The strategy of banning sexual mutilation

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jean-christophe Lurenbaum

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Nov 25, 2020, 11:35:38 AM11/25/20
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I open this topic to discuss a strategy that is quite common in networks fighting against sexual mutilation, particularly against FGM.

Is this the best strategy? What are its advantages and disadvantages?

jean-christophe Lurenbaum

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Nov 25, 2020, 12:20:53 PM11/25/20
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I have a legal question. There are plans in Europe to prohibit non-medical male circumcision before an age limit (Iceland, Denmark, Finland...).

But isn't there a legal problem because of the discrimination that such projects would introduce between female and male sexual mutilation? Indeed, female sexual mutilation is often prohibited regardless of age (this is the case in French legislation for example, and I suppose it is the same in other countries in Europe). National laws allowing non-medical male circumcision above a certain age would be discriminatory in relation to FGM and could therefore be challenged before the European Court of Human Rights or the Court of Justice of the European Union.

It could be argued that there would be no discrimination if male circumcision is performed on religious grounds, in the name of freedom of religion. However, this objection comes up against two arguments:

  • On the one hand, a distinction should be made in the bills between male circumcision for religious reasons (which would be legal from a certain age limit) and male circumcision for non-religious cultural reasons (a very frequent case in Africa): do the current drafts in Finland and Denmark make this difference?

  • On the other hand and most importantly, female circumcision can be practiced for religious reasons, especially in Islam. However, this practice is forbidden regardless of age in countries such as France, despite the right to freedom of religion.

On the religious motivation of female circumcision, see for example Brian Earp who has written several articles on the subject, or other authors:

  • ‘Unconstitutional’ US anti-FGM law exposes hypocrisy in child protection, Brian D Earp, 2019: Consider the case that prompted the federal ruling. It concerned a small Muslim sect called the Dawoodi Bohra. The Bohra practice what they call “khatna” – an Arabic word for circumcision – on girls and boys within their community. 
  • “Female Genital Cutting (FGC), Islam and the West” [Seminar Paper PDF], Alex Myers, 2015: The first part of the paper concerned the relationship between FGC and Islam. The writer argues that although FGC predates Islam and is not exclusively practiced by Muslims, it is deeply rooted in this religion. The second part of the paper is a case study of two majority-Muslim, Middle Eastern groups among whom the practice is still very common, Egyptian Arabs and Kurds. 

A scenario for the future would not be to abandon plans to ban male circumcision before an age limit, but that the current ban on FGM at any age should be the subject of public debate, to see whether it would be desirable to allow women to dispose of their bodies, as the project in Denmark plans to do, allowing non-medical male circumcision from the age of 18.

Here we see that it is difficult to have a strategy for male circumcision that does not take into account the context of female circumcision, and vice versa. The international coalition is perhaps the only place that currently exists for FGM and male circumcision organisations to successfully engage in a debate on these complex issues.

Steven Barendregt

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Nov 26, 2020, 11:56:35 PM11/26/20
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Just extend the ban on FGM to include males and intersex. Problem solved. There's also some strategic reasons to do it this way. I've brought this up before. I don't care if the ban doesn't have an age limit.

Steven Barendregt

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Nov 26, 2020, 11:58:54 PM11/26/20
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Also, as a matter of principle, FGM, IGM, and MGM should all be treated the same, because they are all the same issue, just different genders.

Steven Barendregt

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Nov 27, 2020, 12:13:09 AM11/27/20
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Focus on extending the ban on FGM to include all genders first. After that, if you want to argue for doctors and religious zealots to legally aid in mutilating adults with their informed consent, then be my guest, but I won't help you with that. Also I don't know why you'd want adults to be mutilated anyways, because that would only increase suffering in the world.

Guy Sinden

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Nov 27, 2020, 6:45:36 AM11/27/20
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If an adult woman wants a labiaplasty because she suffers from her optical condition, or a religious person wants to conform to his religion and he suffers if this step would be denied to him by a prohibition, then this is not mutilation but an act that goes hand in hand with the informed consent of the person concerned who wants to reduce his suffering by this decision.
Moreover, the statutes of ICASM / The Bodyguard were adopted very early, right at the beginning, and are well known and binding. So it cannot be a question of adapting them to visions that contradict them, but rather of whether one feels comfortable with them or not.

