100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
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Pacifist
Sep 22, 2009, 12:18:44 AM9/22/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Ba Salaam,
The readers of this NG with an interest in Zoroastrianism, may be
interested in the book "Sad Dar" (one hundred doors), which is a
practical manual to the practice of the good religion.
You can find its English translations in numerous places on the web,
for
example the following two sites which are, respectively, Zoroastrian
and
Hindu.
http://www.avesta.org/pahlavi/saddar.html
http://hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/zoroscripts/saddar.htm
Quote
Translated by E. W. West, from Sacred Books of the East, volume 24,
Clarendon Press, 1885. "As its name implies the Sad Dar is a treatise
on
'a hundred subjects' connected with the Zoroastrian religion. The
word
dar, literally 'door, or gate,' being also applied to the chapters of
a
book, and to the 'matters, or subjects,' of which it treats."
Unquote
There are a lot of practical hints for the aspiring Zartoshti. For
example:
Chapter 14. How nail-parings should be treated, and why. In case you
were wondering, "Ohrmazd, the good and propitious, has created a bird
which they call Asho-zusht, and they call it the bird of Vohuman.
They
also call it the owl, and it eats nails."
Obviously the gracious founders of the Good Religion were early
ornithologists.
Chapter 17. Why a toothpick must be cut free from bark.
The explanation, which had escaped me until I read it here is "For if
a
small quantity of bark be on it when they apply it to the teeth, and
they cast it away, if a pregnant woman puts her foot upon it, the
danger
of that may be that the child comes to harm."
Chapter 24. Why and how Hom juice must be given to a new-born
child.
(Hom Juice, also known as Haoma, is an intoxicating drink. see
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=haoma )
Chapter 38. We must not drink from the same cup as those of a
different
religion, until it is purified.... hmmmm....mmm where did we hear
this
one before? What goes around certainly comes around :-(
For the ladies amongst you it is essential to carefully read and
follow
Chapter 41. "The care and prayers necessary for menstruous women...."
Mensturation is clearly a good time for you to do a bit of
weight-watching as it says "it is greatly requisite to avoid a
menstruous woman, while they give her bread and food moderately. As
soon as she is not able to eat they should not give her more, and in
the
same manner as regards water, on this account, that whatever remnant
comes from that menstruous woman does not come to any use. "
Also, ladies, please try not to touch anything or even set eyes on
things...here's what the sacred text says about you during your
monthly
cycles:
"When they wish to provide bread they put the hand into the sleeve,
or
they place something on the top of the sleeve, and it is necessary
that
her bare hand should not come forth again in any place. 4. Because
every
drop of water that trickles on to a limb of a menstruous woman becomes
a
sin of three hundred stirs. 5. And it is requisite for a menstruous
woman to avoid everything that is washed with ceremony by fifteen
steps.
6. It is also necessary for her to be at least three steps distant
from
a righteous man, and on whatever her eye casts a look it diminishes
the
glory of that thing."
Ladies, just keep the heck out of the way, will ya?!!
Here's another interesting piece of advice: Ladies and gentlemen,
keep
your shoes on:
Chapter 44. Walking barefoot is a sin, and why
Some other things you should know to avoid sinning:
Chapter 69. Allowing the sun to shine on a fire, even through holes,
is
sinful ......
I don't want to spoil all the fun. You can read this for yourselves,
but I thought I just point out this one to those of you who have
spent
too long in San Fransisco and may have gone native:
Chapter 9. The sin of unnatural intercourse to be punished, by any
one,
by death on the spot.
Really, guys, you cannot do anything worse, it says: "For this is the
chief of all sins in the religion: there is no worse sin than this in
the good religion, and it is proper to call those who commit it
worthy
of death in reality."
And for those of you who think it's alright to go AC /DC with the
girlfriend, well it ain't: " And when they commit the sin with women,
it
is just the same as that with men."
Happy Observances,
P
The readers of this NG with an interest in Zoroastrianism, may be
interested in the book "Sad Dar" (one hundred doors), which is a
practical manual to the practice of the good religion.
You can find its English translations in numerous places on the web,
for
example the following two sites which are, respectively, Zoroastrian
and
Hindu.
http://www.avesta.org/pahlavi/saddar.html
http://hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/zoroscripts/saddar.htm
Quote
Translated by E. W. West, from Sacred Books of the East, volume 24,
Clarendon Press, 1885. "As its name implies the Sad Dar is a treatise
on
'a hundred subjects' connected with the Zoroastrian religion. The
word
dar, literally 'door, or gate,' being also applied to the chapters of
a
book, and to the 'matters, or subjects,' of which it treats."
Unquote
There are a lot of practical hints for the aspiring Zartoshti. For
example:
Chapter 14. How nail-parings should be treated, and why. In case you
were wondering, "Ohrmazd, the good and propitious, has created a bird
which they call Asho-zusht, and they call it the bird of Vohuman.
They
also call it the owl, and it eats nails."
Obviously the gracious founders of the Good Religion were early
ornithologists.
Chapter 17. Why a toothpick must be cut free from bark.
The explanation, which had escaped me until I read it here is "For if
a
small quantity of bark be on it when they apply it to the teeth, and
they cast it away, if a pregnant woman puts her foot upon it, the
danger
of that may be that the child comes to harm."
Chapter 24. Why and how Hom juice must be given to a new-born
child.
(Hom Juice, also known as Haoma, is an intoxicating drink. see
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=haoma )
Chapter 38. We must not drink from the same cup as those of a
different
religion, until it is purified.... hmmmm....mmm where did we hear
this
one before? What goes around certainly comes around :-(
For the ladies amongst you it is essential to carefully read and
follow
Chapter 41. "The care and prayers necessary for menstruous women...."
Mensturation is clearly a good time for you to do a bit of
weight-watching as it says "it is greatly requisite to avoid a
menstruous woman, while they give her bread and food moderately. As
soon as she is not able to eat they should not give her more, and in
the
same manner as regards water, on this account, that whatever remnant
comes from that menstruous woman does not come to any use. "
Also, ladies, please try not to touch anything or even set eyes on
things...here's what the sacred text says about you during your
monthly
cycles:
"When they wish to provide bread they put the hand into the sleeve,
or
they place something on the top of the sleeve, and it is necessary
that
her bare hand should not come forth again in any place. 4. Because
every
drop of water that trickles on to a limb of a menstruous woman becomes
a
sin of three hundred stirs. 5. And it is requisite for a menstruous
woman to avoid everything that is washed with ceremony by fifteen
steps.
6. It is also necessary for her to be at least three steps distant
from
a righteous man, and on whatever her eye casts a look it diminishes
the
glory of that thing."
Ladies, just keep the heck out of the way, will ya?!!
Here's another interesting piece of advice: Ladies and gentlemen,
keep
your shoes on:
Chapter 44. Walking barefoot is a sin, and why
Some other things you should know to avoid sinning:
Chapter 69. Allowing the sun to shine on a fire, even through holes,
is
sinful ......
I don't want to spoil all the fun. You can read this for yourselves,
but I thought I just point out this one to those of you who have
spent
too long in San Fransisco and may have gone native:
Chapter 9. The sin of unnatural intercourse to be punished, by any
one,
by death on the spot.
Really, guys, you cannot do anything worse, it says: "For this is the
chief of all sins in the religion: there is no worse sin than this in
the good religion, and it is proper to call those who commit it
worthy
of death in reality."
And for those of you who think it's alright to go AC /DC with the
girlfriend, well it ain't: " And when they commit the sin with women,
it
is just the same as that with men."
Happy Observances,
P
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 2:47:26 AM9/23/09
to Iranian-Demo...@googlegroups.com
Mr Pacifist,
Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
http://www.oshihan.org/IndexPersian.htm
http://www..ahuramazda.com/
So most of those notes on the subject book are from "Vandidad" which are pre-Zoroastrian Arian culture that Zoroaster was actually fighting them! The Gatas unlike all other scriptures have no fanatic ridiculous jokes! But we can never rely on any book that some Mr. Joe so called Zoroastrian writes / or whoever claims to be Zoroastrian with a hidden agenda!
Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so...
And I thought to post the following quotes from Quran itself (not some book) that you may find interesting (don't miss them on the bottom).
Have fun, Tara
فانکحوا ما طاب لکم من النساء مثنی وثلاث ورباع"
مرد می تواند تا چهار زن برای خود اختیار کند
از میان زنانی که مناسب شما می آیند (می توانید)دو - سه یا چهار زن اختیار کنید (آیه 3سوره نساء
نساء 24
فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَریضَةً
پس هر گاه از خانمها بهره جنسی بردید پاداش آنها را به آنها بدهید.
النبأ : 33
إِنَّ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ مَفَازًا(31)
حَدَائقَ وَ أَعْنَابًا(32)
وَ كَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَابًا(33
مسلّماً براى پرهيزگاران نجات و پيروزى بزرگى است: (31
وبرای آنهاست باغهايى سرسبز، و انواع انگورها، (32
و حوريانى با سینه های نرم و بزرگو همسن و سال، (33
در سوره 28 توبه می گوید ای مومنان مشرکان نجسندونباید از این پس به مسجد الحرام وارد شوند واگر شما از کاهش
آیه282 بقره:".....فان لم یکونا رجلین فرجل وامراتان"
شاهد باید دو مرد یا یک مرد ودو زن باشد در واقع در اسلام ارزش شهادت یک مرد مساوی با دو زن قرار داده شده است
مردان از زنان بهترند (برترند)
آیه: "وللرجال علیهن درجه (228 بقره
اگر زنان نافرمانی کردند آنها را بزنید34/ نساء
" واللاتی تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن فی المضاجع فاضربوهن
ریشه کن کردن آیین های ایرانی:رسول خدا صلی الله علیه وآله فرمودند : دو روز از روزهای شما را خداوند تبارک و تعالی با دو روز دیگر تعویض کرد :روز نوروز و روز مهرگان را با عید فطر و عید قربان .
مستدركالوسائل 6 153
طبق آیه 36 ونیزآیه 50 تا 52 سوره احزاب
در باب امورات زناشویی پیامبر اکرم:
آیه 36 " وما کان لمومن ولا مومنه اذا قضی الله ورسوله امرا ان یکون لهم الخیره من امرهم ومن یعص الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالا مبینا
اما آیه 50 تا 52 : یا ایها النبی انا احللنا لک ازواجک اللاتی آتیت اجورهن وما ملکت یمینک مما افاء الله علیک وبنات عمک وبنات عماتک وبنات خالک وبنات خالاتک اللاتی هاجرن معک وامراة مومنة ان وهبت نفسها للنبی ان اراد النبی ان یستنکحها خالصة لک من دون المومنین قد علمنا ما فرضنا علیهم فی ازواجهم وما ملکت ایمانهم لکیلا یکون علیک حرج وکان الله غفورا رحیما ﴿50﴾ترجی من تشاء منهن وتووی الیک من تشاء ومن ابتغیت ممن عزلت فلا جناح علیک ذلک ادنی ان تقر اعینهن ولا یحزن ویرضین بما آتیتهن کلهن والله یعلم ما فی قلوبکم وکان الله علیما حلیما ﴿51﴾لا یحل لک
النساء من بعد ولا ان تبدل بهن من ازواج ولو اعجبک حسنهن الا ما ملکت یمینک وکان الله علی کل شیء رقیب
در سوره تحریم آیه یک آمده : ای پیغمبر چرا چیزی را که خدا بر تو حلال کرده بر خود حرام می کنی که منظور کنیز(دین برده داران؟) مصری ماریه قبطیه بوده است رسول خدا(صلى الله عليه وآله) به خانه بعضى از همسرانش مى رفت و ماريه قبطيه در خدمت ايشان بود و به ايشان خدمت مى كرد و در آن روز در خانه حفصه بود و حفصه به سبب حاجتى بيرون رفته بود پس پيامبراكرم با ماريه نزديكى كرد و حفصه از اين ماجرا مطلع شد و با حالتى خشمناك رو به سوى پيامبر كرد و گفت: اى رسول خدا! شما اين كار را در نوبت من و در خانه و بستر من انجام داديد؟ پس پيامبراكرم از حفصه حيا كرده و فرمود:
كافى است، زيرا من ماريه را بر خودم حرام ساختم و بعد از اين هرگز با وى نزديكى نخواهم كرد
خیلی جاهها در قرآن نوشته که به بهشتی ها پسران ودختران زیبا می دهند ( هزاران باکره احتمالا زیر 10 سال!!)
بِأَكْوَابٍ وَأَبَارِيقَ وَكَأْسٍ مِّن مَّعِين"و
در بهشت برای مردان بهشتی دختران وحوریان زیباست این حوریان جزوی از پاداش خداوند به آنهاست
"زمين را به شکل بستري مسطح آفريديم "(نباء، ۶) و "خورشيد درچشمه آب تيره اي غروب ميکند " ( کهف، ٨۶ ) ، و "آسمان را نگاه ميداريم که روي زمين نيفتد، مگر وقتيکه خود ما چنين اراده کرده باشيم " (حج، ۶۵ ) و " کوههارا مانند ميخ درزمين فرو کرديم که ستونهاي آسمان باشند" ( نباء ٧) ، و " پروردگار دومشرق و دو مغرب (الرحمن، فف ١٧ ) و " پروردگار مشرق ها" (صافات،
آنچه درقرآن درباره گردش ماه و تغيير شکل آن از هلال به بدر و از بدربه هلال آمده، نظير آنچه درمورد سبقت روز برشب و دوري خورشيد از ماه آمده به همين اندازه ناپذيرفتني است: "... و نه خورشيد را اجازه داديم که به ماه برسد، ونه شب را که بر روز سبقت گيرد (يس، ۴٠
________________________________
دستور کشتن اهل بغی ومنافقین
آیات اول سوره توبه / این آیات مربوط به کشتن کفار غیر کتابی ها است که اینها نزد خداوند هیچ جایگاه وشان وخلاقی ندارند:
اعوذ بالله من الشیطان الرجیم برائة من الله و رسوله الی الذین عاهدتم من المشرکین فسیحوا فی الارض اربعة اشهر و اعلموا انکم غیر معجزی الله و ان الله مخزی الکافرین و اذان من الله و رسوله الی الناس یوم الحج الاکبر ان الله بریء من المشرکین و رسوله فان تبتم فهو خیر لکم و ان تولیتم فاعلموا انکم غیر معجزی الله و بشر الذین کفروا بعذاب الیم الا الذین عاهدتم من المشرکین ثم لم ینقضوکم شیئا و لم یظاهروا علیکم احدا فاتموا الیهم عهدهم الی مدتهم ان الله یحب المتقین.فاذا انسلخ الاشهر الحرم فاقتلوا المشرکین حیث وجدتموهم و خذوهم و احصروهم و اقعدوا
لهم کل مرصد فان تابوا و اقاموا الصلاة و آتوا الزکاة فخلوا سبیلهم ان الله غفور رحیم
در سوره 28 توبه می گوید ای مومنان مشرکان نجسندونباید از این پس به مسجد الحرام وارد شوند واگر شما از کاهش در آمد خود در هراسید خدا از فضل خودشمارا بی نیاز می سازد
سوره 29: قتال وکارزار کنید با کسانی که به الله واحکام او ایمان ندارندهمچنین بکشید آن دسته که خود اهل کتاب هستند یعنی مسیحی ویهودی وزرتشتی و.... چون هر آنچه را که خدا ورسولش حرام کرده حرام نمی دانند جرمشان فقط همین است که دین حق نمی گروند (هر کی هر چیز داره ومال خودش حقه مال دیگران دیگه باطل است ) مگرآنکه قبول کنند تا خفت وخواری وذلت به اسلام باج یعنی جزیه بدهندپس بنابراین صحبت ومشکل اصلی روی پوله!!
