Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

[rmd]

Dear Prabhus!
PAMHO - all glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Can someone poison God? No, never! God can absorb all the poison of the whole world and instantly change it into pure milk. Similarly, His pure devotees like the Pandavas, Prahlada Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, they can never get poisoned. In fact they can drink poison like we are drinking water. So we shouldn't be fooled that a pure devotee can be poisoned.

Prabhupada: "Prahlada Maharaja was administered poison, but it did not act. Similarly Lord Krsna and the Pandavas were administered poison and it did not act. I think in the same parampara system, that the poison administered to our Society will not act if some of our students are as good as Prahlada Maharaja. " (Letter to disciple, 2 September, 1970)

"Just like the Putana gave Krishna poison. But Putana was killed. And Krishna was never killed. Krishna cannot be killed by poison. Even Krishna's devotees are not killed by poison. Prahlada Maharaja....." (August 13, 1973, Paris)

Prabhupada: ...the body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted. It is exactly like the waters of the Ganges, which sometimes during the rainy season are full of bubbles, foam and mud. The Ganges waters do not become polluted. Those who are advanced in spiritual understanding will bathe in the Ganges without considering the condition of the water. (Upadesamrita)

Prabhupada: Regarding your first question, a pure devotee is never under the modes of nature. In other words, no material laws apply on a devotee because he is fully under the direction of Krsna. (Letter to Madhudvisa)

It has been my observance over the years that people in general don't respond even the slightest about Prabhupada being poisoned. People in general figure, well then Prabhupada was one of us, we are also exposed to poisoning: Nuclear radiation, traffic pollution, industry smog, GM food, cloth dye poisoning, bad medicines, adulterated food, nicotine, caffeine, etc., etc. So there is zero response, because they are habituated with this ongoing poisoning.  The description of Prabhupada being poisoned, a pure devotee, who is 24/7 protected by the Lord Himself does not appeal.

In sum, question is, admitted, there was criminal energy acting among the original 11 to take over the movement as new successors. If they actually bought poison from a pharmacy and put it into Prabhupada's milk at this point nobody will ever find out.
Now, even if they administered poison, according sastra poison does not act on a pure devotee. Even if a pure devotee decides to leave this world while being administered poison, it is for my humble consideration the duty of any bona fide devotee to teach that a pure devotee is not under the clutches of material nature, in other words, he is immune from being poisoned - poison does not act on a pure devotee.

Those who insist to teach to the world that our spiritual master was captured by the modes of material nature and brought to death by his own secretaries via poisoned milk should be aware that this type of preaching might eventually irreparably damage faith in Lord Krishna personally stating that, "I shall protect you. Do not fear anything." (BG 18.66)
Any idea?

[Ron P Conroy]

good post

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[John Hanton]

Those who insist to teach to the world that our spiritual master was captured by the modes of material nature and brought to death by his own secretaries via poisoned milk should be aware that this type of preaching might eventually irreparably damage faith in Lord Krishna personally stating that, "I shall protect you. Do not fear anything." (BG 18.66)

Who has ever said the above, what to speak of "insist to teach"
If there are such people, then of course they have the wrong idea.
The poison investigation has in fact proved what Prabhupada and the scriptures say, and you have nicely quoted that.
The fact is that there was enough poison in Srila Prabhupada to kill an ordinary person a hundred times over but Prabhupada left  when he chose to, not because of the poison.
If anyone is interested in the poison issue then just concentrate on what Srila Prabhupada said himself about it, then you can't go wrong.

Ys,

Jitarati das

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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 00:19:52 -0700
From: raine...@gmail.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

[Mario Pineda]

Hare Krishna. Yes. The poisoning of Srila Prabhupada is a transcendental pastime that must be understood as such in as much detail as possible. Having said that, please understand that those serving in the topic of gross violence against Srila Prabhupada are not foolish sentimentalist devotees. They are devotees that that like justice and that are willing to risk their lives, to present more and more evidence that Srila Prabhupada's closest secretaries, did try to destroy his body with poison and have been for decades now trying to destroy his siddhanta too by changing his books, exploiting people, etc.

To those of us that have some ksatrya genes, we can not help but to continue to investigate and gather evidence to show that Ravanas, as Srila Prabhupada called them, tried to destroy his body. We know he was not killed by poison. His passing is transcendental as you say.  Less so can they kill his vani. But they have tried to kill both! So some of us will not allow these Ravanas to get away, nor are we going to let any other person or entity to stop us from justice for Srila Prabhupada and his movement.

It seems to me, that there are a lot of folks out there that do not understand that those trying to poison the body and vani of Srila Prabhupada are Ravanas. Ravana dressed himself as a Sannyasi to get close to Sita to try to steal her. Of course, it was not the real Sita. But still, to give the proper example, Lord Rama and Laxman and Hanuman ji, did not compromise with Ravana and allowed that he enjoy Sita in a any way for even a moment. They became determined to kill Ravana in fact. How can Lord Rama allow even a few seconds of Ravana to enjoying Sita?  

In the same way, Ravanas as Srila Prabhupada called them, also dressed themselves as devotees to steal the worship of Srila Prabhupada. Are we in a different way than Lord rama allow for the stealing to go on? Of course not!  Followers of Srila Prabhupada that have some ksatrya genes, can not tolerate and will not drop the ball on the poison issue. The poison issue is one of the best weapons. In Vedic war, warriors wait to release the proper weapon according to time and situation. The poison issue is among the very best weapons to discredit and show the Ravanas to the whole world. To show that the bulk of the current ISKCON is built on a foundation and bases of the most evil, violent criminal acts done by Ravanas againt Srila Prabhupada. Only the worst Ravana type would try to destroy the body of a spiritual master like Srila Prabhupada via poison and then try to destroy his teachings by changing his books-philosophy, etc. The ravana based society, said in court that Srila Prabhupada was not the author of his books, but a hired "ghost" writer. therefor, they had the right to change the books as they saw fit! Who in their right mind who has a little common sense will agree with this evil argument? Somany around the world feel there should be NO compromise with these Ravana types!

The service of investigating and exposing the evidence and the suspects, is not being done whimsically. The best forensic labs in the world are being contracted. For example. Nityananda dasa prabhu, got hair of Napoleon, who is well known to have been poisoned with arsenic and had it forensically compared with the arsenic content found in Srila Prabhupada's hair. Sure enough, similar lethal amounts of arsenic were found in Srila Prabhupada's hair.How can anyone expect at least some of Srila Prabhupada's followers to just sit idle and do nothing about this most violent attack? I guarantee you, it won't happen, no matter what.

I have the experience, that when devotees and general ISKCON supporters and other regular people, when shown and educated that they tried to kill Srila Prabhupada's body and are trying to also kill his teachings, they practically at once, turn against the Ravana based society and start supporting us. Of course, we teach them that this type of attack is nothing new or part of a destructive cult. We make it clear that is part of the culture of Ravanas to try to kill, Abraham, Josh, Solomon, David, Jesus, Mohamad, Lord Krishna, Caitanya, Srila Prabhupada and other such mahajanas.

I have also noticed, that the members of the Ravana based society, if they don't turn to assist us almost at once in many cases, after they get the information, they will tend to not oppose us so much. They actually start to fell fearful. They start to say., ok, you preach and we preach with "no" offense. This is because they see our fearless determination and know that if they don't stop harassing and blocking us, we will expose in the mass media if necessary all the deviations including the poisoning. This my practical experience. But to do this, you have to be fearless and determined and do as you warned you would do. A soft sentimental approach, does not work with Ravana types. They have to see our determination and will to go ahead with our bold exposure as we warned we would do. In this way, they back down, because they know that if people find out that there is vast evidence Srila Prabhupada was poisoned  by their leaders, devotees and people in general will turn against them. Hopefully you will understand and appreciate this view.

The poison issue has helped a lot in India and it is working in other places all over the world as well. It sure helped spread the sympathy for and teachings of Jesus, although more and more people understand now that Jesus was not killed. So Lord Krishna I think is using the grossest of violence against Srila Prabhupada, to make him more famous and for people to have more sympathy for him and for people to study his teachings more.

Interpol may one day put suspects who tried to poison and kill Sirla Prabhupada's body and teachings in jail. Many followers of Srila Prabhupada think this would be a good positive thing.

So according to the propensity of service devotees have, nobody can stop those who believe in justice and are willing to do some practical service for justice for Srla Prabhupada and his movement. Others who don't want to expose directly due to different propensity, can totally neglect and not support, advocate, give donations to, eat with and visit, those who are suspects in trying to kill the body and teachings of Srila Prabhupada. They should try to understand and appreciate the great value being done for justice at great risk at time, by courageous devotees. At least, they should not get on he way and discredit the service against violence and for justice for Srila Prabhupada, as is the case in the poison issue. I hope the above helps devotees understand the value of the service of devotees that simply can not help themselves to fight for justice, due to their natural different propensity of service. I also hope these courageous devotees are supported by many as such support is badly needed. Thanks for your attention.

Sincerely,

Mahatma dasa  

  

[larry freeman p]

how many times the 'ordinary' level of poison
was found in Prabhupad's hairs?
thank you
 

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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 15:09:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted
From: serva...@gmail.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[rmd]

@Puranjana prabhu: "Prabhupada says -- there is a Ravana in his room; He says -- his only request is -- do not torture me and put me to death; He says there are people talking (whispering?) about poisoning him (and they were).
What is you actual explanation for these statements?"

Explanation is that this is confidential, private. In our lineage we are taught to not go public with things what creates confusion among people in general (e.g. rasa-lila, e.g. poisoning of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta M.). Prabhupada  would lecture in public that his spiritual master was a pure devotee always protected by the Lord. Now PADA says, wait, we have to tell all these mlecchas out there the TRUTH: Krishna did not help His pure devotee but allowed those poisoners to succeed!

Now judge for yourself what karmis do with this message? They simply use this as an excuse to go on with their karmi business and reject the Vaishnavas.
 
There are incidents where poisoners were caught while buying poison and thus the poisoning was thwarted. There are lots of examples when poison was administered and the whole thing was detected, exposed by police.

But here we have devotees who persist: No, in our case, Krishna let it all happen: Truth is that Krishna let it all happen and those criminals were never caught and the poison did its job, nobody was exposed.

Meanwhile people in India all heard this and - don't believe it. They say, this accusation is so outrageous, scandalous God would never allow such a thing to happen. So they consider Prabhupada a pure devotee who was fully protected by the Lord and was taken back by the Lord Himself in Nov 1977.
In other words, Prabhupada left by the Will of Krishna and not by violent poisoning.

Of course this does not let the legendary eleven off the hook. They might have administered poison but it did not act. This is bona fide explanation.
However, you cant go public with this complex imbroglio, karmis simply construct a totally insane conclusion.

To put Prabhupada in the same category as Lord Jesus is rather inappropriate. In his conversations Prabhupada would classify violent death as karmic reaction, e.g. Mahatma Gandhi, Kennedy, Napoleon, etc. Agreed, there were attempts to kill Krishna and His devotees but those attempts did not succeed.

ys
rmd

[rainer hahn]

@how many times the 'ordinary' level of poison was found in Prabhupad's hairs?

Objection, Your Honor! Due geological characteristics similar to other arsenic-affected areas, West Bengal has raised level of naturally occurring arsenic. "The major hypothesis is that the Himalayan river systems that feed the Ganges-Brahmaputra-Meghna delta have been carrying down sediments that are the major source of arsenic. These sediments in the form of specific minerals and in the right environmental conditions trigger the release of arsenic into the groundwater.". (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091022114321.htm)

In order to prove poisoning by hair analysis this is only possible when poisoning took place for many weeks. In other words, Prabhupada would have noticed earlier that there is something wrong.

Last but not least, sastra says, even if there is poison, it does not act in case of a pure devotee. Krishna is there and puts up His personal protective shield, Sudarshan chakra. What possibly can go wrong?

This protective shield goes even up to nuclear radiation:

"Krishna protected the Pandavs and their mother Kunti from imminent death by stopping the weapon's uncontrollable heat and radiation with His own Sudarsana disc."    (TQK Introduction)

[Nori Muster]

Hare Krishna Istagosthi, Mahatma, and all. I have followed the conversation and seen several participants say that we should not speak about Srila Prabhupada's death, and move on.

I have no idea whether the disciples around Srila Prabhupada in the last months of his life killed him, but when I hear people wishing to deny and cover it up, it makes me more suspicious. As an outside observer, I would say there is sufficient circumstantial evidence, precedent, opportunity, and motive to suspect it.

Anyways, dealing with it by simply banning any discussion would be like a mother telling her children: "Your brother might have murdered your father, but please keep quite about it because it will make people dislike our family."

If there is evidence of a terrible crime, the family has to face it. Either prove or disprove it, or at least have something intelligent to say about it other than cover-up and denial.

The family could restore its integrity, even with something like that in its history. It is not so much what happened, but how a group handles its story/history that matters.

Here at the istagosthi, I believe you all need to talk about this issue. It would be a bad idea to argue, carry on excessively, yell, call names, be passive-aggressive, or otherwise hurt one another. That type of behavior is what creates a bad example and turns people away. 

It may never be proven in a court of law, but the issue can be settled, and put to rest in the group without going into denial. Anyways, Lord Yama is the ultimate judge, so it is not our job to convict anyone, right? Our job is to witness. Our job is to restore and glorify the good name of Lord Krishna. Our job is to have a firm grasp of the true story of what happened in ISKCON. At least that's how I see it. Any feedback?

Nori

[Pratyatosa]

Any investigation that the GBC does is not going to be accepted by most people as being impartial. The case for and against must be thoroughly presented before a court of law. I wonder if a "wrongful death" lawsuit is possible.

Ys, Ptd

[John Hanton]

Hare Krishna Prabhus. Nice points Nori. The example of the brother is most appropriate.
Even in ordinary family situation, if the dying father tells his sons and daughters that it is possible he is being poisoned, would any good son or daughter not want to uncover the truth?
In the case of Srila Prabhupada, he is the one who brought it up. Does anyone think that he brought it up for nothing?
Years later a GBC investigation was conducted with Balavanta leading that investigation. It stopped when they cut off the funds.
Why did they cut the funds? Too much evidence was being uncovered. Their purpose was to cover not uncover. Balavanta was doing a good job, but the truth was not desirable. So then a campaign of propaganda to cover up the evidence discovered, ensued, and goes on to this day. If you want to be a good son or daughter and find out why Prabhupada brought it up and what Krishna's plan was, you are given a bad name and rejected from the family.
When Bhakti Caru was found outside Prabhupada's quarters in Vrindavan crying, he was asked why are you crying? His response was that Prabhupada just said he was being poisoned. Later he became part of the coverup.
The only reasons I can think of for not wanting the truth to come out is:
1-You had a part in the crime.
2-You are part of the coverup for various reasons.
3-You have no faith in the words of Srila Prabhupada.
4-You have no faith in the plan of Krishna, no matter what that may be.
There may be other reasons also.

ys
Jitarati das

---

From: norim...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 08:36:22 -0700
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Pratyatosa]

Even if those disciples who were physically close to Srila Prabhupada in late 1977 are completely innocent of any kind of poison conspiracy, they provided themselves with an obvious motive by attempting to replace him as ISKCON's Acharya. They also proved that they can't be trusted by their conspiracy to make up bogus "Prabhupada said" quotes and to hide/destroy tapes/documents. Therefore, they got what they deserve: They are prime suspects in the possible poisoning of Srila Prabhupada!

