IIISLA membership for employee surveyors

[Tanmoy Sarkar]

Dear all,

I has been receiving calls from various licensed surveyors employed in various office regarding membership of IIISLA. They are also stating that they had received some sort of green signal from IIISLA or their employers. Can anybody throw any light about this?

With Regards,

Tanmoy Sarkar

[Chandrsekhara Raju]

Dear Mr PK Singh,

It is interesting that the topic was brought to public debate.  In fact we were requesting for such debate in a conclave of ALL conclude one way or the other, logically, or by proper interpretation by Judiciary.

Now, I will try to putforth my views point wise enumerated by you.  My vies are displayed in different colour fonts - for clarity purpose.

1. If you see various other professional bodies Like Institution of
Engineers or even for Docters, what is prescribed for membership of
Professional bodies is the Minimum educational qualification.

Membership of other professional bodies, does not empower you to deliver the duties / responsibilites attached  or expected from such professionals.  They are purely academical in nature.

For ex;  I am a member of Institution of Engrs., but that membership does not add to the requirements of what i can deliver to the Society (be it employer, practitioner and so on), in addition to what I can already by just being an Engineer.

But, being a member of IIISLA, it adds to my empowerment criterion to decide upon the "fidicuiary obligation of an insurer against a policy held by an insured, in case of an occurrence that causes raising of a claim".  

If an employee is also made a valid member of IIISLA and allowed to determine the losses, will it not amount the insurer himself assessing the loss without a valid report from an "approved surveyor"?  And is this not dead against the content and spirit of 64UM (2)?

2. Section 64UM(1)(D) of Ins. Act does not lay down any such
prohibition for employees.

Instead of saying what is not prohibited, examine what is provided.  Any system guidelines provides certain enabling criterion, and the prohibiting / barring criterion is provided in the "penal code". 

Examine what the Act says; licence can be issued to (i) Individuals; and (ii) Firms / Cos., in which a certain number are possess the required qualifications.  By this the provision is very clear.  Where does the employees come in, in the in this enabling provision? 

Please note that the "Employees" do not fit in to either (i) Individuals or (ii) Firms / Cos., for the simple reason they are not accountable for their actions as Individuals; and they can not be considered as firms / cos., themselves.  The employee is an instrumental entity who strives to act for and on behalf of the co., he is employed., and the 'service rules of his employer' takes precedence to govern the employee, but not the "Surveyor Regulations" of the licencing authority.

     
3. When IRDA issues and  renews Licence for working persons (in other
organisations) while seing the NOC of employers, it is logical that
Membership of IIISLA is given. It only will keep the person ready to
work later on if he so desires.

IRDA needs to issue licence as per Act, and it must be noted that "regulations" can not over ride the Act itself.  The regulations needs to be detailing the provisions of the Act, and not diverting from the content and spirit of the Act.

NOC of employer has no meaning at all, and it is not the qualifying criterion for issue of licence, and for that matter membership of IIISLA. 

If the intention of seeking membership of IIISLA is really what you express as "It only will keep the person ready to work later on if he so desires." then what is the hurry about?  Membership of IIISLA is not a one time affair, and can be extended to all such practicing SLAs, as and when they put their desire into practice.  Is it not?

4. Since , there is not,nor can there be a restriction on obtaining

licence, any artificial barrier in the form of not forwarding is
neither desirable nor expected of a Professional body.

To say it mildly, the licencing itself has become questionable, with different types of licences; Individual and / or corporate, while there is only one specified in the Act " Approved Surveyor".

There is no artificial barrier for membership of IIISLA. In fact, the AOA was itself designed and given shape under the control of IRDA.  Initially, the membership was also given by IRDA themselves.  While giving such membership, the rules and clauses of AOA has been given a go by, for reasons (if any) undisclosed.  That is the reason we find (i) Members who are already employees; and (ii) Multiple members with same SLA Nos.

Such record of a professional body, is it desirable or expected?  Please think on this before you comment on the action / inaction of IIISLA or barriers?  

SLAs need to be independent; that is the content and spirit of the Act; amply supported by none other than the 41st Std. Committee (of Parliament) of Finance Ministry.

Let us hope the year 2014 brings in such clarity and ends the discussion once for all.

Regards,

dcs raju

 

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Pankaj Kr Singh <pks....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Tanmoy and friends !

1. If you see various other professional bodies Like Institution of
Engineers or even for Docters, what is prescribed for membership of
Professional bodies is the Minimum educational qualification.

2. Section 64UM(1)(D) of Ins. Act does not lay down any such
prohibition for employees.

3. When IRDA issues and  renews Licence for working persons (in other
organisations) while seing the NOC of employers, it is logical that
Membership of IIISLA is given. It only will keep the person ready to
work later on if he so desires.

