FAQ's as of today (10/27/10)

[Ateeq Ahmed]

Here's the list of FAQ's and answers to some of them, which Br. Riaz has helped answer:

Again, if you have any questions, this is the preferred way to ask and get them answered. No guesswork, no spreading rumors, no wasting meeting time, etc.

 

I hope to post this online on the Google Docs page, after clean-up/refining.

 

- Ateeq

 

 

FAQ's:

 

Please add your questions to this list. If applicable, also mention who you're expecting the response from.

 

 

1.       Why are we even considering other options besides Masjid Bilal when we already committed to it?

 

[Ateeq]: A few weeks ago some brothers noticed that the United Rentals property on Levy Rd. went on sale for $1.5M. Its similarity in size to the Masjid Bilal lot and the relatively cheap price prompted them to ask the question, "Could we move into this place to avoid renting our current facility which we are quickly outgrowing, while the construction of Masjid Bilal completes?" The idea found some support and hence a group of individuals decided to explore it further.

 

2.       AR Riaz bhai: If we rent the current facility for one more year, do we still need to restore it?

 

[In Progress]

 

3.       What is the remaining cost of the MB project if we continue building according to the initial plan?

 

[Br. Riaz]: Working with contractor to come up with the latest quotes;  the contractor will present the different configurations and associated costs to us soon in person. Based on the current bids from the contractor, it will cost about 1.8M to build Full parking lot, Full foundation pad,  All utilities (Water, sewer, SMUD, PGE) and associated plumbing, complete steel structure and playground. This is a fixed cost regardless of what we choose to do on the inside.

PHASE A:Then the T.I development for Musallah (5000 sq ft, downstairs)  is $550,000 to make it total cost of $2.35M (1.8+0.55.). Can serve ISF needs of daily salat, Juma, Taraveeh, etc.

 If we do T.I development for Musallah(5000 sq ft) and school (9000 sq ft, mostly upstairs) for a total of 14000 sqft, the total T.I cost will be $884,000.00 to make it total cost of $2.7M (1.8+0.88)  Can serve both ISF and FCS needs. Note: The TI development cost for upstairs is almost half of downstairs.

PHASE B: The building can be expanded(T.I)  In the future by another 14000 sqft (for things like kitchen, assembly halls, etc., separate ladies musallah, library, etc  in the future at an average  cost of $65/ sq ft ).

 

 

4.       How long will the construction of MB take once we secure the loan?

 

1.5 years from the time we resume construction for Phase A. The most challenging part of construction such as grading, retaining walls, etc. is already done, Alhamdulillaah.

 

5.       What amount are we seeking the loan for? And what amount do we expect to raise in the form of donations?

 

We have applied for a loan of $1.5M and raise the remainder in donations. Based on our past experience and duas it is reasonableto  expect about $1M in donations within 1.5 to 2 years. We will also continue to raise funds to pay off our loan in couple of years  Inshallah.

 

6. Do we have any outstanding debt on the Masjid Bilal project? If so, how much, to whom (bank, individuals, etc.) and when does it need to be paid by?

 

We have 2 kinds of debts on the MB project, at present:

a) Pending payments for the masonry wall contractor in the amount of $100K payable in the next 10 months.

b) Qardh hasanah (interest-free loans) by individuals in the community in the amount of $548K, with a flexible payment plan. These loans were incurred to avoid stop-and-start construction costs of the west retaining wall which would have been far greater.  Who knows, once the construction starts and/or even before that  these individuals may waive part of this. They have done that in the past!

 

7.       In this exploration phase, we are merely investigating some of the possible options. But once this data-gathering is complete, we will eventually have to decide on the way forward. Which decision-making model do we want to follow when choosing between the different options? a) Voting between all members of the community, b) voting by community-appointed/agreed upon representatives, c) current ISF board, d) other?

 

In the past, all major decisions pertaining to ISF were arrived at by the ISF Board through mutual consultation and in the best interest of the community. Similarly, even in this case, the decision will be taken by the ISF Board Inshallah after informing the community of all aspects and getting their feedback.

 

 

8. An important factor in this process is also the "urgency" or "time-value" of the solution. How much longer can we afford to wait given the growing needs of the community? Do we have a backup plan if God-Forbid we lose one of our rental arrangements?

 

9. What is the Shari' ruling on selling the Masjid Bilal property if for some reason we choose to abandon the project?

 

10. What is our long-term plan for being debt-free?

 

11. What papers are submitted for loan and who are the sponsors?

 

12. What are terms and conditions from the sponsors?

 

13. Can the community have face to face meetings with the sponsors to understand their interest in the MB project?

 

14. How will the community take to pay off the debt? How long will it take? Please have answer backed by real historical data.  

