Fw: Madhudvisa Lies

[Joseph Langevin]

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: charles dowson <has...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 11:12 PM
Subject: Madhudvisa Lies

 
 

 "http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-11/editorials7534.htm

 
 
Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu.
 
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
 
You said:
 
"However, the real point I was making was, in spite of what the ritviks say, Srila Prabhupada does in fact want his disciples to become qualified diksa gurus and go on to initiate disciples, etc. And the ritviks are lying when they say he does not want this."
 
First, you are telling a big lie here about me, you did not name me but you included me in this. There are many Prabhupadanugas aka Ritviks who have never said that Srila Prabhupada said there should be no more gurus. Please in the future name those who stated that and the source.
 
 

"So as I said we have two groups here and they are both mixing lies with the truth to push forward their own agendas."

 

Now you are saying that there are agendas in regards to the Prabhupadanugas, this is a modern conspiratorial term, as in hidden agendas, and you do not inform the readers as to what you think that those agendas are. You lump us in with the most despicable ISKCON as having an agenda like ours what ever that is. What would be your agenda and who would you think would make a good qualified guru leader these days?

 

 

"For the practical preaching work of Krishna consciousness guru is necessary. The real question is the qualification of the gurus. Because ISKCON has presented so many unqualified gurus who have caused so much grief and suffering for the unfortunate disciples so many have become disgusted at the very idea of guru. Just thinking of "guru" brings pain to the hearts of the victims of these bogus gurus. So it is understandable that the ritviks preach "Prabhupada says there should be no more gurus..." But actually Srila Prabhupada does not say this... It is a lie, but I guess an understandable lie."

 

Here again you lie saying that all of the Ritivks tell this lie but belittle us by implying that since we do not have any real philosophical or spiritual knowledge from Srila Prabhupada "our leader" then it is understandable that we would make up this lie.

 

 

"In reality the guru is required. Guru is a teacher, a leader, and nothing can be organized, nothing can go forward without a qualified leader. So without the leader, without the guru, there can be no preaching, nothing can go forward. We can sit down and read Srila Prabhupada's books by ourselves and become Krishna conscious. But if we want to follow Prabhupada's instructions and preach then there is a limit to how much one can do by himself. So if there is to be a group then there has to be a leader and the people in the group have to accept the authority of that leader. Otherwise it can not be managed. And no matter what you want to call that person, he is the guru, he is the teacher."

 

Where are you living these days? Do you seriously think that you know everything that is going on in the world as a result of Srila Prabhupada's presence, past, present and future? There are many so called Ritvik leaders doing service all over the world, not just in Bangalore . Bangalore is recognized all over the world because there are Ritvik leaders out there who are teaching what Srila Prabhupada is giving so your statement that... "So without the leader, without the guru, there can be no preaching, nothing can go forward" is not based on any evidence at all. Now you have burdened yourself to prove that the Ritviks are leaderless and guruless, that no preaching  and no progress is being made. This I find amazing since you have been distributing Srila Prabhupada's original books for so many years and yet because you do not "see" any so called guru leader then there is nothing of Lord Caitanya's movement going on. Looks like you are serving too hard, better re read a little.

 

"Many ritviks are just as hostile to the concept of a leader as they are to the concept of a guru. They do not want to surrender to anyone. They do not want to accept any authority. Except Prabhupada..."

 

We are not hostile to the concept of a leader or the concept of a guru, we want to make sure that the rest of the world gets a real bona fide leader and a real bona fide guru that is what our action is all about. We already have a guru and a leader, everything we need to know from Srila Prabhupada is outlined in his books. Everyday he is teaching us, so everyday he is there for consultation. Living. Why would anyone want to take the time to try and surrender to a conditioned soul at this time in history when everyone has access to the Mahabhagavat Pure Devotee Srila Prabhupada and Diksa initiation from him?

 

 

"Although the ritviks have this aversion to leaders and gurus it is Srila Prabhupada's mission to create gurus, to create leaders, therefore the ritvik preaching that Prabhupada does not want his disciples to become gurus is a great offense and a great misrepresentation of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada."

