Re: Alternative energy and rural development

[CA...@aol.com]

Dr. Orskov, you may be just the one to point us in the right direction for developing rural power sources, rural economic development and capitalization of rural assets such as might be found with the CTT.

 

You said, "In our experienced however if you wish the help of the target group identified and have a solution to constraint no 1. I they respond much more rapidly to intervention than a well educated western society. There are no unique technologies."

 

Would you mind expanding on that thought?  If we are to bring opportunities to rural areas worldwide we might have to understand the intervention theory you mention.

 

Regards,

 

Neal Van Milligen

Kentucky Enrichment Inc

www.kentuckyenrichment.com

ca...@aol.com

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 2/28/2007 10:47:47 A.M. Central Standard Time, b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

  I like the philosophy mentioned  that we have plenty of energy in the
sun to provide for energy we need it is  a question  of finding  the
cheapest and most sustainable option . Gassification of wasted
cellulosic biomass is certainly one. When I am in a hot dessert there is
so much wasted sunenergy which if captured would compete with nothing.
Would it ever be an option to set up  kind of sunpowerstations in hot
desserts to capture energy  for electricity.  sorry for such stupid
question
Bob Orskov

 

---

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[Jacky Foo]

On 28/02/07, CA...@aol.com <CA...@aol.com> wrote:
> Dr. Orskov, you may be just the one to point us in the right direction for
> developing rural power sources, rural economic development and
> capitalization
> of rural assets such as might be found with the CTT.

for many developing countries and for an immediate renewable source of
fuel with petrol, I would put my money on vegetable oil such as peanut
or sunflower oil. Press cake has a value as a local animal feed.
Manure can return to the fields . If biogas technology is available,
you have a cooking fuel and the digested effluent can return to the
fields. The technology for local oil extraction is available.

This is a simple system which rural farmers and households can manage.

regards
jacky

[Bob Orskov]

Thanks Niel Van Milligan . There is as I said no one solution for
rural development but let us for instance assume that we had together
with a poor rural comunity identified that power or el was the most
important bottle neck then we need to find a suitable solution one
solution maybe for the comunity to buy a small gassifier unit where
underused cellulosic residues could be converted to el or power. Such
units I have seen at cellagrid in Cambodia Phnom Phen and I believe
came from India. If this is done it also means that the ash can be used
as the fields are nearby.
It is of course also possibel to generate biogas .Small units as we see
in Vietnam where there are many thousands.on small farms The biogas is
produced from animal and human excreta. the biogas tube is about 10m
long and 1 m wide and cost about 50$ this provide gas for the household
and the biogas slurry can if there is water be led into fertilize fish
ponds. This is just one example there is not one unique solution or if
there is I do not know!! Bob

Prof E R Orskov
IFRU
Macaulay Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH

Tel 44 (0)1224 498243
Fax 44 (0)1224 243209
Email b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk
bobo...@eudoramail.com
bobo...@hotmail.com
http://www.macaulay.ac.uk/IFRU
>>> <CA...@aol.com> 02/28/07 5:04 PM >>>

Dr. Orskov, you may be just the one to point us in the right direction
for
developing rural power sources, rural economic development and
capitalization
of rural assets such as might be found with the CTT.

You said, "In our experienced however if you wish the help of the target

group identified and have a solution to constraint no 1. I they respond
much
more rapidly to intervention than a well educated western society. There
are no
unique technologies."

Would you mind expanding on that thought? If we are to bring
opportunities
to rural areas worldwide we might have to understand the intervention
theory
you mention.

Regards,

Neal Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc

_www.kentuckyenrichment.com_ (http://www.kentuckyenrichment.com)
_c...@aol.com_ (mailto:ca...@aol.com)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 2/28/2007 10:47:47 A.M. Central Standard Time,
b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

I like the philosophy mentioned that we have plenty of energy in the
sun to provide for energy we need it is a question of finding the
cheapest and most sustainable option . Gassification of wasted
cellulosic biomass is certainly one. When I am in a hot dessert there
is
so much wasted sunenergy which if captured would compete with nothing.
Would it ever be an option to set up kind of sunpowerstations in hot
desserts to capture energy for electricity. sorry for such stupid
question
Bob Orskov

<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers

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email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at

http://www.aol.com.

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[Cascone, Ronald]

We are facing critical problems of global warming. With all due respect
to poor rural farmers, they are not the source of the problems, nor are
people who live in deserts. I am interested in solutions that are
world-changing. I would like to see solutions that work for people that
live in Los Angeles, New York, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, London, Lagos,
Cairo, Mumbai, Jakarta, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Tokyo, Manila,
etc., not the outback.

Ron

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/28/2007 10:31:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, rcas...@nexant.com writes:

We are facing critical problems of global warming. With all due respect
to poor rural farmers, they are not the source of the problems, nor are
people who live in deserts. I am interested in solutions that are
world-changing. I would like to see solutions that work for people that
live in Los Angeles, New York, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, London, Lagos,
Cairo, Mumbai, Jakarta, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Tokyo, Manila,
etc., not the outback.

Ron, my people were the engineering supervisors on a project in Indiana over the past few years. We helped a local high school shop teacher put together a super high mileage car with his classes.  We used carbon fiber, composite plastics and high tech molding and computer guided cutting all of which we provided.  We provided the expertise to select the components and design and assemble the car. 

 

The state wide competition rules required us to use a standard 3hp Briggs and Straton gasoline lawn mower engine, to travel at least 7 miles on an oval track at least 50 mph with other demo vehicles, start, stop, and carry a 150 lb driver.