Steven Barendregt

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Nov 27, 2020, 3:11:44 PM11/27/20
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Can a person suffer from wishing they didn't have eyes?

I only ask because as a member of DaC, you're apparently the only ones here with the authority to determine which suffering "counts."

Guy Sinden

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Nov 28, 2020, 4:38:33 AM11/28/20
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What is the point of this unobjective insinuation?  I have been observing for some time now how the debate here is focused on DAC, and is even directed at one person in particular.  

Who is talking about evaluating suffering? That is ultimately the responsibility of the person concerned and nobody else.

When a person has experienced free and informed consent, this person should be free and able to make an own decisions.

Is a desired aesthetic operation a mutilation?

Based on which criteria would you want to prohibit body modifications?

Steven Barendregt

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Nov 29, 2020, 4:41:07 PM11/29/20
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Answer my question.

Johan Nyman

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Nov 29, 2020, 5:26:50 PM11/29/20
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"Indeed, female sexual mutilation is often prohibited regardless of age (this is the case in French legislation for example, and I suppose it is the same in other countries in Europe)".

This is not the case, as supposed above, in every European country. In Finland the law under which FGM and MGM falls (Criminal code, bodily injury, [aggravated] assault)  is both sex neutral and age neutral. As a side-step from that, though, the High Court has made three precedents regarding MGM (2008:93, 2016:24, 2016:25) stating that if both parents agree on the procedure and it can be found "in the best interest of the [boy] child", then no sentence will be given. However, in the 2016 precedents, the High Court also states that clearer legislation is needed, because it is unsustainable for them to have to keep making decisions on a case-by-case basis. 

Thus, a renewed legislation that clearly mentions genital mutilation (regardless of sex), would not create any problem of "discrimination" as mentioned in the post above, but rather remove the current discrimination of boys that the High Court precedents have created.

References: 

* Criminal code, Chapter 21, section 5 (Assault) and 6 (Aggravated assault), pages 97-98. Unofficial translation by the Ministry of Justice: https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset/1889/en18890039.pdf 

* High Court's press release with summary of the 2016 precedent cases (in Finnish and Swedish only): https://korkeinoikeus.fi/sv/index/ajankohtaista/tiedotteet/2016/korkeinoikeuslinjasipoikienymparileikkaamiseenliittyvaaoikeuskaytantoa.html 

Regards,
Johan Nyman

dallieresophie

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Nov 30, 2020, 1:29:22 PM11/30/20
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Bonjour à tous


Johan c'est excellent comme information !

Est-ce que tu as la possibilité de savoir ce qu'il en est des autres pays nordiques ?

Il faudrait même que chaque membre présente la situation dans son pays. Pour la Belgique nous savons que l'interdiction des FGM est à vie.

Johan as-tu un avocat spécialisé en droit européen qui pourrait nous démêler la position qu'aurait l'Europe avec des lois différentes suivants les âges ?

Merci d'avoir partagé ce point que nous attendions de connaître.

jean-christophe Lurenbaum

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Nov 30, 2020, 6:20:31 PM11/30/20
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Thank you Johan for taking the time for this well-documented answer (from which it is fortunately understandable that the situation regarding the authorisation of ritual male circumcision remains very fragile). To make sure that we fully understand the situation in Finland, is it possible to provide these legal clarifications about "In Finland the law under which FGM and MGM falls (Criminal code, bodily injury, [aggravated] assault) is both sex neutral and age neutral".

Does a woman have the right to "genital autonomy", i.e.:
  • Does a woman have the right to carry out her own "excision", either by using a third party surgeon or even by operating herself? According to the Criminal Code alone, chapter 21 s5+s6, this seems possible (because there is no "assault"). If so, is it possible at any age or is there an age limit? 
  • Does a woman have the right to have "cosmetic surgery" on her sexual organs (labiaplasty for example)? If so, is this possible at any age or is there an age limit?
What is Intakt Norden's position on "genital autonomy":
  • against "genital autonomy", i.e. the right to modify one's sexual organs without medical reason (but with full consent)
  • for "genital autonomy", i.e. the right to be able to circumcise oneself (male or female), but with an age limit. If so, what is the age limit?

