[Prabhupadanuga] How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
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Pratyatosa
Apr 30, 2010, 11:54:54 AM4/30/10
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Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
I found the following on http://krishna.org/iskcon-accepts-one-ritvik-temple-and-irm-disintegrates/:
In the meantime the devotees in Bangalore are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada personally. When the Temple President considers a devotee to be ready for initiation he writes a letter recommending the devotee to Srila Prabhupada. Then the devotee goes before Srila Prabhupada and prays: “Dear Srila Prabhupada currently your ritvik representatives are not doing their service so I am asking you to please accept me as your disciple and inspire me to select a spiritual name.” So in this way the ISKCON Bangalore devotees are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada.
... but the article is 9 years old. Is this still the way that they do it?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (http://causelessmercy.com/ http://rtvik.com/ http://pratyatosa.com/ http://feedacow.com/ http://llbest.com/)
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I found the following on http://krishna.org/iskcon-accepts-one-ritvik-temple-and-irm-disintegrates/:
In the meantime the devotees in Bangalore are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada personally. When the Temple President considers a devotee to be ready for initiation he writes a letter recommending the devotee to Srila Prabhupada. Then the devotee goes before Srila Prabhupada and prays: “Dear Srila Prabhupada currently your ritvik representatives are not doing their service so I am asking you to please accept me as your disciple and inspire me to select a spiritual name.” So in this way the ISKCON Bangalore devotees are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada.
... but the article is 9 years old. Is this still the way that they do it?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (http://causelessmercy.com/ http://rtvik.com/ http://pratyatosa.com/ http://feedacow.com/ http://llbest.com/)
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Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 12:29:21 PM4/30/10
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Yes! I'm very interested to know this. And who is the currant rep and why this person? I have no particular challenge, just curiosity.
RCB
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 11:54:54 AM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
Yahoo
Apr 30, 2010, 12:52:15 PM4/30/10
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nonsensical invention. I doubt this is factual. There is no sanction from HDG for such a farcical Arrangement. This must be false propaganda to slight them.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:54:54 -0400
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
Greg Jay
Apr 30, 2010, 12:53:54 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Interesting system but not the one authorized by Srila Prabhupada on July 9th, 1977.
GKD
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 1:23:41 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
The temple president of Bangalore Temple, as well as a number of other
TP's Temples in their region of the world, have cooperated to form
their own GBC. These TP's consider themselves members of temples
following the rules of Srila Prabhupada. They consider their temples
to be ACTUAL loyal Iskcon temples.
They went ahead and did what they had to do. They documented the
entire process they went through. These TP's gathered in Bangalore
with senior men from each temple community. They scrutinized Srila
Prabhupada's instructions for days and discussed how to implement
them. They decided to first hold local elections at each temple
involved to be sure the Temple Presidents had support of their local
congregations to check against any power grabs. All TP's were re-
elected. They then nominated GBC members, held elections, and that
was that. All was videotaped for posterity.
They will formally elect Ritvik representatives next. Any initiations
the TP's of these temples have authorized up til now were considered
ritvik initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and the new disciples
first and foremost are Diksa and Siksa disciples of Srila Prabhupada,
and Siksa disciples of the Local devotees who they take shelter of.
They don't care what anyone else thinks about it. As far as they are
concerned they are just going about their Guru's business.
As far as I can see, they did what the rest of the Nuga's couldn't.
Pretty sad commentary on the North American Prabhupadanuga
contingent. But at least we haven't transgressed the way Its-a-con
leaders have. We still have our conscience intact, our dignity and
integrity. The rest will follow.
On Apr 30, 12:29 pm, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes! I'm very interested to know this. And who is the currant rep and why this person? I have no particular challenge, just curiosity.
>
> RCB
>
> ________________________________
> From: Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com>
TP's Temples in their region of the world, have cooperated to form
their own GBC. These TP's consider themselves members of temples
following the rules of Srila Prabhupada. They consider their temples
to be ACTUAL loyal Iskcon temples.
They went ahead and did what they had to do. They documented the
entire process they went through. These TP's gathered in Bangalore
with senior men from each temple community. They scrutinized Srila
Prabhupada's instructions for days and discussed how to implement
them. They decided to first hold local elections at each temple
involved to be sure the Temple Presidents had support of their local
congregations to check against any power grabs. All TP's were re-
elected. They then nominated GBC members, held elections, and that
was that. All was videotaped for posterity.
They will formally elect Ritvik representatives next. Any initiations
the TP's of these temples have authorized up til now were considered
ritvik initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and the new disciples
first and foremost are Diksa and Siksa disciples of Srila Prabhupada,
and Siksa disciples of the Local devotees who they take shelter of.
They don't care what anyone else thinks about it. As far as they are
concerned they are just going about their Guru's business.
As far as I can see, they did what the rest of the Nuga's couldn't.
Pretty sad commentary on the North American Prabhupadanuga
contingent. But at least we haven't transgressed the way Its-a-con
leaders have. We still have our conscience intact, our dignity and
integrity. The rest will follow.
On Apr 30, 12:29 pm, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes! I'm very interested to know this. And who is the currant rep and why this person? I have no particular challenge, just curiosity.
>
> RCB
>
> ________________________________
> To: istag...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 11:54:54 AM
> Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
>
> Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> I found the following onhttp://krishna.org/iskcon-accepts-one-ritvik-temple-and-irm-disintegr...
> Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 11:54:54 AM
> Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
>
> Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
>
> In the meantime the devotees in Bangalore are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada personally. When the Temple President considers a devotee to be ready for initiation he writes a letter recommending the devotee to Srila Prabhupada. Then the devotee goes before Srila Prabhupada and prays: “Dear Srila Prabhupada currently your ritvik representatives are not doing their service so I am asking you to please accept me as your disciple and inspire me to select a spiritual name.” So in this way the ISKCON Bangalore devotees are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada.
>
> ... but the article is 9 years old. Is this still the way that they do it?
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (http://causelessmercy.com/http://rtvik.com/http://pratyatosa.com/http://feedacow.com/http://llbest.com/)
> In the meantime the devotees in Bangalore are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada personally. When the Temple President considers a devotee to be ready for initiation he writes a letter recommending the devotee to Srila Prabhupada. Then the devotee goes before Srila Prabhupada and prays: “Dear Srila Prabhupada currently your ritvik representatives are not doing their service so I am asking you to please accept me as your disciple and inspire me to select a spiritual name.” So in this way the ISKCON Bangalore devotees are being initiated by Srila Prabhupada.
>
> ... but the article is 9 years old. Is this still the way that they do it?
>
> --
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Pratyatosa
Apr 30, 2010, 1:31:15 PM4/30/10
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Very interesting!
We should try to get ISKCON Bangalore to send devotees to the USA to start temples.
We should try to get ISKCON Bangalore to send devotees to the USA to start temples.
Yahoo
Apr 30, 2010, 1:42:37 PM4/30/10
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Who or what is stopping you from doing that where you stand?
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:31:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik
Initiations
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 1:48:59 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Been there, done that. They have lost interest in America. I was in
an excellent position to assist them in this regard, was in daily
negotiation, speaking to realtors on their behalf in the NY metro
area, gathering support, etc.
In the end, it was all posturing to keep me actively performing other
tasks they wanted me to handle for them, while giving me false hope of
some other thing happening. I didn't take it personally. Just
business. And they are very good Vaisyas.
Until Nimai Pandit das succeeds in his lawsuit, they will not touch
America, and even then I don't think they are so interested anymore
especially if they have to put up cash.
In my opinion they should just focus at home, they still need to
implement DVD and bring their local Sankirtana/prasadam distribution
to a higher level. The other 50%. Then they can throw a rope to the
drowning men out here in USA if we are still treading water.
> ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
an excellent position to assist them in this regard, was in daily
negotiation, speaking to realtors on their behalf in the NY metro
area, gathering support, etc.
In the end, it was all posturing to keep me actively performing other
tasks they wanted me to handle for them, while giving me false hope of
some other thing happening. I didn't take it personally. Just
business. And they are very good Vaisyas.
Until Nimai Pandit das succeeds in his lawsuit, they will not touch
America, and even then I don't think they are so interested anymore
especially if they have to put up cash.
In my opinion they should just focus at home, they still need to
implement DVD and bring their local Sankirtana/prasadam distribution
to a higher level. The other 50%. Then they can throw a rope to the
drowning men out here in USA if we are still treading water.
Pratyatosa
Apr 30, 2010, 1:53:18 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Srila Prabhupada said that a grhastha couple could start a temple with the help of at least one brahmacari. He never said that a temple could be started by a single, solitary vanaprastha.
I'm willing to accept the ISKCON Bangalore GBC as my authority for helping to start a temple in the USA. Anyone else?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
I'm willing to accept the ISKCON Bangalore GBC as my authority for helping to start a temple in the USA. Anyone else?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Yahoo <pdhed...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Who or what is stopping you from doing that where you stand?
Greg Jay
Apr 30, 2010, 1:53:33 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
PAMHO AGTSP
On Apr 30, 2010, at 7:23 AM, mark wrote:
> The temple president of Bangalore Temple, as well as a number of other
> TP's Temples in their region of the world, have cooperated to form
> their own GBC. These TP's consider themselves members of temples
> following the rules of Srila Prabhupada. They consider their temples
> to be ACTUAL loyal Iskcon temples.
>
> They went ahead and did what they had to do. They documented the
> entire process they went through. These TP's gathered in Bangalore
> with senior men from each temple community. They scrutinized Srila
> Prabhupada's instructions for days and discussed how to implement
> them. They decided to first hold local elections at each temple
> involved to be sure the Temple Presidents had support of their local
> congregations to check against any power grabs. All TP's were re-
> elected. They then nominated GBC members, held elections, and that
> was that. All was videotaped for posterity.
All this sounds very good.
> They will formally elect Ritvik representatives next.
Where did Prabhupada order this? Just asking?
> Any initiations the TP's of these temples have authorized up til now were considered
> ritvik initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada
But who authorized these rtviks? Just asking?
> As far as I can see, they did what the rest of the Nuga's couldn't.
>
> Pretty sad commentary on the North American Prabhupadanuga
> contingent.
Yes.
On Apr 30, 2010, at 7:23 AM, mark wrote:
> The temple president of Bangalore Temple, as well as a number of other
> TP's Temples in their region of the world, have cooperated to form
> their own GBC. These TP's consider themselves members of temples
> following the rules of Srila Prabhupada. They consider their temples
> to be ACTUAL loyal Iskcon temples.
>
> They went ahead and did what they had to do. They documented the
> entire process they went through. These TP's gathered in Bangalore
> with senior men from each temple community. They scrutinized Srila
> Prabhupada's instructions for days and discussed how to implement
> them. They decided to first hold local elections at each temple
> involved to be sure the Temple Presidents had support of their local
> congregations to check against any power grabs. All TP's were re-
> elected. They then nominated GBC members, held elections, and that
> was that. All was videotaped for posterity.
> They will formally elect Ritvik representatives next.
> Any initiations the TP's of these temples have authorized up til now were considered
> ritvik initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada
> As far as I can see, they did what the rest of the Nuga's couldn't.
>
> Pretty sad commentary on the North American Prabhupadanuga
> contingent.
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 2:04:52 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Mark said: As far as I can see, they did what the rest of the Nuga's
Mark replies to GKD: " Who asked you? My statement was grave and
rhetorical amongst my brother Nugas. That doesn't include the
prostitutes of Con men like you so you can take your "agreement" and
stick it in your ear.
> ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
couldn't. Pretty sad commentary on the North American Prabhupadanuga
contingent.
GKD said: "Yes."
contingent.
Mark replies to GKD: " Who asked you? My statement was grave and
rhetorical amongst my brother Nugas. That doesn't include the
prostitutes of Con men like you so you can take your "agreement" and
stick it in your ear.
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 2:17:34 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Yeah, what a nasty thing to say knowing Pratyatosa's current
situation. It is obvious he has his own temple already in his little
Bhajan Kutir (sorry, just go with it) there in Michegan. He meant a
public temple with already trained up Bhaktas in assistance.
Pragosha das program out there in Bayonne NJ is so superlative that he
gets bored and has to occupy the peanut gallery on this forum from his
cell phone. Of course this fact wouldn't have stopped him from
explaining to you how sublimely easy it is to start your own roaringly
successful temple "wherever you are" if you just follow his
instructions on the matter.
Let's see how that would go. We pony up some money and rent a
property. Then contact the neophyte "spiritual master" of his son and
have His Holiness bring some uncultured non-english speaking illegal
aliens from Bombay to said property. We then put the new "Guru" on
the Vyasasana, and start sending aspiriing initiates with lots of
dakshina. Of course the Nugas get to attend arotiks and wash pots
when the "help" is sent out to sell flowers. As long as we substitute
the new Guru's name for Srila Prabhupada's in our Pranam mantra.
All glories to Scamkirtana!
On Apr 30, 1:53 pm, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Srila Prabhupada said that a grhastha couple could start a temple with the
> help of at least one brahmacari. He never said that a temple could be
> started by a single, solitary vanaprastha.
>
> I'm willing to accept the ISKCON Bangalore GBC as my authority for helping
> to start a temple in the USA. Anyone else?
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
situation. It is obvious he has his own temple already in his little
Bhajan Kutir (sorry, just go with it) there in Michegan. He meant a
public temple with already trained up Bhaktas in assistance.
Pragosha das program out there in Bayonne NJ is so superlative that he
gets bored and has to occupy the peanut gallery on this forum from his
cell phone. Of course this fact wouldn't have stopped him from
explaining to you how sublimely easy it is to start your own roaringly
successful temple "wherever you are" if you just follow his
instructions on the matter.
Let's see how that would go. We pony up some money and rent a
property. Then contact the neophyte "spiritual master" of his son and
have His Holiness bring some uncultured non-english speaking illegal
aliens from Bombay to said property. We then put the new "Guru" on
the Vyasasana, and start sending aspiriing initiates with lots of
dakshina. Of course the Nugas get to attend arotiks and wash pots
when the "help" is sent out to sell flowers. As long as we substitute
the new Guru's name for Srila Prabhupada's in our Pranam mantra.
All glories to Scamkirtana!
On Apr 30, 1:53 pm, Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Srila Prabhupada said that a grhastha couple could start a temple with the
> help of at least one brahmacari. He never said that a temple could be
> started by a single, solitary vanaprastha.
>
> I'm willing to accept the ISKCON Bangalore GBC as my authority for helping
> to start a temple in the USA. Anyone else?
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Yahoo <pdhedem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Who or what is stopping you from doing that where you stand?
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
>
> To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to:
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> > Who or what is stopping you from doing that where you stand?
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
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Pratyatosa
Apr 30, 2010, 2:45:32 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
During the late 60s to early 70s, starting a temple was relatively easy. All that you had to do was to rent both apartments in a duplex apartment building and get the local hippies to move from one hippie commune to another (your temple). You could also get the street people and the college dropouts to move in. And if they weren't college dropouts, you could sometimes talk them into becoming dropouts. :-)
You could even sometimes get high school dropouts to move into the temple, but then you ran the risk of a lawsuit (i.e. Robin George).
It's not quite so easy anymore. Communal living isn't even legal in the USA anymore.
I was thinking more along the lines of getting the zillions of Indian professors and students associated with Michigan Tech to back a small place of worship with the ISKCON Bangalore GBC as the "ultimate managing authority." (The zillions of Chinese professors/students at Tech already have such a place.)
