, vaisya, sudra. So for brahma?a, the four asramas are compulsory."
> Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.22 -- Bombay, November 22, 1974
>
> There are a lot of aspects to vedic rules and principles that we do not technically go by, one of which you explained previously. What we really go by, though, is Sastric injunction. The injunction is to renounce. What is this renunciation? Please see quotes below. It is not artificial. Varnasrama-dharma helps, but it is not what constitutes renunciation.
> Srila Prabhupada isn't issuing this as an explicit order to all of His disciples. He is simply explaining the general vedic principles. And if you are confused on the matter as to whether or not it was meant as an absolute order, then why not consult other places where Srila Prabhupada discusses this matter further? Any sincere disciple would do this. I have provided you with some nice quotes below where this [further explaining] is done. Please consult them.
> Earlier you provided a modifying quote from Srila Prabhupada regarding vanaprastha - that it isn't practical to go to the forest because then our preaching would not go on. So I know that you are capable of putting two and two together. Now I am asking you to put another two and two together. I want you to really consider these quotes because I think you're missing the whole point of Lord Caitanya's movement:
>
> "Sthane sthita? sruti-gata? tanu-va?-manobhi?. This was spoken by Lord Brahma, that there is no question of changing position. Caitanya Mahaprabhu never says so, neither sastras. But in a regulative way there are steps, brahmacari, g?hastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti."Room Conversation -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C
>
> One should train the members of his family in this way. The family members can sit down morning and evening and chant together Hare K???a, Hare K???a, K???a K???a, Hare Hare/Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. If one can mold his family life in this way to develop K???a consciousness, following these four principles, then there is no need to change from family life to renounced life. But if it is not congenial, not favorable for spiritual advancement, then family life should be abandoned."
> Bhagavad-gita As It Is - texts: 8-12 - Purport by Srila Prabhupada
>
> [Perhaps your particular family wasn't very congenial or favorable for spiritual advancement and that's why you had to take vanaprastha. If that's the case then just "be humble" and say so, but don't go around chastising everyone else. How do you know whether or not another persons family is working toward Krsna Consciousness? Do you live with them? And even if you did see that a family wasn't acting very favorable, what kind of "humble" and decent man would go around chastising that family and flaunting himself as being above them? That is a particular individual family and if they aren't very favorable then that's on them. They don't live in the temple facility so it is really no one's business but their own. Srila Prabhupada's (and Lord Caitanya's) order was to engage in Krsna Consciousness wherever you are. The only way anyone wouldn't be following this order is if, of course, they didn't do this.]
>
> "This is the process. If we hear about K???a...Sthane sthita? sruti-gata? tanu-va?-manobhi?. You remain in your position. Don't change. Either you are brahma?a or sudra or g?hastha or sannyasi, it doesn't matter. But you hear about K???a. This is the process. This is the first-class process."  Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.30 -- Bombay, November 30, 1974
>
>  "One may stay in whichever asrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyasa."The Elephant Gajendra's Crisis : SB 8.2.30 : Purport
> [How clear do you want it?]
>
> Indian man: Is it right that all the responsibility should be cleared up before...Prabhupada: You cannot clear up all the responsibility. Therefore up to fiftieth year. After that, whatever is done, that's all. (Sanskrit) But our philosophy is there is no question of giving up this or taking up that. Simply take to K???a consciousness. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. Either in family life or...Morning Walk -- June 21, 1976, Toronto
>
>  Quotes that you ignored from others:
>
> A grihastha or householder like you; you are also tridandi.   Because you have sacrificed everything, your life, your home, and your child, so you are a tridandi sannyasi, in fact. Continue this attitude seriously and sincerely, so you will be also as good as a sannyasi, even though you are in the dress of a grihasta.
> Letter to Rupanuga -- August 30, 1968
>
> "Renunciation is compete when it is in the knowledge that everything in existence belongs to the Lord and that no one should claim proprietorship over anything. One should understand that, factually, nothing belongs to anyone. Then where is the question of renunciation? One who knows that everything is K???a's property is always situated in renunciation. Since everything belongs to K???a, everything should be employed in the service of K???a. This perfect form of action in K???a consciousness is far better than any amount of artificial renunciation by a sannyasi of the Mayavadi school...."
> Karma-yoga-Action in Krsna Consciousness : Bg 5.2 : Purport
>
> One does not need to undergo any severe penance and austerity. He can live this life in devotional service, guided by an expert spiritual master, and in any position, either as a householder or a sannyasi, or a brahmacari; in any position and anywhere in the world, he can perform this devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and thus become actually mahatma, a great soul"
> Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is - Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 9: The Most Confidential Knowledge : Bg 9.14
>
> "A sannyasi is supposed to be free from the reactions of his past activities, but a person who is in K???a consciousness automatically attains this perfection without even accepting the so-called order of renunciation. This state of mind is called yogaru?ha, or the perfectional stage of yoga, as confirmed in the Third Chapter: yas tv atma-ratir eva syat."
> Conclusion-The Perfection of Renunciation : Bg 18.49 : Purport
>
> What do you have to say to these quotes? Please don't ignore them this time. How can I (we) be expected to hold a decent discussion with you if you ignore the proof provided?
> I hope you can put aside any false pride and come to understand this very simple aspect of Krsna Consciousness and Lord Caitanya's and Srila Prabhupada's teachings. There are a lot larger issues that should be dealt with. What we need is cooperation in establishing Srila Prabhupada as the Diksa Guru of ISKCON. We do not need petty little arguments about whether or not one should take vanaprastha. Srila Prabhupada said that our love for Him will be shown by how much we cooperate amongst each other. Right now the real matter is bringing Srila Prabhupada back to the center. You are creating so many waves in this effort. Please re-consider your actions. At least save your complaints for later. Right now let us do the needful: establish Srila Prabhupada as the sole Diksa Guru of ISKCON. Don't you care at all? Or do you just want to argue, argue, argue? You are not showing too much love for our father.
> Nevertheless, if you do want to simply argue, then start with addressing our quotes. Otherwise where is the argument? So first learn how to argue, then argue. Or else it is just name calling (as you have so far demonstrated).
>
> Hare Krsna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> ys, vd

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Puranjana Prabhu, you, like Vidura Prabhu, are whistling in the wind.

Rupanuga had not yet reached the age of 50 when Srila Prabhupada wrote him that letter, so it does not apply. Nice try, but to jail you go. "Don't pass Go. Don't collect $200!"

