Workshop on furture energy mixes
Hanns-Andre Pitot
As you are aware I have created a Google Group for Bioenergy (as Jacky
Foo suggested) and invited IOBB members to join. In this group we can
start a discussion to see what happens next.
As I am going on leave tonight you won't hear from me until late
January, but hopefully some other members will become more active.
I am not aware of German University options, so can't help on that
front.
Hooroo is an Australian form of Goodbye, my name is Paul.
All the best,
Have a good Christmas,
HOOROO
Hanns-Andre Pitot wrote:
>
> Hi Hooroo,
>
> the articles you've referred to are very interesting, especially the fist
> one. It's clear that there is a lot going on in the area, and the workshop
> I am suggesting could serve as the starting point of IOBB getting involved.
> About ag residues, I completely agree with you.
>
> On a more personal note: I am thinking of making proper nutrient recycling
> in the future bioethanol industry of the tropics (based on sugar cane and
> other plants like bamboo) the subject of a Ph.D. thesis. I am thinking of a
> university somewhere in central Germany (where my aging mother is located).
> If you would have any suggestions on this, I'd be happy to hear about it.
>
> So, how do we proceed about the workshop? Looks as though I am getting
> support from you, but you are also the only one. I think we might as well
> go ahead - people will be getting interested as we are moving on.
>
> And what about the title?
>
> HA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Harris" <paul....@adelaide.edu.au>
> To: "Hanns-Andre Pitot" <ma...@hapitot.speedlinq.nl>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:01 AM
> Subject: Re: workshop on future energy mixes
>
> > G'day Hanns-Andre,
> >
> > Yes, I did get mixed up between hay and straw in my hurry (but do know
> > the difference!). Ag residues are not really wastes, if you keep taking
> > away the straw you will end up with a desert unless you put back the
> > nutrients removed (and that is even more energy!) plus you deplete soil
> > organic carbon. I see it as much simpler to leave the residues (as would
> > happen naturally) or possibly use them in biological systems (THAT'S
> > IOBB contribution, as you rightly point out!).
> >
> > http://www.ecpa.be/website/perspectives.asp?persp=11&a=42
> > http://www.biopact.com/
> >
> > Are two more sources that may help you (if you haven't already found
> > them!).
> >
> > Hanns-Andre Pitot wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Hooroo,
> >>
> >> I think you've misunderstood the point about hey, as you've interpreted
> >> it.
> >> What is meant is straw and other ag residues that many view as wastes,
> >> i.e.
> >> bioethanol from celluloses. - You can't feed horses on this. I think
> >> it's
> >> definitely the trend, and I think IOBB should be involved or at least
> >> have
> >> an opinion, especially since it's biotechnology and bioengineering!
> >>
> >> Your point about high tech is well taken - this new energy world is going
> >> to
> >> be very high tech, with GMOs playing a decisive role in converting
> >> celluloses into bioethanol. I think there is nothing we can change about
> >> it. People are just crazy about driving their own car, and the demand is
> >> simply going to be there. The question is going to be how all of this is
> >> going to be done without harming the environment too badly. That's why,
> >> especially, I think IOBB should get involved.
> >>
> >> My idea is to compile a couple of paper on this subject with different
> >> points of view (that's why I'd like to include something by Greenpeace),
> >> and
> >> to discuss it in a workshop, or whatever.
> >>
> >> Hear from you, HA
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Paul Harris" <paul....@adelaide.edu.au>
> >> To: "Hanns-Andre Pitot" <ma...@hapitot.speedlinq.nl>
> >> Cc: "Jacky Foo" <Jack...@gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:00 AM
> >> Subject: Re: workshop on future energy mixes
> >>
> >> > G'day Hans-Andre,
> >> >
> >> > Some of the document is interesting and it raises some issues that IOBB
> >> > members could/should be looking at.
