Question
Pankaja Pankaja
Hare Krshna!
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Please accept my obeisances.
My husband and I are from Ukraine.
A few years ago we learned about deviations in ISKCON.
We don't have spiritual initiation.
We try to read Srila Prabhupada's books and associate with devotees who follow his instructions.
Please help me understand the issues of etiquette.
How did the devotees speak each other during Srila Prabhupada's time?
How often were the words "mataji" and "prabhu" used, especially without a name?
If two women communicate, then they should call each other "mataji (with or without a name)" or is this form necessary only when a man addresses a woman?
If two male devotees of the same level are talking, should they say "prabhu"?
Is it correct to say simply "mataji" or "prabhu" without a name?
It will be correct to add to the name "das" or "dasi" when addressing?
Does this appeal "prabhu" depend on the level of the devotee? Maybe it is used only in addressing an elder?
We just have such a confusion with this etiquette. And the elders in ISKCON are no longer trusted.
I want to know how this was done under Srila Prabhupada.
Therefore, I appeal to you.
For example, how should I have applyed to you correctly?
How to call a devotee who does not yet have a spiritual name?
It will be correct to call him by name, or is it better to say "prabhu" or "mataji"?
I will write the possible options:
Nanda-nandana, can you tell me ..
Nanda-nandana Prabhu, can you tell me ..
Nanda-nandana das, can you tell me ..
Prabhu, can you tell me ..
Hari-kanta, can you tell me ..
Mataji Hari-kanta, can you tell me ..
Hari-kanta Devi dasi, can you tell me ..
Mataji, can you tell me ..
Tell me please how to speak correctly in different dialogs?
If they are male students of the same level:
If this is an appeal to the elder:
If they are female students of the same level:
If this is an appeal to the elder (female):
I would be very grateful if you take your time and help sort out these issues.
I understand that such questions are not the main thing, but a clear understanding of this will simplify communication, which means that communication can become more effective.
And please give the contacts of someone from the female students Srila Prabhupada, which is now Prabhupadanuga.
🙏
Pratyatosa
2. Malati Devi Dasi (Member of the GBC - one of Srila Prabhupada's earliest disciples): "Srila Prabhupada transcended bodily identifications in favor of principle. He taught us to address one another, men to men, men to women, women to women, women to men, as 'Prabhu' in order to teach the correct mood, 'not that we become 'master,' but that we see all others as 'master.'" (<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/istagosthi/WxFkOrqTSlE>)
Pankaja Pankaja
Pratyatosa
Hare Krshna!🙏Thank you very much, Pratyatosa Prabhu.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/istagosthi/CAJpu5XFJc5FBeSJgL%2B5hsNAbT3PDw9s8dp9EhLA9augXsioxgw%40mail.gmail.com.
olivie...@gmail.com
No sir, you are devotionnaly wrong. I guess you were not in ISKCON in Prabhupada’s times. We used to call each other ‘prabhu’, regardless of the sex of the person (not just in Western Europe). In the society naming ‘mother’ or ‘mataji’ is just a social training for males because looking on women with a view of sense gratification is detrimental. Therefore vedic scriptures enjoins to see or at least call any women except one’s wife ‘mother’, ‘mataji’. This is a basic education for the mass of people to follow. But for Vaisnavis who also are not so many the vocabulary can be different. They too ‘deserve’ to be called ‘prabhu’ unless you are not humble and not at all elevated in Krishna consciousness. It’s just a Vaisnava brotherly appreciation by humble Godsisters and Godbrothers who appreciate the matchless gift that Srila Prabhupad gave to all and a nice way to express respect to other devotees. No legitimate reason to be scandalized and try to refute that. Personnaly each time I write or say ‘prabhu’ to a Vaisnavi I feel being elevated. It’s very nice, I recommend!
