seeking FORTRAN source for the original Intel 8008 tools

[Nigel Williams]

I found INTERP/80 and the PL/M for the 8080 in the usual places, but wondering if anyone has seen the 8008 versions? INTERP/8 and the PL/M compiler, both in FORTRAN that Intel made available in the early days.

thanks.

[Jon Hales]

Hi Nigel

Welcome to Intel-Devsys.

I assume you are referring to a cross-compiler (in successive versions) for 8008 and 8080 - both specific to the Intellec 8 platform. 

Intel manual 98-103 (8080 PL/M Compiler Operators Manual, 1975) begins: "This manual describes the operation of the INTEL 8080 PL/M Cross Compiler. The compiler comprises two distinct programs written in ANSI standard FORTRAN IV and may be installed on most medium to large scale computer systems".

This implies that the FORTRAM code was regarded as generic and likely to be available on time-sharing systems.

A  discussion on classiccmp_at_u.washington.edo was started on 3/31/99 between Joe Rigdon and John Lewczyk:

> >Hi. I'm new to the list and this is my first posting. I am looking for
> >PL/M cross compiler that Intel produced for the 8008 CPU. I
> have the Intel
> >manual, but no source or object for the language compiler, which
> was written
> >in Fortran by Gary Kildall when he worked for Intel back in
> ~1973. I have
> >source for an 8080 version of PL/M from Intel which went into the public
> >domain at some time, but I do not believe that it will produce 8008 code
> >(that ability is not mentioned in the documentation). Any help or
> >information on this would be appreciated.

What version? That's a good question. The only information that I have is
a reference to the tools in my old MCS-8 User's Manual. I've never had,
seen, nor used the original software, so I don't know what version. The
MCS-8 manual is dated November 1974. It also describes a MCS-8 Cross
Assembler Software Package (MAC 8) and MCS-8 Simulator Software Package
(INTERP 8).
There is also a reference to MCS-8 User's Program Library with items like:
Binary Search Subroutine
Floating Point Arithmetic Package
8-bit multiply
8-bit divide
etc..
On the back/inside cover of the manual it states under "Ordering
Information":
PL/M Compiler Software Package (written in Fortran IV)
MCS-8 Cross Assembler and Simulator Software Package (written in Fortran IV)
The manual states that both are "available via time sharing service or
directly from Intel".
I have source for PL/M version 2.0 (January 1975) which is 8080 specific
(The source and documents contain no references to "8008". So what I'm
looking for I guess predates that. Unless this version produces code (or
could be modified to produce code) that is 8008 compatible. I haven't yet
looked into that idea.

Hopefully that exchange provides some clues that may help in further searching.

Regards

Jon

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 04:21, Nigel Williams <n...@retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:

I found INTERP/80 and the PL/M for the 8080 in the usual places, but wondering if anyone has seen the 8008 versions? INTERP/8 and the PL/M compiler, both in FORTRAN that Intel made available in the early days.

thanks.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "intel-devsys" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to intel-devsys...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/a89256fb-63a3-4aa3-a17e-570a3a7cf90en%40googlegroups.com.

[Herbert Johnson]

NIgel contacted me; I encouraged him to post here as he explains.

>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 04:21, Nigel Williams
>>

>> I found INTERP/80 and the PL/M for the 8080 in the usual places, but
>> wondering if anyone has seen the 8008 versions? INTERP/8 and the
>> PL/M compiler, both in FORTRAN that Intel made available in the
>> early days.

On 2/22/2024 1:05 PM, Jon Hales wrote:
>
> I assume you are referring to a cross-compiler (in successive versions)
> for 8008 and 8080 - both specific to the Intellec 8 platform.

> The MCS-8 manual is dated November 1974. It also describes a MCS-8 Cross
> Assembler Software Package (MAC 8) and MCS-8 Simulator Software Package
> (INTERP 8).

> On the back/inside cover of the manual it states under "Ordering
> Information":
> PL/M Compiler Software Package (written in Fortran IV)
> MCS-8 Cross Assembler and Simulator Software Package (written in Fortran IV)
> The manual states that both are "available via time sharing service or
> directly from Intel".

So Jon finds bits of information. 1) Intel offered a package called
"MCS-8 *Simulator* Software package (INTERP 8) and (written in Fortran
IV). Emphasis mine. 2) Intel described this and other packages as
available products, and not items identified in Intel's user-donated
software libraries.

The MCS-8 is an Intel produced 8008 computer, quite old. Google will
inform you further. https://www.8008chron.com/Intel_MSC-8_April_1975.pdf

Interp-8 is not a compiler. It's an 8008 simulator, maybe a MCS-8 8008
computer simulator. It's a commercial product, not a freebie, written in
FORTRAN, created by Kildall for Intel. Users of INterp-8, may have only
accessed the compiled program through a minicomputer or mainframe thru
timesharing at a terminal. Thus users would not only not have FORTRAN
source, if they did they'd be prohibited from sharing it.

Kildall wrote about his FORTRAN and PL/M work in technical journals and
conference proceedings at the time. Check my Web site for descriptions
Kildall's work for Intel. I don't recall, if Intel documents for
Interp-8 have survived today, or if the FORTRAN source code survives
today. Other people on this list, has worked Intel code and documents
harder than I, and will respond I'm sure. And new archives of Intel
products are uncovered all the time.

.. and so, I convinced myself to noodle with Google. Look what I found!

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/4429980

Buried in a Lawrence Livermore Lab report is:

8008 Simulator
Software Package
NOVEMBER 1972
This manual describes ... a FORTRAN IV program
INTERP 8.... provides a software simulation of the
INTEL 8008 CPU, along with execution monitoring commands to
aid program development for the MCS-8.

So that's the user manual I believe.

Regards Herb Johnson

--
Herb Johnson, New Jersey USA
http://www.retrotechnology.com or .net
preserve and restore 1970's personal computing
email: hjohnson @ retrotechnology dot com
or try later at herbjohnson @ comcast dot net

[Al Kossow]

On 2/22/24 1:30 PM, Herbert Johnson wrote:

> 8008 Simulator
> Software Package
> NOVEMBER 1972
> This manual describes ... a FORTRAN IV program
> INTERP 8.... provides a software simulation of the
> INTEL 8008 CPU, along with execution monitoring commands to
> aid program development for the MCS-8.
>
> So that's the user manual I believe.
>
> Regards Herb Johnson
>

original paper copy of the simulator manual
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102657235

[Nigel Williams]

Thanks Jon/Herb/Al for the links to the related material. I too have found the same items and some of the details in those documents have helped greatly to narrow the search. The amazing thing these days is that having a precise filename for a tool can provide the missing search-term to trigger a find.

After a couple of days down some deep rabbit-holes I can report I've found binaries for this software and, exciting for me at least, a bunch of related tools that were floating around in the early 1970s.

 I found all these tools quietly sitting on the Tymshare recovered tapes (see screenshot snip showing UPL library):

after a few hours arguing with various encoding tools I extracted the INT8 example session file that looks like this:

cat dsk\:\[11\,562\]int8.exa
kB`F26-P035/EP?MR
:mMx(-RUN (UPL)INT8

INTERP/8 VERS 2.0
 
$F              ** INDICATES INPUT FILE IS IN HEX.
LOAD 7 7.       ** LOAD SYMBOLS AND OBJECT CODE FROM FOR21.DAT

47 LOAD OK
 
DISPLAY SYM.    ** DISPLAY SYMBOL TABLE

000000Q 00000 0000H  BLOCK01
000000Q 00000 0000H  A
000001Q 00001 0001H  B
000002Q 00002 0002H  C
000003Q 00003 0003H  D
000050Q 00040 0028H  DONE
000004Q 00004 0004H  E
000051Q 00041 0029H  FIRST
000005Q 00005 0005H  H
001661Q 00945 03B1H  IXAD
000006Q 00006 0006H  L
000006Q 00006 0006H  LOOP
000007Q 00007 0007H  M
000002Q 00002 0002H  MADD
000054Q 00044 002CH  SECND
000000Q 00000 0000H  BLOCK02
000021Q 00017 0011H  EOM
000000Q 00000 0000H  BLOCK03
000035Q 00029 001DH  EOM
 
BASE HEX.       ** CHANGE THE BASE TO HEX.

HEX BASE OK
 
DIS CPU.

CYZSP  A   B   C   D   E   H   L    HL  SP   PS0
*0000*00H*00H*00H*00H*00H*00H*00H*0000H*00H*0000H
 
BASE DEC.       ** CHANGE THE BASE TO DECIMAL.

DEC BASE OK
 
DISPLAY CPU.    ** DISPLAY CONTENTS OF THE CPU REGISTERS AND FLAGS.

CYZSP  A   B   C   D   E   H   L    HL  SP   PS0
 0000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 00000 000 00000
 
$E              ** EXIT FROM THE PROGRAM

EXIT

There is a goldmine of material on these tapes...maybe the original source can still be found, particularly for INTERP/8 and PL/M for the 8008

[Herbert Johnson]

I asked Nigel to clarify his findings and where the tapes are located,
and report "here". - Herb

On 2/23/2024 12:09 AM, Nigel Williams wrote:
> Thanks Jon/Herb/Al for the links to the related material. I too have
> found the same items and some of the details in those documents have
> helped greatly to narrow the search. The amazing thing these days is
> that having a precise filename for a tool can provide the missing
> search-term to trigger a find.
>
> After a couple of days down some deep rabbit-holes I can report I've
> found binaries for this software and, exciting for me at least, a bunch
> of related tools that were floating around in the early 1970s.
>
>  I found all these tools quietly sitting on the Tymshare recovered
> tapes (see screenshot snip showing UPL library):

> Screenshot 2024-02-23 at 3.59.42 pm.png
>
> after a few hours arguing with various encoding tools I extracted the
> INT8 example session file that looks like this:

[Jon Hales]

There's a reference to Interp/8 as follows:

Fortran IV Simulator for
Intel 8008 One-Chip Computer
Intel Corporation has introduced a
Fortran IV program for simulating the
operation of Intel's 8008 computer-on-a

chip, a complete 8-bit CPU packaged in an
18-pin DIP.
The program, designated INTERP/8, is
available from Intel on magnetic tape. It is
also available under time-share arrangements
with General Electric Timeshare, Tymshare
Corporation and Applied Logic
Corporation.
INTERP/8 accepts machine code
produced by the INTEL 8008 Assembler,
along with execution commands from a
MARCH 1973
timesharing terminal, card reader, or disk
file. The execution commands allow
manipulation of the simulated system
memory and the 8008 CPU registers. In
addition, operand and instruction
breakpoints may be set to stop execution at
crucial points in the program. Tracing
features are also available which allow the
CPU operation to be monitored. INTERP/8
provides symbolic reference to storage
locations as well as numeric reference in
various number bases.
The addition of this simulator program
completes a comprehensive set of hardware
and software support to assist development
of Intel's MCS-8 micro computer systems.
Support now includes protyping system,
PROM programmer, hardware assembler,
Fortran IV assembler, Fortran IV simulator,
several control programs and a system
interface and control module.
Delivery is immediate from stock and
price is $750.
For further information in the U.S.A.
contact Hank Smith, Micro Computer
Systems Manager, Intel Corporation, 3065
Bowers Avenue, Santa Clara, California
95051. Phone (408) 246-7501. In Europe,
contact Jens Paulsen, European Marketing
Manager, Intel Corporation, Avenue Louise
216, B 1050. Brussels, Phone 492003. In
Japan, contact Mr. Magami, Intel Japan Inc., 

Hanei 2nd Bldg., No. 1-1, Shinjuku,
Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo, Phone 03-403-4747.

This appeared in a March 1973 list of 'New Products' available at this location

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=1641675.

Can anyone translate $750 in 1973 to $????.... in 2004? It wasn't intended for trivial purposes [...].

Regards

Jon

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "intel-devsys" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to intel-devsys...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/1437d130-2217-4e58-bfcb-a784474f29d1%40retrotechnology.com.

[pbi...@gmail.com]

https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

January to January basis

1973:  $   750.00

2004:  $3,260.56

2024:  $5,429.88

 

From: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Jon Hales
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 11:50 AM
To: intel-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: intel-devsys seeking FORTRAN source for the original Intel 8008 tools

 

…

[Herbert Johnson]

The document Jon references, amounts to a feature in IEEE Computer
magazine, that reprints press releases for products. So it's a sales
statement from Intel about their Interp/8 product.

Jon asks for USA price-inflation information. I don't know why he asked
for 2004? Did he mean 2024? "Let me goggle that for you".

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator

$750 in 1973 is worth $5147 in 2023, $3190+ in 2004.

I'll spell out the early 1970's situation for some engineer to run this
FORTRAN emulator. In most any company in the era of size in 1973, an
engineer asking to spend $750 to buy software to run on some mainframe
or minicomputer?

They would have needed approval from their IT department (which probably
ran programs for accounting not engineering). If the company didn't have
computers, then the arrangement would have been with a timesharing
service to install a tape of software. Or, the timeshare service had the
Intel software and offered access for an additional fee. For a larger
company, approval for access and time on a department mini/mainframe.

Managers and middle-level executives would be involved, both on the cost
and on the logistics as I described. If the engineer already had
mainframe remote access (timesharing), that service was probably managed
in the same way.

In companies in the era, whomever was responsible for a minicomputer,
and especially for a mainframe, defended their "turf" fiercely. Users
who wanted services were treated as threats, not customers or clients.
And microprocessors were not taken seriously as any kind of computer. If
they were, they would be a direct threat. I saw this myself, in the
early 1980's, at Eastman Kodak, as an engineer.

Without going on about it: FORTRAN on mainframes for microcomputer
development, was unnecessary by the late 1970's, for reasons you can
guess. The early 70's was a tough time to put microprocessors to use. It
all broke loose, when microprocessors could support themselves.

Regards Herb Johnson

On 2/23/2024 11:50 AM, Jon Hales wrote:
> There's a reference to Interp/8 as follows:
>
> Fortran IV Simulator for
> Intel 8008 One-Chip Computer
> Intel Corporation has introduced a
> Fortran IV program for simulating the
> operation of Intel's 8008 computer-on-a
> chip, a complete 8-bit CPU packaged in an
> 18-pin DIP.

> Delivery is immediate from stock and
> price is $750.
>

> This appeared in a March 1973 list of 'New Products' available at this
> location
>
> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=1641675
>

> Can anyone translate $750 in 1973 to $????.... in 2004? It wasn't
> intended for trivial purposes [...].
>
> Regards
>
> Jon

[William Beech]

Al,

Any way to get the actual manual - not a reference to it?

Thanks!

Bill

[Al Kossow]

On 2/23/24 2:32 PM, William Beech wrote:
> Al,
>
> Any way to get the actual manual - not a reference to it?

I'll see about scanning it

[William Beech]

Al,

Thank you.

CHM also have some paper tape versions of early Intel tools.  Any chance
thay could be read into files and posted?

Bill

[Al Kossow]

On 2/23/24 3:15 PM, William Beech wrote:
> Al,
>

> Thank you.
>
> CHM also have some paper tape versions of early Intel tools.

catalog number?

[Herbert Johnson]

> On 2/23/2024 5:32 PM, William Beech wrote:
>> Al, Any way to get the actual manual ...

I pointed toward the report: you had to follow the links to get to the
INtel Manual. Let me show you ...

Look at the end of this email. See my post of Feb 2/22/2024 4:30 PM. See
where it says "Buried in a Lawrence Livermore Lab report is:". There's a
Web link.

Follow the fine Web link to the OSTI Web site. The page reports on the
LLL report, *and to the left on that page* says "view Technical Report":
with a hot link, The link resolves to

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/4429980/

That's a PDF, a LLL report. Download the PDF of the report.

Scroll a few pages of the PDF to see the front-page of the INtel
Interp-8 software manual. There. it. is. The manual. From INtel, via
Lawrence Livermore Lab. The Lab report discusses use of the interpreter
in March 1973, followed by the INtel manual. Today I looked harder,
it's has most if not all of the INtel manual but the front and back
covers and maybe the copyright page.

Regards Herb

On 2/23/2024 5:32 PM, William Beech wrote:
> Al, Any way to get the actual manual - not a reference to it?

> Bill
>
> On 2/22/2024 2:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

[link to CHM Web page, shows photo of manual in CHM inventory,
no link to PDF or other scan of manual]

On 2/22/2024 4:30 PM, Herbert Johnson wrote:

> .. and so, I convinced myself to noodle with Google. Look what I found!
>
> https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/4429980
>
> Buried in a Lawrence Livermore Lab report is:
>

> 8008 Simulator
> Software Package
> NOVEMBER 1972
> This manual describes ... a FORTRAN IV program
> INTERP 8.... provides a software simulation of the
> INTEL 8008 CPU, along with execution monitoring commands to
> aid program development for the MCS-8.
>
> So that's the user manual I believe.

[Mark Ogden]

From the Tymshare tapes, some interesting history of the Fortran cross compiler for PLM80 is shown below.

There are also similar notes on some of the other tools and example runs. Unfortunately, only the executable versions

of the tools appear to be available, no Fortran source. Some of the tools spotted include Interpreters and assemblers for 4004, 4040, 8008 and 8080

along with the PLM compilers for 8008 and 8080.

****VERSION 4.1 OF PLM81 AND PLM82

        THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN CORRECTED:
        1). A DO WHILE < IMBEDDED ASSIGNMENT STATEMENT> NO
             LONGER WILL INCORRECTLY DECREMENT THE DO COUNTER.
        2).  A NULL LITERALLY DECLARATION WILL NOW COMPILE
        3).  UNDEFINED LABLES ARE NOW ALWAYS DETECTED IN PASS 1.
****VERSION 4.0 OF PLM81 AND PLM82

        THE FOLLOWING ERRORS ARE CORRECTED IN VERSION 4.0:

1)      CERTAIN INVALID PL/M CONSTRUCTS, SUCH AS USING .<VARIABLE>
        IN A DATA STATEMENT, CAUSED COMPILER FAILURE.
2)      WHEN USING INTERRUPT PROCEDURES WITH PL/M, LOAD RECORDS
        WERE GENERATED BELOW THE PROGRAM ORIGIN WHICH CAUSED INTER-
        FERENCE WITH THE INTELLEC MONITOR ENTRY ADDRESSES.
3)      H-L REGISTER OPTIMIZATION OCCASIONALLY CAUSED PROBLEMS IN DO-CASE
        AND GO TO <VARIABLE STATEMENTS.

        THE FOLLOWING ENHANCEMENTS WERE MADE:

1)      ALL EXTRANEOUS HEXADECIMAL LOAD RECORDS BETEWWN ISA AND VSA AREAS
        ARE NOW SUPPRESSED.

        THE FOLLOWING ARE ERRORS THAT ARE STILL IN VERSION 4.0:

1)      A DO-WHILE <IMBEDDED ASSIGNMENT STATEMENT> MAY INCOR-
        RECTLY DECREMENT THE DO COUNTER.
2)      NUMBERIC LABELS, OTHER THAN THOSE IN THE OUTERMOST BLOCK,
        DO NOT CAUSE A STACK POINTER RESET.
3)      EXITS FROM PROCEDURES VIA GO TO STATEMENTS WHOSE TARGET
        IS NOT THE OUTERMOST BLOCK, ARE NOT DIAGNOSED AS ERRORS
        AND CAUSE ERRONEOUS STACK POINTER SETTINGS.
4)      A VERY LARGE PROGRAM (>4096 LINES) CAN CAUSE THE LINE-
        NUMBER/ADDRESS MAP TO WRAP AROUND.
5)      SETTING $V=255 DOES NOT WORK PROPERLY.
6)      A NULL LITERALLY DECLARATION DOES NOT COMPILE PROPERLY.
****VERSION 3.2 OF PLM82 AND PLM82

        THIS VERSION FIXES A PROBLEM WHICH CAUSED LOOPING IF
THERE WERE SYNTAX ERRORS OR EXTRA ENDS IN A PROCEDURE
DECLARATION.

****VERSION 3.1 OF PLM81 AND PLM82

        THE FOLLOWING WERE FIXED:

        1) BAD CODE GENERATED FROM THE BUILT-IN FUNCTION ROR, WITH
COMPLEX EXPRESSIONS AS ARGUMENTS IS NOW CORRECTED.
        2) BAD CODE GENERATED FROM ARITHMETIC OR LOGICAL EXPRESSIONS IN-
VOLVING ANY OF THE FOUR FLAGS, CARRY, SIGN, ZERO, AND PARITY IS
NOW CORRECTED.
        3)BAD CODE GENERATED TO CALCULATE TTHE ADDRESS OF
A SUBSCRIPTED BASED VARIABLE, WHOSE SUBSCRIPT EXPRESSION CONTAINS SHIFTED
OR ROTATED CONSTANTS, IS NOW CORRECTED.
****VERSION 3.0 OF PLM81 AND PLM82
        THE MAJOR CHANGE IN VERSION 3.0 OF INTEL'S PLM FOR THE
8080 CHIP IS THE A PROGRAM CAN NOW EXCEED 16K BYTES OF CODE. IT CAN
ALSO ADDRESS AREAS ABOVE 16K. IN ADDITION THE FOLLOWING ARE FIXED:

1)      CONSOLE INPUT TO PASS-2 OTHER THAN A DOLLAR - SIGN
CONTROL RECORD CAUSED INFINITE REPETITION OF ERROR 111.

2)      USE OF A NUMBERIC LABEL AS A PROCEDURE NAME
CAUSED THE COMPILER TO CRASH UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.

3)      A MACRO BODY CONTAINING ITS OWN NAME CAUSED INFINITE
REPETITION OF ERROR MESSAGES.

3)      ERROR MESSAGE 11 IN PASS-1 WAS IMPROPERLY DOCUMENTED TO EXCLUDE
VARIABLE DECLARATIONS

4)      INCORRECT FORTRAN CODE, WHOSE EFFECTS ARE UNKNOWN.

5)      MISSING COMMENT RECORD IN THE PASS 1 INDEX OF SUBROUTINES.
6)      A CALCULATION WITH A 33 - BIT INTEGER RESULT FAILED TO
MEET OUR FORTRAN PORTABILITY SPECIFICATIONS.

7)      INCORRECT CODE WAS GENERATED FOR CERTAIN EMBEDDED ASSIGNMENTS.

8)      REFERENCES TO AN UNDECLARED (AND UNUSED) FORTRAN VARIABLE
REMAINED FROM AN EARLIER VERSION OF THE COMPILER.

9)      DUPLICATE GOTO STATEMENTS EXISTED IN THE FORTRAN CODE.

10)     ACTUAL PARAMETERS WERE GARBLED IN CERTAIN PROCEDURE
        CALLS.

11)     THE LIMIT ON THE SIZE OF THE MACROS TABLE WAS UNDOCUMENTED.

12)     ALL MACRO EXPANSIONS WERE TERMINATED BY THE OCCURENCE
OF AN END IN THE MACRO BODY, REGARDLESS OF SCOPE.

****VERSION 2.0 OF PLM81 AN PLM82
        THE FOLLOWING CHANGES WERE INCORPORATED INTO VERSION 2.0 OF
PLM81 AND PLM82.

1)      THE SYMBOL TABLE FORMAT IS NOW MORE READIBLE.
2)      CODE GENERATION IS ABOUT 15 % BETTER.
3)      THE DEFAULT OF THE $Q SWITCH HAS BEEN CHANGED TO 1 WHICH ALWAYS
        GIVES A HEX FILE INSTEAD OF A BNPF.
4)      THE DEFAULT OF THE $B SWITCH HAS BEEN CHANGED TO 7 WHICH ALWAYS
        PRODUCES AN OBJECT FILE.
5)      THE $W SWITCH WAS CHANGED TO 120 WHICH WILL CAUSE THE LISTING FILE
         TO BE SINGLE SPACED INSTEAD OF DOUBLE SPACED.
6)      ERROR MESSAGES WERE CLEANED UP.

[Herbert Johnson]

So Mark, do you have an impression, of what it might take to operate
these executables? Apparently they ran on DEC-10 Tymeshare systems. My
guess is they ran some flavor of TOPS-10 (OS); I believe there's a
MIME-class emulator for the PDP-10. But they may have run some other,
locally produced OS. There may be a need for some FORTRAN library
modules not included with the executable. And so on.

A Plan B might be, some kind of limited emulator tailored for this
Tymeshare system only, with limited OS and I/O support - essentially to
run single compiled-Fortran programs.

A Plan C might be, to simply find means of extracting information as
text (as you have done). But also, to perform some static analysis of
the executable and convert it into something more palatable today. This
you Mark have also done, thanks to your considerable skills, but with
considerable effort.

Apparently there's a private discussion group, just on these tapes. I
imagine they have their own plans and ideas. Ssuch groups would likely
appreciate some show of interest and support from allied persons. (That
said, sometimes that's not the case.)

This is all above my pay grade, so I think I've contributed all I can.
Short of trying to read PDP-10 binaries; I haven't coded in PDP-10
assembler in decades, and never as a regular coder.

On my DRI Web pages, I'll note that there's an archive of (likely)
Kildall-produced FORTRAN tools for Intel, at the archive of Tymeshare
tapes. Those interested can follow up accordingly.

Regards HErb

On 2/26/2024 10:26 AM, Mark Ogden wrote:
> From the Tymshare tapes, some interesting history of the Fortran cross
> compiler for PLM80 is shown below.
> There are also similar notes on some of the other tools and example
> runs. Unfortunately, only the executable versions
> of the tools appear to be available, no Fortran source. Some of the
> tools spotted include Interpreters and assemblers for 4004, 4040, 8008
> and 8080
> along with the PLM compilers for 8008 and 8080.
>

[notes from various versions of PL/M provided]

[Herbert Johnson]

Nigel and I discussed privately, some Web resources for the tapes and
for tools to extract files. As we found the same resources but Nigel was
first, I asked him to post those findings here. While waiting for that,
I've updated my DRI Web pages with that information, those links.

https://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/dri_plm.html

...and so to answer my own post, Lars Brinkhoff's github page includes a
tape file-extractor, and SIMH based emulators for the PDP-10, and other
PDP-10 based tools. Other people are well ahead of me, of course.

regards Herb

On 2/26/2024 11:18 AM, Herbert Johnson wrote:
>
> A Plan B might be, some kind of limited emulator tailored for this
> Tymeshare system only, with limited OS and I/O support - essentially to
> run single compiled-Fortran programs.
>

[mark.p...@btinternet.com]

Herb

I used the tito tool but it needed a fix as it fails to extract all files if the opening header appears more than once. I also got it working under Windows although it does need character mapping for names starting with *.

Although some of the tapes that fail with the original tito do have errors they also contain many more files that can be extracted.

Mark

Regards

Mark Ogden

---

From: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Herbert Johnson <hjoh...@retrotechnology.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2024 4:44:55 PM
To: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com>; Mark Ogden <ogd...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: intel-devsys seeking FORTRAN source for the original Intel 8008 tools

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "intel-devsys" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to intel-devsys...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/8569bc7e-be8d-4f50-995e-5ba9ce74a10b%40retrotechnology.com.

[Jon Hales]

Hello All, cc Nigel Williams

Has anyone taken forward the extraction of the Intel resources listed in a message by Nigel Williams on 23rd February 2024?

If so, would it be possible to deposit the recovered material in a location such as Bill's Google Drive (or my Google Drive, where I have space)?

Also, it would be useful for those not familiar with the Tymshare repository (i.e. me) to have a pointer to the location/tape where these tools were uncovered.

A further point: has anyone thought about making the tools operable ('converting the tools') under a Windows or Linux environment?

Regards

Jon

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/DU0PR08MB8347D2E0940447633766E455FC5A2%40DU0PR08MB8347.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com.

[Al Kossow]

On 11/1/24 9:38 AM, Jon Hales wrote:

> Also, it would be useful for those not familiar with the Tymshare repository (i.e. me)

what "Tymshare repository" ?

I've been collecting Tymshare material for decades and have never heard of it.

[Herbert Johnson]

For cryin' out loud! Have either of you (Jon and Al) guys *read the
entire thread*?? or what's quoted in Jon's own query? "Shall I google
that for you?" Am I missing something here?

1) My (Herb Johnson) response in February, points to my own Web page.
That page *points to the archive* and *points to the Lars toolset* in
question.

2) Mark Ogden's response also in Feb, says he ran with corrections, the
"Tito" tool and got some partial results.

Jon should direct his inquiry to Mark, to see if Jon himself can get the
corrected tool he requests from Mark. Or see if Mark did those
extractions already. If not, Jon can perform the extractions he
requests, and Jon can create the archive he says he'd like to do. the
tools themselves, are C programs, at-a-glance they seem decent, I can't
judge for others, Lars might answer questions, etc.

If Jon works on this, please tell me Herb Johnson, so i can add that
update to my Web page. I don't like Google Drive archives, because they
are not Web-search findable directly. Google Drives are intended for
private use, last I heard. But I'll point to any archive I'm directed to
on the matter.

My good friend Al Kossow will find the TYmshare repository link on my
Web page.

Can you guys scroll down this email to find the Web link to my Web page?

Pretty much near the top of my Web page, the content requested is where
it says "Archives of FORTRAN PL/M Intel/Kildall products"; or text
search for "Tymshare" on the page.

Am I wasting my time to make ancient Intel Web pages that get ignored
*by my own colleagues*?

I think others find these useful - but I don't often get a response for
use, any more than people thank any Google-search-result Web site for
useful content. I see what I saw today, and responded to make these
points - and, maybe, help my friends/colleagues out.

regards- Herb Johnson

>
> On 11/1/2024 12:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>
>> what "Tymshare repository" ?
>>
>> I've been collecting Tymshare material for decades and have never heard of it.
>>

>> --

On 11/1/2024 12:38 PM, Jon Hales wrote:
> Hello All, cc Nigel Williams
>
> Has anyone taken forward the extraction of the Intel resources listed in
> a message by Nigel Williams on 23rd February 2024?
>
> If so, would it be possible to deposit the recovered material in a
> location such as Bill's Google Drive (or my Google Drive, where I have
> space)?
>
> Also, it would be useful for those not familiar with the Tymshare
> repository (i.e. me) to have a pointer to the location/tape where these
> tools were uncovered.
>
> A further point: has anyone thought about making the tools operable
> ('converting the tools') under a Windows or Linux environment?
>
> Regards
>
> Jon
>
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2024 at 17:05, 'mark.p...@btinternet.com

> <mailto:mark.p...@btinternet.com>' via intel-devsys
> <intel-...@googlegroups.com <mailto:intel-...@googlegroups.com>>

> wrote:
>
> Herb
> I used the tito tool but it needed a fix as it fails to extract all
> files if the opening header appears more than once. I also got it
> working under Windows although it does need character mapping for
> names starting with *.
> Although some of the tapes that fail with the original tito do have
> errors they also contain many more files that can be extracted.
> Mark
>
> Regards
> Mark Ogden

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* intel-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:intel-...@googlegroups.com>
> <intel-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:intel-...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Herbert Johnson
> <hjoh...@retrotechnology.com <mailto:hjoh...@retrotechnology.com>>
> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2024 4:44:55 PM
> *To:* intel-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:intel-...@googlegroups.com>
> <intel-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:intel-...@googlegroups.com>>; Mark Ogden
> <ogd...@gmail.com <mailto:ogd...@gmail.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: intel-devsys seeking FORTRAN source for the original