> >> >
> >> > As I looked through the document I am worried by the "high tech"
> >> > approach and the emphasis on transport fuel and electricity - of course
> >> > this is what the company are on about but I think they have plenty of
> >> > company in government, industry and the general pubic (including the
> >> > media!). My other worry is the thought that we use hay as a source for
> >> > transport fuel in cars - it would be interesting to compare the use of
> >> > hay in that situation to the alternative of feeding it to horses and
> >> > getting energy and organic fertiliser from the resulting manure. Their
> >> > points about China, India and the inequality in energy use are spot on!
> >> >
> >> > I think it was from another article last week (Swedish?) that I read
> >> > about biofuel for 75000 cars (biogas from cellulose) and thought about
> >> > how much more the energy could do if used directly rather than being
> >> > used to transform energy into a form we want (but really don't need -
> >> > imagine how many push bikes could be built from 75000 cars!).
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps the workshop could look at "low tech" approaches and possibly
> >> > how society may need to change?
> >> >
> >> > I think major changes are ahead and we need to stop trying to maintain
> >> > the current "fools paradise"!
> >> >
> >> > Have a good day,
> >> > HOOROO
> >> >
> >> >> Hanns-Andre Pitot wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear Paul, dear Jacky,
> >> >>
> >> >> I am attaching this publication I was talking about. May-be you tell
> >> >> me you respective opinions about my idea before we make any move.
> >> >> Concerning Greenpeace, at least in Germany, they are a supplier of
> >> >> 'green electricity', and I am sure they have publications about their
> >> >> energy policy.
> >> >>
> >> >> Note that I don't necessarily like all what they are saying in the
> >> >> attached publication, but the general thrust is ok.
> >> >>
> >> >> Hear from you, HA
> >> >>
> >> >> Name: Elsam
> >> >> essential_thinking.pdf
> >> >> Type: Portable Document
> >> >> Elsam essential_thinking.pdf Format
> >> >> (application/pdf)
> >> >> Encoding: base64
> >> >> Download Status: Not downloaded with
> >> >> message
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Mr. Paul Harris
> >> > Faculty of Sciences, DP710
> >> > The University of Adelaide, Roseworthy Campus, AUSTRALIA 5371
> >> > Ph : +61 8 8303 7880
> >> > Fax : +61 8 8303 7979
> >> > mailto:paul....@adelaide.edu.au
> >> > I now use "Spam Assassin" - if you do not get a reply please make
> >> > contact again (by fax?)
> >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris
> >> > Member IOBB http://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/
> >> >
> >> > CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
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> >
> > --
> > Mr. Paul Harris
> > Faculty of Sciences, DP710
> > The University of Adelaide, Roseworthy Campus, AUSTRALIA 5371
> > Ph : +61 8 8303 7880
> > Fax : +61 8 8303 7979
> > mailto:paul....@adelaide.edu.au
> > I now use "Spam Assassin" - if you do not get a reply please make
> > contact again (by fax?)
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris
> > Member IOBB http://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/
> >
> > CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
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--
Mr. Paul Harris
Faculty of Sciences, DP710
The University of Adelaide, Roseworthy Campus, AUSTRALIA 5371
Ph : +61 8 8303 7880
Fax : +61 8 8303 7979
mailto:paul....@adelaide.edu.au
C.Van Milligen
example, results in distillers grains as a byproduct which are in some
ways a better feed ingredient than the original corn.
There are issues in the USA about local surpluses of distillers grain
due to concentrations of ethanol plants in certain areas. If there are
not sufficient livestock nearby to use the distillers grains promptly
they must be dried. This is an additional cost to the ethanol plant
and some prefer to dump the distillers grains in the land fill than to
dry them.
This is an economic decision and is mostly effected by the
profitability of each option. Since ethanol is currently subsidized in
the USA the dumping of this excellent feed product will be an option.
In other parts of the world the distillers grains can be used as an
additional economic incentive for agriculture related industries to
locate near an ethanol plant. In many cases this is true whether the
ethanol is a product of corn or other crops.
