Candidates for the expansion of ICASM

[Simon ten Kate]

Suggest Candidates here

[ICASM Network]

Genital Autonomy Society - USA - John Adkison applying for membership

[Simon ten Kate]

Lloyd Schofield, I know him personally, knowledgeable, veteran intactivist, president of the Bay area Intactivists and leading figure in  San Francisco Ballot Initiative to ban circumcision of children in the City of San Francisco 2011.

See https://youtu.be/k36575QbaVY

https://www.facebook.com/sfmgmbill/videos/

In 2019 he speeched in Cologne at the WWDOGA: https://youtu.be/reNm0UQgi64

https://www.facebook.com/pg/sfmgmbill/

https://www.facebook.com/lloyd.schofield

Intactivists Discuss Strategy for Ending the Circumcision Nightmare: https://youtu.be/DtuOm7hCFZo

[Simon ten Kate]

Norm Cohen, Executive Director of NOCIRC of Michigan

CIRCUMCISION: A RABBI'S SON SPEAKS OUT: https://youtu.be/erm5xHO3o7s

https://youtu.be/sHEw0oDuquE?t=933

http://www.nocircofmi.org/Home.aspx

I have never met him but I see him as a candidate.

[Droit au Corps Association]

We think it is important that ICASM be extended to include female sexual mutilation from the outset, to avoid giving the impression of a nocirc "sect" with a risk of ghettoization on male circumcision alone.

We propose to initiate contacts with each other in this direction, for example by starting with the public signatories of the Appeal for Debate:

https://www.droitaucorps.com/appeal-to-open-a-public-debate-on-the-conditions-for-consent-to-circumcision#org-excision

https://www.droitaucorps.com/appeal-to-open-a-public-debate-on-the-conditions-for-consent-to-circumcision#pers-excision

In the case of "ancestral" circumcision, of which excision is the mirror, it seems interesting to us to launch "joint" prevention plans for female and male circumcision. Two actors in the fight against excision seem ready to embark on this path, which should be invited prio:

• Ulla Barreto (Deutschland) - Vorsitzende TABU INTERNATIONAL e. V., Koordinatorin Kenia
• Sister Fa site (Sénégal) - rappeuse, initiatrice de Éducation sans excision

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Note that Norm Cohen (USA), Executive Director NOCIRC of Michigan, is among the public signatories of the 2019 Appeal to Debate. In general, the public signatories of this Appeal are likely to be good candidates to join ICASM. 

https://www.droitaucorps.com/appeal-to-open-a-public-debate-on-the-conditions-for-consent-to-circumcision

[Michael Winnel]

I have invited (cc'd ICASM)

USA:

Your Whole Baby: Jen Williams

Brendon Marotta: AC

Blood Stained Men: David Atkinson

Cockfight 

Bonobo 3D - James Loewen

FINLAND:

Tiina -- Sexologist

[Simon ten Kate]

Michael, where can I find ICASM mail? You write that you cc'd to that mail address. 

You invited them to join ICASM and participate in the meeting tonight?

[Simon ten Kate]

Shall I invite Lloyd and Norm to participate tonight and send them ICASM statutes?

[ICASM Network]

icasm....@gmail.com

you can find on the ICASM Portal

[Simon ten Kate]

Thanks, but I was looking for where I can read the mail that Michael wrote, so where is the mail box and is it public?

[ICASM Network]

Sample

Subject: Invitation to Join ICASM (International Coalition For The Abandonment of Sexual Mutilation)

Dear Tiina,

David from 15 Square highly recommended you as a candidate for our newly forming global organisation ICASM. We recently welcomed on board Johan from Intact Norden. 

ICASMs mission is to build a global alliance of strategically focused intactivists dedicated to the alleviation of suffering of children, and to focus on strategy and collective intelligence to enhance the practices of each individual organisation in their domestic marketplace. Additionally ICASM will offer the benefit of its global apparatus for organising events and initiatives.   

1) In order to join, please read and agree to the ICASM Statutes [please give particular attention to Article 2 of the collection of statues]

2) ICASMs first major initiative is the International WWDOGA Symposium May 30-31 via Zoom. Brian Earp and several others have already signed up. Please feel welcome to join as an audience member. Additionally, I realise it's late notice (things have been happening very quickly!) -- but should you have an interest in presenting for 10 or 15mins on your strategy, best practices, and core challenges -- we would be delighted: Symposium Timeslot Selection - Intactivist Strategy Presentations

Regards,

Michael

ICASM Meeting Chairman

Foreskin Revolution Australia

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

see Michael sample: Symposium first + joining ICASM/see statutes

[Simon ten Kate]

Merci

[Simon ten Kate]

FYI: Kennedy Owino Odhiambo, Intact Kenya,

 https://youtu.be/cG5CLK6Rfd4

[Simon ten Kate]

FYI: 

Prince Hillary Maloba, VMMC Experience Project 

ˇhttps://youtu.be/OC1RmdO7ECQ

[Simon ten Kate]

Norm Cohen: Thank you for the invitation, Simon. The focus of my intactivist work is only in Michigan, USA, and while I am interested changing both the strategy and the leadership here in the United States, I have no special expertise to offer to my European allies. I am already too busy to take on anything more. Good luck with your endeavor.

[Simon ten Kate]

Reply from Lloyd: 

Thanks for the outreach and information about this organization. I received your email also. I would be happy to become a member and work together to end HGM - human genital mutilation. Cheers!

[Simon ten Kate]

If I send a link to the documents, are new candidates able to open it? Should they be added somewhere to grant access? 

[dallieresophie]

It’s OK Simon

[ICASM Network]

yes, everything is in radical transparency (ARTICLE 8 - RADICAL TRANSPARENCY of the statutes - what is radical transparency), whether it is the portal, the google-group forum or the google-documents - be careful what you write! but when data is confidential (personal data for example), radical transparency allows the use of restricted access spaces

[Michael Winnel]

RESPONSE FROM BLOOD STAINED MEN:

David Atkinson	04:11 (15 hours ago)
to Michael

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the invitation!  This does seem like an interesting project, since I know very few intactivists from outside North America.
The Bloodstained Men Board of Directors deliberated for a couple of days, and there was not a consensus among the board members to join the ICASM as an organization at this time. Perhaps in the future, with more notice, we'd be ready to participate.