Ys, Ptd

On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 1:21 PM, tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear prabhus, Artificial renunciation has been at the root of most of the troubles in ISKCON. Lord Chaitanya also orders people "stiti-stani" -- stay in your place and execute devotional service at your home. You also cannot lift one quote out of context to prove anything. And besides, look at the quote to Rupanuga, you are equal to a tri-dandi because you and your wife are serving me. The ritviks are not against anyone taking varnaprastha or sannyasa either, its an individual thing, its just not an order for everyone. We cannot say everyone must move to the forest, this is not practical, period. Worse, a number of devotees who moved to the woods in West Virginia started the worst illicit sex wife-swapping cult known to mankind, simply living in the woods does not purify the heart. What purifies people is to do their seva to Krishna, and if the best facility for that is in a city, then do the seva. Otherwise many of these devotees who artificially moved to the woods, they ended up way worse than those of us who stayed in the city. To sum then, artificially one may renounce, but better is to stiti-stani and do your seva without creating more artificial renunciates that are making havoc all over ISKCON. ys pd

[tim lee]

Its not practical to move the devotees to the forest, where they will end up homeless and jobless, and unable to continue their preaching. ys pd

[Vidura Das]

You said:

"Not once did anyone tell me that I did the wrong thing to take vanaprastha. Everyone knows, except for a few highly self-motivated devotees such as yourself, that Srila Prabhupada told all of his male disciples in no uncertain terms: "Take vanaprastha at age 50! Compulsory!!!""

I regret that you see me as a self-motivated devotee. (At least you called me a devotee, though.) And I also regret that this is all you can come up with in response to my own lengthy response, substantiated by many Srila Prabhupada quotes.

Your basis is what you have and haven't been told? So your argument is that "rumor has it"? Am I understanding correctly?

First I would like to point out that it is very nice that you have taken vanaprastha. *Applause* Indeed, no one here, either, has told you that you have done the "wrong thing", but rather that renunciation does not depend on any external act:

"A brāhmaṇa may renounce his family and accept sannyāsa. Others also-kṣatriyas and vaiśyas-may also give up their families and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Such renunciation is called karma-tyāga. By such renunciation, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is satisfied. But this renouncing of one's activities to Kṛṣṇa is not uncontaminated and is therefore on the material platform."

CC. Madhya-lila 8.61

The best course is to engage always in the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī. That is the perfection of everything in this life. Similarly, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (4.29.46) it is said by Nārada Muni:

 

yadā yasyānugṛhṇāti

bhagavān ātma-bhāvitaḥ

sa jahāti matiṁ loke

vede ca pariniṣṭhitām

 

"When one actually takes to the loving service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he gives up all duties in the material world, as well as all duties prescribed by the Vedic literature. In this way one is fixed in the service of the Lord."

CC. Madhya-lila 8.63

I beg to submit that the order you claim that had been made by Srila Prabhupada was in fact not of the nature that you make it out to be. In that particular lecture Srila Prabhupada is simply stating a vedic principle. As i'm sure you know, not all vedic principles are applicable to us right now, although mentioned throughout Srila Prabhupada's teachings.

"In this age of Kali, people are so fallen, so degraded, that it is not possible to introduce systematically the whole Vedic principle; it is not possible. That is not possible. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, mercy, that He has given us mercifully, vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti [Cc. Madhya 6.254], just to teach very short-cut method. What is that? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simple. Simple."

Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 1.32-35 -- London, July 25, 1973

"Herein it is stated that the real religious principle is that which is given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Lord Kṛṣṇa states that principle in the Bhagavad-gītā (18.66): sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. “Give up all other duties and surrender unto Me.” That is the real religious principle everyone should follow. Even though one follows the Vedic scriptures, one may not know this transcendental principle, for it is not known to everyone."

A Second Chance: The Story of a Near - Death Experience : SC 21: Confidential Knowledge : Direct Connection with Krsna

Srila Prabhupada started His sentence off with "The vedic principle is..." You would have to now prove that every vedic principle must be applied to us - no matter what. It is wrong of you to say that that was such a direct order as you make it out to be with your adding of exclamation marks and such. It is very misleading of you to take the quote out of context as you have done.

Once again you have totally disregarded all of the quotes from Srila Prabhupada that myself and others have provided. I had even made it easier for you to respond to them by putting them altogether in my last email to you. I hope you know that so long as you ignore these quotes you are not in very good standing as far as your position on the matter is concerned.

I may be whistling in the wind, but please do not let apply that metaphor to Srila Prabhupada's quotes; address them. If I am not understanding them correctly then kindly explain how. Don't just tell me that i'm whistling in the wind - that is not a very strong argument.

ys, vd

---

From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 13:41:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Taking Vanaprastha at Age 50 Is Compulsory
To: vidu...@hotmail.com
CC: srimu...@yahoo.com; yasod...@yahoo.com; dasd...@aol.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; anutt...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Anuttama devi dasi]

My dear Godsiblings,

Why worry about what others are doing?  In my own life I've found it fairly easy to discover if I'm on the right path: when I'm on the right path it is possibly to be conscious of Krsna, occasionally.  When I'm wrong, then it is impossible to feel Krsna's presence.  Most devotees that I've discussed this with have had similar experiences. 

When in doubt, just ask Srila Prabhupada or Krsna.  In my experience, if asked humbly and sincerely (which is of course difficult for me) Krsna will answer.  But again, why worry about others?  We each have our individual challenges and abilities, so we naturally have different expectations from our spiritual master.

I'd guess that right now Krsna and Srila Prabhupada would hope that the devotees will be becoming prepared to be in a position of strength for the coming challenges in the materialistic civilization.  We have a wonderful opportunity to be seen as leaders for the coming upheaval.  After all Srila Prabhupada has given us the simple solution to this complicated situation: simple living, high thinking.

YS,

Anuttama

[mahasrnga dasa]

Hare Krsna Pratyatosh prabhu,   Please accept my humble obeisances.  All glories to Srila Prabhupada.   I’ve come to the conclusion that like a naughty child who doesn’t want to go to the dentist, you will not seek help for your imbalance.  So be it and I sincerely wish you the best with your extraction.   I didn’t go far in the slaughterhouse system of education, which Prabhupada so explicitly explained.  However, I would happily address you as Dr. Frog or as the husband of a Dr. Frog.   There is no “we” in taking me seriously prabhu.  It is only you, which the multitude of devotees are concerned with.  You are the one continuing to commit offenses to devotees over the internet.  Instead of realizing your folly you continue to defend your foolish false ego becoming the ‘scissor’ man paving your way to another birth.   I’m not saying you’re crazy, Pratyatosh prabhu, although I’m sure this might cause another type of debate.  I’m just saying that you should stop committing offenses to devotees, their wife’s or personalities who are trying to follow Prabhupada’s instructions to the best of their abilities and understandings.   The only ‘silencing tactic’ I’m trying to accomplish is for you to discontinue your verbal transgressions against devotees and embarrassing yourself in front of the world.  You are provoking some serious reactions to your devotional creeper.   Just because certain brains do indeed need washing, that doesn’t mean there’s a cult involved.   I hope this finds you in better health and improving your consciousness.   Your servant in service to Srila Prabhpupada. Mahasrnga dasa   P.S.  I know you are a very smart computer man.  Please do a Folio search on ‘offenses’    Mahasrnga Prabhu, what is your qualification for presenting yourself as an armchair psychiatrist? Do you even have a college degree? How can we take you seriously? All that you are indirectly saying is that, "You are crazy." In other words, just another low-class ad hominem attack. This is a typical silencing tactic of a brain-washed cult member.