Johan Nyman

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Nov 30, 2020, 6:52:22 PM11/30/20
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Thank you Jean-Christophe for your follow-up question to my answer.

 

While there are some matters within ICASM/The Bodyguards that keep being unanswered and difficult for me to grasp at the moment, this particular line of dialogue is straightforward, which I highly appreciate.

 

Thus, I shall do what I can to answer your questions. To give you a qualified answer to the first one, I will need to consult an expert within law, given that I am merely a layman myself.

 

I will get back,

 

Best regards,

 

Johan

Simon ten Kate

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Dec 1, 2020, 8:56:48 AM12/1/20
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The Netherlands regards FGM as a form of child abuse. Anyone who performs FGM or cooperates with the circumcision of a girl is punishable and can be prosecuted. That hardly ever happens. There was one criminal case in the Netherlands in 2009, but the suspect was acquitted for lack of evidence.
There are no specific FGM laws. There are several laws about abuse (art. 300-304, 307, 308) and because FGM is being regarded as child abuse  they apply. Although people often say that we have a FGM law, in reality we don't. Just like their are no specific laws that deal with harm inflicted on the right arm, the left arm etc. 
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (a Somalian FGM survivor an ex-parliamentarian) raised the issue of male genital mutilation in 2013. The minister of justice replied that he doesn't regard Male Genital Mutilation as abuse or mutilation. The legislation that is used to make FGM criminal is not gender specific. So it's is a matter of qualification. FGM is abuse, Male Genital Mutilation is not seen as abuse. Women can chose to have a labiaplasty from the age of 16 if they suffer from what they have. 
If it is be possible for an adult woman to have her genitals mutilated (like Fuambai Sia Ahmadu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuambai_Ahmadu)  without prosecution of the the person who performs it, is not clear. I asked the organisation Pharos about this but they don't reply to this specific question. 
You can say FGM is illegal because it is seen as abuse, Male Genital Mutilation is not illegal because it's not seen as abuse. 
Intact Nederland promotes a ban on Male Genital Mutilation because that's what we effectively have for FGM, and that's what the general public understands to be the case with FGM. To make it illegal, Male Genital Mutilation has to be regarded as abuse and mutilation so the existing legislation about abuse applies to MGM as well. 
IMO there won't be  problem with equality, there is now. People who want to circumcise girls bring this up, they argue:  "why can boys be circumcised but girls can not?"

jean-christophe Lurenbaum

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Dec 1, 2020, 2:24:49 PM12/1/20
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Very interesting, thank you Simon for these explanations. One might think that the legal situation on FGM is clear all over the world, given the institutional communication that has existed for decades, but even in the Netherlands this is far from being the case:

  • “Women can chose to have a labiaplasty from the age of 16 if they suffer from what they have”: note that the criterion of "suffering" is used.

  • “If it is be possible for an adult woman to have her genitals mutilated [] without prosecution of the the person who performs it, is not clear”: is there a clear legal difference between "labiaplasty" and "modification of a sexual organ carried out on an individual with their free and informed consent, even without medical necessity"? In other words, would "labiaplasty", which can be obtained from the age of 16, allow such a girl to obtain a genuine "excision" or any other traditional practice of modifying sexual organs?

It should be noted that it is the age of 12 that is mentioned in this interview reported by Simon a few weeks ago, in apparent contradiction with the age of 16, which would mean that there is a derogatory law for "labiaplasty":  Meerderheid kinderurologen tegen jongensbesnijdenis (English subtitles), 2018, 11’ - Tom de Jong, pediatric urologist, 8’45 “The vast majority of Dutch paediatric urologists thinks you shouldn’t circumcise children under 12 years of age if there is no good medical reason. [] We think that a child should be able to decide about alterations on his own body. And in the Netherlands we have a law that says you can do that when you are over 12 years of age.”

