Hand sack of corporate surveyor

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Sanjay Shaw

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Dec 9, 2010, 12:15:18 PM12/9/10

to sarkar...@yahoo.com, C K Bhatia, gov...@hotmail.com, Insurance surveyors, keep-in-touch-su...@googlegroups.com

Dear Friends,

I have gone through the esteem detail contents of Mr Govil and Mr Sarkar Also and observed followings:-

Ratio of qualified surveyor and dedicated skilled employee surveyor of India w r to to international communities of Loss adjuster groups is a matter of critics but on real future show up of Post FDI event, existing Indian proprietor (individual surveyor ) & corporate surveyor will not find any space of footage to keep in pace of survival. we people can not understand about the past several steps IRDA about the directorship of the corporate surveyors and recent draft ventilation on account of the outsource of the insurer core and non core business. I want to ask with surveyor about the telecalling services of claim management which can be defined/ considered as core business part of the insurer that are we aware about the hospitality of the tele-caller professional. Yes I know that existing proprietor loss assessor or corporate are not having such tele calling services whose projected plant machinery cost minimum of 25 benches is not less than 8 lakhs and forget about required working capital.

Why not , when I am in crisis of urinal disposal I used to get disrupt with consumer/customers calls (Dada Hamara Gari Palti Ho Gaya tha to apne kaya kiya net Loss or Total Loss --- ) I replied, sorry sir right now I am in urinal crisis as it is burning too high and I have not got time to swell by stomach on this noon. ------ customer told oh ho sorry we do not have alternatives. as IRDA have mistaken kept this part of loss adjustment as core business of insurer.
Yes an employee surveyor/' proprietor surveyor can deny any assignment on any ground of health and other technical reason but a corporate Like Tata AIG / Reliance / other are not having the amenities of hospitalisation other than Indian Vague terms " Server Down"
Yes it is the burden of the Financial liability to maintain the capital cost of the real loss adjuster which is not enough to analyse by the individuals without instrumentation application and system generated diagnostic report. Yes capture data at remote place of kerela and It will be able to analyse the probable age of the wall crack and moisture gradient graphs. Under body rust of the vehicle and applied paint application, degree of hardness of welding e t c
No we are Licensed surveyor with affiliation of the IIISLA for group bargain where acceptance of the technical opinion goes with support of the insurer's non technical claims manager and repairer's workshop manager and are not based on the self regulated norms of the IIISLA technicals
No we do not have time to go Germany / Australia / chekosalaviya other than Dominated UK CILA whose majorities are governed by CA / Financial institution
.............

Yes it is low transfer rate of of globalisation where exercise of the tender used to take place under the scheduled reserved value - get accepted and approved with illegal act of the recycling.

Dear sir we have keep open our three eyes (1) RIGHT (2) WRONG (3) NEUTRAL AND IN AN DEMOCRATIC PLATFORM THERE SHOULD BE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO EXERCISE THE ALL THEE APPLICATION TO GET ERROR FREE RESOLUTION.

Rather we can say there should be reserved seats of the IIISLA i.e. engineers, Chattered accountant, individuals, corporate surveyor with rotational basis of the Central and four zone.

Because You can not stop global impact in future which is not far away as we all Indian are consuming almost 99 % of International product every day and have become slave.

Please fill up all the holes so that our Loss adjustment field in India will not be able to inflated with such global impact i.e.

Loss adjuster Inbound tele- calling services country wide
Loss adjuster Out bound tele calling services country wide
Loss adjuster data acquisition and management services country wide
Loss adjuster claim facilitator services country wide
Loss adjuster salvation services country wide
Loss adjuster HRA service country wide as per norms of IRDA and IIISLA
Loss adjuster supply chain services of restoration and management
Loss adjuster logistic management services country wide
Loss adjuster ..........................
e t c ............lot of

OTHERWISE FORGET ABOUT THE EXISTING DRAFT OF THE IRDA ON OUTSOURCING AS NUMBERS OF THE CORE BUSINESS ITEM OF INSURER WILL DECREASE AND NUMBERS OF THE NON - CORE BUSINESS ITEM OF INSURER WILL INCREASE.

HAD YOU TRIED TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE REASON OF IN-HOUSE SURVEYOR I.E.