[charles dowson]

Whoa!  Not a necessary topic...waste of key board time prabhus!!  get on to growing crops, Hari Nam and who's doing it, books and who's getting them out, prasadam recipes etc. Retirement! Varnaprast...now? when the world is going to complete hell!! :) We need all the troops we can get in active duty not contemplating retirement. Varnaprast right now is is a cop out, a lazy persons route to relax during bombardment by maya!!
 
The question is   "Why we are not taking Varnaprast in the 21st century", not, why we are or must.
Damagosh has 10 devotees a week coming to his festivals on Sunday...who of us can claim such opulence? Then add Daria and Damagosh and you have 12 devotees.  Each devotee is worth 100,000 conditioned souls...so Damagosh and Daria Prabhu have ONE MILLION people coming each week to their magnificent temple facility!! Who can match that in the US what to speak of Canada?
 
When we are conditioned to percieve that the situation is useless then we become useless. NO MORE TALK ABOUT VARNA PRAST AND MORE TALK ABOUT HARI NAM PRAST!!!!! :)
 
 Ys  Hasti Gopala Dasa

---

Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:45:22 -0700

Subject: Re: Taking Vanaprastha at Age 50 Is Compulsory

From: anutt...@gmail.com
To: vidu...@hotmail.com
CC: praty...@gmail.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; yasod...@yahoo.com; dasd...@aol.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; ange...@yahoo.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; khad...@wmconnect.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com; gokul...@gmail.com

[Pratyatosa]

What you are saying is, Mahasrnga Prabhu, "You are an offender." In other words, just another low-class ad hominem attack. This is a typical silencing tactic of a brain-washed, uneducated cult member.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Anuttama devi dasi <anutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

My dear Godsiblings,

Why worry about what others are doing?

This is a good question, Mother Anuttama Prabhu.

Here are three answers:

1. How can we, the ritviks, present a united front if some among us are not even following Srila Prabhupad's most basic instructions, such as "diacritics henceforward" and "vanaprastha at age 50?" We simply appear to be a bunch of hypocrites!

2. The successful projects need help, but we can't get any help because our godbrothers and godsisters are wasting their time trying to do the impossible, such as trying to start an alternative to ISKCON. Let's face it, it's not the 1960s/70s anymore. The time is not right for such an endeavor. Let the foolish ISKCONites waste their time maintaining bricks and mortar. We have the Internet! Let's start taking full advantage of the fantastic preaching opportunities that Lord Sri Krishna has given us!

3. If our godbothers and godsisters claim that they don't have time to help with the successful Internet preaching projects such as <http://causelessmercy.com/>, then why not show them how to make time by living in a small apartment in town with everything that they need within easy walking distance? No more need to maintain a house, a lawn, a garden, a motor vehicle, etc. Let's try to follow Srila Prabhupada's example. He never wasted his valuable time, in his old age, maintaining these things! "Until the lady bird is pregnant, there's no need to build a nest!"

Ys, Ptd

[tim lee]

Dear Pratyatosa, I am personally not going to tell any devotees to leave their city house and job, live in the woods, probably become homeless thereby due to no income, and lose or quit their current preaching programs, simply so they can go live in the forest. Simply not practical. ys pd

[tim lee]

Its just for fun, hope ya'll like it. ys pd    http://youtu.be/_I7-OdRezw8

[P Conroy]

SP asked all disciples to be fully krsna conscious. so, he condems everyone who isn't including himself.

There are a vast number of instructions by Srila Prabhupada and scripture that are not followed . the 4 regs are just the beginning. because he follows that one instruction, his ego dictates that he should slam everyone on the head with that one. 

 Its a type of neophyte syndrome. when they follow strictly they may be puffed up or fanatic. takes time to mature into it. 

he follows that rule which most don't so he hits on everyone about it. a self realized soul does not behave like that. only a neophyte .

satyahit das   

On 28 August 2011 21:36, tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Pratyatosa, I am personally not going to tell any devotees to leave their city house and job, live in the woods, probably become homeless thereby due to no income, and lose or quit their current preaching programs, simply so they can go live in the forest. Simply not practical. ys pd

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[Pratyatosa]

What you are saying to me, Satyahit Prabhu, is, "You are a neophyte." In other words, just another low-class ad hominem attack. This is a typical silencing tactic of a brain-washed cult member.

Let's stick to the issues, OK? How about a quote from Srila Prabhupada saying that there might be an exception to the rule of taking vanaprastha at age 50.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Prabhus, PAMHO. AGTSP!

The three main reasons why I'm pushing the "vanaprastha at age 50" issue are as follows:

1. After 12 years (1996-2008) of trying to figure out how best to be a 21st century vanaprastha, I finally figured out what I now consider to be the ideal compromise: Live in a small apartment in a small college town, away from any ISKCON temple, where everything you need is within easy walking distance (no need for a car), including a 24/7 Wal-Mart Super Center. Therefore, I'm trying to share this realization with my godbrothers/sisters, so that they don't have to go through the same period of trial and error that I did.

2. I like being chastised by my godbrothers/sisters because it helps me to be more humble. (Another technique which I use to try to be more humble is to beg food from the local Salvation Army, which I did a few minutes ago, on my way to the library.)

3. I'm trying to get a few godbrothers/sisters free from their entanglements, so that they can help me with the many preaching projects that I have in mind, such as <http://causelessmercy.com/>, a nationwide chain of vegetarian restaurants, 24/7 transcendental 100% Prabhupada TV in many of the ISKCON temples, moving the Bhaktivedanta Archives to one of the local abandoned copper mines, suing the ISKCON leaders for promoting wife beating and then trying to re-write history by claiming that they never did that and that it's 100% the fault of the husbands, etc.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>, <http://causelessmercy.com/>, <http://rtvik.com/>, <http://pratyatosa.com/>, <http://feedacow.com/>, <http://llbest.com/>

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:54 AM, P Conroy <saty...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Kishori Simonson]

Pratyatosa,

 

 Listen whos talking. You are one yourself! You are blathering on and on about taking varnaprastha,which really is nothing more than you glorifing your own "exalted position" because you have(in your mind only because you certainly don't live the scriptural version of Vp.) taken the order of Vp. The really amusing part of this hypocrosy is that you don't even follow Srila Prabhupadas basic instuctions for us neophytes like getting up for mangal arotike and the rest of the morning program. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!! As the old saying goes,"there is nothing a goat will not eat and there is nothing a fool will not say".

