Re: Technologies

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/6/2007 9:44:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, paul.o...@esrint.com writes:

there is one more device that I discovered
that really closes the loop on this biomass problem. I know this technology
will work, but I dare not bring it up here, for surely someone will object
that it does not relate to Tallow trees.

Oh go ahead Paul, toss it out here and lets get a look at it.

 

Neal

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[Cascone, Ronald]

Paul: If we are to talk about gasification in the context of utilization of (CTT) biomass for synfuel production through catalytic conversion of syngas, we should realize that there are hundreds of different types of biomass gasifiers operating around the world (thousands of units), even in remote villages in India, but that essentially all of these feed combustors or simple heat engines.

 

To be useful in the long term for catalytic processing, we need much higher level of cleaning the syngas of soot, mineral ash (PM10 and below), and vaporized trace elements (halogens, COS, ammonia, metal hydrides, etc.).   This is very difficult, especially with biomass, which can have as variable a composition as coal. Also, for many of the technologies, such as downflow gasification, the ash quality is problematic because it tends not to slag well.

 

Ron

 

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[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/6/2007 10:11:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, rcas...@nexant.com writes:

To be useful in the long term for catalytic processing, we need much higher level of cleaning the syngas

Using the biomass from CTT, or any other source, could use the filtration systems we saw at Purdue Univ some time ago. I believe the technology belongs to Dr. Robert Stwalley, a consulting engineer. Essentially it was a series of filters including a couple of oil baths.  I wouldn't think it is patented but I don't know.

 

Do you have other ideas Ron?

 

Neal Van Milligen

 

[Paul Olivier]

Ron,

 

If we gasify Tallow tree biomass and then take the syn gas and burn it, then we have accomplished very little. It would be simpler to take the biomass and combust it and skip the gasification step.

 

Cleaning syn gas is not difficult. A bag-house and packed tower will render the gas quite clean. But we must have the means to transform hydrogen into a product that can be easily stored, and this product must have a value high enough to justify this additional step. Moreover the technology to transform and store hydrogen must be well proven and entirely off-the-shelf. I refer here to a technology that has been around for many decades.

 

But the biggest challenge that we face does not lie in any of the above. It relates instead to the storage of raw biomass. However, this is not an impossible task. Gary B. or Neal could figure this one out in a day or two.

 

Thanks.

Paul

 

Paul A. Olivier

ESR International LLC

27c Pham Hong Thai, Ward 10

Dalat City

Lam Dong Province

Vietnam

 

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)

Texas telephone: 1-214-306-8746 (rings Vietnam)

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Old Website: http://www.esrla.com/

Skype address: Xpolivier

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From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cascone, Ronald
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 11:09 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Technologies

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/6/2007 6:28:26 P.M. Central Standard Time, paul.o...@esrint.com writes:

But the biggest challenge that we face does not lie in any of the above. It relates instead to the storage of raw biomass. However, this is not an impossible task.

I agree Paul, when people ask me about storing energy I tell them to store the biomass. It is the most convenient and economical way to store energy.

 

Neal

[Hanns-Andre Pitot]

I have been wondering whether storage could be in the form of compost
heaps (windrows) that are allowed to 'run dry'. They would have to be
protected from the rain in one way or another, for example using
textile cover (Goretex).

What would be your oppinion about this approach?

Hanns-Andre

On 7 Mar, 04:15, C...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/6/2007 6:28:26 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>

> paul.oliv...@esrint.com writes:
>
> But the biggest challenge that we face does not lie in any of the above. It
> relates instead to the storage of raw biomass. However, this is not an
> impossible task.
>
> I agree Paul, when people ask me about storing energy I tell them to store
> the biomass. It is the most convenient and economical way to store energy.
>
> Neal

> <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
> email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL athttp://www.aol.com.