4. Since , there is not,nor can there be a restriction on obtaining
licence, any artificial barrier in the form of not forwarding is
neither desirable nor expected of a Professional body.

PK Singh, Kolkata.

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--
D. Chandrasekhara Raju,

Insurance Surveyor, Hyderabad.

+91-99490-95995.

[rajiv jalandhar]

                       !! HAPPY NEW YEAR !!

 

RAJIV AGGARWAL

505 CHEEMA NAGAR EXTN.,

MITHAPUR ROAD,

JALANDHAR CITY.

PUNJAB-144003

MOBILE-09814066724

E-MAIL rajiv_j...@yahoo.com

 

On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 4:12 PM, Rajarshi Dutta <dutta.r...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

IIISLA IS FOR INDEPENDENT SURVEYORS ONLY. NO BODY ELSE.

Rajarshi

On Wednesday, 1 January 2014 3:21 PM, Biman Banerjee <surveyo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Please read you have "called me "

 

From: Biman Banerjee <surveyo...@yahoo.com>
To: "iiisla...@googlegroups.com" <iiisla...@googlegroups.com>; "insurance...@googlegroups.com" <insurance...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Insurance Surveyor <insurance-su...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2014 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: {Surveyors:19252} IIISLA membership for employee surveyors

Dear Mr P.K.Singh,

You have me yesterday and I gave you reply also and instead you wrote this in the group mail board.Mr Tanmoy is right as per A.O.A of IIISLA.Please find attached A.O.A.( Which is not made by myself or Mr Tanmoy )

Hence I think it is very much clear to every body and needless to say anything more.

Thanks & regards

Biman Banerjee

 

 

From: Pankaj Kr Singh <pks....@gmail.com>
To: insurance...@googlegroups.com
Cc: iiisla-bengal <iiisla...@googlegroups.com>; Insurance Surveyor <insurance-su...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2014 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: {Surveyors:19252} IIISLA membership for employee surveyors

Hello Tanmoy and friends !

1. If you see various other professional bodies Like Institution of
Engineers or even for Docters, what is prescribed for membership of
Professional bodies is the Minimum educational qualification.

2. Section 64UM(1)(D) of Ins. Act does not lay down any such
prohibition for employees.

3. When IRDA issues and  renews Licence for working persons (in other
organisations) while seing the NOC of employers, it is logical that
Membership of IIISLA is given. It only will keep the person ready to
work later on if he so desires.

4. Since , there is not,nor can there be a restriction on obtaining
licence, any artificial barrier in the form of not forwarding is
neither desirable nor expected of a Professional body.

PK Singh, Kolkata.

On 1/1/14, Tanmoy Sarkar <tsar...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[KPR Prasad]

Dear sir,

Please refer the member's code of ethics displayed in our web site( Attached for your ready reference).You can find yourself , whether an employed SLA can become a member or not

regards

K.P.Raveendra Prasad

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 3:31 PM, SHASHIDHAR GAUTAM <sdgautam...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Tanmoy Ji

 

I am also receiving calls they are asking to sign as introducer and the will submit to their H.O. who will take up the matter with IRDA

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With Regards

S.D. GAUTAM

      Surveyor & Loss Assessor

9830033207(M) 

DIVYANG SURVEYORS & VALUERS PVT.LTD.

Room No.303,

11, CROOCKED LANE,2nd Floor

Kolkata-700069

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[Rajarshi Dutta]

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[Pankaj Kr Singh]

Hello Dear Shri Raju !

1. My compliments for Excellent, logical and thoughtful reply compared
to a lot of emotional outbursts of a few.

2. I think for any employee, working with/for any Insurance Company or
Employer related to Insurance business, should not be given IIISLA
membership, for reasons known and briefly brought out by you.

3. But, for employees working with other organisations, membership as
enabling feather need not be looked upon, with views expressed.

4. I was tempted to reply, as I am highly impressed with suaveness of
style, logic and manner. Meet when I go to Hydbd. In reciprocation may
pl message ,if you programme for Kolkata.

PK Singh, Kolkata.

[rajiv jalandhar]

                     !! HAPPY NEW YEAR !!

 

RAJIV AGGARWAL

505 CHEEMA NAGAR EXTN.,

MITHAPUR ROAD,

JALANDHAR CITY.

PUNJAB-144003

MOBILE-09814066724

E-MAIL rajiv_j...@yahoo.com

 

--
Note:
 
This is purely a private group of Insurance Surveyors in India strictly for their own internal circulation & consumption. The messages posted and opinions expressed on the forum are that of the individual members. The group owner/moderators are in no way responsible for any opinions expressed and/or offending messages that are posted on the message board.
 