Individual surveyor use to move from extreme north to extreme south in the city traffic jam where as in house surveyor are well planed with time management to avail the with the certain radius of movement & mode of operand. we have forget that our country have given major financial share to make us engineers / doctors than why should we waste our time on traveling time on traffic jam.
basis of the assessment and adjustment are arbitrary and non mathematical with mode of phycho acceptance with consumer trauma and it's time base graphs. So In India here is no requirements of the technical loss assessor but mental loss assessor to get the agreement sheet of assessment with tantra mantra.
Social reflection of the surveyor varies from insurer to insurer / insurer to different car dealer / Insured to insured and does not required a specific social reflection and integrity.

Dear brother, Please do not take otherwise it is true:-

Free membership of IIISLA for all categorised surveyor of India
Free availability of the all above tools ( tofill up all the holes so that our Loss adjustment field in India will not be able to inflated with such global impact i.e..........as mentioned here in above )
free server of the IIISLA members to input IRDA Form 12 as compulsion for all with banking account support
Declaration of man hour of every surveyor to enable to raise the professional bill and ratings
Deactivation of categorisation and department financial limit,
Introduction of the CPD ( continuous Paint Development with Licentiate associate and fellow of the IIIISLA
e t c

A surveyor never be a begger to get acceptance of assessment from the repairer and or Insurer

Rather we can say there should be reserved seats of the IIISLA i.e. engineers, Chattered accountant, individuals, corporate surveyor with rotational basis of the Central and four zone.

JAI HO GOOGLE BABA WWW.IIISLA.ORG DO NOT HAVE OWN COMMUNITY SERVER (WHICH REQUIRED ONLY 900 USD ) INSPITE OF HIGH MEMBERSHIP CHARGES.

IT IS THE WATCH DOG ABOUT THE PREPARATORY STEP OF THE INTRUDER AS KNOCKING AT DOOR BUT WE ARE BUSY WITH BULL FIGHT.

fromSantosh Sarkar <sarkar...@yahoo.com>
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toinsurance.s...@google.groups.com,
Insurance Surveyors India <insurance-su...@googlegroups.com>,
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dateThu, Dec 9, 2010 at 2:48 PM
subjectFw: Fwd: About Survey Profession
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hide details 2:48 PM (5 hours ago)

Dear Friends,

You may aware about Mr. Govil's letter which advocating the contract survey. I raised some points which have already been reproduced by Mr. Anoop Kumar. After that Mr. Govil replied my mail and I gave him my reply also.

Pl have a look on the tailing mail and comment on it, as it may enrich both of us.

Regards
Santosh Sarkar

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Santosh Sarkar <san...@ssarkar.net>
To: sarkar...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:35:20 PM
Subject: Fwd: About Survey Profession

Dear Mr. Govil,

Thank you for your elaborate letter and you have explain very nicely in support of your view. I do have the following submissions :-

Making group of surveyors to handle a big jobs or volumonus jobs which a individual surveyors cannot handle. It really makes sense and I cannot deny also. Remember Sir, when three wheeler Auto-rickshwa started to ply on the Indian roads we failed to imagine that this can raise a big traffic problem for administrator of all citties and metros. You may know, in our Survey profession, we have person of IIT passout like you and at the same time a deploma holder and even less and if they run the corporate, imagine what standard they will maintain.

As a professional, we must have find the lacuna of the present law and should have taken steps to amend the same instead to utilise those lacuna. My submission is, if use of a assistant by an individual surveyor, for a claim of more then Rs. 20,000 is a case of violation, the same should apply to corporate surveyors as well.

You may know, till this days Chartered Accountants do not have any corporate entity throughout the world but it is not restrict them for big venture.

I really do not understand your logic of benefit of moffusil surveyor. You are telling the location of job is in interiors and you give him the job using your contact. Now tell me who may do the job in absence of you, you are telling, it may do by some city based surveyor. Is it not easy to convince our fellow surveyors and also the insurer for saving of their conveyance expenses by utilising local surveyors. Once our Institute having offices all corner of the country, Private insurer also can use local surveyors at any corner of our country. Institute must take a compulsory continue education program for all its members to upgrade our skill at the same time it can also insist for timely submission of report and payment of survey fees.