We know that French-speaking organisations fighting against FGM in France and Belgium (the 2 GAMS, and perhaps in Germany) are very annoyed by the fact that:

  • FGM are forbidden whatever the age of the woman

  • but that "cosmetic surgery of the genital organs" is admitted even under 18 years of age, which contradicts the law banning FGM and allows it to be circumvented. As far as male circumcision is concerned, this is a problem that we must anticipate in order to prevent it from happening. Probably a common solution will have to be found for FGM and male circumcision to avoid the objection of gender discrimination. Moreover, this double standard between "FGM" and "cosmetic surgery" leads to a growing criticism of the fight against FGM, which its said to be a "neo-colonialist" approach.

Same question than for Intakt Norden, what is Intact Nederland's position on "genital autonomy":

  • against "genital autonomy", i.e. the right to modify one's sexual organs without medical reason (but with full consent)

  • for "genital autonomy", i.e. the right to be able to circumcise oneself (male or female), but with an age limit. If so, what is the age limit?


jean-christophe Lurenbaum

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Dec 1, 2020, 6:40:04 PM12/1/20
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Until we have a clearer picture of the situation in Finland concerning "female circumcision" / "cosmetic surgery of the sexual organs" (age limit or not), here is the situation in France.

In 1983, the Court of Cassation recognised the criminal nature of sexual mutilation, ruling that the removal of the clitoris was indeed mutilation within the meaning of the French Criminal Code, which means that excision is prohibited regardless of age. There is no specific provision condemning excision, which falls under Article 222 of the Criminal Code relating to voluntary violence. Since that time, France has been one of the most active countries in Europe in terms of trials and convictions of FGM.

Lawyer Linda Weil-Curiel is famous for having been one of the first to campaign against the practice of excision in France and to obtain the criminal conviction of excisers and parents. This "star" of the FGM happens to be the first person to become a "public supporter" of Droit au Corps when the collective was created. Not only is she a facilitator at the Commission for the Abolition of Sexual Mutilation (in fact about FGM only), but she is also the general secretary of the Ligue du Droit International des Femmes (International Women's Law League), created in 1983 by feminist superstar Simone de Beauvoir. This shows that it is quite possible to collaborate between the cause and leading feminists fighting against FGM, provided that the approach is respectful of feminism.

On the other hand, "cosmetic surgery of the sexual organs" is possible. The case of Canada is interesting since we are in a culture similar to the European culture. In the case of “Female Genital Cosmetic Surgery” (FGSC), Canadian courts have rejected the notion of “age of majority” to define the age at which a person is able to give consent: “The Common Law recognizes the mature minor as a person who is able to understand the nature and consequences of the proposed treatment. When a minor is considered “mature”, parental consent is not required for FGSC interventions.”

Droit au Corps' position is the right to “genital autonomy”, BUT in the context of a public debate on "the conditions of consent". It is important to note that this public debate could very well lead to the conclusion that "the conditions of consent are never met" for certain practices, and that female or male circumcision (or cosmetic surgery of the sexual organs) would never be allowed, for example if it were recognised that social pressure is always too strong and suffering is likely to occur. This principled limitation on the right to dispose of one's body is accepted by DaC, which explains why in footnote 6 of its Vision, as is the case in some countries for prostitution or street drugs.  

Simon ten Kate

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Dec 4, 2020, 8:01:23 AM12/4/20
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Intact Nederland doesn't have a specific position on 'Genital Autonomy' because it's not legal term. By using it in addition to the legal term Bodily Autonomy you make a distinction or at least a separation between the genitals and the rest of the body as if it's another area with a different status, value and rights. That's something that many people regrettably do already; they are appalled by the idea of cutting off  fingers but see no problem if you cut off the foreskin, so they make a distinction too. The challenge of intactivism is to break down that distinction.

Intact Nederland is about ending the practice of cutting minors (<18), because it is an assault on a child, child abuse and a violation of their bodily integrity. Those are words that are used in current Dutch legislation about abuse, but they are not yet not applied to the cutting of boys. 
Article 11 of our legislation: "Everyone shall have the right to inviolability of his person, without prejudice to restrictions laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. In the Netherlands everyone can decide for himself what happens to his or her body, whether medical treatment is performed and whether prescribed medication is taken." Genital cutting of children obviously is a violation of this right to bodily autonomy.
Whether or not consenting adults should be able to get assistance of medical professionals to mutilate their, tongue, ears, penis or vagina is another debate. 