Ys, Ptd

[rmd]

@"Your brother might have murdered your father, but please keep quiet about it because it will make people dislike our family."

Thanks Nori for bringing up this question!
There are now dozens of websites which state that - Prabhupada, a pure Vaishnava, maha-bhagavat, God's direct representative, was killed by raticide.

They even construct a new thesis: The poisoning of Srila Prabhupada is a
transcendental pastime (lila).

Basically their only "evidence" that God's direct representative was executed by the modes of material nature is - Lord Jesus. They claim to be experts of Christian theology and declare that Lord Jesus was killed by violence and therefore - conclusio - same happened to Prabhupada.

Only problem, Christians believe that crucification was pre-ordained beforehand as part of a divine plan in which Jesus had to suffer and die as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all conditioned souls.

In Christian mysticism there is no such thing as God being helpless to protect His most dear devotee. Superficially there is impression that Jesus faced unnatural or violent death but this is a curtain for unbelievers. The actual understanding is that Jesus never died. "Then, after eight days (John 20:26) Jesus appeared to all the disciples."

To conclude that a mahabhagavata like Srila Prabhupada faces a violent death because Lord Jesus faced a violent death rather proves that there is no understanding of Christian theology (non-Christian upbringing).  

Fact is this whole poison issue ends when Prabhupada states he feels being poisoned. However, to construct that Prabhupada left his body by being poisoned and not by the Will of Krishna is rather speculation.

Knowledge acquired by direct perception is not real knowledge. Vedic injunction is sastra-caksusa: "You must be seeing everything through the sastra, not with your eyes."

To put on that Prabhupada was killed because Lord Jesus also was killed is rather foolish. Besides, Lord Jesus went into a state where he neutralized all earthling's sins and came back after eight days. Whereas this scenario of Prabhupada's violent death is simply to kill his body by violence like a karmic reaction. Since a pure devotee has a spiritual body how this can happen? So this is all foolish proposal.

Those who seriously consider that all people worship Srila Prabhupada as current link of Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya-Sampradaya should rather stick to sastra and tell their facebook friends that Prabhupada, Krishna's direct representative is immune from being poisoned and went back to Godhead by Krishna's internal energy.

ys

rmd      

[Ron P Conroy]

Jai Prabhu, the stopping of funding for Balavanta prabhu's investigation does not seem to be a good reason for Balavanta to stop investigating since i think so many devotee's would have contributed to finish his investigation. no ?

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 5:03 PM, John Hanton <hanto...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Pratyatosa]

The GBC's cutting off the funding obviously meant that he was not to continue the investigation. If you want to be a member of ISKCON in good standing, then you have to follow the orders of the GBC.

Ys, Ptd

[Ron P Conroy]

Lord Jesus Christ is Different !   He knew what was to happen and he stayed anyway, just as Maharaj Pariikt knew the curse and stayed . He did not even notice that his body was poisoned because he was 100% absorbed in Krsna. 

[Ron P Conroy]

It is important not to throw out the baby with the dirty bath water. Some of us are 100% in agreement that the book changing on going episode is most heinious, and that the 1st 11 guru's did a tremendous dis service to ISKCON. At the same time some of us are working closely with iskcon

in various ways, we are seeing new bhakta's made continuously along with many books distributed and new book distributors are also be made .It is not a black and white situation.  We should see transendental good where there is good and not just think it is all bad. 

              We heard from Jahnava dd how Ladoya dd went up to Dravida's mic in Alachua after he asked for questions a couple months ago, and she stood in front of him pointing out about 5 points about not changing anything in Srila Prabhupada's books, All Valid Points, then she turned , went to Srila Prabhada's murti, offered obeisances, and walked out..    Jai Ladoya prabhu..

                 Three devotee's will be initiated at Camp Garuda in a few weeks ..

[Diane Chan]

Hare Krishna

Dear Sudarshan Prabhu, obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your email. I haven't come across this before. I don't keep up with facebook, and this Madhavananda has certainly never tried to contact me personally. It's not like I have to answer him anything. I'm the one who has put up the Reward offer of $108,000 to anyone who can show proof that Srila Prabhupada appointed him as guru. That was what ticked Gour Govinda's followers off. And to date they haven't collected the money.

I don't know if Madhavananda is the person I'm thinking of - maybe it's another. But Madhavananda's version of what happened is somewhat different from what I recall. It has been many years since, but I do remember clearly that meeting with Gour Govinda Swami.

However, before that meeting took place, three devotees - and maybe Madhavananda was one of them - came to a Sunday feast programme we were having at our place in Singapore off MacPherson Road. I had met the one I'm thinking could be Madhavananda in his apartment in KL. The class was not even finished, and this person challenged that ritvik initiation is unbonafide. He claimed that their Gurudev, Gour Govinda Swami, had been ordered in a letter to become the successor Acharya for the Hare Krishna movement. I asked him how he could be sure of that, and he said that his Gurudev had revealed to his confidential devotees, including himself. Talk about audacity. He actually said that Gour Govinda Swami had a letter from Srila Prabhupada authorizing him to become the successor Acharya of ISKCON! Naturally I asked him if he had seen the letter. He said it was good enough for him to have heard about it from his Gurudev, and the letter was a secret that must not be revealed. None of them had seen the letter.  He tried to continue to challenge that ritvik initiation is bogus, but I didn't want to engage. It was our Sunday feast programme, and there were members of the public in attendance. It just was not the right time and place for it. I could not accept his so-called evidence sight unseen, and he was not prepared to accept our arguments and evidence (letter of July 9th, 1977), so what could we possibly agree on? I said to him that there was no point to continue to talk, but bring the letter. He behaved very unreasonably, and persisted in shouting, till I told him to his face that it was not his place, and he could not speak in this way. Finally he said okay, when Gour Govinda Swami came, he would bring that letter and show me.

Three or four months later, I was in Yogjakarta, Indonesia, just coming off the plane and walking on the tarmac to the terminal, and happened to see Gour Govinda Swami walking the other direction, towards the plane. He was walking with two or three other disciples, all of them wearing devotional clothing. He was then on his way to Jakarta. And from Jakarta, apparently, he flew into Singapore. I came back to Singapore a day later, and then I heard from Thiru (the 'devotee lawyer') that Gour Govinda Swami was going to be at Senan's house, giving darshan. Thiru said to me, "You'd better get your money out, get ready to pay Gour Govinda Swami the $108,000." He called me in the late afternoon, and the meeting was that evening.

So three of us went: Thiru, the 'devotee lawyer' (he was a law student at the time), Vrindaranya and myself. I brought my cheque book. We arrived at Senan's house before Maharaja came downstairs. At last he came downstairs, and his disciples did a foot-washing ceremony. They sang "Ohe Vaishnava Thakur, and some other bhajans, glorifying him as the Vaishnava Thakur. I couldn't tell you who all was there. Madhavananda, or whoever that devotee was who came to our place, did not come greet me, and I don't remember seeing him there. He probably was there, but I didn't notice. He says I appeared nervous, but I remember being confident that I was going to find out the truth right then and there. I was there for one reason only, to learn from Gour Govinda Swami if he had a letter of appointment from Srila Prabhupada. Admittedly, I was not interested in hearing anything else from Maharaja. The devotees there knew who I was, and were in all likelihood guarded against whatever I might speak, and I figured they might even forcibly remove me from the room before I could get the words out. I gave Thiru a  piece of paper with some questions on it, and requested him to ask the questions, and he did.

He asked, "Maharaja, you have received a letter from Srila Prabhupada ordering you to become Acharya of ISKCON, so why did you not act on it? Why did you wait almost 20 years for ISKCON to appoint you as a guru?"

The room fell quiet.

Again Thiru tried to ask, "Did Srila Prabhupada appoint you to act as guru?"

Gour Govinda Swami did appear to be taken aback by this line of questioning. He asked, "What's talking? What's he talking?"

Thiru tried again, "Maharaja, did you receive a letter from Srila Prabhupada?"

Again the question was deflected.

At which point I spoke up - yes, rather loudly - and said, "He's asking you, is it true that you received a letter from Srila Prabhupada personally to act as the Acharya?"

Gour Govinda still said, "What are you talking?"

So I put it shorter, "Did you receive an order from Srila Prabhupada to become the Acharya?"

Yet again he asked, "What talking?"

That really pissed me off. It was unbelievable. I was embarrassed for him that he was pretending not to understand what we were asking.

Again I asked, "Have you been ordered to become the Acharya?"

He still refused to answer. He said again, "What you talking?"

I burst out, "Just simply answer yes or no. Maharaja, have you been ordered to become the Acharya?"

That's when he replied, "No order." He put his head down, and repeated, "No order." His head went down even lower, and his face was beet red. He said for the third time, "No order."

No one dared to speak. You could slice the air, it was like jelly. No one knew how to react. The silence dragged on for 5 to 10 minutes. Finally, with his head down, Maharaja told them, "Do bhajan." Then the devotees softly sang. He sat there. We sat for another five or ten minutes, and then we left. To me, they were defeated. Nothing further to say. Thiru, Vrindaranya and I left. No one dared to approach us or accost us. There was no other discussion or questions. The discussion Madhavananda alludes to is a fabrication. None of the disciples came up to us and said even one word further.

As to who was sincere or not... I'm sure Gour Govinda's disciples were mortally offended by my confrontational approach, but they were hardly standing on the platform of truth. To this day, I don't know whether Gour Govinda Swami himself ever made such a claim to his disciples, or whether his disciples invented it. If it was their own invention, then they have to take the responsibility for risking their Gurudev's humiliation. They came to me with untruth, and after I exposed it, Madhavananda says I was insincere.

We heard that Gour Govinda Swami passed away in India around a week later. His disciples have their own story of that pastime, and so does ISKCON. Who knows what's what? But from that meeting at Senan's house, we have not heard from his devotees. None of them have contacted me.

As for the $108,000 Reward, it still stands. I spent about a million US dollars on the BBT court case. What is $108,000 to lose? Of course I knew then and now there is nothing to lose. To this day, no one inside or outside ISKCON has come to claim it.

I hope this clears up the matter. Once or twice some years ago I thought maybe to write about this incident, but let it go. Now that you've brought it to my attention the rubbish that Madhavananda has written, I think others should know what happened so they won't be taken in by lies.

Are you the same Sudarshan from Singapore? - Your servant, Bhima das

On Apr 6, 2014, at 10:39 PM, Sudarshan Das wrote:

On Sunday, 6 April 2014, 20:09, Jai Simman R. Rangasamy <rjsi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I came across this on Facebook ...

A Remembrance of Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja by Madhavananda Das

In October of 1994 I had the good fortune of being in Singapore with some godbrothers and my spiritual master Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja. During that visit we attended an evening program that our Guru Maharaja gave at the temple managed by Sundar Gopal Das.

Afterwards I rode back in Senan’s car to his home where we were staying along with Guru Maharaja. There were a couple of other devotees in the car that I didn’t know. On the way, Senan suddenly introduced me to one of the passengers, saying that he was a lawyer and a ṛtvik. He then told the devotee something like, “Madhavananda will set you straight”.

Hearing that, this devotee lawyer then turned and started enthusiastically speaking some of his ṛtvik ideas to me. I listened politely for a while, and finally told him that I saw that he was sincere and I would like to accept his ideas.

However, I said, “There are a few things that I consider to be true that keep me from believing what you are saying. If you could refute those points then I could accept your idea.

He asked me what those three things were.

I replied, “First of all, I’m convinced that if someone were fully qualified, Srila Prabhupada would want them to be a regular guru. That qualification can be whatever standard you want to designate — be it that one is a pure devotee; that they have kṛṣṇa-prema; or that they have descended from the spiritual world on the order of Krishna to come here to preach etc, etc. If you can convince me that is not true then I may accept your points.”

He was quiet for a moment, and then said, “What is the next point?”

I continued, “Secondly, I’m convinced that Srila Prabhupada did not fail. That he must have at least one disciple who by Prabhupada’s potency is qualified to be guru. If you can convince me that Srila Prabhupada failed in this matter, then I may accept your point.”

Again, he was quiet for a moment, then he said, “What is the third point?”

I said, “I’m convinced that what Srila Prabhupada writes in his purport to Bhāgavatam 9.13.11 is correct. I then read out from my notes: “Prabhupada says, ‘The Supreme Personality of Godhead can be seen or unseen according to his own transcendental desire; similarly, a devotee, being jīvan-mukta, can be seen or not, as he chooses.’ Based on that”, I continued, “I’m convinced that we would not be able to see who is a qualified guru and who is not. Only if they reveal themselves to us can we recognize them.

I appreciate that you are sincere and I would like to accept your ideas. However, I’m convinced that these three points are true. If you can show me that they are not true, then I will be able to accept your conception.”

He was quiet for the rest of the ride.

The next day, at Senan’s house, a group of us were sitting as our Guru Maharaja began singing before his class. Suddenly my ṛtvik friend from the night before came into the room accompanied by a devotee named Bhima Das whom I knew as a leader amongst the ṛtvik devotees in Singapore. During the class, Bhima seemed nervous. He clearly was not listening to the lecture, and was shuffling through some papers he had brought with him. When the lecture was over his hand shot up and he loudly spoke, “Maharaja, what do you say about Srila Prabhupada’s instruction that after his departure the initiations should be ṛtvik ceremonies done on Prabhupada’s behalf?”

Like a simple child, Guru Maharaja looked a little confused as though he didn’t understand the question, especially as it had nothing to do with the talk he had just finished giving. Guru Maharaja then looked to me in a puzzled manner.

Wanting to be as neutral as I could so that the devotees could get the benefit of some exchange with our Guru Maharaja, I said, “Gurudeva, They are suggesting that Srila Prabhupada wanted a ṛtvik system of initiations after his departure.”

Again, like a simple child, Guru Maharaja shook his head and said very simply, “No, no. The GBC body does not accept that.”

At that point Bhima interrupted and started speaking even louder than before addressing our Guru Maharaja in a very challenging way. Unable to contain myself, I spoke up over his voice and said, “Gurudeva, they are not very sincere. They just want to argue. Last night I put forward three points to them that they were not able to refute. They are just coming here to argue.”

Things got a bit more intense at that point, Bhima turned to me and we started quarreling. Without showing any interest in our dispute our Guru Maharaja peacefully got up and with the help of his servant Chaitanya Chandra Prabhu went upstairs to his room.

I followed them up the steps with Bhima close behind me. When we got to the top, Guru Maharaja went into his room and Bhima and I continued our argument. Chaitanya Chandra Prabhu came to me after a few minutes and urged me to calm down and stop the quarrel, but I was too disturbed to do so.