 

15. How much community have to pay (final payment including all fees) when ISF is done with the last payment?

 

16. Are there any concerns with the UR facility being close to the cement-fix factory? Noise pollution aspects.

 

 

Misc. Comments:

 

1. Adapted from comments by Br. Junaid and Br. Dia:

While we don't see a real alternative in sight, we should note the preference to not build our Masjid using a loan, even if it is "Shariah-compliant". The idea behind this preference is to avoid any gray areas and also to minimize liability to our community.

 

2. Adapted from comments by Br. Junaid:

We realize that while the building is an important asset of our community, the activities that cater to and nourish our community are more important. We must therefore keep in mind when taking on any loans, that our programs and activities are not compromised as a result.

[Mohammad, Hafeez A]

Few more questions :

 

1.      What is the total cost of MB project?

Please correct the numbers if they are wrong.

Present figures shows that we have already spent $2.2M.  (MASHAALLAH)

Phase 0 + Phase A + Phase B = $2.7M (IA)

Phase D = 14,000 x $65 = $1M

Minarets + Gumbus + What is left = ???

Approx total comes to $5.9M + ??

 

2.      When we started the project we always estimated $4M as the total  cost of the project.  Does that mean that we add some buffer in the future costs as well?

Remember the figures in “1”  were after the reduction in construction costs.

 

3.       $1.59M  which was received in donations for MB, what is the time period and how much of it was from matching ?

With reference to the  PPT presentation which Br. Riaz gave us on Oct 12th,  the donations were given over a period of 3-4 years, out of which 300K-400K came from matching. Remember matching is reduced to half.

Please also note that we have 2 more masajids which did not exist during the initial donations.  We can argue it did not impact us but Allahu Alam.

IA we definitely make dua that  people will donate more when they see a real building for future MB project.

 

4.      Do we think the donations will impact the present operation costs of ISF + FCS ?

Presently we have 150-200K of operational expenses per year which are expected from our community through donations. Will this be impacted?

 

My intention is not to scare anyone. My opinion is we should be aware of these in making our future donations.    

 

 

 

Hafeez

 

 

 

From: isfm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:isfm...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ateeq Ahmed
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:38 PM
To: isfm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [isfmasjid:133] FAQ's as of today (10/27/10)

 

Here's the list of FAQ's and answers to some of them, which Br. Riaz has helped answer:

Again, if you have any questions, this is the preferred way to ask and get them answered. No guesswork, no spreading rumors, no wasting meeting time, etc.

 

I hope to post this online on the Google Docs page, after clean-up/refining.

 

- Ateeq

 

 

FAQ's:

 

Please add your questions to this list. If applicable, also mention who you're expecting the response from.

 

 

1.       Why are we even considering other options besides Masjid Bilal when we already committed to it?

 

[Ateeq]: A few weeks ago some brothers noticed that the United Rentals property on Levy Rd. went on sale for $1.5M. Its similarity in size to the Masjid Bilal lot and the relatively cheap price prompted them to ask the question, "Could we move into this place to avoid renting our current facility which we are quickly outgrowing, while the construction of Masjid Bilal completes?" The idea found some support and hence a group of individuals decided to explore it further.

 

2.       AR Riaz bhai: If we rent the current facility for one more year, do we still need to restore it?

 

[In Progress]

 

3.       What is the remaining cost of the MB project if we continue building according to the initial plan?

 

[Br. Riaz]: Working with contractor to come up with the latest quotes;  the contractor will present the different configurations and associated costs to us soon in person. Based on the current bids from the contractor, it will cost about 1.8M to build Full parking lot, Full foundation pad,  All utilities (Water, sewer, SMUD, PGE) and associated plumbing, complete steel structure and playground. This is a fixed cost regardless of what we choose to do on the inside.

PHASE A:Then the T.I development for Musallah (5000 sq ft, downstairs)  is $550,000 to make it total cost of $2.35M (1.8+0.55.). Can serve ISF needs of daily salat, Juma, Taraveeh, etc.

 If we do T.I development for Musallah(5000 sq ft) and school (9000 sq ft, mostly upstairs) for a total of 14000 sqft, the total T.I cost will be $884,000.00 to make it total cost of $2.7M (1.8+0.88)  Can serve both ISF and FCS needs. Note: The TI development cost for upstairs is almost half of downstairs.