I can imagine that non-intactivists presume that fighting for Genital Autonomy (it's a personal choice) is about the right to modify your genitals more than saving children from genital mutilation. 

David Balashinsky writes in his blog 'Intactivism and feminism' : "When intactivists look at male genital mutilation, we view it within a certain philosophical and moral framework that requires us to condemn it because the act itself is morally incompatible with the underlying (or overarching) moral framework. When proponents (or those who simply have never questioned whether male genital mutilation is consistent with the moral framework to which they probably already subscribe) look at genital mutilation of boys, it is not that they are not seeing what we are seeing but that they have placed forced infant male circumcision conceptually outside of the moral framework that governs most other aspects of their beliefs and conduct. It is as though male genital mutilation exists for them in another dimension beyond the purview of the principles of bodily integrity and basic human rights. "
So by using expressions that don't even exist in their moral framework it will be less likely that they will see male genital mutilation for what it is.   

 Regarding the 12 year age limit mentioned by Tom de Jong:
"And in the Netherlands we have a law that says you can do that when you are over 12 years of age.” Tom de Jong is referring to the fact that children over 12 have the right to object to a medical procedure. He mentioned that to make a statement that even under 12 years old urologists don't want to perform circumcisions. These rules aren't to give children the right to object, it doesn't mean if they want something done it will be done, the parents still can stop that. https://patientenrechten.patientenfederatie.nl/kinderen-hun-ouders-en-patientenrechten/hoofdstuk-4/

Regarding labiaplasty, clinics are not allowed to perform it when girls are under 18, earlier I found 16 year earlier on a  webpage but that's not right. 
"At what age can a labia correction be performed?
Cosmetic year corrections only from eighteen and must also be regarded as necessary by the plastic surgeon. This is always discussed in detail during a consultation with the plastic surgeon." 

dorthethrige

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Dec 6, 2020, 12:09:20 PM12/6/20
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Intact Denmark's proposal of an 18 year age limit for circumcision of healthy childen includes both male, femaie and intersex children. There is absolutely no discrimination between the genders as is it all-inclusive.

Some people have argued "but then women above 18 are no longer protected against genital mutilation". In Intact Denmark we are pro equality between the sexes, both for children and adults. Why should a woman (above the age of 18) that - for whatever reason -  wants to become circumcised not have the right to have the surgery carried out?

Intact Denmark did foresee that this quesiton about inequality/discrimination could come up and be used against us. Some years ago Intact Denmark therefore asked the Danish Parliament if there were any (inequality) issues with our proposal. We received a formal written answer confirming that there are no inequality issues associated with our 18 year age limit proposal.

Why all this focus on "religious rights", Jean-Christophe, Sophie ???

Religious rights are INDIVIDUAL rights. An individual has NO RIGHTS to exercise his/her own religious belief/rights on anybody else's body, but your own. This include their own children! Do also remember that human rights are above religious rights.

Why is the French delegation pushing the FGM agenda so hard that they end up operating against childrens rights to an intact body?  Can we focus on the children, please?

Best regards,
Dorthe Thrige, Intact Denmark

jean-christophe Lurenbaum

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May 15, 2021, 12:19:49 PM5/15/21
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Age of consent for transgender surgery

See this interesting post by Tim Hammond, apparently validated by Brian Earp, who argues for an age of consent prior to legal majority (18 years) for body modifications including surgery for transgender people.

What is the age limit in Denmark for a young transgender to request and obtain such body modifications, including on sexual organs?

jean-christophe Lurenbaum

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May 17, 2021, 6:34:07 PM5/17/21
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Freedom of religion

International Convention on the Rights of the Child is very clear on the right of children about religion: article 14 "States Parties shall respect the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion" + article 30 "a child [...] shall not be denied the right, in community with other members of his or her group, to enjoy his or her own culture, to profess and practise his or her own religion". If I understand correctly, according to the 1989 Convention on the Rights of the Child, a child should therefore have the right to be circumcised if he is Jewish or Muslim (at which age?). Is this really what the coalition wants?

Le mercredi 25 novembre 2020 à 11 h 35 min 38 s UTC-5, jean-christophe Lurenbaum a écrit :
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