Recently, I mentioned the ISKCON Bangalore temple to an East Indian Tech student and his eyes lit up. He said that he'd been there, and he was really, really impressed! :-)
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
You could even sometimes get high school dropouts to move into the temple, but then you ran the risk of a lawsuit (i.e. Robin George).
It's not quite so easy anymore. Communal living isn't even legal in the USA anymore.
I was thinking more along the lines of getting the zillions of Indian professors and students associated with Michigan Tech to back a small place of worship with the ISKCON Bangalore GBC as the "ultimate managing authority." (The zillions of Chinese professors/students at Tech already have such a place.)
Recently, I mentioned the ISKCON Bangalore temple to an East Indian Tech student and his eyes lit up. He said that he'd been there, and he was really, really impressed! :-)
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 2:17 PM, mark <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah, what a nasty thing to say knowing Pratyatosa's current
situation. It is obvious he has his own temple already in his little
Bhajan Kutir (sorry, just go with it) there in Michegan. He meant a
public temple with already trained up Bhaktas in assistance.
Pragosha das program out there in Bayonne NJ is so superlative that he
gets bored and has to occupy the peanut gallery on this forum from his
cell phone. Of course this fact wouldn't have stopped him from
explaining to you how sublimely easy it is to start your own roaringly
successful temple "wherever you are" if you just follow his
instructions on the matter.
Let's see how that would go. We pony up some money and rent a
property. Then contact the neophyte "spiritual master" of his son and
have His Holiness bring some uncultured non-english speaking illegal
aliens from Bombay to said property. We then put the new "Guru" on
the Vyasasana, and start sending aspiriing initiates with lots of
dakshina. Of course the Nugas get to attend arotiks and wash pots
when the "help" is sent out to sell flowers. As long as we substitute
the new Guru's name for Srila Prabhupada's in our Pranam mantra.
All glories to Scamkirtana!
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 2:50:21 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
A couple questions were raised recently regarding the Bangalore temple
and the regional group of temples they belong to, they were addressed
to me.
1. Mark stated: "They will formally elect Ritvik representatives
next."
Questioner: "Where did Prabhupada order this? Just asking?"
Mark replies: "Bangalore has the documentation."
2. Mark stated: "Any initiations the TP's of these temples have
Questioner: "But who authorized these rtviks? Just asking?"
Mark replies: The TP decided to initiate devotees who had been
observed for 1 year and fulfilled the requirements for initiation.
The TP made the decision. As I wrote, the TP authorized the
initiations. Brahmanas presided over the Yajna and the newly
initiated are considered by themselves and everyone there, the TP, the
priests, the Bangalore congregation, to be initiated disciples of
Srila Prahbupada.
Mark's comment: I know there are some who would like to think that
because Srila Prabhupada never directly addressed the specific
situation his earnest disciples face today, with point by point
instructions on how to respond all contained in the same conversation,
that the Prabhupadanuga's are therefore chained by lack of authority
to do much of anything except to surrender to the "new and improved"
GBC of corporate Iskcon, and give up their "ritvik fantasy/heresy".
At least they make a very public show of denouncing any and all
organized attempts to please Srila Prabhupada as "unauthorized".
But what their pea-brains fail to grasp is that these Disciples have
already referenced and cross-referenced Srila Prabhupada's entire Vani
in order to technically and officially defend all of their organized
activity, and most if not all such activity was inspired by reading
Srila Prabhupada's Vani and not simply the result of a speculative
reaction to the horrific jeopardy the leaders of corporate Iskcon have
forced these Disciples to face, even though such reactions are
sometimes perfectly understandable and even unavoidable.
As I mentioned, the entire process from conception to execution was
meticulously documented by the Bharata Varsa Iskcon Coalition. If
someone has a burning need to know chapter and verse, that is where to
start. Inquire at the Bangalore temple I suppose.
and the regional group of temples they belong to, they were addressed
to me.
1. Mark stated: "They will formally elect Ritvik representatives
next."
Questioner: "Where did Prabhupada order this? Just asking?"
Mark replies: "Bangalore has the documentation."
2. Mark stated: "Any initiations the TP's of these temples have
authorized up til now were considered
ritvik initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada."
Questioner: "But who authorized these rtviks? Just asking?"
Mark replies: The TP decided to initiate devotees who had been
observed for 1 year and fulfilled the requirements for initiation.
The TP made the decision. As I wrote, the TP authorized the
initiations. Brahmanas presided over the Yajna and the newly
initiated are considered by themselves and everyone there, the TP, the
priests, the Bangalore congregation, to be initiated disciples of
Srila Prahbupada.
Mark's comment: I know there are some who would like to think that
because Srila Prabhupada never directly addressed the specific
situation his earnest disciples face today, with point by point
instructions on how to respond all contained in the same conversation,
that the Prabhupadanuga's are therefore chained by lack of authority
to do much of anything except to surrender to the "new and improved"
GBC of corporate Iskcon, and give up their "ritvik fantasy/heresy".
At least they make a very public show of denouncing any and all
organized attempts to please Srila Prabhupada as "unauthorized".
But what their pea-brains fail to grasp is that these Disciples have
already referenced and cross-referenced Srila Prabhupada's entire Vani
in order to technically and officially defend all of their organized
activity, and most if not all such activity was inspired by reading
Srila Prabhupada's Vani and not simply the result of a speculative
reaction to the horrific jeopardy the leaders of corporate Iskcon have
forced these Disciples to face, even though such reactions are
sometimes perfectly understandable and even unavoidable.
As I mentioned, the entire process from conception to execution was
meticulously documented by the Bharata Varsa Iskcon Coalition. If
someone has a burning need to know chapter and verse, that is where to
start. Inquire at the Bangalore temple I suppose.
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 3:06:17 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
GKD
That is your opinion and has no more bearing on the factual issues than that it is a COMMON ARTIFACT OF ALL CONDITIONED SOULS TO HAVE ONE(opinion).
Opinions from conditioned/motivatred souls are cheap!
Hare Krsna
RCB
From: Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 12:53:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
Greg Jay
Apr 30, 2010, 3:11:09 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
On Apr 30, 2010, at 8:50 AM, mark wrote:
> A couple questions were raised recently regarding the Bangalore temple
> and the regional group of temples they belong to, they were addressed
> to me.
>
> 1. Mark stated: "They will formally elect Ritvik representatives
> next."
>
> Questioner: "Where did Prabhupada order this? Just asking?"
>
> Mark replies: "Bangalore has the documentation."
You still haven't answered the question. If such a course of action was authorized by Srila Prabhupada then why would it not be mentioned by Krishnakant Desai in the Final Order?
Perhaps all of you should know the answer to this question. Let me know if and when you find out. It seems important.
> 2. Mark stated: "Any initiations the TP's of these temples have
> authorized up til now were considered
> ritvik initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada."
>
> Questioner: "But who authorized these rtviks? Just asking?"
>
> Mark replies: The TP decided to initiate devotees who had been
> observed for 1 year and fulfilled the requirements for initiation.
> The TP made the decision. As I wrote, the TP authorized the
> initiations.
If you do not know then just honestly say so. Then I think you should go find out.
It sounds sort of important to me.
QUESTIONER
Greg Jay
Apr 30, 2010, 3:15:05 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Are you saying that it is your opinion that the July 9th letter contains instructions for others to do initiations if the rtviks appointed by Srila Prabhupada failed to act?
Please clarify your opinion.
If this is your opinion then how can you be both for and against the same act.
GKD
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 3:17:14 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Interesting, but until they or anyone else, actively preaches DVD, I would not participate. But then others could be enthusiastic by my absence, lol.