 

Our first year we tripled the mileage of our nearest competitor. We achieved 1500 mpg.  The next year, 2005, we did 2440 mpg.  Our vehicle cost $40,000 and was street legal.  I could travel from Chicago to Memphis on a cup of gasoline, more or less.  It was also very fast off the line beating our V8 escort vehicle in a 0-60 mph test run.  Of course the drag race was not part of the mileage competition.

 

We estimate that by adding more creature comforts, using a Honda 8 hp elect start motor, and a few other typical refinements we could make an urban commuter car for about $20,000 retail.This would result from using composites in place of the carbon fiber.  It would likely have a reduced mileage though down to about 400 mpg.  A typical city driver would probably find he was actually getting something like 200 mpg, and less in traffic.

 

This is not a theoretical car, we have built and run two in competition not counting the numerous test models we built over the last 3-4 years.

 

I don't know if this be world changing but it wouldn't hurt.

 

Neal Van Milligen

Kentucky Enrichment Inc

ca...@aol.com

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[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/28/2007 10:31:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, rcas...@nexant.com writes:

We are facing critical problems of global warming. With all due respect
to poor rural farmers, they are not the source of the problems, nor are
people who live in deserts. I am interested in solutions that are
world-changing. I would like to see solutions that work for people that
live in Los Angeles, New York, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, London, Lagos,
Cairo, Mumbai, Jakarta, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Tokyo, Manila,
etc., not the outback.

Ron, another example.

 

We are working with several university researchers on telecommuting and telemedicine projects.  We have available through one of the universities a technology which involves virtual reality to a Nth degree.  We can give a remote operator the sensation that he is actually at a site thousands of miles away involved in almost any task you can imagine. 

 

We can put factory workers or farmers on the job in real time when their physical being is really in an air conditioned and heated room of their own homes, if they choose.  We can plow fields, weld a new component, string power lines, drive trucks, fly planes and do surgery remotely. 

 

We can give the operator the exact sight he would experience if he were present at a remote job.  We can give him the sense of motion, tactile senses and sound as though he were there. We can't do smell very well yet.

 

Using this technology there would be little reason for most workers to join in the morning commute madness across Los Angeles, Mexico City, or any other place. They could don the work gear of the virtual reality system at home, or a near by center, and perform their usual tasks remotely.  All that is necessary for the site is that it have a high speed internet connection or other high speed communication.

 

We have flown real spy planes virtually using this technology and then ordered the pilot to crash into the ground. His sense of flight was so real that he could not force himself to purposely crash his plane. But he could have been a lineman stringing wire across Saigon while being in New Jersey with this system.

 

Commutes go to nearly nothing, travel is dramatically curtailed for most reasons, including vacations.  Even space travel would be accomplished by robotics rather than putting humans on the space station or on the moon, Mars, or wherever.   And we have not even mentioned what it could do for armies.

 

I am sympathetic to what you said earlier about improved battery technology. We are required to have an umbilical cord to a power pack for our robotics or be limited by their battery packs.  We are working on it though.

 

Neal Van Milligen

Kentucky Enrichment Inc

ca...@aol.com          

[CA...@aol.com]

But in a more down to earth project, I think our small gasifier can change things for millions of people.  We can take one ton of biomass per day and produce about 50 kw/hr of electricity and about 2,000 gallons of distilled water.  There will even be some surplus heat beyond the water distillation available for other uses.

 

We have used fire wood, sawdust (green and dry) rice hulls, cow manure, chicken manure and some other things.  I am confident we can safely gasify plastics.  We will do a test on human manure (biosolids) soon.

 

We have used bales of hay, bales of newspapers, stacks of cardboard, piles of magazines, and other junk.

 

We can produce a high level of hydrogen when using damp poultry manure as fuel. I am of the opinion that we are steam cracking the ammonia to hydrogen but I don't know.  (My degree is in accounting not engineering.)

 

We don't have to make electricity. We can provide cooking gas for homes or commercial applications.

 

I think we can make it substantially smaller than a one ton a day unit, of course it doesn't have to be operated 24 hours a day.  We can make it somewhat larger than one ton a day but only about 3 tons without changing the design of everything.

 

One of our gasifiers of a slightly different design was placed into the back of a Chevrolet pickup truck and driven from Alabama to Virginia to California and back to Alabama on $30 in gasoline.  The driver filled up with wood he gathered along the road side when he needed fuel. In the desert southwest he bought pine lumber from a building supply store.  He estimated that he drove almost 3 miles on a 2X4.

 

Neal Van Milligen

Kentucky Enrichment Inc

ca...@aol.com

[Jacky Foo]

On 01/03/07, CA...@aol.com <CA...@aol.com> wrote:
> ...our small gasifier ...|||.... We can take one ton of biomass per day and

> produce about 50 kw/hr of electricity and about 2,000 gallons of distilled
> water. There will even be some surplus heat beyond the water distillation
> available for other uses.
> We have used fire wood, sawdust (green and dry) rice hulls, cow manure,
> chicken manure and some other things. I am confident we can safely gasify
> plastics. We will do a test on human manure (biosolids) soon.

> ........... used bales of hay, bales of newspapers, stacks of cardboard, piles

> of magazines, and other junk.

how can find funding to test this technology to a site , e.g. in Cambodia ?

Just like a CCT system wold need, pruned biomass and dry combustible
garbage are available. The product...2,000 gallons of distilled water
from 1 ton biomass feed per day could to make a small business viable.