آیه 5 توبه: همینکه ماه حرام گذشت در کمینشان باشید بر آنها هجوم بیاورید وبکشید مشرکان را با هر نیرنگی که می توانیدچنانکه نماز بگذارند وزکات بپردازند از کشته شدن بدر می روند واز آنها بگذرید که الله غفور ورحیم است (یعنی اگر پول دادند الله دیگر غفور ورحیم می شود)
123 سوره توبه: بکشید کافران را از پس هم تا جدیت و خشم شما را احساس کنند
سوره محمد آیه 4: کفار را در هر کجا که یافتید گردن بزنید وقتی بر آنها پیروز شدید آنها را زندانی کنیدیا بعدا آنها را آزاد کنید یا بگذارید خودشان را بخرند تا اینکه جنگ به پایان رسد
سوره بقره: و هنگامى كه موسى به قوم خود گفتخدا به شما فرمان مىدهد كه ماده گاوى را سر ببريد گفتند آيا ما را به ريشخند مىگيرى گفت پناه مىبرم به خدا كه [مبادا] از جاهلان باشم (67)
سوره بقره: گفتند پروردگارت را براى ما بخوان تا بر ما روشن سازد كه آن چگونه [گاوى] است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است نه پير و نه خردسال [بلكه] ميانسالى است بين اين دو پس آنچه را [بدان] ماموريد به جاى آريد (68)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن كند كه رنگش چگونه است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است زرد يكدست و خالص كه رنگش بينندگان را شاد مىكند (69)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن گرداند كه آن چگونه [گاوى] باشد زيرا [چگونگى] اين ماده گاو بر ما مشتبه شده و[لى با توضيحات بيشتر تو] ما ان شاء الله حتما هدايت خواهيم شد (70)
سوره بقره: گفت وى مىفرمايد در حقيقت آن ماده گاوى است كه نه رام است تا زمين را شخم زند و نه كشتزار را آبيارى كند بىنقص است و هيچ لكهاى در آن نيست گفتند اينك سخن درست آوردى پس آن را سر بريدند و چيزى نمانده بود كه نكنند(71)
سوره بقره: و چون شخصى را كشتيد و در باره او با يكديگر به ستيزه برخاستيد و حال آنكه خدا آنچه را كتمان مىكرديد آشكار گردانيد (72)
سوره بقره: پس فرموديم پارهاى از آن [گاو سر بريده را] به آن [مقتول] بزنيد [تا زنده شود]اين گونه خدا مردگان را زنده مىكند و آيات خود را به شما مىنماياند باشد كه بينديشيد (73)
بر اساس آیه ۲۹سوره معارج و سوره مومنون :
مومنین آلت جنسی خود را از همه چیز حفظ میکنند مگر از هسران خود وکنیزان( برده ) خود . و هر کس از این دو مورد تعدی و تجاوز بکند و آلت جنسی خود را ازغیر این دو مورد حفظ نکند از حدود خدا و احکام خدا تعدی و تجاوز کرده است .
آیه 61 سوره احزاب: کفار را بیرحمانه بکشید
آیه : "ملعونینَ اینما ثقفوا اُخذوا وقتّلوا تقتیلا "
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Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
http://www.oshihan.org/IndexPersian.htm
http://www..ahuramazda.com/
So most of those notes on the subject book are from "Vandidad" which are pre-Zoroastrian Arian culture that Zoroaster was actually fighting them! The Gatas unlike all other scriptures have no fanatic ridiculous jokes! But we can never rely on any book that some Mr. Joe so called Zoroastrian writes / or whoever claims to be Zoroastrian with a hidden agenda!
Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so...
And I thought to post the following quotes from Quran itself (not some book) that you may find interesting (don't miss them on the bottom).
Have fun, Tara
فانکحوا ما طاب لکم من النساء مثنی وثلاث ورباع"
مرد می تواند تا چهار زن برای خود اختیار کند
از میان زنانی که مناسب شما می آیند (می توانید)دو - سه یا چهار زن اختیار کنید (آیه 3سوره نساء
نساء 24
فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَریضَةً
پس هر گاه از خانمها بهره جنسی بردید پاداش آنها را به آنها بدهید.
النبأ : 33
إِنَّ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ مَفَازًا(31)
حَدَائقَ وَ أَعْنَابًا(32)
وَ كَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَابًا(33
مسلّماً براى پرهيزگاران نجات و پيروزى بزرگى است: (31
وبرای آنهاست باغهايى سرسبز، و انواع انگورها، (32
و حوريانى با سینه های نرم و بزرگو همسن و سال، (33
در سوره 28 توبه می گوید ای مومنان مشرکان نجسندونباید از این پس به مسجد الحرام وارد شوند واگر شما از کاهش
آیه282 بقره:".....فان لم یکونا رجلین فرجل وامراتان"
شاهد باید دو مرد یا یک مرد ودو زن باشد در واقع در اسلام ارزش شهادت یک مرد مساوی با دو زن قرار داده شده است
مردان از زنان بهترند (برترند)
آیه: "وللرجال علیهن درجه (228 بقره
اگر زنان نافرمانی کردند آنها را بزنید34/ نساء
" واللاتی تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن فی المضاجع فاضربوهن
ریشه کن کردن آیین های ایرانی:رسول خدا صلی الله علیه وآله فرمودند : دو روز از روزهای شما را خداوند تبارک و تعالی با دو روز دیگر تعویض کرد :روز نوروز و روز مهرگان را با عید فطر و عید قربان .
مستدركالوسائل 6 153
طبق آیه 36 ونیزآیه 50 تا 52 سوره احزاب
در باب امورات زناشویی پیامبر اکرم:
آیه 36 " وما کان لمومن ولا مومنه اذا قضی الله ورسوله امرا ان یکون لهم الخیره من امرهم ومن یعص الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالا مبینا
اما آیه 50 تا 52 : یا ایها النبی انا احللنا لک ازواجک اللاتی آتیت اجورهن وما ملکت یمینک مما افاء الله علیک وبنات عمک وبنات عماتک وبنات خالک وبنات خالاتک اللاتی هاجرن معک وامراة مومنة ان وهبت نفسها للنبی ان اراد النبی ان یستنکحها خالصة لک من دون المومنین قد علمنا ما فرضنا علیهم فی ازواجهم وما ملکت ایمانهم لکیلا یکون علیک حرج وکان الله غفورا رحیما ﴿50﴾ترجی من تشاء منهن وتووی الیک من تشاء ومن ابتغیت ممن عزلت فلا جناح علیک ذلک ادنی ان تقر اعینهن ولا یحزن ویرضین بما آتیتهن کلهن والله یعلم ما فی قلوبکم وکان الله علیما حلیما ﴿51﴾لا یحل لک
النساء من بعد ولا ان تبدل بهن من ازواج ولو اعجبک حسنهن الا ما ملکت یمینک وکان الله علی کل شیء رقیب
در سوره تحریم آیه یک آمده : ای پیغمبر چرا چیزی را که خدا بر تو حلال کرده بر خود حرام می کنی که منظور کنیز(دین برده داران؟) مصری ماریه قبطیه بوده است رسول خدا(صلى الله عليه وآله) به خانه بعضى از همسرانش مى رفت و ماريه قبطيه در خدمت ايشان بود و به ايشان خدمت مى كرد و در آن روز در خانه حفصه بود و حفصه به سبب حاجتى بيرون رفته بود پس پيامبراكرم با ماريه نزديكى كرد و حفصه از اين ماجرا مطلع شد و با حالتى خشمناك رو به سوى پيامبر كرد و گفت: اى رسول خدا! شما اين كار را در نوبت من و در خانه و بستر من انجام داديد؟ پس پيامبراكرم از حفصه حيا كرده و فرمود:
كافى است، زيرا من ماريه را بر خودم حرام ساختم و بعد از اين هرگز با وى نزديكى نخواهم كرد
خیلی جاهها در قرآن نوشته که به بهشتی ها پسران ودختران زیبا می دهند ( هزاران باکره احتمالا زیر 10 سال!!)
بِأَكْوَابٍ وَأَبَارِيقَ وَكَأْسٍ مِّن مَّعِين"و
در بهشت برای مردان بهشتی دختران وحوریان زیباست این حوریان جزوی از پاداش خداوند به آنهاست
"زمين را به شکل بستري مسطح آفريديم "(نباء، ۶) و "خورشيد درچشمه آب تيره اي غروب ميکند " ( کهف، ٨۶ ) ، و "آسمان را نگاه ميداريم که روي زمين نيفتد، مگر وقتيکه خود ما چنين اراده کرده باشيم " (حج، ۶۵ ) و " کوههارا مانند ميخ درزمين فرو کرديم که ستونهاي آسمان باشند" ( نباء ٧) ، و " پروردگار دومشرق و دو مغرب (الرحمن، فف ١٧ ) و " پروردگار مشرق ها" (صافات،
آنچه درقرآن درباره گردش ماه و تغيير شکل آن از هلال به بدر و از بدربه هلال آمده، نظير آنچه درمورد سبقت روز برشب و دوري خورشيد از ماه آمده به همين اندازه ناپذيرفتني است: "... و نه خورشيد را اجازه داديم که به ماه برسد، ونه شب را که بر روز سبقت گيرد (يس، ۴٠
________________________________
دستور کشتن اهل بغی ومنافقین
آیات اول سوره توبه / این آیات مربوط به کشتن کفار غیر کتابی ها است که اینها نزد خداوند هیچ جایگاه وشان وخلاقی ندارند:
اعوذ بالله من الشیطان الرجیم برائة من الله و رسوله الی الذین عاهدتم من المشرکین فسیحوا فی الارض اربعة اشهر و اعلموا انکم غیر معجزی الله و ان الله مخزی الکافرین و اذان من الله و رسوله الی الناس یوم الحج الاکبر ان الله بریء من المشرکین و رسوله فان تبتم فهو خیر لکم و ان تولیتم فاعلموا انکم غیر معجزی الله و بشر الذین کفروا بعذاب الیم الا الذین عاهدتم من المشرکین ثم لم ینقضوکم شیئا و لم یظاهروا علیکم احدا فاتموا الیهم عهدهم الی مدتهم ان الله یحب المتقین.فاذا انسلخ الاشهر الحرم فاقتلوا المشرکین حیث وجدتموهم و خذوهم و احصروهم و اقعدوا
لهم کل مرصد فان تابوا و اقاموا الصلاة و آتوا الزکاة فخلوا سبیلهم ان الله غفور رحیم
در سوره 28 توبه می گوید ای مومنان مشرکان نجسندونباید از این پس به مسجد الحرام وارد شوند واگر شما از کاهش در آمد خود در هراسید خدا از فضل خودشمارا بی نیاز می سازد
سوره 29: قتال وکارزار کنید با کسانی که به الله واحکام او ایمان ندارندهمچنین بکشید آن دسته که خود اهل کتاب هستند یعنی مسیحی ویهودی وزرتشتی و.... چون هر آنچه را که خدا ورسولش حرام کرده حرام نمی دانند جرمشان فقط همین است که دین حق نمی گروند (هر کی هر چیز داره ومال خودش حقه مال دیگران دیگه باطل است ) مگرآنکه قبول کنند تا خفت وخواری وذلت به اسلام باج یعنی جزیه بدهندپس بنابراین صحبت ومشکل اصلی روی پوله!!
آیه 5 توبه: همینکه ماه حرام گذشت در کمینشان باشید بر آنها هجوم بیاورید وبکشید مشرکان را با هر نیرنگی که می توانیدچنانکه نماز بگذارند وزکات بپردازند از کشته شدن بدر می روند واز آنها بگذرید که الله غفور ورحیم است (یعنی اگر پول دادند الله دیگر غفور ورحیم می شود)
123 سوره توبه: بکشید کافران را از پس هم تا جدیت و خشم شما را احساس کنند
سوره محمد آیه 4: کفار را در هر کجا که یافتید گردن بزنید وقتی بر آنها پیروز شدید آنها را زندانی کنیدیا بعدا آنها را آزاد کنید یا بگذارید خودشان را بخرند تا اینکه جنگ به پایان رسد
سوره بقره: و هنگامى كه موسى به قوم خود گفتخدا به شما فرمان مىدهد كه ماده گاوى را سر ببريد گفتند آيا ما را به ريشخند مىگيرى گفت پناه مىبرم به خدا كه [مبادا] از جاهلان باشم (67)
سوره بقره: گفتند پروردگارت را براى ما بخوان تا بر ما روشن سازد كه آن چگونه [گاوى] است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است نه پير و نه خردسال [بلكه] ميانسالى است بين اين دو پس آنچه را [بدان] ماموريد به جاى آريد (68)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن كند كه رنگش چگونه است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است زرد يكدست و خالص كه رنگش بينندگان را شاد مىكند (69)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن گرداند كه آن چگونه [گاوى] باشد زيرا [چگونگى] اين ماده گاو بر ما مشتبه شده و[لى با توضيحات بيشتر تو] ما ان شاء الله حتما هدايت خواهيم شد (70)
سوره بقره: گفت وى مىفرمايد در حقيقت آن ماده گاوى است كه نه رام است تا زمين را شخم زند و نه كشتزار را آبيارى كند بىنقص است و هيچ لكهاى در آن نيست گفتند اينك سخن درست آوردى پس آن را سر بريدند و چيزى نمانده بود كه نكنند(71)
سوره بقره: و چون شخصى را كشتيد و در باره او با يكديگر به ستيزه برخاستيد و حال آنكه خدا آنچه را كتمان مىكرديد آشكار گردانيد (72)
سوره بقره: پس فرموديم پارهاى از آن [گاو سر بريده را] به آن [مقتول] بزنيد [تا زنده شود]اين گونه خدا مردگان را زنده مىكند و آيات خود را به شما مىنماياند باشد كه بينديشيد (73)
بر اساس آیه ۲۹سوره معارج و سوره مومنون :
مومنین آلت جنسی خود را از همه چیز حفظ میکنند مگر از هسران خود وکنیزان( برده ) خود . و هر کس از این دو مورد تعدی و تجاوز بکند و آلت جنسی خود را ازغیر این دو مورد حفظ نکند از حدود خدا و احکام خدا تعدی و تجاوز کرده است .