Finally, I turned to Bhima and said, “Bhima, why are we quarrelling? I really don’t see much difference between us. You are taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada through Hamsadutta Prabhu (Bhima’s ṛtvik guru), and I’m taking shelter of Srila Prabhupada through my Guru Maharaja. The only difference I can see is that I consider my Guru Maharaja to be qualified, while you consider Hamsadutta to be unqualified. Other than that what is the difference between us.”

Hearing this comment, Bhima’s eyes squinted and his face turned bright red.

We then went downstairs where we continued our heated discussion. I told Bhima, “Your man could not answer my three questions, so why are you coming here and quarreling?”

He got out a pen and some paper, and said, “What are those questions?”

I related them to him, while he wrote them down. I gave him my email address and Bhima told me, “I will contact you right away with some answers.”

It’s been 20 years now since that exchange and I still haven’t heard back from Bhima.

[Ron P Conroy]

The snake bird disguised as brahman bit Maharaj Paraikit as cursed and the poison took its deadly effect but Maharaj Parikit was oblivious to it, not because he was drugged but because he was 100% absorbed in Krsna. As Srila Prabhupada would point out, when one is fully absorbed in krsna consciousness , then there is no more room for maya to enter .Even Hiranyakasipu transcended his physical miseries while executing austerities mean't for material gain, what to speak of a pure devotee fully abosorbed in Krsna. Srila Prabhupada also gave the example of the cup filled with milk .  

[rainer hahn]

@"The snake bird disguised as brahman bit Maharaj Paraikit as cursed and the poison took its deadly effect"

Right, King Pariksit offended a brahmana and although given a chance to have the curse canceled insisted to accept that punishment. 

Over at PADA it says, summarized, plz correct if something is missing, Prabhupada is a pure devotee but his credentials were not sufficient in order to receive full protection by the Lord or to neutralize the attack with his own protective shield. The poison took its deadly effect and strangled Prabhupada to death. Then it says, any other version is rejected vehemently because it would exculpate TKG&co from being charged with murder.

In other words, that in order to not grant TKG&co extenuating circumstances, there has to be stated that Prabhupada was not protected by Krishna's Sudarshana chakra but choked to death by rat poison.

And in order to have at one point a confession of those suspected persons, poison issue has to be broadcast into every household.

What about this approach, since sastra says a pure devotee cannot be killed, Prabhupada instead was taken back by Krishna Himself and did not die because Krishna refused to protect him?

Then PADA would still have all legal means for charge TKG&co with murder because of the kaviraja testifying symptom of poisoning.
 

At the same time people in general would get the message that a pure devotee cannot be poisoned and would glorify Prabhupada as a great Vaishnava in the category of the Pandavas and Prahlada Maharaja who would received full protection from the Lord when being faced with poisoning.

Thanks for any suggestion!     

[Padmagarbha Das]

If my recollection of the interview of H.H. Puri Maharaja, conducted by Siddhanta dasa for his "Memories of Srila Prabhupada" series, if it serves me correctly [it's been many years since I saw it],  Puri Maharaja stated that he told Srila Prabhupada,  "you should stay with us for at least ten more years".  Srila Prabhupada's reply was something like, "How can I", and Srila Prabhupada then held up his arm asking Puri Maharaja to "feel" his pulse.  And Maharaja then states that there was "NO" pulse.

NO pulse means NO heart beat!  And I took [take] that as meaning that Srila Prabhupada's body was already "dead".  But, just as Grandfather Bhisma, whose body  had been pierced  ["killed"]  by many hundreds of arrows, remained within his body to continue his lila; and only "departing" at his choosing. Also similar to the pastime of Srila Haridasa Thakura, in whose case the soldiers had done everything to beat him to death, yet Haridasa Thakura did not leave his body until he felt "compassion" for his most distressed executioners. So Srila Prabhupada's body also had been "killed", by poisoning, but Srila Prabhupada did not "depart" until he chose to do so!

I do not believe that there ever will, or should be a "legal" conclusion via a karmi court of law.  Should this issue go to trial, an exhuming, for the purpose of conclusive forensic evidence, of Srila Prabhupada's body would be a real possibility [at least in the Western legal system it would be], and I certainly do not believe that any of us should in any way want that to be an option!

Srila Prabhupada told us that he was being poisoned, and that is all the proof his followers should need.

Srila Prabhupada also had told us that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had been poisoned; yet Srila Prabhupada, in spite of all the "means" available to him, spiritual as well as material,  he directed no effort to bring to justice the person[s] responsible.

There is no doubt in my mind, had somebody given Srila Prabhupada the choice of either the "poisoning" [killing] of his vani [his body], or the "poisoning" [adulteration]  of his vapu [his teachings], he would have pleaded in favor of the "killing" his body, but not to "distort, adulterate, or edit" his teachings and his instructions.  Srila Prabhupada knew that the manifestation of his "physical" lila was to be limited to at most around one hundred years, but that his teachings, his instructions, his books were to be the philosophical "gold standard" for the next ten thousand years.

So, rather for us to continue  pushing  for  "legal justice", and the conviction of those responsible for the poisoning of Srila Prabhupada's vani, [ the outcome of which, absent outright confessions, can not be guaranteed, especially considering the elapsed time, as well as the passing of the primary suspect, Tamal Krsna] we rather should continue putting all efforts into the propagation of Srila Prabhupada's unadulterated and unedited teachings and instructions, particularly on the subject of 'guru tattva', while at the same time exposing those responsible for poisoning Srila Prabhupada's vapu, past and present!  And the evidence of who is guilty of the latter that is not at all very difficult to proof.     pg

[Nori Muster]

Dear Istagosthi,

Thank you for hearing me out, an ex-iskconite not even initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and as the zonal guru Hridayananda once notoriously cried out on the corner of Watseka and Venice: "The worst thing about this [ISKCON World Review] newspaper is that it is written by a woman." Here I am writing to you all again.

I thank you for your kind words, despite being a second generation disciple and a woman, as well as an outsider to the situation, having never seen Srila Prabhupada in person. However, I have one request. If we are to have a realistic discussion about the mysterious death of Srila Prabhupada, I move that we rule out the argument that Prabhupada should have been invincible to poison.

That is a lot to ask of any man, even a saint or avatar. 

Let's have a rational argument, not go off into la la land.

Nori

[larry freeman p]

another 'big' (phony) guru responds to being 'outed'

 

---

Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 10:32:44 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Setting the record straight on a meeting with Gour Govinda Swami
From: padmaga...@gmail.com
To:

[Ron P Conroy]

is this letter from Diane Chan or Bhima das ?

who spent 1 million US on BBT court case and why ?

[Mario Pineda]

Rmd. You obviously do not believe that all of Srila Prabhupaada's pastimes including his passing, are transcendental or spiritual. The difference between you and thousands of Prabhupadanugas, is that we do believe all his pastimes are totally transcendental, but not for all to understand them as such. You are obviously a good example of the non believers. You have free will to believe in that way, although your view does not make sense to thousands, perhaps million of us. Jai Srila Prabhupada!

Mahatma dasa

[Diane Chan]

Author of the post is Bhima das, submitted here by myself, das devi dasi. BBT International brought a lawsuit against Bhima das in Singapore, alleging copyright infringement. The case dragged on for several years, until it became clear that BBT International could not show proof of copyright ownership. They abruptly withdrew the lawsuit in Singapore, then turned around and sued Hansadutta in California. BBT International and ISKCON of California, Inc both sought court declaration that Srila Prabhupada's BBT was null and void, did not own the copyrights to Srila Prabhupada's books, and that Hansadutta was never a legal trustee. Bhima das funded defense in both cases. 

[Mario Pineda]

Signed by Bhima dasa. It is a little confusing, but not so important. He spent that money so Srila Prabhupada's orogonal books may be printed. You did not know that? I know, because I got certified copies of the ISKCON and BBT corporation papers to get the legal case going. The BBT and ISKCON representatives argued that Srila Prabhupada was not the author of the books, that he was just a hired "ghost" writer. Therefor, they felt they had the right to change his books! Well, we have the right to print the original books!! :)

Jai most victorious Srila Prabhupada!!!

Mahatma dasa

 

[Mario Pineda]

Thanks Diane. I am the first to honor the Srila Prabhupada system of initiation after his passing, on May 22nd 1986, the day Sulocan dasa was murdered in Los Angeles. I am doing service in South America, although my base is Los Angeles county CA.I want to start food for education there no later than the summer of 2015. Organizing also the first international Prabhupadanuga convention in Alachua,Florida for more unity and cooperative spirit among us. This will start Appril 17th 2015 in Alachua Florida.  Planning to visit with my wife, Fiji, Singapore, New Zealand, Malasya, India etc starting at the end of this summer. Where are you and Bhima dasa located presently? Jai to all victorious Srila Prabhupada!!

Mahatma dasa

[rmd]

Dear Mahatma prabhu,

nowadays there is again a huge wall of silence so thanks for your reply. Till now I never heard any Prabhupadanugas stating that poison issue is a "totally transcendental lila". This is for the first time I hear this!

However, since you state that this whole forum supports it - lila - Krishna's internal energy, then let's look at this. The very term lila implies that a lila fully takes place under the direction of the Supreme Lord and not under the modes of the material energy. In other words, Krishna Himself took Prabhupada back to Goloka Vrindavan, not some rodenticide poison!

Great, this is progress! Since presently at PADA and many other websites it still says, in a nutshell,  Prabhupada killed like a rat with poison, the poison could act like anything, Krishna was hiding and refused to help His dear most devotee...

So this has to be changed, from now on it should read, poison does not act on a pure devotee, a pure devotee is always protected by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the whole thing was a lila conducted by the potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Besides, sastra says, anybody who states that a pure devotee can be killed via poison is a resident of hell, a naraki.

One who sees a Vaisnava guru as an ordinary human being, if somebody thinks that, "This man is ordinary person," so "he's naraki", naraki, a resident of hell. (SB10, Birth of Lord Krishna, 10.3.46)

The body of a great devotee is not  cremated because it is considered spiritual. Spiritual body means it is not under the dictation of the material energy. Thats why sastra instructs that a devotee cannot be poisoned, is immune.

Prabhupada: "Prahlada Maharaja was administered poison, but it did not act.

Similarly Lord Krsna and the Pandavas were administered poison and it did not act." (Letter to disciple, 2 September, 1970)

Somehow nowadays Prabhupada's instruction fall on deaf ears and people consider that in order to push their agenda, Prabhupada is considered as
conditioned soul prone to be violently killed without the protection of the Lord's armed forces.

Prabhupada left because Krishna directed it like that, lila. Not because he was forced by the modes of material energy. This type of info causes chaos among
people in general who totally reject the path of bhakti once and for all. People in general conclude that a pure devotee is captured by the material energy and was not protected by Krishna.

This type of information is misleading and not in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu who says that the fully surrendered soul who has no material  possessions on which to depend if fully protected by the Lord.

Again thanks for establishing that a pure devotee is fully under the dictation of the Lord's internal potency, lila!

ys

rmd

[Nori Muster]

Write back to langone

con...@norimuster.com

Sent from my iPad

[Ron P Conroy]

they only killed the body of Lord Jesus , He re appeared shortly after and was recognized by his disciples . Grandfather Bhisma maintained his wounded body to speak for 3 days 

[Ron P Conroy]

Pralad Maharaj was definitely invincible to poison and any other means his father devised to kill his body. Actually it is more than a mysterious subject . Examples of pure devotee's bodies being destroyed or not destroyed both exist.

[rainer hahn]

Prabhupada: In this material world there are dangers at every step, but they are not meant for devotees who have fully surrendered unto the lotus feet of the Lord. The pure devotees of Lord Vishnu may rest assured of the Lord's protection, and as long as they are in this material world they should fully engage in devotional service...(SB6.3.18)

Therefore one is strictly forbidden to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih). (SB7.7.14)

Puranjana prabhu: I never said Prabhupada was killed with poison!

[Nori Muster]

The survivors of ISKCON (us people) need to settle it for ourselves. 

I am at least one person who was traumatized, mostly because he died a few weeks before I could have had a chance to someday see him in person.

[Nori Muster]

Comments >----scroll down---->

On Apr 6, 2014, at 11:30 PM, rmd wrote:

@"Your brother might have murdered your father, but please keep quiet about it because it will make people dislike our family."

Thanks Nori for bringing up this question!
There are now dozens of websites which state that - Prabhupada, a pure Vaishnava, maha-bhagavat, God's direct representative, was killed by raticide.

well, the Internet is full of bullies and trolls

we have little control over what they may say

They even construct a new thesis: The poisoning of Srila Prabhupada is a
transcendental pastime (lila).

we, as mere humans, are not to say what is lila and what happens by karma, or the modes

maybe hundreds of years in retrospect, but usually not while the thing is happening

it is like trying to pick up vibrations outside of the spectrum our senses can perceive

we may never solve the question of whether Srila Prabhupada was "meant" to die that way or not

however, the question we are trying to discuss is whether disciples killed him

Basically their only "evidence" that God's direct representative was executed by the modes of material nature is - Lord Jesus. They claim to be experts of Christian theology and declare that Lord Jesus was killed by violence and therefore - conclusio - same happened to Prabhupada.

the situation of Jesus and SP was very different / Jesus was killed by the government of Rome, SP was allegedly killed by a subset of his closest disciples

Only problem, Christians believe that crucification was pre-ordained beforehand as part of a divine plan in which Jesus had to suffer and die as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all conditioned souls.

If you stand up to dictators, they might hang you.

The British were quite good at that kind of thing too. My ISKCON husband Dave Schiller's ancestors were in the siege of Edinburgh Castle in the 1500s. When the castle surrendered, the British soldiers went in and got James and John Mossman and hung them on the market cross. I went to Edinburgh with Dave in 1994 and saw the market cross, the castle, and the Knox house his family owned before the siege. We took a tour of the house and found the plaques that told the whole story. The Mossmans were goldsmiths, who were loyal followers of Mary Queen of Scotts. Oh, and the British cut off their arms and legs before hanging them. Unlike what happened to Jesus, the British made sure their victims died on the cross.

In Christian mysticism there is no such thing as God being helpless to protect His most dear devotee. Superficially there is impression that Jesus faced unnatural or violent death but this is a curtain for unbelievers. The actual understanding is that Jesus never died. "Then, after eight days (John 20:26) Jesus appeared to all the disciples."

I dunno, if you have a thousand Christian mystics, you will find a thousand points where they disagree.

You cannot project this interpretation on them, or say "there is no such thing as . . . " because some Bible scholar will have a long (overly long winded) explanation for why you are wrong. Believe me, people have studied Christianity to a pulp.

To conclude that a mahabhagavata like Srila Prabhupada faces a violent death because Lord Jesus faced a violent death rather proves that there is no understanding of Christian theology (non-Christian upbringing).  

The two situations are not similar in any way, really.

SP's death may be more analogous to: 

Gautama Buddha

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

other spiritual leaders allegedly murdered by their disciples

Fact is this whole poison issue ends when Prabhupada states he feels being poisoned. However, to construct that Prabhupada left his body by being poisoned and not by the Will of Krishna is rather speculation.

Maybe it was Lord Krishna's will to bring Srila Prabhupada back to him in November 1977. Maybe it was Prabhupda's "lila" to die by poison. We may never really know. It is pointless to argue about that, anyway. 