 

V.

 

We simply appear to be a bunch of hypocrites!

-----Original Message-----
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: Anuttama devi dasi <anutt...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vidura Das <vidu...@hotmail.com>; Sri Mukunda <srimu...@yahoo.com>; yasoda nandana <yasod...@yahoo.com>; dasdasdas <dasd...@aol.com>; parijata <pari...@btinternet.com>; lakshmi <lak...@webtv.net>; Puranjana Prabhu <ange...@yahoo.com>; info <in...@prabhupadanugas.eu>; kurmanotthechef <kurmano...@live.com>; urdhvaga <urdh...@aol.com>; a.krishnadas <a.kris...@hkm-group.org>; ameyatma <amey...@gmail.com>; bangalore <b...@iskconbangalore.org>; brahmabhuta <brahm...@hotmail.com>; brd <b...@hkm-group.org>; chapalaman <chapa...@gmail.com>; cpd <c...@iskconbangalore.org>; gadaidasa <gada...@yahoo.com>; gaurakishor <gaura...@gmail.com>; gopaldas108 <gopal...@hotmail.com>; hasti gopal <has...@hotmail.com>; iskconbangalore1008 <iskconban...@gmail.com>; istagosthi <istag...@googlegroups.com>; jaya gouranga <jayagou...@sbcglobal.net>; Jivadhara <jiva...@yahoo.com>; kanhaiyadasanudas <kanhaiya...@hotmail.com>; khadigar <khad...@wmconnect.com>; krishnaislife <krishn...@hotmail.com>; madhuhadasa <madhu...@gmail.com>; Madhusudhan <rs.madh...@gmail.com>; mahadhana108 <mahadh...@gmail.com>; mahasrnga_dasa <mahasrn...@yahoo.com>; makevrndavan <makevr...@gmail.com>; mpd <m...@iskconbanglore.org>; nalinikant <nalin...@aol.com>; Nimai <nimai51...@yahoo.com>; nimaipandit <nimai...@yahoo.com>; nityanandaram108 <nityanan...@gmail.com>; prtha_devi_dasi <prtha_d...@hotmail.com>; srimaya54 <srim...@yahoo.com>; stella singh <stellas...@yahoo.com>; suvyakta <suvy...@gmail.com>; ugresa108 <ugre...@gmail.com>; upadesamrta <upade...@googlemail.com>; vadi <prabhu...@hotmail.com>; vakd <va...@hkm-group.org>; july9th_77 <july9...@yahoo.com>; gokuladhama <gokul...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, Aug 28, 2011 8:30 pm
Subject: Re: Taking Vanaprastha at Age 50 Is Compulsory

[mahasrnga dasa]

Hare Krsna Varaha prabhu, PAMHO.  AGTSP. I'm trying to sit on my fingers so I don't reply to Pratyatosh.  He seems to just say things to keep people communicating with him.  I'm sure he's a lonely guy who has isolated himself on a shoestring and just wants attention.  Otherwise how could he continue to say such foolish things and make a fool of himself? His latest ramblings are his glorification of Kirtananda, Dhanudhara and JAS.  Is it a Jewish conditioning that overwhelms the pure logic and intelligence of what Srila Prabhupada has taught us? I really don't see any use in discussing any topic with him.  Whatever comes out of his mouth or from his key board does nothing but agitate and cause offenses to devotees.  Hope this finds you well and look forward to those sweet Mongals upon my return. Mahasrnga dasa

[Pratyatosa]

There you go again, Mahasrnga Prabhu, playing the armchair psychologist with absolutely no formal education on the subject. These are simply more ad hominem attacks. So far, you haven't come up with even one quote by Srila Prabhupada to counter any of my quotes by Srila Prabhupada. Very few members of this forum are dumb enough to fall for your "shoot the messenger" tactics.

What, specifically, have I said about Kirtanananda, Dhanudhara, or Jayadvaita that you disagree with? All that you can think to say is that it must be some sort of Jewish conspiracy, which is something that Srila Prabhupada would never say because it is totally bodily concept.

I've already stated my three main reasons for pushing the "vanaprastha at age 50" issue. (<http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/a061e6f9b621c041>) Why pretend to be able to read my mind? You are simply making yourself look foolish.

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Kishori Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I admit it. I don't go to mangala aratrika. Where is there mangala aratrika being held in the forest? Where does Srila Prabhupada specifically say that vanaprasthas must go to mangala aratrika? I vowed to chant 16 rounds and follow the 4 regs, not to go to mangala aratrika as a vanaprastha. I was in Los Angeles for months when Srila Prabhupada was there, and he never went to mangala aratrika even once!

Simply more "shoot the messenger" tactics.

I tried "living in the forest," but when the word got around town that I was doing that, it was a big embarrassment to my mother and to my younger sister that their son/brother was "homeless."

Also, living in the forest makes bodily maintenance very complicated and time consuming. I've found that what I'm doing now is the ideal compromise. I love it! I never feel the least bit lonely. The secret is to have had a very satisfying grhastha life, such as immediately giving ones wife a son right after getting married. As an added bonus, both of my sons have also done this, and I pray that my 6 grandsons (so far) will also do this when they get married.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa, Moderator/Owner, The Google Prabhupadanuga Group <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>, <http://causelessmercy.com/>, <http://rtvik.com/>, <http://pratyatosa.com/>, <http://feedacow.com/>, <http://llbest.com/>

[Pratyatosa]

Three more of my proposed preaching projects are:

1. A nationwide chain of home health care providers. (It should be fairly easy to run an Internet based home health care service more efficiently than is currently being done. For example, locally they pay the workers $6-7/hour and charge the customers $17/hour!)

2. A multi-billion dollar dot com business which combines some of the best features of YouTube with some of the best features of Wikipedia.

3. Patent one, two or even three of my inventions.

Obviously, the above are grhastha business ideas for the purpose of using the profits in Krishna's service.