No DVD? is not for me, good luck without human culture. Ugrakarma aMerickan anti-culture has proved over the yrs to be a failure in devotee culture. Or should I say absence of culture.
Hare Krsna
RCB
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 1:53:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
Pratyatosa
Apr 30, 2010, 3:21:26 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Dear Gaura Keshava Prabhu. You, like Praghosa and Rocana Prabhus, like to find fault with the ritvik system of initiations at ISKCON Bangalore, but where is your positive alternative? Rocana also has no positive alternative. Even though it doesn't work very well, and is against Srila Prabhupada's crystal-clear prescription for ISKCON, at least Praghosa has a positive alternative: ISKCON's current concocted multiple-diksa "guru" initiation system.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:
If you don't know then be honest and just say "I don't know."
> Mark replies: "Bangalore has the documentation."
You still haven't answered the question. If such a course of action was authorized by Srila Prabhupada then why would it not be mentioned by Krishnakant Desai in the Final Order?
Perhaps all of you should know the answer to this question. Let me know if and when you find out. It seems important.
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 3:34:51 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
What you say is true about the 60/70's. But I have never heard of such a thing as communal living being illegal now. Family is as family does, how could such a thing be stopped? Could you give some refernce?
RCB
From: Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com>
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 2:45:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
Pratyatosa
Apr 30, 2010, 3:43:14 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Now-a-days, when you rent an apartment or a house, you have to sign a lease which states who is allowed to live there and how long guests are allowed to stay. Even if you own a house, there are strict zoning laws stating that it's a single family dwelling and that only blood relatives are allowed to live there. If it's out in the country, then there are further restrictions on how many people are allowed to share the septic system.
Ys, Ptd
Ys, Ptd
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
What you say is true about the 60/70's. But I have never heard of such a thing as communal living being illegal now. Family is as family does, how could such a thing be stopped? Could you give some reference?RCB
Greg Jay
Apr 30, 2010, 3:54:49 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
If you want my answer then I'll give it.
Prabhupada appointed ONLY 11 men to be rtviks.
No one else is authorized by him.
The sastra says that people should first be educated about the qualifications of a guru.
Next search and mutually test such a guru for at least one year.
Finally when both parties are satisfied they formalize the relationship by the guru giving diksha.
After this more siksha continues.
Prabhupada always emphasized this sastric system.
I am sure Praghosa educated his children and then let them make their own choice.
I support more education in ISKCON also so that people don't automatically choose someone ONLY because they are on a list of officially approved persons.
Our job is not to tell people who they should repose faith in.
I am sure that the devotees have faith in Madhupandit after hearing him explain the qualifications of guru to them.
He is their siksha guru and he has given them diksha. That is how the system naturally works.
Prabhupada never authorized him as a rtvik so he can't be a rtvik.
He is their guru and they are indirectly disciples of Srila Prabhupada because of it.
GKD
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 4:01:13 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Do you have a thing for KK? then you should write him. I do not think he is on this forum. Is he?
As for us here, we follow Srila Prabhupada!
You should prove opinions are essential and nessesary from the disciple before asking more question when you yourself will not answer a simple one.
WHERE IS IT SAID THAT APARARDHA IS SUBJECT TO OPINION?
RCB
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 4:05:23 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
GKD
I have not stated any of the things you state below.
I say until you prove Vaisnava aparadha is subject to opinion from a devotee or surender to the fact that you misspoke. then what gives you the right to ask any of us anything?
RCB
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 3:15:05 PM
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 4:12:53 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Questioner states:
"If you don't know then be honest and just say "I don't know."
My reply:
Implied in my answer "Bangalore has the documentation", is both
1. An admittance that I surmise that I cannot reproduce the answer
with enough technical precision to satisfy you.
2. Direct guidance to the source of the appropriate documentation of
Srila Prabhupada's orders in that regard which would thoroughly answer
your question.
Therefore saying "I don't know" was wholly inappropriate, and
regardless of your motivated opinion on the matter, you can find the
exact answer by inquiring at the Bangalore temple, they have the
answer all mapped out nice and tidy for all the challengers that they
were expecting.
Live with it, I don't owe you my summation minus quotes, and there is
a great likelihood that all you would do is bastardize a straw man out
of it anyway according to the modus operandi you have displayed in the
past.
Questioner states: "You still haven't answered the question. If such
ritviks?" I gave you my answer in the last post, you are just to
slow to comprehend what the answer means.
Why do you presume that everything regarding Srila Prabhupada's wishes
is contained in the Final Order? I don't.
Questioner states: "Same question. What is the authority from Srila
Prabhupada allowing TPs to authorize initiations on their own."
My reply: Strange how a person, who publicly supports those whose
very life work is epitomized by a lack of Srila Prabhupada's
authority, can be so stridently inquisitive toward those whom it is
plainly evident consider his authority much more carefully and
reverentially than anyone.
Now to your question, first I will answer your question with a
question.
What is the authority from Srila Prabhupada allowing currently voted
in Gurus to sit the Vyasasana and give "Diksa" and change the meaning
of his purports to suit the "current understanding of initiation as it
is in Iskcon today." (Quote from Dravida das). ???
Then I will answer it directly.
In my opinion, the only way a Temple President could have had the
authority to authorize a yajna and accept a disciple on Srila
Prabhupada's behalf is through Supersoul in the heart. A TP can only
be authorized "by the book" if he first bands together with other TPs,
forms a GBC, and allows GBC to select Ritviks for the TP to utilize.
Bangalore and other temples may have put the cart before the horse if
they performed initiations that were not sanctioned by Srila
Prabhupada in their hearts. But that isn't for me or you to know IS
IT?
As far as I am concerned, even if they were concocting on such a minor
level in such an extreme emergency just to initiate some Bhaktas,
before the full check and balance system was in place. They put the
cart before the horse, but the horse was quick to catch up, no harm no
foul.
And as long as they did not claim Diksa Guruship over the initiated
(which they don't) then it is easily forgivable, quite bonafide, and
now that they have put the horse in front, the GBC will select ritviks
for the future (see documentation in Bangalore) and even the
nitpicking ninnies will lose their nits to pick.
NEXT
> ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
"If you don't know then be honest and just say "I don't know."
Implied in my answer "Bangalore has the documentation", is both
1. An admittance that I surmise that I cannot reproduce the answer
with enough technical precision to satisfy you.
2. Direct guidance to the source of the appropriate documentation of
Srila Prabhupada's orders in that regard which would thoroughly answer
your question.
Therefore saying "I don't know" was wholly inappropriate, and
regardless of your motivated opinion on the matter, you can find the
exact answer by inquiring at the Bangalore temple, they have the
answer all mapped out nice and tidy for all the challengers that they
were expecting.
Live with it, I don't owe you my summation minus quotes, and there is
a great likelihood that all you would do is bastardize a straw man out
of it anyway according to the modus operandi you have displayed in the
past.
Questioner states: "You still haven't answered the question. If such
a course of action was authorized by Srila Prabhupada then why would
it not be mentioned by Krishnakant Desai in the Final Order?"
My reply: Your original question was actually, "Who authorized these
it not be mentioned by Krishnakant Desai in the Final Order?"
ritviks?" I gave you my answer in the last post, you are just to
slow to comprehend what the answer means.
Why do you presume that everything regarding Srila Prabhupada's wishes
is contained in the Final Order? I don't.
Questioner states: "Same question. What is the authority from Srila
Prabhupada allowing TPs to authorize initiations on their own."
My reply: Strange how a person, who publicly supports those whose
very life work is epitomized by a lack of Srila Prabhupada's
authority, can be so stridently inquisitive toward those whom it is
plainly evident consider his authority much more carefully and
reverentially than anyone.
Now to your question, first I will answer your question with a
question.