It is not known, why suddenly the IRDA took up the Categorisation process with great importance. Just imagine, who where the behind of the screen. Who have received the slice of cake. In my opinion, promoters of some of Private Insurer and unfortunately some of our own big brothers. Now, analyse the benefits they may received by reducing the number of licensed surveyors from 72000 to 12000, it gave them the pace to argue with the Government, this 12000 surveyors are just insufficient to serve all of us and insisted to allow or "not to disturb" contact survey and some of our big brothers got their assurance for Contract Survey and now some insurer using their unlicensed staff for conducting and preparing report and they also keep ready some black-sheep of our profession to sign those already prepared report. Now tell me how to tackle this situation

Agree, we cannot deny the phenomenon prevailing throughout the world, but we must not copy the same blindly. I got an opportunity to meet Mr. Malcom Edward, Ex-President of CILA and expressed that 75% jobs done by Corporate Surveyors but they have very lesser no. of professional and it may fit with their nation but we are having huge no. of professionals even after the categorisation compared to that country.

We are yet to start the very basic activity of our Institute, i.e. producing fresh blood for this profession. We are comparing our style of business with that of in the developed country but we are silently avoiding the work they are doing for the profession.

With my narrow knowledge, I have an idea of Insurance company, the very basic work of an insurer is to collect premium by promising to help financially after the insured incident occurred, so two prime job are here, one collecting premium and second disbursement of a claim. Both are same important. If any insurer outsources their claim handling portfolio, it may loose the identity as an Insurer. I am not discussing the rules floated by the IRDA regarding outsourcing.

I do the same opinion on your first two priority, regarding third one, I thing the Institute should implement Certificate of Practice and it may ask for 15/20 hours pre-requisite yearly training for renew the COP. I slightly disagree with your priority no. four, I would like to amend for introducing a word "Independent" before the word surveyor in the last line of the first para in subsection 2 of Section 64UM. Regarding your point no. five, I am in favour to scrap the finance restriction as well. I have already answered the point no. 6.

Regards
Santosh Sarkar

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:09 PM, ANUPAM GOVIL <gov...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr. Sarkar,

It is nice to find a proactive response to my mail about advantages of contract surveying.

Since my days in the old institute I had been advocating that surveyors should make groups, have proper office and give professional service to the Insurance Companies. An individual surveyor can do limited work, while a group can give more and better output. This group can have tie-ups, a partnership company or a private limited company.

When a surveyor works alone and gets more work then he can handle, he employs assistances, who may or may not to be qualified, but they may be experienced.

Now this becomes violation of law, if he goes for survey above 20,000/- as per gazette notification no F51(15) – INS. I/69 dt. 30th May 1970.

If the group of surveyors does this work, then these assistants become their technical assistants and associates who can work, as allowed by IRDA for Corporate Surveyors.

When a association / partnership becomes bigger and larger number of people are involved than it is better to make a limited liability company i.e. private limited company.

Regarding benefit to moffusil surveyors, this has been explained in my earlier email. Again I will elaborate that if a claim is reported in the metros located in interiors, it is the tendency of insurance companies to send surveyors from the cities. In our module we try to use local surveyor as far as possible. This not only helps moffusil surveyors but also reduces the cost to the Insurance Companies. More over they are comfortable as the reports which are taken on letter head of local surveyors undergo check by the quality control team of our office and softcopy of the edited report is sent back to the moffusil surveyor, who also improves his reporting. Thus it is a win-win situation for all.

As far as increase of revenue of corporate surveyor, I wish to state that lot of cost is involved. We have marketing, quality control, payment follow up teams, etc. As on date, none of the corporate surveyors are able to make money, they are barely able to meet the cost. However they are continuing as it is the need of future.
On the other hand, the moffusil surveyor is able to get work, normally for which surveyor would have come from larger cities. This happens without any marketing cost, fee procurement cost & also increases in his technical / professional skills by working with corporate surveyor. It may be noted that at no point of time our company is indulging in picking up their local work.

Thus he gets additional work & income at no extra cost.

Categorization was a process done by IRDA to get a clear picture of the existing surveyors at that point of time. The initial categorization was to be followed up with up-gradation and analysis of the restriction of work in three departments. Unfortunately this was not done & the total exercise has failed as not admitted by any body.

Your comment about contract survey or In house survey being a resultant of this is not correct. This is a result of our indifference in upgrading our skills, timely completion of assignments & submitting our reports (TAT) and high cost.

I have also received a mail from the Shri. S.K. Bhadra which is reproduced below in response to my earlier email :-

“It was alleged that Surveyor appointed on ‘all India’ basis, subcontracting job to local surveyors on terms derogatory in nature and devoid of ethics. They were told to submit report on plain paper without signature. The fees were lumpsum and not as per scale. Initially I did not believe but similar offer over telephone from Gujrat came to me and I had to deny humbly.”