Ys, Ptd

[Punya Das]

dear pratyatosh pamho agtsp      on a daily basis the holy name is purifying our universe prabhupada global body on a daily basis giving birth to millions of sound incarnations of radha and krishna these incarnations are real lord caitanya and srila prabhupada mission is to bestow benediction upon all is very real at every step we are all being purified and as we advance we will be tested at every step prabhupada said we have all taken millions of births in this material world as a global movement each and everyone of us is doing what we can moment to moment to  be krishna conscious  i just like to imagine what is krishna consciousness what would a perfect a perfect moment in krishna consciousness so i invite srila prabhupada into that moment because he said if you think of me i am there then i invite all the residents of srila prabhupadas books and visualise  what it will be like to be free from impersonalism and to serve these persons then i look at todays global reality mother earth is being gang raped by the oil companies poison by mosanto 300 billion animals in the slaughter houses system there blood being thrown in her face  my only solace is to have faiyh in lord caitanya and srila prabhupada that there is a happy ending by there mercy unfolding enjoy the fact  and to serve to make it happen you are empowered to do what you have acheived and there are no limits because attachment to the lotus feet of the spiritual master fullfills all desire lets live moment by moment and serve prabhupada to the best of our abilities with folded hands i pray for you to keep thinking on the scale that you are we are all trying to bury kali  Prabhupada said if you become krishna you can recreate Vaikuntha no limits i want you to succeed  and fullfill  everthing that srila prabhupada wants you too please try to listen more to your well wishers we have the tools by srila prabhupadas mercy to make this planet krishna conscious
we have to work together to make things happen respect each other best wishes only punya

[DasD...@aol.com]

Hare Krsna Nrsimha prabhu et all,

Obeisances

All glories to Prabhupada

 

It is so refreshing to hear from somebody who IS Krsna Conscious and not somebody who is envious of those who are !! Thank you Nrsimha for your sagacious words and your association here.

 

I would like to further add that there are 5 things forbidden in Kali yuga-one of which is sannyasa. Prabhupada, knowing the risk, tried it out just to push on this movement,and  I am sure he knew the consequences to himself personally, being our guru. Later he stopped giving sannyasa to his disciples because he saw so many falling down to sinful life. So he told them to just get married and continue their seva from this platform.

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur's advice on this matter was for married couples, if possible, to move to a sacred place and then live out their lives in that way. No degradation that way, and a good way to protect the public from " "marauding "sannyasis. 

 

It is unfortunate that some devotees have to become so hateful of others, and for no good reason. I am still at a loss as to why Pratyatosha launched his attack upon myself, Sri Mukunda and others. I had nothing to do with him for years on end and never communicated with him at all. Then all of a sudden up comes this vomit.

 

So the best and safest thing I feel we all can and should do, is to execute our Krsna Conscious activities

from wherever and whatever way we each choose.We all have a "comfort zone" from which we operate and that is fine.  And we should operate from that level. That is real, honest, and not artificial.

 

 But at the same time, we also should know and recognize, that there may be better ways to live out our lives than in the way we are presently occupied. The better we chant with lessening offenses, the better arrangements Krsna will make for our advancement. Its not that we will stay in our same material position forever. Just like when we all joined this movement, we thought, at that time, we understood what Krsna Consciousness means. Now, and I am sure all will agree, we have quite different understandings of what KC life is, and that new understanding is much different than the one we had some 30-40 years ago !! It has to change, and so will our living arrangements. But, again that is all up to Lord Krsna and Srila Prabhupada and not some ranting madman, who cannot even help himself, what to speak of others.

 

Hare Krsna

Damaghosa das

-------------------------------

 

In a message dated 8/30/2011 10:00:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, gokul...@gmail.com writes:

By the way, vanaprasthas are not required to leave their wives. The real meaning of vanaprastha, as in sannyasa, is to use everything for Krishna seva. The strictest ritualistic definition of vanaprastha, according the ancient Vedic formula, is not possible to follow in this age.

[Srimukunda]

Hare Krishna,

Thank you Maharaj for your excellent analysis and comments.

Ys

Srimukunda dasa

From the mind of Michael Sandoval via iPhone 

On Aug 30, 2011, at 10:00 AM, narasimha stewart <gokul...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hare Krishna, Jai Srila Prabhupada!

Dandavats and pranams.

One of the prabhus in this forum has suggested that Mahasrnga was talking like a brainwashed cult member, although anyone who knows Maha knows he is about as free of a thinker as you can have in the Krishna consciousness movement. This antagonist suggests that Mahasrnga prabhu is under-educated, irrelevant and thus unqualified to offer a Godbrother friendly advice to seek professional help. Mahasrnga offered this advice not in anger but with well-meaning kindness. Those of us who know Mahasrnga know that he is in fact the most expert psychologist and can easily detect the symptoms of those possessed of troubled minds. This is due not to his so-called educational qualifications from mundane universities but due rather to his long-time, selfless dedication to the Krishna consciousness movement. It is absurd to suggest that you need to be a licensed psychologist to understand the symptoms of one who  is mentally troubled. 

It should be noted that Mahasrnga is likely the closest thing to a vanaprastha we have in the Krishna consciousness movement or ISKCON. He lives in a sacred forest in a mud and thatch hut on the bank of a sacred stream in the Sahayadri Mountains of South India and does constant, humble service.  Unlike false renunciates, however, he does sometimes leave there for the sake of raising funds for the Deity worship and preaching in a Krishna conscious community of forest rishis, wherein there are other devotees like himself, who are true examples for aspiring vanaprasthas in this age.

By the way, vanaprasthas are not required to leave their wives. The real meaning of vanaprastha, as in sannyasa, is to use everything for Krishna seva. The strictest ritualistic definition of vanaprastha, according the ancient Vedic formula, is not possible to follow in this age. This is Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion. Therefore He never taught or prescribed vanaprastha according the strict definition found in sastras. Rather he emphasized preaching and dedicated service to the Hare Krishna Society or the Krishna consciousness movement. As a vanaprastha one should no longer concern himself with wife, sons, and grandsons and the various issues and concerns of householder life. Rather he or she should save time for sadhana and preaching.

It is interesting to hear on this forum that vanaprastha is an absolute order yet one need not attend mangala-arati because one could not see Srila Prabhupada attending mangala-arati. This is an indication of external vision, since Srila Prabhupada is always present in mangala-arati. Otherwise what is the point of mangala-arati? Srila Prabhpada is always present on the altar and on the vyasasana.  Maybe this prabhu accuses other devotees of not strictly following Srila Prabhupada's instructions  because he himself is not doing so? Maybe this prabhu is not happy to read our HKS booklet called Srila Prabhupada Siddhanta because he disagrees with some of Srila Prabhupada's instructions cited therein?

Finally, and perhaps most serious, this man claims that wife abuse was prevalent even when Srila Prabhupada was present. I wonder why he brings this up? Even if it were true, so what? What does that mean? He even suggests that Prabhupada may have condoned such abuse. I had a conversation with a self-appointed iskcon guru in 1984, wherein he told me that the problems and abuse in iskcon were also prevalent in “Prabhupada’s time”. He was defending himself and other leaders, whom I was accusing of being off track and negligent. I replied, “So, then, you admit that even in Prabhupada’s presence you and many of your colleagues were incompetent and negligent?”