PHASE B: The building can be expanded(T.I)  In the future by another 14000 sqft (for things like kitchen, assembly halls, etc., separate ladies musallah, library, etc  in the future at an average  cost of $65/ sq ft ).

 

 

4.       How long will the construction of MB take once we secure the loan?

 

1.5 years from the time we resume construction for Phase A. The most challenging part of construction such as grading, retaining walls, etc. is already done, Alhamdulillaah.

 

5.       What amount are we seeking the loan for? And what amount do we expect to raise in the form of donations?

 

We have applied for a loan of $1.5M and raise the remainder in donations. Based on our past experience and duas it is reasonableto  expect about $1M in donations within 1.5 to 2 years. We will also continue to raise funds to pay off our loan in couple of years  Inshallah.

 

6.       Do we have any outstanding debt on the Masjid Bilal project? If so, how much, to whom (bank, individuals, etc.) and when does it need to be paid by?

 

We have 2 kinds of debts on the MB project, at present:

a) Pending payments for the masonry wall contractor in the amount of $100K payable in the next 10 months.

b) Qardh hasanah (interest-free loans) by individuals in the community in the amount of $548K, with a flexible payment plan. These loans were incurred to avoid stop-and-start construction costs of the west retaining wall which would have been far greater.  Who knows, once the construction starts and/or even before that  these individuals may waive part of this. They have done that in the past!

 

7.       In this exploration phase, we are merely investigating some of the possible options. But once this data-gathering is complete, we will eventually have to decide on the way forward. Which decision-making model do we want to follow when choosing between the different options? a) Voting between all members of the community, b) voting by community-appointed/agreed upon representatives, c) current ISF board, d) other?

 

In the past, all major decisions pertaining to ISF were arrived at by the ISF Board through mutual consultation and in the best interest of the community. Similarly, even in this case, the decision will be taken by the ISF Board Inshallah after informing the community of all aspects and getting their feedback.

 

 

8.       An important factor in this process is also the "urgency" or "time-value" of the solution. How much longer can we afford to wait given the growing needs of the community? Do we have a backup plan if God-Forbid we lose one of our rental arrangements?

 

9.       What is the Shari' ruling on selling the Masjid Bilal property if for some reason we choose to abandon the project?

 

10.   What is our long-term plan for being debt-free?

 

11.  What papers are submitted for loan and who are the sponsors?

 

12.  What are terms and conditions from the sponsors?

 

13.  Can the community have face to face meetings with the sponsors to understand their interest in the MB project?

 

14.  How will the community take to pay off the debt? How long will it take? Please have answer backed by real historical data.  

 

15.  How much community have to pay (final payment including all fees) when ISF is done with the last payment?

 

16.   Are there any concerns with the UR facility being close to the cement-fix factory? Noise pollution aspects.

 

 

Misc. Comments:

 

1.       Adapted from comments by Br. Junaid and Br. Dia:

While we don't see a real alternative in sight, we should note the preference to not build our Masjid using a loan, even if it is "Shariah-compliant". The idea behind this preference is to avoid any gray areas and also to minimize liability to our community.

 

2.       Adapted from comments by Br. Junaid:

We realize that while the building is an important asset of our community, the activities that cater to and nourish our community are more important. We must therefore keep in mind when taking on any loans, that our programs and activities are not compromised as a result.

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "isfmasjid" group.
This is not an official ISF group. Items posted here are the opinions of the individual posting the email and not an ISF endorsement or announcement.

[Faheem Mazhari]

Assalamu Alaikum Br. Ateeq,

 

There have been requests to upload the presentation Riaz Bhai gave in the first of this series of meetings. Riaz bhai said yesterday he sent you that document. Can you please upload that?

 

JazakAllah
Faheem

 

From: isfm...@googlegroups.com [mailto:isfm...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ateeq Ahmed
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:38 PM
To: isfm...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [isfmasjid:133] FAQ's as of today (10/27/10)

 

Here's the list of FAQ's and answers to some of them, which Br. Riaz has helped answer:

Again, if you have any questions, this is the preferred way to ask and get them answered. No guesswork, no spreading rumors, no wasting meeting time, etc.

 

I hope to post this online on the Google Docs page, after clean-up/refining.

 

- Ateeq

 

 

FAQ's:

 

Please add your questions to this list. If applicable, also mention who you're expecting the response from.