Knowledge acquired by direct perception is not real knowledge. Vedic injunction is sastra-caksusa: "You must be seeing everything through the sastra, not with your eyes."

To put on that Prabhupada was killed because Lord Jesus also was killed is rather foolish. Besides, Lord Jesus went into a state where he neutralized all earthling's sins and came back after eight days. Whereas this scenario of Prabhupada's violent death is simply to kill his body by violence like a karmic reaction. Since a pure devotee has a spiritual body how this can happen? So this is all foolish proposal.

The only sane way to have a conversation about the subject is to decide this question of "lila" is a moot point. It may or may not be, but it doesn't make any difference. It's moot.

[Nori Muster]

Funny, but I remember when that happened. Wasn't it in the late 1990s?

I think he gave in.

[Nori Muster]

In other words, are are saying that if Srila Prabhupada was poisoned and died, too bad.

He should have been a little bit more like Maharaj Pariksit and not died from the poison.

[Nori Muster]

I believe that Srila Prabhupada is with Krishna. He was with Krishna when he was here, so it only seems reasonable that he is with Krishna on the other side of the veil, as well.

But again, all the after life issues, and arguments over karma, fate, lila, and all that, is beside the point.

The question is, did disciples murder this guru?

[Nori Muster]

They could only believe in Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual father if they could feed him poison and he would not die?

[Nori Muster]

I see it as a moot point.

The only question is, did someone poison Srila Prabhupada?

[larry freeman p]

of course,  it is well documented that Prabhupad was poisoned;
as seen on film, even.
Mahatma said that the amount of poison in Prabhupad's hair(s),
was over 2 and 1/2 times the lethal dosage amount; (not 100s);
As far as Christians go; it is not being claimed Prabhupad 'resurrected'.
Prabhupad had indicated He wanted to keep 'teaching' a few more years.
 

---

From: norim...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 16:06:35 -0700
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Pratyatosa]

According to <http://www.iskcon.org.au/notpoisoned/scientific/hair%20analysis.htm>, "Hair Analysis Shows No Signs [of] Poisoning." This tends to explain why Nityananda Prabhu switched his theory for how Srila Prabhupada was poisoned from arsenic to cadmium, a poison which was not previously tested for.

Ys, Ptd

[rainer hahn]

@The only question

There is of course always a chance that devotees want to see things with their own eyes. Just like there are pilgrims visiting Bhalka Tirth, the place where Krishna was killed by a hunter.

The Mahabharata narrates the story of a hunter who kills Krishna. The hunter Jara, mistook Krishna's partly visible left foot for that of a deer, and shot an arrow, wounding and killing him mortally. After he realized the mistake, Krishna told Jara, "O Jara, you were Vali in your previous birth, killed by myself as Rama in Treta-yuga. Here you had a chance to even it and since all acts in this world are done as desired by me, you need not worry for this". Then Krishna ascended back to his eternal abode, Goloka Vrindavan.

According to Puranic sources, Krishna's disappearance marks the end of Dvapara Yuga and the start of Kali Yuga, which is dated to February 17/18, 3102 BCE. Vaishnava teachers such as Ramanujacarya and Gaudiya Vaishnavas held the view that the body of Krishna is completely spiritual and never decays as this appears to be the perspective of the Bhagavata Purana.

However, in order to make it right for everybody Krishna also creates the version that He was killed like an ordinary human being. In this way everything is complete and perfect, everybody gets the understanding they require to live jubilantly and peacefully - and they lived happily ever after.....

Same here, there are obviously devotees who want to wear a t-shirt which says: THE TRUTH: PRABHUPADA WAS POISONED

[larry freeman p]

so,
if legally,
Prabhupad's 'body' is exhumed;
what do you expect to find?
 

---

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 18:30:56 +0200

Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

From: raine...@gmail.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Mario Pineda]

I am sure that if Srila Prabhupada's body was exhumed, we would find that he was given poison. This does not make him and his passing not totally transcendental to those that have studied the siddanta about a personality such as Srila Prabhupada and have experienced the love from Srila Prabhupada.

There may be no need of exhumation. There is enough circumstantial and forensic evidence. The attorneys in India sold out to the corrupt ISKCON, but it is not over till it s over. Many of us are dedicated to solve this. Leadership in India and the rest of the world. We now have more nails and hair to study forensically. Witnesses are less afraid and starting to talk to us!! :)

Jai most victorious Srila Prabhupada!!

Mahatma dasa 

[Labangalatika Dasi]

There is so much evidence that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned but if one dares to openly say this he will be thrown out of devotee association
 
they are so a determined to shut up   any mention  and bury the facts. As long as this is covered up there can be no Krsna conciousness. Its a farce. 
why speculate that Srila Prabhupafa as a pure drvoteee couldnt die from poison. He had accepted so may thousand s of sinful disciples to take them  back home to Godhead he did not care about the danger to himself/ Anyway he was always with Krsna  even though apparently and clear for anyone to see his body was being destroyed by arsenic poisoning  All glories to Srila Prabhupad the purest of all devotees, most dear to Lord Krishna  who gave up everything to come and get us wretches  out of maya  at the cost of his own life.

[rainer hahn]

"I am sure that if Srila Prabhupada's body was exhumed, we would find that he was given poison. This does not make him and his passing not totally transcendental to those that have studied the siddanta about a personality such as Srila Prabhupada and have experienced the love from Srila Prabhupada."

It should be clear that going public with this information is rather a tricky situation for conditioned souls - those who are not liberated from the clutches of material energy?

Already people in general figure that Hare Krishnas is a finished religion, their Western temples taken over by Hindus who perform their private family tradition rituals on Sundays. A few former ISKCON matajis occasionally dropping in to kick those who are already lying on the floor?

All those preaching strategies like INTELLIGENT DESIGN (http://www.intelligentdesign.org/), LIFE COMES FROM LIFE, GROW YOUR OWN FOOD, SIMPLE LIVING, COW PROTECTION, VEDIC FARM LIFE, either stolen by Christian groups who successfully run it, or, given up all together.

Today US has ten million millionaires and world's first most billionaires live in US too. The rich is richer than ever, yet, is is there anybody supporting Vaishnvaism? Nope, zero!

Prabhupada's program was to invite famous people and have them support the cause of spreading Krishna consciousness.

Yet Puranjana prabhu reports that nowadays money is donated from India to help constructing a Prabhupada temple in California.

So it should be clear that Western reputation of Vaishnavism is dead at present moment?

As Hansadutta pr recently said, all girlie men, someone has to bang his fist on the table and lay down the law.

Hopefully this will happen soon! US is where Prabhupada started, the country upon which all others glance at! Any idea?

[Mario Pineda]

Rainer. My experience is totally different than yours. We just went to South America for 4 days. We would sleep only 3 hours, attend morning programs, preaching programs, chant all our rounds and we spent a lot of money too.1,2,300 people would listen to us with rapt attention. They want we serve with them!

 Last night I was on the phone talking and texting at 1 am and got up for he morning program with other like minded devotees. Lots of plans, association, practical service, lots of investment of laxmi. Looking at many acres of land to build yet another millions of dollars temple for Srila Prabhupada. We are having a  reunion next year, so all kinds of devotees may serve Srila Prabhupada closer together, with more service attitude and cooperative spirit!! All accommodations an Prasada will be free to all! We will pick you up at the airport. It will be an incredible 6 days in a most beautiful setting with lots of brothers and sisters empowering each other to serve and please Srila Prabhupada!

21 temples and and  9 GBCs for Srila Prabhupada in India alone. Hundreds of Prabhupadanugasin Costa Rica, Bali, New Zealand, Singapore, Malasya, New York, etc, etc. Maybe you are looking in the wrong direction! Jai all vistorious Srila Prabhuppad!!

Mahatma dasa

[larry freeman p]

Many religions have genuine leaders whose bodies were 'killed';
but, KRSNA protects His PURE devotees,
who all realize they were not their bodies.
So, Prabhupad was realized;
realizing He was not His body.
So, KRSNA's protection was He was clear:
He was not His body;
no matter what was 'happening' to it.
 

 

---

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 04:00:06 -0700
From: rslma...@gmail.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

[Hansadutta Das]

Ram Mphan Prabhu, obeisanes, all glories to Srila prabhupada. It's not good for you to communicate with  these devotees who are forever finding some failt. especially people like Puranjam, Prabhupada used to say " These are two kins of animals, Flies and Bees,- the flies will always go to the stool, the bees will always go to the Honey, yuou will never find bees gpoing to Stool , similarly flies do not go to  the honey.

 Prabhupada also said, no one has to go to school  to learn to laugh or learn to cry, similarly whn the time comes, every boy and girl knows what to do for sex, it's not a subject for  school, reading or writing, everyone knows. 

KRSNA and everything necessary to get KRSNA is all we ar ( As human beings ) meant to learn. It this is learned, everything is understood.

I never learned anything I had no ambition to  be anything , I hated school ( I  Still do )  I never went to school, still, when I read and  heard from Prtabhupada, everything was automatically understood..... how to preach, how to cook, how to sing, dance, make money, translate and print, and distribute books, recruit devotees, manage . open centers.

 I Meet John Lennon, George  Harrison, and many other ( Nick Nolte, Kate Bosworth, Om Puri etc.. )  big celebrities , even had Hit Record in the phillipines . I managed to generate Tons of money for Prabhupada's book publishing.     Spoke at Harvard University, Mc Gill University, Berkeley University, Radio TV etc..... 

Don't waste your time with these " Root bound " devotees. If you keep a patterd plant in ther same pot for all the time, at some point the roots  having no place to expand, begin  to go round and round in the same pat, but the plant never gets any bigger, it remains stunted " Root bound " similarly, if you put a two inch koi fish in a small fishbowl at home , it will never grow bigger, the same fish,  if you throw it into a lake ( Which I used to do every week, up at Mt. Kailash in California , it will grow to be  fpur ( 4' feet )  feet long, and very happy . 

Everyone is now an institutional bureaucrat , they have memorized all the rules, regulations, formulas  and most of all... the short comings of people like me. When I suggested to Urdhvaga to change the name to " THE BHAKTIVEDAANTAS " ultimately he   could only remember that 37 years ago some devotees were calling me Hari Kirtan Thakur. He could not remember anything else of my seven year service to the German yatra.

Similarly Vedas Vyasa's book is  a subtle deliberate work  where he tactfully ( But Obviously ) condescends and belittles, and insinuates my  disqualifications.... rightly or wrongly. Indirectly, this is a criticism of Srila Prabhupada, who ordered me to go there, stay there and was perfectly aware of everything about my personal qualifications and efforts to serve him.

the whole movement is now in the grip of neophyte -  jealous, and envious  Bureaucrat like , so called devotees.  They will never change, they will never  do anything but shore up their pitiful self centered profile.

All you have to do is Take a walk, talk to  people, just to regain your bearings, no need for big plans, no need to criticise others, no need for money, everythinbg you need is in your heart, be  satisfied in your own heart and mind. Brahma Bhuta Prasann atma..........  let KRSNA and Prabhupada flow into your heart and mind, let  yourself be led by the Lord, By Praabhupada, find some like minded devotee, or make some devotee with whom you caan talk of Praabhupada and KRSNA.....let ISKCON go, you will find no shelter , no life, no Joy ....no nothinbg there, oit is all in your heart, not in this endless 'CHEWING THE CHEWED  " you can do , you are more and better than this//// thinlk about it. Be happy with yout own KRSNA consciousness  Be -  Atma-rama..... self satisfied.

Your humble, old Godbrother, Hansadutta das ... P.S. Please send me Chakravartie's e mail and telephone Number if you can / Hrimati Devi dasi Visited me  last year , I sang a little with the guitar, it was nice to see her. Ravanari is in Mayapur, but more or less invalid from stroke . 

I always like him, he has done a lot oiof Arabic translation work. So many great roopers / Sankirtan men , My heart if full of 

[rainer hahn]

Dear Hansadutta Prabhu, obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thanks for your input! This is not what it looks like, things are pretty much under control.
This forum is expertly moderated by HG Pratyatosa prabhu who also runs causelessmercy.com.
But you're right, there are now some devotees who definitely need a good spanking.

Prabhupada instructed that Vaishnava shows up in beggar's dress.

Now some devotees figure to gain recognition as "conspiracy researcher".

Thats why people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Alice Walton, Larry Ellison, Sheldon Adelson won't donate.

Prabhupada, February 27, 1972: "If I tell him the truth, he'll not give me a farthing.
Therefore we take this beggar's dress."

Gaukishor pr departed yesterday so this is good occasion to phone Chakravarti (0049 6120 90 41 07

or 0049 6120 97 22 13, chakrava...@pamho.net, Frankfurt is 9 hours ahead of Los Angeles)

ys

Rammohan das

[Mario Pineda]

Yes. Protection means protection of the real guru, or his vani-teachings. That is the real identity of the guru. No body is protected. All original bodies are destroyed, or at least go away from our vision. "Protection" of the material body is not the philosophy of the true spiritual master, it is the philosophy of the material "masters" who say we can only go to Krishna if we accept their material bodies!!!

Jai all glorious Srila Prabhupada!!

MD 

[tim lee]

Srila Prabhupada says he is being given poison, the people in the room all agreed he said that, there are also people whispering about poisoning him,  that's really the issue here. Thees are not my statements? You are blaming the messenger. ys pd

Dear Puranjana dasa, while you as usual enjoy criticizing and condemning these people at Iskcon, over at Prabhupadanuga istagosthi forum which is moderated by Pratyatosa dasa, Hansadutta has condemned you as an insect, a stool fly which enjoys eating from stool. 

[PADA: Right, well that is how people like Hansadutta get people like us killed, he says we are "flies in stools" who are wrong to protest the molester messiahs program. In fact in 1986 Hansadutta sent all his people to New Vrndavana to worship Kirtanananda, when KS was covered with the hands of 50 boys. Are you saying that Hansadutta was right at that time to declare "Kirtanananda is the purest devotee on the planet" just after Sulochan had been murdered? The good news is that just after Hansadutta moved all the Berkeley devotees to New Vrndavana, the place was raided by the police and they arrested some of Hansadutta's crooks as well. The bad news is, that after Hansadutta moved 100 people out of the Berkeley temple, and left maybe only 10 people there, the place has never recovered, there is still only maybe 15 people there ever since, and the temple and deity worship are a giant problem because Hansadutta moved out all the servants of the deity. Are you saying that we are flies to criticize murders, moving away all the poojaris and so on? As usual! Not sure your point here Wyatt! We should have all followed Hansadutta and promoted the worship of molesters and murderers as our messiahs, and "the purest devotees on the planet"? We were wrong to resist? Wyatt, seriously, we are wrong to protest molesters and murderers being worshiped as good as God? Is that your point? ys pd]

[Hansadutta Das]

Dear Rammohan Prabhu, Obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.  OK ... I understand..

What do you mean, Gourkishore DEPARTED yesterday, do you mean he left his body ? or he left from your association to some other place ?? P;ease let me know.