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc
www.kentuckyenrichment.com
ca...@aol.com
On Dec 27 2006, 12:05 pm, "Hanns-Andre Pitot"
> > >> > mailto:paul.har...@adelaide.edu.au
> > >> > I now use "Spam Assassin" - if you do not get a reply please make
> > >> > contact again (by fax?)
> > >> >http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris
> > >> > Member IOBBhttp://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/
>
> > >> > CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
> > >> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > This email message is intended only for the addressee(s)
> > >> > and contains information that may be confidential and/or
> > >> > copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please
> > >> > notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete
> > >> > this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email
> > >> > by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly
> > >> > prohibited. No representation is made that this email or
> > >> > any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is
> > >> > recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient.
>
> > > --
> > > Mr. Paul Harris
> > > Faculty of Sciences, DP710
> > > The University of Adelaide, Roseworthy Campus, AUSTRALIA 5371
> > > Ph : +61 8 8303 7880
> > > Fax : +61 8 8303 7979
> > > mailto:paul.har...@adelaide.edu.au
> > > I now use "Spam Assassin" - if you do not get a reply please make
> > > contact again (by fax?)
> > >http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris
> > > Member IOBBhttp://www.iobbnet.org/drupal/
>
> > > CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > This email message is intended only for the addressee(s)
> > > and contains information that may be confidential and/or
> > > copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please
> > > notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete
> > > this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email
> > > by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly
> > > prohibited. No representation is made that this email or
> > > any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is
> > > recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient.--
> Mr. Paul Harris
> Faculty of Sciences, DP710
> The University of Adelaide, Roseworthy Campus, AUSTRALIA 5371
> Ph : +61 8 8303 7880
> Fax : +61 8 8303 7979
> mailto:paul.har...@adelaide.edu.au
Jacky Foo
> Jacky, several US landfills have separate composting sections. While it
> would be logical for distillers grains to be directed to that section I am
> unaware of whether this is the case. .....
> I would prefer that Black Soldier Fly larvae be employed since they will
> produce a new feed, fuel and fertilizer product with enhanced marketability
> over compost. Failing that I would recommend that the ethanol byproduct be
> used in a gasification system to produce heat, power and clean water.
I think it was (1996 info) at Kirin Brewery (Japan) where brewer spent
grains was air dried and sold as animal feed but any accumulated
surplus was burnt as fuel. Their objective was zero waste.
I saw your description (posted to IOBB Bioenergy WG) on the simple
Imbert style gasifier (
http://groups.google.com/group/iobb-bioenergy-wg/browse_thread/thread/275cd1f924598174/#)
and was attracted to
>While we used dry sawdust in this test we have conducted tests of
>similar gasification equipment using animal manures and produced a high
>energy hydrogen gas for these uses.
I visited Centre for Livestock and Agriculture Development (located
outside Phnom Pehn in Feb 2006; CelAgrid -
http://www.utafoundation.org/utacambod/utacam.htm) with friends from
Thailand and Cambodia and met with Reg Preston and Khieu Borin. One
of the key attractions was their gasifier which is fired with wood
chip and any fibrous materials that were generated via farm
activities. During the visit, there was an expression of interest
that one could be fabricated for 2000 US$ for another farm in
Cambodia. However an issue in this proposal was the need to hire
people to cut and bring in wood to fire a stationary gasifier or even
for one that is attached to a vehicle.
Q: do you know of any successful case study for a gasifier to run a
tractor or a truck ?
Q: do you know of a landfill site that use a gasifier (fed with
landfill wastes) to run a shredder to generate materials for a compost
site ?
There are two possible sites for such a project.
(a) in Pakistan with Mr. S. Irfanullah. He is the IOBB Natl Rep for
Pakistan and currently setting up a G-GROUP to facilitate the
development of projects in Pakistan with foreign partners. When the
G-GROUP is created, I hope you will discuss how your gasifier could be
used specifically for a project in Pakistan.