 

Another lie, lumping all the Ritviks together and repeating the same thing as the above previous notion. The notion that anyone of us Ritviks is interfering in Srila Prabhupada's mission to create gurus is complete nonsense. Do you seriously think that if we felt that way we would be able to interfere in Srila Prabhupada's ongoing mission? We have no aversion to any of Srila Prabhupadas teachings or ideals, that is a lie, not provable and is actually a great offence itself against Srila Prabhupada because we are his followers and disciples.

 

 

"Without the leader and without the surrender to the leader nothing can be achieved in the practical field."

 

We are not leaderless, ladies and gentlemen the Prabhupadanugas are not leaderless and are very surrendered to Srila Prabhupada, everything we do for Srila Prabhupada is practical because we are strict followers. 

 

 

"So this process of guru and disciples is an eternal process and it can not be stopped and nothing can be managed in the practical sense without leaders who in effect are living gurus. It sounds like a terrible thing to say from the point of view of the ritviks. But it is the reality. If we want to serve Srila Prabhupada by spreading the Krishna consciousness movement all over the world then like he says we need so many qualified gurus. And they have to have disciples who accept them as the authority... Otherwise nothing can be managed and there can be no preaching."

 

Awe yes, here Madhudvisa Prabhu says that one needs a living guru but up to this point he does not say which kind of a guru but that it must be a "living guru" so the readers are left to guess what kind of guru he is talking about. Again we have many gurus already serving all over the world spreading Krsna Consciousness in ways unknown to Madhudvisa Prabhu, their students are becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada. The above statement sounds to me like the same process instituted by the infamous ISKCON, they have more gurus every year and they say they are qualified via Srila Prabhupada's standards and sastric standards, they have disciples who accept them as authorities, they manage and they preach the way they see fit. So it sounds to me that Madhudvisa Prabhu supports the same process instituted by ISKCON...who he says here tells regular lies.

 

 

"I know the ritviks will hate me for this but they can not do anything because they have no leader and will not accept anyone as their leader [except Prabhupada but they disagree about what Prabhupada says...]. If they are not arguing with ISKCON they are arguing among themselves. There is no respect, there is no trust, there is no cooperation. Nothing can be done. There is no future in this..."

 

Just because we "ritviks" have no so called living guru leader that fits the unknown dynamic by Madhudvisa Prabhu, does not mean that we "ritivks" deserve his white wash here folks. We don't argue for the sake of arguing we argue to learn, that we are arguing with ISKCON is not true anymore these days because ISKCON has been defeated by we, the Prabhupadanuagas time and again, they need to be confronted or would Madhudvisa Prabhu feel better if we just let ISKCON off the hook for their on going misleading philosophy? Where is the respect, the trust and the co-operation in ISKCON? It is in the bank! Madhudvisa Prabhu says that there is no future in confronting ISKCON or working things out with ourselves and he likes to point out how our discussions and arguments can get quite hot...sure they can but when was the last time that there was any freedom of thought in ISKCON so that everyone and anyone could air their dirty laundry? We have freedom of expression, freedom of thought, freedom of movement and especially freedom of association.

 

 

"ISKCON's crime in this regard is presenting so many completely unqualified persons as guru. So many bogus rascals cheating the disciples in so many ways has really made the whole guru concept disgusting for so many people... But the ritvik's answer "No more Gurus!" is also wrong."

 

Again, another lie here, we don't ALL say this. You just pointed out that the present guru system is completely faulty

dangerous and wrong yet you said above that..."If we want to serve Srila Prabhupada by spreading the Krishna consciousness movement all over the world then like he says we need so many qualified gurus." So who is going to be the one who will "qualify the new gurus?"  YOU! Or Srila Prabhupada? Srila Prabhupada of course, so therefore we must have Srila Prabhupada as our leader so that he can show us who is qualified so that when a Mahabhagavat Pure devotee shines we will know that he may be recommended to others. Only a real living leader can do that and there is no other real living leader other than Srila Prabhupada. It is not wrong to say "no more gurus" it is wrong to say "yes more gurus" if your authority is not Srila Prabhupada, again, if your authority is Srila Prabhupada then he is your real living guru and the present guru of anyone who wants him.

