Fw: Questions

[Bob Morriss]

Members and Guests of IOBB Conference.

I too have been reading the responses sent by Mel, Hans, Daniel, Arclein and Jacky.

I joined IOBB and this conference in order to learn better ways to improve our process.

At this time we have a few composting methods. One is for the creation of a "Base Compost/Humus" to blend with local soils and create a local "Top Soil where it is to be used.

Two, we create a "Base" material to be used as landfill cover.

Three, we make a Bio Organic Fertilizer, BOF. For this process we have more than one process.

1. Is an "In Vessel" system.

a. Is an inclosed chamber with air and moisture control.

b. Is a covered system with a floor that has a leachate drain and aeration injection system. It can have a roll on and off system or one

    done by hand. Usually economics decide which system is used.

c. Is covered but on hardened soil with a leachate runoff pond. It can have a roll on and off cover system or done by hand.

2. A standard composting system. Microbes create a crust and control odors. You measure temp and moisture and decide when to till it.   

    Tilling helps aerate and control interior heat.

3. I new process that is a totally enclosed system with nine chambers and produces a very high quality BOF.

 

NOTE: We can add our bugs to any composting process and create a high quality BOF then the compost that would have been created. Not every system needs to be a BOF process. Some want landfill cover and other want Top Soil.

 

To create a healthy and high microbial BOF we use a microbial cocktail, that we developed, to reduce the time it takes to convert the organics into a "Base" material. This "Base" material has a very high microbial population. The high microbial population helps create Humus and a Bio Organic Fertilizer that reduces and or replaces the use of or need of NPK. We have a low cost of production and it can effectively sell at in excess of $100 US per ton. Urea and NPK have a cost of between $200 and $600 US per ton. We have some testing evidence to support our claim of a larger crop, a healthier crop, a lower costing crop to produce and etc. In some cases we add "amendments" to assist a specific crop. We understand it is critical to repair damaged soils before you can expect it to produce a quality crop. Erosion will be controlled as the "healthy soil" will use water more efficiently, reducing the amount of water you need to produce a good crop.

 

Our process involves the collection of organic waste from MSW and directly and or from green waste sources. We grind the waste and windrow it. We add our microbes to eliminate pathogens and reduce the time it takes to breakdown the organics. We turn the windrow when the time is right and once it is converted we set it aside to "mature". Generally the time it takes is 4 to 7 weeks. There is another week or two for maturing. Simple but effective. If any of you have any other suggestions please feel free to comment or amend our process.

 

I like the idea of using Bio char to improve our end product. It seems to have a proven application and charcoal is available in most places.

I like the idea of raised mulch beds. It may not be applicable in all cases but is a very good idea.

 

At this time we have the following opportunities being discussed by our group and these various countries.

S. Africa, green waste (300,000 tons per year), wood production waste, food waste, sewage sludge, animal waste, sugar cane waste, grape waste and mo

Three other African locations. Green waste, market waste, food waste and animal waste.

One in S. America. Green waste, market waste, animal waste and crop waste.

Vietnam, rice hulls and tropical plant waste.

Italy, they too have rice waste, agriculture waste, food waste, sewage sludge and more.

Philippines, rice hull, brewery, pig, chicken and cattle waste.

India, wheat waste, tropical plant waste and more. They are treating rice hull waste as a valuable commodity and we are not getting this for our process.

UK, agriculture waste, market waste, food waste, sewage sludge and etc. We have a meeting, in LA, with a group from England. They want to explore our process and possibly apply it in the UK.

 

My question to the IOBB group is:

How can we improve on this process?

What evidence do you have to support your claims and how would we best incorporate them into our process?

Are you willing to do a serious demo, with a local University involved, to monitor the process and results?

Do you know anyone interested in working with us to demonstrate these various processes?

 

Please give me your comments and suggestions.

 

Bob Morriss

www.esgsolutionsgroup.com

951 325 8200 office

951 3140903 cell

 

 

[Daniel Nagengast]

Bob,

I am on an advisory committee for a Kansas State University project
that is looking at Integrated Organic Practices (IOP) in high tunnels.
The group is very interested in maintaining soil quality, use of
organic fertilizers, regional sources of soil fertility, etc. This
would fit well into that project. There are on-station replicated
trials, and on-farm demonstrations and trials with 5 farmers.

I am also the Director of a Not-for-profit NGO, the Kansas Rural
Center. We organize projects and serve as a pass-through for grants
and contracts. www.kansasruralcenter.org

I would be interested in talking with you about undertaking trials and
demonstrations in the midwestern U.S. My numbers are found below.
Where are you located?

Cheers,

Dan Nagengast

On Aug 30, 2007, at 4:48 PM, Bob Morriss wrote:
> My question to the IOBB group is:
> How can we improve on this process?
> What evidence do you have to support your claims and how would we best
> incorporate them into our process?
> Are you willing to do a serious demo, with a local University
> involved, to monitor the process and results?
> Do you know anyone interested in working with us to demonstrate these
> various processes?
>
> Please give me your comments and suggestions.
>
> Bob Morriss
> www.esgsolutionsgroup.com
> 951 325 8200 office
> 951 3140903 cell
>
>
>
> >
>

Dan Nagengast
785-748-0959
785-748-0609 fax
nage...@earthlink.net
www.kansasruralcenter.org

[Mel Landers]

Hi all,

 

Bob aked:

Are you willing to do a serious demo, with a local University involved, to monitor the process and results?