Brother K, specifically, recommended that I pass along this statement: "...any implicit support for Foregen makes BSM less likely to involve ourselves. I certainly will NOT under any circumstances align myself with any group that supports Foregen in any way."

As for myself, if I have some free time this weekend I might be interested to "join as an audience member", so feel free to send me the zoom info and I might jump on the conference call at some point.

Thanks again!
David

On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 4:49 AM Michael Winnel <in...@foreskinrevolution.com> wrote:

Dear David/Blood Stained Men, I'd like to formally invite BSM to join the exciting newly emergent ICASM. Given I only have your email could you please pass this onto Brother K and the team. If interested, I think you would make an excellent point person for BSM at the ICASM.

ICASMs mission is to build a global alliance of strategically focused intactivists dedicated to the alleviation of suffering of children, and to focus on strategy and collective intelligence to enhance the practices of each individual organisation in their domestic marketplace. Additionally ICASM will offer the benefit of its global apparatus for organising events and initiatives.

1) In order to join, please read and agree to the ICASM Statutes (please give particular attention to Article 2 of the collection of statues). 2) ICASMs first major initiative is the International WWDOGA Symposium May 30-31 via Zoom. Brian Earp, Intaction, Mogis, Droit Au Corps, 15 Square & others have already signed up. Please feel welcome to join as an audience member/s. Additionally, I realise it's late notice (things have been happening very quickly!) -- but should BSM have an interest in presenting for 10 or 15mins on your strategy, best practices, and core challenges -- we would be delighted: Symposium Timeslot Selection - Intactivist Strategy Presentations. Regards, Michael ICASM Facilitator  Foreskin Revolution Australia

[Simon ten Kate]

Marilyn Milos from Genital Autonomy America.

[ICASM Network]

copy-paste Michael suggestion: 

Alon Sivroni, 2010, Israel, Israeli Street Activist dedicated to protecting the wellbeing of Jewish Children

https://en.intactiwiki.org/index.php/Alon_Sivroni

[Michael Winnel]

I have sent Alon an invite (he is pre-validated)
-------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Invitation to Join ICASM (International Coalition For The Abandonment of Sexual Mutilation)

Dear Alon,

ICASMs mission is to build a global alliance of strategically focused intactivists dedicated to the alleviation of suffering of children, and to focus on strategy and collective intelligence to enhance the practices of each individual organisation in their domestic marketplace. Additionally ICASM will offer the benefit of its global apparatus for organising events and initiatives.   

1) In order to join, please read and agree to the ICASM Statutes (please give particular attention to Article 2 [Aim & Purpose] & 8 [Radical Transparency] of the collection of statues).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SwocHjIhtidhn6fmC7VZhOWS_vsy8rX2kj_ep4Uz03M/edit

2) ICASMs first major initiative was the International WWDOGA Symposium May 30-31 via Zoom. Brian Earp, Intaction, Mogis, Droit Au Corps, 15 Square, Foreskin Revolution & others presented on strategy, best practices, and core challenges. The symposium was a wonderful success and we look forward to doing more in the future. Your work in Israel is such that you have unique and specific insight, and would be a valued contributor to the ICASM community. We all have so much to gain by working together. 

[Droit au Corps Association]

We must not delay in opening ICASM to organisations fighting against female genital mutilation, intersex and transgender, otherwise ICASM will appear as a somewhat worrying nocirc "cult"! Here is a list of organizations that Droit au Corps intend to contact (in collaboration with MoGIS), many of which are signatories to the Appeal for Debate:

Intersex et trans

TRANS INTER action - Association pour les personnes trans et intersexes (France)

Intersex-Belgium (Belgique)

Intersekse Vlaanderen (België)

Projekt 100% MENSCH - für die Gleichstellung - LGBTIQA* (Deutschland)

Organisation internationale des intersexués OII - Vincent Guillot (France) - cofondateur de l’

Laboratoire des Transidentités (LDT) Maud-Yeuse Thomas (France) - co-fondatrice du 

Intersekse Vlaanderen Thierry Bosman  et Emmanuelle Verhagen (Belgique)

Libres d’être Françoise Lucas-Griffon (France) - militante intersexe, animatrice de 

female circumcision

SOS Africaines en Danger - contre l’excision et le mariage forcé (France)

TERRE DES FEMMES - Menschenrechte für die Frau e.V. (Deutschland)

TABU INTERNATIONAL e. V. - Abschaffung der genitalen Verstümmelung (Deutschland)

Maison des femmes - Ghada Hatem (France) - gynécologue-obstétricienne, médecin-chef

Éducation sans excision - Sister Fa site (Sénégal) - rappeuse, initiatrice

Fédération nationale Groupe pour l'Abolition des Mutilations Sexuelles GAMS (France) Facebook - Fédération GAMS

Groupe pour l'Abolition des Mutilations Sexuelles - Belgique (GAMS-Belgique)

Excision, parlons-en ! - Facebook - Excision, parlons-en !

Stratégies Concertées de lutte contre les Mutilations Génitales Féminines-Belgique (SC-MGF)

[Michael Winnel]

I agree with DaC Re: opening ICASM to organisations fighting against female genital mutilation, intersex and transgender, therefore, is the next step:

•Have the "Onboarding" CI confirm an "intake" method? E.g. which might involve each new proposed group having either an intake interview or a "champion' who vets them?

We must ensure we induct new members who agree and can embody the "path of Compassion". To accidentally intake an opponent (opposes compassion strategy & alleviation of suffering) would be a disaster for both ICASM and the children we serve.

Michael

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Good idea to develop the CI "Onboarding" as suggested by MW.

