surveyor's empanelment

[Naresh Kukkar]

Dear Friends,
When IRDA issue licence to surveyor, it means he can do work as Insurance Surveyor & loss Assessor. He apply for empanelment in one company and then another to work in it. First it is on branch level, then DO level and then RO level. Which surveyor will be empaneled and which not comes the discretion of working authority. Then some working surveyors are removed from panel and some are added. This is pick & choose strategy. Authority should be having good understanding with you to empanal you. Then comes the job of survey allocation. then the process follows of "good understanding" with authority. Here we see the surveyors try more efforts on good understanding than learning the process of doing survey job in better way. The process of empanelment is unnecessary hurdle in our profession. Each surveyor having licence should get empanelment by sending a request letter. All surveyors should be able to get empanelment in all the companies. Giving them work or not is second point. It will be based on performance and quality of work. But when one officer says that I want to give you the work but you are not empaneled in our office sounds bad for profession. I do not know what are the benefits of empanelment but certainly this makes hurdle in contact of insurer & surveyor. This also leads to corruption . If you agree with me please share your views how we can make this profession better in respect of empanelment.
     

--
Naresh  Kumar Kukkar
Jalalabad( W), Punjab
nku...@gmail.com
01638-254054
09814706491

[MAHENDRER LOKWANI]

Dear All

 

I am agreed with your views once issueing of surveyor liscence there should not be any empanelment issue, nowadays what we are facing every company dealing with delers on corporate leval and giving them name of surveyors in other way they are handling surveyors in their hand. If a surveyor does as they will he will be continued otherwise depaneled. Means in whole life we are dancing. 

 

Just give your views abd that ways we can be in actual an "independent surveyor"

 

Mahender Lokwani

Bikaner 9414142263

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[Virender Kumar Chopra]

Dear Mr Naresh

 

No surveyor can differ with you on the subject because we are not benefitted with the procedure of empanelment.  The empanelment has been devised to benefit the Officers of the Insurers so that they can satisfy their EGO (Evil Goes On) and then other things, which I cannot write on board.

 

I will go one step further in this regard.  The IRDA when issues a Surveyors' License, it should inform all the Non-Life Insurers operating in India that such a person has been issued a License, whom the insurers can allot survey jobs in future.  This information of IRDA should serve the purpose of Empanelment of that surveyor in all the companies.

 

The empanelment is one of the several burning issues of the surveyors.  After getting License, manily, we face the following problems:

 

• Categorization
• Limitation of Departments
• First Empanelment
• De-panelling
• Rotation of Work
• Enhancement of Survey Fee Scedule
• Un-warranted Cutting in Fee
• Un-necessary discussions at various levels
• Service Tax problems

 

If all these anomolies are removed, we are sure the profession will become attractive.

 

BUT THE QUESTION IS HOW TO GET ALL THESE ANOMOLIES REMOVED, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ONLY PLATFORM OF SURVEYORS CALLED IIISLA IS PARALYSED AT ITS TOP.

 

SO I REQUEST ALL THE SURVEYORS NOT ONLY TO REMIND US ABOUT THE PROBLEMS, BUT COME FORWARD WITH SOLUTIONS IN THE PRESENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE MEANS AT OUR DISPOSAL.

 

Regards

 

Virender Kumar Chopra

Surveyors & Loss Assessor

Ludhiana

91-98147-06506

  

--

[Navneet Kumar Jain]

I have suffered a lot due to this pick and choose policy by the officials of the Insurance companies. Now, luckily we have this good platform. I suggest the following to counter the menace of empanelment: a) Filing of RTI with the head offices of all the PSU insurance companies so as to check the periodicity of empanelment process and the critereon for empanelment   b) Filing of RTI with the regional/head offices of all the PSU insurance companies so as to assess the exact name and number of empanelled surveyors   c) Filing of RTI with the Ministry and IRDA as to check the validity of empanelment under any law.   The use of RTI for explaining the procedure of empanelment and criterion for empanelment will definitely put a pressure on the discretionary powers of the empanelment Let us go slow, start getting the data through the use of RTI and then seek the help of IRDA / Ministry in this regard    Regards, Navneet Kumar Jain FICWA, MBA., LL.B., M.COM., PGDTL, AIIISLA., LIII 9810175020 navn...@yahoo.com,navn...@rediffmail.com --- On Mon, 27/6/11, Virender Kumar Chopra <virenderk...@gmail.com> wrote:

[S. Anoop Kumar]

Dear Mr. Naresh Kukkar,

They are areas I may have to differ with some of you. Granting SLA
License to an individual by IRDA or the erstwhile Controller of
Insurance does not amount to guarantee of employment. It is for the
individual to prove his capabilities before the different insurance
companies and convince them that he is capable of delivering the
quality of services as demanded by them. That is a surveyor has to
go about selling his services. It is not practical for every
insurance company to empanel every license holder automatically and
also allot him jobs on rotation basis. Insurer's should have the
discretion to select the surveyor whom they think is best suitable
for
the job. And they know how to gauge the qualities of a surveyor
based on his previous performance and quality of service rendered.


What we are all missing is the in-house surveys conducted by the
private insurance companies in blatant violation of Section 64 UM of
Insurance Act. Most insurance companies are getting the survey jobs
conducted by their employees who are not licensed even for losses
over
and above Rs. 20,000.00. This is one area which needs to be
seriously looked into and also plugged and there would be automatic
flow of jobs for the surveyors. But our concentration and efforts in
this direction are minimal if not negligible. We may a hue and cry
at one point of time and then just forget it. We do not follow up
the matter vigorously.


Our IIISLA has done very little in this direction. Several
surveyors
have brought several deviations with supporting evidence and except
for forwarding the info to IRDA our IIISLA council has not done
anything better. While we surveyors are not united and disorganised
with rampant mismanagement, the private insurer's are more organised
and united and they know how to handle the issue and also defend
their
actions before IRDA.


Can you just cite one case where an enquiry was ordered by IRDA
wherein violation of 64UM was brought to their notice with evidence
and IIISLA council members were also called in to air their views and
substantiate their case leading to penalizing the insurer’s ?


Unless we oppose the in-house surveys, even preventing the in-house
surveys from conducting the survey jobs, and stretching to the extent
of filing a complaint before the police and handing over one in-house
surveyor, we cannot expect any change in the profession for good.
This is more applicable for the surveyors who are concentrating and
depending on the Motor surveys.


But most of the motor surveyors are just passive and they always
expect someone else to do the job for them. And most motor
surveyors
do not even try to keep themselves informed and upgrade
themselves. I always find only few mouths shouting and making
noise and others keeping themselves on the sidelines.


Regards,
S. Anoop Kumar.

[amar kant jha]

Dear Friends,

 I think the matter  raised by the Mr. Naresh for New Surveyor. A person getting licence from IRDA , should be empaneled in all General Insurance Sector automatically. Now it should be his chance to get the job from Underwriter.

Similarly- For the Surveyor practicing or all ready in job of survey since long should be empaneled in HUB  of Underwriter automatically as per the IRDA approved list of Surveyor.

Underwriter selection of Surveyor  for  HUB --- in more than 99% cases- It is completely money and influence game. None of the Underwriter selects the HUB panel of surveyor WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

Coming to so called Quality Surveyor--- First decide the word QUALITY--

1. One is Quality surveyor in the eyes of Surveyor.-- Generally rejected by Underwriter.

2.One is quality Surveyor in the eyes of Underwriter-- Generally Surveyor Community call them CHAMCHA.

IN my opinion-- This  selector panel of all UNDERWRITER must have three to Five member of  Surveyor-- Names should be decided by the Local Surveyors.