What is the authority from Srila Prabhupada allowing currently voted
in Gurus to sit the Vyasasana and give "Diksa" and change the meaning
of his purports to suit the "current understanding of initiation as it
is in Iskcon today." (Quote from Dravida das). ???
Then I will answer it directly.
In my opinion, the only way a Temple President could have had the
authority to authorize a yajna and accept a disciple on Srila
Prabhupada's behalf is through Supersoul in the heart. A TP can only
be authorized "by the book" if he first bands together with other TPs,
forms a GBC, and allows GBC to select Ritviks for the TP to utilize.
Bangalore and other temples may have put the cart before the horse if
they performed initiations that were not sanctioned by Srila
Prabhupada in their hearts. But that isn't for me or you to know IS
IT?
As far as I am concerned, even if they were concocting on such a minor
level in such an extreme emergency just to initiate some Bhaktas,
before the full check and balance system was in place. They put the
cart before the horse, but the horse was quick to catch up, no harm no
foul.
And as long as they did not claim Diksa Guruship over the initiated
(which they don't) then it is easily forgivable, quite bonafide, and
now that they have put the horse in front, the GBC will select ritviks
for the future (see documentation in Bangalore) and even the
nitpicking ninnies will lose their nits to pick.
NEXT
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 4:15:57 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
I see your point, I took it that it was specifically against the law.
As for practical applications we could do a great deal of things outside of normal parameters. Like installing our own additional septic system for the cost of materials, so on and so forth. Where there is a will, there is a way. Communal living can still be done, but just not as simply as it could have back when we were told to do so by Srila Prabhupada.
Funny how that works out.
Hare Krsna
RCB
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 3:43:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 4:19:25 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Your opinion is not supported by MadhuPandit dasa nor Srila
Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada left a method by which Ritviks can be added.
I told you how you could find the documentation.
You reject it without research just to spout your opinion. Classy.
Kind of like your classy opinion that what constitutes Guru Aparadha
is subject to opinion.
"destined for the most obnoxious place in the universe" Better get
the travel guide GKD, it won't be long now.
On Apr 30, 3:54 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you want my answer then I'll give it.
>
> Prabhupada appointed ONLY 11 men to be rtviks.
>
> No one else is authorized by him.
>
> The sastra says that people should first be educated about the qualifications of a guru.
>
> Next search and mutually test such a guru for at least one year.
>
> Finally when both parties are satisfied they formalize the relationship by the guru giving diksha.
>
> After this more siksha continues.
>
> Prabhupada always emphasized this sastric system.
>
> I am sure Praghosa educated his children and then let them make their own choice.
>
> I support more education in ISKCON also so that people don't automatically choose someone ONLY because they are on a list of officially approved persons.
>
> Our job is not to tell people who they should repose faith in.
>
> I am sure that the devotees have faith in Madhupandit after hearing him explain the qualifications of guru to them.
>
> He is their siksha guru and he has given them diksha. That is how the system naturally works.
>
> Prabhupada never authorized him as a rtvik so he can't be a rtvik.
>
> He is their guru and they are indirectly disciples of Srila Prabhupada because of it.
>
> GKD
>
> On Apr 30, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Gaura Keshava Prabhu. You, like Praghosa and Rocana Prabhus, like to find fault with the ritvik system of initiations at ISKCON Bangalore, but where is your positive alternative? Rocana also has no positive alternative. Even though it doesn't work very well, and is against Srila Prabhupada's crystal-clear prescription for ISKCON, at least Praghosa has a positive alternative: ISKCON's current concocted multiple-diksa "guru" initiation system.
>
> > Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada left a method by which Ritviks can be added.
I told you how you could find the documentation.
You reject it without research just to spout your opinion. Classy.
Kind of like your classy opinion that what constitutes Guru Aparadha
is subject to opinion.
"destined for the most obnoxious place in the universe" Better get
the travel guide GKD, it won't be long now.
On Apr 30, 3:54 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you want my answer then I'll give it.
>
> Prabhupada appointed ONLY 11 men to be rtviks.
>
> No one else is authorized by him.
>
> The sastra says that people should first be educated about the qualifications of a guru.
>
> Next search and mutually test such a guru for at least one year.
>
> Finally when both parties are satisfied they formalize the relationship by the guru giving diksha.
>
> After this more siksha continues.
>
> Prabhupada always emphasized this sastric system.
>
> I am sure Praghosa educated his children and then let them make their own choice.
>
> I support more education in ISKCON also so that people don't automatically choose someone ONLY because they are on a list of officially approved persons.
>
> Our job is not to tell people who they should repose faith in.
>
> I am sure that the devotees have faith in Madhupandit after hearing him explain the qualifications of guru to them.
>
> He is their siksha guru and he has given them diksha. That is how the system naturally works.
>
> Prabhupada never authorized him as a rtvik so he can't be a rtvik.
>
> He is their guru and they are indirectly disciples of Srila Prabhupada because of it.
>
> GKD
>
> On Apr 30, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Pratyatosa wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Gaura Keshava Prabhu. You, like Praghosa and Rocana Prabhus, like to find fault with the ritvik system of initiations at ISKCON Bangalore, but where is your positive alternative? Rocana also has no positive alternative. Even though it doesn't work very well, and is against Srila Prabhupada's crystal-clear prescription for ISKCON, at least Praghosa has a positive alternative: ISKCON's current concocted multiple-diksa "guru" initiation system.
>
> > Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
> > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Mark replies: "Bangalore has the documentation."
>
> > If you don't know then be honest and just say "I don't know."
>
> > You still haven't answered the question. If such a course of action was authorized by Srila Prabhupada then why would it not be mentioned by Krishnakant Desai in the Final Order?
>
> > Perhaps all of you should know the answer to this question. Let me know if and when you find out. It seems important.
>
> > --
> > You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
>
> > To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to:
> > istag...@googlegroups.com
>
> > Getting too many emails? Please go to:
> >http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe
> > ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
>
> > > Mark replies: "Bangalore has the documentation."
>
> > If you don't know then be honest and just say "I don't know."
>
> > You still haven't answered the question. If such a course of action was authorized by Srila Prabhupada then why would it not be mentioned by Krishnakant Desai in the Final Order?
>
> > Perhaps all of you should know the answer to this question. Let me know if and when you find out. It seems important.
>
> > --
> > You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
>
> > To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to:
> > istag...@googlegroups.com
>
> > Getting too many emails? Please go to:
> >http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe
>
> > For more options, please go to:
> >http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi
>
> > To cancel your membership, please send an email to:
> > istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
>
> To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to:
> istag...@googlegroups.com
>
> Getting too many emails? Please go to:http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe
> ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
> > For more options, please go to:
> >http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi
>
> > To cancel your membership, please send an email to:
> > istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
>
> To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to:
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>
> Getting too many emails? Please go to:http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 4:30:17 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Hare Krsna Bk Mark
You are so generous to this devotee, I'm astounded by your magnanimity toward him. I think he just needs his butt kicked, but you would even still speak in even terms and render an eloquent rebuttal.
All I can do is cheer you on!
Hare Krsna
RCB
From: mark <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 4:12:53 PM
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
> istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com
--
You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
To post to our group for all the world to see, please send an email to:
istag...@googlegroups.com
Getting too many emails? Please go to:
http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/subscribe
... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (praty...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
For more options, please go to:
http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi
To cancel your membership, please send an email to:
istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com
Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 4:33:17 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Fantastic OPINION!
But it stinks......(can I say that?)
Hare Krsna
RCB
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik Initiations
Yahoo
Apr 30, 2010, 4:34:55 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com, praty...@gmail.com
I was not being "nasty" towards you Pratytosa - no matter how this young man misreads it. I was merely trying to encourage you. Stating the obvious. That's all. Mark could himself move to the UP with you and you could both take bill by the horns and just "go for it". Mark I am sorry if my use of my Phone irks you but it is simply a tiny portable tool. Kindly ignore that.