I propose to put in this CI the standard invitation messages or any other standard message on this subject, so as to manage them more easily: improve them as the months go by, translate them into the necessary languages.

[dallieresophie]

Could we talk about the reason for inviting transgender people? I know that everyone does not understand why because the regulations are different in the countries.

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

In some countries, in order to obtain gender reassignment, including medical treatment to accompany sex reassignment, the transgender person is required by law to undergo sterilization, which therefore amounts to genital mutilation since it is not necessarily desired by the transgender person. 

[luke.a...@gmail.com]

A transgender person may (and some do, see https://sexchangeregret.com/) regard the voluntary so-called "gender affirmation" or "reassignment" or "sex change" as genital mutilation. Unfortunately, the experiences of these victims are usually ignored or dismissed by the mainstream trans advocacy groups. The mainstream position is so backwards that it considers castration and mutilation of transgender adults (and chemical interventions in children) to be a human right to health care (as treatments for gender dysphoria).

Unless the intention is to reduce the suffering of the people who claim to be harmed by the various techniques of "gender transition", then are we truly on the path of compassion?

Some men's rights groups promote circumcision of baby boys. Just because a group is made of men and claims to support men doesn't mean that it does. The same is true for transgender groups. Transgender victims of genital mutilation are only being represented by rare organizations like Sex Change Regret. Mainstream trans advocacy groups seem to react with hostility to dissenting opinions about transitioning. I am not familiar with the particular groups suggested above, but I do oppose any group that denies the mutilation inherent to surgical transition of transgender people, even if that group is made of transgender people and claims to advocate for transgender people.

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Merci Luke pour cette explication très éclairante !

Le samedi 20 juin 2020 18:53:51 UTC-4, luke.a...@gmail.com a écrit :

A transgender person may (and some do, see https://sexchangeregret.com/) regard the voluntary so-called "gender affirmation" or "reassignment" or "sex change" as genital mutilation. []

[Simon ten Kate]

As I understand the only reason to invite transgender groups is because transgenders are forced to undergo sterilization? I wonder if people understand. 

ICASM is not about transgender rights, will this not dilute the message, should it not be focussed on sexual mutilation of minors?  

All human rights issues and organisations are candidates because of suffering in a way. 

I agree with Luke btw that also adults can be victim of genital mutilation. They may feel pressured, they are victim of doctors that provide it. 

It gets complicated, maybe we should discuss this online. Consent seems to be the main argument in intactivism, a child can't consent. If you drop that argument what will be the most convincing argument? 

If it's about circumcision I don't like "His body his choice" because it assumes it's an option, it's something that iOS totally fine choosing it as an adult. Many people would never say that if it's about any other amputation, like "you want to cut out your tongue? Sure it's your body your right" 

[Simon ten Kate]

Doctors Opposing Circumcision

[Simon ten Kate]

Attorneys for the Rights of the Child  

https://www.arclaw.org

[Simon ten Kate]

Nurses for the Rights of the Child

childrightsnurses.org/index.php/about-us/

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

as experts 

. LLEWELLYN DAVID J. (USA @ 1950-) trial attorney and civil mediator, medical malpractice, particularly in the areas of genital injury, circumcision  

.  Marilyn Milos  

as organization

. Genital Autonomy America (GA-America USA 1985/2016 wikipedia WWDOGA) ex National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centres (NOCIRC USA 1985 Marilyn Milos)

Le dimanche 17 mai 2020 à 17 h 05 min 49 s UTC-4, simonw...@gmail.com a écrit :

Suggest Candidates here

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

are there any opinions to invite Jews Against Circumcision (JAC USA member WWDOGA) 

here is the video WWDOGA 2020 - David Balashinsky

[Simon ten Kate]

What do you'll think about Doctors Opposing Circumcision?

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Doctors Opposing Circumcision is extremely important as it is probably the best center of general expertise on penile health in the world today. Following John Adkison's proposal, 1 invitation email was sent to DOC (John Geisheker) by ICASM on June 29th: surprisingly there has been no response so far. 

We need to take stock within ICASM of the people who have the best relationship with DOC to make a successful contact. Droit au Corps could do this since we have been working with DOC over the last few months, DOC has even signed the Appeal To Debate on Circumcision, but maybe David L would be even better, or YWB and others in the US.

We need to talk at the next meeting about a first operational ICAMS project to be launched, consisting of launching the "penis health" axis by providing ICASM with a scientific committee and an international network of health professionals. One of the first concrete actions would be to obtain the correction by the WHO of the ICD on the code "phimosis". Mohamed Fahmy is willing to take over the piloting of this "penis health" axis of ICASM, which is a huge asset for our cause. But the next priority is to set up the collaboration between Mohamed and DOC!

[Michael Winnel]

Correspondence between myself and DOC today, and that they feel in good company with ICASM, but just need to check their commitments:

John Geisheker <info@doctorsopposingcircumcision.org>

14:31 (5 hours ago)

to me, info

Dear Mr Winnel,

I'm out here, God knows, though I have been offshore on my sailboat and out of Internet /mobile phone range for some time lately. I return on July 30 to landlubber civilisation.

It sounds like DOC would be in good company at ICASM, and we will consider --carefully-- the invite you sent.

I need to explore our commitment further and will do so.

John Geisheker

Director,

DOC

Seattle

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 6:10 PM Michael Winnel <info@doctorsopposingcircumcision.org> wrote:

Name   Michael Winnel Email   ...winnel@gmail.com Subject   Our growing Intactivist Global Coalition - Getting in touch with John G Comment/Question   G'Day, I left a VM on your number just now, and need to get in touch with John G or someone from DOC regarding the invitation I sent from ICASM a few weeks back to join our new fast growing International Coalition for the Abandonment of Sexual Mutilation, which Your Whole Baby, Intaction, David Llewellyn etc have joined. Please get in touch, thanks! in...@foreskinrevolution.com ...winnel@gmail.com +61-477-939-686 Regards, Michael Winnel ICASM Facilitator Foreskin Revolution Director

[ICASM Network]

Email received from John Adkison today: "I am forwarding this [Agenda of the next ICASM meeting] to Carter Steinhoff.  There's a group called "ForeFront" that primarily communicates on a Discord server.  He's interested in Forefront being a part of ICASM."