Srila Prabhupada immediately rectified all deviations and abuse that was brought to his attention, but he did not come to this material world to wipe our butts for us.  He trained and appointed leaders for His mission and expected them to do their duty. His books teach us all how to become Krishna conscious. And He never closed the door on anyone who wanted to come to Him to report deviations and abuse.

When a devotee is insulted and one does not defend him, he may lose his faith in that devotee or even in Krishna consciousness itself. For this reason, I am writing to defend Srila Prabhupada and his sincere followers and will no longer read anything on this forum by the antagonist mentioned above. I have no interest to insult anyone or argue back and forth. I think we all have better things we can be doing to preach Krishna consciousness to the innocent.

As for varnashrama-dharma, the best we can do is to try sincerely to follow the ashram we are in. Any varna and ashram is good if one is Krishna conscious. This is Srila Prabhupada's conclusion. All external  status is useless unless it helps us to develop Krishna consciousness.

It is very odd, to put it politely, that a devotee would fault another devotee on the basis of his age or ashram or varna. It also odd, to say the least, to criticize a publication composed mostly of quotes from Srila Prabhupada simply because there are no diacritics. It is also odd, to say the least, that a disciple would say Srila Prabhpada never attended mangala-arati and therefore it is unnecessary for other  renounced devotees. It also odd to hear someone preach that vanaprastha is absolutely essential by age 50, when such person himself obviously is not following vanaprastha by the Vedic definition. Simply getting kicked out of home by a restraining order is not the real qualfication for vanaprastha.  It offensive to hear this man accuse devotees of being karmis because they are not formally initiated. It also offensive to hear sincere preachers faulted for not getting big results. It also offensive to suggest a sincere devotee has married a karmi of the sake of illicit sex life. This insenuation is both crazy and offensive.

It is also odd to hear a devotee suggest, for no apparent reason,  that all kinds of abuse was prevelant in pre-1978 ISKCON. I do not accept this idea, but even if we accept for argument's sake, so what? What does that mean? It means that many corrupt persons joined and tried to exploit the pure mission Srila Prabhupada created. It means that most devotees are blind followers who have not carefully studied the books.  It is the duty of the disciples to keep the pure mission pure by understanding and teaching the pure siddhanta and trying to show the example of pure sadhana.

Yours in Prabhupada-seva smaranam,

Narasimha das

 

 

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

There you go again, Mahasrnga Prabhu, playing the armchair psychologist with absolutely no formal education on the subject. These are simply more ad hominem attacks. So far, you haven't come up with even one quote by Srila Prabhupa

Ys, Ptd

[narasimha stewart]

Hare Krishna, Jai Srila Prabhupada!

Dandavats and pranams.

One of the prabhus in this forum has suggested that Mahasrnga was talking like a brainwashed cult member, although anyone who knows Maha knows he is about as free of a thinker as you can have in the Krishna consciousness movement. This antagonist suggests that Mahasrnga prabhu is under-educated, irrelevant and thus unqualified to offer a Godbrother friendly advice to seek professional help. Mahasrnga offered this advice not in anger but with well-meaning kindness. Those of us who know Mahasrnga know that he is in fact the most expert psychologist and can easily detect the symptoms of those possessed of troubled minds. This is due not to his so-called educational qualifications from mundane universities but due rather to his long-time, selfless dedication to the Krishna consciousness movement. It is absurd to suggest that you need to be a licensed psychologist to understand the symptoms of one who  is mentally troubled. 

It should be noted that Mahasrnga is likely the closest thing to a vanaprastha we have in the Krishna consciousness movement or ISKCON. He lives in a sacred forest in a mud and thatch hut on the bank of a sacred stream in the Sahayadri Mountains of South India and does constant, humble service.  Unlike false renunciates, however, he does sometimes leave there for the sake of raising funds for the Deity worship and preaching in a Krishna conscious community of forest rishis, wherein there are other devotees like himself, who are true examples for aspiring vanaprasthas in this age.

By the way, vanaprasthas are not required to leave their wives. The real meaning of vanaprastha, as in sannyasa, is to use everything for Krishna seva. The strictest ritualistic definition of vanaprastha, according the ancient Vedic formula, is not possible to follow in this age. This is Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion. Therefore He never taught or prescribed vanaprastha according the strict definition found in sastras. Rather he emphasized preaching and dedicated service to the Hare Krishna Society or the Krishna consciousness movement. As a vanaprastha one should no longer concern himself with wife, sons, and grandsons and the various issues and concerns of householder life. Rather he or she should save time for sadhana and preaching.

It is interesting to hear on this forum that vanaprastha is an absolute order yet one need not attend mangala-arati because one could not see Srila Prabhupada attending mangala-arati. This is an indication of external vision, since Srila Prabhupada is always present in mangala-arati. Otherwise what is the point of mangala-arati? Srila Prabhpada is always present on the altar and on the vyasasana.  Maybe this prabhu accuses other devotees of not strictly following Srila Prabhupada's instructions  because he himself is not doing so? Maybe this prabhu is not happy to read our HKS booklet called Srila Prabhupada Siddhanta because he disagrees with some of Srila Prabhupada's instructions cited therein?

Finally, and perhaps most serious, this man claims that wife abuse was prevalent even when Srila Prabhupada was present. I wonder why he brings this up? Even if it were true, so what? What does that mean? He even suggests that Prabhupada may have condoned such abuse. I had a conversation with a self-appointed iskcon guru in 1984, wherein he told me that the problems and abuse in iskcon were also prevalent in “Prabhupada’s time”. He was defending himself and other leaders, whom I was accusing of being off track and negligent. I replied, “So, then, you admit that even in Prabhupada’s presence you and many of your colleagues were incompetent and negligent?”

Srila Prabhupada immediately rectified all deviations and abuse that was brought to his attention, but he did not come to this material world to wipe our butts for us.  He trained and appointed leaders for His mission and expected them to do their duty. His books teach us all how to become Krishna conscious. And He never closed the door on anyone who wanted to come to Him to report deviations and abuse.

When a devotee is insulted and one does not defend him, he may lose his faith in that devotee or even in Krishna consciousness itself. For this reason, I am writing to defend Srila Prabhupada and his sincere followers and will no longer read anything on this forum by the antagonist mentioned above. I have no interest to insult anyone or argue back and forth. I think we all have better things we can be doing to preach Krishna consciousness to the innocent.