آیه 61 سوره احزاب: کفار را بیرحمانه بکشید
آیه : "ملعونینَ اینما ثقفوا اُخذوا وقتّلوا تقتیلا "
________________________________
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tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 2:42:20 AM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Mr Pacifist,
Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence.....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
http://www.oshihan.org/IndexPersian.htm
http://www.ahuramazda.com/
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
http://www.oshihan.org/IndexPersian.htm
So most of those notes on the subject book are from "Vandidad" which are pre-Zoroastrian Arian culture that Zoroaster was actually fighting them! The Gatas unlike all other scriptures have no fanatic ridiculous jokes! But we can never rely on any book that some Mr. Joe so called Zoroastrian writes / or whoever claims to be Zoroastrian with a hidden agenda!
Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so....
آیه 5 توبه: همینکه ماه حرام گذشت در کمینشان باشید بر آنها هجوم بیاورید وبکشید مشرکان را با هر نیرنگی که می توانیدچنانکه نماز بگذارند وزکات بپردازند از کشته شدن بدر می روند واز آنها بگذرید که الله غفور ورحیم است (یعنی اگر پول دادند الله دیگر غفور ورحیم می شود)
123 سوره توبه: بکشید کافران را از پس هم تا جدیت و خشم شما را احساس کنند
سوره محمد آیه 4: کفار را در هر کجا که یافتید گردن بزنید وقتی بر آنها پیروز شدید آنها را زندانی کنیدیا بعدا آنها را آزاد کنید یا بگذارید خودشان را بخرند تا اینکه جنگ به پایان رسد
سوره بقره: و هنگامى كه موسى به قوم خود گفتخدا به شما فرمان مىدهد كه ماده گاوى را سر ببريد گفتند آيا ما را به ريشخند مىگيرى گفت پناه مىبرم به خدا كه [مبادا] از جاهلان باشم (67)
سوره بقره: گفتند پروردگارت را براى ما بخوان تا بر ما روشن سازد كه آن چگونه [گاوى] است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است نه پير و نه خردسال [بلكه] ميانسالى است بين اين دو پس آنچه را [بدان] ماموريد به جاى آريد (68)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن كند كه رنگش چگونه است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است زرد يكدست و خالص كه رنگش بينندگان را شاد مىكند (69)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن گرداند كه آن چگونه [گاوى] باشد زيرا [چگونگى] اين ماده گاو بر ما مشتبه شده و[لى با توضيحات بيشتر تو] ما ان شاء الله حتما هدايت خواهيم شد (70)
سوره بقره: گفت وى مىفرمايد در حقيقت آن ماده گاوى است كه نه رام است تا زمين را شخم زند و نه كشتزار را آبيارى كند بىنقص است و هيچ لكهاى در آن نيست گفتند اينك سخن درست آوردى پس آن را سر بريدند و چيزى نمانده بود كه نكنند(71)
سوره بقره: و چون شخصى را كشتيد و در باره او با يكديگر به ستيزه برخاستيد و حال آنكه خدا آنچه را كتمان مىكرديد آشكار گردانيد (72)
سوره بقره: پس فرموديم پارهاى از آن [گاو سر بريده را] به آن [مقتول] بزنيد [تا زنده شود]اين گونه خدا مردگان را زنده مىكند و آيات خود را به شما مىنماياند باشد كه بينديشيد (73)
بر اساس آیه ۲۹سوره معارج و سوره مومنون :
مومنین آلت جنسی خود را از همه چیز حفظ میکنند مگر از هسران خود وکنیزان( برده ) خود . و هر کس از این دو مورد تعدی و تجاوز بکند و آلت جنسی خود را ازغیر این دو مورد حفظ نکند از حدود خدا و احکام خدا تعدی و تجاوز کرده است .
آیه 61 سوره احزاب: کفار را بیرحمانه بکشید
آیه : "ملعونینَ اینما ثقفوا اُخذوا وقتّلوا تقتیلا "
________________________________
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:18:44 AM
Subject: [IDF] 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
123 سوره توبه: بکشید کافران را از پس هم تا جدیت و خشم شما را احساس کنند
سوره محمد آیه 4: کفار را در هر کجا که یافتید گردن بزنید وقتی بر آنها پیروز شدید آنها را زندانی کنیدیا بعدا آنها را آزاد کنید یا بگذارید خودشان را بخرند تا اینکه جنگ به پایان رسد
سوره بقره: و هنگامى كه موسى به قوم خود گفتخدا به شما فرمان مىدهد كه ماده گاوى را سر ببريد گفتند آيا ما را به ريشخند مىگيرى گفت پناه مىبرم به خدا كه [مبادا] از جاهلان باشم (67)
سوره بقره: گفتند پروردگارت را براى ما بخوان تا بر ما روشن سازد كه آن چگونه [گاوى] است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است نه پير و نه خردسال [بلكه] ميانسالى است بين اين دو پس آنچه را [بدان] ماموريد به جاى آريد (68)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن كند كه رنگش چگونه است گفت وى مىفرمايد آن ماده گاوى است زرد يكدست و خالص كه رنگش بينندگان را شاد مىكند (69)
سوره بقره: گفتند از پروردگارت بخواه تا بر ما روشن گرداند كه آن چگونه [گاوى] باشد زيرا [چگونگى] اين ماده گاو بر ما مشتبه شده و[لى با توضيحات بيشتر تو] ما ان شاء الله حتما هدايت خواهيم شد (70)
سوره بقره: گفت وى مىفرمايد در حقيقت آن ماده گاوى است كه نه رام است تا زمين را شخم زند و نه كشتزار را آبيارى كند بىنقص است و هيچ لكهاى در آن نيست گفتند اينك سخن درست آوردى پس آن را سر بريدند و چيزى نمانده بود كه نكنند(71)
سوره بقره: و چون شخصى را كشتيد و در باره او با يكديگر به ستيزه برخاستيد و حال آنكه خدا آنچه را كتمان مىكرديد آشكار گردانيد (72)
سوره بقره: پس فرموديم پارهاى از آن [گاو سر بريده را] به آن [مقتول] بزنيد [تا زنده شود]اين گونه خدا مردگان را زنده مىكند و آيات خود را به شما مىنماياند باشد كه بينديشيد (73)
بر اساس آیه ۲۹سوره معارج و سوره مومنون :
مومنین آلت جنسی خود را از همه چیز حفظ میکنند مگر از هسران خود وکنیزان( برده ) خود . و هر کس از این دو مورد تعدی و تجاوز بکند و آلت جنسی خود را ازغیر این دو مورد حفظ نکند از حدود خدا و احکام خدا تعدی و تجاوز کرده است .
آیه 61 سوره احزاب: کفار را بیرحمانه بکشید
آیه : "ملعونینَ اینما ثقفوا اُخذوا وقتّلوا تقتیلا "
________________________________
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:18:44 AM
Subject: [IDF] 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Pacifist
Sep 23, 2009, 3:10:46 AM9/23/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Salam,
Just to be concise and precise: "Are you saying that Sad Dar does not
exist as a holy text that is practised by the Zoroastrians?"
We all know that most religions have a central text but other
important texts that people use to regulate their practises (e.g.
Judaism has the O.T. but also Talmud) and Islam has the Kuran but all
the hadith. Hence, we cannot just pretend that the other things do
not exist.
Best,
P
On Sep 23, 2:47 pm, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Mr Pacifist,
>
> Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
> Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
>
> "Ey Mazda
> Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
> Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
>
> This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
>
> Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
> however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
>
> Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
> even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
> As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
>
> So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
>
> They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
> Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
>
> "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
> Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
> اما آیه 50 تا 52 : یا ایها النبی انا احللنا لک ازواجک اللاتی آتیت اجورهن وما ملکت یمینک مما افاء الله علیک وبنات عمک وبنات عماتک وبنات خالک وبنات خالاتک اللاتی هاجرن معک وامراة مومنة ان وهبت نفسها للنبی ان اراد النبی ان یستنکحها خالصة لک من دون المومنین قد علمنا ما فرضنا علیهم فی ازواجهم وما ملکت ایمانهم لکیلا یکون علیک حرج وکان الله غفورا رحیما ﴿50﴾ترجی من تشاء منهن ...
>
> read more »
>
> درسهایی از قرآن.docx
> 67KViewDownload
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 3:16:18 AM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Doroud,
The following info on Wikopedia shed some lights on what real Iranian Shia/ Gharamate were about before the influences during Safavid / Ghajar era!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bahrain#The_Qarmatian_Republic
Please read all parts to the bottom on Qarmatians!
Best, T
----- Original Message ----
From: tara farhid-gallo <tfarhi...@yahoo.ca>
To: Iranian-Demo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:47:26 AM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Mr Pacifist,
Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi.. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
__________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
http://www.flickr.com/gift/
The following info on Wikopedia shed some lights on what real Iranian Shia/ Gharamate were about before the influences during Safavid / Ghajar era!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bahrain#The_Qarmatian_Republic
Please read all parts to the bottom on Qarmatians!
Best, T
----- Original Message ----
From: tara farhid-gallo <tfarhi...@yahoo.ca>
To: Iranian-Demo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:47:26 AM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Mr Pacifist,
Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit.. p. 29.
As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
http://www.oshihan..org/IndexPersian.htm
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
http://www..ahuramazda.com/
So most of those notes on the subject book are from "Vandidad" which are pre-Zoroastrian Arian culture that Zoroaster was actually fighting them! The Gatas unlike all other scriptures have no fanatic ridiculous jokes! But we can never rely on any book that some Mr. Joe so called Zoroastrian writes / or whoever claims to be Zoroastrian with a hidden agenda!
Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so...
And I thought to post the following quotes from Quran itself (not some book) that you may find interesting (don't miss them on the bottom).
Have fun, Tara
فانکحوا ما طاب لکم من النساء مثنی وثلاث ورباع"
مرد می تواند تا چهار زن برای خود اختیار کند
از میان زنانی که مناسب شما می آیند (می توانید)دو - سه یا چهار زن اختیار کنید (آیه 3سوره نساء
نساء 24
فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَریضَةً
پس هر گاه از خانمها بهره جنسی بردید پاداش آنها را به آنها بدهید..
So most of those notes on the subject book are from "Vandidad" which are pre-Zoroastrian Arian culture that Zoroaster was actually fighting them! The Gatas unlike all other scriptures have no fanatic ridiculous jokes! But we can never rely on any book that some Mr. Joe so called Zoroastrian writes / or whoever claims to be Zoroastrian with a hidden agenda!
Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so...
And I thought to post the following quotes from Quran itself (not some book) that you may find interesting (don't miss them on the bottom).
Have fun, Tara
فانکحوا ما طاب لکم من النساء مثنی وثلاث ورباع"
مرد می تواند تا چهار زن برای خود اختیار کند
از میان زنانی که مناسب شما می آیند (می توانید)دو - سه یا چهار زن اختیار کنید (آیه 3سوره نساء
نساء 24
فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَریضَةً
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
http://www.flickr.com/gift/
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 3:22:01 AM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Pacifist, Was not I clear enough. do you want me to speak Arabic so that you understand?! It seems that you did not bother reading my E-Mails again! I recommend to you please read carefully! and read it all! the timing that you replied basically suggested that you replied without reading! I have already addressed all your points and questions as part of my E-Mail and I have no intention to reiterate myself!
Thanks and good night it is pretty late here, Tara
----- Original Massage ----
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Thanks and good night it is pretty late here, Tara
----- Original Massage ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:10:46 AM
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Pacifist
Sep 23, 2009, 3:35:46 AM9/23/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Good night but there was not a sngle reference to "Sad Dar" in your
post!
P
On Sep 23, 3:22 pm, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Pacifist, Was not I clear enough. do you want me to speak Arabic so that you understand?! It seems that you did not bother reading my E-Mails again! I recommend to you please read carefully! and read it all! the timing that you replied basically suggested that you replied without reading! I have already addressed all your points and questions as part of my E-Mail and I have no intention to reiterate myself!
>
> Thanks and good night it is pretty late here, Tara
>
> ----- Original Massage ----
> From: Pacifist <mushroom...@hotmail.com>
> > So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.htmlhttp://en.wikip...
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
post!
P
On Sep 23, 3:22 pm, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Pacifist, Was not I clear enough. do you want me to speak Arabic so that you understand?! It seems that you did not bother reading my E-Mails again! I recommend to you please read carefully! and read it all! the timing that you replied basically suggested that you replied without reading! I have already addressed all your points and questions as part of my E-Mail and I have no intention to reiterate myself!
>
> Thanks and good night it is pretty late here, Tara
>
> ----- Original Massage ----
> >
> > They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
> > Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> > "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
> > Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
> > http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htmhttp://www.oshihan.org/I...
> > They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
> > Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> > "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
> > Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 3:31:43 AM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Okay just to make your life easier I reiterate myself: no this book written in 1885 is not a credible source in Zoroastrianism, it is based on one of pre-Zoroastrain Arian beliefs (Vandidads / Ayeen Div parasti) not Asho Zartosht's teaching. Although Vandidads are one section of Avesta and Avesta is famous being a Zoroastrian reference but are not Asho Zartosht's teachings.. Also I found the same confusion in the book written by this suspicious guy I mentioned "Humer Abramian" called "Zartosht che migooyad" which also has some references to Vandidata which are all ridiculous! I think he has some agendas and intentionally is tampering things!
Best, Tara
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Best, Tara
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:10:46 AM
Pacifist
Sep 23, 2009, 4:03:53 AM9/23/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Sorry I disagree that it is a 19th century book.
Best,
P
> > So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.htmlhttp://en.wikip...
Best,
P
> >
> > They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
> > Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> > "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
> > Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
> > http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htmhttp://www.oshihan.org/I...
> > They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
> > Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> > "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
> > Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
> > So most of those notes on the subject book are from "Vandidad" which are pre-Zoroastrian Arian culture that Zoroaster was actually fighting them! The Gatas unlike all other scriptures have no fanatic ridiculous jokes! But we can never rely on any book that some Mr. Joe so called Zoroastrian writes / or whoever claims to be Zoroastrian with a hidden agenda!
> > Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so...
> > And I thought to post the following quotes from Quran itself (not some book) that you may find interesting (don't miss them on the bottom).