(b) in Cameroon at a dump site in Bamenda. Talks have been on since
Nov 2006 for a contract to improve a poorly managed waste dump as well
as leachate treatment.
In both cases (Pakistan and Cameroon) I see the use of a gasifier as a
means for disposal of combustibles at a dump site and for onsite
electricity power generation. But at the same time, there is always
an issue of funding to bring in a test unit and to set up a system for
its continued application.
Does your company have any partnership experience in a developing
country to do this and would it be possible to repeat it (with
funding) in Cameroon and/or in Pakistan ?
regards
jacky
C.Van Milligen
It appears that you are suggesting to utilize the work you and Dr. Paul
Olivier developed
for the elimination of landfills via separation of the recyclable
andsalvagable (as is usally done by scavangers), removal of the metals
via dense water separation, consumption of the digestable organics by
Black Soldier Fly larvae and gasification of the combustibles.
This is an extraordinary system has an excellent PPT presentation by
Dr. Olivier and was reported on the previous IOOB group regarding Black
Soldier Fly technology. My above description adds the gasifier. I
understand that you are very skilled in Black Soldier Fly technology
and applaud your work in this field.
We are in the process of proposing a number of BSF remediation projects
that will yield significant financial rewards for their managers in the
USA, Mexico and Central America.
The gasifier can be designed to be very forgiving of the fuels used to
produce heat and hot water, even distilled water in modest volumes up
to 5,000 gallons per day per small unit gasifier. Larger system are
commercially available but exceed the range in which we work.
Yes, I know of motor vehicles who use wood gas from a gasifier to
operate. The unit we use as an electrical generator would be mobile if
we put the gasifier in the bed of the pickup truck instead of placing
it on the ground. This is not an advanced technical achievement. One
pickup truck with which I am familiar drove across the United States
for $30 in gasoline round trip. The balance of the fuel was wood gas
from a gasifier in the bed of the truck.
We are currently working with an Indian retired professor to place
gasifiers for electrical and heat energy and distilled water in
southern India. We are also working to place them in South African
refugee camps, a Cental American medical clinic, and Mexican dairy
farms.
The Mexican units will use dairy manure as the fuel to operate.
Regards,
Cornelius Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc
www.kentuckyenrichment.com
ca...@aol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan 14, 10:21 am, "Jacky Foo" <jacky....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/01/07, C...@aol.com <C...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Jacky, several US landfills have separate composting sections. While it
> > would be logical for distillers grains to be directed to that section I am
> > unaware of whether this is the case. .....
> > I would prefer that Black Soldier Fly larvae be employed since they will
> > produce a new feed, fuel and fertilizer product with enhanced marketability
> > over compost. Failing that I would recommend that the ethanol byproduct be
> > used in a gasification system to produce heat, power and clean water.I think it was (1996 info) at Kirin Brewery (Japan) where brewer spent
> grains was air dried and sold as animal feed but any accumulated
> surplus was burnt as fuel. Their objective was zero waste.
>
> I saw your description (posted to IOBB Bioenergy WG) on the simple
> Imbert style gasifier (http://groups.google.com/group/iobb-bioenergy-wg/browse_thread/thread...)
> and was attracted to
>
> >While we used dry sawdust in this test we have conducted tests of
> >similar gasification equipment using animal manures and produced a high
> >energy hydrogen gas for these uses.I visited Centre for Livestock and Agriculture Development (located
> outside Phnom Pehn in Feb 2006; CelAgrid -http://www.utafoundation.org/utacambod/utacam.htm) with friends from
Jacky Foo
> We are currently working with an Indian retired professor to place
> gasifiers for electrical and heat energy and distilled water in
> southern India.
what is distilled water used for in your project ?
> We are also working to place them in South African
> refugee camps, a Cental American medical clinic, and Mexican dairy
> farms.