 

 

1.       Why are we even considering other options besides Masjid Bilal when we already committed to it?

 

[Ateeq]: A few weeks ago some brothers noticed that the United Rentals property on Levy Rd. went on sale for $1.5M. Its similarity in size to the Masjid Bilal lot and the relatively cheap price prompted them to ask the question, "Could we move into this place to avoid renting our current facility which we are quickly outgrowing, while the construction of Masjid Bilal completes?" The idea found some support and hence a group of individuals decided to explore it further.

 

2.       AR Riaz bhai: If we rent the current facility for one more year, do we still need to restore it?

 

[In Progress]

 

3.       What is the remaining cost of the MB project if we continue building according to the initial plan?

 

[Br. Riaz]: Working with contractor to come up with the latest quotes;  the contractor will present the different configurations and associated costs to us soon in person. Based on the current bids from the contractor, it will cost about 1.8M to build Full parking lot, Full foundation pad,  All utilities (Water, sewer, SMUD, PGE) and associated plumbing, complete steel structure and playground. This is a fixed cost regardless of what we choose to do on the inside.

PHASE A:Then the T.I development for Musallah (5000 sq ft, downstairs)  is $550,000 to make it total cost of $2.35M (1.8+0.55.). Can serve ISF needs of daily salat, Juma, Taraveeh, etc.

 If we do T.I development for Musallah(5000 sq ft) and school (9000 sq ft, mostly upstairs) for a total of 14000 sqft, the total T.I cost will be $884,000.00 to make it total cost of $2.7M (1.8+0.88)  Can serve both ISF and FCS needs. Note: The TI development cost for upstairs is almost half of downstairs.

PHASE B: The building can be expanded(T.I)  In the future by another 14000 sqft (for things like kitchen, assembly halls, etc., separate ladies musallah, library, etc  in the future at an average  cost of $65/ sq ft ).

 

 

4.       How long will the construction of MB take once we secure the loan?

 

1.5 years from the time we resume construction for Phase A. The most challenging part of construction such as grading, retaining walls, etc. is already done, Alhamdulillaah.

 

5.       What amount are we seeking the loan for? And what amount do we expect to raise in the form of donations?

 

We have applied for a loan of $1.5M and raise the remainder in donations. Based on our past experience and duas it is reasonableto  expect about $1M in donations within 1.5 to 2 years. We will also continue to raise funds to pay off our loan in couple of years  Inshallah.

 

6.       Do we have any outstanding debt on the Masjid Bilal project? If so, how much, to whom (bank, individuals, etc.) and when does it need to be paid by?

 

We have 2 kinds of debts on the MB project, at present:

a) Pending payments for the masonry wall contractor in the amount of $100K payable in the next 10 months.

b) Qardh hasanah (interest-free loans) by individuals in the community in the amount of $548K, with a flexible payment plan. These loans were incurred to avoid stop-and-start construction costs of the west retaining wall which would have been far greater.  Who knows, once the construction starts and/or even before that  these individuals may waive part of this. They have done that in the past!

 

7.       In this exploration phase, we are merely investigating some of the possible options. But once this data-gathering is complete, we will eventually have to decide on the way forward. Which decision-making model do we want to follow when choosing between the different options? a) Voting between all members of the community, b) voting by community-appointed/agreed upon representatives, c) current ISF board, d) other?

 

In the past, all major decisions pertaining to ISF were arrived at by the ISF Board through mutual consultation and in the best interest of the community. Similarly, even in this case, the decision will be taken by the ISF Board Inshallah after informing the community of all aspects and getting their feedback.

 

 

8.       An important factor in this process is also the "urgency" or "time-value" of the solution. How much longer can we afford to wait given the growing needs of the community? Do we have a backup plan if God-Forbid we lose one of our rental arrangements?

 

9.       What is the Shari' ruling on selling the Masjid Bilal property if for some reason we choose to abandon the project?

 

10.   What is our long-term plan for being debt-free?

 

11.  What papers are submitted for loan and who are the sponsors?

 

12.  What are terms and conditions from the sponsors?

 

13.  Can the community have face to face meetings with the sponsors to understand their interest in the MB project?

 

14.  How will the community take to pay off the debt? How long will it take? Please have answer backed by real historical data.  

 

15.  How much community have to pay (final payment including all fees) when ISF is done with the last payment?

 

16.   Are there any concerns with the UR facility being close to the cement-fix factory? Noise pollution aspects.

 

 

Misc. Comments:

 

1.       Adapted from comments by Br. Junaid and Br. Dia:

While we don't see a real alternative in sight, we should note the preference to not build our Masjid using a loan, even if it is "Shariah-compliant". The idea behind this preference is to avoid any gray areas and also to minimize liability to our community.