Your humble servant,

Hansadutta das

P.S. Where are you living  ?? What's the story on Sachinandan Swami and What about Prithu ?? what is the story on him ? , can you send a few pictures of The German deities that I brought there from Paris ??

[tim lee]

krishna1008: Hansadutta das Writes about PADA

			krishna1008: Hansadutta das Writes about PADA From HANSADUTTA DAS: Dear **** Prabhu, obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. It's not good for you to communicate with these devotees w...
			View on krishna1008.blogspo...	Preview by Yahoo

 

On Friday, April 11, 2014 8:05 AM, Mario Pineda <serva...@gmail.com> wrote:

[tim lee]

I think the web site Harekrsna.org has done its job as an expose site. I'd like to see it converted to a positive web site with all  sorts of entire books, lectures and positive Krishna materials from Srila Prabhupada direct, and make it a positive preaching site for the public. If anyone is interested in this project, let me know. ys pd   

[Nori Muster]

Dear Puranjana, let's all try to get along. Hansadutta may be one of the few among us who could actually offer insights into this subject. He was on the short list of eleven gurus that Tamal Krishna drew up, and I am guessing that those eleven men know stuff we don't know. 

The first time I heard the poison theory was from Naranarayan the artist in L.A., who was hanging around on Watseka just around the time my book came out, 1997. Before that I never would have imagined such a thing. Many people came and left ISKCON without ever hearing about it. But now that it's out, let's bring it all the way out in the open. And to do that, we need to raise the discussion to a transcendental level. The bad things that are done are done. I am sure we all did stupid things in ISKCON that we regret. Also, much abuse took place. Maybe now, twenty-five years later, we can all discuss it. I can tell you one of my dark secrets is that I embezzled money sometimes to print the ISKCON World Review. It was not exactly embezzlement, but let's just say we sometimes traded advertising for money if we could get our hands on it. I can go into more detail about that, and have talked it all out with a counselor. I bear personal responsibility, of course, but having a role model like Ramesvara didn't help. He and some of the other gurus just cut a lot of ethical corners, we could say. From what I remember, if you had power in ISKCON, you probably learned to abuse it. 

Given the situation, and given that the main aleged ringleader of the murder conspiracy is dead, I think it is a good time for all of us to unload some of that ISKCON crime burden we share. (Not all of you on this blog took part in crime, but I did, and many on my level did. I can assure you that is not just some wild conspiracy theory. Almost all the people in the leadership were cutting corners.)

What do ya say, Puranjana? Please stop beating up on poor old Hansadutta. We all did bad stuff. I am convinced that it was the system that was corrupt. Just like when you join a street gang, they get you to do something dishonest, to prevent you from leaving the group. When I was in the ISKCON Public Affairs office, I could lie and look innocent. I know what that feels like. Plus, I had scoliosis, and my psychological and ethical spine was also twisted. I try hard to be honest now, just because doing dishonest things makes me feel like I am back in ISKCON.

Anyways, I have rambled on long enough, but please we need to stop squabbling with each other, just here, at leas.

Nori

[Nori Muster]

On the question of exhumation, I believe the only way that could happen would be if it was part of a healing, where everyone wanted it to be done.

There is no use in fighting over this or using it to threaten each other, or driving a further wedge between the insiders and outsiders, or whatever.

More fighting would just make things worse.

Someday, if there is ever a consensus, I believe that Srila Prabhupada could be moved.

I heard that he wanted to be in samadhi in Mayapur, off on the land in a peaceful spot. He did not want to be on display at the front door of a temple. Maybe someday he will move, and if that happens, we will see what we find. However, there may be nothing to find. He could have been killed simply with sugar, since he was diabetic. Or, if it was ground glass, it might be impossible to detect because it would be lost in the dust. If it was arsenic, it might be consistent with the natural levels in the area, so it would not prove anything.

To resolve the issue, we need to resolve it amongst ourselves, in our minds and hearts. 

If it is true, it would be sad.

good post

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[Nori Muster]

Dear Hansadutta and Istagosthi members, the discussion has been going well, even with the usual friction and disagreements. My overall sense from reading all your emails is that the disciples may very well have shortened Srila Prabhupada's earthly existence. However, when we go to talk about it, everyone runs off in a hundred different directions: denial, defensive, philosophical, angry, embarrassed, etc. 

My sense is that many of you would consider it just another P.R. embarrassment for the lineage if he was murdered, and therefore it must be kept quiet. In other words if he was murdered, it would reflect on him as a failure. Most of the feedback has centered on Srila Prabhupada's eternal status, assuring each ourselves that he is with Krishna, and that if he was murdered, it must be an incomprehensible lila.

But we could get to the heart of the matter better if we set those issues aside. I am positive that Srila Prabhupada is with Lord Krishna right now, as he always has been, and whatever happened did happen for a cosmic reason we cannot understand. Therefore, I strongly encourage all of you to put that issue to rest. There is still much to discuss, but that whole area of discussion, we can consider settled. 

Also, I ask all of you to set aside your stereotypes of each other. As an outsider (explained in detail previously), there is none among you that I dislike. Only people I know too well get on my nerves, like people who call me on the phone too much, etc. Even then it's not like I dislike them, I just wish I could say stop calling me. 

All of you have been very polite and considerate, and because of the stature of people gathered here, I think we can make some progress.

Anyways, for example, Puranjana and I have often disagreed about things. But because we have a professional relationship as fellow biographers of ISKCON, we have always gotten along well. I wish that we could all bring the conversation to a level of sophistication that includes equality, openness, and the willingness to hear everyone's ideas.

Nori

[Nori Muster]

Further feedback from me >----scroll down----->

On Apr 10, 2014, at 12:36 AM, rainer hahn wrote:

"I am sure that if Srila Prabhupada's body was exhumed, we would find that he was given poison. This does not make him and his passing not totally transcendental to those that have studied the siddanta about a personality such as Srila Prabhupada and have experienced the love from Srila Prabhupada."

It should be clear that going public with this information is rather a tricky situation for conditioned souls - those who are not liberated from the clutches of material energy?

yeah, they are not even liberated from the material energy and they can see right through you already

Already people in general figure that Hare Krishnas is a finished religion, their Western temples taken over by Hindus who perform their private family tradition rituals on Sundays. A few former ISKCON matajis occasionally dropping in to kick those who are already lying on the floor?

actually, people are much more sympathetic to ISKCON than you think

as the author of that book, I have spoken to hundreds, if not thousands of people about their attitudes toward ISKCON

All those preaching strategies like INTELLIGENT DESIGN (http://www.intelligentdesign.org/), LIFE COMES FROM LIFE, GROW YOUR OWN FOOD, SIMPLE LIVING, COW PROTECTION, VEDIC FARM LIFE, either stolen by Christian groups who successfully run it, or, given up all together.

Today US has ten million millionaires and world's first most billionaires live in US too. The rich is richer than ever, yet, is is there anybody supporting Vaishnvaism? Nope, zero!

That's a little more off the subject of Srila Prabhupada's mysterious death. I guess people should give more to support good causes, but the larger problem is the widening gap between rich and poor. The last half of the twentieth century was the most prosperous time in America, and that was partly because a large portion of the population was doing well. We developed a widespread, thriving middle class. In the twenty-first century so far it has gotten more polarized, so either you are lighting your cigars with hundred dollar bills, or you are shuttering in fear that you might get kicked out of your apartment. Much of America is living on the edge, but all this is way off the subject.

[tim lee]

The problem is that Hansadutta has dragged his feet on every issue we ever brought up, until, ok he is with us only when the gates are closing anyway. He is still saying we are flies on stools, never mind that gets people like us killed, ok that means he never understood what he put people like me and Sulochana through, what to speak of the kulis, people who died of cancer like Tribhuv, the public who got turned off with his antics, and so forth. He is still advertising himself as the kirtana thakura, that means he does not understand at all the mayhem, suffering and total burning of the Berkeley temple to ashes etc that he has created. 

He is living in a fantasy world that he is some sort of thakura, its totally annoying. He deserves to have his history reviewed since, his still saying we are flies in stools which means, he is not repentant, he still thinks he was authorized to brand us as flies and rascals, which got us killed. And his policy would have got me killed except the police saved me. He has not got it, or else he would not talk about us like that, nor would he de facto say the poison issue is for flies. 

That is way over the line, at least for me. When the three goondas came to get me in Berkeley, two of them were his disciples, the police saw them chasing me down the street and saved me, i.e. Hansadutta would have had me assassinated if not for the police doing undercover surveillance on me. He has never come clean on all this, its very annoying for us victims. ys pd   

[Mario Pineda]

There may be very sophisticated equipment to see arsenic with no need to exhume a body. We are looking into this.

MD

[rainer hahn]

Dear Hansadutta Prabhu, Obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada

It says,

Dear Nandalal Prabhu

Please accept my obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Just now Akrura Prabhu called me that Gaura Kishore Prabhu had left his body
today at 5:10 p.m. while Akrura Prabhu read to him from the eighth chapter
of Bhagavad -gita.

Gaur Kishore Prabhu (Georg Zobel, born 19.06.1951 in Bremerhaven, Germany)
lay in a hospice in Voelklingen with terminal liver cancer since the
beginning of March 2014.

Gaur Kishore Prabhu was the best book distributor in the Hamburg Temple in
the early Seventies, and was responsible for the production and publication
of Srila Prabhupada's books in German language later in Schloss Rettershof,
around 1975.

Gaur Kishore Prabhu lived in Voelklingen near Akrura Prabhu during his last
year of life.

Akrura, his wife Vichitra and Akhila Prabhu regularly visited him in the
hospice. He frequently phoned Acchedya Prabhu, Vaidyanath Prabhu and other
devotees. A visit by representatives of the ISKCON National Council of
Germany was scheduled for early May 2014. Many devotees have prayed that
this pioneer of Srila Prabhupada's would not forget Krishna during the last
months of his life.

The funeral is taken care of by Gaura Kishore's family members.

Your servant
Vaidyanath Das

Urdhvaga pr says that he has a Prabhupadanuga temple in Frankfurt they surely know more whats up in Germany?

So far there is kind of gag order whats going on there behind the scene.

GBC resolution 2014 says that Ravindra-svarupa pr resigned as GBC for Germany, Switzerland, Austria. This means this post

is presently vacant, why not have Hansadutta pr do this job?

They say Prithu is now pujari in Simhacalan, Bavarian Forest (http://www.simhachalam.de/index.php?id=88). Sacinandana Swami is
constantly travelling (http://www.sacinandanaswami.com/), Asia, Australia, USA, South America, Africa.  

ys

Rammohan das

PS  Pic of Radha-Madan-Mohan attached

  

[rainer hahn]

Hansadutta also went through most difficult situation,  we shouldnt strangle the Prabhupadanuga process over some friendly fire at this point. Meanwhile you all know, these leaders Prabhupada would recruit were kind of tough guys, otherwise why ISKCON could spread all over the world? These folks are still crowd puller whereas we are whining rank&file. Of course there should be etiquette. However try to understand, folks like Gurukripa, Hansadutta, are hard-boiled person, lots what is say sounds heavy to wake you up but is rather in good fun. We shouldn't be oversensitive, whingeing. Lets first of all have bona fide GBC and temples, farms, vedic village all over. 

[rainer hahn]

Nori says: Srila Prabhupada's mysterious death...............

Dear Nori,

first thing plz dont rip a text apart putting isolated statements on dissecting table separately.

This is meanwhile among others a  well-known strategy to confuse online discussion and I wonder why

you apply this technique here?
Although posted already and read by you, you simply seem to ignore:
Vaishnava teachers as Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya established the view that the body of Krishna is
completely spiritual and never decays as this is clearly the perspective of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Same with a pure devotee, his/her body is spiritual and never subject to the modes of material  nature.

As Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita (9.11) you are of course  free to make your own decision - you can believe whatever you like.

However, official version of Gaudiya-Vaishnavism is that  the body of Krishna and His pure devotee is completely spiritual and
never subjected to modes of material energy. ysrmd

[Hansadutta Das]

Dear Rammohan Prabhu, obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. I did not know Gourkishore was with cancer. Over the years he would  sometime call  me on the phone, last time was about a year ago, we spoke and Akrura also spoke. If was very happy and enlivening.,. we joked and laughed like in years gone by. They promised to send some Marzipan.... I wondered why it never arrived here. Now I know.

He was very quiet and humble, you also were quiet, simple, humble. i am weeping as the flow of memories passed through my heart and mind. Just yesterday I was hearing a take, prabhupada was saying " Even if a devotee does not remember KRSNA at the time of death.... KRSNA remembers  ... " Oh ! this devotee has done so much service for me.... " So a devotee is never lost, never vanquished. 

 KRSNA says ... In that proportion as one surrenders unto me, I reveal myself to him . and again,  even if one commits the most abominable sinful act, if one is rightly resolved to me, he is  to be considered saintly " . Once some devotee was lamenting and distraught over some faut he has done... Prabhupada assured this devotee , saying " We are so tiny , we cannot actually do anything very good, or very bad "  ....HMnnnnn ........ I found this  very reassuring. I notice Gourkishore Prabhu was born  19.6.1951 in Bemehaven, that means he was almost 63 Years old. 

I was born in May 1941, in Braunshweig, ( Brunswick )  so I am 10 years older than him, how old are You, whatis your birth day ?? Just asking - curious.

 You did not say where you stay ????

Thank you for the picture of Radha Madan Mohan..... Did  I relate the story of how They ( Radha Modan Mohan z) came to Germany from Paris ???

No ! I would not want the Job of managing GBC In Germany, or anywhere else in the world. I can still sing and speak, also cook, but I would never accept a management engagement again .  

Actually in 1976, while in Charge of Vrindaban Temple complex, Praabhupada told me one day, after Gopal Krsna swami became  disappointed that Prabhupada neglected to make him the GBC of Vrindaban, instead  giving the engagement to me "  ACTUALLY YOU SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MANAGEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION, YOU SHOULD JUST  TRAVEL AND PREACH AND DO KIRTAN ALL OVER THE WORLD . "   But after Srila Prabhupada disappeared, the GBC decided I must go to Berkeley and take charge of the North west American zone. I tried  very hard to avoid this, recounting to my God brothers  what Praabhupada told me in   Vrindaban, but it fell on deaf ears... the rest is history. I consider it my fault, I disobeyed  Srila Prabhupada's advice, and against my better judgement conceded to the pressure  of my GBC God brothers , Reluctantly I went to Berkeley, and  was ultimately overwhelmed by the  situation there, the womens party, Jiva Das  -  etc..... it was a disaster Zone before my arrival, and a mistake on my part to attempt to manage it. 

Regarding my remark about flies and bees ( Stool and Honey )..... it is not my remark, it is what we have heard from Srila Prabhupada, it's not  my remark, the author of this observation is Srila Prabhupada. ` Other than that, ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada's Property, his creation, and meant an institution to attract the public to KRSNA and educate them in ther process of Devotional service. The constant drumming  of - magnified, - sensationalised  and inaccurate   accounts of Srila Prabhupadas disciples short commings  is  not a practice that he or other previous Acharyas encouraged in their preaching missions. 

