Re: Accidental external means

[S. Anoop Kumar]

Dear All,

All the members who are eagerly offering their opinions are advised to first seek clarification from the information seeker if he is seeking the information from the members to really know the answers or if he has already decided on the answer (without caring for your reply) and there is the threat that you may be branded as a person seeking cheap popularity.  This is just my caution to the members based on my previous experience with the information seeker.  Unknowingly, you may land yourself in great embarrassment.  

Regards, 

S. Anoop Kumar.  

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 8:48:33 PM UTC+5:30, jparmar wrote:

Dear friends

Any accidental occurrence which is  visible may called accidental external means- In my opinion.

jagdish parmar

---

From: Sanjeev Agrawal <sanje...@gmail.com>
To: sandipon_dutta <sandipo...@yahoo.co.in>
Cc: Dulal Das <dula...@gmail.com>; chandra dasaraju <dasara...@gmail.com>; Dadu Narayanareddy <dadunara...@gmail.com>; krishna reddy <pvkre...@gmail.com>; S. Anoop <s.anoo...@gmail.com>; iiislanortheast@googlegroups.com; Surendra Babu Rao <jsb...@gmail.com>; "iiisla-bengal@googlegroups.com" <iiisla-bengal@googlegroups.com>; Daljeet Singh <dalje...@gmail.com>; Insurance Surveyors India <insurance-surveyors-india@googlegroups.com>; djsarmah_2004 <djsarm...@yahoo.co.in>; Nitul Kotoki <nitul...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 25 January 2016 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: Accidental external means

also known as horse cum tralior. if both portion are insured then payable.here pr. cause is breaking of coupling and for horse tanker is external mmeans

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 2:05 PM, sandipon_dutta <sandipo...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear
Dulal Da

Confusion between internal & external means. It is ssen sometimes the Bullet Gas carrier trailer truck load tank got detached from the coupling and made the cabin cum prime mover damage totally.

If we take the accidental means Externally the claim to prime mover is not payable as the load tank is the part of the vehicle indured.

But to my view the claim is payable because the prime mover got damage lonely by extrrnal means impact of the tank.

Damages due to wear and tear or broken of parts for mechanical failure, we may explain as Internal means (Sugest). However in some accident damages it is not easy to differenciate.

Sandipon Dutta.
Sivasagar (Assam)




Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Sanjeev Agrawal <sanje...@gmail.com>
Date:01/25/2016 12:02 AM (GMT+05:30)
To: Dulal Das <dula...@gmail.com>
Cc: chandra dasaraju <dasara...@gmail.com>, Dadu Narayanareddy <dadunara...@gmail.com>, krishna reddy <pvkre...@gmail.com>, "S. Anoop" <s.anoo...@gmail.com>, iiislanortheast@googlegroups.com, jsb...@gmail.com, iiisla...@googlegroups.com, Daljeet Singh <dalje...@gmail.com>, Insurance Surveyors India <insurance-surveyors-india@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Accidental external means

acidental internal means--Breakdown or material faliure due to fatigue or end of life

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Dulal Das <dula...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Shri Rajuji,

Thanks for clarifying the matter which I do believe will not add to the confusion but definitely reduce substantially if not fully.
In fact, words have more scope for interpretations than I can visualize. Just to be on the safe line, external (means)/ means are disseminated.
It is reiterated, in my opinion, your views stand to the point.
Thanks,

D C Das

On Jan 24, 2016 6:00 AM, "Chandrasekhara Raju" <dasara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sir,

"Accidental External Means" is an expression by which the policy tried to express its intention of coverage of "result" that is the (probability of ) damage sustained by the IV of the policy.  Though it is confusing and often leads to contradictions; one needs to visualise the exact meaning by following the expression of the wording.  The confusion many times leads to counter questions like; then what is internal; and there were lengthy discussions in the group mails also.

Some opined that the passengers when they are inside the vehicle, and a load in the load body become "internal" and hence any damage caused due to such occupation of space of the IV does not qualify to be covered under the peril.  Ofcourse I differed, and still continue to differ for my concept and understanding is clear (no confusion here! sorry to disappoint you).  No other element other than what constitutes an IV represented by its ULW; can be considered as becoming part of that IV or internal.

In fact, the counter questions like as to what is internal is irrelevant for the simple fact that the 'External' in the "Accidental External Means" is not a single word or punctuated.  'External Means' has the effect of of  a single word (or expression), which is further qualified with the term 'Accidental'. The meaning I understand from the expression is; the damage (or the result which forms the basis for the claim) should have been caused by 'External Means' (and not external in physical sense), which again should be 'Accidental' in nature. 

To the inquisitive mind (yes. one should be so, then only we can focus, discuss and conclude); my observation or response to 'then what is internal'; Any thing and every thing that an IV is expected to perform.  It is expected to start, run as per navigation, carry inmates, load from place to place and so on.

I hope I have cleared some of the confusion; or may be added more to the confusion; it is for the learned readers to conclude and respond.

Regards,

dcs raju, hyderabad.

+91-99490-95995.  