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:45:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik
Initiations
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 4:40:41 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Divide and conquer. Confabulate and obfuscate. Trojan Horse. BM
out.
On Apr 30, 4:34 pm, "Yahoo" <pdhedem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was not being "nasty" towards you Pratytosa - no matter how this young man misreads it. I was merely trying to encourage you. Stating the obvious. That's all. Mark could himself move to the UP with you and you could both take bill by the horns and just "go for it". Mark I am sorry if my use of my Phone irks you but it is simply a tiny portable tool. Kindly ignore that.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> ... and change your email settings, or request Pratyatosa Dasa (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
out.
On Apr 30, 4:34 pm, "Yahoo" <pdhedem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was not being "nasty" towards you Pratytosa - no matter how this young man misreads it. I was merely trying to encourage you. Stating the obvious. That's all. Mark could himself move to the UP with you and you could both take bill by the horns and just "go for it". Mark I am sorry if my use of my Phone irks you but it is simply a tiny portable tool. Kindly ignore that.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:45:32
> To: <istag...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik
>
> Initiations
>
> During the late 60s to early 70s, starting a temple was relatively easy. All
> that you had to do was to rent both apartments in a duplex apartment
> building and get the local hippies to move from one hippie commune to
> another (your temple). You could also get the street people and the college
> dropouts to move in. And if they weren't college dropouts, you could
> sometimes talk them into becoming dropouts. :-)
>
> You could even sometimes get high school dropouts to move into the temple,
> but then you ran the risk of a lawsuit (i.e. Robin George).
>
> It's not quite so easy anymore. Communal living isn't even legal in the USA
> anymore.
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of getting the zillions of Indian
> professors and students associated with Michigan Tech
> <http://www.mtu.edu/>to back a small place of worship with the ISKCON
> From: Pratyatosa <pratyat...@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:45:32
> To: <istag...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik
>
> Initiations
>
> During the late 60s to early 70s, starting a temple was relatively easy. All
> that you had to do was to rent both apartments in a duplex apartment
> building and get the local hippies to move from one hippie commune to
> another (your temple). You could also get the street people and the college
> dropouts to move in. And if they weren't college dropouts, you could
> sometimes talk them into becoming dropouts. :-)
>
> You could even sometimes get high school dropouts to move into the temple,
> but then you ran the risk of a lawsuit (i.e. Robin George).
>
> It's not quite so easy anymore. Communal living isn't even legal in the USA
> anymore.
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of getting the zillions of Indian
> professors and students associated with Michigan Tech
> Bangalore GBC as the
> "ultimate managing authority." (The zillions of Chinese professors/students
> at Tech already have such a place.)
>
> Recently, I mentioned the ISKCON Bangalore temple to an East Indian Tech
> student and his eyes lit up. He said that he'd been there, and he was
> really, really impressed! :-)
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
> "ultimate managing authority." (The zillions of Chinese professors/students
> at Tech already have such a place.)
>
> Recently, I mentioned the ISKCON Bangalore temple to an East Indian Tech
> student and his eyes lit up. He said that he'd been there, and he was
> really, really impressed! :-)
>
> Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
>
>
> For more options, please go to:http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi
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mark
Apr 30, 2010, 4:49:49 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Funny Prabhu, while you were considering my magnanimity to GKD, I was
posting this...
"Your opinion is not supported by MadhuPandit dasa nor Srila
Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada left a method by which Ritviks can be added.
I told you how you could find the documentation.
You reject it without research just to spout your opinion. Classy.
Kind of like your classy opinion that what constitutes Guru Aparadha
is subject to opinion.
"destined for the most obnoxious place in the universe" Better get
the travel guide GKD, it won't be long now.
**************
I agree about the butt-kicking and know it is on the way, above my pay-
grade to participate in that anyway.
"Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord".
The power to Re-Butt, however, is perfectly within my job
description. It is like tenderizing his flabby butt for the big show.
Or you never know, the truth could find a way in.
On Apr 30, 4:30 pm, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hare Krsna Bk Mark
>
> You are so generous to this devotee, I'm astounded by your magnanimity toward him. I think he just needs his butt kicked, but you would even still speak in even terms and render an eloquent rebuttal.
>
> All I can do is cheer you on!
>
> Hare Krsna
>
> RCB
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mark <markmac...@yahoo.com>
> > istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com
posting this...
"Your opinion is not supported by MadhuPandit dasa nor Srila
Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada left a method by which Ritviks can be added.
I told you how you could find the documentation.
You reject it without research just to spout your opinion. Classy.
Kind of like your classy opinion that what constitutes Guru Aparadha
is subject to opinion.
"destined for the most obnoxious place in the universe" Better get
the travel guide GKD, it won't be long now.
I agree about the butt-kicking and know it is on the way, above my pay-
grade to participate in that anyway.
"Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord".
The power to Re-Butt, however, is perfectly within my job
description. It is like tenderizing his flabby butt for the big show.
Or you never know, the truth could find a way in.
On Apr 30, 4:30 pm, Bhaktatraveler <bhaktatrave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hare Krsna Bk Mark
>
> You are so generous to this devotee, I'm astounded by your magnanimity toward him. I think he just needs his butt kicked, but you would even still speak in even terms and render an eloquent rebuttal.
>
> All I can do is cheer you on!
>
> Hare Krsna
>
> RCB
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> --
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Bhaktatraveler
Apr 30, 2010, 5:10:53 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
If Krsna so desires we will have an even playing field soon. Then varna cheating will have no place to hide. Until then, we have sudra on top, brahman on bottom or something in between.
Hare Krsna
RCB
From: mark <markm...@yahoo.com>
To: Prabhupadanuga <istag...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, April 30, 2010 4:49:49 PM
> > istagosthi+unsub...@googlegroups.com
>
> --
> You have received this email message because you are a member of the Google Prabhupadanuga group.
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Pratyatosa
Apr 30, 2010, 7:14:14 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> wrote:
Recently, I mentioned the ISKCON Bangalore temple to an East Indian Tech student and his eyes lit up. He said that he'd been there, and he was really, really impressed! :-)
I briefly explained to this same Indian student about the huge rift between ISKCON Bangalore and the rest of ISKCON over the ritvik issue, and he immediately understood.
Paul Howard
Apr 30, 2010, 7:14:04 PM4/30/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Why is this antagonist still here? I've got two Outlook rules immediately
deleting his e-mails, but sometimes they still get through when folks reply to
him. There's an Internet expression, "Don't feed the trolls,"
something we might want to consider.
A big part of why I put his e-mail on my blacklist is because he was persistently harassing me to get initiated via rtvik, and a big part of why I haven't is because I'm not sure how it should be done. So here he is criticizing how it's being done in the most successful Hare Krishna temple in the world. We were debating this rtvik topic some time ago, and I was countering his points without difficulty, which he would then recycle anyway, and he said I wasn't fit to debate with him because I'm not initiated as a brahmana. So he'll criticize me for not being as initiated as him and then he'll criticize more for getting an initiation that he doesn't consider bona fide.
Why doesn't he go to his GBC and harass them for their concocted system? I guess that would that be biting the hand that feeds him.
Hare Krishna.
Paul H.
mark
Apr 30, 2010, 7:38:29 PM4/30/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Well stated.
For GKD, GBC = Getta Bowl of Channa
On Apr 30, 7:14 pm, "Paul Howard" <pandu108....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is this antagonist still here? I've got two Outlook rules immediately
> deleting his e-mails, but sometimes they still get through when folks reply
> to him. There's an Internet expression, "Don't feed the trolls," something
> we might want to consider.