Do you know anyone interested in working with us to demonstrate these?

 

It sounds like Dan and Bob may be doing some trials together. I hope you also have the opportunity to try out what I have explained here. It needs to be developed as a means of improving soils throughout the world.

 

Bob Asked:

how would we best incorporate them (These new methods) into our process?

How can we improve on this process?

What evidence do you have to support your claims?

 
I do not know how best to incorporate what I have presented here into what you are doing. It appears that you are doing several processes which will release a maximum amount of nutrients in a short period of time. You are involved in fast decomposition processes. That is worlds apart from what I am talking about, which takes months to accomplish. Although you mention that your materials have humus, I would imagine you are refering to more unstable substances (which are quite commonly referred to in this way, by many) which provide a great amount of energy to plants quickly. The document " Humus in Tropicl Soils¨explains the difference.

 

What I would suggest is that you try doing a slow decomposition as well and mix the two for a production comparison over a period of several years. There should be a single application on each plot and the soil should remain undisturbed, under mulch except for what is needed to set the seeds. I believe you would notce prolonged high level production in the plots with the mixture and a decline in the contol beds.

 

I believe the best improvement on this process would be to thoroughly mix the ingredients before applying them to the soil. These should be allowed to ferment until it is apparent that there is acedic acid (vinegar) production. Then it can be covered with soil. The thorough mixing should insure even decomposition and the greatest production of humus.

 

As for proof, I am hoping that you all will give the proof in your trials. This stuff has not been made for 500 years! There is plenty of proof in Brazil that the dark earth soils are valuable. The question is whether or not this process will produce the same thing. It is very doubtful that those suggesting simply the addition of charcoal to the soil will be successful. So far they have been adding commercial fertilizer to provide the nutrients.

 

But, there is a high probability that this method, with some tweeking, will do the job. You have an opportunity to get in at the beginning in repeating one of the most important practices in agricultural history. Continue to ask questions and seek answers, mainly through trials. Thhis is surely the way it was done thousands of years ago when it was first produced.

 

I am very pleased with the quality of questions during this seminar. It has made me think of things I had not questioned for years. I believe that this group holds a lot of promise for duplicating the dark earth soils. I hope everyone will stay in touch and I can give you all the results of our crop comparison trials from the bed I built last year.

 

I know this would be easier if I were working at some university and had been able to make dozens of these beds testing a number of variables, instead of a poor ag missionary with few resources and few hours available to accomplish the work. But, then, I would not have made contact with the people who have made the important contributions to my understanding of these processes. I would have been to busy to do all that networking.

 

I would have never been in contact with Jacky. His work is of so much value to us all. And than, I would not have been in contact with any of you. I would not have considered the importance of charring maiz roots, or of finding biomass in the Sahel, etc. This is how I have always worked and it has so far yielded some great results.

 

If I had not let things happen the way they have, I would not have learned how Native Americans farmed. What a pitty that would be. I will hopefully facilitate the transformation of Central American agriculture soon. through what God has brought my way. I am thankful for that.

 

We should not be afraid to step out into the unknown. Books are great. They can give us alot of understanding. But, the things we most urgently need to know in this rapidly changing environment, have not been written into books yet. That is because we have not yet discovered them. Someone needs to do the discovering before others will be able to do the tweeking.

 

mel

Daniel Nagengast <nage...@earthlink.net> wrote:

---

Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[mikethe...@aol.com]

Bob,


I have been following the discussion. Responses in purple.....

 

My question to the IOBB group is:

How can we improve on this process?

You may want to consider the uses of biomass ash and various rock dusts as mineral sources in your composting process. Use judiciously the minerals can be either directly chelated or incorporated into the microbial biomass.

I have attached a lab report on some activated compost I made recently using rock dusts along with other ingredients.

Also in regard to biochar I have fed wood charcoal to worms without any harm to the worms. One benefit I have seen in composting with biochar is that the material screens much better when it is mature/finished.

Also you want to consider using a specific size fraction of the biochar as a delivery vehicle for benefical soil microbial additive. Some of this would occur naturally if you compost with biochar.

Do you know anyone interested in working with us to demonstrate these various processes?

If you think I can be of assistance then contact me at :  mikethe...@aol.com

 

Please give me your comments and suggestions.

 

Bob Morriss

www.esgsolutionsgroup.com

951 325 8200 office

951 3140903 cell

 

 

---

Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!

[Stephen Joseph]

All

 

I have been following the discussions with much interest. I have been involved in making charcoal and biochar since 1975 (built my first kiln in Vanuatu). I worked on Charcoal stoves and charcoal making in Kenya and Ethiopia in the 80's and 90's.

 

I enclose some interesting papers for you to look at and a photo of a root of a plant that was taken from my raised beds that consist of soil, chicken manure char and chicken manure compost.  The Japanese work and that of UC show that charcoal provides are great medium for the growth of micro-organisms and adsorption of Dissolved organic matter.