 

2.       Adapted from comments by Br. Junaid:

We realize that while the building is an important asset of our community, the activities that cater to and nourish our community are more important. We must therefore keep in mind when taking on any loans, that our programs and activities are not compromised as a result.

 

--

[Junaid]

Br Ateeq,
SAK,

Mashallah, the FAQ list is quite exhaustive;
it pretty much covers most aspects of this very crucial discusssion on
MB.

In order to make it more effective;
All FAQs with a question; must have an owner and an ETA assigned;
they need to be deligently followed up to a closure.
The closure may be a comprehensive answer or a document posted.

For Eg. for question #7;
The ISF By-laws/Regulations must be posted that answers this question
in some detail;
If none exists then we need to have one before moving forward.
it is not enough to say the process exists and was used in the past to
make decisions and close the question.

Most of the other FAQs are basically open-ended questions; that must
be answered.

just my 2 cents

WS,
-Junaid

[Abdul Momen]

Alhumdulliah, Very important question raised by Br Junaid about the decision making process in ISF. I personally believe that all comminity members should have equal rights in giving their openion and decision will be made by the majority.  I believe, we should take written openion   and at the end,  total number from each side will be posted.

 

I seek forgiveness if I said anything wrong.

Momen

---

From: Junaid <junai...@gmail.com>
To: isfmasjid <isfm...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 3:26:34 PM
Subject: [isfmasjid:150] Re: FAQ's as of today (10/27/10)

[M Ahmed]

In reference to Question#7 in FAQ's ....

I agree all the decisions were taken by ISF board earlier and I also agree that all those on the board are doing great job alhamdullilaah ....  But I have to say apart from this discussion that's going on these days no one asked me about my opinions from past 3 years or from the time I moved to Folsom ....  I always came to know that this decision or that decision was taken after everything was completed ... 

Please don't get it wrong I'm not pointing fingers at anyone but I'm suggesting we need to have a democratic system in place where everyone's voice is heard .. We live in this country and cherish the values of democracy it has .. Just today most of us voted Alhamdullilaah, they got a chance to elect people of their choice then why not we inherit the same values and have the same democratic system for ISF Board where community elects members onto the board ... Why not empower the community ...  why not?

Please correct me if you think I said anything wrong here .....

Salaam,

Moiz

[isf...@yahoo.com]

Assalamu alaikum Bhai Moiz

Let's talk.

Riaz

Never a dull moment

Sent from my iPhone

[Mohammad, Hafeez A]

Asak Moiz Bhai,

Democracy, elections etc.  … that ain’t going to happen… at ISF…..won’t fly, impractical

Good luck J

 

Hafeez

[Rafi]

Asakm Bro's 

Let's keep the discussion on this mailing group to its intended purpose of finding a place.  We can work on one issue at a time.  InshaAllah every one has the same intention "Do what is best for the community". Let's keep emotions in check and fix one issue at a time.  If we try to fix everything at once, we will lose focus and none of them will get the attention it deserves.

Ws

Rafi

[Abdul Hadi G.Pasha]

My 2cents … just my personal opinion:

 

Alhamdulillah, I have been very fortunate be part of this wonderful ISF community for the past 13+ years or so, where Peace, Love and Brotherhood radiate. This is a rare place MashaAllah, (in a very good sense), where there are many Huffaz in a any given gathering, may it be in the Musallah, may it be in a daawat or may it be in the Volley ball court J. I feel like it is my fortune and privilege to be part of it and thoroughly enjoying the benefits and bounties. I have never had any issue here with any of the decisions taken by the ISF so far, I think - it is because the decisions are made in accordance with Quran & Hadees and with the consultation of respected Ulema in the northern California.

 

There are few famous quotes that I remind myself - paraphrasing them …

 

·         Ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country

·         Translating a local quote from Telugu language in India  – A nation is not about land / soil, but it about the people who live there.

 

 

 

Having said that – I respect everyone’s opinion on this list.

May Allah guide us all on the straight path. Aameen.

 

 

JZKK

Pasha

 

---

From: hafeez.a...@intel.com
To: isfm...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 23:16:29 -0600
Subject: RE: [isfmasjid:157] Re: FAQ's as of today (10/27/10)

[Noorr Khann]

Moiz has a valid question and I respect that but I agree with Rafi lets resolve issues one at a time.   JZK   Noor --- On Tue, 11/2/10, Rafi <knnpre...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ateeq Ahmed]

Some personal observations (my 2 cents):

 

1. In addition to being delicate and divisive, like Br. Rafi said, this topic is tangential to the discussion at hand. For now, let's focus on the work that needs to be done, the unknowns that need to be explored, the funds that need to be raised, etc. When it comes down to the decision-making portion of this issue, we can discuss any differences of opinion and go into how we want to resolve them. But let's not politicize the important problem we're trying to solve.