No message posted on this message board shall be used against the member who posted the information and/or against the moderators as evidence in any court of law.
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[Pankaj Kr Singh]

Hello Tanmoy and friends !

1. If you see various other professional bodies Like Institution of
Engineers or even for Docters, what is prescribed for membership of
Professional bodies is the Minimum educational qualification.

2. Section 64UM(1)(D) of Ins. Act does not lay down any such
prohibition for employees.

3. When IRDA issues and renews Licence for working persons (in other
organisations) while seing the NOC of employers, it is logical that
Membership of IIISLA is given. It only will keep the person ready to
work later on if he so desires.

4. Since , there is not,nor can there be a restriction on obtaining
licence, any artificial barrier in the form of not forwarding is
neither desirable nor expected of a Professional body.

PK Singh, Kolkata.

On 1/1/14, Tanmoy Sarkar <tsar...@gmail.com> wrote:

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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/insurance_surveyors.

[J.k Sharma]

Respected Tanoy Sarkar,

You are Right that the phone calls/request even the personal meetings are being held by the employee surveyor, Some body has assured that the employee surveyor can be the member of IIISLA. This confusion was created by the letter of IRDA to IIISLA. There is No green Signal from any side or any authority to give the membership. The only surveyor can be the member of the association and a person working with any employer can not be termed a a surveyor.A time ago Mr. sunil dhawan from Delhi confused the association stating that he will recommend the employees person who have the licence to get the membership. The matter was discussed largely on the board. During this discussion some of the employee surveyor make the opinion that the membership can be taken if any body recommend their application. Some of the employer forced their employee to take the membership.Some of them are trying by hook and crook. Some of them have submitted the fee without recommendation. There may be chance if any employee may get the membership on the recommendation but could not be legalize and is being scrutinized for cancellation. 

All the confusions are being created  due lack of leadership and the responsibility.Since last some time the association is running without steering and brake. The driver is also missing from the seat.The members are shouting with cuffed hands.   

With Regard's

dadashree.sharma

Karnal Haryana

9354108188

9728335537

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Chandrsekhara Raju <dasara...@gmail.com> wrote:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (dasara...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info

Dear Mr PK Singh,

It is interesting that the topic was brought to public debate.  In fact we were requesting for such debate in a conclave of ALL conclude one way or the other, logically, or by proper interpretation by Judiciary.

Now, I will try to putforth my views point wise enumerated by you.  My vies are displayed in different colour fonts - for clarity purpose.

1. If you see various other professional bodies Like Institution of
Engineers or even for Docters, what is prescribed for membership of
Professional bodies is the Minimum educational qualification.

Membership of other professional bodies, does not empower you to deliver the duties / responsibilites attached  or expected from such professionals.  They are purely academical in nature.

For ex;  I am a member of Institution of Engrs., but that membership does not add to the requirements of what i can deliver to the Society (be it employer, practitioner and so on), in addition to what I can already by just being an Engineer.

But, being a member of IIISLA, it adds to my empowerment criterion to decide upon the "fidicuiary obligation of an insurer against a policy held by an insured, in case of an occurrence that causes raising of a claim".  

If an employee is also made a valid member of IIISLA and allowed to determine the losses, will it not amount the insurer himself assessing the loss without a valid report from an "approved surveyor"?  And is this not dead against the content and spirit of 64UM (2)?

2. Section 64UM(1)(D) of Ins. Act does not lay down any such
prohibition for employees.

Instead of saying what is not prohibited, examine what is provided.  Any system guidelines provides certain enabling criterion, and the prohibiting / barring criterion is provided in the "penal code". 

Examine what the Act says; licence can be issued to (i) Individuals; and (ii) Firms / Cos., in which a certain number are possess the required qualifications.  By this the provision is very clear.  Where does the employees come in, in the in this enabling provision? 

Please note that the "Employees" do not fit in to either (i) Individuals or (ii) Firms / Cos., for the simple reason they are not accountable for their actions as Individuals; and they can not be considered as firms / cos., themselves.  The employee is an instrumental entity who strives to act for and on behalf of the co., he is employed., and the 'service rules of his employer' takes precedence to govern the employee, but not the "Surveyor Regulations" of the licencing authority.

3. When IRDA issues and  renews Licence for working persons (in other
organisations) while seing the NOC of employers, it is logical that
Membership of IIISLA is given. It only will keep the person ready to
work later on if he so desires.

IRDA needs to issue licence as per Act, and it must be noted that "regulations" can not over ride the Act itself.  The regulations needs to be detailing the provisions of the Act, and not diverting from the content and spirit of the Act.