>
> A big part of why I put his e-mail on my blacklist is because he was
> persistently harassing me to get initiated via rtvik, and a big part of why
> I haven't is because I'm not sure how it should be done. So here he is
> criticizing how it's being done in the most successful Hare Krishna temple
> in the world. We were debating this rtvik topic some time ago, and I was
> countering his points without difficulty, which he would then recycle
> anyway, and he said I wasn't fit to debate with him because I'm not
> initiated as a brahmana. So he'll criticize me for not being as initiated
> as him and then he'll criticize more for getting an initiation that he
> doesn't consider bona fide.
>
> Why doesn't he go to his GBC and harass them for their concocted system? I
> guess that would that be biting the hand that feeds him.
>
> Hare Krishna.
>
> Paul H.
>
> _____
>
> (pratyat...@gmail.com) to change your settings for you.
For GKD, GBC = Getta Bowl of Channa
On Apr 30, 7:14 pm, "Paul Howard" <pandu108....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is this antagonist still here? I've got two Outlook rules immediately
> deleting his e-mails, but sometimes they still get through when folks reply
> to him. There's an Internet expression, "Don't feed the trolls," something
> we might want to consider.
>
> A big part of why I put his e-mail on my blacklist is because he was
> persistently harassing me to get initiated via rtvik, and a big part of why
> I haven't is because I'm not sure how it should be done. So here he is
> criticizing how it's being done in the most successful Hare Krishna temple
> in the world. We were debating this rtvik topic some time ago, and I was
> countering his points without difficulty, which he would then recycle
> anyway, and he said I wasn't fit to debate with him because I'm not
> initiated as a brahmana. So he'll criticize me for not being as initiated
> as him and then he'll criticize more for getting an initiation that he
> doesn't consider bona fide.
>
> Why doesn't he go to his GBC and harass them for their concocted system? I
> guess that would that be biting the hand that feeds him.
>
> Hare Krishna.
>
> Paul H.
>
> _____
>
>
> For more options, please go to:http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi
>
> To cancel your membership, please send an email to:
> istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com
>
> --
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mark
May 1, 2010, 9:06:48 PM5/1/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Below I will reprint GKD's opinion on Ritvik initiations, and indicate
where I agree, and where I don't IN PARENTHESIS.
GKD QUOTE:
GKD: If you want my answer then I'll give it.
GKD: Prabhupada appointed ONLY 11 men to be rtviks.
(true)
GKD: No one else is authorized by him.
(false) (he gave sanction for more to be selected, thus authorized)
GKD: The sastra says that people should first be educated about the
mandate that only officially approved persons get new slaves.)
GKD: Our job is not to tell people who they should repose faith in.
(False. By educating properly, we do exactly that, we tell people who
to repose their faith in. After that, as far as their choice, we
cannot control)
GKD: I am sure that the devotees have faith in Madhupandit after
GKD: He is their siksha guru and he has given them diksha. That is how
the system naturally works.
(CRUX OF THE MATTER)
(True he is their siksa guru. True he arranged their diksa ceremony
and may even have presided. This system was created by acaryas. The
latest acarya added a twist. That he would personally accept all
future comers as his initiated disciple. This fact does not exclude
the siksa relationship that a new initiate has with Madhu Pandit das,
and any others in the community who offer Siksa. This was a special
function of the Lord's mercy that Srila Prabhupada offered to take
responsibility of any one who was properly initiated by his Ritviks.
He had great hopes that such chaste disciples would not be looking for
selfish glory, and would be very strict about guiding disciples
without personal motivation. And just in case, according to his
ritvik order, EVERYONE KNOWS that every single piece of guidance the
Siksa Guru gives to a new disciple MUST be backed up by Srila
Prabhupada's own instructional paradigm or be deemed a deviant order.
This is the failsafe test. The new Siksa Guru is a ritvik
representative, and thus not santioned to prescribe a sadhana practice
different than Srila Prabhupada while giving instruction in Srila
Prabhupada's asrama. The problem is that devoees like GKD want to
make it up as they go along under the rubrik of changing time, place,
and circumstance, thus relegating Srila Prabhupada. Ritvik was a
simple formality to underscore the importance of chastity, not to
derail the parampara as GKD and his ilk mis-construe it to be)
GKD: Prabhupada never authorized him as a rtvik so he can't be a
rtvik.
(Dealt with. It is the spirit of the law that counts and Madhu Pandit
dasa was one with Srila Prabhupada in spirit in this regard,
especially as he was in the process of discovering all the hidden
evidence of what Srila Prabhupada's orders really were and gradually
implementing the system under heavy fire from the opposition)
GKD: He is their guru and they are indirectly disciples of Srila
Prabhupada because of it.
(True Madhu Pandit das is a guru to them. FALSE to say they are only
indirect disciples of Srila Prabhupada. If they take decades of Siksa
from Srila Prabhupada's books and only meet with Madhu Pandit dasa on
occasion, it is folly to claim they are only indirectly being
discipined by Srila Prabhupada. Folly born of ignorance. He reasons
ill who says that Vaisnavas die as they art living still in sound.)
where I agree, and where I don't IN PARENTHESIS.
GKD QUOTE:
GKD: If you want my answer then I'll give it.
GKD: Prabhupada appointed ONLY 11 men to be rtviks.
(true)
GKD: No one else is authorized by him.
(false) (he gave sanction for more to be selected, thus authorized)
GKD: The sastra says that people should first be educated about the
qualifications of a guru.
Next search and mutually test such a guru for at least one year.
Finally when both parties are satisfied they formalize the
relationship by the guru giving diksha.
After this more siksha continues.
Prabhupada always emphasized this sastric system.
I am sure Praghosa educated his children and then let them make their
own choice.
I support more education in ISKCON also so that people don't
automatically choose someone ONLY because they are on a list of
officially approved persons.
(your idea of "more education" is a fantasy that will not change the
Next search and mutually test such a guru for at least one year.
Finally when both parties are satisfied they formalize the
relationship by the guru giving diksha.
After this more siksha continues.
Prabhupada always emphasized this sastric system.
I am sure Praghosa educated his children and then let them make their
own choice.
I support more education in ISKCON also so that people don't
automatically choose someone ONLY because they are on a list of
officially approved persons.
mandate that only officially approved persons get new slaves.)
GKD: Our job is not to tell people who they should repose faith in.
(False. By educating properly, we do exactly that, we tell people who
to repose their faith in. After that, as far as their choice, we
cannot control)
GKD: I am sure that the devotees have faith in Madhupandit after
hearing him explain the qualifications of guru to them.
(Why presume to know that which you do not?)
GKD: He is their siksha guru and he has given them diksha. That is how
the system naturally works.
(CRUX OF THE MATTER)
(True he is their siksa guru. True he arranged their diksa ceremony
and may even have presided. This system was created by acaryas. The
latest acarya added a twist. That he would personally accept all
future comers as his initiated disciple. This fact does not exclude
the siksa relationship that a new initiate has with Madhu Pandit das,
and any others in the community who offer Siksa. This was a special
function of the Lord's mercy that Srila Prabhupada offered to take
responsibility of any one who was properly initiated by his Ritviks.
He had great hopes that such chaste disciples would not be looking for
selfish glory, and would be very strict about guiding disciples
without personal motivation. And just in case, according to his
ritvik order, EVERYONE KNOWS that every single piece of guidance the
Siksa Guru gives to a new disciple MUST be backed up by Srila
Prabhupada's own instructional paradigm or be deemed a deviant order.
This is the failsafe test. The new Siksa Guru is a ritvik
representative, and thus not santioned to prescribe a sadhana practice
different than Srila Prabhupada while giving instruction in Srila
Prabhupada's asrama. The problem is that devoees like GKD want to
make it up as they go along under the rubrik of changing time, place,
and circumstance, thus relegating Srila Prabhupada. Ritvik was a
simple formality to underscore the importance of chastity, not to
derail the parampara as GKD and his ilk mis-construe it to be)
GKD: Prabhupada never authorized him as a rtvik so he can't be a
rtvik.