Point: Let's have this discussion at another time/place

 

2. Like they say, "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". I have seen and heard of multiple communities that went down this road and ended in nasty power-struggles, coups by deviant groups, etc. at times, causing the masjid to close down, and at the very least, leaving a bad taste in the community and individuals involved. We seek Allah's protection from any such fitnah within our beautiful community. So unless there is a compelling reason to do so, let's not risk our unity and brotherhood trying to "fix" something minor.

Point: Unless you have strong reason to do so, don't open this can of worms.

 

3. We also have to understand that majority is not always right, and that some topics are not up for discussion and are better left to the ulema, experienced invdividuals in those areas, etc. Eg: We could have a public vote on what should be the time for Isha during the winter to see what's convenient for the majority of the community. But we cannot have a vote on whether men and women can pray side-by-side, or the language of the khutbah, etc. that's for Ulema to decide, just like how we leave the drawings and layout to the architect. If we rely on the public to make all decisions we could easily go wrong.

 

I agree with the genuine need for better communication, gathering feedback, transparency, etc. but we have to draw intelligent limits, otherwise it becomes a case of the urdu saying "aa bayl mujhe maar" (hey bull, come and get me)  :).

 

 

 

 

---

From: Abdul Hadi G.Pasha <ahp...@hotmail.com>
To: isfm...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 11:17:41 PM
Subject: RE: [isfmasjid:159] Re: FAQ's as of today (10/27/10)

[tamer ahmed]

AA,   I kept out of all this conversation, but I can't anymore:   Staying focused on one topic at a time is good, I am all for it, but all the ISF leaders must acknowledge that ISF decision making process doesn't allow community rule. I agree with Br. Ateeq that some stuff can't be voted on, but the majority of our daily business in running the ISF can be voted on.  The arguement of having power struggles leaving back tastes...etc. is possibly there, but also the feeling that the community in general is hopeless because they can't change the direction of an organization because there is no avenue for such a thing is more devastating.  I give you the example look at successful centers around the country, MCA, Universal School, Dar Al-Hijra in DC, they are minarates in the US because "the community" can elect leaders and change the direction of an orgainzation if they see a change is needed. The argument that elections is not islamic is not valid.  Look how at how the 4 Khalifs were choosen.  I ask all of you to talk to Sh. Aamir to find out.  Sayedena Abu Bakr (RA) was not choosen but the Muhajereen picked 2 people and the Ansar picked a leader, they got together and debated and they picked Abu Bakr.  The 2nd Khalifa was choosen by Sayedena Abu Bakr (RA).  Othman (RA) was choosen when Sayedena Omar picked 10 people including his son to choose the next leader.  In addition, men went around Madina to ask people who they wanted between Othman (RA) and Ali Ibn Abu Talib (RA).  They went and asked women and children.  Look at the different ways the first 3 Khulafa were choosen.  Bottom line in Islam, IF SOMETHING WORK THAT DOESN'T CONTRADICT SHARIA, IT IS OK TO ADOPT.  --- On Wed, 11/3/10, Ateeq Ahmed <ateeqh...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[tamer ahmed]

Sorry, somehow the e-mail was sent before I was done   Nobody is asking to change the Sharia (Islamic Jursiprudence), however changing the direction of management style of the ISF should be as high of a priority as deciding which option to go for (UR or MBL).  Unless a feeling by the community that there is a direction toward this goal, the ISF as a community will continue to have these issues. There must be a clear mechanisim of how decisions are made in the ISF.  Delegation to the lowest possible level is a key to progress. I heard the argument that management has right and the authority to change the direction of a project at Intel.  I totally agree, but management is held accountable by the Board and the board of directors at intel is VOTED by the share holders and the share holders don't invest if they feel the company is not going in the right direction.  It is as simple as that. I don't think anybody here doesn't want to give the due credit to the hard work done by the people running the ISF, nor they want a drastic change, but a change is needed to allow a change in direction if the change is felt and is necessary FROM THE COMMUNITY.   I am sorry.  Salams for Bakersfield.   Tamer --- On Wed, 11/3/10, tamer ahmed <tamer_a...@yahoo.com> wrote: