Your self-introduction

[Jacky Foo]

Source: http://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/node/view/987
+++++++

----forwarded message----(edited)
Your self-introduction
Submitted by IOBB Editor on Sat, 11/08/2007 - 19:10.
"Dark Earth Trial (June, 2006 to December 2006)" for sustainable crop
production in Nicaragua. ">Dark Earth Soils used by the tribes of the
Amazon

Hi
Please feel free to introduce yourself and tell us more about your
work on "soils".

regards
jacky foo

[Mel Landers]

Hi Jacky,

 

I just returned from Costa rica. I can not, at this moment, use the internet at the cyber Cafe I need to use each day. That presents a problem with me logging on because I have to give server information to get started. I will try to het on later today.

 

mel

Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

---

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[Mel Landers]

Hi,

 

I appologise for my lack of know how on the internet. I am much more comfortable with a shovel than with a mouse and keyboard. Since it would appear myresponses are goiing on to the seminar page, I will use this letter to give an idea of who I am, in response to Jacky's request.

 

The introduction I submitted gives the major details of who I am and what I am doing concerning production techniques.

 

I am not a soil scientist or agronomist. Most of what I know about soils, I have learned from studying the writings of people such as Dr. Ingham of the soilfoodweb and others. I dropped out of Colorado University in my Junior year to buy a farm and experiment with Native American farming methods. I had learned how to study and how to do science, Most of my experimentation, however has dealt with adaptive investigations of techniques and crops.

 

I studied environmental biology and still tend to view plant growth from an environmental perspective. I was a small scale organic producer for twenty years and that gives me an understanding of the challenges and frustrations experienced by people who are trying to make a living with little more than their hands.

 

I have also kept a close eye on temperature, precipitation and severe weather changes that have been taking place over the last several decades. When I began farming in 1981, we had long periods of drizzle each spring and fall; the result of weak, slow moving low pressure systems. By the time Il left the farm at the beginning of this century, that was a thing of the past. Now, only stong low pressure systems can push their way through the strong high pressure systems that move off of the Pacific Ocean. They dump the same amount of rain, but it alll comes in heavy downpours that don't soak into the soil.

 

This sort of thing is happening over much of the world and most producers are in need of a way to harvest and use more of the rain that falls on their land. That is mainly what I am offering. But, I am also aware of the great need for improving the soils itself. That is why I was interested in this seminar. I believe that the Dark Earth Soils will be the major key to improving the quality of the worlds soils.

 

I found out about these soils by accident one evening while waiting for some friends. I picked up a copy of a periodicl that had an article about it. I immediately started asking questions of friends who could answer the questions I had about the technology. Within a week, I had built my first trial bed at the ECHO (Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization demonstration farm in Ft. Meyers Florida. When I returned their a half year later, the site had been graded to make way for tree crops.

 

I had not been in one place long enopugh since then to repeat the trial until this last year. A friend found me a generous supply of waste from crude charcoal production and I built a six meter long bed with a half ton of charcoal inside. That is where I got the photos for the document I submitted to begin the seminar. Within six months, the majority of the biomass had decomposed, despite severe El Niño induced drought conditions.

 

The man in control of that site has just recently started a comparison trial between that bed and a normal mulched raised bed. We should have the results within a few months. I consented to the seminar at this time in hopes of encouraging others to begin trials of their own; with their own ideas and under their own conditions.

 

I hope the participants will be interested enough to try this on their own.

 

mel

Mel Landers <agr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

---

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[Mel Landers]

Hi Dan,

 

I myself, farmed near you in Missouri.

 

Of course I cannot tell you how well the dark earth soils might form in the drier parts of Kansas, but I had success here under drought conditions last year. I encourage you to give it a try. I am sure their perfiormance would be to your liking, especially if you take the trouble to develop humus in the soil as well. These two ingredients should greatly increase your water holding capacity.

 

I will attach a document to this letter which describes the basic Native American technique of mulched raised beds. This method can allow you to harvest 100% of the rain instead of the 10% that is available on plowed soil.

 

Several Universities are working on the collection of biochar as a result of pyrolysis. They seem to be encouraged by the results and are proposing the use of many types of feedstocks for the process.

 

Of course the more dense materials would produce the greatest amount of charred material. But, I don't think anyone yet knows whether charred material from dense materials will out perform that from soft materials. I know that investigations are ongoing in this regard though. I will check some material sent by a friend, Scott devine, who has been working with this.

 

I will let you know what I find out.

 

I am hoping to soon have large amounts of stalks from the Moringa tree; a waste product from the use of the leaves as feed for livestock. The stems are very soft, mostly cellulose, due to the nature of the wood and because the plants are cut every 45 days, before the stems have a chance to harden. I am hoping that this easily powdered charred material will provide a maximum chelating effect.

 

The potential for Carbon Sequestration is tremendous. One major reason for the project with the moringa trees is for that specific purpose. We recently ran some numbers and figured that we could sequester over a billion tons of Carbon in Nicaragua alone. That does not include the Carbon sequestered by the stable humus. Charcoal is stable for up to thousands of years. Humus is stable for hunmdreds and possibly over a thousand years once it is mature.

 

The challenge will be to sequester atmospheric Carbon in dry regions. It was revealed this week that trees grown on dry soils do not efficiently sequester atmospheric Carbon. So, it is doubly important that people wanting to form dark earth soils harvest the maximum amount of rainfall possible. With much of the Northern hemisphere drying up rapidly, there would need to be a major revolution against the plow. It seems that Faulkners "The Plowmans folly" is applicable to our day.

Many people could seek out processing wastes for the production of charred material. In Kansas you may need to try straw!?  Or maybe you should try growing  afast growing weedy tree on raised beds.

 

mel

 

 

Hi,  My name is Dan Nagengast.  I live and farm in Kansas.  I'm
involved in sustainable agriculture and renewable energy issues. I'm
interested in bio char as a soil amendment and would like to
understand whether using pyrolysis to create biofuels from cellulose
would produce substantial quantities of bio char.  Secondly, how crops
react to dark earth soils created using bio char in a relatively low-
rainfall region like Kansas.  And thirdly, the potential for carbon
sequestration.

---

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[nage...@earthlink.net]

Hi, My name is Dan Nagengast. I live and farm in Kansas. I'm
involved in sustainable agriculture and renewable energy issues. I'm
interested in bio char as a soil amendment and would like to
understand whether using pyrolysis to create biofuels from cellulose
would produce substantial quantities of bio char. Secondly, how crops
react to dark earth soils created using bio char in a relatively low-
rainfall region like Kansas. And thirdly, the potential for carbon
sequestration.

[Jacky Foo]

Source: http://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/node/view/986#comment-3384
++++++

charred materials from dense and soft materials
Submitted by Jacky Foo on Mon, 13/08/2007 - 07:40.

Mel wrote:
ML>Several universities are working on the collection of

>biochar as a result of pyrolysis. They seem to be encouraged
>by the results and are proposing the use of many types of
>feedstocks for the process.
>
>Of course the more dense materials would produce the
>greatest amount of charred material. But, I don't
>think anyone yet knows whether charred material
>from dense materials will out perform that from
>soft materials.

As early as 1995 I met a Japanese group that was looking into making
charred materials from various sources (rice husk, wood chips and
wastes, oil palm nut shells, various nut shells, etc). Their market
was for golf courses and also the traditional use at the bottom of
Japanese houses.

Golf courses need to be well drained and yet need to be green. So the
Japanese have been using a layer of charred materials to capture the
fertiliser they put on the grass. Slow-release fertilser pellets are
available but more expensive. Charred materials are also put between
the ground and the elavated floor of traditional Japanese houses.
Charcoal absorbs the smell that may develop under their homes.

Japanese wastewater treatment companies were also testing such
materials too. They found out that charred oil palm nuts were the best
because of the size of the pores in the charred nuts that favoured
attachment/habitat for the microorganizms.

I guess is that for soft materials, pores will collapse when the
materials are charred. The denser the materials with lignin, the
structure of the pores may survive better during the heat process. You
should be able to see these pores in charred materials in an electron
microscope.

The role of charred materials in the soil is however in their ability
to absorb the nutrients. I have little knowledge in this area and will
look forward to comments.

-----
Jacky Foo
http://www.iobbnet.org

[Jacky Foo]

Source: http://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/node/view/987#comment-3386
+++++++
Intro For Dark Earth Soils
Submitted by Paul Totterdell on Mon, 13/08/2007 - 16:34.

Hi, My name is Paul Totterdell, I am a horticulturist working in
Australia and elsewhere with sub-soil water retention, treatment and
recycling. I am very interested in this subject. I am also interested
in the potential for carbon seqestration.
+++++

[Jacky Foo]

On Aug 13, 3:02 am, Mel Landers wrote:
> .....I was a small scale organic producer for twenty years

> I found out about these soils by accident one evening
>while waiting for some friends. I picked up a copy of a periodicl

>that had an article about it. ..........

>Within a week, I had built my first trial bed at the ECHO
>(Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization demonstration
>farm in Ft. Meyers Florida.

Hi Mel
I am just curious about how you landed in Nicaragua and Central
America ?

Would be interesting to hear more ......

regards
jacky

[Mel Landers]

Well.... I was on my way back to Peru to build a huge agricultural Training Center in the Peruvian Amazon at the beginning of 2003. I was teaching at the Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization (ECHO) International Agricultural Missions Conference in Nov. 2002. I went there in September to build beds and plant crops so they would be reay for the conference in November. During that time, I was asked to help with problems at a center in Nicaragua. So, I stopped by for a 10 day visit after completing some work in Mexico.

 

I have not been back to Peru yet, but I am almost ready. I have been learning a better way to do agricultural training, one village at a time.

 

I am training trainers who can set up a resource center ineach community at a price of less than a hundred dollars a village. The center in Peru was to run into the thousands of dollars.

 

I am looking forward to getting back to Peru again, but hope to continue basing myself in Nicaragua from now on.

 

mel

 

Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jacky Foo]

On 23/08/07, Mel Landers <agr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am training trainers who can set up a resource center in each
>community at a price of less than a hundred dollars a village.

Is ECHO funding your activities ?
and how ?

regards
jacky

[Mel Landers]

Hi Jacky,

 

Jacky asked: Is ECHO funding your activities ? and how ?

No, ECHO does not fund anyone outside the U.S. They do not have the resources for that. I am an independent agricultural Missionary. I have some friends who send me adequate money to keep me going. I live a simple life and so do not need a lot.

Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 23/08/07, Mel Landers wrote:
> I am training trainers who can set up a resource center in each
>community at a price of less than a hundred dollars a village.

Is ECHO funding your activities ?
and how ?

regards
jacky

---

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[Jacky Foo]

On 23/08/07, Mel Landers <agr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I am an independent agricultural Missionary. I have some
> friends who send me adequate money to keep me going. I live a simple life
> and so do not need a lot.

would you come to Kenya on similar terms (in the future?) ?

regards
jacky

[Mel Landers]

Hi Jacky,

 

You wrote: would you come to Kenya on similar terms (in the future?) ?

 

 

I have had a project waiting in Kenya for three years. If I have a round trip ticket and a place to stay, I will bring my hammock. I also have others already there who would probably join us to accomplish a project. I pprobably would not be able to stay too long. But, my friends who are there nay be able to help longer if you can collaborate with the.

 

mel

Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 23/08/07, Mel Landers wrote:
>I am an independent agricultural Missionary. I have some
> friends who send me adequate money to keep me going. I live a simple life
> and so do not need a lot.

would you come to Kenya on similar terms (in the future?) ?

regards
jacky

---

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Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Jacky Foo]

On 24/08/07, Mel Landers <agr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have had a project waiting in Kenya for three years. If I have a round
> trip ticket and a place to stay, I will bring my hammock. I also have others
> already there who would probably join us to accomplish a project. I
> pprobably would not be able to stay too long. But, my friends who are there
> nay be able to help longer if you can collaborate with the.

(i) great ..... and how long a stay is "not too long"
(ii) do you have international travel and health insuarance ?

tell us more about your Kenyan project (e.g. does it involve raised
bed, making charred materials and using them) and who are your
friends there and in which city ?

regards
jacky

[Daniel Nagengast]

Hello all,

Thanks for the continuing information.

Here are a couple more questions.

What is/was the role of pottery shards in the Amazonian dark earth
soils? Is there evidence they were incorporated with an agronomic
intent? Do they serve a soil texture function? Do they react
chemically to bind nutrients to a differing degree than char? Do they
wick and hold soil moisture? Has anyone experimented with humus/char
mixtures with and without the pottery, and if so, what were the effects
on plant growth?

I have a second line of questions which may be more appropriate for
another list. Perhaps someone here has worked on this though. The
products of pyrolysis of wood and/or grass and crop wastes can include
various alcohol compounds, as I understand it. And it was mentioned on
this list that wood vinegar could also be a product that might be used
as a fertilizer. Is there an understanding of the energy value of
these products if combusted in some kind of cogeneration scheme? Since
much of the carbon would have been separated out as charcoal, would
there be less release of greenhouse CO2 when/if it was combusted for
energy generation purposes? What about other greenhouse gases? The
reason I ask is that I'm interested in understanding how we might
utilize biomass for energy generation, avoid releasing the carbon into
the atmosphere while conserving and utilizing the char in crop
production. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Dan Nagengast

Dan Nagengast
785-748-0959
785-748-0609 fax
nage...@earthlink.net
www.kansasruralcenter.org

[Daniel Nagengast]

Hello all,

Here are some interesting resources.

Dan

Terra preta: Intentional use of charcoal in soil.
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/
Lots of studies on making charcoal from different biomass, as well as
soil studies.

Here's the Cornell website maintained by Johannes Lehmann:
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_home.htm

Here's a nice little flash video that explains the issue very
succinctly from a company called EPRIDA:
http://www.eprida.com/eprida_flash.php4
Here's a note on EPRIDA from the SANET discussion on
But Lehmann and his colleagues don't see biofuel as an alternative to
char -
they see the two developing hand in hand. Take the work of Danny Day,
the
founder of Eprida. This "for-profit social-purpose enterprise" in
Athens,
Georgia, builds contraptions that farmers can use to turn farm waste
into
biofuel while making char. Farm waste (or a crop designed for biofuel
use)
is smouldered - pyrolysed, in the jargon - and this process gives off
volatile organic molecules, which can be used as a basis for biodiesel
or
turned into hydrogen with the help of steam. After the pyrolysation,
half of
the starting material will be used up and half will be char. That can
then
be put back on the fields, where it will sequester carbon and help grow
the
next crop.

The remarkable thing about this process is that, even after the fuel has
been burned, more carbon dioxide is removed from the atmosphere than is
put
back. Traditional biofuels claim to be 'carbon neutral', because the
carbon
dioxide assimilated by the growing biomass makes up for the carbon
dioxide
given off by the burning of the fuel. But as Lehmann points out, systems
such as Day's go one step further: "They are the only way to make a fuel
that is actually carbon negative".

Here's the link to the SANET discussion:
http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0608&L=sanet-mg&P=4225

[Mel Landers]

Hi Daniel,

 

I will address your first questions below. You do ask good questions. I am so glad you asked about the pottery shards. I have neglected to address this so far. Anyone with bits of fired clay available will want to include them in the mix for the soils. Please, see my response below.

 

In order to adress your second set of questions, I have CC'd Michael Ott of BIOWA, which is a collaboration among alternative energy companies. Michael is the head of BIOWA. He is quite knowlegeable in the area to which you have referred concerning the energy otputs from`pyrolysis. I have no answers to those questions myself. I am CC'ng Michael because it appears you are interested in doing large scale production. He is the person who can make that happen.

 

Michael, this E-mail is part of an on line seminar concerning the production of Dark earth Soils. I did not invite you to participate because of your schedule and the fact that the soils themselves are not producers of energy and therefore not in your line of work. Any response will go out to the group. But, your responses may be of interest to them.