 

From the information that we have to date it appears that some of the dissolved organic matter from compost enters the pores of the char, is incorporated into the char so that it will not be readily lost, and that the surface of the char contains organic compounds that are food for micro-organisms especially Fungi.  It is probable that there is a complex interaction between the root exudates, the organic and inorganic compounds in the pores on the surfaces of the char, the micro-organisms that are growing on the char and  the root hairs. The root hairs  grow into the larger pores of the char (see photo)

 

At the University of New South Wales we are undertaking fundamental studies of the surfaces of char and their interaction in soils. I am also editing a major work with Johannes Lehmann on the Science and Technology of Biochar which will be published next year as part of the International Biochar Initiative.

 

If you go to the International Agrichar Conference web site you will see a paper I presented with details of what a first class biochar looks like.  There are plenty of other interesting papers.

 

Regards

Stephen Joseph
 

[Hanns-Andre Pitot]

Hi Mel

if I remember correctly, you've pasted this publication "Humus in
tropical soils" in one of your messages, right (to be sure I've read
all of your info)?

You may wish to have a look at the following link, where I describe a
composting technique that we've used with great success in Delhi. The
resulting compost was of excellent quality:

http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ecocity03/papers/pitot/index.html

It's true that decomposition is pretty fast under tropical conditions,
but anaerobic conditions are, in my vew, simply not an alternative.
And keep in mind, that plant growth is much faster, too, so more
nutrients are actually required at higher temperatures.

Hanns-Andre

On Aug 31, 3:54 am, Mel Landers <agri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Bob aked:
> Are you willing to do a serious demo, with a local University involved, to monitor the process and results?
> Do you know anyone interested in working with us to demonstrate these?
>
> It sounds like Dan and Bob may be doing some trials together. I hope you also have the opportunity to try out what I have explained here. It needs to be developed as a means of improving soils throughout the world.
>
> Bob Asked:
> how would we best incorporate them (These new methods) into our process?
> How can we improve on this process?
> What evidence do you have to support your claims?
>
> I do not know how best to incorporate what I have presented here into what you are doing. It appears that you are doing several processes which will release a maximum amount of nutrients in a short period of time. You are involved in fast decomposition processes. That is worlds apart from what I am talking about, which takes months to accomplish. Although you mention that your materials have humus, I would imagine you are refering to more unstable substances (which are quite commonly referred to in this way, by many) which provide a great amount of energy to plants quickly. The document " Humus in Tropicl Soils¨explains the difference.
>
> What I would suggest is that you try doing a slow decomposition as well and mix the two for a production comparison over a period of several years. There should be a single application on each plot and the soil should remain undisturbed, under mulch except for what is needed to set the seeds. I believe you would notce prolonged high level production in the plots with the mixture and a decline in the contol beds.
>
> I believe the best improvement on this process would be to thoroughly mix the ingredients before applying them to the soil. These should be allowed to ferment until it is apparent that there is acedic acid (vinegar) production. Then it can be covered with soil. The thorough mixing should insure even decomposition and the greatest production of humus.
>
> As for proof, I am hoping that you all will give the proof in your trials. This stuff has not been made for 500 years! There is plenty of proof in Brazil that the dark earth soils are valuable. The question is whether or not this process will produce the same thing. It is very doubtful that those suggesting simply the addition of charcoal to the soil will be successful. So far they have been adding commercial fertilizer to provide the nutrients.
>
> But, there is a high probability that this method, with some tweeking, will do the job. You have an opportunity to get in at the beginning in repeating one of the most important practices in agricultural history. Continue to ask questions and seek answers, mainly through trials. Thhis is surely the way it was done thousands of years ago when it was first produced.
>
> I am very pleased with the quality of questions during this seminar. It has made me think of things I had not questioned for years. I believe that this group holds a lot of promise for duplicating the dark earth soils. I hope everyone will stay in touch and I can give you all the results of our crop comparison trials from the bed I built last year.
>
> I know this would be easier if I were working at some university and had been able to make dozens of these beds testing a number of variables, instead of a poor ag missionary with few resources and few hours available to accomplish the work. But, then, I would not have made contact with the people who have made the important contributions to my understanding of these processes. I would have been to busy to do all that networking.
>
> I would have never been in contact with Jacky. His work is of so much value to us all. And than, I would not have been in contact with any of you. I would not have considered the importance of charring maiz roots, or of finding biomass in the Sahel, etc. This is how I have always worked and it has so far yielded some great results.
>
> If I had not let things happen the way they have, I would not have learned how Native Americans farmed. What a pitty that would be. I will hopefully facilitate the transformation of Central American agriculture soon. through what God has brought my way. I am thankful for that.
>
> We should not be afraid to step out into the unknown. Books are great. They can give us alot of understanding. But, the things we most urgently need to know in this rapidly changing environment, have not been written into books yet. That is because we have not yet discovered them. Someone needs to do the discovering before others will be able to do the tweeking.
>
> mel
>

> nageng...@earthlink.netwww.kansasruralcenter.org
>
> ---------------------------------