Yes I agree that what is stated above is not a healthy practice and our company does not indulge in such practice.

Regarding remuneration, now we are very particular that we tell the surveyor in advance what he will get for conducting survey; this will depend on what is paid to us by the Insured/Insurance Company. It is only after the remuneration offered is acceptable to the surveyor that he is entrusted with the work.

Internationally there are no individual surveyors for small losses, only corporate surveyors conduct survey and they use both employee surveyors, as well as free lancers to conduct survey. You cannot isolate international practices in this country. Ultimately international practices will come in to practice here also.

I am sure you would be aware that new entrants in General Insurance also do not wish to have a large claim department, but would like to use outside help, including for claims below 20,000/-.

You would also be aware that many old private players who had resorted to almost totally in house survey in motor department are rethinking and wish to use outside professionals. The key to changing times is to upgrade our skills, use latest technologies & use networking to improve individual surveyor’s livelihood.

If you remember in old institute we had brought Mr. Tony Fernandes who gave us a lecture on “Who Moved My Cheese.” This was simply saying that times change, look for other avenues & not be content with what you have in hand today.

Thank you for asking me to join the management of the Institute. However my approach to the problem is different from the approach adopted by the current management. My priorities will be :-

1.      Respect to survey profession.

2.      Membership of the Institute should be made mandatory.

3.      Training & upgrading of surveyors should be followed vigorously.

4.      Make efforts with authorities at appropriate level to ensure that sec 64UM does not get scrapped or modified.

5.      More work for existing surveyors, which may also mean removing the restriction of three departments for survey & networking.

6.      Making it economical for the insurance companies to outsource in house survey by showing them that their ultimate outgo by using outside professionals will reduce.

I am sure that I have given you something more to react, this mail of yours & my reply to you is also being mailed to other members of the institute whose correct Email ID is available in the voters list.

I also request those members who have not received my earlier or this mail to send me your correct Email ID so that I may be able to communicate with you also.

Thanks for your response & with warm regards,

A.K. GOVIL

----- Original Message -----
From: Santosh Sarkar
To: ANUPAM GOVIL
Subject: Re: About Survey Profession

Dear Mr. Govil,

Yes I heard about you and once I tried to meet you also but unfortunately we could not meet. In this communication, you are advocating the benefit of Corporate survey operation, I would like to request you to explain in brief.

Please explain the reason to make a partnership company from a stand alone surveyor and what was the reason to form a Company like Mack Surveyors (P) Ltd. Is it for the benefit of the Industry or the fellow surveyors ? The sole aim for this evolution is to gain more more (big & bulk) business and more and more revenue.

You are explaining that the income of moffusil surveyors will increase as they will get more jobs through you. You can not create new jobs for us. You will act as a intermediary between the Insurer and the surveyor against some percentage of their fees. The loss of survey fees of surveyors can only be increased the revenue of corporate surveyors like yours.

Can you explain the usefulness of Cetagorisation, you can easily understood, if you see the resultant effect of that categorisation. Who is the beneficiary of this categorisation ? It is like to catch the murderer by the crop, if there is no direct link, they are searching for the beneficiary of the incident. It is the root causes of Contract Survey or In-house survey.

I will appreciate you, if you come in the management of this Institute, it may get immense help from you. This institute is very much needed persons like you. But I would like to request you, pl feel the problem of surveyors in general who are not getting sufficient jobs to run their livelihood. Please help us to detect those surveyors who are destroying our profession by signing on the survey report without conducting the survey.

Again, I am appealing you to came and steering this Institute, please be associate with us for our fight against the Contract Survey, In-house Survey, and use of non-license personnels by the Insurer / Surveyors.

Regards,

Santosh Sarkar
Central Council Member
Indian Institute of Insurance Surveyors & Loss Assessors.

In any case, if a surveyors engage himself in regular basis with corporate surveyors his identity of Independent surveyor may lost and he has to depend on that corporate surveyors on their condition.

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010
Subject: Re: About Survey Proffession
From: gov...@hotmail.com
To:

Dear Fellow Surveyors,

Many of you will be knowing me, some of you must have met me and others must have heard about me.

Friends today I am reaching each one of you personally as I plan to again come back into the fold of management of the Institute in which I was involved during its formation.