> > Have fun, Tara
> >
> > فانکحوا ما طاب لکم من النساء مثنی وثلاث ورباع"
> > مرد می تواند تا چهار زن برای خود اختیار کند
> > از میان زنانی که مناسب شما می آیند (می توانید)دو - سه یا چهار زن اختیار کنید (آیه 3سوره نساء
> > نساء 24
> > فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَریضَةً
> > پس هر گاه از خانمها بهره جنسی بردید پاداش آنها را به آنها بدهید.
> > النبأ : 33
> >
> > إِنَّ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ مَفَازًا(31)
> > حَدَائقَ وَ أَعْنَابًا(32)
> > وَ كَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَابًا(33
> > مسلّماً براى پرهيزگاران نجات و پيروزى بزرگى است: (31
> > وبرای آنهاست باغهايى سرسبز، و انواع انگورها، (32
> > و حوريانى با سینه های نرم و بزرگو همسن و سال، (33
> >
> > در سوره 28 توبه می گوید ای مومنان مشرکان نجسندونباید از این پس به مسجد الحرام وارد شوند واگر شما از کاهش
> > آیه282 بقره:".....فان لم یکونا رجلین فرجل وامراتان"
> > شاهد باید دو مرد یا یک مرد ودو زن باشد در واقع در اسلام ارزش شهادت یک مرد مساوی با دو زن قرار داده شده است
> > مردان از زنان بهترند (برترند)
> > آیه: "وللرجال علیهن درجه (228 بقره
> >
> > اگر زنان نافرمانی کردند آنها را بزنید34/
>
> > Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so...
> > And I thought to post the following quotes from Quran itself (not some book) that you may find interesting (don't miss them on the bottom).
> > Have fun, Tara
> >
> > فانکحوا ما طاب لکم من النساء مثنی وثلاث ورباع"
> > مرد می تواند تا چهار زن برای خود اختیار کند
> > از میان زنانی که مناسب شما می آیند (می توانید)دو - سه یا چهار زن اختیار کنید (آیه 3سوره نساء
> > نساء 24
> > فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَریضَةً
> > پس هر گاه از خانمها بهره جنسی بردید پاداش آنها را به آنها بدهید.
> > النبأ : 33
> >
> > إِنَّ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ مَفَازًا(31)
> > حَدَائقَ وَ أَعْنَابًا(32)
> > وَ كَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَابًا(33
> > مسلّماً براى پرهيزگاران نجات و پيروزى بزرگى است: (31
> > وبرای آنهاست باغهايى سرسبز، و انواع انگورها، (32
> > و حوريانى با سینه های نرم و بزرگو همسن و سال، (33
> >
> > در سوره 28 توبه می گوید ای مومنان مشرکان نجسندونباید از این پس به مسجد الحرام وارد شوند واگر شما از کاهش
> > آیه282 بقره:".....فان لم یکونا رجلین فرجل وامراتان"
> > شاهد باید دو مرد یا یک مرد ودو زن باشد در واقع در اسلام ارزش شهادت یک مرد مساوی با دو زن قرار داده شده است
> > مردان از زنان بهترند (برترند)
> > آیه: "وللرجال علیهن درجه (228 بقره
> >
> > اگر زنان نافرمانی کردند آنها را بزنید34/
>
Pacifist
Sep 23, 2009, 5:59:49 AM9/23/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Good Morning!
Sad dar is certainly not a forgery as you suggest. It is referenced
in learned articles like these ones by the London University's School
of Oriental and African Studies:
Quote
Zoroastrianism recognizes various classes of spiritual beings besides
the Supreme Being (Ahura Mazda): The Amesha Spentas, Yazatas, and
Fravashis. In practice (cf. Sad Dar, chapter 26), Zoroastrians pick a
patron angel for their protection, and throughout their lives are
careful to observe prayers dedicated to that angel.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/angel.htm
Unquote
AND this one
Quote
The Mâdayân î hazâr dâdestân and the 9th-century Pahlavi legal texts
have generally passed over the case of woman's barrenness. The Persian
Sad dar-e nathr (chap. 92), however, in agreement with the Parthian
tradition, mentions it in conjunction with adultery, sorcery, and
concealing of menstruation as justifications for divorce.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Law/divorce_partho_sasanid.htm
Unquote
or this one
Quote
As for clothing and the dress-code, observance of religious rules
required that a person should not go around without wearing the kustîg
(the sacred girdle), or without shoes, or with just a single shoe
(e.g., Ardâ Wîrâz-nâmag, 17.9, 12, 25.3; Pahlavi Rivayat, ed. Dhabhar,
11.1-2; Junker, ed., p. 31, tr. p. 42; Sad dar-e nathr, 82; Sad dar-e
Bondaheš, 60, 85, 89).
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Culture/etiquette_sasanian.htm
Unquote
Sad Dar is not a 19th century text either. Its earliest text in hand
goes back to 15th century and even then it is a compilation of earlier
Zoroastrian customs., Repeat "CUSTOMS", i.e. what people actually did.
Conclusion: Texts like Sad Dar and priests like Kartir (my other post)
show how Zoroastrianism was really practised rather than your 21st
century North American-based version of "Zartoshti gari-e Naab-e
Zartosht" that was hardly ever practised, anywhere. One needs to look
at realities, no?
Have a nice day.
P
Sad dar is certainly not a forgery as you suggest. It is referenced
in learned articles like these ones by the London University's School
of Oriental and African Studies:
Quote
Zoroastrianism recognizes various classes of spiritual beings besides
the Supreme Being (Ahura Mazda): The Amesha Spentas, Yazatas, and
Fravashis. In practice (cf. Sad Dar, chapter 26), Zoroastrians pick a
patron angel for their protection, and throughout their lives are
careful to observe prayers dedicated to that angel.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/angel.htm
Unquote
AND this one
Quote
The Mâdayân î hazâr dâdestân and the 9th-century Pahlavi legal texts
have generally passed over the case of woman's barrenness. The Persian
Sad dar-e nathr (chap. 92), however, in agreement with the Parthian
tradition, mentions it in conjunction with adultery, sorcery, and
concealing of menstruation as justifications for divorce.
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Law/divorce_partho_sasanid.htm
Unquote
or this one
Quote
As for clothing and the dress-code, observance of religious rules
required that a person should not go around without wearing the kustîg
(the sacred girdle), or without shoes, or with just a single shoe
(e.g., Ardâ Wîrâz-nâmag, 17.9, 12, 25.3; Pahlavi Rivayat, ed. Dhabhar,
11.1-2; Junker, ed., p. 31, tr. p. 42; Sad dar-e nathr, 82; Sad dar-e
Bondaheš, 60, 85, 89).
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Culture/etiquette_sasanian.htm
Unquote
Sad Dar is not a 19th century text either. Its earliest text in hand
goes back to 15th century and even then it is a compilation of earlier
Zoroastrian customs., Repeat "CUSTOMS", i.e. what people actually did.
Conclusion: Texts like Sad Dar and priests like Kartir (my other post)
show how Zoroastrianism was really practised rather than your 21st
century North American-based version of "Zartoshti gari-e Naab-e
Zartosht" that was hardly ever practised, anywhere. One needs to look
at realities, no?
Have a nice day.
P
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 9:40:19 AM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Pacifist: It seems that we are having a miscommunication issue here! Either I am not specific enough in my writing or you do not pay attention or you do not want to pay attention and likely a little bit of all! Okay in my e-mail I have referenced to Sad Dar many times where ever I mentioned "this book" or " The book you mention" or the "subject book" and so on! I am sorry if it is not clear enough but I thought this was the book under questions unless there are more books that I am not aware of!
T
T
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:35:46 AM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Good night but there was not a sngle reference to "Sad Dar" in your
post!
P
On Sep 23, 3:22 pm, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Pacifist, Was not I clear enough. do you want me to speak Arabic so that you understand?! It seems that you did not bother reading my E-Mails again! I recommend to you please read carefully! and read it all! the timing that you replied basically suggested that you replied without reading! I have already addressed all your points and questions as part of my E-Mail and I have no intention to reiterate myself!
>
> Thanks and good night it is pretty late here, Tara
>
> ----- Original Massage ----
> From: Pacifist <mushroom...@hotmail.com>
> To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:10:46 AM
> Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
>
> Salam,
>
> Just to be concise and precise: "Are you saying that Sad Dar does not
> exist as a holy text that is practised by the Zoroastrians?"
>
> We all know that most religions have a central text but other
> important texts that people use to regulate their practises (e.g.
> Judaism has the O.T. but also Talmud) and Islam has the Kuran but all
> the hadith.. Hence, we cannot just pretend that the other things do
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:35:46 AM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Good night but there was not a sngle reference to "Sad Dar" in your
post!
P
On Sep 23, 3:22 pm, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Pacifist, Was not I clear enough. do you want me to speak Arabic so that you understand?! It seems that you did not bother reading my E-Mails again! I recommend to you please read carefully! and read it all! the timing that you replied basically suggested that you replied without reading! I have already addressed all your points and questions as part of my E-Mail and I have no intention to reiterate myself!
>
> Thanks and good night it is pretty late here, Tara
>
> ----- Original Massage ----
> From: Pacifist <mushroom...@hotmail.com>
> To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:10:46 AM
> Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
>
> Salam,
>
> Just to be concise and precise: "Are you saying that Sad Dar does not
> exist as a holy text that is practised by the Zoroastrians?"
>
> We all know that most religions have a central text but other
> important texts that people use to regulate their practises (e.g.
> Judaism has the O.T. but also Talmud) and Islam has the Kuran but all
> not exist.
>
> Best,
>
> P
>
> On Sep 23, 2:47 pm, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Mr Pacifist,
> >
> > Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
> > Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
>
> > "Ey Mazda
> > Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
> > Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
>
> > This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
>
> > Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
> > however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
> >
> > Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
> > even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
> > As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
> >
> > So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.htmlhttp://en.wikip...
> >
> > They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
> > Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> > "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op.. Cit. p. 29.
>
> Best,
>
> P
>
> On Sep 23, 2:47 pm, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Mr Pacifist,
> >
> > Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
> > Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
>
> > "Ey Mazda
> > Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
> > Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
>
> > This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
>
> > Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
> > however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
> >
> > Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
> > even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
> > As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
> >
> > So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.htmlhttp://en.wikip...
> >
> > They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
> > Here are some quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 9:49:15 AM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Ba doroud,
It is good at least you finally noticed a SINGLE reference to that book (Sad Dar) in my writings! However I did not say that it is written in 1885! I said it is translated by the novice westerners in 1885 but it originates from the Arian beliefs before Ashu Zartosht (documented in a section of Avesta as Vandidad) and I also provided Zartosht's own writing as per Gathas which apparently contradicts these believes and proves that one of his missions was in fact to direct people away from these kind of beliefs/practises. I hate to reiterate myself but you leave me no other choice:
I wrote:
>Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
>
> > "Ey Mazda
> > Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
> > Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
>
> > This simply proves that Zoroaster was against these rules and was fighting ayeene DIV_PARASTI.
__________________________________________________________________
The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
It is good at least you finally noticed a SINGLE reference to that book (Sad Dar) in my writings! However I did not say that it is written in 1885! I said it is translated by the novice westerners in 1885 but it originates from the Arian beliefs before Ashu Zartosht (documented in a section of Avesta as Vandidad) and I also provided Zartosht's own writing as per Gathas which apparently contradicts these believes and proves that one of his missions was in fact to direct people away from these kind of beliefs/practises. I hate to reiterate myself but you leave me no other choice:
I wrote:
>Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
>
> > "Ey Mazda
> > Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
> > Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
>
The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 10:12:00 AM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Pacifist,
I have no time today specially to keep reiterating things again and again! I have provided you reliable references on Zoroastrianism based on the research done by very reputable professors of high standing universities (Satandford/Harward/U C Berkley), people who spent a lifetime researching on Zoroastrianism. I hope that you are not claiming that your over a night gained knowledge supersedes all these researches! Please do more research before you point something! It seems that you keep playing with words (safsate) rather than thinking things over throughly and honestly and cast deaf ears to what you do not want to hear or see and instead superficially keep looking fro some holes to use against Zoroastrianism. I hoped at least you could provide a better alternative anyways!
As far as other figures in Zorostrian religion I do not have time to provide you with in-depth details but just to give you a heads up of course Zoroastrian religion considers other figures besides the monotheic God "Mazda" and they are the angles or Izads, so waht! It seems that you did not read my post on "تقويم جنسي هم به بازار آمد" which has a brief discussion on Persian calendar and talks about these Izads and Emshasepandans. but believing in angles does not negate believing in the unique God! First the Arabs accused us of being "Atash parast" and now what? I do not even see any point for you to pull here, as all other religions are inspired from Zoroastrianism, angles are also common in all other religions, so what's the point?!
I am really tide for the entire day and can not write anymore. Meanwhile this will give you some time to do a more in depth reading / research hopefully not as biased as usual!
> ....
I have no time today specially to keep reiterating things again and again! I have provided you reliable references on Zoroastrianism based on the research done by very reputable professors of high standing universities (Satandford/Harward/U C Berkley), people who spent a lifetime researching on Zoroastrianism. I hope that you are not claiming that your over a night gained knowledge supersedes all these researches! Please do more research before you point something! It seems that you keep playing with words (safsate) rather than thinking things over throughly and honestly and cast deaf ears to what you do not want to hear or see and instead superficially keep looking fro some holes to use against Zoroastrianism. I hoped at least you could provide a better alternative anyways!
As far as other figures in Zorostrian religion I do not have time to provide you with in-depth details but just to give you a heads up of course Zoroastrian religion considers other figures besides the monotheic God "Mazda" and they are the angles or Izads, so waht! It seems that you did not read my post on "تقويم جنسي هم به بازار آمد" which has a brief discussion on Persian calendar and talks about these Izads and Emshasepandans. but believing in angles does not negate believing in the unique God! First the Arabs accused us of being "Atash parast" and now what? I do not even see any point for you to pull here, as all other religions are inspired from Zoroastrianism, angles are also common in all other religions, so what's the point?!
I am really tide for the entire day and can not write anymore. Meanwhile this will give you some time to do a more in depth reading / research hopefully not as biased as usual!
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Pacifist
Sep 23, 2009, 11:48:38 AM9/23/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Baa salaam,
Is this the kind of "in-depth research" you did?! Sorry I could not
resist this.....I will feel guilty later!!
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/discussionpost/A_question_on_%22Sad_Dar%22_41559
(Well, it shows in your rather hurried and unreasoned replies.)
So.....Zartoshtism didn't live up to your expectations either, no?
Never mind eh...soon another religion will come along...what is it
next? Buddhism?!
Almost anything to deny one's own heritage because one in now too
civilised (North American for heaven's sake!) to be mistaken for those
unwashed Iranians who call themselves Muslims :-)...Of course, all the
while, one should beat one's chest as the true nationalist whilst
accusing others of being "Tazi parast" :-))
All the best (sorry, as a Tazi Parast, I meant ma'a salama!)
P
Is this the kind of "in-depth research" you did?! Sorry I could not
resist this.....I will feel guilty later!!
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/discussionpost/A_question_on_%22Sad_Dar%22_41559
(Well, it shows in your rather hurried and unreasoned replies.)
So.....Zartoshtism didn't live up to your expectations either, no?
Never mind eh...soon another religion will come along...what is it
next? Buddhism?!
Almost anything to deny one's own heritage because one in now too
civilised (North American for heaven's sake!) to be mistaken for those
unwashed Iranians who call themselves Muslims :-)...Of course, all the
while, one should beat one's chest as the true nationalist whilst
accusing others of being "Tazi parast" :-))
All the best (sorry, as a Tazi Parast, I meant ma'a salama!)
P
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 12:34:31 PM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Chon ghafieh tang ayad shaer be jafang ayad!
So you followed the same useless path and "in depth" research yourself and found nothing (hole/dirt? was what you were looking for?), ha! As you see no one replyed to my post FYI! So what I wrote was based on some reliable referenced and my own reseach in addition to my past knowlede. Meanwhile I wanted to see what other think about this in Zoroastrian community and what is their level of knowledge, that's why I have sent that post! but unfortunately I found them useless. Many Zoroastrians in Iran do not have a great knowledge also. Thanks to Arabs who totally removed almost all traces of Zoroastrianism and Zoroastrians and their prists / thinkers. What was left was scarse remote villageres whom they had no access to kill / rape and apparently were low educated and common folks! But thanks to God with all their efforts to destroy all traces of our culture yet there are enough to investigate and learn and that's what the top western scientists
and researcher have used for their research and documentation. More reiteration here for you again:
>>quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> > "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
You seem really desprate to dig some dirth and find holes here while I see a cheese full of holes on your side! You absolutely have no luck so take it easy / just relax!
> concealing of menstruation as justifications for divorce..
> > > > Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA".. This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
So you followed the same useless path and "in depth" research yourself and found nothing (hole/dirt? was what you were looking for?), ha! As you see no one replyed to my post FYI! So what I wrote was based on some reliable referenced and my own reseach in addition to my past knowlede. Meanwhile I wanted to see what other think about this in Zoroastrian community and what is their level of knowledge, that's why I have sent that post! but unfortunately I found them useless. Many Zoroastrians in Iran do not have a great knowledge also. Thanks to Arabs who totally removed almost all traces of Zoroastrianism and Zoroastrians and their prists / thinkers. What was left was scarse remote villageres whom they had no access to kill / rape and apparently were low educated and common folks! But thanks to God with all their efforts to destroy all traces of our culture yet there are enough to investigate and learn and that's what the top western scientists
and researcher have used for their research and documentation. More reiteration here for you again:
>>quotes from Mary_Boyce:
> >
> > "Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
> > "Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
> > > > Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
>
> > > > "Ey Mazda
> > > > Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
> > > > Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
>
> > > > This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
>
> > > > Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful
> of books/articles,
> > > > however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
> > > >
> > > > Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that
> could
> > > > even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
>
> ...
>
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>
> > > > "Ey Mazda
> > > > Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
> > > > Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
>
> > > > This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
>
> > > > Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful
> of books/articles,
> > > > however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
> > > >
> > > > Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that
> could
> > > > even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
>
> ...
>
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tara farhid-gallo
Sep 23, 2009, 1:08:59 PM9/23/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
plus:
At least I am not so narrow minded to believe in any craps thrown to me and try to investigate things which does not make any sense. but what about you? do you investigate on your own thought or just cast blind eyes on ridiculous and unacceptable things!
honestly never before I heard about this document (sar dar) as it is not practised by zoroastians community that I know of! So although I had my answers but wanted to try other people's thoughts / knowledge who acctually may use it!
notwithstanding it seems that you are way too desperate and feel that your Ideology is threatened and try so hard to change thing or mask things! but as Shamloo says:
تنهاصداست که میماند،
in the other word:
تنها حقیقت است که میماند،
Only the truth matters, nothing else really matters! That's the God: حقیقت, period!It seems that you have lot of time and you are putting me at work too. So I suggest that we end this discussions. We both said what we had to say and other people can decide! from thins point it would be waste of our times and other. Unless you have anything meaningful to say instead on dishing pointless dirts / and sitting angry words!
In the end I just wanted to write a nice poem by Shamloo to change the subjest / while this poem has incredible Zoroastrian tendencies as most of our poets do!
باغ آینه
چراغي به دستم، چراغي در برابرم:
من به جنگ سياهي مي روم.
گهواره هاي خستگي
از كشاكش رفت و آمدها
باز ايستاده اند،
و خورشيدي از اعماق
كهكشان هاي خاكستر شده را
روشن مي كند.
فريادهاي عاصي آذرخش -
هنگامي كه تگرگ
در بطن بي قرار ابر
نطفه مي بندد.
و درد خاموش وار تاك -
هنگامي كه غوره خرد
در انتهاي شاخسار طولاني پيچ پيچ جوانه مي زند.
فرياد من همه گريز از درد بود
چرا كه من، در وحشت انگيز ترين شبها، آفتاب را به دعائي
نوميدوار طلب مي كرده ام.
تو از خورشيد ها آمده اي، از سپيده دم ها آمده اي
تو از آينه ها و ابريشم ها آمده اي.
در خلئي كه نه خدا بود و نه آتش
نگاه و اعتماد ترا به دعائي نوميدوار طلب كرده بودم.
جرياني جدي
در فاصله دو مرگ
در تهي ميان دو تنهائي -
[ نگاه و اعتماد تو، بدينگونه است!]
شادي تو بي رحم است و بزرگوار،
نفست در دست هاي خالي من ترانه و سبزي است
من برمي خيزم!
چراغي در دست
چراغي در دلم.
زنگار روحم را صيقل مي زنم
آينه ئي برابر آينه ات مي گذارم
تا از تو
ابديتي بسازم.
______
گر بدين سان زيست بايد پست
من چه بي شرمم اگر فانوس عمرم را به رسوائي نياويزم
بر بلند كاج خشك كوچه بن بست
گر بدين سان زيست بايد پاك
من چه ناپاكم اگر ننشانم از ايمان خود، چون كوه
يادگاري جاودانه بر تراز بي بقاي خاك
Best, T
> http://www..cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/angel.htm
At least I am not so narrow minded to believe in any craps thrown to me and try to investigate things which does not make any sense. but what about you? do you investigate on your own thought or just cast blind eyes on ridiculous and unacceptable things!
honestly never before I heard about this document (sar dar) as it is not practised by zoroastians community that I know of! So although I had my answers but wanted to try other people's thoughts / knowledge who acctually may use it!
notwithstanding it seems that you are way too desperate and feel that your Ideology is threatened and try so hard to change thing or mask things! but as Shamloo says:
تنهاصداست که میماند،
in the other word:
تنها حقیقت است که میماند،
Only the truth matters, nothing else really matters! That's the God: حقیقت, period!It seems that you have lot of time and you are putting me at work too. So I suggest that we end this discussions. We both said what we had to say and other people can decide! from thins point it would be waste of our times and other. Unless you have anything meaningful to say instead on dishing pointless dirts / and sitting angry words!
In the end I just wanted to write a nice poem by Shamloo to change the subjest / while this poem has incredible Zoroastrian tendencies as most of our poets do!
باغ آینه
چراغي به دستم، چراغي در برابرم:
من به جنگ سياهي مي روم.
گهواره هاي خستگي
از كشاكش رفت و آمدها
باز ايستاده اند،
و خورشيدي از اعماق
كهكشان هاي خاكستر شده را
روشن مي كند.
فريادهاي عاصي آذرخش -
هنگامي كه تگرگ
در بطن بي قرار ابر
نطفه مي بندد.
و درد خاموش وار تاك -
هنگامي كه غوره خرد
در انتهاي شاخسار طولاني پيچ پيچ جوانه مي زند.
فرياد من همه گريز از درد بود
چرا كه من، در وحشت انگيز ترين شبها، آفتاب را به دعائي
نوميدوار طلب مي كرده ام.
تو از خورشيد ها آمده اي، از سپيده دم ها آمده اي
تو از آينه ها و ابريشم ها آمده اي.
در خلئي كه نه خدا بود و نه آتش
نگاه و اعتماد ترا به دعائي نوميدوار طلب كرده بودم.
جرياني جدي
در فاصله دو مرگ
در تهي ميان دو تنهائي -
[ نگاه و اعتماد تو، بدينگونه است!]
شادي تو بي رحم است و بزرگوار،
نفست در دست هاي خالي من ترانه و سبزي است
من برمي خيزم!
چراغي در دست
چراغي در دلم.
زنگار روحم را صيقل مي زنم
آينه ئي برابر آينه ات مي گذارم
تا از تو
ابديتي بسازم.
______
گر بدين سان زيست بايد پست
من چه بي شرمم اگر فانوس عمرم را به رسوائي نياويزم
بر بلند كاج خشك كوچه بن بست
گر بدين سان زيست بايد پاك
من چه ناپاكم اگر ننشانم از ايمان خود، چون كوه
يادگاري جاودانه بر تراز بي بقاي خاك
Best, T
Pacifist
Sep 23, 2009, 9:26:27 PM9/23/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Hi,
To sum up, the status of Sad Dar is a bit like the "resaaleh" and
"towzih-ul-masaael" that the average follower of Islam follows. It is
how the religion is actually and factually practised. Other
interpretations made, typically by overseas Iranians, are nothing to
do with the religion as Zoroastrians practise today. It is in the
nature of inventing a new religion which even if it takes off, will
crash to earth like all other religions.
All the best /Om Shanti (in anticipation of you taking up Hinduism
soon!),
P
> http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/discussionpost/A_question_on_%22Sad_...
> >http://www..cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/angel...
To sum up, the status of Sad Dar is a bit like the "resaaleh" and
"towzih-ul-masaael" that the average follower of Islam follows. It is
how the religion is actually and factually practised. Other
interpretations made, typically by overseas Iranians, are nothing to
do with the religion as Zoroastrians practise today. It is in the
nature of inventing a new religion which even if it takes off, will
crash to earth like all other religions.
All the best /Om Shanti (in anticipation of you taking up Hinduism
soon!),
P
>
> > Unquote
>
> > AND this one
>
> > Quote
>
> > The Mâdayân î hazâr dâdestân and the 9th-century Pahlavi legal texts
> > have generally passed over the case of woman's barrenness. The Persian
> > Sad dar-e nathr (chap. 92), however, in agreement with the Parthian
> > tradition, mentions it in conjunction with adultery, sorcery, and
> > concealing of menstruation as
>
> > Unquote
>
> > AND this one
>
> > Quote
>
> > The Mâdayân î hazâr dâdestân and the 9th-century Pahlavi legal texts
> > have generally passed over the case of woman's barrenness. The Persian
> > Sad dar-e nathr (chap. 92), however, in agreement with the Parthian
> > tradition, mentions it in conjunction with adultery, sorcery, and
> > concealing of menstruation as
>
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 24, 2009, 2:41:50 AM9/24/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Pacifist,
Again? I thought that this was over!
I wanted to end this discussion in this forum as I found it pointless and beyond the capacity of this forum and asked you to send notes privately on this topic from this point on, but you ignored and decided to put it out again for some reasons! Also you digged into my other private accounts and publicized one of my private posts! Do you have an agenda here or what?! OO7?!
In response to your closure notes I have to say thanks for sharing your thoughts but I'd rather to ask and follow the experts on this.. I privately sent you my communication with Prof. Shcwartz but now that you decided to go public so I post it as well.
I do not have any idea as to in what basis you draw lines here that western researchers cannot be held as good resources in Zoroastrianism and Iranian inside Iran are more reliable as they practise it! May be we should rely on you instead from this point?! How about the prophet himself?!! Is Ashu Zartosht’s own word reliable enough?! So you do not base your arguments on Gathas that are direct teachings of Ashu zartosht or the scientists who accurately study this faith. Instead you choose to base your analogy on one single book which is not practiced by any Zoroastrian that I personally know of and is based on pre-Zartosht “Vandidad” part of Avesta which Zartosht was totally against it!
Notwithstanding, whoever studies something more in-depth learns it more accurately and will be more reliable party, practising something blindly (good or bad) out of habit does not make you master of it! Let’s not forget we are almost an exterminated nation with an almost exterminated religion! So with no funds / proper schools / adequate support usually everything faces a slump! But do not worry there are very good and advanced believers in and outside Iran but none of them have any regards for this stupid guide book you pull! So I see your efforts worthless trying to equate the entire faith of Zoroastrianism with this one single book disregard the heart and essence of Ashu Zartosht’s teachings which in fact is against these kinds of beliefs!
Also during Sassanid era lots of text were added to Zoroastrian faith which are not in coherence with Ashu Zartosht’s philosophy/ teachings as well!
However now that you brought this up I am so sure there are hidden agendas going on by IRI and perhaps the Zionists to penetrate in Zoroastrian community and make confusions of this sort! They intentionally emphasise on the pre-Zoroaster scripts of Avesta namely “Vandidad” and try to sell it as Zoroastrian believes (exactly what you are trying so hard to pull). While evidently these ideas were disqualified and fought by Zoroaster. I have provided you with evidence from Gatha on one case but you simply ignored it. But in fact I do not mind your attacks as they are even making me gain a lot more confidence in Zoroastrian faith!
As I posted to you privately Mr. Shcwartz replied to my question on “Sad Dar” briefly despite being incredibly busy and confirmed my notion:
Quote:
> Dear Ms. Farhid-Gallo,
Thank you for your kind words. I agree that there is very much in the
Avesta and the Sasanian religious texts, and derivative Persian works,
that do not go back to Zarathushtra's Gathas.
And then:
>I hope soon to devote such time and energies as remain to me to
produce a book on the Gathas, religious poetry which continues to astound
me with their depth and intricacy. just now i am trying to cope with
teaching, academic, and responsibilities, so I can engage on this task.
Best wishes to you!
Martin Schwartz
unquote
So he is basically in consensus with me in the fact that not everything in Avesta and also Sassanid religious text books are necessarily based on the teachings of Zoroaster! He also says that he is so fascinated by Ashu Zartosht’s Gathas (Melat bi ghierati ke ma baashim, daaneshmandane gharbi bayyad dine va Ayeen khodemoon ro yademoon bedan/ aval mizarim araba bedozdanesh baad az gharbiha dobaareh yadesh migirim)! He has dedicate his life to this philosophy and is the most credible figure in the history and philosophy of Zoroastrianism! (Mery Boice also more or less the same)!