I am in contact with a US Charitable NGO who can submit such a
proposal. You may wish to contact Anna G (www.seardf.org) . The
process is to identify a funding agency, write a letter of inquiry and
then the full proposal if there is interest from the agency.

regards
jacky
--
+++++
6-9 July 2008. 1st Intl Conf on Technologies and Strategic Management
of Sustainable Biosystems
http://www.etc.murdoch.edu.au/pages/conf1.html
If you wish to attend this conference, register by sending a blank email to:
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[Jacky Foo]

----forwarded message-----
From: Reg Preston <trpr...@mekarn.org> 01 March 2007 13:31
To: Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com>

Jacky

Take care!!

If it was so easy there would be lots of people using their system.

If it is the same people gasifying turkey offals in Kentucky, they
have been closed down several times for bad odours and pollution.

He speaks of 1 tonne per day feedstock. That is a lot of biomass!!

It would need at least 30 ha of land to produce it. Not exactly rural
development. It is also nonsense to gasify manure; especially human
excreta.

We have locally made small scale gasifier (10KW) in Cambodia. We are
constructing similar one in our farm in Colombia to use bagasse from
small scale sugar cane processed for pig feed (the juice).

We need funding. Ideas appreciated.

Warm regards
Reg

--
T R Preston
Senior Editor, Livestock Research for Rural Development
Readers and contributers to LRRD are requested to join the LRRD-
Announce List.
http://lists.lrrd.net/mailman/listinfo/lrrd-announce
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Celular: 315-3536935
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http://www.mekarn.org (The web site of the Sida/SAREC Regional Network
for livestock training and research in the Lower Mekong basin)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

> +++++
> 6-9 July 2008. 1st Intl Conf on Technologies and Strategic Management
> of Sustainable Biosystems
>http://www.etc.murdoch.edu.au/pages/conf1.html

> Join the forum if you wish to attend this conference,

[Cascone, Ronald]

Neal: Wow! Very impressive. Sounds as if this would be world changing. Have you contacted the automotive majors? The DOE?  Has there been press coverage? A formal report? I may want to cite this in one or more reports we are doing.

 

Ron

 

---

From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CA...@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:36 AM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com

[CA...@aol.com]

Ah yes, if it were a good idea somebody would already be doing it.

 

We are not the folks in Missouri cracking turkey offal.  We have called them a couple of times to offer help with their odor problems but they have declined it.

 

Our gasifier is currently producing 10kw of electrical power and all the hot water for a typical one family home in south Texas.  For this it uses about 14kg of dry biomass per hour.  And we did not have any outside funding for it.

 

We are considering offering the plans for sale to NGOs and others who would want to produce the unit rather than purchase the hardware and have it shipped.

 

What is the problem with gasifying manure?  It produces energy immediately whereas anaerobic digestion requires time, temperature, high capital costs (in large applications) and new skills.

 

Neal

From: Reg Preston <trpr...@mekarn.org>     01 March 2007 13:31
To: Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com>

Jacky

Take care!!

If it was so easy there would be lots of people using their system.

If it is the same people gasifying turkey offals in Kentucky, they
have been closed down several times for bad odours and  pollution.

He speaks of 1 tonne per day feedstock. That is a lot of biomass!!

It would need at least 30 ha of land to produce it. Not exactly rural
development. It is also nonsense to gasify manure; especially human
excreta.

We have locally made small scale gasifier (10KW) in Cambodia. We are
constructing similar one in our farm in Colombia to use bagasse from
small scale sugar cane processed for pig feed (the juice).

We need funding.  Ideas appreciated.

Warm regards
Reg

[Jacky Foo]

On 01/03/07, CA...@aol.com <CA...@aol.com> wrote:

What is the problem with gasifying manure?  It produces energy immediately whereas anaerobic digestion requires time, temperature, high capital costs (in large applications) and new skills.

To Neal:
when you gasify manure, does fresh manure needs to be in a drier state first or can you put in fresh raw manure ? How much manure (from how many animals are you running your system ?)

I have seen Preston's gasifier setup in Cambodia.

A note on biogas:
Preston's biogas digester system investment (small scale) probably cost (guess-timate) about 50 US$ for production of 1 m3 biogas per day.
PLEASE CORRECT ME IF THIS FIGURE OF VERY OFF 

Tp Preston
Q: for CelAgrid, if your gasifier is to solely run with biogas, how much (average) gas do you need per day ? 

regards
jacky

[Reg Preston]

More or less OK Jacky. About USD 50 for 1 m3 biogas/day. But we don't
use biogas in the gasifier!!! We mix biogas and producer (wood) gas in
the engine; equally we cook with mixtures of the two gases.

The problem with gasifying manure is you have to dry it and you lose all
the nitrogen. We need fertilizer to produce high yields of biomass. To
burn fertilizer is not very sensible.

Reg

--
T R Preston
Senior Editor, Livestock Research for Rural Development

Readers and contributers to LRRD are requested to join the LRRD-Announce List.

[Bob Orskov]

Thanks Reg It would not generally be a good idea to use manure for gassification much better biogas where you can then further exploit the biogas slurry as you do in Vietnam fertilizing fishponds and then use the water for irrigation after or use directly as fertilizer.
Thank you also for the information on the energy balance of ethanol production from corn which has been well decribed by Patzek. The results are as I suspected but why are they doing it when the energy balance is negative it must be based on some strange economies.! Bob
>>> Reg Preston <trpr...@mekarn.org> 01/03/07 17:06 >>>

Reg

Prof E R Orskov

IFRU
Macaulay Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH

Tel 44 (0)1224 498243
Fax 44 (0)1224 243209
Email b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk
bobo...@eudoramail.com
bobo...@hotmail.com
http://www.macaulay.ac.uk/IFRU

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/1/2007 10:01:48 A.M. Central Standard Time, jack...@gmail.com writes:

To Neal:
when you gasify manure, does fresh manure needs to be in a drier state first or can you put in fresh raw manure ? How much manure (from how many animals are you running your system ?)