NOC of employer has no meaning at all, and it is not the qualifying criterion for issue of licence, and for that matter membership of IIISLA. 

If the intention of seeking membership of IIISLA is really what you express as "It only will keep the person ready to work later on if he so desires." then what is the hurry about?  Membership of IIISLA is not a one time affair, and can be extended to all such practicing SLAs, as and when they put their desire into practice.  Is it not?

4. Since , there is not,nor can there be a restriction on obtaining

licence, any artificial barrier in the form of not forwarding is
neither desirable nor expected of a Professional body.

To say it mildly, the licencing itself has become questionable, with different types of licences; Individual and / or corporate, while there is only one specified in the Act " Approved Surveyor".

There is no artificial barrier for membership of IIISLA. In fact, the AOA was itself designed and given shape under the control of IRDA.  Initially, the membership was also given by IRDA themselves.  While giving such membership, the rules and clauses of AOA has been given a go by, for reasons (if any) undisclosed.  That is the reason we find (i) Members who are already employees; and (ii) Multiple members with same SLA Nos.

Such record of a professional body, is it desirable or expected?  Please think on this before you comment on the action / inaction of IIISLA or barriers?  

SLAs need to be independent; that is the content and spirit of the Act; amply supported by none other than the 41st Std. Committee (of Parliament) of Finance Ministry.

Let us hope the year 2014 brings in such clarity and ends the discussion once for all.

Regards,

dcs raju

 

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Pankaj Kr Singh <pks....@gmail.com> wrote:

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--
D. Chandrasekhara Raju,

Insurance Surveyor, Hyderabad.

+91-99490-95995.

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[J B BODA SURVEYORS PVT LTD - CAPT.SATISH BHANDARY]

Dear All,

 

There seems to be lot of confusion between Corporate Employee Surveyor & Insurance Company( In –House ) Surveyor. As per Amended Regulations for SLAs – 2013, the Employee Surveyors are to be listed under the respective Survey Companies ( Corporate Survey Companies ) & they cannot carryout Surveys in their individual capacity. There are other restrictions like class of Surveys (as per their individual Licence) that they can get involved. There is no point in riding a moral high horse or being hypocritical by alleging that  the Directors / Partners are mostly using  unqualified juniors to do the surveys. As far as “J. B. Boda” is concerned all the three Directors & the Employee Surveyors are practicing Surveyors & are actively involved in Surveying. It is a common knowledge that assistance from juniors is availed to collect & check documents, segregation of damaged cargo, supervise/witness weighment etc. In-House Surveying is primarily affecting Motor Claims which form approxly. 70% of all Insurance claims. As everyone knows, we ( Bodas ) do not undertake Motor Surveys  as a Corporate Policy. In addition, our focus is on Marine oriented Surveys such as Inspection of Import / Export Cargo & Containers,, Inspection of Ships, Investigation of Marine Casualties, etc.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Informatively, our Insurance Survey related billing forms less than 10% of our gross billing.

  

 To summarise, Corporate ( read Employee ) Surveyors are not adversely affecting the work volumes of Individual Surveyors. Last but not the least, Senior Corporate Surveyors have a wealth of knowledge in Insurance related subjects & this asset can be tapped for CPD purposes.

 

The above observations are written with an open mind.

 

Thanks & best regards,

 

( Capt. Satish Bhandary )

Director & Principal Surveyor

J.B.Boda Insurance Surveyors &

Loss Assessors Pvt. Ltd. MUMBAI -400015.

Tel(Off.) :- +91-22-33590201

Fax :- +91-22-33590207

Email :- survey...@jbbodamail.com

Email(Dir.) :- bhan...@jbbodamail.com

Tel(Res./AOH) :- +91-22-28413848 / 28427141

Mob.(Cell) :- +91-98201 48433 

 

From: insurance-su...@googlegroups.com [mailto:insurance-su...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of J.k Sharma
Sent: 04/01/2014 6:08 PM
To: iiisla-bengal
Cc: Insurance surveyors; Insurance Surveyor
Subject: Re: {Surveyors:19252} IIISLA membership for employee surveyors

 

Respected Tanoy Sarkar,

--

Note:
 
This is purely a private group of Insurance Surveyors in India strictly for their own internal circulation & consumption. The messages posted and opinions expressed on the forum are that of the individual members. The group owner/moderators are in no way responsible for any opinions expressed and/or offending messages that are posted on the message board.
 
No message posted on this message board shall be used against the member who posted the information and/or against the moderators as evidence in any court of law.
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(KMS - spam check )

[Shailesh Shah]

Trust this will allow our friends to locate the correct entities damaging the professional existence of individual surveyors.