My thinking is to take us away from the practice of burying all the
biomass at landfills and instead use combustible materials from dump
site to feed gasifiers. What I have not figured out is how can the
energy be used on-site so that a commercial product can be generated
that can make the operation financially sustainable and at the same
time create employment.
Please tell us more about feed sources and how the energy is used at
the refugee camp and dairy farm.
regards
jacky
Hanns-Andre Pitot
There are, of course, the mass-burn waste-to-energy
facilities (incinerators) that are common use (and
heavily criticized). In Germany, they've also
implemented biogas plants as a pretreatment to
landfilling (after the removal of recyclables and
separation of organics at source, which is never
100%).
Hanns-Andre
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Hanns-Andre Pitot
could you explain to us what the advantage of
gasification would be over biogas (for wet wastes) or
plain firing (for wood or pellets)? The latter could
be used to fire a boiler that is hooked to a turbine,
like in regular power plants.
Regards,
Hanns-Andre
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Hanns-Andre Pitot
could you explain to us what the advantage of
gasification would be over biogas (for wet wastes) or
plain firing (for wood or pellets)? The latter could
be used to fire a boiler that is hooked to a turbine,
like in regular power plants.
Regards,
Hanns-Andre
--- "C.Van Milligen" <ca...@aol.com> wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Jacky Foo
source: http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol_news.htm
The Renewable Fuels Association (RFA) estimates that U.S. production of
ethanol fuel reached 5 billion gallons in 2006, an increase of about 28
percent over 2005, when about 3.9 billion gallons were produced. The
RFA attributes the industry growth to the phase-out of MTBE as a fuel
additive (with ethanol providing the best replacement option), federal
renewable fuels production requirements, and growing demand for clean
fuels. At year's end, the industry had 110 ethanol biorefineries with
enough combined capacity to produce more than 5.3 billion gallons of
ethanol per year, plus enough projects set to go online in the next 18
months to more than double that capacity. Ethanol is also finding new
outlets to the consumer, as 1,000 fuel pumps in the United States are
selling E85, a mixture of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.
++++
Hanns-Andre Pitot
Thanks, Jacky, for this info. In the US, the ethanol
is primarily made from corn. Americans can afford to
do something like that since they still have plenty of
land. If the whole world were to do it (i.e. replace
85% of gasoline by bioethanol from corn and other food
crops), the poor of the world won't have enough to
eat. The World Watch Institute has also pointed out
the problem. That's why I am in favor of using
cellulose (from wood, straw, etc.) and other nonfood
crops in order to produce ethanol. But commercially
viable processes are still in the making (except
ethanol from sugar cane, that I don't consider a food
crop). In Canada, there is Iogen that has already
tested such a process (have a look at their website,
if you like).
Greetings to everybody,
Hanns-Andre
--- Jacky Foo <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Luke
Your comment is interesting, although I think for too long the poor world
has depended too much on handout and not enough energy on using the availble
resources that are indigenous and are better suited to our local contions.
If we could get the world to think differently about food scurity. Too often
we just give the person fish instaed of teaching them how to fish. Food
security in the poor world could easily be adressed by more utilisation of
basic technology like hydorponics, aqau farming and more efficient use, of
energy. I like the idea of the cellulose option. When I refer to the
poor-world I'm refering to africa only.
Luke
Hanns-Andre Pitot
Hi Luke,
I completely agree with what you are saying. Which
part of Africa do you come from? In Mauritius, they've
built a first bioethanol plant that is fed with sugar
(or syrup, I'm not sure). As you are probably aware
of, Mauritius is a small country with a big sugar
industry. I think this kind of thing can be copied in
many parts of Africa as sugar cane grows very easily
if the rainfall is high.
The other thing would be to develop technology that
would convert cellulose into sugars. That could
include the bagasse from sugar cane, but it could also
be based on other ag residues, on woody wastes, or
wood specifically grown for that purpose. So far, such
processes are generally biotech based and patented in
developed countries. But there is still plenty of room
for exploration and research!
Hanns-Andre
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