Everyone passed stool, some more some less. It is said a small animal passes small stool, a big animal ( Elephant,- rhinoceros, a  bull etc. ) passes      

 a big stool. who does not pass stool ?  So, is that the focal point of a persons activety ? No,  Bhagavatam says " It is the qualification of a great man to overlook the faults of others and Greatly magnify that which is good ". 

If a disciple of Srila Prabhupada  is always recounting the stool  side of devotees activities, it may be better  for him to open a public rest room and earn some money for KRSNA in that way. Why mix up the two... The temple's function = Honey / with the rest room's function = stool ? ......" I'm  Just sayin. "  .... you know...... You're  still chewing on those  bones from - 35 plus some -years ago. What's  wrong with you ?  Are  You' constipated - always talking  of  others  S__t.... you need to move your own s---t .- find a rest room and relive yourself, and get back to the HONEY, get with the Bees,  The Devotees , taste the honey, make some honey..... give it up, get happy, Chant hare Krishna.... be happy.... remember, that was Prabhupada's   simple  buzz word for the world -  CHANT and BE HAPPY................. Like  " Coke - It's the real thing " ................ " Chant and Be happy" .....it really is the real thing.

Your Humble servant

Hansadutta das

P.S. This post is not an attempt to dismiss  or whitewash my past nefarious activities , I admit and accept responsibility for them. I have on the other hand ( With the help of Bhima and Das  in Singapore - Malaysia ) spent more than a Million dollars over past years fighting with ISKCON and BBT - Intern. to re-establish Prabhupada's original BBT and Original books, I have printed the Original 30 Volume set of Bhagavatam, 10.000 copies, Printed a one Volume edition ( Bible paper ) of the entire Srimad Bhagavtam, along with the first bible paper Vinyl covered Bhagavd Gita as it is...... 

My former wife (  Lakshmi and Radharani DD )  and other  Children Maintain a functioning Vedic Farm  environment milking cows, ( For Los Angeles temple, and San Jose  temple ,  sent twice a week by Fed ex ) ..... Why do you not see this. One of the few Devotees in all America who is actually doing gthe Farm Cow Protection Program, as per Prabhupada's instructions .  Why cant you see the Bees and the HONEY they make. >????  Besides cows, there are goats, horses, catss, dogs, Chickens ( They eat the bugs ) Fruit trees, Tons of roses and other flowers, all the residents there are Krsna Conscious, although not initiated, still they Hari Bol, hare Krishna and eat prasadam / why not illuminate this side ?? Just askin.......

Your wife Iswari DD came to my place in Cloverdale Ca ( While was not there ) . and she immediately started photographing everything like an FBI or CIA agent, making remarks about how I stole the life size deities from Mt. Kailash, and they should be taken from me and put in some temple. Rude and obnoxious of her, to say the least. These deities were given to me by Advaita das ( Who sold the farm illegally and used the money for his personal real estate adventure in Badger ) ........" I'm just sayin  " she  does not know the facts, and appears to have the same bad habits that you have, half truths, and malicious exaggerated , stories and fantasies bordering on Psychosis. Prabhupada used to say " A businessman sees money everywhere he goers, he calculates the value of the environment in terms of profit and loss.. You seem to see every one's faults, every one's stools.....  what does that  make you ? It certainly doesn't make you a Bee Keeper looking for honey. 

It would make you a Bunghi as they say in India . A Bunghi..... 

[Ron P Conroy]

PS i very recently heard from an associate of Tribuvanath prabhu, that another of the original 11 had Tribuvanath blackballed/banned, for collecting from Hindu's for his preaching programs. So much so that Tribuvanath left. This action of Bhagavan was the exact opposite of preaching and pleasing Srila Prabhupada.  The mentality is dispicable. 

[Ron P Conroy]

to make it brief , personally Krsna and Srila Prabhupada can excuse the original 11 but i won't . By their, "i'm on an equal level as Srila Prabhpada" stance, they drove away 90% of their god brothers and sisters, thats aside from legal crimes they committed . My wife was in the Berkely temple and says that 90% devotee's left, including her, who very mistakenly donated $15,000 to him. He says it went for books. She could use that to pay off student loan. Aside from that the 2 ladies parties collected lots $ for him . They did not care as long as they had "their" disciples . They basically destroyed the hare krsna movement in the publics eyes and for 90% devotee's. That i'm on equal level with Srila Prabhupada attitude has taken 35 years to dissipate but still hasen't !

I used to look up to him as a writer and good Srila Prabhupada disciple. 

The second major stab wound was and is the changed books which, who, supports. .    

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:34 PM, tim lee <ange...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Nori Muster]

Dear Rammohan Das,

Hare Krishna. Please forgive me for typing inside the letter. I was unaware that it would bother you, or that you would consider it offensive. Please forgive me. 

Your letter made many points and I wanted to reply to each point.

Anyways, Srila Prabhupada was certainly not subject to the modes of material nature. That is not at issue here. That question is settled. He was beyond the modes of nature. If he did die from poison, then it must have been a lila.

However, lila or not, it would help us here, who were left behind, to solve this mystery.

There is no question about Srila Prabhupada's status as a liberated soul, but there is a question of why he died. It was mysterious, since he did not have cancer, he did not have heart problems. No cause of death was ever given.

But if we could talk about it a little bit, at least we could move the conversation forward.

Nori

[Nori Muster]

To reply briefly, there is such a thing as not forgiving, but still not hating.

I can tell you with all honest that I do not forgive my ISKCON guru. It will take me a long time to even get to thinking about doing that. In the meantime, I have neutral, reserved feelings toward him, and pity, not hate. 

[rainer hahn]

Dear Hansadutta Prabhu, obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thanks for your encouraging words!

There seems presently still huge accumulated needs to understand Vaishnava
perspective concerning the transcendental nature of a pure devotee. Some devotees state that there are clear indications that Prabhupada seems to be subject to the limitations of material nature. They argue that all of Prabhupada's endeavor to establish the world wide Sankirtan movement seem to indicate limitations, although many occasions  also show that Prabhupada was not subject to any limitations because everywhere he went temples got started. Sastra also states that a pure devotee is fully directed by the Supreme Lord and thus connected with Krishna's unlimited powerhouse.

"A Vaisnava knows his own business; whatever he does is precisely right because he is always guided by the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

(SB9.4.68)

As personal witness, what is your understanding when devotees state following:

Puranjana Dasa: Therefore Prabhupada accepted the murdering as the will of Krishna by forgiving his poisoners just as JESUS CHRIST did: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Jesus' words from the cross, asking forgiveness for those who put him to death.

In other words, Puranjana believes that at one point Prabhupada realized that TKG&co want to kill him and when he became aware of this he didn't protest but silently accepted to be poisoned. At first Prabhupada would be astonished about getting poisoned and made some remark as if seeking for help. But then at one point he would surrender and silently accept the poisoning without objecting.

Then Puranjana proceeds that just like Lord Jesus got famous by accepting a violent death with a forgiving attitude, Prabhupada will also get famous on the basis of him being violently poisoned without any protest from his side. In sum, at one point Prabhupada would keep silent and just accept, although he could have told assembled disciples what's going on. But he would refrain....

So Puranjana concludes that this is the key of successfully establishing Prabhupada as current link of Krishna's parampara, to aggressively spread the poisoning of Prabhupada in every newspaper as "transcendental lila".

Since you were also there when Prabhupada left, what is your understanding?

ys

Rammohan das

   

[Nori Muster]

Dear Rammohan Das and Istagosthi,

From everything I have read, seen, and heard about the alleged murder of Srila Prabhupada since 1995, Rammohan's letter below rings true for me. Srila Prabhuapda realized midway thorough the process of being murdered that TKG and his conspirators were trying to poison him. Why they had to do it so slowly, prolonging the agony for everyone, including Srila Prabhupada, we may never know. However, it seems plausible that when they were trying to kill him, SP realized it, and forgave them. Then he died.

If this could be confirmed (the main conspirator being already dead), then we would have to conclude that if our guru could forgive them, then we must also learn to live with it somehow.

Here it is, nearly thirty-seven years hence. We have fought and fought, and worried and fought about this for all these years. Finally, we arrive at the doorstep of acceptance, where we say in one voice: "Yes, a half-dozen disciples conspired with TKG to kill our guru. However, since our guru could forgive them, we must also make peace with it."

It will be difficult for us to find peace under these circumstances, since we are just mere jivas. However, I believe this is the answer.

And yes, most of the other conspirators are still living, some still with power in ISKCON. Thus, it becomes a matter of "who knew what, and when did they know it."

However, since we can probably all concede that TKG was the main instigator, and he is dead, we need to coax the  lesser conspirators out of their skeleton-filled closets to confirm our worst fears.

Once the true story can be told, then maybe the fractures in ISKCON can heal.

If this is what happened, and this is the crux of the matter, it will take some of us a long, long time to come to terms with it, and accept what happened, and reach a stage of acceptance and forgiveness like Srila Prabhupada did. If he was able to accept his own murder and forgive the perpetrators, then that is what we must do too.

But to get to the point of healing and acceptance, we still need to know the truth. 

What is the truth? The truth can heal. We need to know. There are people still living, who took part, who can confirm the truth for us, and we must at this time ask them to come forward.

Nori

[larry freeman p]

why did Tamal poison Prabhupad('s body)?
 
Thomas Herzog was born a chosen leader,
and helped Prabhupad fulfill His Mission:
distributing millions of books.
for which Tamal was given much laxmi, followers, 'service', etc.
BUT, like most devotees, (including those nearest to Prabhupad),
was never 'introduced' to GOD/KRSNA.
So, he never knew GOD/KRSNA;
never really knew it was 'true'.
After years of 'bringing' in millions of dollars,
Tamal was burnt out,  'following'; but not 'knowing' (KRSNA);
He at that point both loved Prabhupad;
but, was angry that he was not 'shown' KRSNA.
So, from his perspective,  he had risen to be the dominant devotee,
in ISKCON, and simply wanted to 'take over';
as in a 'normal' corporate take over.
('poisoning' Prabhupad's body; but, not really 'touching' the Pure Devotee).
In his mind, he was 'chosen' to lead.
 

---

From: norim...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 09:34:43 -0700
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Padmagarbha Das]

Once Srila Prabhupada was asked, "Why have the Jewish people suffered so much throughout history?"

And Prabhupada replied, "Because they have killed a pure devotee of the Lord, Lord Jesus Christ".

And,  while on the cross Jesus did say, "Father forgive them as they do not know what they are doing".

So it appears that Jesus forgave his killers, and perhaps so did Srila Prabhupada, but that obviously  does not mean that Lord Krsna forgives those who kill His pure devotee.!  Nor does it mean that we should forgive those who poisoned Srila Prabhupada.  

If in our "mundane" family life one of our brothers would have "slowly tortured" our [his] father to death, I am certain we would and should find it impossible to forgive such an act.  Even IF our father, due to his naturally unconditional love for 'all' of his children, had forgiven his murderous son.            pg

[Ron P Conroy]

why would people be so stupid ? when their guru was already at an elderly physical age .what is the rush ?   and all the learning about karma and killing mean't nothing. ? this does not make much sense . 

[rainer hahn]

Satyahit prabhu: why would people be so stupid ?

Dear Prabhus - pamho, all glories to Srila Prabhupada

Hansadutta pr is very busy at present moment, he just mailed this message for all of us (full reply is attached to this post):

[...]

Anyone ( like Puranjan ) can say anything, right or wrong, without
presenting evidence, and there are no consequences. Not only Puranjan
but anyone, whatever one may say, right or wrong .... there no
consequences. Therefore  there will never be any action taken on any issue.  So it is useless, it is a Caffee Klatch.  You know the Germans
are fond of "die Kaffee Stube" (coffee bar)..... old ladies go there, sit
around, drink coffee and eat pastries and " KUCHEN ".  Show off their
latest dress or hat.... jewlery..... Actually the whole internet is
like that Kaffee Klatching (coffee gossip) for different groups... politicals,
economists, socialists, survivalists, .. on and on.... no result.

Let's just consider Puranjan, he has no authority from Prabhupada to
do what he is doing. He never had any responsible service while
Prabhupada was here, he was not a Sankirtan, book distributor, he has
opened no temple ever, he has probably never recruited a single devotee.
[...]
Now lets just take a few points made by Puranjan...."Jesus Christ was killed...."

In 1969 Prabhupada read, "The Aquarian Gospel of Lord Jesus Christ" by Levi which was a popular book of that time, purported to be recieved by revelation to the author Levi. I also read this book because
Prabhupada read it.

His comment was, "I was very happy and relieved that Lord Jesus Christ did not die on the Cross as is popularly understood, I was always puzzled by the gruesome death of Jesus described in the Bible because according to vedic literature a Great soul cannot meet with such a gruesome death. So I am very much relieved to read in this book, that Jesus did not die on the cross, but was taken by some of his followers and healed, and subsequently traveled to Kashmir and died there in old age.

In this book ( perhaps you have read it? ) it describes Jesus going to Jagannath Puri, he observes the worship of Jagannath deities, but disapproves of it. Prabhupada commented, "Jesus could not understand deity worship."  Tamal asked him if Jesus was a pure devotee, Prabhupada said he was not a pure devotee, nevertheless, he was a Saktyavesa Avatara, and we accept him as a great soul, as our Guru. These things are not to be repeated in public.

Aside from this Prabhupada never said, "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta,  my
Guru Maharaja was poisoned." He always said, "It was said or it was
suspected, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was poisoned ".... also being in Vrindaban.

I came there at the beginning of October 1977, from Sri Lanka.
Although I was singing for Prabhupada every day for hours till the last day - 6 hours sitting on the bed with him, I never heard Prabhupada say,  "I am being poisoned, or someone has given me poison".
He did say after the Makaradwaja Ayur Vedic medicine was given to him, and it reacted  unfavorably, or too strongly - "It (the Makaradwaja medicine) is acting like poison".  When Tamal Krishna then asked  if Prabhupada said he was being poisoned, Prabhupada replied, "No ! It is not that I am being poisoned, but the medicine is acting like poison". 

I can only tell you what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears.... I don't  say what other have said.... I don't speculate, and I don't believe Pabhupada was poisoned deliberately and knowingly by any devotee.

Since I don't know Hindi or Bengali, I would not know if Prabhupada
made any other statement in regards to poison..... so I can't comment
on that. I personally do not believe Prabhupada was poisoned
deliberately by Tamal Krsna or any other devotee.

What I do think could possibly have happened is that, Adikesava swami, (his father supposedly was in the CIA )  who was sent to pick up Makaradwaja medicine from Delhi, from one Brahmacari das, (not sure if this is his name). This person was a political wanna be in the circle of Indira Gandhi, later on he was imprisoned for some kind of fraud, and
possibly before this incident also. 

So, I think it is possible that Adikeseva Swami collected this medicine from this man's hand, and brought it to Vrindaban, the medicine was defective, or someone deliberately (political circle ??)  added poison.

VNN published an article on their site years ago, if you go to the Archives it may still be there, I came across it last year, or the year before by
going to VNN Archives, it is written by  Kavicandra Swami - I think, I
could be wrong, but I specifically remember he was situated in Japan,
an old Radha Damodar bus devotee. This document is very important, and struck me as the most plausible explanation of what might have
happened.