Amar Kant Jha

0933-47-84485

PATNA

28.06.11

---

From: S. Anoop Kumar <s.anoo...@gmail.com>
To: Insurance surveyors <insurance...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, June 28, 2011 9:29:19 AM
Subject: {Surveyors:8679} Re: surveyor's empanelment

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[shailesh shah]

With due respect to my friends Anoopkumar and Naresh I want to direct this dialgoue to a new fresh direction,,with a hope that it will bring useful result at the end of the exercise. It is humble request to all moderators to post it in all forums, without any hesitation or moderation, as we are fighting a very tough battle and 100% communication is required.

1. our dependency on insurance companies judgement still exists, there is likelihood of misjudgment on part of insurers also, and this is one of the major reasons for the roadblocks that we all are plagued with today. The same insurers are deciding/ preferring  to put their Inhouse surveyors to assess losses. How can they be fair in their judgment?  
   
2. hence removal of the power to appoint surveyor from insurance companies hands to some other independent entity is the key to a permanent solution of the recurring problems
   
3. While this can not happen alternatives have to be seriously thought upon to create a Transparent mechanism through which we can actually see through the allotment of work to everyone and decide whether the allocation is on fair grounds or unfair,,,,capacity of individuals is not hidden from the market. Today we are not able to call a Spade a Spade because of lack of availability of this data which Authority has full access to.
4. Without active participation from IRDA we can not move even an inch forward in resolving the issues.
   

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This message is from
Shailesh B. Shah
Insurance Surveyor / Loss Assessor
Vadodara Cell- 9824021192

please either mail me or sms me, describing purpose before calling. thanks

my profile -
http://groups.google.com/group/shailesh-b-shah-of-vadodara/browse_thread/thread/fde2e70fb8404cb9?hl=en_US
----------------------------------------------------
Winners Never Quit
----------------------------------------------------
"it is impossible for me to forget my first assurance of justness to the policy holders who have not suffered loss but are still contributing to payments made to those who have put up a legitimate claim"

[Sanjay Shaw]

Dear Sir,

strategic flow pattern of the the Indian Insurance Business sector are tending to ward the corporate concept where every service provider are in the question of the group bargain for the maintaainance of the break even point as well as solvency margin. THe marginal ratio of the both the points are dependent the respective reserved capital for the targetting year of the project plan.

In this tranision phenomena, as most of we and or Insurance professional are working under the inflence of such corporate bargain but we can not keep behind the individual Identity , which can not do struggle against such groups of concern i.e. car manufacturer/dealer network / broker network / e t c

I mean, neither companies nor insurers were sufficiently on top of the significant changes to corporate risk caused by the recent economic upheaval. if we digs much deeper into how risk is transferred from businesses to insurers and uncovers major flaws in how insurance is arranged. These flaws pose a real threat to the Insurance sector in India far greater than almost any business we talked to currently recognises The threat is particularly acute for individual and small group of companies  which represent the engine room of the Indian economy and the key to growth and recovery.

The system through which corporate insurance is arranged in our country prioritises, above all else, low (and declining) transaction costs, i.e. surveyor fees. This means relatively little time is devoted to getting the customer a reliable contract. This is understandable given the need for all businesses to keep costs in check. However, it ultimately leads to a low level of contract certainty. Given that the insurance industry, in its own words, “sells promises”, this is highly damaging for the customer. Not only does it undermine the perceived value of insurance, it also guarantees a position low down on the customers’ corporate agenda.

We should analyse, how this situation hurts everyone from insurers to surveyor and, in particular, well run businesses seeking security through insurance, which is matter of crisis now.

under this prevailing cercumtances it is the prime requirement for the all individual who ought to work with the concept of corporate in a consistant manaer of the individual identity. So that no Individuals will be souped by the bargain clutches of the existing unmatured corporate emergance in our country.

Therefore we should act as individuals but we should facilited with the corporate concept with common cost / efforts of utilities in a cost effective manner to maintain our solderity in a secure place.

in the existing circumtances, we do not have control among us to watch/ to give safe gaurd to our other brother who are getting empanel with certain confidential terms and situations. and that is why the non requirements the surveyor are capitalising day by day.