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/7/2007 3:48:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, hap...@yahoo.com writes:

I have been wondering whether storage could be in the form of compost
heaps (windrows) that are allowed to 'run dry'.  They would have to be
protected from the rain in one way or another, for example using
textile cover (Goretex).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is my opinion that we would want to reduce the degradation of the biomass to the extend practical and economical. But we have stored large quantities of woody biomass exposed outdoors for months with little or no degradation.  If the biomass has already been chipped or ground up it will degrade more quickly than the original material covered in bark but, even in this case, it will sustain a good burn even after long periods of exposure.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary, as they say. I suppose some parts of the world may find the biomass degrading more quickly due to humidity, temperature, rain, etc.

 

Neal

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[Cascone, Ronald]

Neal et al: Again, CTT, like other trees and shrubs, has more leeway in terms of harvesting than do grains and other field crops (except for, e.g., cassava, which can be “stored” in place). With most woody biomass, for fermentation, one would need to store it without major degradation, and avoid infection with microbes that could generate phyto-toxins that might interfere with cellulose hydrolysis and/or fermentation.  However, for gasification, and especially if one is trying achieve economy of scale and feed  a large facility, the preferred strategy would be to convert the biomass immediately close to the field using various types of pyrolysis systems (possibly portable, such a skid-mounted), also known as “torrefaction”.  The resulting char and liquids could be stored more compactly and long-term, and moved more economically to such a central facility.

 

Ron

 

 

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From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CA...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:46 AM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Technologies

 

In a message dated 3/7/2007 3:48:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, hap...@yahoo.com writes:

[Paul Olivier]

Neal,

 

Farmers store huge quantities of biomass in the form of bales. Can Tallow tree biomass not be baled and stored under a roof? We may have to chip the biomass to get it to bale properly. Bales could be stacked with spacers that would allow air to pass between the bales so that over a period of a few months they could dry out. It does not make sense to gasify biomass of a high moisture content. Baling also reduces the amount of space required to store the biomass, and if the bales are well ventilated they should not catch on fire.

 

Thanks.

Paul

 

Paul A. Olivier

ESR International LLC

From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CA...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:46 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Technologies

 

In a message dated 3/7/2007 3:48:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, hap...@yahoo.com writes:

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/7/2007 9:20:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, rcas...@nexant.com writes:

 However, for gasification, and especially if one is trying achieve economy of scale and feed  a large facility, the preferred strategy would be to convert the biomass immediately close to the field using various types of pyrolysis systems (possibly portable, such a skid-mounted), also known as “torrefaction”.  The resulting char and liquids could be stored more compactly and long-term, and moved more economically to such a central facility.

Ron, lets explore this option further.  I am used to dealing with seasonal supplies of biomass that have to be stored as a buffer to provide a continuous flow for processing.  At our site in southern Indiana we have about 500,000 tons of sawdust on the ground now.

 

I would rather further process the biomass and store the processed material if it is a more convenient way to establish an energy inventory.

 

Neal Van Milligen

Kentucky Enrichment Inc

ca...@aol.com

[Cascone, Ronald]

Paul: Neal and I agree. Surely, many industrial operations deal with raw biomass – in the pulp & paper industry, etc. – but at a price.  

 

The problem with much biomass, especially in the context of fermentation, is the word “fungible”, an important concept in industry – fungible good/non-fungible (i.e., special, different, unique, poorly-defined, non-standardized, variable) bad. For a fine wine, terroir is good, for a commodity, it’s bad. As any farmer knows, hay is variable, and funky. They live with it, but don’t like it. We can’t ferment char, but for gasification it is ideal, partly because it is more fungible – switchgrass and willow char will not differ as much as the raw substrates do.

 

Ron

 

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From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CA...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:31 AM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Technologies

 

In a message dated 3/7/2007 9:20:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, rcas...@nexant.com writes:

 However, for gasification, and especially if one is trying achieve economy of scale and feed  a large facility, the preferred strategy would be to convert the biomass immediately close to the field using various types of pyrolysis systems (possibly portable, such a skid-mounted), also known as torrefaction.  The resulting char and liquids could be stored more compactly and long-term, and moved more economically to such a central facility.