Years ago I came across a book written by a Swedish professor, he
gave scientific evidence of how Napoleon was poisoned by one french
member of his staff on Devil's Island.

Arsenic was injected into bottles of Napoleon's favorite wine, through the cork, his conclusive scientific evidence shows that, by testing the hair of Napoleon it can be determined to the day, each time arsenic was administered, by coroberating with the diary of his staff who would note any changes in health and other notable happenings.

So if you ( Prabhupadanugas ) are serious this is the way to scientifically establish how, and when and maybe who and why. But it is very late in the game, I don't know if any hair remains from that time.

Back to my main point every fool, speculator, without actual facts and authority from Prabhupada, is jumping on the stage blurting out half truths, no truths, or fanatical sentiments and knots in the heart, the result is endless speculation, but most of all INACTION.... no one has, in all these years, done anything to legally establish that Prabhupada was poisoned.

If it is not established in acourt of law, then it is just rumors, speculation, conspiracy,,,,nothing, it's nothing. Devotees are simply making themselves look foolish by not doing things completely and in the standard way.

Anyway, I sent you a note forwarded from Das to you. I got into modifying it and adding, this is the result.

 
Your humble servant,

Hansadutta das

[Nori Muster]

You're right, it may be more difficult for us to forgive perpetrators who allegedly killed Srila Prabhupada.

Still, if we could somehow forgive them, maybe the truth would come out and heal us. That's all I am saying.

And also, TKG may have allegedly been the main conspirator, but the others are still around, and so there is still pressure to keep it secret. Maybe our g-g-grandchildren will find out the truth. 

[Nori Muster]

We may never know why Srila Prabhupada died. Maybe he had pancreatic cancer.

Maybe he was poisoned. It would be nice to know. It does make a difference.

From the way it happened, and the people who were around him, I am still leaning toward conspiracy to murder.

But I believe we each have to settle it in our own hearts, and that may be all we can do for now.

We moved the issue forward, for sure.

I wish there was a statute of limitations on murder. Having no statute of limitations makes this a more dangerous world. People who committed a murder in the 1970s must still watch their backs for the rest of their lives, and could be moved to violence again to cover their tracks.

If there was a statute of limitations, it could prevent a lot of violence.

<Fwd.doc>

[Nori Muster]

I lived on Watseka, during the thick of things from 1978-1988, the first decade after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

My job was to file newspaper clippings about ISKCON and answer phones at the P.R. office, along with other duties. 

My service was not a devotional job like taking care of the deities, or mopping the floor in the temple, where I was sheltered from politics.

I was not out on sankirtan where organization politics went over my head.

From 4 to 9 a.m. it was about going to the morning program and finishing my rounds. The rest of the day was about covering up organizational scandals.

You cannot imagine the things I witnessed.

I put some of it in my book, Betrayal of the Spirit.

But there was a lot that I cut from the book. For one thing, I knew all the eleven gurus and other big players. Not that I chatted with them, since they did not talk to (or even acknowledge) women. Usually, it would just be a knock at the door and some big-wig would hand over a few rolls of film and some paperwork, meant to print in the ISKCON World Review.

I remember when they made a bunch of new gurus in Mayapur in 1987, we had a computer glitch that led to not printing all the names when the paper came out. Boy did we hear about that!

We had to reprint the whole list in the next issue with a goveling apology.

From being around the guru types a lot, I can confirm that they had Mt. Everest sized egos.

Let me try to think of one who was not like that . . . . hmm . . . . this could take a minute. There were a few who were nice to me and treated me like a human being, but I can't think of them right now.

I also knew all the Laguna Beach drug dealers, because they hung around our office when they were in town.

We even had drug smugglers on our staff! After leaving I gradually took my blinders off and saw what the experience was really all about. Actually, the drug dealers were much more forthcoming with information, and friendly, than the guru-types.

[rainer hahn]

@"But I believe we each have to settle it in our own hearts"

Poison construct with TKG as main perpetrator inevitably leads to this distorted image of a bona fide spiritual master:

For the first time in this age of Kali, Krishna sent a Vaishnava acarya - Srila Prabhupada - to establish bhagavat-dharma in Western hemisphere.

Then there is TKG a "very big, big demon". In order to "send him to hell forever Prabhupada made him join ISKCON, gave him sannyasa, made him GBC and put him on the list of the eleven to go on after Prabhupada's departure".

Then Prabhupada ordered that TKG should be "the man who serves his meals so that TKG could gradually poison him what TKG did".

And Prabhuapda would do all this just "in order to make sure that TKG will go to hell forever by committing the most heinous crime".

What is most bizarre of this TKG poison construct is that why Prabhupada did not tell all assembled devotees whats happening?

Hansadutta was there leading kirtan and Prabhupada would silently drink poisoned milk, knowing that by doing this he would die soon? So this makes absolutely no sense. 

Besides, most of us Westerners live in constitutional state where you are
locked up in lunatic asylum when going public with such type of poisoning
construct what is not proven by any court?
 

[Pratyatosa]

Very interesting and informative, Mother Nori Prabhu. Thank you very much for sharing with us some more of your insider information.

Speaking of "Mt. Everest sized egos," I remember Mother Jadurani telling me privately at New Vrindaban in 1980, a few hours before she got badly beaten up by a gang of female Kirtanananda Swami groupies/boot-lickers/thugs, that "Prabhupada named the 11 because they are the ones with the biggest egos." When she said that, I was thinking, "But one of the 11 is your ex-husband (Satsvarupa)", and partly because of this, I was really surprised to hear her say such a thing.

It's like I've said before:

“Step right up. Become guru!” is the poison bait. It’s Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s trick to reveal who the self-motivated rascals are. It’s also His trick to motivate the troublemakers, who would normally be more trouble than they are worth, to actually do a little bit of useful service, such as maintaining the bricks and mortar!

But here's something that I just thought of: "Srila Prabhupada was poisoned due to a conspiracy of his most intimate disciples" is also a type of poison bait, designed to reveal who the mindless faultfinders are. To falsely accuse someone (to bear false witness) is extremely sinful. Why take a chance? Why be so quick to accuse others of such a horrendous deed? Those who are quick to jump on the "Prabhupada was poisoned by his guru wannbe disciples" bandwagon, IMHO, are making a very big mistake. Better to adopt a less spiritually risky policy of "innocent until proven guilty."

At the same time, the accused have it coming. They disobeyed Prabhupada's July 9, 1977 "ritvik henceforward" order, thus making it appear that they had a diabolical motive for killing their guru in order to take over his assets! Therefore, they are getting exactly what they deserve, and more and more of their disciples/followers are giving up their service to these self-motivated rascals over the poison issue.

Ys, Ptd

On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Nori Muster <norim...@gmail.com> wrote:

I lived on Watseka, during the thick of things from 1978-1988, the first decade after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

My job was to file newspaper clippings about ISKCON and answer phones at the P.R. office, along with other duties. 

My service was not a devotional job like taking care of the deities, or mopping the floor in the temple, where I was sheltered from politics.

I was not out on sankirtan where organization politics went over my head.

From 4 to 9 a.m. it was about going to the morning program and finishing my rounds. The rest of the day was about covering up organizational scandals.

You cannot imagine the things I witnessed.

I put some of it in my book, Betrayal of the Spirit.

But there was a lot that I cut from the book. For one thing, I knew all the eleven gurus and other big players. Not that I chatted with them, since they did not talk to (or even acknowledge) women. Usually, it would just be a knock at the door and some big-wig would hand over a few rolls of film and some paperwork, meant to print in the ISKCON World Review.

I remember when they made a bunch of new gurus in Mayapur in 1987, we had a computer glitch that led to not printing all the names when the paper came out. Boy did we hear about that!

We had to reprint the whole list in the next issue with a groveling apology.

[Nori Muster]

Sorry if I offended you.

[Nori Muster]

Thank you for your kind words, Ptd. ISKCON was a harrowing experience for me, especially after I got out and discovered what was really going on. Yeah, few in ISKCON can risk believing what I wrote in my book. Most take the leaders' advice and base their opinion on the title. But my book went on the Internet as a bootlegged copy (actually two different copies) and I am sure that any interested parties read it. Nobody in the know disputed a single fact in the book.

Plus, one of the drug dealers asked if he could read the manuscript because he wanted to give the book (when it came out) to the mother of one of the deceased drug dealers to read. He wanted to make sure the part about PDI and the Laguna Beach temple were completely accurate. 

Anyways, people can argue for maintaining the code of silence, but in the wider culture where most of us came from, at the time we grew up, they still taught us critical thinking in school. So, I think with my college education and all that, and my friendship with my father most of all, I was finally able to say, okay, this is a weird situation, I better get out.

After resigning, I found out everything that was happening when I was a member. When I left, I only saw the proverbial tip of the iceberg. So all of you who want to be good ISKCON followers, keep your heads down.

Sheesh, when I was a member, I was such a good devotee that I thought something bad would happen to me if I even heard gossip. I used to shove people out the door at the P.R. office if they said anything negative about the gurus. 

Also, a correction: it was in 1986 when the new guru list came out, when they added about twelve men. Like most people, I remember dates by where I was when I found out, and it was in the same office where we were in 1986, in Laguna Beach, the same time frame as when we got the phone call that Sulochan was dead. So it was spring of 1986.

By the way, when my husband took the call from one of his buddies in L.A., he told me Sulochan was dead. The first thing I thought was, "New Vrindaban," but the first thing I said was, "Maybe he died of a heart attack."

Later we found out he was shot in the head, so it had to be New Vrindaban. Then they had the hitman under arrest, and the rest is history. We tried to cover it up in the ISKCON World Review by printing a good news story about their prasadam feeding program in the next issue, or some such.

After that, when the situation started to really spill into the mainstream media, we put a total ban on news about New Vrindaban.

It was only months later, maybe close to a year later, when my father took us aside and said, something to the effect: "You can't ignore this anymore. It's in Time Magazine, it's in The New York Times. It's on TV. If you ignore it, people will think you're trying to cover it up. Come on. What do you want to be, lackeys for a p.r. rag or real journalists?" My father was not afraid to speak his mind, god rest his soul.

He and my ISKCON husband were the only reason I could get out when I needed to.

Dave wanted to leave much earlier than I did, so when I came around, we moved out within a few weeks.

Well, sorry for rambling, I did have some good memories.

After the editorial meeting where Dave and I resigned the ISKCON World Review, we left Mukunda's apartment and went down the elevator. In the elevator we jumped up and down, clapping and laughing. You know how much fun it can be to jump up and down in an elevator when it's going down. So that is definitely a good memory from a bittersweet time.

[larry freeman p]

many  poisoners escape detection;
choice of poison makes it harder to detect.

Prabhupad wanted Tamal to spread the books.
Prabhupad said Bhaktisiddanta departed 'in disgust' = 'motivation'
Prabhupad was clear:  He was NOT His body;
so He was not being poisoned directly.
The poison content of His hairs clearly indicate poisoning.
 
 
 

---

From: norim...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:49:14 -0700
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Ron P Conroy]

did you look at the well water on the Krsna Balarama grounds ? when i was there they put some purple stuff in it . the water turned purple.  I don't think any of us used water purifiers back then 70ties.. what was in the water ?

how much arsnic ?

[pada]

http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2014/04/hansadutta-das-on-poison-issue.html

[tim lee]

krishna1008: Hansadutta das: on the Poison Issue

	krishna1008: Hansadutta das: on the Poison Issue From Hansadutta *Anyone ( like Puranjan ) can say anything, right or wrong, without presenting evidence, and there are no consequences.
	View on krishna1008.blogspot.com	Preview by Yahoo

[larry freeman p]

I wish you were 'right'
 

---

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 20:25:17 -0400

Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

From: saty...@gmail.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[Labangalatika Dasi]

Haribol  that Srila Prabhupada may have forgiven them does not mean that we should forgive them.  Justice for our Spiritual master.  sentiments have no place here. All glories to Srila Prabhupada

[Labangalatika Dasi]

Haribol  it could be that a lot of money was coming in from somewhere to TKG from persons who  wer enemies of Srila Prabhupada. So many he had fearlessly called rascals. Many big demons had reason to fear him.

[rainer hahn]

@"Justice for our Spiritual master"

Below Hansadutta prabhu suggest that all this poison talk turns Prabhupada into a fool. So Hansadutta pr is asking us to stop turning Prabhupada into a foolish conditioned soul.

Dear Rammohan Prabhu, Obeisances, all glories ti Srila Prabhupada.

All this talk and speculation of Prabhupada being poisoned started years after Srila Prabhupada disappeared, I noted that it was mostly disgruntled and frustrated devotees, who had some axe to grind with Tamal Krishna or others. Do you really think Srila Prabhupada would silently, without clearly, unambiguously and specifically saying by name, time and place "Tamal Krsna, or Bhavanandam or such and such devotees are poisoning me with Arsenic." He was such a fool??

Srila Prabhupada ran a pharmacy as a business, made his own medicine, was quite familiar with chemicals ( Worked for Bose's laboratories )  and their effect, one of his close friends was Dr. Ghosh. Prabhupada also told us that is was said by an astrologer "This man was a doctor in his previous life"..... etc...... So - Srila  Prabhupada was oblivious to who and  what was going on around him and he was being administered  arsenic poison by the people ( Disciples ) attending him? He just mystically ( inexplicably )  endured the administration of arsenic poisoning by some neophyte disciples??

 When Prabhupada was so particular about every detail of his books, deities, art work, temple construction, preparation of his and devotees' prasadam, etc....... meticulous in every endeavour and every thing he encountered.. We are to believe that at the time of his passing, he simply became indifferent, he could not say " Hansadutta... Tamal Krsna Maharaja and so and so devotees .. are giving me poison, please help me, take me out of this situation ??"  Would any ordinary man knowing he was being betrayed by his closest friends and relatives simply submit to that ?? I dont think so. Do you, does anyone?

Stop comparing Srila Prabhupada to Jesus Christ, of who no one knows ( none of you all know anything about, except from imperfect hearsay )  anything, since in Christianity  there is no standard, ( Like Vedic system of disciplic succession )  perfect system of GURU PARAM PARA (as in our line )  from which we can receive the perfect account of his teachings ( Words ) and his activities. Actually at the present moment, one would be hard pressed to find ONE PERFECTLY FOLLOWING AND REALIZED DISCIPLE OF LORD JESUS ON THIS PLANET.

When I was singing for Srila Prabhupada in those last two months, if I mispronounced a word, or omitted a word of the Bhajan, Srila Prabhupada would interject and correct me.. Does this sound like a man who had become hopelessly indifferent, depressed and  in a mood of  "Let it all hang out" who cares, these disciples are useless demonic persons, so let them do what they want.... I humbly accept it as the will of KRSNA? I don't think so, that was never Srila Prabhupada's attitude never, he was full of determination, and TRIKALAGNA, knower of Past-Present and

Future. Srila Prabhupada could not specifically identify who is doing what? Hard to believe.