 

 

 

"By the spell of illusion one tries to be happy by serving his personal sense gratification in different forms which will never make him happy. Instead of satisfying his own personal material senses, he has to satisfy the senses of the Lord. That is the highest perfection of life. The Lord wants this and He demands it. One has to understand this central point of Bhagavad-gita. Our Krishna Consciousness Movement is teaching the whole world this central point, and because we are not polluting the theme of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, anyone seriously interested in deriving benefit by studying the Bhagavad-gita must take help from our Krishna Consciousness Movement for practical understanding of Bhagavad-gita under the direct guidance of the Lord. We hope, therefore, that people will derive the greatest benefit by studying Bhagavad-gita As It Is as we have presented it here, and if even one man becomes a pure devotee of the Lord we shall consider our attempt a success."

 

"So that one man [or hopefully many] who become pure devotees of the Lord by studying Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is and his other books and putting his teachings into practice in their lives and by their surrender to Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, they will be the qualified gurus who will be empowered to push on Srila Prabhupada's movement."

 

Correct, so how can you assume that pure devotees are not present and serving because you have not encountered one? And how can you say that they are not empowered and pushing on Srila Prabhupad's movement? Have you been all over the world to all the Ritivik places of preaching and contacted all those who are now serving Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

"Of course in one sense anyone can be a guru but unless he is a pure devotee of Krishna he will not have the potency to elevate his disciples to the platform of pure devotional service so from the disciples point of view he is useless. He can not deliver Krishna to them. So what is the point of accepting him as guru? It is useless and will end in disaster for both the disciples and the guru as we have seen time and time again. Therefore one must accept an uttama-adikari, a pure unalloyed devotee of Krishna as his spiritual master."

 

Correct again! Srila Prabhupada left instructions on how one may accept him as their spiritual master and that is going on in many places in many ways around the world. So how can you say that... "In reality the guru is required. Guru is a teacher, a leader, and nothing can be organized, nothing can go forward without a qualified leader. So without the leader, without the guru, there can be no preaching, nothing can go forward." Srila Prabhupada is leading, teaching, organizing, preaching and moving things forward. Waiting for guru is nonsense when the best one is here now and forever. Better to stop this ongoing guru talk and talk about service to Srila Prabhupada and how to become a first class disciple.

 

 

"I think that sometimes people have misunderstood that I am a 'ritvik'. That has never been true. I have always protested these lies of the ritviks that Srila Prabhupada never intended his disciples to go on to become qualified diksa gurus, that Srila Prabhupada did not want any more gurus for the next 10,000 years, that all the quotes in Srila Prabhupada's teachings regarding his disciples going on to become qualified gurus only refer to siksha guru, never diksa guru. These things are complete lies and I have always protested them."

 

Now you are going a little too far here claiming now that we Ritviks talk only lies. That is a lie! Again, you are not specifying who has said what, this is an unfair blanket attack on Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers from all over the world.

 

 

So the "ritviks" have really done a great disservice to Srila Prabhupada by propagating these lies. Still, in spite of the ritviks and in spite of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada continues to live on in his transcendental books and audio and video recordings and any sincere soul can take advantage of Srila Prabhupada's personal association in this way and surrender to Srila Prabhupada and surrender to Krishna and Srila Prabhupada will initiate him. This will go on and no one can stop it!!!

 

Again, another lie by Madhudvisa Prabhu that there are many lies coming from all the Ritviks, Bangalore and Madhu Pundit included. Here is the lowest point of his article..."Still, in spite of the ritviks and in spite of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada continues to live on..."  In spite of us and our lies in regards to our spiritual master Srila Prabhupada's teachings Srila Prabhupada survives as a direct result of the sales from KRSNASTORE under Madhudvisa Prabhu's management and leadership. Again, as disciples of Srila Prabhupada we are indirectly labeled as useless threats against Srila Prabhupada and his mission in the same category as the infamous ISKCON. 

 

 

So Madhudvisa Prabhu if you ever decide to take on the task of becoming a guru ( whatever kind that is ) or if you think that someone qualifies ( whatever kind that is ) then be prepared to be confronted by us Prabhupadanugas Ritvik Srila Prabhupada Disciples to make sure that the world does not get cheated, that's a promise not a lie.