As for varnashrama-dharma, the best we can do is to try sincerely to follow the ashram we are in. Any varna and ashram is good if one is Krishna conscious. This is Srila Prabhupada's conclusion. All external  status is useless unless it helps us to develop Krishna consciousness.

It is very odd, to put it politely, that a devotee would fault another devotee on the basis of his age or ashram or varna. It also odd, to say the least, to criticize a publication composed mostly of quotes from Srila Prabhupada simply because there are no diacritics. It is also odd, to say the least, that a disciple would say Srila Prabhpada never attended mangala-arati and therefore it is unnecessary for other  renounced devotees. It also odd to hear someone preach that vanaprastha is absolutely essential by age 50, when such person himself obviously is not following vanaprastha by the Vedic definition. Simply getting kicked out of home by a restraining order is not the real qualfication for vanaprastha.  It offensive to hear this man accuse devotees of being karmis because they are not formally initiated. It also offensive to hear sincere preachers faulted for not getting big results. It also offensive to suggest a sincere devotee has married a karmi of the sake of illicit sex life. This insenuation is both crazy and offensive.

It is also odd to hear a devotee suggest, for no apparent reason,  that all kinds of abuse was prevelant in pre-1978 ISKCON. I do not accept this idea, but even if we accept for argument's sake, so what? What does that mean? It means that many corrupt persons joined and tried to exploit the pure mission Srila Prabhupada created. It means that most devotees are blind followers who have not carefully studied the books.  It is the duty of the disciples to keep the pure mission pure by understanding and teaching the pure siddhanta and trying to show the example of pure sadhana.

Yours in Prabhupada-seva smaranam,

Narasimha das

 

 

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:

There you go again, Mahasrnga Prabhu, playing the armchair psychologist with absolutely no formal education on the subject. These are simply more ad hominem attacks. So far, you haven't come up with even one quote by Srila Prabhupa

Ys, Ptd

[Pratyatosa]

Dear Puranjana Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Based upon what you and others have stated on this thread, I assume that my Why Rocana and Damaghosa Are Worse than the Average Karmi message is 100% factual. Why do I assume that? I assume that for the following two reasons:

1. No one has come to Rocana Dasa's defense.

2. The only defense that anyone has come up with on behalf of Dhamaghosa Dasa are ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and shoot the messenger (with subjective opinions and false rumors) tactics.

It's a fact that anything we do along the lines of trying to be an ideal 21st century vanaprastha is going to be, at best, a compromise. I'm not claiming that the compromise that I have discovered, through the agency of 12 years of trial and error and through Lord Sri Krishna's divine arrangement, is necessarily the best for everyone, but it works for me, and I am completely satisfied with it. Krishna has been very kind to me, and I am extremely grateful to Him for making such a perfect arrangement for me.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>, <http://causelessmercy.com/>, <http://rtvik.com/>, <http://pratyatosa.com/>, <http://feedacow.com/>, <http://llbest.com/>

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:23 PM, tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear prabhus, Yes, I agree with SriMukunda's, Mahasringha's, Dhamaghosa's and Nrsingha's posts. First of all, we are not able to follow all these Vedic positions especially with the deterioration of our society that was meant to facilitate these positions. True vana-prastha is also one who: Visits the holy lands on pilgrimages; And STILL lives together with one's wife; And "vana" also means to live in a forest -- like vrnda-vana etc. OK so people who are living alone in a small Western citiy, albeit in an college town apartment, are doing none of the above. It seems a little silly to attack others for not being authentic, while not really following any system authentically oneself. Frankly I cannot tell anyone to leave their present dwelling and job, wherever that is, and trooper off to the forest to live out there like a holy saint -- and get arrested for living on public
 forest land by the Sheriff. Its better that we offer people a practical chance to come to our local programs wherever we are, or if the temple is sympathetic, to visit the local temples. Right now it would also make no sense for me to move to another town and rent another apartment somewhere else and then declare that I am a big renounced vana-dweller simply by moving to another apartment. Its all a little silly. My feeling is that Pratyatosa was feeling a little squashed and wilted after his whole situation with Urmila came out in public, and instead of seeing the self-evident issues and problems with that process, he became defensive and began attacking others. Lets face it, living in some USA apartment is not vana-prastha, and Urmila is simply a party hack for the GBC. She is not an exemplar of anything either. So this is not vana-anything, except its sometimes hard to see the forest through the
 trees. At the same time, this is all part of our overall purification, Srila Prabhupada says its good when these boils are bursting and all the puss is running out, that means its getting purified. Pratyatosa has done some good service and so we hope that he can let all this go, weather all this, and move on. We are simply not moving to his town to rent the apartment next door, sorry! ys pd

[tim lee]

Dear Puranjana Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Based upon what you and others have stated on this thread, I assume that my Why Rocana and Damaghosa Are Worse than the Average Karmi message is 100% factual. Why do I assume that? I assume that for the following two reasons:

[PD: Well Rocana is not always in line with what we say, but he is at least getting millions of hits on his site and he exposes a lot of the GBC guru's corruption, book changes and so on, so he is doing more good than harm. The GBC hates his site, I know this for a fact, that means its helpful to us. So he is exposing a lot of their bogus history and its apparently the no.1 Krishna site in terms of hits. No karmis are exposing the GBC gurus the way Rocana is, so I do not agree he is worse than the karmis, he also says Srila Prabhupada is the sampradaya acharya which the exact term we used in 1984 so he is gradually copying our idea. Good progress.

As for his wife, she seems like a nice soul, and she puts hours a day into making that site, he could not do that site at all without her, she is a graphic designer and HTML expert, so she basically does the whole site, and her expose work is better than most devotees could ever do. Almost no one else is exposing the GBC's corrupt guru process like Rocana's wife does, plain and simple.

Dhamaghosa has done a lot of good preaching himself and some of the people who go to his program write me favorably so he is basically on board with all the issues, he is one of our better allies. He also does a nice program on a regular basis, and he lives off the land more than you or any of us are doing, he is more vana-prastha than all of us put together, he actually grows things himself. I do have some new rose plants in the front yard that I am watering, thats my whole farming life right there.]

1. No one has come to Rocana Dasa's defense.
2. The only defense that anyone has come up with on behalf of Dhamaghosa Dasa are ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and shoot the messenger (with subjective opinions and false rumors) tactics.

It's a fact that anything we do along the lines of trying to be an ideal 21st century vanaprastha is going to be, at best, a compromise. I'm not claiming that the compromise that I have discovered, through the agency of 12 years of trial and error and through Lord Sri Krishna's divine arrangement, is necessarily the best for everyone, but it works for me, and I am completely satisfied with it. Krishna has been very kind to me, and I am extremely grateful to Him for making such a perfect arrangement for me.