Jacky, we use pretty fresh manure. The chicken litter is right from the poultry house at about 27% mc. The dairy manure is off a separator and allowed to stand a day or so. It is about 40% mc when we put it in the gasifier.  Our upgraded system will use waste heat from the unit to blow hot air into the fuel bunker to dry down the incoming manure.

 

This is technology out of a book. We didn't invent this.  We just put it to work.

 

Neal

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/1/2007 11:09:19 A.M. Central Standard Time, trpr...@mekarn.org writes:

The problem with gasifying manure is you have to dry it and you lose all
the nitrogen. We need fertilizer to produce high yields of biomass. To
burn fertilizer is not very sensible.

You are correct, manure has to be dried but there is waste heat from a gasifier and there is windrow drying.  Several options depending on where you are.

 

I agree that the N is lost and that is a shame but it is a cost benefit issue.  Which is more important?  Plus, if there are other sources of biomass the options expand. We don't recommend that manure be used to the detriment of the farmer or the soil. There are plenty of situations where the manure is a burden though.

 

Neal

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/1/2007 11:33:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

Thank you also for the information on the energy balance of ethanol production from corn which has been well decribed by   Patzek. The results are as  I suspected but why are they doing it when the energy balance is negative  it must be based on some strange economies.!  Bob

Bob, don't be swayed by the Cornell and UC Davis energy balance of ethanol. I doubt that the authors even believe their own reports any more. They were so biased.

 

If we believed what they had to say we would be considering the cost of the production of the clothes you wear each day in the cost of your work product. Then there is the environmental impact of cutting the trees for your home and office.  In their mind nothing appears to be sustainable.  Yet the world continues to turn and we continue to advance.

 

Neal

[Cascone, Ronald]

Patzek and his collaborator in mischief, Pimental, neither of whom have the professional competence to address these issues, and both of whom have been discredited by every other researcher on the subject of ethanol energy balance in the world, use old and bad data, laughable model assumptions, and are easily disproved by the economic facts on the ground. BIOETHANOL MADE FROM CORN IN THE US IS STRONGLY ENERGY-POSITIVE (MAKES MUCH MORE NON-GREENHOUSE GAS-GENERATING FUEL THAN IT COULD EVER CONSUME). Unfortunately, they have been able to seduce the press and leap at every opportunity to be interviewed by naïve reporters. There are no strange economics - these two make a nice living telling these lies over and over.

As for nitrogen in manure - do the numbers. On a dry basis, the data shows that both fresh cow and hen manure contain about 4% N. Because of the types of N compounds contained, this degrades about 25% in the first 24 hours (yielding a greenhouse gas emission), and continues to degrade thereafter. If you convert the same dry biomass to ammonia and then urea via gasification, the Haber process, and additional steps, you can generate about 17% of the dry weight as fixed N, which in the form of urea or AN will not degrade quickly (17% vs. less than 2% by weight, typically). Manure is an excellent fertilizer carrier and soil amendment. I would make the urea and AN from some of the dried manure, and add it to the rest for an optimum yield of useful N in the soil.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Orskov
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 12:31 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com

[Cascone, Ronald]

Neal: Thank you – absolutely accurate. You said it much better than I did without the salient anger at these guys that I always seem to let out, but every time I pick up an article on biofuels in the NY Times or WSJ, up pops the Pimental and Patzek duo and their nonsense.

 

Ron

 

---

From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CA...@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 2:06 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com

[Bob Orskov]

Neal I tried with my limited knowledge of biochemistry to calculate
the energy balance and came to semilar conclusion but I may well be
wrong I am sure you have thought more about it please then give us
the energy balance one the one side ethanol produced from say 1 tonne
of maize on the other side and energy cost of fertilizer sewing
cultivation herbicides harvesting separation of grain from cobs
transport to texas grinding and preparation for fermentation I am sure
lots of people like to know we need to show that the people from
Cornell and Davis are wrong we cannot just say they are!
On aspects of oil palm in Ghana will the farmers be allowed to have
their cattle in the plantation/ Bob

Prof E R Orskov
IFRU
Macaulay Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH

Tel 44 (0)1224 498243
Fax 44 (0)1224 243209
Email b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk
bobo...@eudoramail.com
bobo...@hotmail.com
http://www.macaulay.ac.uk/IFRU

>>> <CA...@aol.com> 03/01/07 7:06 PM >>>

In a message dated 3/1/2007 11:33:08 A.M. Central Standard Time,
b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

Thank you also for the information on the energy balance of ethanol
production from corn which has been well decribed by Patzek. The
results are as I
suspected but why are they doing it when the energy balance is negative
it
must be based on some strange economies.! Bob

Bob, don't be swayed by the Cornell and UC Davis energy balance of
ethanol.
I doubt that the authors even believe their own reports any more. They
were so
biased.

If we believed what they had to say we would be considering the cost of
the
production of the clothes you wear each day in the cost of your work
product.
Then there is the environmental impact of cutting the trees for your
home and
office. In their mind nothing appears to be sustainable. Yet the
world
continues to turn and we continue to advance.

Neal

<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers

free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at

http://www.aol.com.