On Saturday, January 23, 2016 at 9:04:41 PM UTC+5:30, DD wrote:

Absolutely correct Sir. And you refused to be confused!
To not to get confused dissemination of the accidental event will lead to the proximate cause of loss.
External / accidental (means)/ means - in this order , the operation has to be carried out like a surgeon.
Anyway, the judgement part is a beautiful piece of confession.
It is a masterpiece to agree with superior in position without diluting one's view. A lot is learnt...

D C Das

On Jan 23, 2016 11:40 AM, "Sanjeev Agrawal" <sanje...@gmail.com> wrote:

first concept should be cleared about proximate cause

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 9:57 PM, nirmal tripathi <nirmal....@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Respected sri Dulal ji

We are anxiously awaiting welcome you at Allahabad with your presentation .It will
definitely blow our state of mind and community will gain a lot.
SANGAM KI NAGRI ALLAHABAD welcomes all the trend setters ,faculty and think tank of
community.

With warm regards!

Your's Truly

Nirmal Tripathi
Surveyor,Kanpur(U.P.)


On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:32:25 +0530 Dulal Das wrote

>Dear All,



There is a seminar on “Accidental
external means”. Let us get confused from following:

 

On Accidental Results and Accidental means
by a judge (Not of India). This is from a write up of 1958!

 

The
confusion and uncertainty can best be illustrated by quoting from portions of the opinion
of the
Court of Appeal for Orleans Parish in the case of Brackman v. National Life
& Accident Ins. Co., 5 So.2d 565 (La. App. 1942), wherein it was stated by Judge Janvier:
"The distinction is a very fine one, and we are not
all certain that we, ourselves, clearly understand it, or that we could,
under any given state of facts, determine with reasonable conviction just
whether it is the means or the result which is accidental. But we are forced to recognize
that
there is a distinction because our Supreme Court has said so." Id.
at 567. Again, "we would find it hard to reconcile that result [in
the Brown case] with the one reached in the Parker case, were it
not for the fact that the court itself found no conflict." Id. at
569. And finally, "we cheerfully, though rather confusedly, accept the
doctrine of the Landress case and the Parker case, that there is a distinction -between
accidental means and an accidental result . . . . [T]here is respectable authority for the
view that even the
distinction recognized in the Landress and the Parker cases is a spurious
one." Id. at 570.

 

Happy Confusion to all (This is an
external means to try to get you confused, however, if you are confused, it is
not accidental).




D C DAS






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[Ashok Kumar Singh.]

Respected all,

I am also agree with the views of Sh. D.C.S. Raju ji. He is saying absolutely right. 

Explanation For this type cases

Internal causes:- wear & tear damages, mechanical & electrical damages due to continuous uses.

External cause:- Any accidental damages loss is covered under Own Damage section of insurance policy, which resulting occurred  After a mechanical breakdown fault.

Example, 1 :- If a vehicle is running & suddenly steering tie rod / end piece of the vehicle get broken & resulting due to it  vehicle get unbalanced & rolled out on the road then

Proximate cause of accident:- Mechanical failure in the vehicle,  Steering system breakdown (internal part & breakdown due to wear & tear).

Then loss of steering is not covered but rest all accidental damages will covered under the insurance policy.

Example 2:- If vehicle is running & suddenly its tyre get burst & resulting that vehicle get unbalanced & again hit with another vehicle.

Proximate cause:- Tyre burst (internal part & burst due to wear & tear)

Then loss of tyre is not covered but rest all accidental damages will covered under the insurance policy.

I am also attaching here  a paragraph in Hindi language of a Motor Insurance Book of Insurance Institute of India.

With regards,

Ashok Kumar Singh.

Surveyor & Loss Assessor.

Greater Noida, U.P..

201308. 

03.02.2016.

     

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 9:07:52 PM UTC+5:30, S. Anoop Kumar wrote:

Dear All,

All the members who are eagerly offering their opinions are advised to first seek clarification from the information seeker if he is seeking the information from the members to really know the answers or if he has already decided on the answer (without caring for your reply) and there is the threat that you may be branded as a person seeking cheap popularity.  This is just my caution to the members based on my previous experience with the information seeker.  Unknowingly, you may land yourself in great embarrassment.  

Regards, 

S. Anoop Kumar.  

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 8:48:33 PM UTC+5:30, jparmar wrote:

Dear friends

Any accidental occurrence which is  visible may called accidental external means- In my opinion.

jagdish parmar

---

From: Sanjeev Agrawal <sanje...@gmail.com>
To: sandipon_dutta <sandipo...@yahoo.co.in>

Cc: Dulal Das <dula...@gmail.com>; chandra dasaraju <dasara...@gmail.com>; Dadu Narayanareddy <dadunara...@gmail.com>; krishna reddy <pvkre...@gmail.com>; S. Anoop <s.anoo...@gmail.com>; iiislan...@googlegroups.com; Surendra Babu Rao <jsb...@gmail.com>; "iiisla...@googlegroups.com" <iiisla...@googlegroups.com>; Daljeet Singh <dalje...@gmail.com>; Insurance Surveyors India <insurance-su...@googlegroups.com>; djsarmah_2004 <djsarm...@yahoo.co.in>; Nitul Kotoki <nitul...@gmail.com>

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