So to retain our solderirity / stability / securities we should required to do united force of act on developing the regulation of the mode of assessment basis in open transparent environment so that no employer wil dare to mis use us any more.

we hope we are in more opinion to proced further as our condition of empanel situationj is not at all fault of Insurer / IRDA but it is our inside fault that we should recover from it

with regards

Sanjay Shaw

[Vipul _69328]

Let me quote Anoopkumar's thought:

"It is for the individual to prove his capabilities before the
different insurance
companies and convince them that he is capable of delivering the
quality of services as demanded by them. "

How a buddy can prove his / her competence without even entering in a
insurance co. as paneled surveyor..
In my view all insurance companies should allow all licenced surveyor
to prove his/her competence. If he/she can't perform, he/she should be
removed after due consideration. Rather power of empanelment, there
should be power of de-panelment in the hands of insurance companies.

> >    - Categorization
> >    - Limitation of Departments
> >    - First Empanelment
> >    - De-panelling
> >    - Rotation of Work
> >    - Enhancement of Survey Fee Scedule
> >    - Un-warranted Cutting in Fee
> >    - Un-necessary discussions at various levels
> >    - Service Tax problems

[MAHENDRER LOKWANI]

[dmpanditrao]

Dear all ,

I know it is very difficult for a new entrant to this profession to earn a good living at present fee structure ( fee structure also must be regulated initially by IRDA and left the regulation of fees to IIISLA councils for IRDA portrays IIISLA as self regulating body.)

 

IIISLA should 'grow teeth' to be self regulating.For this IRDA who fathered IIISLA must nurture it in initial stages by supporting it against licensed Insurers for thier excesses against surveyor community.Present IIISLA council members can make a beginning 

to get a respectable fee structure by IRDA and ask for regulating it as self regulating body.

 

A Surveyor is not an employee unless he is enaged as salaried person.

Insurers also are not employees of Insuring public as insurance is subject of solicitation by principle .

Insurers cannot force Potential Insured to insure.It is only when Potential Insured pays premium as quoted/negotiated, to the Insurer  of his choice that the particular Insurer enters in to contract with the Potential Insured.

 

Likewise Insurers can take services of surveyor of their choice.The IRDA regulation comes handy here.

IRDA should see that every surveyor engaged by any Insurer is a licensed by IRDA by default as per  guidelines set by IRDA . 

 

No licensed surveyor has RIGHT to get assignment of survey job from any Insurer.In other words License does not empower him with RIGHT to get survey job.It only authorises him to do  work of Insurance surveyor.

Surveyors work can be likened to "Insurance policy" that is not forced on Insured.

Only a company licensed by IRDA can Insure any Insured.

As for issuing Insurance policy Insurance company must have License as prerequisite condition , a Surveyor must hold license to carry out Insurance survey ,as issued by IRDA.. 

It is for licensed surveyor through solicitation with Insurers by convincing it that he is available to offer his services as loss assessor.

And it is for this reason initial catagorisation by IRDA will comes handy for the Insurers to have their choice of surveyor based on availability when required.

However the problems confronting licensed surveyors can be referred to IRDA if IIISLA councils fail.

It is implied that the body- IIISLA council -that orgnised surveyors should be self regulating and commands power to redress the grievances of members with Insurers/Insureds/IRDA etc.

 

- dmpanditrao / surveyor / Kolhapur / 9371103624

[S. Anoop Kumar]

Dear Mr. Vipul,

Every one surveyor had to struggle to get the first claim of his
career. I remember how I relished and rejoiced when I was allotted a
claim for the first time by New India Insurance Co. And then the
next claim and the next. Everytime I received a first claim from a
different insurance company, a branch or a DO or the RO, I was feeling
happy for I was able break the resistance and gain an entry against
stiff competition. And then I never looked back. But every first
claim from one insurance company, from it's branch, DO or HO was not
without continuous hard efforts and follow ups. I was elated when
one after other insurance companies called me to allot a survey job
and when some insurance officials appreciated my reports.