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/1/2007 6:47:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

I tried with my limited knowledge of biochemistry to calculate
the energy balance  and came to semilar conclusion but I may well be
wrong     I am sure you have thought more about it please then give us
the energy balance  one the one side  ethanol produced from say 1 tonne
of maize on the other side and  energy cost of fertilizer  sewing
cultivation herbicides harvesting separation of grain from cobs
transport to texas grinding and preparation for fermentation I am sure
lots of people like to know we need to show that  the people from
Cornell and Davis are wrong we cannot just say they are!
On aspects of oil palm in Ghana will the farmers  be allowed to have
their cattle in the plantation/ Bob
Prof E R Orskov 

Dr. Orskov, The issue of the energy balance of ethanol has been stated and restated on the internet so many times.  It has come down to a matter of perspective.  If you believe that the environmental effects of mining the ore used to make a tractor is part of the ethanol energy balance you will believe that it is negative.

 

As I said before, the world keeps spinning and we keep moving forward inspite of those who don't see the path, only the potholes.

 

For me, I only care about ethanol if my client does. I am not a fan of it except as an investment opportunity and those are fading.  My associates have built 4 ethanol plants in the USA and are now looking at sites for 3 biodiesel plants.  I am proud to be part of their team but I don't put much stock in ethanol as a fuel myself.  I am a fan of butanol, biodiesel, gasification and methane from anaerobic digestion.

 

And the Ghana farmers will keep their flocks and herds.

 

Neal

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[Cascone, Ronald]

Bob: There is a massive literature on this subject wherein these two
professors are the odd men out among a very large group of experts -
Google it, and read it with a critical eye. Those of us who do this all
the time are bored with this discussion. To me, it is like having to
defend the theory of evolution against the creationists day after day. I
think Neal said it best - they load every possible irrelevant factor
into their analysis, including the power for the TV sets that the
farmers watch.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Orskov
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 7:46 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Alternative energy and rural development

[Cascone, Ronald]

Neal: We are really on the same page here – we are launching a new world-class study on biobutanol. I will keep you posted.

 

Ron

 

---

From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CA...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:11 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Alternative energy and rural development

 

In a message dated 3/1/2007 6:47:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

[CA...@aol.com]

Thanks Ron, biobutanol may be the future of CTT as well.

 

Neal

-------------------------------------------

rcas...@nexant.com writes:

Neal: We are really on the same page here – we are launching a new world-class study on biobutanol. I will keep you posted.

 

Ron

[Jacky Foo]

On 01/03/07, Bob Orskov <b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk> wrote:
> Thanks Reg It would not generally be a good idea to use manure for
> gassification much better biogas where you can then further exploit the
> biogas slurry as you do in Vietnam fertilizing fishponds and then use the
> water for irrigation after or use directly as fertilizer.

> >>> Reg Preston <trpr...@mekarn.org> 01/03/07 17:06 >>>
> More or less OK Jacky. About USD 50 for 1 m3 biogas/day. ..........

> The problem with gasifying manure is you have to dry it and you lose all
> the nitrogen. We need fertilizer to produce high yields of biomass. To
> burn fertilizer is not very sensible.

I understand that in a small farm situation in a developing country,
the fertiliser value of animal manure is high. One of the reasons why
biogas technology was introduced in Indian household farms was to
reverse the traditional use of manure in making dung cakes for cooking
fuel.

I also understand that in a large farm where animal manure is
generated at a high volume daily, the approach of using it as a
gasifier fuel becomes a viable option especially where animal
production site is not connected to crop production fields.

To tie this back to CTT discussion, the use of pruned CTT biomass does
represent a fuel resource for gasifiers and excess heat could be used
to dry CTT seed cake to make animal feed.

Our human thinking is that we choose the burn and disposal approach
because it is a easy way to get rid of a resource that accumulates
quicker than an ecologically sound method. With CTT seed cake, there
is of course a risk that someone may feed it to the gasifier too.

P.S: I visited a brewery in Japan that dries brewery spent grain. When
stock accumulates, they burn the dried SG too because burning is
cheaper than dumping fees.

regards
jacky

--
+++++
IOBB will meet in Australia 6-9 July 2008 at the 1st Intl Conf on
Technologies and Strategic Management of Sustainable Biosystems. JOIN
US.
http://www.etc.murdoch.edu.au/pages/conf1.html

[Horst Doelle]

Ron,
Well said. I fully agree with your statement. It also looks like one has
these days to ask first "Where did you get the money from for this study ?"
The answer ex[lains often the statements. I am a scientist myself, but I am
very disappointed with many of my colleagues out of above reasons.
Horst

[Bob Orskov]

Neal It certainly stated in this conference by You and Ron . Is the
problem here that there are some who put dollars on one side of the
equation and dollars on the other and another group who put energy on
one side of the equation and energy on the other and see how it match!
For the sake of global warming and our planet I think the enery equation
is more sustainable.!I know of nobody who knows more about renewable
energy than Dr Preston so his opinion is to me very important.
On aspects of oil palm plantations in GHANA You may be interested in
work from Sumatra and Indonesia I have bneen involved with where we find
that cattle can be grazed under oil palm even at full canopy at a rate
of about 2 per ha and even benifit the oil palm yield.
Bob

Prof E R Orskov
IFRU
Macaulay Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH

Tel 44 (0)1224 498243
Fax 44 (0)1224 243209
Email b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk
bobo...@eudoramail.com
bobo...@hotmail.com
http://www.macaulay.ac.uk/IFRU

>>> "Cascone, Ronald" <rcas...@nexant.com> 03/02/07 2:36 AM >>>
Neal: We are really on the same page here - we are launching a new

world-class study on biobutanol. I will keep you posted.