(Dealt with. It is the spirit of the law that counts and Madhu Pandit
dasa was one with Srila Prabhupada in spirit in this regard,
especially as he was in the process of discovering all the hidden
evidence of what Srila Prabhupada's orders really were and gradually
implementing the system under heavy fire from the opposition)
GKD: He is their guru and they are indirectly disciples of Srila
Prabhupada because of it.
(True Madhu Pandit das is a guru to them. FALSE to say they are only
indirect disciples of Srila Prabhupada. If they take decades of Siksa
from Srila Prabhupada's books and only meet with Madhu Pandit dasa on
occasion, it is folly to claim they are only indirectly being
discipined by Srila Prabhupada. Folly born of ignorance. He reasons
ill who says that Vaisnavas die as they art living still in sound.)
Greg Jay
May 1, 2010, 9:53:26 PM5/1/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
On May 1, 2010, at 3:06 PM, mark wrote:
> GKD: No one else is authorized by him.
>
> (false) (he gave sanction for more to be selected, thus authorized)
mark
May 1, 2010, 10:58:28 PM5/1/10
to Prabhupadanuga
Regarding this issue, I already told you, multiple times, ask
Bangalore temple. They provided me a while back when I was working
with them. I don't have the documentation on file. You will have to
do your own homework on this one if you are really interested. I
would try asking for Nimai Pandit das, Chancalapati das, or Madhu
Pandit das, they might be able to help you.
On May 1, 9:53 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 1, 2010, at 3:06 PM, mark wrote:
>
> > GKD: No one else is authorized by him.
>
> > (false) (he gave sanction for more to be selected, thus authorized)
>
> Could you please quote this instruction?
>
> --
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Bangalore temple. They provided me a while back when I was working
with them. I don't have the documentation on file. You will have to
do your own homework on this one if you are really interested. I
would try asking for Nimai Pandit das, Chancalapati das, or Madhu
Pandit das, they might be able to help you.
On May 1, 9:53 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 1, 2010, at 3:06 PM, mark wrote:
>
> > GKD: No one else is authorized by him.
>
> > (false) (he gave sanction for more to be selected, thus authorized)
>
> Could you please quote this instruction?
>
> --
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Greg Jay
May 1, 2010, 11:00:21 PM5/1/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Thank you.
GKD
GKD
mark
May 1, 2010, 11:36:52 PM5/1/10
to Prabhupadanuga
You are welcome.
From what I recall it was a minor detail and SP stated that new
ritviks could be added (appointed) or replaced (failure to act/ death)
by the GBC.
The entire system of checks and balances is.
TP. GBC. Ritviks.
So if a TP recommends someone and the Ritvik has a problem with the
recommendation, the TP had a chance to appeal on behalf of the
aspirant to GBC. That way a Ritvik would not be tempted to play
political games and withhold approval injudiciously.
Also, remember that after July 9th, there is hard evidence showing a
serious gap in recordings of SP's Vani. Days on end with no tapes at
all, week after week after week. We have Tamal's Topanga Canyon
admittance, and so many other instances of admittance that Srila
Prabhupada left the Ritvik system intact.
The ritvik system is only formality, but an important one. Otherwise,
all else remains as is traditional and natural in terms of Gurus and
their disciples. Nothing changes except there is a little less
likelihood of cheaters getting away with cheating in the face of such
clearly recorded directives. THE SIKSA IN ISCKON MUST NOT CONTRADICT
SRILA PRABHUPADA'S SIKSA. Therefore considering everyone as his
disciple fits this requirement and leaves no wiggle room for our
monkey minds.
Iskcon is not a neophyte play-toy. Time place and cirucmstance were
already adjusted for by the Founder Acarya. If some exigent
circumstance was NOT covered by Srila Prabhupada, THEN we can
speculate (or consult supersoul).
Like, "How many galubjamuns should we serve this weekend at the
festival?"
See, plenty for us to figure out. LOL.
From what I recall it was a minor detail and SP stated that new
ritviks could be added (appointed) or replaced (failure to act/ death)
by the GBC.
The entire system of checks and balances is.
TP. GBC. Ritviks.
So if a TP recommends someone and the Ritvik has a problem with the
recommendation, the TP had a chance to appeal on behalf of the
aspirant to GBC. That way a Ritvik would not be tempted to play
political games and withhold approval injudiciously.
Also, remember that after July 9th, there is hard evidence showing a
serious gap in recordings of SP's Vani. Days on end with no tapes at
all, week after week after week. We have Tamal's Topanga Canyon
admittance, and so many other instances of admittance that Srila
Prabhupada left the Ritvik system intact.
The ritvik system is only formality, but an important one. Otherwise,
all else remains as is traditional and natural in terms of Gurus and
their disciples. Nothing changes except there is a little less
likelihood of cheaters getting away with cheating in the face of such
clearly recorded directives. THE SIKSA IN ISCKON MUST NOT CONTRADICT
SRILA PRABHUPADA'S SIKSA. Therefore considering everyone as his
disciple fits this requirement and leaves no wiggle room for our
monkey minds.
Iskcon is not a neophyte play-toy. Time place and cirucmstance were
already adjusted for by the Founder Acarya. If some exigent
circumstance was NOT covered by Srila Prabhupada, THEN we can
speculate (or consult supersoul).
Like, "How many galubjamuns should we serve this weekend at the
festival?"
See, plenty for us to figure out. LOL.
Paul Howard
May 6, 2010, 9:53:39 PM5/6/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Sorry I'm a little late with this, but here's something:
"Before I got ready to type the letter, I asked him, two: 'Srila Prabhupada
is this all or do you want to add more?'. He said, 'As is necessary, others
may be added.'" - TKG, Topanga Canyon, Dec. 3, 1980.
- Paul H.
-----Original Message-----
From: istag...@googlegroups.com [mailto:istag...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of mark
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 10:58 PM
To: Prabhupadanuga
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik
Initiations
"Before I got ready to type the letter, I asked him, two: 'Srila Prabhupada
is this all or do you want to add more?'. He said, 'As is necessary, others
may be added.'" - TKG, Topanga Canyon, Dec. 3, 1980.
- Paul H.
-----Original Message-----
From: istag...@googlegroups.com [mailto:istag...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of mark
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 10:58 PM
To: Prabhupadanuga
Subject: [Prabhupadanuga] Re: How ISKCON Bangalore Performs Ritvik
Initiations
Pratyatosa
May 7, 2010, 1:02:42 AM5/7/10
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Great quote, but it's a little confusing when you include the word "two" out of context:
Later on I asked him two questions: 1) What about Brahmananda Swami? I asked him this because I happened to have an affection for Brahmananda Swami. I don’t know, I asked him because somehow he’s…I asked him, whatever. So Prabhupada said, “No, not unless he’s qualified.” Before I got ready to type the letter, I asked him: 2) “Srila Prabhupada, is this all or do you want to add more?” He said, “As is necessary, others may be added.”
(From http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=8860)
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Later on I asked him two questions: 1) What about Brahmananda Swami? I asked him this because I happened to have an affection for Brahmananda Swami. I don’t know, I asked him because somehow he’s…I asked him, whatever. So Prabhupada said, “No, not unless he’s qualified.” Before I got ready to type the letter, I asked him: 2) “Srila Prabhupada, is this all or do you want to add more?” He said, “As is necessary, others may be added.”
(From http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=8860)
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Paul Howard <pandu1...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry I'm a little late with this, but here's something:
"Before I got ready to type the letter, I asked him, two: 'Srila Prabhupada
is this all or do you want to add more?'. He said, 'As is necessary, others
may be added.'" - TKG, Topanga Canyon, Dec. 3, 1980.
- Paul H.
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