[foreskinr...@gmail.com]

From Guy Sinden: "Insa Onken, an Arte journalist, might be interested in joining ICASM as an observer."

[Simon ten Kate]

Good work Michael, building bridges across the globe!

[ICASM Network]

Conclusion of today ICASM meeting, ok to invite those organizations:

• Ben Shalem (Israel 1997 Rafi Rosen & Rami Yovel intactiwiki member WWDOGA) Publish information about circumcision damage in public, legal help to parents - member of the International Committee of the Red Cross

• Israeli Association Against Genital Mutilation

• Kahal (Israel 2000 Ronit Tamir member WWDOGA) help parents to find information and get support when considering not to circumcise their baby

• Eran Sadeh, founder of Gonnen Al Ha-Yeled (“Protect the Child” member WWDOGA) > video 2012

[Foreskin Revolution]

Moving forward, I propose a new system whereby one must propose new members and gain approval by the group before emailing or contacting the proposed person/group. This way, if someone in the ICASM has information on why a certain person/group is not appropriate, then we can save a lot of time (rather than having to "backpedal" if we have already begun contact and started discussions). 

My proposal is simple:

1) All new member proposals to be made here, in this forum thread (Candidates for the expansion of ICASM)

2) If after 1 week, no objections have been raised, one may go ahead and:
(i) Place new proposal in the Agora
(ii) Send pending member the official invite email (Onboarding CI templates)

Note: Once the Agora is published, proposals sit in the Agora for one month, at the end of which - providing there are no objections - the new groups are formally inducted as members. 

The core concept here is for members to apply discernment & skillful means in regards to communications with potential new members, given the fact objections may arise from within the ICASM before induction. 

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

From a purely organisational point of view, it is a central issue to propose to add rules to the current rules of procedure. In the present case, a quick assessment of the advantages and disadvantages seems to indicate that it is better to avoid adding to ICASM's bureaucracy. This recommendation is detailed in this post.

[Foreskin Revolution]

JCL's recommendation is an excellent improvement on my proposal, and I believe it resolves the matter. Nothing to do. Thank you, and bravo!

[Simon ten Kate]

I don't understand the procedure.  I liked how I thought we did it so far.

1. You add a candidate to this conversation with some background information, links, personal ties, your relation with the organisation if applicable.

2. In the next meeting we discuss any proposals that were made since the last meeting, let the one that did the proposal tell something about. (every meeting has this item on the agenda)

3. Vote

4. If agreed an invitation will be send.

If we do it all in documents and no live talk it, I am afraid people will miss it completely or don't bother to explain their recommendation or objection.

I think the automatic acceptance after a week is not desirable. 

[Simon ten Kate]

To add to the above,  this may be an encouragement and a reason to attend the meetings. In absence one can still comment on the proposal in this conversation although it doesn't count as a vote. 

I know the Agora is not used in my suggested procedure. 

[Simon ten Kate]

I responded to quick, this may be better:

1. You add a candidate to this conversation with some background information, links, personal ties, your relation with the organisation if applicable.

2. In the next meeting we discuss any proposals that were made since the last meeting, let the one that did the proposal tell something about. (every meeting has this item on the agenda)

3. Vote

4. Place new proposal in the Agora

5. After validation an invitation will be send.

My objection to do new member proposals only in the documents, here and the Agora, makes it impersonal. I like to know a bit more about who is joining, what are the connections etc.

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Simon's point seems a good one: " My objection to do new member proposals only in the documents, here and the Agora, makes it impersonal. I like to know a bit more about who is joining, what are the connections etc." 

Maybe a candidate organization (or expert) should come to a meeting to present itself so that it is possible to have an exchange with the ICASM members. But in this case, it means that you have to send him an invitation (to come to a meeting) before going through the Agora. That said, there are some fairly obvious cases where this may not be necessary (Marilyn Milos, Steven Svoboda...). It is undoubtedly necessary to admit a certain flexibility and to show common sense.

What is certain is that any member who feels that they don't have enough information about a candidate can block it in the Agora.

Postscript: the technique of decision-making by "voting" poses many problems, which explains why this technique is increasingly challenged for the functioning of modern democracies (see for example the technique of the "citizens' assembly", which is based more on "the best arguments" than "opinions" and tends to replace the citizens' vote): it is better to avoid "vote" it as much as possible and to prefer "consent", a technique that puts pressure on the best arguments to emerge

[ICASM Network]

From Dan Strandjord today "Our group, Colorado ABC will have a meeting later this month (or maybe, September). I'll ask if they want to be officially a member organization of ICASM."

[dallieresophie]

Hello

Qui parmi vous connait Tiina Vilponen ou les membres de sexpo ?

ICASM pourrait leur écrire pour 2 choses :

- trouver des urologues pour un meeting

- les inviter à nous rejoindre

[foreskinr...@gmail.com]

1) Sophie, I wrote to her to join and also attend the symposium back in May, to no response on email. The best course of action would be to get her colleague, David/15-square to phone her and bring it to her attention. 

2) I wish to explore the idea of Travis Pangburn, of Pangburn Philosophy, in relation to the ICASM, based on his intactivist writings, although I know nothing of him personally. I say explore because he still seems a touch adversarial in his intellectual approach. Thoughts?

2min read - https://www.thewarofideas.org/post/i-declare-ideological-war-on-ben-shapiro-infant-circumcision

10min read - https://www.thewarofideas.org/post/circumcision-and-the-failure-of-our-priests

[Simon ten Kate]

Michael, 

"Circumcision and the Failure of our Priests" is written by Jack Fleck, is that the same person as Travis Pangburn?

He tweeted about a new book that he wrote with Gregory Malchuk. "The Intactivist Manifesto"

More information: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F3TVV9G/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_f4pnFbWTYSYRN 

There is much to keep up with. 

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Looks like Travis Pangburn and Jack Fleck aren't the same person.

In a strategy of building a network of "lateral allies", Travis Pangburn is relevant given his address book. For example, he has access to Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, personalities with whom we could coordinate communication plans. A simple and effective way to build a network of lateral allies is to offer them to sign the Appeal To Debate, if possible an Appeal To Debate that would be promoted by ICASM rather than only by Droit au Corps, in order to be more credible and to have more reach.

For example, Richard Dawkins and/or Sam Harris are members or in link with many organizations that we have an interest in making them "lateral allies": 

- Richard Dawkins Foundation

- Humanists UK (vice-president)

- Center for Inquiry

- Secular Coalition of America  

and links with

- Freedom From Religion Foundation

- Atheist Alliance of America

- Freethought Society

- Quilliam think tank

- Ali A. Rizvi site Pakistani-born Canadian ex-Muslim

Maybe, Michael, you could communicate DaC's Appeal To Debate to Travis Pangburn and ask him if Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris would be willing to publicly sign the Appeal, especially as part of the international coalition created in 2020. Travis Pangburn has a lot of energy, a major parameter for activism, we should see how to give him a place in ICASM, perhaps if he became a member of a nocirc organization in North America that is itself a member of ICASM?

About 

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Shapiro " American conservative political commentator, media host, and attorney [] grew up in a Jewish family"

- Travis Pangburn speaks with Richard Dawkins “on male genital mutilation”  is 13’50-19’: Note that R. Dawkins has a lot to learn about the comparison between FGM and MSM, as well as the anthropology of genital mutilation: you can't know everything about everything!

[Simon ten Kate]

Jack Fleck is the young guy living in Atlanta who had a YouTube channel with the name Owl Trasher that I followed.

It’s not there any more. His other channell is Box in the black https://youtu.be/q4Q1D9ST48g

[kevinrba...@gmail.com]

If his name was owl trasher previously what confidence should I have that his name is JF?

My suggestion would be to not suggest unverified people. No confirmed identity, no play.

[Simon ten Kate]

This convo is about Travis Pangburn and Jack Fleck was only mentioned as possibly the same person, he is not the same person as Travis.

From there I explored who Jack Fleck is because I am interested in who is writing about Intactivism and like to share that. 

Jack Fleck isn't a real name but he is the same person as 'Owl Trasher' and  'Box in the black' and he wrote a book with Gregory Malchuk. https://www.amazon.com/Intactivist-Manifesto-Jack-Fleck-ebook/dp/B08F3TVV9G/

Jack Fleck was never proposed as a candidate.

[foreskinr...@gmail.com]

1) I agree with considering Travis Pangburn if he agrees to the statutes. (I have personally emailed him in the past to no reply)

2) Inviting Sam Harris, Dawkins and the like is a brilliant idea! I'd be happy to try and reach out to them. 

3) Kevin makes a powerful point about anyone using aliases or using a hidden identity. ICASM ethics require transparency and people showing their real name and face. 

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Does anyone know  Daniel Rold  Next Level Intactivism (NLI USA 2018) group dedicated to supporting all intactivists organizations, individuals, and local groups.

and think he should be told about ICASM? The Appeal To Debate seems to have caught his attention and it is in the logic of bringing together the intactivists and the support that should be given to them.

If NLI is really an organization (more than 1 member), could be member of ICASM

Le dimanche 17 mai 2020 à 17 h 05 min 49 s UTC-4, simonw...@gmail.com a écrit :

Suggest Candidates here

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

it is not reassuring that this 2018 article (on "A Voice for Men" website) which organizes the starting up of NLI (is it the same one than Daniel Rold's?) is written by Elizabeth Hobson, who is a militant notably anti-feminist ("Antifeminist Gender Equality Activist") leader of the English party J4MB whose central positioning is anti-feminism (the chairman Mike Buchanan launched the Anti-Feminism League with a blog, ‘Fighting Feminism’, in January 2012), and of which 1 open letter was unfortunately co-signed by eminent intactivists in 2015:

The letter calling for an end to Male Genital Mutilation, which the newspapers wouldn’t publish  

> Tim Hammond Global Survey on Circumcision Harm, 

> Gregory Boyle, 

> David Smith Genital Autonomy, 

> Patrick Smyth Organiser Men Do Complain, 

> George Denniston Doctors Opposing Circumcision (USA), 

> Linda Massie National Organisation Circumcision Information Resource Centre of Northern Ireland (NOCIRC-NI), 

> Brother K Founder and Co-Director Bloodstained Men, 

> Dr John Warren Retired consultant physician Chair, 15 Square (formerly NORM-UK)  

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

ICASM must quickly expand its membership outside of the intactivist cause, otherwise it may be difficult later on if ICASM is overwhelmingly composed only of intactivists, which may frighten the other genders involved in sexual mutilation.

Concerning female sexual mutilation, the most obvious thing to do is to invite in Germany Terre des Femmes and TABU International, who are both public signatories of the Appeal to open a public debate on the conditions for consent to circumcision (in progress on the side of intaktiv + MOGiS).

On the intersex side, Droit au Corps will soon examine the possibility of a candidacy by the RéFRI:

Réseau Francophone de Recherche sur l’Intersexuation (RéFRI 2019) Janik Bastien-Charlebois (wikipedia) intersexe vice-présidente - sociologue UQAM 

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

A strategic problem appeared during the last ICASM meeting at the end of August. Anti-feminist positions emerged and one ForeFront member even said, "We have pretty much all of the leaders of the men's rights movement on our side. I met Paul Elam and some other prominent MRAs last year and asked them about it.”

As in the case of the nocirc personalities who signed in 2015 the open letter of the English antifeminist party J4MB (The letter calling for an end to Male Genital Mutilation, which the newspapers wouldn’t publish), this type of antifeminist position is likely to annihilate ICASM and more generally the nocirc cause. Let us recall first of all that historically feminism has been built around a double mission:

. the right to have control over one's body, notably through the right to abortion and contraception

. gender equality.

The nocirc cause is in fact a subset of feminism since it aims at exactly this double objective, but restricted to sexual mutilation only. It is therefore particularly absurd to be an antifeminist when one is nocirc. It is not because some women around the world claim to be "feminists" while supporting corporatist positions in favor of women and denying that male circumcision is sexual mutilation, two attitudes contrary to feminism, that one should make the mistake of believing that it is "feminism" that is to be condemned. I have been a feminist activist for a long time (and still), in the 2000s as the confederal administrator of the most important feminist organization in France (the MFPF - Family Planning), and it is in this capacity that I became very actively militant against male circumcision in addition to militating against female circumcision.

Anti-feminism is not compatible with ICASM for 2 reasons:

. on an ethical level, the priority of ICASM is the alleviation of suffering (statutes art.2): while feminism has already done so much good in the world for two centuries but there is still so much to be done (contraception, equality / women's right to vote), being an antifeminist means that we do not give priority to the alleviation of suffering, but on the contrary we side with "conservatism".

. strategically, adopting antifeminist positions or collaborating with antifeminist actors is not only cutting ourselves off from our greatest potential ally, feminists, but also cutting ourselves off from all "progressive" movements: it is the greatest catastrophe that can happen to the cause nocirc in its alliance strategy.

For these reasons, I believe that we cannot approve the entry of ForeFront into ICASM until prominent members of this collective understand the grave mistake of collaborating with antifeminism.

We invite you to look at the list of public signatories of the 2019 Appeal To Debate on Male Circumcision, organizations and personalities, to see the effectiveness of a strategy of alliance between the nocirc cause, the feminist cause and other progressive causes, including actors in the fight against FGM.

[Jordan Arel]

I just discovered a new intactivist doing work on Facebook in Arabic. From what I can tell he seems friendly, genuine, and like a hard worker. I told him I could invite him to the next meeting and he said he would be interested. With this be okay? Here is his Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/%D8%AE%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B0%D9%83%D9%88%D8%B1-105404004638994/

[ICASM Network]

The opinion of our Arabic speaking members can be interesting :

- from FB group Ahmad Al Tariq, Nidal El-Ghattis

ختان الذكور جريمة وافتراء

- Mohamed Fahmy

Is he a member of a nocirc organisation? In which country does he reside?

[dallieresophie]

J'ai pris contact avec Firas et j'échange avec lui depuis hier.

Merci Jordan.

Je l'ai mis en contact avec Ahmad et leur groupe (il a adhéré)

Ahmad et les conversations que j'ai eues sont très rassurantes sur son état d'esprit.

C'est un chrétien palestinien circoncis à 8 jours sous influence de l'environnement et ses parents regrettent maintenant qu'ils ont connaissance de la souffrance de leur fils et d'avoir été trompé surtout que le père avait jusqu'à récemment honte de ne pas l'être.. Ça ressemble à ce que dit Mohamed sur les médecins égyptiens.

Ce me fait penser aussi mais à l'inverse aux juifs d'après guerre qui ne circoncisaient plus leur fils.

La page est toute récente et il est seul.

Je pense que Jordan a raison, nous pouvons l'inviter. 

Je pense que Nidal sera aussi présent.

Si aucune objection, je le fais bien qu'il soit seul ou c'est vraiment compliqué ?

Je pense qu'il faut soutenir les intactivists bienveillants (son cas) du monde arabe où c'est courageux de s'exposer (il ne semble pas conscient que juste son opposition est un problème)

Je découvre qu'il y a d'autres groupes arabes qui sont souvent des personnes qui étaient avant dans le groupe d'Ahmad. Certains semblent vouloir parler uniquement de l'aspect médical et pas du religieux.

[dallieresophie]

Sophie Dallière <dallier...@gmail.com>	00:45 (il y a 2 minutes)
À International

La traduction de l’encadré en arabe : 

"about male circumcision, its effects on males and on females, psychologically and physically, how to heal from it, and its effect on human behavior". 

[Jordan Arel]

Hi Sophie, it sounds like your experience of Firas has been similarly positive as was mine. If you would like to invite him to the next meeting and that is okay with everyone, I would say go ahead. He also let me know that he is independent and from Palestine, but it sounds like you've actually talked more with him than I have.

[ICASM Network]

Viola from  intaktiv has just confirmed that TABU INTERNATIONAL  has agreed to join The Bodyguards: this candidature will be proposed in the next AGORA at the end of October.

[Kyle Schlegel]

Has there been any progress on working with NLI?  I would strongly advise against involving NLI in ICASM.

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Thank you Kyle for this opinion

we were waiting for the opinions of the participants in this forum to find out if it was necessary to go further with NLI Daniel Rold: we have not made any contact and will therefore not do so following your advice - this forum serves exactly that purpose, to share our expertise in order to take the best decisions on whether or not to invite new members, that's what "collective intelligence" is all about.

[ICASM Network]

Here is a copy of the message received from John Adkison today.

-----

I would like to propose that Tim Hammond joins The Bodyguards.  He has been involved for over 3 decades.  Details about his involvement can be found at: https://en.intactiwiki.org/index.php/Tim_Hammond   

-----

At today's TB meeting, Tim indicated that he would like to become a member of the coalition. He seems to prefer the option of becoming a member as an "expert" after Michael presented him with the option of having an organisation of which he is a member become a member.

On Sunday, 17 May 2020 at 17:05:49 UTC-4 simonw...@gmail.com wrote:

Suggest Candidates here

[ICASM Network]

Peter Adler (Attorneys for the Rights of the Child) has just accepted John Adkison's invitation to become an "expert" member of the coalition. You will find the proposal in the Agora of 28 February. Thanks to John

[Timothy John]

Pardon my late entry into this discussion.

I see that in May 2020 Lloyd Schofield was suggested for ICASM membership because of his work on the San Francisco Ballot Initiative to ban infant circumcision. I know that Bay Area Intactivists is an ICASM member, but I do not know if Lloyd specifically has been accepted for membership. However, I do know that ICASM is concerned about being "tainted" by collaborations with those who are perceived as either "antisemitic" or maybe "anti-feminist", etc, etc.

As many of us in the U.S. recall, the ballot initiative website (no longer active, but can still be viewed using the Wayback Machine) included a link to MGMbill.org, which is run by Matthew Hess, and that site linked to Hess' Foreskin Man comics. Despite the ballot initiative bringing greater attention (positive and negative) to the issue of MGC, it did not seem (to me) to be well thought out in terms of process (only the State, in this case California, can regulate medical procedures, not cities) and I know of no attempts that might have been made to build a wider social/political coalition before moving forward with the initiative. In addition to these "Achille's Heels," the website's links to MGMbill.org and then to Foreskin Man generated a lot of media publicity asserting (wrongly, I believe) that the ballot initiative was motivated - in whole or in part - by antisemitism.

I know Lloyd and have no personal objections to him, but if ICASM is concerned about the possibility of "toxic" collaborations, this is perhaps something that should be taken into consideration.

[Omar Ahmed]

Hello all,

I would like to suggest Sami Aldeeb to become part of the coalition. Sami has written a book of over 700 pages which is available in several languages for free and has had over a million pdf downloads in Arabic. He also had a piece published in the front page of a newspaper in Morocco and has made several videos on the topic some of which has dozens of thousands of views. He made attempts to get the WHO to speak out against the genital mutilation of males alongside females and he is also a lawyer with a PHD making him one of the most valuable allies we can have in my opinion.

I took to liberty to contact him and he expressed interest in becoming a part of the coalition.

Omar

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Sami Aldeeb was a public supporter of Droit au Corps until the publication of such Facebook posts (February 2019). 

English translation:

"There are three Nazisms

The mother Nazism which is 

Jewish Nazism

and Islamic Nazism and the

Germanic Nazism which in 

derive"

[Omar Ahmed]

For context, Sami is a Palestinian Christian and has done a lot of his legal work regarding the oppression of religious minorities in the region including in Muslim countries. He uses the term "Jewish Nazism" to refer to the destruction and expulsion of 81% of Palestinian villages by Israel and the refusal to readmit the native population on the basis that they aren't Jewish as well as other Apartheid policies. I was informed that there will be objections but that statement seems to be anti-discrimination to me.

You can find some of his work here:
(PDF) Sami A. Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh: Discriminations contre les non-juifs tant chrétiens que musulmans en Israël | Sami Aldeeb - Academia.edu
(PDF) Sami A. Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh: Non-musulmans en pays d’Islam: cas de l’Egypte | Sami Aldeeb - Academia.edu

Titles in English:
Discrimination against the non Jews whether Christian or Muslim in Israel
Non Muslims in the countries of Islam: The case of Egypt

Omar

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Hello Omar

We agree that Sami Aldeeb is without doubt the world's leading expert on male and female sexual mutilation. His work is phenomenal. Droit au Corps would of course have preferred to keep Sami as a public supporter.

But you will easily understand the mortal risk for an organisation to collaborate with a personality who has had particularly dubious publications on the register of "antisemitism", especially on the subject of male circumcision. And unfortunately, there was not only one dubious post on Facebook (which he seems to have since deleted).

It's commendable that you thought to invite Sami Aldeeb, but you couldn't have known about his controversial posts in French. That's done.

Warmly

jc

[Omar Ahmed]

Hello Jean

A distinction need to be made between antisemitism and antizionism. This document shows that the people of Gaza need 106 trucks to be allowed into Gaza every day to meet their food supply needs but only 65 were allowed in on daily average since the blockade.

"The calculations made in the presentation led to the conclusion that the "daily humanitarian portion" Gaza’s residents needed would require bringing in 106 trucks from Israel five days per week, this in addition to wheat and grains which entered via a conveyor belt at Karni Crossing. In the first year following Hamas’ takeover of the Strip and the tightening of the closure (July 2007 to June 2008), an average of 65 trucks entered each scheduled working day (not including Karni)." - Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines

Just in the last 2 weeks, Israel have destroyed the only covid testing center in Gaza, 17 hospitals and clinics, a water desalination facility that 250,000 people depend on, a sewage pipe that 800,000 people rely on, and they started by destroying the only news building in Gaza presumably to make it harder to report their war crimes (Only the last one came with a warning, the rest were bombed without warning). That's just their recent actions and that's not including what's happening in the west bank or the death toll of innocent civilians, nor does it include discrimination against non-Palistenians (For example, 32,000 non-Jewish migrants including infants are detained without trial in concentration camps that are exempt from legal regulations like the Saharonim Prison. Number of prisoners might be outdated).

If you denounce the Holocaust based on humanitarian reasons because the victims were only allowed 60% of their caloric needs and were deprived of all other basic necessities in concentration camps, then surely denouncing what Israel is doing to 2 million people by only allowing them 60% of their caloric needs and depriving them of all other basic necessities in an open air prison shouldn't be problematic.

All of what has been previously stated is in violation of international law which is not a controversial piece of work, The west bank is internationally acknowledged even by Israel and the US to be Palestinian land making the occupation universally agreed upon to be an occupation even by the occupier.

I believe that Palestinians and Israelis should peacefully coexist under a legitimate non-discriminatory sovereign state which makes me in alignment with Sami on the issue. Even if you disagree I fail to see how that makes either of us antisemitic.

Omar

[Omar Ahmed]

Allow me to state it, there is no dichotomy between being an intactivist and opposing discrimination like Israeli policy and it's very own Nation State Law that is a work of Apartheid ethnic supremacy.

I understand that you come from a place of good intentions Jean, but perhaps you are not familiar with the situation in the middle east. The majority of both Israelis and Jews do not approve of such things and would be on Sami's side.