 

Ys  Hasti Gopala Dasa

 
 

[John Hanton]

Nice response Hasti Gopal Prabhu,

Exactly like I'm sure most of us were thinking after reading his nonsense.
All he can do is make up lies so he can tell more lies to try and defeat his own lies.
This is one poor lost soul.
I just can't figure out who takes the top prize for being the best liar, the best speaker of nonsense, the best so called philosopher with absolutely no position and no philosophy, the best at contradicting himself even in the same e-mail, the most envious of the Prabhupadanugas and the most obvious guru wannabe.
It's a toss up between him and Rocan for that prize.

ys
Jitarati das

---

Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 23:47:41 -0700
From: yasod...@yahoo.com
Subject: Fw: Madhudvisa Lies
To: istag...@googlegroups.com; in...@prabhupadanugas.eu; ange...@yahoo.com

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: charles dowson <has...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 11:12 PM
Subject: Madhudvisa Lies

 
 

 "http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-11/editorials7534.htm

 
 
Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu.
 

Please accept my humble obeisance嚙踝蕭s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

[Joseph Langevin]

Srila Prabhupada:  That is the way of falsehood. If once you speak something false, then to protect that falsehood you have to take to so many other falsehoods. This is the way of falsehood.

 

Srila Prabhupada    Conversations : 1975 Conversations : June, 1975 : Morning Walk -- June 2, 1975, Honolulu

By pride, either artificial or real, the resultant action of austerity is spoiled; by too much affection for female association, cleanliness is spoiled; by too much addiction to intoxication, mercy is spoiled; and by too much lying propaganda, truthfulness is spoiled. The revival of bhāgavata-dharma can save human civilization from falling prey to evils of all description

Books : Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 1:"Creation" : SB 1.17: Punishment and Reward of Kali : SB 1.17.25

---

Nice response Hasti Gopal Prabhu,

Exactly like I'm sure most of us were thinking after reading his nonsense.
All he can do is make up lies so he can tell more lies to try and defeat his own lies.
This is one poor lost soul.
I just can't figure out who takes the top prize for being the best liar, the best speaker of nonsense, the best so called philosopher with absolutely no position and no philosophy, the best at contradicting himself even in the same e-mail, the most envious of the Prabhupadanugas and the most obvious guru wannabe.
It's a toss up between him and Rocan for that prize.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: charles dowson <has...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 11:12 PM
Subject: Madhudvisa Lies

 
 

 "http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-11/editorials7534.htm

 
 
Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu.
 

Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

[Pratyatosa]

Here is a forum thread wherein I am beginning to suspect that Madhudvisa Prabhu is a pathological liar:

http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/browse_thread/thread/2e6d2e5b9e5fca8f/f8908288b4e4e15e

Also relevant:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: BA Refuses to Release "Rascal Editors" Conversation
To: Madhudvisa dasa <madhu...@gmail.com>
Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com, "Eddy Gaasbeek (Ekanatha dasa)" <eka...@gmail.com>, David Shapiro <nrsimh...@gmail.com>


Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu, you don't know the difference between "early 90s" and "1999?" That's quite a stretch, wouldn't you say?

I was one of the first ones to receive the RA CD-ROMs that you were distributing. Since 2 of the files are dated October, 1999, it couldn't possibly have been any earlier than that. And that's exactly the way I remember it. I was living in one of Atreya Rsi's cabins in Beckley, WV at the time. I had good, fast, free Internet access because good old, ex-GBC, ex-guru, alcohol drinking, meat-eating Atreya owned the ISP company!

I was probably the first one to figure out how to convert the RAs into MP3s. I used a cracked, older version of StreamBox Ripper. (They got sued by Real Audio, so the newer versions didn't include Real Audio conversion.) It only took a few hours, not 2 months! Lots of devotees, at the time, asked me how to convert the RAs into MP3s. Nobody wanted RAs. Everybody wanted MP3s. It was the time of WinAmp and Napster. MP3s were all the rage! But you led a sheltered life, and had no idea what was going on in the real world! Did you even know, at the time, what the Internet was?

You are avoiding the issue, Prabhu. The issue is that <http://prabhupadabooks.com/gallery/> is just another one of your misguided boon-dongles. The reason that we can't work together is because you always think that you know everything, and you make up the most ridiculous stories just to try to avoid, at all cost, admitting that you've made a mistake. I can understand the way you were thinking in 1999. "RA is for speech and MP3 is for music." It was a common misconception at the time. So why not simply admit that you were also under that misconception? But instead, you make up a completely ridiculous story about how it takes longer to convert WAV files to MP3s than to convert them to RAs. It just ain't so. What must I do to convince you that it's all your own concocted dream-world phantasmagoria?