Ron

________________________________

From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of CA...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:11 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Alternative energy and rural development

In a message dated 3/1/2007 6:47:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

I tried with my limited knowledge of biochemistry to calculate
the energy balance and came to semilar conclusion but I may
well be
wrong I am sure you have thought more about it please then
give us
the energy balance one the one side ethanol produced from say
1 tonne
of maize on the other side and energy cost of fertilizer
sewing
cultivation herbicides harvesting separation of grain from cobs
transport to texas grinding and preparation for fermentation I
am sure
lots of people like to know we need to show that the people
from
Cornell and Davis are wrong we cannot just say they are!
On aspects of oil palm in Ghana will the farmers be allowed to
have
their cattle in the plantation/ Bob
Prof E R Orskov

Dr. Orskov, The issue of the energy balance of ethanol has been stated

and restated on the internet so many times. It has come down to a
matter of perspective. If you believe that the environmental effects of
mining the ore used to make a tractor is part of the ethanol energy
balance you will believe that it is negative.

As I said before, the world keeps spinning and we keep moving forward
inspite of those who don't see the path, only the potholes.

For me, I only care about ethanol if my client does. I am not a fan of
it except as an investment opportunity and those are fading. My
associates have built 4 ethanol plants in the USA and are now looking at
sites for 3 biodiesel plants. I am proud to be part of their team but I
don't put much stock in ethanol as a fuel myself. I am a fan of
butanol, biodiesel, gasification and methane from anaerobic digestion.

And the Ghana farmers will keep their flocks and herds.

Neal

________________________________

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com
<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redi
r=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom> .

[CA...@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk writes:

On aspects of  oil palm plantations in GHANA You may be interested in
work from Sumatra and Indonesia I have bneen involved with where we find
that cattle can be grazed under oil palm  even at full canopy at a rate
of about 2 per ha and even benifit the oil palm yield.
Bob


Prof E R Orskov 

Bob, I am very interested in this research.  It is our intention to provide a benefit to the local population of Ghana with the planting of the oil seed crops. 

 

Neal

---

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

[Hanns-Andre Pitot]

Could anybody explain biobuthanol to us? How do you get it, and how
does it compare with ethanol?

Hanns-André

On 2 Mar, 03:43, C...@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks Ron, biobutanol may be the future of CTT as well.
>
> Neal
> -------------------------------------------
>

> rcasc...@nexant.com writes:
>
> Neal: We are really on the same page here - we are launching a new

> world-class study on biobutanol. I will keep you posted.
> Ron
>

> <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
> email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL athttp://www.aol.com.

[Hanns-Andre Pitot]

Aren't the outbacks of the world part of the solution to the problems
in LA, NY, Sao Paula, etc...? It's only there, that there would be
the space to grow large quantities of energy plants. Apart from the
Australian outback, most remaining 'outbacks' are located in
developing countries, so it IS a question of addressing the poor rural
farmers in order to convince them of planting energy crops. THEY are
the solution to the problem. But will peanuts and sunflowers do?

Hanns-André

[Hanns-Andre Pitot]

I'm adding oil palms to my question since we talked of those, too.

HA

[Bob Orskov]

Dear Reg I do not blame blame you for booking out it is a waste of time. I did not get an answer to my comments on dollar equation as opposed to energy equation . It seem to be a conversation between 2 Americans I would have thought the chap with address in dalat could say something sensible best regards Bob

Prof E R Orskov

IFRU
Macaulay Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen AB15 8QH

Tel 44 (0)1224 498243
Fax 44 (0)1224 243209
Email b.or...@macaulay.ac.uk
bobo...@eudoramail.com
bobo...@hotmail.com
http://www.macaulay.ac.uk/IFRU

>>> Reg Preston <trpr...@mekarn.org> 03/01/07 5:06 PM >>>

More or less OK Jacky. About USD 50 for 1 m3 biogas/day. But we don't
use biogas in the gasifier!!! We mix biogas and producer (wood) gas in
the engine; equally we cook with mixtures of the two gases.

The problem with gasifying manure is you have to dry it and you lose all

the nitrogen. We need fertilizer to produce high yields of biomass. To

rn fertilizer is not very sensible.

Reg

--
T R Preston
Senior Editor, Livestock Research for Rural Development
Readers and contributers to LRRD are requested to join the LRRD-Announce List.
http://lists.lrrd.net/mailman/listinfo/lrrd-announce
UTA-TOSOLY - Finca Ecológica
Morario - Guapota -
AA # 48, Socorro, Santander, Santander del Sur, Colombia
Tel: 57- 7-7246058
Celular: 315-3536935
President, University of Tropical Agriculture Foundation
http://www.utafoundation.org (Describes the activities at the University of Tropical Agriculture Foundation)
http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd (The international on-line journal on sustainable livestock-based agriculture)
http://www.mekarn.org (The web site of the Sida/SAREC Regional Network for livestock training and research in the Lower Mekong basin)

[Paul Olivier]

The chap from Dalat has been traveling this past week and has not been in a position to respond to every topic raised in this forum. However he does not find anything boring or irrelevant about the comments generated by Brietenbeck, Casconne or van Milligen. They are right on target.

Thanks.

Paul A. Olivier

-----Original Message-----
From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Orskov
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:54 AM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: Alternative energy and rural development

Reg

UTA-TOSOLY - Finca Ecol�gica

[li_kangmin]

Unsubscribe.
Any news about purifying effluents from fishponds.
Thanks.