I do not believe it is a good or practical idea to reject Intactivists based on their political views, politicizing the movement seems to be more risky than to associate with someone who denounces supremacist ideologies (I believe that's all of us). As such I request a reconsideration regarding the inclusion of Sami in the coalition.

Omar

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Hello Omar,

It was a painful decision for the Droit au Corps board in 2019 to be forced to remove Sami Aldeeb from the list of public supporters, as you can imagine. This was obviously not done out of goodwill. This decision was not taken lightly but was based on a thorough analysis of Sami's publications at the time.

But if coalition members wish to admit Sami Aldeeb as an 'expert' member, they are free to do so: I am simply sharing information to inform the decision.

jc

[Omar Ahmed]

Hello Jean,

That is much appreciated, thank you.

Omar

[Timothy John]

I have a great deal of respect for Sami, whom I consider to be a friend and colleague. He is clearly a brilliant scholar and academic who has identified the numerous inconsistencies that are present within Judaism, Islam and Christianity with regard to circumcision, as well as the double standards and hypocrisy of the Western approach to male and female genital cutting.

Sami is very blunt and direct and has a good heart. There is a scene in my video Whose Body, Whose Rights? of Sami with nurse Betty Katz-Sperlich at a NOHARMM protest in which he proudly states that this is "the first time you have a Palestinian and a Jew defending and protecting our children instead of killing them!"

But is he currently active in the genital autonomy movement and is he a strategic thinker? I believe not. If he were to have any role to play in TB, I think it could be as a "consultant", if the TB structure allows for such a position.

From my short time of being involved with TB, I think it may be at the point where it needs to focus less time on inviting new members and experts and more time working with its existing members to create and implement strategies. If we should reach a point where a specific strategy requires the advice and feedback from a specific "consultant" (like Sami) we should then ask for that input.

So inviting Sami to be a consultant, rather than a regularly contributing member or an expert, is something which I could support and I think we could just give him the courtesy of letting him know that as a consultant he would be contacted only an "as needed" basis.

Tim

[wgerndl]

Hello all,

I strongly advise to discuss this issue in detail. From my point of view it seems to be too quick to invite  Sami Aldeeb . Simply because I know too less about him and his background.

We should extremely take care to separate our activities from such political topics like Gaza/Middle East/Israel & Palestine etc. 
This can be potentially dangerous and should be always in our mind. 

Kindly

Werner

[jean-christophe Lurenbaum]

Sami Aldeeb

For those who still have doubts about associating S.Aldeeb with a coalition that seeks to end circumcision, I point out that he is a regular writer for the website Riposte laïque: "Riposte laïque (RL) is a far-right website created in September 2007 that presents itself as belonging to the secular movement. [...] the site devotes most of its articles to openly declared Islamophobia."

I propose that we stop wasting our time on this subject.

[Omar Ahmed]

Hello Tim,

Sami have expressed interests to be a member so I assume he might be willing to be more involved, that said I believe he isn't currently active in the movement so perhaps the position of consultant could be made as an offer to him if he and the coalition wishes so.

I recall him mentioning that he used to attend intactivist rallies in the US where people would be allowed some time to talk and explain their perspective without getting much done and eventually what was being said became repetitive so he stopped going, I don't know exactly what Sami would love to see in the coalition but I am certain that actionism and getting things done is something he would be looking for.

Hey Werner,

I agree with you that we should distance the movement from politics that aren't relevant to intactivism, hence we shouldn't ostracize intactivists because they hold the view that apartheid is bad. I am open to have further discussion but I am not sure what your view is. It seems to more in line of the spirit of seperation of politics if we don't bring up the political views of intactivists and remain focused and professional.

As for his background, Sami is a lawyer who specializes in the rights of religious minorities but is also without doubt the leading expert on the topic of genital cutting as JC has said. He is not someone who is seen as a political figure and hence associating with him would not be seen as espousing his political views, not that I have an issue collaborating with a politician whom I disagree with because once again I believe the movement is and should be apolitical when the political topic is outside the boundaries of intactivism.

Hello Jean,

I believe you are being very uncharitable here, first of all his last article was published in 2018 which means he is far from being a regular writer. It says on the website that is he a "specialist in muslim and Arab rights" which is in alignment with his academic publications, and by simply looking at the titles of the articles he has there he is denouncing human rights violations against muslims as criminal. Now he does disagree with Islam as a religion and as a political movement I will grant you this much, but once again a distinction needs to be made between opposing Islamic theocracy and extremism, and being Islamophobic.

In fact I find it an extraordinary and partisan claim to say that a man who devoted his life to protect the rights of religious minorities especially muslims is in fact Islamophobic. Such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.

I've seen plenty of antisemitism and Islamophobia and this doesn't look like it.

On a side note, I recall you similarly conflated MRA with anti-feminism. Not every view you disagree with is racist. I understand that politics can easily become partisan due to the nature of the topic and the nature of the democratic process if you live in a democracy, and also due to the fact that it is essentially the job of the media to raise chaos and make people develop strong feelings. But it is important to take a step back to analyze and deduce what is what rather than holding on to what you've been told.

Omar

[Omar Ahmed]

I would like to further highlight that there is an inherent contradiction between the claim the Sami is antisemitic and Islamophobic, If he is antisemitic because of the Jewish oppression of muslims then how come he is Islamophobic? This doesn't remove the doubts from your narrative but rather solidifies the doubts as the narrative became contradictory.

Omar

[ICASM Network]

Email from a new organisation:

------------------------------------------------------

Dear Bodyguards team,

We, Manasseh Seidenberg and Ephraim Seidenberg, hereby apply for membership of the newly found Swiss organization prepuce.ch, over which we preside, in ICASM.

Our organization shares the cause for Genital Autonomy, which is why we want to join this movement.

Kind regards

Ephraim Seidenberg, co-president prepuce.ch

Manasseh Seidenberg, co-president prepuce.ch

------------------------------------------------------

This membership will be proposed to the coalition in the next Agora (28 April). If you have any comments or reservations about this membership, you can express them now, without waiting for the last minute of the Agora.