For those who do not know me, I am a graduate from IIT Mumbai, passed out in 1972 as a B. Tech. (Mechanical). After that I have worked in private industry and then worked in New India Assurance Co. Ltd. for one year in 1980-81.

After leaving New India Assurance Co. Ltd., I started practicing as a non motor surveyor and have dealt numerous claimed in all departments other than Marine Hull, Aviation and Motor. I took a corporate licence way back in 90’s and had been practicing as a partnership concern in the name and style of A.K. Govil & Associates.

In 2007 the survey work of A.K. Govil & Associates has been taken over by Mack Surveyors (P) Ltd., today we have five directors and many employees and with the help of licensed surveyors all over the country, we are catering to the requirements of large corporate and Insurance companies in surveying losses of their clients in all departments other then Marine Hull, Aviation, the departments we plan to start in a year or two.

I had also been associated with the old Institute in the capacity of Member of Central Committee and as North Zone Chairman for many years. In 2002 the responsibility of handling the Zone was handed over to Mr J.L. Tiku. Due to differences in functioning of the Institute with the then President, Mr. M.J. Dhruva. I had not contested from the National Managing Committee when my tenure expired in 2002.

My contribution to the Institute is well known to the surveyors all over the country and does not require any elaborations.

Many of my friends have told me that my biggest disadvantage is that I practice contract surveying. I do not agree with them. Contract surveying is not eating away assignments from local surveyors, in fact it is making Insurance Companies to reach the surveyors in the remote areas of the country.

The moffusil surveyors has not to bother to get himself empaneled with all the companies, once he comes in the fold of a corporate surveyor with Pan India Networking, he can automatically get work in his area from all over the country without making any marketing efforts, his remuneration also is received without follow-up.

Moreover he is also independent and has his own practice, this work is add on to his existing work, thus his own income increases with least of effort.

To take benefit of this mode of survey, the moffusil surveyor has to upgrade his skills, get himself used to latest technologies and be prompt in his work.

We have to understand that today it is not the era of Public Sector Insurance Companies only, today there are, apart from the four nationalized companies many private insurance companies, the insurance business is expanding rapidly and in this changing scenario international practices are bound to come. We have to be prepared for this make over.

Friends I would like you to get over this fobia that in house survey and contract survey are bad. We have to work this things to our advantages.

If we surveyors can work more efficiently and reduce the claim outgo of the insurance companies and also in our dealing satisfy the insured, then I see no reason why the private companies will not gradually do away with in house survey. I am personally aware that many large private insurance companies have started feeling that the practice of in house survey is not giving them the desired results and plan to use outside surveyors for doing the survey.

The new private insurance companies which are now starting their operations are not thinking of having in house survey facility, but to out source total survey work, including that of self survey limit allowed of Rs.20,000/-.

Private Insurance Companies for both the above want to use Pan India Agencies instead of using individual surveyors for both better control, as well as cost efficiency.

Now it is up to us, the surveyors to think what is best for us, to keep fighting with Insurance Companies or to use these new opportunities to our advantage and increase our work and thereby increase our income.

I leave it to you friends to decide what you want, to keep fighting with insurance companies or to work with them to increase our income.
With this I end my first letter to all of you, the 2000 + existing members in good standing out of the Institute out of 5000 + who initially became members of this Institute.

Thanks for having patience to read views other than what you have been reading till now.

I assure you one and all that I will work as vigorously as I did in my last tenure of the old Institute.

If you have any quarries or suggestions please do not hesitate to contact me, my contact details are given below.

With warm regards,

A.K. Govil – (Mobile 09810096127)
Mack Surveyors Pvt. Ltd.
14-A, Factory Road, Ring Road,
Near Safdarjung Hospital,
New Delhi – 110 029

--
Santosh Sarkar

Sarkar & Co.
Cost Accountant / Surveyor & Loss Assessor
Room No.- 22, 5th Floor
22, BRB Basu Road
Kolkata - 700 001

Phone : 033 2231 0906 / 2210 6278
Fax : 033 2231 6180
Mobile : 093310 14000 / 091430 13989 / 094772 87139

--
Santosh Sarkar

Sarkar & Co.
Cost Accountant / Surveyor & Loss Assessor
Room No.- 22, 5th Floor
22, BRB Basu Road
Kolkata - 700 001

Phone : 033 2231 0906 / 2210 6278
Fax : 033 2231 6180
Mobile : 093310 14000 / 091430 13989 / 094772 87139

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