------------------
li_kangmin
2007-03-05

-------------------------------------------------------------
发件人：Paul Olivier
发送日期：2007-03-04 09:12:30
收件人：iobb...@googlegroups.com
抄送：
主题：[TALLOW TREE] Re: Alternative energy and rural development

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
Google Groups on Chinese Tallow Tree
http://groups.google.com/group/iobb-ctt
To comment on this message, use the REPLY menu option
To initiate a new topic, send email to iobb...@googlegroups.com

Please inform and invite friends at:
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-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---

[CA...@aol.com]

No message was attached to the email from li_ka...@yahoo.com.cn

 

Neal

---

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

[Hanns-Andre Pitot]

Bob,

I think there is a case for both. There is a need of comparing
various crops with each other. The traditional approach has been to
calculate the net income on a per hectare basis, but the net energy
balance on a per ha per year basis could give a first indication given
specific climate and soil conditions.

For example: In the Louisiana situation, the cultivation of CTT
appears very promising, but how to quantify that and how to compare
CTT with sugar cane, which has also been suggested as an energy crop
in Louisiana? In specific areas (saline coastal, for example) CTT may
be the only option, but in many cases, CTT and sugar cane would
probably be alternatives. And there would certainly be more
alterantives, like, perhaps, sunflowers and soy beans in alternation.
The net energy balance on a per ha/acre basis could give a first clue,
the details could be worked out in dollars.

What do you think?

Hanns-André

On 3 Mar, 23:53, "Bob Orskov" <b.ors...@macaulay.ac.uk> wrote:
> Dear Reg I do not blame blame you for booking out it is a waste of time. I did not get an answer to my comments on dollar equation as opposed to energy equation . It seem to be a conversation between 2 Americans I would have thought the chap with address in dalat could say something sensible best regards Bob
>
> Prof E R Orskov
> IFRU
> Macaulay Institute
> Craigiebuckler
> Aberdeen AB15 8QH
>
> Tel 44 (0)1224 498243
> Fax 44 (0)1224 243209

> Email b.ors...@macaulay.ac.uk
> bobors...@eudoramail.com
> bobors...@hotmail.comhttp://www.macaulay.ac.uk/IFRU
>
> >>> Reg Preston <trpres...@mekarn.org> 03/01/07 5:06 PM >>>

>
> More or less OK Jacky. About USD 50 for 1 m3 biogas/day. But we don't
> use biogas in the gasifier!!! We mix biogas and producer (wood) gas in
> the engine; equally we cook with mixtures of the two gases.
>
> The problem with gasifying manure is you have to dry it and you lose all
> the nitrogen. We need fertilizer to produce high yields of biomass. To
> rn fertilizer is not very sensible.
>
> Reg
>
> --
> T R Preston
> Senior Editor, Livestock Research for Rural Development
> Readers and contributers to LRRD are requested to join the LRRD-Announce List.http://lists.lrrd.net/mailman/listinfo/lrrd-announce

> UTA-TOSOLY - Finca Ecol?gica

> Morario - Guapota -
> AA # 48, Socorro, Santander, Santander del Sur, Colombia
> Tel: 57- 7-7246058
> Celular: 315-3536935

> President, University of Tropical Agriculture Foundationhttp://www.utafoundation.org(Describes the activities at the University of Tropical Agriculture Foundation)http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd(The international on-line journal on sustainable livestock-based agriculture)http://www.mekarn.org(The web site of the Sida/SAREC Regional Network for livestock training and research in the Lower Mekong basin)

[Paul Olivier]

Today I posted pictures of the Chinese Tallow test plot at my wholesale
nursery in Grand Prairie, Louisiana.

Paul A. Olivier

[David Calado]

Hi Paul,

Could you please send me the photos? Unhappily, what seemed to be promising
exchange of experiences about the tallow tree oil and biomass production
turned out in a non-expert discussion forum about futuristic high-end
technologies.

David

*****************

David Calado

IPPAR - Instituto Português do Património Arquitectónico
(The Portuguese State Institute for Architectonic Heritage / State
Department for Cultural Affairs)
P.O. Box 457
8001-906 Faro
Portugal

Phone: 289803633
Fax: 289803631

[Paul Olivier]

I posted the pictures on the IOBB-CTT for everyone to see.
Actually there is not much to see other than the two-foot transplants that
are still in their winter state. But in another month, they should be
growing nicely.

I do not understand why there has been any objection concerning forays into
futuristic high-end technologies. As a result of these discussions, I am
able to walk away with a clear set of options on what to do with Tallow tree
biomass. At this point, I can hardly contain my enthusiasm.

I appreciate the input of van Milligen, Cascone and Breitenbeck. All three
have their feet squarely on the ground, and yet they are not afraid to think
far beyond of conventional approaches.

It is an absolute tragedy that most of the world remains stuck with the
sordid option of meeting its energy needs with fossil fuels. It did not have
to happen this way. This was a deliberate choice.

Paul A. Olivier

-----Original Message-----
From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

[Jacky Foo]

On 06/03/07, Paul Olivier <paul.o...@esrint.com> wrote:
> Today I posted pictures of the Chinese Tallow test plot at my wholesale
> nursery in Grand Prairie, Louisiana.

for those who also are wondering where Paul O posted his pictures, I
just found them in http://groups.google.com/group/iobb-ctt/files

regards
jacky

[Cascone, Ronald]

Paul: Thank you for your validation. I feel that our conversation was worthwhile. I am learning much about new areas, and have been glad to contribute my views. The future is now.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Olivier
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:02 AM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: test plot pictures

I posted the pictures on the IOBB-CTT for everyone to see.
Actually there is not much to see other than the two-foot transplants that
are still in their winter state. But in another month, they should be
growing nicely.