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa <http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi>, <http://causelessmercy.com/>, <http://rtvik.com/>, <http://pratyatosa.com/>, <http://feedacow.com/>, <http://llbest.com/>

[PADA: OK so living in an apartment works for you, but why tell everyone else to do the same then? Who cares where people live? And having your wife live in corrupt bogus GBC guru ISKCON and "preach" exactly as the GBC preaches, that is not preaching in my opinion. Preaching what? Preaching that gurus are engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children is what the GBC preaches, and Urmila is compromised with them. I know a person who lived near Bir Krishna and he told me she is their maid-servant. This is not vana-prastha either of course. From my perspective, cooperating with people who are saying gurus engage in illicit sex with men, women and children, that is what is worse than the karmis, the karmis would never dream of saying the Lord's guru successors are a bunch of debauchees like Urmila's team does all day and night. "Preaching in front of the sannyasas," no, these people are claiming to be the next acharya messiahs for the jagata. And she
is supporting their bogus claims and bogus siddhanta. It does not matter where she lives, she is compromised with the bogus idea that gurus are debauchees, gurusuh narah matih -- narakah sah, its forbidden to say gurus are falling like an ordinary man. ys pd]

[Pratyatosa]

Planting gardens and maintaining houses/motor vehicles/temples/preaching centers is grhastha business, not vanaprastha business.

My wife has not lived in North Carolina for about 5 years. Like me, she has been in a sort of trial and error mode as far as how to be a 21st century vanaprastha. Lord Sri Krishna has been very kind to her also. She finally has a home base again, and she has been there since March of this year. Her home base is in Hilo, Hawaii, away from any ISKCON center. She has built a small apartment as an add-on to our oldest son's house. Our oldest son is much more intelligent and is a much better contract computer programmer than his father ever was. She is in good hands! :-)

Like I said to Bhakta Mark Prabhu, how do you propose that my wife dovetail her God-given talent/propensity to give Sunday feast lectures/Bhagavatam classes to hundreds of guests/devotees if she is not allowed to do it at ISKCON centers?

You tend to speak in generalities, Puranjana Prabhu, but I challenge you to find even one thing that my wife has said which is not 100% bona fide.

It's my understanding that the karmis are serving Krishna 100% under the stringent laws of material nature known as mahamaya. They are slaves to their senses and are constantly being frustrated.

By point of contrast, the pure devotee of the Lord is operating 100% under Krishna's internal potency known as yogamaya, and he is completely free to serve Krishna as he desires out of pure love and devotion.

We are some combination of the two, but the more that we can serve Krishna under the influence of yogamaya, the better. One who is disobeying Srila Prabhupada's oft repeated order to take vanaprastha (mandatory retirement) at age 50, and especially one who is breaking his initiation vows, is definitely sliding toward the mahamaya side of the spectrum.

Ys, Ptd

[Prtha devi dasi]

I've been trying to get off this list for 11, maybe 12 years. Now I see 2 others ask to be taken off, so I want to jump in on that mood, and ask to please oh please, remove me from this list!

Now if someone were to create a YAHOO [and not google] egroup, I might consider being on such a list, because with yahoo the recipient has more control over what they read or don't read, and other things.

But I've suggested that in the past and all that happened was a google group was created, I was forced to be on it, finally got off but it wasn't easy since I didn't know the password [due to not signing up!]. We get all kinds on this group, some very sweet, sincere, and some who think they have the right to force ya into something. Therefore on this manual elist, PLEASE OH Please, before hitting that reply button, take a moment to remove my name.

Thank you.

YS,
Priitaa dd

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From: has...@hotmail.com
To: praty...@gmail.com; ange...@yahoo.com
CC: chakra...@gmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; edi...@dandavats.com; ne...@vnn.org; gokul...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; tatt...@yahoo.com; gaur...@aol.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com; vaiku...@yahoo.com; vikram...@gmail.com; rathay...@gmail.com; tu...@planet1.info; hanto...@hotmail.com; dasd...@aol.com; ange...@yahoo.com.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; vidu...@hotmail.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Pratya
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 09:55:08 -0300

Please take me off this list.
 
Hasti Gopala Dasa
 

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From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:45:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Pratya
To: ange...@yahoo.com
CC: s...@harekrsna.com; chakra...@gmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; edi...@dandavats.com; ne...@vnn.org; gokul...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; tatt...@yahoo.com; gaur...@aol.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com; vaiku...@yahoo.com; vikram...@gmail.com; rathay...@gmail.com; tu...@planet1.info; hanto...@hotmail.com; DasD...@aol.com; ange...@yahoo.com.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; vidu...@hotmail.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com

[Vidura Das]

Unless you can produce a statement from Srila Prabhupada that isn't in regards to or related to a general vedic principle you cannot just assume that it was meant to be applied to Srila Prabhupada's disciples. With that logic, then all vedic principles that are stated in His books must be applied today. Please provide a statement regarding vanaprastha or sannyass that at least has key words like "my disciples" or "members of ISKCON must...", etc. 

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From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:45:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Pratya
To: ange...@yahoo.com
CC: s...@harekrsna.com; chakra...@gmail.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; edi...@dandavats.com; ne...@vnn.org; gokul...@gmail.com; mahasrn...@yahoo.com; tatt...@yahoo.com; gaur...@aol.com; nityanan...@gmail.com; yasod...@yahoo.com; vaiku...@yahoo.com; vikram...@gmail.com; rathay...@gmail.com; tu...@planet1.info; hanto...@hotmail.com; DasD...@aol.com; ange...@yahoo.com.com; istag...@googlegroups.com; vidu...@hotmail.com; srimu...@yahoo.com; pari...@btinternet.com; lak...@webtv.net; kurmano...@live.com; urdh...@aol.com; a.kris...@hkm-group.org; amey...@gmail.com; b...@iskconbangalore.org; brahm...@hotmail.com; b...@hkm-group.org; chapa...@gmail.com; c...@iskconbangalore.org; gada...@yahoo.com; gaura...@gmail.com; gopal...@hotmail.com; has...@hotmail.com; iskconban...@gmail.com; jayagou...@sbcglobal.net; jiva...@yahoo.com; kanhaiya...@hotmail.com; krishn...@hotmail.com; madhu...@gmail.com; rs.madh...@gmail.com; mahadh...@gmail.com; makevr...@gmail.com; m...@iskconbanglore.org; nalin...@aol.com; nimai51...@yahoo.com; nimai...@yahoo.com; prtha_d...@hotmail.com; srim...@yahoo.com; stellas...@yahoo.com; suvy...@gmail.com; ugre...@gmail.com; upade...@googlemail.com; prabhu...@hotmail.com; va...@hkm-group.org; july9...@yahoo.com