To change the focus a little bit I have attached two files to this E-Mails which I highly recoment reading, one is only a short quote from Avesta and the other reviews many versus of Quran and Arab history which sheds some lights on how Islam borrows tendencies and characteristics from the pre-Islamic Arab traditions.
Best, T
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:26:27 PM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
> http://www..absoluteastronomy.com/discussionpost/A_question_on_%22Sad_...
Again? I thought that this was over!
I wanted to end this discussion in this forum as I found it pointless and beyond the capacity of this forum and asked you to send notes privately on this topic from this point on, but you ignored and decided to put it out again for some reasons! Also you digged into my other private accounts and publicized one of my private posts! Do you have an agenda here or what?! OO7?!
In response to your closure notes I have to say thanks for sharing your thoughts but I'd rather to ask and follow the experts on this.. I privately sent you my communication with Prof. Shcwartz but now that you decided to go public so I post it as well.
I do not have any idea as to in what basis you draw lines here that western researchers cannot be held as good resources in Zoroastrianism and Iranian inside Iran are more reliable as they practise it! May be we should rely on you instead from this point?! How about the prophet himself?!! Is Ashu Zartosht’s own word reliable enough?! So you do not base your arguments on Gathas that are direct teachings of Ashu zartosht or the scientists who accurately study this faith. Instead you choose to base your analogy on one single book which is not practiced by any Zoroastrian that I personally know of and is based on pre-Zartosht “Vandidad” part of Avesta which Zartosht was totally against it!
Notwithstanding, whoever studies something more in-depth learns it more accurately and will be more reliable party, practising something blindly (good or bad) out of habit does not make you master of it! Let’s not forget we are almost an exterminated nation with an almost exterminated religion! So with no funds / proper schools / adequate support usually everything faces a slump! But do not worry there are very good and advanced believers in and outside Iran but none of them have any regards for this stupid guide book you pull! So I see your efforts worthless trying to equate the entire faith of Zoroastrianism with this one single book disregard the heart and essence of Ashu Zartosht’s teachings which in fact is against these kinds of beliefs!
Also during Sassanid era lots of text were added to Zoroastrian faith which are not in coherence with Ashu Zartosht’s philosophy/ teachings as well!
However now that you brought this up I am so sure there are hidden agendas going on by IRI and perhaps the Zionists to penetrate in Zoroastrian community and make confusions of this sort! They intentionally emphasise on the pre-Zoroaster scripts of Avesta namely “Vandidad” and try to sell it as Zoroastrian believes (exactly what you are trying so hard to pull). While evidently these ideas were disqualified and fought by Zoroaster. I have provided you with evidence from Gatha on one case but you simply ignored it. But in fact I do not mind your attacks as they are even making me gain a lot more confidence in Zoroastrian faith!
As I posted to you privately Mr. Shcwartz replied to my question on “Sad Dar” briefly despite being incredibly busy and confirmed my notion:
Quote:
> Dear Ms. Farhid-Gallo,
Thank you for your kind words. I agree that there is very much in the
Avesta and the Sasanian religious texts, and derivative Persian works,
that do not go back to Zarathushtra's Gathas.
And then:
>I hope soon to devote such time and energies as remain to me to
produce a book on the Gathas, religious poetry which continues to astound
me with their depth and intricacy. just now i am trying to cope with
teaching, academic, and responsibilities, so I can engage on this task.
Best wishes to you!
Martin Schwartz
unquote
So he is basically in consensus with me in the fact that not everything in Avesta and also Sassanid religious text books are necessarily based on the teachings of Zoroaster! He also says that he is so fascinated by Ashu Zartosht’s Gathas (Melat bi ghierati ke ma baashim, daaneshmandane gharbi bayyad dine va Ayeen khodemoon ro yademoon bedan/ aval mizarim araba bedozdanesh baad az gharbiha dobaareh yadesh migirim)! He has dedicate his life to this philosophy and is the most credible figure in the history and philosophy of Zoroastrianism! (Mery Boice also more or less the same)!
To change the focus a little bit I have attached two files to this E-Mails which I highly recoment reading, one is only a short quote from Avesta and the other reviews many versus of Quran and Arab history which sheds some lights on how Islam borrows tendencies and characteristics from the pre-Islamic Arab traditions.
Best, T
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:26:27 PM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Hi,
To sum up, the status of Sad Dar is a bit like the "resaaleh" and
"towzih-ul-masaael" that the average follower of Islam follows. It is
how the religion is actually and factually practised. Other
interpretations made, typically by overseas Iranians, are nothing to
do with the religion as Zoroastrians practise today. It is in the
nature of inventing a new religion which even if it takes off, will
crash to earth like all other religions.
All the best /Om Shanti (in anticipation of you taking up Hinduism
soon!),
P
On Sep 24, 1:08 am, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> plus:
>
> At least I am not so narrow minded to believe in any craps thrown to me and try to investigate things which does not make any sense. but what about you? do you investigate on your own thought or just cast blind eyes on ridiculous and unacceptable things!
>
> honestly never before I heard about this document (sar dar) as it is not practised by zoroastians community that I know of! So although I had my answers but wanted to try other people's thoughts / knowledge who acctually may use it!
>
> notwithstanding it seems that you are way too desperate and feel that your Ideology is threatened and try so hard to change thing or mask things! but as Shamloo says:
>
> تنهاصداست که میماند،
>
> in the other word:
>
> تنها حقیقت است که میماند،
>
> Only the truth matters, nothing else really matters! That's the God: حقیقت, period!It seems that you have lot of time and you are putting me at work too. So I suggest that we end this discussions. We both said what we had to say and other people can decide! from thins point it would be waste of our times and other. Unless you have anything meaningful to say instead on dishing pointless dirts / and sitting angry words!
>
> In the end I just wanted to write a nice poem by Shamloo to change the subjest / while this poem has incredible Zoroastrian tendencies as most of our poets do!
>
> باغ آینه
> چراغي به دستم، چراغي در برابرم:
> من به جنگ سياهي مي روم..
To sum up, the status of Sad Dar is a bit like the "resaaleh" and
"towzih-ul-masaael" that the average follower of Islam follows. It is
how the religion is actually and factually practised. Other
interpretations made, typically by overseas Iranians, are nothing to
do with the religion as Zoroastrians practise today. It is in the
nature of inventing a new religion which even if it takes off, will
crash to earth like all other religions.
All the best /Om Shanti (in anticipation of you taking up Hinduism
soon!),
P
On Sep 24, 1:08 am, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> plus:
>
> At least I am not so narrow minded to believe in any craps thrown to me and try to investigate things which does not make any sense. but what about you? do you investigate on your own thought or just cast blind eyes on ridiculous and unacceptable things!
>
> honestly never before I heard about this document (sar dar) as it is not practised by zoroastians community that I know of! So although I had my answers but wanted to try other people's thoughts / knowledge who acctually may use it!
>
> notwithstanding it seems that you are way too desperate and feel that your Ideology is threatened and try so hard to change thing or mask things! but as Shamloo says:
>
> تنهاصداست که میماند،
>
> in the other word:
>
> تنها حقیقت است که میماند،
>
> Only the truth matters, nothing else really matters! That's the God: حقیقت, period!It seems that you have lot of time and you are putting me at work too. So I suggest that we end this discussions. We both said what we had to say and other people can decide! from thins point it would be waste of our times and other. Unless you have anything meaningful to say instead on dishing pointless dirts / and sitting angry words!
>
> In the end I just wanted to write a nice poem by Shamloo to change the subjest / while this poem has incredible Zoroastrian tendencies as most of our poets do!
>
> باغ آینه
> چراغي به دستم، چراغي در برابرم:
Pacifist
Sep 24, 2009, 4:43:41 AM9/24/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Hi,
- You say: "Also you digged into my other private accounts and
the internet. You make it sound as if I hacked into your private
email or stole you password :-)
By the way, it is "dug" not digged....
- I have never taken any positions about the origins of Sad Dar. All
I say (with evidence provided) is that it embodies Zoroastrian
practises as they actually exist in the real world, practised by real
people. If you wish to practise something based on the Gathas, you
should be aware that you are only very remorely connected to
Zoroastrianism as was practised in Iran, at least since the time of
Sassanian to present day...I suspect that Zoroastrianism has never
really been practised in the forms you suggest since, as you know or
can easily find out, traces of Haoma have been found in the Persepolis
so even the Achaemenids were busy getting high in Takht-e Jamshid,
regardless owhat the Good religion prescribed. Moreover, there is
little evidence that Cyrus was a Zoroastrian (as opposed to being a
follower of Mazdaism of which Zoroastrianism is a subset.
- I have the greatest respect for all the reseach that is done by
foreign scholars but, again, their scholarship relates to a dead
religion not the Zoroastrianism that is alive today.
All the best,
P
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> TM_P1_001.pdf
> 58KViewDownload
>
> 1400_p217_001.pdf
> 1713KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
- You say: "Also you digged into my other private accounts and
publicized one of my private posts! Do you have an agenda here or
what?! OO7?! "
This is highly unfair as I referred to what is publicly available on
what?! OO7?! "
the internet. You make it sound as if I hacked into your private
email or stole you password :-)
By the way, it is "dug" not digged....
- I have never taken any positions about the origins of Sad Dar. All
I say (with evidence provided) is that it embodies Zoroastrian
practises as they actually exist in the real world, practised by real
people. If you wish to practise something based on the Gathas, you
should be aware that you are only very remorely connected to
Zoroastrianism as was practised in Iran, at least since the time of
Sassanian to present day...I suspect that Zoroastrianism has never
really been practised in the forms you suggest since, as you know or
can easily find out, traces of Haoma have been found in the Persepolis
so even the Achaemenids were busy getting high in Takht-e Jamshid,
regardless owhat the Good religion prescribed. Moreover, there is
little evidence that Cyrus was a Zoroastrian (as opposed to being a
follower of Mazdaism of which Zoroastrianism is a subset.
- I have the greatest respect for all the reseach that is done by
foreign scholars but, again, their scholarship relates to a dead
religion not the Zoroastrianism that is alive today.
All the best,
P
>
> read more »
>
> TM_P1_001.pdf
> 58KViewDownload
>
> 1400_p217_001.pdf
> 1713KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 24, 2009, 11:19:27 AM9/24/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Hi,
Thanks for catching the typo / I am sure it was not the only one, help yourself! In fact I write a lot as part of my day to day job and we need a proof reader, are you looking?!
Is there anything else? a lot of thing must be wrong with me as I am a Zoroastrian, ha?
You sound like as if you are a scholar in Zoroastrian faith or everything else for that matter! I was connected with Zoroastrian families back home and here in Canada as well. My family never been too much into religious dogmas but I have always been exposed to the essence of the Zoroastrian faith in the environment I grew up! I have not seen any Zoroastrians around me following those rubbish! From time to time I have come across some Zoroastrians from little villages / towns who were quite superstitious/common and low educated who said / believed in very awkward things though! While the reason for their backwardness was not being Zoroastrian but being low education and what they knew from Zoroastrian faith was very limited and passed on though their ancestors in small isolated communities.
Notwithstanding what people or followers of a faith do or believe does not discredit the faith altogether. Also all other tribes back-stabbed and disobeyed their prophets based on the stories of Bible /Quran /etc. as long as I recall and that in your opinion did not discredit your faith! Ha?! Shia today is a mere parallel to what was initially meant to be! Also this applies to other religions including Christianity and etc.! There are zillions religious sects that contradict each other and obviously not all of them can be genuine and hence of-track for the most part!
Even if what you say was right and most Zoroastrians today were misled (which for fact I know it is not the case) so as the rest of the world, this would not remove my deep respect for this faith and our great ancestor's philosophy which such great scholars of such caliper admire today and devote a life time to research it and speak so highly about it! When foreigners research and get astound why we shouldn't! In fact for me Zoroastrianism is more a philosophy than just a faith!
It seems that you are so adamant to either pin something in Zoroastrian faith or proclaim it a dead religion which no longer exists! Wishful thinking, unlike you, some people have only fallen from the “asb” not their “Asl” and kept the faith in their hearts and passed on to the new generations. You seem to be following the footsteps of the Arabs who initially destroyed our culture and tried to make sure no traces of our faith is left! But wishful thinking, no one can keep the sun from shining again! Iran=land of the sun and light!
Tara
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:43:41 AM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Hi,
> > So you followed the same useless path and "in depth" research yourself and found nothing (hole/dirt? was what you were looking for?), ha! As you see no one replyed to my post FYI! So what I wrote was based on some reliable referenced and my own reseach in addition to my past knowlede. Meanwhile I wanted to see what other think about this in Zoroastrian community and what is their level of knowledge, that's why I have sent that post! but unfortunately I found them useless.. Many Zoroastrians in Iran do not have a great knowledge also. Thanks to Arabs who totally removed almost all traces of Zoroastrianism and Zoroastrians
Thanks for catching the typo / I am sure it was not the only one, help yourself! In fact I write a lot as part of my day to day job and we need a proof reader, are you looking?!
Is there anything else? a lot of thing must be wrong with me as I am a Zoroastrian, ha?
You sound like as if you are a scholar in Zoroastrian faith or everything else for that matter! I was connected with Zoroastrian families back home and here in Canada as well. My family never been too much into religious dogmas but I have always been exposed to the essence of the Zoroastrian faith in the environment I grew up! I have not seen any Zoroastrians around me following those rubbish! From time to time I have come across some Zoroastrians from little villages / towns who were quite superstitious/common and low educated who said / believed in very awkward things though! While the reason for their backwardness was not being Zoroastrian but being low education and what they knew from Zoroastrian faith was very limited and passed on though their ancestors in small isolated communities.
Notwithstanding what people or followers of a faith do or believe does not discredit the faith altogether. Also all other tribes back-stabbed and disobeyed their prophets based on the stories of Bible /Quran /etc. as long as I recall and that in your opinion did not discredit your faith! Ha?! Shia today is a mere parallel to what was initially meant to be! Also this applies to other religions including Christianity and etc.! There are zillions religious sects that contradict each other and obviously not all of them can be genuine and hence of-track for the most part!
Even if what you say was right and most Zoroastrians today were misled (which for fact I know it is not the case) so as the rest of the world, this would not remove my deep respect for this faith and our great ancestor's philosophy which such great scholars of such caliper admire today and devote a life time to research it and speak so highly about it! When foreigners research and get astound why we shouldn't! In fact for me Zoroastrianism is more a philosophy than just a faith!