I do not understand why there has been any objection concerning forays into
futuristic high-end technologies. As a result of these discussions, I am
able to walk away with a clear set of options on what to do with Tallow tree
biomass. At this point, I can hardly contain my enthusiasm.

I appreciate the input of van Milligen, Cascone and Breitenbeck. All three
have their feet squarely on the ground, and yet they are not afraid to think
far beyond of conventional approaches.

It is an absolute tragedy that most of the world remains stuck with the
sordid option of meeting its energy needs with fossil fuels. It did not have
to happen this way. This was a deliberate choice.

Paul A. Olivier

-----Original Message-----
From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of David Calado
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:23 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com

[David Calado]

Paul,

Don't get me wrong. I certainly believe that we ought to research in
alternative energies. However, the symposium was about the CTT.

I believe that because of the amount of investment and knowledge necessary
to develop the high-end techs to full commercial systems, it ought to be
something for research departments.

However, if you want some ideas of what to do with the biomass you could
check the German Choren Industries F-T technology (Sun Diesel). If you are
speaking about small-scale gasifiers, than you should take a look at the
Finish catalytic systems of VVT and Condens Öy or the Entimos Öy
micro-gasifier. What I'm telling is that those systems were developed by
some of the finest specialists that we have in Europe and all of them imply
hundreds of thousands of research hours and millions of Euros in research
investment.

[Paul Olivier]

David,

My company has a gasifier that utilizes two oxy-fuel burners. It was tested
on automobile shredder residue and it works quite nicely. Surely it will
work on the much simpler Tallow tree biomass.

The big question has always been what to do with the hydrogen produced by
our gasifier. Thanks to all these far-out discussions, I now see clearly
what must be done. If the group had simply stuck to discussions on the
cultivation of the Tallow tree, the biomass problem would remain a mystery.

But in spite of all of the above, there is one more device that I discovered
that really closes the loop on this biomass problem. I know this technology
will work, but I dare not bring it up here, for surely someone will object
that it does not relate to Tallow trees.

Thanks.

[Charles Twesigye]

Dear Paul,

I will be in New Orleans, Louisian, April 11-15, 2007.
Any possibility of having access to a CTT plot during
this visit? Kindly advise.

Best regards,

Charles K.Twesigye
IOBB CHAIRMAN (2007-2008)

Olivier <paul.o...@esrint.com> wrote:

Charles Kakuhikire Twesigye,
Chairman, Department of Biological Sciences,
Faculty of Science,Kyambogo University,
P.O.Box 1 Kyambogo,Kampala, Uganda.
Tel:256 41 285001, Mobile: 0782353775
http://www.kyambogo.ac.ug
IOBB (Intl Org for Biotechnology and Bioengineering)
Web: http://www.iobbnet.org

____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

[Paul Olivier]

Charles,

I live in Vietnam at the moment, but I will be in the States from April 2 to
April 21. You are always welcome to visit my nursery in Louisiana. I plan to
be in Louisiana over at least one weekend.

Thanks.
Paul

Paul A. Olivier
ESR International LLC
27c Pham Hong Thai, Ward 10
Dalat City
Lam Dong Province
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Texas telephone: 1-214-306-8746 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-6458735 (in Vietnam)
Mobile: 84-90-6458735 (outside Vietnam)
New website: http://esrint.com/default.aspx
Old Website: http://www.esrla.com/
Skype address: Xpolivier

-----Original Message-----
From: iobb...@googlegroups.com [mailto:iobb...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Charles Twesigye
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:16 PM
To: iobb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TALLOW TREE] Re: test plot pictures

[Charles Twesigye]

Paul:

I will be in the States from March 25 to April 20.
How far is your nursery in Louisiana from New Orleans?
I plan to be in Louisian from April 11-15.
I could include a visit to your nursery on my program.

Regards,
Charles

Olivier <paul.o...@esrint.com> wrote:

____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

[Paul Olivier]

Charles,

I will be near my nursery on April 7 and 8.
You are in Louisiana April 11-15.
I will ask my nephew to show you the nursery.

[Charles Twesigye]

Paul:

That is kind of you.

Regards,

Charles

<paul.o...@esrint.com> wrote:

>
> Charles,
>
> I will be near my nursery on April 7 and 8.
> You are in Louisiana April 11-15.
> I will ask my nephew to show you the nursery.
>
> Thanks.
> Paul
>
> Paul A. Olivier
> ESR International LLC
> 27c Pham Hong Thai, Ward 10
> Dalat City
> Lam Dong Province
> Vietnam
>

Charles Kakuhikire Twesigye,
Chairman, Department of Biological Sciences,
Faculty of Science,Kyambogo University,
P.O.Box 1 Kyambogo,Kampala, Uganda.
Tel:256 41 285001, Mobile: 0782353775
http://www.kyambogo.ac.ug
IOBB (Intl Org for Biotechnology and Bioengineering)
Web: http://www.iobbnet.org

____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

[Paul Olivier]

I have edited the Chinese Tallow paper:
http://www.esrla.com/pdf/tallow.pdf

Paul A. Olivier
ESR International LLC

[David Calado]

Thanx Paul,

David

*****************

David Calado

IPPAR - Instituto Português do Património Arquitectónico
(The Portuguese State Institute for Architectonic Heritage / State
Department for Cultural Affairs)
P.O. Box 457
8001-906 Faro
Portugal

Phone: 289803633
Fax: 289803631

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Olivier" <paul.o...@esrint.com>
To: <iobb...@googlegroups.com>