 

Daniel askes:

I have a second line of questions which may be more appropriate for
another list. Perhaps someone here has worked on this though. The
products of pyrolysis of wood and/or grass and crop wastes can include
various alcohol compounds, as I understand it. And it was mentioned on
this list that wood vinegar could also be a product that might be used
as a fertilizer. Is there an understanding of the energy value of
these products if combusted in some kind of cogeneration scheme? Since
much of the carbon would have been separated out as charcoal, would
there be less release of greenhouse CO2 when/if it was combusted for
energy generation purposes? What about other greenhouse gases? The
reason I ask is that I'm interested in understanding how we might
utilize biomass for energy generation, avoid releasing the carbon into
the atmosphere while conserving and utilizing the char in crop
production. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Daniel also askes:

What is/was the role of pottery shards in the Amazonian dark earth
soils? Is there evidence they were incorporated with an agronomic
intent? Do they serve a soil texture function? Do they react
chemically to bind nutrients to a differing degree than char? Do they
wick and hold soil moisture? Has anyone experimented with humus/char
mixtures with and without the pottery, and if so, what were the effects
on plant growth?

The Amazon River Basin is one big settling pond for eroded rock from the Andes Mountains. There are gigantic, state sized swamps such as the one in which I worked back in 1969. The soil is similar in texture to a river delta. The composition is predominantly clay, with some sand in the river beds, but little in the raised areas above the river beds.

 

The uniform size of the soil particles is another of the persistent problems with the native soils. Another is the toxic amount of Aluminium in the soil. The charcoal component of the dark earth soils neutralizes the Aluminium. The humus helps separate the clay particles in the native soils. But, there are no larger particulates, which are important to the structure of the soil.

 

Sand helps break up this uniform texture. The Native American Farmers scooped up large amounts of it from river beds and used it on their raised beds. This also provided plants with nutrients present in the muck, derived from fish manure. But, for larger soil particles they relied on bits of fired clay. Whether this was intentional or simply a result of the disposal of broken pottery is subject to debate. But, since there are rarely any large pieces of pottery found, it would appear that the farmers broke their old pots into small pieces before putting them into the soil.

 

I have noticed that there are only small pieces of pottery in the soil here in Nicaragua as well. These soils were also farmed for thousands of years. There should be some large pieces if the small size was not intentional. No, there are no dark earth soils here. But, these soils have been ploughed over the last 500 years, not left as they were when their owners died. Considering the present rate of erosion, it is probable that a couple meters of soil (and whatever humus was present) have been relocated into the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans from here.

 

The larger particle size is important for loosening compacted soil and for the creation of spaces, which provide Oxygen to the roots. As you have indicated by your question, the pieces of fired clay are important in nutrient and moisture retention. Almost no one I have ever spoken with, about the shards, has given this any thought. Only one lady in Florida, who's grandmother was a Native American, mentioned its importance in this regard. She said her Grandmother had taught her everything there is to know about the earth. Although I did not believe her statement, Her comments almost indicated that would be true.

 

If you have ever seen a fired clay pot that has been used to grow a plant fertilized with commercial nutrients, you will have noticed a white residue covering the lower surface of the pot. That is made up of mineral salts. Before the film develops on the outside of the pot, there are deposits within the pot wall. Firing creates tiny spaces in which mineral salts readily collect.

 

When describing the dark earth soil production process, I usually describe it as a garbage pile covered with soil. When the organic components of this garbage pile decompose, nutrients are, of course released. As a chelating agent, humus is more reactive than charcoal and therefore more readily releases nutrients. Charcoal, by its physical nature is more reactive than fired clay. This is because the clay actually has a physical barrier to the release of nutrients from the internal compartments. Plant roots cannot enter the wall of the shard.

 

An experiment in the production of edible mushrooms, I performed a few years ago, helped me understand how the shards give up their nutrients over time. While teaching a local agronomist how to grow edible and medicinal mushrooms, I introduced substrate and spawn into a fired clay water filter. It looks like a flower pot with a wider lip. These filters are fired with a little sawdust in the clay. The resultant porosity aids the flow of water through the filter. To my surprise, I got no mushrooms on the upper substrate surface. But, I did get large blue oyster mushrooms forming on the sides of the filters. The mycelia grew right through the walls of the "pots." To some extent, the mycelia of mycorrhizal fungi are bound to harvest nutrients from the shards in dark earth soils; thereafter donating them to hungry plants.

 

As anyone can attest, fired clay also holds moisture well. I did include bits of fired clay in my first dark earth bed at the ECHO farm in 2002. But, that one was bulldozed clean in order to make room for the planting of a tropical tree demonstration. So, I have no results to go on. Sadly, most people who are experimenting with dark earth soils are taking the easy way out and merely adding charcoal to soils. As you have noticed, there are other important components in these soils. There is a lot of research yet to be done.