Today I do not visit the insurance companies seeking survey jobs but I
still get them. Not in bundles. And I get claims where the
insurance companies feel that I am best suited for the particular
job.

So the new surveyors also will find a way of gaining entry into the
insurance companies. And they will certainly get a chance to prove
themselves. It is a question of making a space for themselves and
leaving a mark. And they only can do it for themselves. Not
others. It is the same for everybody.

The surveyors who are struggling to get an entry today may be a
leading surveyors of tomorrow. And tomorrow there would yet another
new entrant trying to gain an entry.

Regards,
S. Anoop Kumar.

[Naresh Kukkar]

Dear Anoop Ji,
I agree with you that every body has to create its own space, and
thrill of achievement comes with it. But what I recommend is
empanalment should be open. Work depends upon person's skill and
capacity.
Naresh Kukkar

[shailesh shah]

permit me to come in. Hence BIGGER questions are;

1. how to judge the skill and capacity of a surveyor
2. who should judge it
3. why would the insurers believe in a Third party's judgment, when
the powers to appoint surveyors still rest with them as per current
law

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[Virender Kumar Chopra]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: sidharth magoon <magoon...@yahoo.com>
Date: 30 June 2011 17:45
Subject: Fw: Fwd: surveyor's empanelment
To: "virenderk...@gmail.com" <virenderk...@gmail.com>

Somewhere I have read "Surveyors are ears & eyes of the insurers" but in my opinion,we are reduced to " hearing aids & contact lenses" which can be replaced for any problem/fault of ears & eyes.

Jogesh Kumar Magoon 

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Virender Kumar Chopra <virenderk...@gmail.com>

To: insurance-su...@googlegroups.com; iiisl...@googlegroups.com; keep-in-touch-su...@googlegroups.com; punjabs...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 8:59 PM
Subject: Fwd: surveyor's empanelment

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Virender Kumar Chopra <virenderk...@gmail.com>

Date: 28 June 2011 20:35
Subject: Re: surveyor's empanelment
To: insurance-su...@googlegroups.com

Dear Mr Anoop

 

You are very correct when you say that the insurers has every right to chose the surveyor on merits proved by his previous experience.  What I wanted to say in my mail is - when a license is issued to a person, he does not have any credentials with him.  If that person is never empanelled by any of the insurers, how the insurers could judge his capabilities.  So he will never be empanelled.

 

My idea is when a license is issued to a person, he should automatically be empanelled by all the insurers.  Now if any company wants to utilize his services, it can do so without any hassle.  The insurers can judge the new entrant only when he is given some jobs.  And if a Company does not want to allot jobs, it is their wish.

 

The main idea is - the officers, who want to allot jobs to a particular surveyor, should not feel handicaped due to Empanelment.

 

Regards

 

Virender Kumar Chopra

Surveyor & Loss Assessor

Ludhiana

91-98147-06506

On 28 June 2011 17:03, Satwinder Singh <babloo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Fully agree with Shri. Anoop ji. Grant of License does not guarantee anything.

The Insurer in its own right has the discretion to choose "its ears & eyes"; i.e- surveyor.

Satwinder Singh

> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 20:58:04 -0700

> Subject: Re: surveyor's empanelment

> From: s.anoo...@gmail.com
> To: insurance-su...@googlegroups.com

>
> Dear Mr. Naresh Kukkar,
>
> They are areas I may have to differ with some of you. Granting SLA
> License to an individual by IRDA or the erstwhile Controller of

> Insurance does not amount to guarantee of employment. It is for the

> individual to prove his capabilities before the different insurance
> companies and convince them that he is capable of delivering the

> Regards,
> S. Anoop Kumar.
>
>

> On Jun 27, 2:20 pm, Naresh Kukkar <nku...@gmail.com> wrote:

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