It seems that you are so adamant to either pin something in Zoroastrian faith or proclaim it a dead religion which no longer exists! Wishful thinking, unlike you, some people have only fallen from the “asb” not their “Asl” and kept the faith in their hearts and passed on to the new generations. You seem to be following the footsteps of the Arabs who initially destroyed our culture and tried to make sure no traces of our faith is left! But wishful thinking, no one can keep the sun from shining again! Iran=land of the sun and light!
Tara
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:43:41 AM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Hi,
- You say: "Also you digged into my other private accounts and
publicized one of my private posts! Do you have an agenda here or
what?! OO7?! "
This is highly unfair as I referred to what is publicly available on
the internet. You make it sound as if I hacked into your private
email or stole you password :-)
By the way, it is "dug" not digged....
- I have never taken any positions about the origins of Sad Dar. All
I say (with evidence provided) is that it embodies Zoroastrian
practises as they actually exist in the real world, practised by real
people. If you wish to practise something based on the Gathas, you
should be aware that you are only very remorely connected to
Zoroastrianism as was practised in Iran, at least since the time of
Sassanian to present day...I suspect that Zoroastrianism has never
really been practised in the forms you suggest since, as you know or
can easily find out, traces of Haoma have been found in the Persepolis
so even the Achaemenids were busy getting high in Takht-e Jamshid,
regardless owhat the Good religion prescribed.. Moreover, there is
publicized one of my private posts! Do you have an agenda here or
what?! OO7?! "
This is highly unfair as I referred to what is publicly available on
the internet. You make it sound as if I hacked into your private
email or stole you password :-)
By the way, it is "dug" not digged....
- I have never taken any positions about the origins of Sad Dar. All
I say (with evidence provided) is that it embodies Zoroastrian
practises as they actually exist in the real world, practised by real
people. If you wish to practise something based on the Gathas, you
should be aware that you are only very remorely connected to
Zoroastrianism as was practised in Iran, at least since the time of
Sassanian to present day...I suspect that Zoroastrianism has never
really been practised in the forms you suggest since, as you know or
can easily find out, traces of Haoma have been found in the Persepolis
so even the Achaemenids were busy getting high in Takht-e Jamshid,
little evidence that Cyrus was a Zoroastrian (as opposed to being a
follower of Mazdaism of which Zoroastrianism is a subset.
- I have the greatest respect for all the reseach that is done by
foreign scholars but, again, their scholarship relates to a dead
religion not the Zoroastrianism that is alive today.
All the best,
P
follower of Mazdaism of which Zoroastrianism is a subset.
- I have the greatest respect for all the reseach that is done by
foreign scholars but, again, their scholarship relates to a dead
religion not the Zoroastrianism that is alive today.
All the best,
P
>
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> TM_P1_001.pdf
> 58KViewDownload
>
> 1400_p217_001.pdf
> 1713KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> TM_P1_001.pdf
> 58KViewDownload
>
> 1400_p217_001.pdf
> 1713KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 24, 2009, 11:53:23 AM9/24/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
And dear pacifist you did not provide ANY evidence on your claims only one website! I provided you reliable sources / websites / none had any refernce to Sad Dar! T
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:43:41 AM
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 24, 2009, 4:30:25 PM9/24/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Ba doroud,
A nice article by A Zoroastrian Educational Institute which sheds some more lights on the recent subject:
Does Sad Dar Reflect Zarathushtrian Thought?
http://www.vohuman.org/Article/Does%20Sad%20Dar%20Reflect%20Zarathushtrian%20Thought.htm
__________________________________________________________________
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A nice article by A Zoroastrian Educational Institute which sheds some more lights on the recent subject:
Does Sad Dar Reflect Zarathushtrian Thought?
http://www.vohuman.org/Article/Does%20Sad%20Dar%20Reflect%20Zarathushtrian%20Thought.htm
Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
Pacifist
Sep 24, 2009, 9:27:31 PM9/24/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Baa Salaam,
From the link you kindly provided below:
Quote
One of the versions we now have was composed around 1531 AD. Another
version by a different author, around 1495 AD. Both versions were
composed by Zoroastrian priests of that time. One can only speculate
about their intentions in composing this work.
Unquote
Therefore this is a real Zorioastrian document and not the fake you
previously claimed. In my previous posts on this thread, I provided
many links from SOAS (London University) to show that the academia
consider Sad Dar a genuine Zoeroastrian text.
You cannot, therefore, claim to be a Zoroastrian and reject Sad Dar.
Maybe you should call yourself a Gatha-ist?
Best,
P
On Sep 25, 4:30 am, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Ba doroud,
>
> A nice article by A Zoroastrian Educational Institute which sheds some more lights on the recent subject:
>
> Does Sad Dar Reflect Zarathushtrian Thought?
>
> http://www.vohuman.org/Article/Does%20Sad%20Dar%20Reflect%20Zarathush...
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
From the link you kindly provided below:
Quote
One of the versions we now have was composed around 1531 AD. Another
version by a different author, around 1495 AD. Both versions were
composed by Zoroastrian priests of that time. One can only speculate
about their intentions in composing this work.
Unquote
Therefore this is a real Zorioastrian document and not the fake you
previously claimed. In my previous posts on this thread, I provided
many links from SOAS (London University) to show that the academia
consider Sad Dar a genuine Zoeroastrian text.
You cannot, therefore, claim to be a Zoroastrian and reject Sad Dar.
Maybe you should call yourself a Gatha-ist?
Best,
P
On Sep 25, 4:30 am, tara farhid-gallo <tfarhidga...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Ba doroud,
>
> A nice article by A Zoroastrian Educational Institute which sheds some more lights on the recent subject:
>
> Does Sad Dar Reflect Zarathushtrian Thought?
>
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 25, 2009, 12:05:18 AM9/25/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Hi!
Safsateh again! It seems that you say things just for the sake of saying something and just continue your false claims! I never said Sad Dar was fake / I would say that if it was claimed to be coming from Ashu Zartosht but as long as someone wrote it how can it be fake? similar to Prof. Schartrz, Prof. Boyce and the Author of that article (McIntyre, Dina G.) who is a great researcher and scholar in the subject, in addition to many other scholars, I said that it is contradictory to Ashu Zartosht's teachings and is based on the part of Avesta which related to pre Zoroaster's era and a particular tribe of Arian culture! Yes of course I am a Zoroastrian and I do not practise those rubbish so as my friends! Who can tell me that I can't?! You?! You are making rules for Zoroastrian faith now as to what they have to do and not to do?! Are you hallucinating! May be you claim being Zoroastrian priest no! Even so I still can be a Zoroastrian and not
follow you and I sure won't! Do you follow Khamenei as he is the supreme leader of the Shia Muslims? Or may be you follow Khomeili (see attached)! After all his Resale is based on straight fundamentals of Islam and Ahadis Emaman/Anbia (Ahkaame sarih din)! Right! So.......
While Sar dar contradicts Zoroaster's teachings and Most Zoroasterians I know do not follow it, for fact I do not know a single Zoroastrian who follows it! If a Zoroastrian priests wrote it perhaps in Sassanid era does not mean it is the book of good and one should follow it otherwise she /he turns to stone. Unlike Semitic religions Zoroasters God does not punish or threaten people / that's is the Ahriman's job in our faith!
You do not have a case I am not so sure why you even bother!! Khodemoonima bad joori engaar in dine Zartosht negaraanetoon mikone kheili bad joori gir dadin / mikhain hesabi az safheye roozegaar hazfesh konin dobaare, ha?! wishfull thinking!
Safsateh again! It seems that you say things just for the sake of saying something and just continue your false claims! I never said Sad Dar was fake / I would say that if it was claimed to be coming from Ashu Zartosht but as long as someone wrote it how can it be fake? similar to Prof. Schartrz, Prof. Boyce and the Author of that article (McIntyre, Dina G.) who is a great researcher and scholar in the subject, in addition to many other scholars, I said that it is contradictory to Ashu Zartosht's teachings and is based on the part of Avesta which related to pre Zoroaster's era and a particular tribe of Arian culture! Yes of course I am a Zoroastrian and I do not practise those rubbish so as my friends! Who can tell me that I can't?! You?! You are making rules for Zoroastrian faith now as to what they have to do and not to do?! Are you hallucinating! May be you claim being Zoroastrian priest no! Even so I still can be a Zoroastrian and not
follow you and I sure won't! Do you follow Khamenei as he is the supreme leader of the Shia Muslims? Or may be you follow Khomeili (see attached)! After all his Resale is based on straight fundamentals of Islam and Ahadis Emaman/Anbia (Ahkaame sarih din)! Right! So.......
While Sar dar contradicts Zoroaster's teachings and Most Zoroasterians I know do not follow it, for fact I do not know a single Zoroastrian who follows it! If a Zoroastrian priests wrote it perhaps in Sassanid era does not mean it is the book of good and one should follow it otherwise she /he turns to stone. Unlike Semitic religions Zoroasters God does not punish or threaten people / that's is the Ahriman's job in our faith!
You do not have a case I am not so sure why you even bother!! Khodemoonima bad joori engaar in dine Zartosht negaraanetoon mikone kheili bad joori gir dadin / mikhain hesabi az safheye roozegaar hazfesh konin dobaare, ha?! wishfull thinking!
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 25, 2009, 1:10:10 AM9/25/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Doroud,
Just to wrap up:
1. Sad Dar is just a Pahlavi book and opinion of some guy / or a prieist, it has nothing to do with Zoroasterian faith.
2. The Translation in 1885 is subject to limited understanding of Pahlavi and completely off the real meaning. Note that He translating Vahuman as a bird while it is really "Vahu= Good, Mana= Mind" This is obviously a mistranslation of Pahlavi scripts and its complexity because it has only 16 letters and depend on the sentence, the word can be interpreted many different ways.
3. Just because the book is in Pahlavi, does not make it automatically a Zoroastrian book even though some Zoroastrian priests may have written it.
4. For years "Avesta" has been considered as Zoroastrian scripture, but today, it is a well known fact that, Only "Gatahas" are indeed Zoroaster's own words. "Vandidad" has been proven as Pre-Zoroastrian. While, some others also were inherited from General Indo-Aryan custom.
5. Zoroastrian faith is not about Macro-managing a person’s life but only to provide the basic knowledge related to human being’s inner struggle. As such, you can never find "Touzih al-masayel" in Zoroastrian literature as in Islam. The reason is simply the fact of two fundamentally different philosophies and perspectives on the life and creation. In Abrahamian religion, we are here because of our Ancestor's sin and our only purpose is to pay for his sin and going through hardship. On the other hand, Zoroastrian faith interprets the life completely from another angle. HUMAN is the CENTER of world and the REPRESENTATIVE of AHURA MAZDA with Faravahar being the means of connection. HUMAN can be indeed GOD himself (Anal Hagh?!) by understanding his/her inner and real self (gar be khod aayee be khodayee resi) and there is no difference between gender or race but degree of KNOWLEDGE. This is the reason, Avesta starts with "Vada AEERAMI", I provide you the
KNOWLEDGE. Vahuman is not a physical or even spiritual being but the FIRST STEP of Approaching MAZDA and becoming Buddha or God if you wish. Human is not SAFIH neither needs any Faghih to tell him what is right or wrong (az kodoom dar varede tovalet beshe!), having said so, Sad Dar is just nothing but yet another piece of literature. It is well known to any person who has been curious enough to learn about his/her ancestor's heritage even in a very basic levels that even the greatest of MOBEDS like Maraspentan, just in best wrote his famous "Pand va ANdarz" not "Touzih al masayel".
6. Having said so, why struggling on a book that NO Zoroastrian ever believe and even over 99% never heard of? Just have a look at Koleini, Majlasi, or Khomeini's Touzih -al-masayel which is well accepted by all so called believer and see what kind of jokes are discussed there. AAsh inghad shour bood ke Khaan ham fahmid. Agha Zadeh himself wrote that even one of Majlesi books is enough to destroy a country and we have over 16 of them.
There are lots to say on this but may be some other time!
__________________________________________________________________
Reclaim your name @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com. Get your new email address now! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/
Just to wrap up:
1. Sad Dar is just a Pahlavi book and opinion of some guy / or a prieist, it has nothing to do with Zoroasterian faith.
2. The Translation in 1885 is subject to limited understanding of Pahlavi and completely off the real meaning. Note that He translating Vahuman as a bird while it is really "Vahu= Good, Mana= Mind" This is obviously a mistranslation of Pahlavi scripts and its complexity because it has only 16 letters and depend on the sentence, the word can be interpreted many different ways.
3. Just because the book is in Pahlavi, does not make it automatically a Zoroastrian book even though some Zoroastrian priests may have written it.
4. For years "Avesta" has been considered as Zoroastrian scripture, but today, it is a well known fact that, Only "Gatahas" are indeed Zoroaster's own words. "Vandidad" has been proven as Pre-Zoroastrian. While, some others also were inherited from General Indo-Aryan custom.
5. Zoroastrian faith is not about Macro-managing a person’s life but only to provide the basic knowledge related to human being’s inner struggle. As such, you can never find "Touzih al-masayel" in Zoroastrian literature as in Islam. The reason is simply the fact of two fundamentally different philosophies and perspectives on the life and creation. In Abrahamian religion, we are here because of our Ancestor's sin and our only purpose is to pay for his sin and going through hardship. On the other hand, Zoroastrian faith interprets the life completely from another angle. HUMAN is the CENTER of world and the REPRESENTATIVE of AHURA MAZDA with Faravahar being the means of connection. HUMAN can be indeed GOD himself (Anal Hagh?!) by understanding his/her inner and real self (gar be khod aayee be khodayee resi) and there is no difference between gender or race but degree of KNOWLEDGE. This is the reason, Avesta starts with "Vada AEERAMI", I provide you the
KNOWLEDGE. Vahuman is not a physical or even spiritual being but the FIRST STEP of Approaching MAZDA and becoming Buddha or God if you wish. Human is not SAFIH neither needs any Faghih to tell him what is right or wrong (az kodoom dar varede tovalet beshe!), having said so, Sad Dar is just nothing but yet another piece of literature. It is well known to any person who has been curious enough to learn about his/her ancestor's heritage even in a very basic levels that even the greatest of MOBEDS like Maraspentan, just in best wrote his famous "Pand va ANdarz" not "Touzih al masayel".
6. Having said so, why struggling on a book that NO Zoroastrian ever believe and even over 99% never heard of? Just have a look at Koleini, Majlasi, or Khomeini's Touzih -al-masayel which is well accepted by all so called believer and see what kind of jokes are discussed there. AAsh inghad shour bood ke Khaan ham fahmid. Agha Zadeh himself wrote that even one of Majlesi books is enough to destroy a country and we have over 16 of them.
There are lots to say on this but may be some other time!