My oldest son, Murari, is the one who first came up with Tamal and 15 other Sanskrit diacritic fonts during the DOS days of the early 90s. He also came up with a Devanagari font. The Archives just basically copied what he'd done without ever giving him any credit, let alone any money. They sold the VedaBase for $600 a copy, and never gave him a penny for all of his hard, pioneering work. Why didn't you ask him where to get Unicode fonts? Or, do a Google search such as:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1568&bih=706&q=sanskrit+diacritics

For years, I was #1, but now I'm just #2 and #3. My son, Murari, who used to be #4 has dropped down to #6.

I asked you how you tell the difference between a search bot accessing your website and a person, but you simply ignored my question. In other words, you seem to have a secrecy policy just like the Archives. And this was when we were supposedly buddy-buddy, working on the pictures project together.

More than a year ago, I ordered the "Hare Krishna in the Movies" DVD from you. Trouble is, it wasn't a new version like you'd advertised. It was the same old version that hadn't been updated since the 80s. When I complained, you said that the new version didn't work, and that you would send me a fixed new version free of change as soon as it became available. I'm still waiting!

Therefore, how can I take anything you say seriously?

Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:44 AM, Madhudvisa dasa <madhu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Prabhu I am tired of this complaining. Please don't waste any more of my time with this nonsense. We are supposed to be on the same team Prabhu, not trying to attack each other like this.

It could be 1999 for the real audio release but I think it is before then. I know I was in New York City distributing books in 2000 and it seems to me that the Real Audio project was completed quite some time before then. Because you have a CD with August of 1999 as the file creation date does not mean that is when I first created the files Prabhu. I am not sure Prabhu. I don't remember the date for sure.

But you really don't seem to realize that this was a revolutionary project to put the whole collection of Prabhuapda audio on CDs and distribute them to the devotees for very little. Those CDs contain the audio from over 1000 cassette tapes which were selling at that time for about $80 for sixteen tapes. Which meant before this Prabhu only a few had access to the complete collection of the Prabhuapda audio. And this concept really created a revolution in hearing from Prabhuapda all over ISKCON. So it is all good really but you see it as all bad...

I did the best thing I could at the time and consulted with all the devotees I could at the time and I did not know you at the time. Prabhu stop complaining.

And as far as PrabhupadaBooks.com it is a very successful site, so many devotees write with such praise and say how much it is helping them in their devotional service and how they use it every day. And it is just a half-finished prototype. I spent only about three months working on it and will go back to working on it in a month hopefully and it will develop into something much better than is currently there.

I store the information in the database the way I store it in the database for very good reasons. You may not know it is not very easy to handle multi-byte utf-8 data in php. The system I am using is very practical. I can not understand Prabhu why you have to find fault with everything?

If you want to find fault with anything there are plenty of faults everywhere. This is the material world. We should be looking for that tiny spark of Krishna consciousness and fanning that. It would be far better if you could try and find something which has some slight hint of service to Srila Prabhupada and encouraging me to push on with that rather than trying to criticize everything I have ever done, everything the archives has ever done and everything Nrsimhananda has ever done...

Please do not send me any more of these emails Prabhu and unsubscribe me from whatever is sending me these emails.

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!

Your servant

Madhudvisa dasa


www.KrishnaStore.com

[Jai Simman R. Rangasamy]

Hare Krishna. He seems too obsessed with diksha officialdom in being a guru. Is there any bar for a ritvik or an empowered acharya to abide by the ritvik system and get his followers to do the same? Anyone will die if he doesn't? These folks make it sound like that. Not all empowered personalities need initiate. How many shaktyavesha avatars we have. Did all of them initiate? One simply has to execute the explicit instructions of the spiritual master in carrying on his movement, not pick various strands of guru tattva from here and there, mentioned in a different context, and "force it down the throat" of the Acharya's explicit modus operandi instructions for his movement. They seem obsessed with the cosmetic structural tradition as if it's always been the same when it's been otherwise. In doing this, they totally lose sight of the essential tradition that in preserving the integrity of the position of guru as given by sadhu and shastra variously applies the operative mode suitable to time, place and circumstance. Just plain "mutt mentality" instead of siddhanta consciousness and passing off the former as the latter! das jai --- On Sun, 7/24/11, Joseph Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Joseph Langevin <yasod...@yahoo.com> Subject: Fw: Madhudvisa Lies