Below you will find two links to Srila Prabhupada’s audio conversations (transcripts are presented for the proper excerpts). On the second one Srila Prabhupada adresses one of his ‘female’ disciple ‘Prabhu’. And below that you will find 10 Prabhupada letters where Srila Prabhupada writes ‘Prabhu’ for his ‘female’ disciples, even for ones who were not yet formally initiated. Srila Prabhupada himself, a ‘sannyasi male’ educated in the Vedic system, referred to his ‘female’ disciples as “Prabhu”: “Yamuna Prabhu”, “Visakha Prabhu”, “Malati Prabhu”, “Kausalya Prabhu”, “Madira Prabhu”, and others.
I have read the excerpts presented by Rakesh Sharma. They are not conclusive to his thesis. They just show what I indicated as an educational vedic system for the society at large. Srila Prabhupada agreed to that and I also agree. In one of the excerpts that Rakesh Sharma has put in broader letters Srila Prabhupada only speaks about “women”, not “Vaisnavis”. Restating the vedic system referred above Srila Prabhupada says: “Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, “Ma, ma, mother.” That is the etiquette.” For Vaisnavis Srila Prabhupada gave a different example and instruction how to call them as you can ear and read: “So each, everyone shall treat others as “my master.” This is the Vaiṣṇava system.”
----------------------------------------------------
From Vanisource:
https://vanisource.org/wiki/680924_-_Conversation_-_Seattle
680924R1- SEATTLE - September 24, 1968
“Now another thing, that girls should not be taken as inferior. You see? Sometimes ... of course, sometimes scripture we say that, “Woman is the cause of bondage.” So that should not be, I mean to say, aggravated. (laughs) That should not be aggravated, that “Woman is inferior,” or something like that. So the girls who come, you should treat them nicely, at least. [...] After all, anyone who is coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, man or woman, boys or girls, they are welcome. They are very fortunate. You see. And the idea of addressing “prabhu” means “you are my master.” That is the ... Prabhu means master. And “Prabhupāda” means many masters who bows down at his lotus feet. That is Prabhupāda. So each, everyone shall treat others as “my master.” This is the Vaiṣṇava system.”
----------------------------------------------------
From Vanisource:
https://vanisource.org/wiki/690908_-_Conversation_-_Hamburg
Room Conversation September 9, 1969, Hamburg
“Prabhupāda: Viśvanātha Prabhu, you understand English?
Woman: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You stay with your son?
Woman: No. I am visiting him for a few weeks.
Prabhupāda: So why don’t you stay here and join your son for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Because your son is so good, you must be good. Because a son cannot be good unless the mother is good, because son inherits the mother's quality.”
----------------------------------------------------
Srila Prabhupada’s Letters
From Vaniquotes:
(1971 Correspondence)
Letter to Ranadhira -- Gorakhpur 16 February, 1971: Pittsburgh
[...] Yes, I have all blessings for the happy marriage of Haladhara Prabhu and Joan Prabhu, so you may immediately do the needful in this regards. [...]
Letter to Rsabhadeva -- Bombay 25 March, 1971: Laguna Beach
[...] So long as there is Guru-Gauranga worship, Yamuna Prabhu may act as pujari. [...]
Letter to Mukunda -- Bombay 13 April, 1971: London
[...] Presently I am securing wooden beads from here and as soon as I receive them, I shall send them to the respective devotees, duly chanted on. Anna Prabhu may be initiated also and she has my blessings for being married to Puranda at the earliest convenience.
Please offer my blessings to Jeffrey, Tribhuvanatha, Mary, Ally, Milan, Nicholas, Josh, Richard (Rancor), Jim (Pratejas) Geoff, Philip, Terry, Adeti Devi, Martha, Adeline and Mandakini Devi Prabhus. I have received their very kind letters of appreciation and I am very much grateful. [...]
Letter to Abhirama -- Malaysia 5 May, 1971:
[...] Similarly, if Lyndan Prabhu can contribute $15,000 then the present problem of printing this book is solved. [...]