Reclaim your name @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com. Get your new email address now! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/
Pacifist
Sep 25, 2009, 1:42:36 AM9/25/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Salam,
We cannot pretend that a bicycle is an aeroplane (and vice versa). Of
course, you are welcome to do so but you cannot be takken seriously if
you do.
The Zoroastrian community (the majority of whom are Parsis of India)
have evolved a modus vivendi that identifies them as a group of
people. They may not follow Zarathustra's teachings but all religions
evolve. (Can you say that today's Christians are following Christ's
teaching?). Therefore, if your way of life does not match that of
today's Zoroastrians, you ought to label yourself as something else.
It is entirely up to you to do so or not (who is going to enforce it
anyhow?) but I think it is best to label oneself correctly.
Bar gharaar baashid,
P
We cannot pretend that a bicycle is an aeroplane (and vice versa). Of
course, you are welcome to do so but you cannot be takken seriously if
you do.
The Zoroastrian community (the majority of whom are Parsis of India)
have evolved a modus vivendi that identifies them as a group of
people. They may not follow Zarathustra's teachings but all religions
evolve. (Can you say that today's Christians are following Christ's
teaching?). Therefore, if your way of life does not match that of
today's Zoroastrians, you ought to label yourself as something else.
It is entirely up to you to do so or not (who is going to enforce it
anyhow?) but I think it is best to label oneself correctly.
Bar gharaar baashid,
P
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 25, 2009, 10:36:48 AM9/25/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Now you are joking pacifist! and I won't be taken serious by who? by you?!! As far as I know the case is totally opposite! Again for the 10th time: NO ZOROASTRIAN THAT I KNOW IS FOLLOWING SAD DAR OR GIVE A HANG ABOUT IT! Is that clear?! or you want to go on forever?! Where do you get your information from anyways to make such concrete claims? Did you conduct a census (sarshomari) on Zoroastians world wide that how they practice their faith? Please be rational and don’t try to make baseless claims on issues that you may not be so familiar with rather than feeling to be an expert on everything or trying to mask things to show them to your like! As far as I can see you have no info and your claim is just based on one little component of a website which is under question altogether! I said before and say it again, there are a couple of Zoroastirans parties who accuse each other of spying for IRI and Israel vise verse! So you base all your knowledge on one
of there websites! Period! They have a mission of course!
By the way I am wondering if you are a Muslim or a Jew?!
__________________________________________________________________
Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/
of there websites! Period! They have a mission of course!
By the way I am wondering if you are a Muslim or a Jew?!
Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/
Pacifist
Sep 26, 2009, 9:31:44 AM9/26/09
to Iranian Democratic Forum
Salam,
Just curiosu to know how many Zoroastrians you personally know? I mean
real ones who were born into Zoroastrian families and not "Los
Angelesi wannabee" ones.
Bestest,
P
Just curiosu to know how many Zoroastrians you personally know? I mean
real ones who were born into Zoroastrian families and not "Los
Angelesi wannabee" ones.
Bestest,
P
tara farhid-gallo
Sep 26, 2009, 12:04:51 PM9/26/09
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Ba doroud,
I have personally went to a Zoroastrian school in Tehran and surrounded by Zoroastrian friends/families! Recently I have also asked a very good Zoroastrian friend of mine from the city of Balkh (Ashu Zartosht's birth place), born to a Zoroastrian family who is one of the greatest believers and quite knowledgeable but he said that he has not even heard of this book (Sad Dar). He told me that he is gonna investigate more and gets back to me but he was also quite suspicious about the whole thing the same way I am!
So now to me it is crystal clear that the owner of these sites and people like Humer Abramian are Israeli or IRI agents to dig dirt and mask the truth. Humer Abramian is even after leadership of Zoroastrian community while being a non-Iranian / an Ashuri guy with very frequent trips to Israel! Ashur was the number 1 enemy of Iran that used to invade iran (Susa / Ecbatana ) mercilessly and destroy our cities to the ground and enslaved / blinded people while Medians finally destroyed them once and for all. Interestingly enough Iranian children at schools learnt the phrase "Neinava (Ashur Capital) bayyad az bein beravad". So typically it is hardly unlikely that an Ashuri guy would be so fascinated with Iranian philosophy to the extend that would want to have leadership role given the old animosity between the two nations.
Best, Tara
I have personally went to a Zoroastrian school in Tehran and surrounded by Zoroastrian friends/families! Recently I have also asked a very good Zoroastrian friend of mine from the city of Balkh (Ashu Zartosht's birth place), born to a Zoroastrian family who is one of the greatest believers and quite knowledgeable but he said that he has not even heard of this book (Sad Dar). He told me that he is gonna investigate more and gets back to me but he was also quite suspicious about the whole thing the same way I am!
So now to me it is crystal clear that the owner of these sites and people like Humer Abramian are Israeli or IRI agents to dig dirt and mask the truth. Humer Abramian is even after leadership of Zoroastrian community while being a non-Iranian / an Ashuri guy with very frequent trips to Israel! Ashur was the number 1 enemy of Iran that used to invade iran (Susa / Ecbatana ) mercilessly and destroy our cities to the ground and enslaved / blinded people while Medians finally destroyed them once and for all. Interestingly enough Iranian children at schools learnt the phrase "Neinava (Ashur Capital) bayyad az bein beravad". So typically it is hardly unlikely that an Ashuri guy would be so fascinated with Iranian philosophy to the extend that would want to have leadership role given the old animosity between the two nations.
Best, Tara
tara farhid-gallo
Jul 15, 2010, 3:22:04 PM7/15/10
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Doroud bar shoma Kaveh jaan,
This guy is Muslim but very pro Judaism / altogether "Babel / Beinolnahrein Mehvar". There have been very steamy argument between us for few times. I really love to share them with you but I hope I won't bother you a lot as I know that you are busy.
This one is on the book of "sad dar". It is interesting that he never brings anything to defend Islam but he keeps digging dirt on Zoroastrianism to at least tone it down and show it as nasty as other religions. these guys are extremely terrified of Zoroastrianism. Although it is a religion with the least population of followers but it is so sophisticated and strong that scare them to death. It threatens all Abrahamic religions specially if the truth come out that all concepts of Judaism was borrowed or "Hijacked" from Zoroastrianism! I think this in part is one of the reasons why there are so much propaganda and cash investments against Iran’s culture / history. We know that Jews are in control of the world and they do anything to remain there and reducing the importance of there religion and proving that it is a mere copy of Zoroastrianism (not even nearly as good) does not exactly help them on this pursuit and can give them some chills.
I had some other discusstion with this guy on this topic that I send next. also some topics on Ferdosi and Hafez.
sarfaraz ve pirooz bashid,
be sepaas faravan, Tara
From: tara farhid-gallo <tfarhi...@yahoo.ca>
To: Iranian-Demo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, September 23, 2009 2:47:26 AM
Subject: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Mr Pacifist,
Please note that Zoroastrianism is based on one and very simple facts of "Good Deeds, Good Thoughts & Good Words" and there is only one SOURCE for REFERENCE, nothing more, "GATHAHA". This is the only book known per sure that is Ashu Zartosht's and nothing more. It has been well established that Avesta is the Zoroastrian's book but what they consider as Avesta is a combination of 5 books which includes "Vandidad" that is well known and proved to have literature of Pre-Zoroastrians. This is just a book of Aryan customs before Ashu Zartosht and as a matter of facts, this book exactly congaing some element of believes (Div Parasti) that Ashu Zartosht was fighting against and trying to destroy.
Just as an example, when referring to "Hoama, a Alcoholic Drink know to the time" and claimed to be a Zoroastrian's accepted custom, in "Gathaha" Soroud-e Sizdahom (13), 48/10, Ashu Zartosht states:
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
"Ey Mazda
Key Mardom Ayeen to ra khahand Yaaft?
Key in ZAHRABEYE Divanegi aavar (Hoame) khahad Oftaad?
This simply proves that Zoroaster was against and fighting as DIV_PARASTI.
Moreover it seems that there are many people trying to use our people's love for their ancestor's culture for their own political gains. Some are actually IRI guys and particularly speaking, I am aware of some conflict between the Avesta site owner and one separated from while ago, accusing each other on charge of spying for Islamic republic and other for Israel. They both are clever and God knows maybe even work together, and know about the nuances of this era that Iranians and some other nations /tribes are reviving there true culture in search for their true identity and as such these forces make plans for the years to come as to how to pick the fruits on time and use this opportunity to turn it around to their benefits, There are some other very suspicious Zoroastrian sources/figures namely Mr Humer Abramian who is very vocal on Zoroastrian beliefs these days and holds many conferences/seminars worldwide and writs handful of books/articles,
however he is an Asuri guy who claims to be Zoroastrian (we all know that Ashur was destroyed by Medians!) and by the way he has had numerous trips to Israeli which is quite suspicious. I think these people have some agendas. so for resources on Zoroastrianism you need to be careful! you cannot pull any book which is written by Mr. Joe Zoroastrian/claiming to be one and argue about it! There are over 200 sect in Islam that they all fight with each other and they have no regards for books written by one another but thay all follow Quran! right!
Another issue which may lead to a confusion is that the book that you pointed on is written in 1885. around that time Europeans started to discover Zoroastrianism and learn that many of Abrahamic religious concepts are originally / directly driven and inspired from Zoroastrianism. That's why they were interested to learn more and started translating some Zoroastrian references (Darmister the most famous of them). However their resources were not as great as it is know and their knowledge of the old Avestan and Pahlavi language leda to a very poor and many cases ridiculous translations. We had a discussion while back about languages here, so to provide you with some info. during Sassanid era there were about six scripts (Dabire) used in Iran, one of which being Pahlavi. Pahlavi was the most simple one (Amiaaneh) with only 16 alphabets whereas the most sophisticated one was "Dine Dabire" or "Avestan" with 97 alphabets which was so vast that could
even capture the sound of the waterfall/rain! Another script was "Khate Aamaar" which was the one that Ebne Moghafaa exactly entered to Arabic Language and used it to structure Arabic (olgooye zabane Arabi)! There were also Musical Language which Abureihane Biruni in Tasnife Musighi refers to it (so we had music notes too)! There were also another script called "Khte Shahi" which was a secret language only for the kings!
As I mentioned as the western researchers at the time did not have enough skills in the Pahlavi language given the limited alphabet (16) they did a very poor job at the first time (1885). for instance in the book you referred to "Vohuman" is
translated to bird while it's true meaning is "Andishe" not bird! Later when the western researchers developed better skills on old Persian scripts they did a much better job and found the older translations just so stupid/inaccurate!
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
So if you want to really learn about Zoroastrianism you should never rely on the documents translated in that era and should use more credible sources (not Israeli sources!!). The most credible sources on Zoroastrianism today are Professor Martin Schwartz (U of Berkley) and Professor Mary Boice (U of Standford and Harward too perhaps):
http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_schwartz.html
They both are the greatest reference on Zoroastrianism and very knowledgeable.
Here are some quotes from
Mary_Boyce:
"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.
Here are also some other sites which are a lot more reliable on Zoroastrianism that the sites under question that you used:
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
http://www.zarathushtra.com/z/links/index.htm
So most of those notes on the subject book are from "Vandidad" which are pre-Zoroastrian Arian culture that Zoroaster was actually fighting them! The Gatas unlike all other scriptures have no fanatic ridiculous jokes! But we can never rely on any book that some Mr. Joe so called Zoroastrian writes / or whoever claims to be Zoroastrian with a hidden agenda!
Notwithstanding I remember that you had a post long ago which discussed some very odd /ridiculous things in Torah (big dish of dirt)! Remember! so...
And I thought to post the following quotes from Quran itself (not some book) that you may find interesting (don't miss them on the bottom).
Have fun, Tara
فانکحوا ما طاب لکم من النساء مثنی وثلاث ورباع"
مرد می تواند تا چهار زن برای خود اختیار کند
از میان زنانی که مناسب شما می آیند (می توانید)دو - سه یا چهار زن اختیار کنید (آیه 3سوره نساء
نساء 24
فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَریضَةً
پس هر گاه از خانمها بهره جنسی بردید پاداش آنها را به آنها بدهید.
النبأ : 33
إِنَّ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ مَفَازًا(31)
حَدَائقَ وَ أَعْنَابًا(32)
وَ كَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَابًا(33
مسلّماً براى پرهيزگاران نجات و پيروزى بزرگى است: (31
وبرای آنهاست باغهايى سرسبز، و انواع انگورها، (32
و حوريانى با سینه های نرم و بزرگو همسن و سال، (33
در سوره 28 توبه می گوید ای مومنان مشرکان نجسندونباید از این پس به مسجد الحرام وارد شوند واگر شما از کاهش
آیه282 بقره:".....فان لم یکونا رجلین فرجل وامراتان"
شاهد باید دو مرد یا یک مرد ودو زن باشد در واقع در اسلام ارزش شهادت یک مرد مساوی با دو زن قرار داده شده است
مردان از زنان بهترند (برترند)
آیه: "وللرجال علیهن درجه (228 بقره
مردان از زنان بهترند (برترند)
آیه: "وللرجال علیهن درجه (228 بقره
اگر زنان نافرمانی کردند آنها را بزنید34/ نساء
" واللاتی تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن فی المضاجع فاضربوهن
" واللاتی تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن واهجروهن فی المضاجع فاضربوهن
ریشه کن کردن آیین های ایرانی:رسول خدا صلی الله علیه وآله فرمودند : دو روز از روزهای شما را خداوند تبارک و تعالی با دو روز دیگر تعویض کرد :روز نوروز و روز مهرگان را با عید فطر و عید قربان .
مستدركالوسائل 6 153
طبق آیه 36 ونیزآیه 50 تا 52 سوره احزاب
در باب امورات زناشویی پیامبر اکرم:
آیه 36 " وما کان لمومن ولا مومنه اذا قضی الله ورسوله امرا ان یکون لهم الخیره من امرهم ومن یعص الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالا مبینا
مستدركالوسائل 6 153
طبق آیه 36 ونیزآیه 50 تا 52 سوره احزاب
در باب امورات زناشویی پیامبر اکرم:
آیه 36 " وما کان لمومن ولا مومنه اذا قضی الله ورسوله امرا ان یکون لهم الخیره من امرهم ومن یعص الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالا مبینا
----- Original Message ----
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
From: Pacifist <mushr...@hotmail.com>
To: Iranian Democratic Forum <iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com>
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tara farhid-gallo
Jul 15, 2010, 3:25:35 PM7/15/10
to iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Please ignore this massage as it was mentioned to be sent to a friend of mine who raised a question about an off - topic issue. It was sent to the forum by mistake!
Best, T
To: iranian-demo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 3:22:04 PM
Subject: Re: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 3:22:04 PM
Subject: Re: [IDF] Re: 100 steps to becoming a practising Zoroastrian
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