 

I would love to build a bed that included a healthy amount of fired clay from old roof tiles here. But, I have no way to transport them. It was a challenge for me even to get the charcoal I incorporated in last year's bed. I have a good understanding of what needs to be done. But, I have neither the time, location nor the pickup needed to do adequate investigations. I hope that will soon change. We will see what the Lord provides.

Daniel Nagengast <nage...@earthlink.net> wrote:

---

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[Mel Landers]

Hi all,

 

Although I have a great deal of respect for Johannes Lehmann and all the other professors who have contributed to our knowlege of the dark earth soils, I am appalled at their continual insistance that dark earth soils can be created by incorporating charred biomass into poor soils, without intentionally increasing the levels of humus as well.

 

This is why I have harped about this all the way through this seminar, so far. There is no reason to believe that simply incorporating bio-char into soils will produce the desired result.

 

EPRIDA and the other commercial ventures begun so far are ignoring important aspects of these soils. My hope is that I can successfully demonstate the comprehensive alternative here in Nicaragua. That will take time and money though, so that may not happen anytime soon.

 

mel

Daniel Nagengast <nage...@earthlink.net> wrote:

---

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Daniel Nagengast]

If one were to use pyrolysis on organic materials in order to obtain
charcoal, alcohols and other compounds, I wonder if you could introduce
unfired clay bits into your container at the same time you were
heating the organic materials and wind up with a fired clay and
charcoal mix after the liquids were withdrawn? Maybe that strange mix
would cause a glaze on the clay bits, I don't know. That mixture could
then become a component with humus when creating beds or in composting
operations.

I like to think of a solar heated retort for all this, just to avoid
combustion. I wonder if therein one finds any response to the
important questions Hans-Andre Pitot raises. Solar fired pyrolysis
would avoid combustion and smoke to some extent. It would fix the
carbon component as a slowly degradable solid. Presumably some of the
other greenhouse gases would not be manufactured without oxygen
available, but there are still volatiles I suppose, which would have to
be drawn off and sequestered or they would escape into the atmosphere.
The liquid components would also contain many of the precursor elements
and compounds found in GHG, and those may still volatize when applied
or used. Who knows.

Also, there is another scary issue, whether the retort needs to be as
stout as a pressure cooker because of expanding gases, or would
something more jerrybuilt suffice? If so, for cultures without a lot
of cash, pyrolysis would be beyond their means, and smoldering fire may
be the most possible option.

Dan N.

On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:45 AM, Mel Landers wrote:

>
> As anyone can attest, fired clay also holds moisture well. I did
> include bits of fired clay in my first dark earth bed at the ECHO
> farm in 2002. But, that one was bulldozed clean in order to make room
> for the planting of a tropical tree demonstration. So, I have no
> results to go on. Sadly, most people who are experimenting with dark
> earth soils are taking the easy way out and merely adding charcoal to
> soils. As you have noticed, there are other important components in
> these soils. There is a lot of research yet to be done.

[Jacky Foo]

On 24/08/07, Mel Landers <agr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In order to adress your second set of questions, I have CC'd

>Michael Ott of BIOWA.....(cut)...He is quite knowlegeable in the
>area (pyrolysis).

ML wrote:>....The Native American Farmers

> scooped up large amounts of it from river beds and
>used it on their raised beds. This also provided plants
>with nutrients present in the muck, derived
> from fish manure.

many natives all over the world do this

>But, for larger soil particles they relied on bits of
> fired clay. Whether this was intentional or simply a
>result of the disposal of broken pottery is subject to
>debate. But, since there are rarely any large pieces
>of pottery found, it would appear that the farmers
>broke their old pots into small pieces before putting
>them into the soil.

for the sake of discussion:
if I am a native and use muck, I would use sand to loosen compacted soil.

If Natives have discovered the use of broken pottery (shards) to
enhance growth of plant, and would like to produce more shards, the
the easiest way is to make flat sheets of clay, fire them and then
break them. So these pieces should not look like broken pottery. So
the question is : were the shards from a flat fired clay or from a
clay pot ?

> If you have ever seen a fired clay pot that has been used to grow a plant
> fertilized with commercial nutrients, you will have noticed a white residue
> covering the lower surface of the pot. That is made up of mineral salts.
> Before the film develops on the outside of the pot, there are deposits
> within the pot wall. Firing creates tiny spaces in which mineral salts
> readily collect.

I think you cant equate the salts from a pot to mineral salt
absorption by shards.
In a clay pot salt accummulate because the water comes out by gravity
and salts accumulate as the water dries (as as in a limestone cave)

Unless clay pots were used to hold water and after some time, when
salts accumulated outside the pot, the Natives would throw away these
pots to replace new ones. These backyard "dump" sites would also be
their backyard garden.

>These filters are fired with a little sawdust in the clay. The
resultant porosity
>aids the flow of water through the filter.

This is interesting and I wonder if the Natives discovered this too
and used such pots as water filters ??

regards
jacky

[Mel Landers]

Hi everyone,

 

Dan writes:

I wonder if you could introduce
unfired clay bits into your container at the same time you were
heating the organic materials and wind up with a fired clay and
charcoal mix after the liquids were withdrawn?

 

You might as well use the heat to fire clay to use in the production of the dark earth soil.

 

Dan writes:

I like to think of a solar heated retort for all this, just to avoid
combustion.

Solar heat is a good option; especially here. You would need to concentrate solar radiation from a large area though, in order to get the heat needed. Solar assisted retorts are also possible; to bring up the heat so that you use less fuel. But, regardless of the source of heat, you need to still operate at the proper temperature and the results, as far as smoke production, etc., would be the same.

 

Dan writes:

there are still volatiles I suppose, which would have to
be drawn off and sequestered or they would escape into the atmosphere.

The smoke is captured. Yes, there are volitile molecules in the liquid smoke. But, there is far less release of green house gases than if you did not collect the smoke. No matter what, these gases will be released into the atmosphere at some point, even if it is through the eventual decomposition of the biomass. But, this is a very complicated set of topics.

 

Dan writes:

 It would fix the
carbon component as a slowly degradable solid.

Some of the charred material will be stable in the soil for thousands of years. Mature humus should remain stable for hundreds of years.

 

Dan writes:

Also, there is another scary issue, whether the retort needs to be as
stout as a pressure cooker because of expanding gases, or would
something more jerrybuilt suffice?

 

The retort is sealed on top only to force the smoke out of the bottom. This makes it easier to collect the smoke. There is no increase of pressure within the system and it can be made at low cost, on a small scale.

 

mel

Daniel Nagengast <nage...@earthlink.net> wrote:

[Mel Landers]

Hi again,

 

Due to professional considerations, Michael Ott has decided that he should not discuss the pyrolisis with the group. He is involved in the building of systems that require patented products. I believe some of what he would need to say deals with intelectual property that he is not at liberty to discuss. Sorry!

 

Jacky wrote:

were the shards from a flat fired clay or from a
clay pot ?

 The shards are most definitely from clay pots. Even fired pots are easily damaged. Also, pots used for disposal of human wastes can soon become ofensive to people accustomed to clean living. Over the years many pots wouold be eligible for total destruction for the good of the soil.

 

Most people are unaware of the extreme clenliness of Native American tribes before their decimation by diseases. They were quite susceptible to European diseases, partly because they had not been exposed to them and partly because of their weak immune response; the product of iving in very sanitary conditions. The conquistadores commented about these conditions and the armies of street sweepers, etc.

Jacky wrote:

In a clay pot salt accummulate because the water comes out by gravity

Although shards in the soil do not dry, the water still does flow through the fired clay that lies below its point of entry into the soil. I believe the water flows through by gravity, but, some mineral salts do not; whether there is drying or not. But, I may be wrong.

 

Jacky wrote:

I wonder if the Natives discovered this too
and used such pots as water filters ??

 

This refers to clay water filters.I have no idea if they did or not, but it sure does work well.  they filter out over 99% of the bacteria and other organisms that cause disease. I just installed six of these in a rural school here a few weeks ago. These are for filtering stored rain water.

 

mel

 

 

Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

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