Puranjan's stupid insane  suggestion to advertise "SRILA PRABHUPADA WAS MURDERED"  to establish that he was the true representative of KRSNA...

"LIKE JESUS CHRIST" is .. well ! in a word .... LUNACY !!! INSANITY... the ravings of  a MADMAN.

I suggest to you find the VVN article mentioned in my previous post. You go through it and decide if it is relevant..I also suggest that there should be  a filtering system to determine a devotees qualification before posting his / her writings. Maybe something like , having read all of Prabhupada's books and heard his audio ( especially darshans and morning walks ) having or being a part or present temple president, actively preaching. Some standard, like a king would have a council of learned Brahmins who would give the King and his ministers sound advice on ruling his kingdom.

The idea of "Free speech  / Freedom of speech"  is  a modern  absurdity  as much as "free love / sexual freedom"   women's rights ( Women Gurus) ... Gay rights, ( Gay Gurus, for the Gays ?? )  same sex marriage.... non discrimination, Democracy, Anarchy etc.... this is all non - sense ( Prabhupada taught us ) but it is being introduced more and more in the community of Prabhupada's disciples world wide... Why? you want to  have  a Gay Guru? a woman Guru? a lesbian Guru? a Pedophile Guru? a transgender Guru??


CORRECTION TO MY PREVIOUS POST; I realised,  Actually Puranjan is not a fly... He's a maggot or worm in the stool, flies at least touch and go, but maggots and worms in stool are  perpetually absorbed and at home in stool. Puranja's exclusive engagement is  finding out, eating and serving up stool 24/7. He's not a fly, he's a worm in stool. I wanted to correct that.

Your servant,
Hansadutta dsas

[rainer hahn]

That seems the article Hansadutta is referring to:

12/23/97 - 1419

http://www.vnn.org/ivc/971223-1419/index.html

A Known Criminal Supplied "Makaradhvaja"

---

USA (VNN) - Letter from Kaviraj Das:

Candra Swami is a known criminal, and Adikesava ex Swami got the "Makaradhvaja" from him. When Adikesava went to get the medicine he approached Candra Swami. He gave Adikesava some Makaradhvaja that had been prepared for someone else (not the one meant for Srila Prabhupada). This shows where the medicine is coming from, and Adikesava had asked Candra for the strongest he could get.

The GBC wanted to water down the whole thing, but here we see strong negligence on their part. This case should be taking seriously. It shows negligence from beginning to end. Yet they don't want to take any responsibility for the wrong doing.

Candra Swami is presently serving a life sentence in Tihar Central Jail. He has cheated so many people over money, and he was involved in major scandals. How did the GBC trust such a person to get a medicine for their spiritual master? It makes you think "what negligence." There are thousands of qualified doctors and medicine producers, so why this Chandra Swami? Was Chandra Swami a bogus scamster at that time he was approached by Adikesava? The answer is YES. He seems to be connected to something like the Mafia from day one. On the other hand, Adikesava should be questioned.

According to a report given by a devotee, Pritu told some devotees that he met a stranger on a flight. The stranger asked him which religion he belonged to. When Pritu said "Hare Krishna," the man replied, "are you guys connected to the CIA?" Prithu replied, "why do you say such a thing! Give one example of how we are connected to the CIA? Suddenly the man recalled an incident, the selling of the New York temple by one of our men. Is Adikesava related to this agency? The answer is yes, his father had worked in that agency, and he threatened the treasurer of the New York temple, that "if you don't forge the signature of the remaining GBCs I am going to tell Vakresara Pandit to take care of you."

This whole thing is known to many New York devotees. He sold the temple without the full sanction on the GBC. He forced the selling of the New York Temple.

Srila Prabhupada had warned us that this movement can be destroyed from inside. It looks effective, Srila Prabhupada never wanted to sell that building. Why the GBC sold it? That is a good question? Why Adikesava is not being questioned? The whole scenario has to be taking into account, and not simple the "poison" tapes.

Your Servant
Kaviraj Das

[rainer hahn]

@Either ignorant or deliberately lying........

Dear PADA

@"Oh pour Hamsadutta!" Not so fast! If this hair test was done by any bona fide serious authorized forensic jurisprudence, why did body of public prosecutors dismiss an application? There must be something totally wrong there! India's court checked this so called forensic analysis and it was not accepted, but rejected as humbug.

Your whole so called forensic analysis was dismissed by all courts /lawyers in the whole world! So either this whole poison campaign is done by folks who are ignorant or deliberately lying?

Prabhupada never said, "I am being poisoned, or someone has given me poison".
He did say after the Makaradwaja Ayur Vedic medicine was given to him, and it reacted unfavorably, or too strongly, "It (The Makaradwaja medicine) is acting like poison".

PADA: "...you are too isolated" Please stick to addressing the argument!

You could not convince any judge / court that there is something wrong there. Now you incite people on the internet that Prabhupada, a pure devotee, was killed by his own secretary.  Btw, Tamal Krishna Goswami's family could easily file for libel and slander. Very good preaching!

Thats PADA's hairtest website, rejected as invalid by all courts/lawyers/judges in the whole world, http://www.harekrsna.org/gurupoison/support/hairtest.htm

[larry freeman p]

isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black?
most of the gurukulis opinion is..................
they simply don't believe ANY of the words of these phony gurus.
ie: whatever they say is suspect.
and have very convoluted agendas.
Also, as one police officer said:
In India, it is far easier to get away with crime;
esp. via bribery,
even to police
or even in the judicial sector:
look at the extent of manipulation of the Bangalore case.
Whereas if Prabhupad had been poisoned in the US;
it would have been far harder to get away with it.
In any event if you choose to believe He was not poisoned physically;
it seems clear His ISKCON WAS 'poisoned' philosophically.
doesn't it?
 

---

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:40:39 +0200

Subject: Re: Prabhupada: The body of a pure devotee cannot be polluted

From: raine...@gmail.com
To: istag...@googlegroups.com

[rmd]

@"they simply don't believe ANY of the words of these phony gurus"

Fact is that PADA's body of evidence (http://www.harekrsna.org/gurupoison/support/hairtest.htm) was rejected by US court of justice. This hair test was done by US official medicolegal expert and when presented to criminal court things dissolved into nothing. Answer is quite simple, this hair test was useless to bring a murder charge. Of course, PADA never admitted, although PADA's whole murder charge is based upon this hair test.

This is not about Hansadutta, Prabhupada's whole room was daily packed with devotees. Anybody with two eyes could see, there were hundreds of devotees in Prabhupada's room.

Prabhupada was lying there and knowingly drinking poisoned milk? Prabhupada could have immediately told to all these devotees that they should take action and get him out of there.

Thats why Hansadutta says, please don't turn Prabhupada into a fool! This is not about Hansadutta this is about common sense! The original PADA department for researching this issue was BIF, Bhaktivedanta Investigation Force.

Not only Bhaktivedanta Investigation Group, but, Bhaktivedanta Investigation Force. These devotees headed by Saksigopal were told the same thing, to investigate Prabhupada's alleged poisoning performed by TKG.

After two years of investigation these folks ended up to totally reject Prabhupada. In fact they changed their whole website into a website to offend Prabhupada.

So, this is my small attempt here. For those who believe that Prabhupada was poisoned by his own secretary and Prabhupada lay there on his bed, knowing that his secretary is administering him poison, and silently surrendering to this poisoning process, might eventually also lose faith in Prabhupada and end up like this "special taskforce PADA group", BIF.

[Hansadutta Das]

Dear  Rammohan Prabhu, Please accept my most humble obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for writing  a nice sober, common sense response to all this.  Besides the points made in my previous post and the one at hand from you. One has to ask, as is standard and very important in any criminal investigation by professional law enforcement personnel, Why would someone  want to  poison Srila  Prabhupada, be they  disciple or  outsider ? What would be the motive ? what would a disciple or a Karmie gain by killing Srila Prabhupada ?? 

 Srila Prabhupada had already written ( dictated )  his last will and testament, he had formed and named individuals to administer his " Mayapur Vrindaban trust " He had also formed  " The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust ( BBT ) which was a legal trust  which held his estate in the form of his numerous copyrighted works... Bhagavad Gita a sit is / Srimad Bhagavtam / Chaitanya Charitamrita .. etc.. )  The trustees were all appointed. The GBC management  Document and   personnel  Body  were also in place.

The directions ( Direct prescription and order from Srila Prabhupada to 11 disciples and the world wide body of devotees  ) for  conducting  initiations  to perpetuate  the expansion of ISKCON with  new devotees into the future  ( July 9th , 1077 letter  Naming 11 disciples as Rittvik representatives of the acharya ) )  after his disappearance  was also in place.

There might be other things, like Bank accounts or personal Items that were designated  to be disposed of, but I have no knowledge of that , so I cannot comment about things I have no  knowledge of. My point in itemizing all these  things is to show that whatever  might have been a motive for financial gain, had long ago been fixed up and designated to various individuals. In fact leading devotees, GBC/BBT / MVT / temple presidents /  Sankirtan Leaders all had steadily increasing cash flow and resources and manpower at their disposal. All were well respected  and trusted in their respective engagements and responsibilities. 

So the question is, what could have been the motive for someone to poison srila Prabhupada  ?  Everything of financial value, or prestige was already in secure and capable hands . So, what could have been the motive. We know that there are three desirable things that the conditioned soul hankers for  WEALTH/ WOMAN / PRESTIGE.... so, what is thee answer ? It had already been given freely to all concerned. 

Besides, Srila Prabhupada was obviously getting very near to leaving his body. I remember when I fist arrived from Sri Lanka, as soon as I saw Srila Prabhupada ( Early October )  I was struck by th impression that Srila Prabhupada had made up hs mind that he was going to leave his body. It was just kike walking in on a friend and you see his bags and suitcase are packed, he das his traveling suit on, ticket in hand and the whole room seems ordered and arranged  for a long absence . That was my very distinct impression at the time. 

I did not stay in Prabhupada's quarters, I stayed in the guest house in a room with Baradraja, Prabhu the artist. So I had no service in cooking, or massaging or even just standing watch in the night. I was just engaged in singing some hours during the day, I don't know what transpired in Prabhupada's house so  I cannot say anything in that regard, 

The other aspect of a crime that Law enforcement looks at is how the crime is committed. ( Discernment and intention ) Calculated, deliberately planned, or in a fit of passion, rage , jealousy, or by  accident or thrill seeking. 

The other question is , where was the crime committed, and exactly how was the  poison administered and by whom ??  Where did the perpetrator /s get the Arsenic poison ?  How did they know  what  the dose  should be ? 

Another thing that most devotees don't  understand is that all the GBC men, or the men named as Rittvik representatives , were all very headstrong and competitive individuals and not inclined to reveal themselves, in  their plans and goals for preaching or other programmes they might be working on. How would such headstrong competitive individuals conspire ( As some have suggested ) to poison Srila Prabhupada ? 

I  remember listening to the poison tapes many years after they were originally made, and at the Time my impression was  that if one was not cued to hear " The poison is going down "  I doubt that if the same tapes were played for  ten different individuals, ( each in a separate room ) who were not devotees, and knew nothing of ISKCON or  Srila Prabhupada, each person would come away hearing something different ( If anything at all )  than the other nine persons. I remember saying to someone at the time, after hearing these tapes that I could not distinctly hear " The Poison is going down " I said listening to these tapes and being told what I would hear is like when we were children, looking at the ever changing cloud formations and seeing " An old man with a beard "  when one of us would shout and point to the clouds, just as quickly another kid would say, "  no look, it's not an old man with a beard,its a horse, see the tail "..... in this way whatever was suggested, we would inevitably see that in the clouds. I'm sure all of us remember this kind of  " Cloud gazing " from our child days. 

I never for a moment, from the time this poison issue came to  my attention, believed that Srila Prabhupada was deliberately poisoned by Tamal Krsna Maharaja, or any other of Prabhupada's disciples. I have read all the literature and spoken with Dhanesvara  Prabhu who was doing reverse speech analysis at the time.. I spoke  with many devotees, but none of them have been able to impress me that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned deliberately by one or more of his leading disciples. 

My last point in all this. Unfortunately the matter was never pursued systematically, professionally and timely. It should have been handled by Law enforcement, not by every tom dick and harry. The devotees are not criminal investigators, they are not objective, they get emotional ( Rightly so ) they have personal grudges clouding their judgement and many other things that probably hamper a clear thorough investigation. I don't know what can be done at this late stage, but  do think discussing it endlessly on a public forum doesn't help the Devotee community, or the public.

Your humble servant

Hansadutta das

--

[tim lee]

The FBI in Gainseville said they would prosecute this as a murder if it had occured in USA.

krishna1008: Hansadutta Attacks Jesus to Rationalize Poison Issue

	krishna1008: Hansadutta Attacks Jesus to Rationalize Poison Issue Prithu Putra swami also said he knew Srila Prabhupada had been poisoned, and that is why he left ISKCON.

View on krishna1008.blogspot.com	Preview by Yahoo

[tim lee]

krishna1008: Hansadutta Attacks Jesus to Rationalize Poison Issue

	krishna1008: Hansadutta Attacks Jesus to Rationalize Poison Issue Prithu Putra swami also said he knew Srila Prabhupada had been poisoned, and that is why he left ISKCON.

View on krishna1008.blogspot.com	Preview by Yahoo

On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:58 AM, Hansadutta Das <hansad...@gmail.com> wrote:

[rainer hahn]

Dear Hansadutta prabhu
obeisances - all glories to Srila Prabhupada

Thanks for presenting your observation as eyewitness - one who was there with Prabhupada and can bear testimony what actually happened!

Over at various poison theory speculator blogs is kind of emergency task force to undermine statement based on sastra, that a pure devotee - nitya siddha - is always 100% protected by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna.  

It has been my observance over the years, when someone cannot demonstrate that he is right he attacks people personally with defamation and vilification. That is a sign of defeat.

Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument.

So do not be distracted by all those attacks but go on with the good work of establishing that a mahabhagavat pure devotee is never touched by the material energy. Anybody who states opposite is not educated properly and especially requires strong sadhana - to get freed from the contamination of the modes of material energy.

Again thanks for your intervention and go on with the good work!

ys

Rammohan das

[Nori Muster]

Dear Istagosthi,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I hear you all saying that you believe poison cannot kill a pure devotee.

If poison killed Srila Prabhupada, ergo that means he was not a pure devotee.

So when someone says poison, you all take that as an offense to your spiritual master.

Am I reading it right?

If that is the consensus, I suggest we change the subject now.

I believe it was a good open minded discussion, and I am glad to understand more about how everyone views it. 

I agree with Rammohan das, we should not hurl ad hominem attacks. Why rock each other's boats? I believe the matter will be settled if and when everyone is ready to settle it. 

Also, there are people who will still pursue it or continue to fight it no matter what we decide here. But to keep Pratyatosa's place open for further interesting discussions, why don't we call a truce?

Nori

[Mario Pineda]

The spiritual master is not the body. The original bodies of all, including all spiritual masters are not protected but destroyed and become dust. What is protected is the true spiritual master who I his teachings of true love. Obviously this is not easy to understand for many.

MD

--