Letter to Tribhuvanatha -- Los Angeles 4 July, 1971: London
[...] So the stock of japa beads I brought with me has been depleted. Malati Prabhu was supposed to have brought some beads with her from India, and so I would like that those beads be sent immediately to N.Y. center by air. [...]
Letter to Rajamohan (Kelly Cristoph), Gauramohan (Rodney Purcell), Kumkum (Kathy) -- Nairobi 28 September, 1971:
[...] I have given you the spiritual names as follows: [...] (Kathy Prabhu)—Kumkum Devi Dasi. Kumkum is the red powder which is used extensively by the gopis and Krishna. [...]
Letter to Kirtanananda , Vrindaban Candra, Silavati -- Calcutta 6 November, 1971:
[...] Silavati Prabhu said that this was her long cherished dream. It has been mine also. [...]
(1973 Correspondence)
Letter to Sri Govinda -- Calcutta 31 January, 1973: Evanston, Illinois
[...] In Los Angeles I personally advised them in all the different aspects of deity worship, so you may consult, especially with Silavati Prabhu (now in Dallas) and do the needful. [...]
(1974 Correspondence)
Letter to Gangamayi -- Bombay 9 May, 1974: Bhaktivedanta Manor
[...] I am glad to hear that you are determined to stay and live in the temple now and that you are becoming very much attached to the Deity worship and very serious about serving the Deity along with Malati Prabhu. [...]
(1976 Correspondence)
Letter to Sacimata -- Chandigarh 15 October, 1976:
My Dear Sacimata Prabhu, Please accept my blessings. [...]
Pratyatosa
rainer hahn
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/istagosthi/CAFE%2BiH0xUtLVOHQugLL8aWsZhxLFKyucZqA%2B1NtMuW%3DJ_PvBFQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Pankaja Pankaja
Hare Krishna!
🙏
Thank you, Prabhus.
I think ISKCON as it is now is not capable of "producing" Vaishnavas.
Therefore, they separate men and women. They don't talk about the soul.
They seem to be chasing the number of students, not the quality of training. We know that "milk must be boiled well." Then there will be efficiency.
I think the big problem is in the management. They can't cope, so they change the rules.
Now, at least in Ukraine, women are not accepted to live and serve in the temple, as it was under Srila Prabhupada. You can only take 3 months training, it seems.
But what's next?
Why can't you stay to live, study and serve in the temple?
So it is with the householders. I have asked senior devotees. They said that now it is not customary for family people to live in the temple, because (!) there were many cases when they were simply lazy and wanted free housing (!).
This is true, it was even with Srila Prabhupada, but this does not mean that he closed the temples to all householders.
"Out of many thousands of people, only a few ..." But they are there. These units. Why close doors for everyone?
Srila Prabhupada opened the doors of the temples, and his perfect management allowed him to cultivate Vaishnavas and filter out lazy people.
But they simply closed the doors.
And they try to cope with at least brahmacari.
But who is the brahmacari now?
There may also be many lazy people among them.
And they are apparently trying to wean them from lust, using forms of addressing women as mothers.
But as I saw it, in our city in the temple the words "Prabhu" and "mataji" are used more in the sense of "man" and "woman", and not "master" and "mother".
And this is already completely sad.
суббота, 8 мая 2021 г. пользователь Pratyatosa <praty...@gmail.com> написал:
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/istagosthi/CAFE%2BiH0xUtLVOHQugLL8aWsZhxLFKyucZqA%2B1NtMuW%3DJ_PvBFQ%40mail.gmail.com.
BhaktaRobin
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+...@googlegroups.com.
Pankaja Pankaja
суббота, 8 мая 2021 г. пользователь BhaktaRobin <bhaktar...@gmail.com> написал:
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/istagosthi/CAFE%2BiH0xUtLVOHQugLL8aWsZhxLFKyucZqA%2B1NtMuW%3DJ_PvBFQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Prabhupadanuga" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to istagosthi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/istagosthi/84b75824-35f7-4645-ab2f-caa89fba3471n%40googlegroups.com.