Re: Query in Neon Sign Insurance Policy

[rlagspl]

Dear Sir,

The subject loss as described by you falls under exclusion clause d and thus is not admissible.

Regards
 
O. P. Agarwal
R. L. Agarwal Surveyors Pvt.  Ltd.
144, Nehru Apartments,
Outer Ring Road,
Kalka Ji,
New  Delhi--110019.
Mob: 0-9810129056
Off: 011-26292240  /  40575956
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E-Mail: rla...@bol.net.in
             rla...@gmail.com

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Pawan Kumar Bhola <pawan.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All

A Neon Sign Board, covered under Neon Sign Insurance Policy fallen down due to heavy storm. The scope of coverage and exclusion of the policy is as under. Whether the loss is covered or not

SECTION I – LOSS OR DAMAGE

Loss or Damage to Neon Sign  described in the Schedule hereto.

a)    by accidental external means or

b)   by fire and/or lightning and/or external explosion and/or theft or

c)    by malicious act.

PROVIDED THAT the Company shall not be liable to make any payment under this section in respect of

a)            The fusing or burning out of any Bulbs and/or Tubes arising from Short-circuiting or arcing or any other mechanical or electrical breakdown or faults.

b)           Depreciation and/or wear and tear due to any cause whatsoever.

c)            Mechanical or electrical breakdown failures or breakages and/or over-running and/or over-heating  and/overloading or strain.

d)           The action of sun, rain, hail, flood, bad weather or other atmospheric conditions.

e)           Terrorism and sabotage activities.

 

--
Pawan K. Bhola
CHANDIGARH

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[Dilip Panditrao]

dear all,

I defer with the view in trailing mail as the exclusions exclude 'storm'.

I invite comments from senior members as the insureds right is at stake.One needs to realy read through lines and words before declining any claim
- dmpanditrao/9371103624

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[Shailesh Shah]

If pawan can share full policy wording it wud be better

[Anokhilal Ratola]

The said loss falls under exclusion as mentioned, hence not payable.

Thanks and regards,

For A L Ratola Surveyors 

      Reckon Lab & Surveyors

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Gandhidham-370201, Dist. Kutch, Gujarat [India]
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[bhatia...@gmail.com]

Groverji
Which exclusion loss is due falling which by exterrnal means

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From: Anokhilal Ratola <alra...@gmail.com>

Sender: insurance...@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 09:53:22 +0530

To: insurance_surveyors<insurance...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: insurance...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {Surveyors:18949} Re: Query in Neon Sign Insurance Policy

[mohan israni]

Dear Mr. Dilip Panditrao,

The condition "d" under exclusions is quite clear on this aspect, since it clearly indicates that any loss due to bad weather and other atmospheric conditions" will be excluded from the scope of policy. In my opinion, this exclusion is verywell included in the said policy, since the neon lights and such decorations or displays are expected to be well protected from bad weather or changing atmospheric conditions. Good Wishes                         Mohan Israni  

[shaileshbshah]

Dear Mr Rao 

What is your specific point of view bcoz wording is very clear.

May be uou don't fit in the storm in this expression of bad weather. U must have some precedence to this view. Please share your experiences. 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

[Prem Chandra Shukla]

A very interesting query regarding storm loss in case of Glow Sign board with diverse views of our learned friends. I am on Mr.Bhatia side that this loss does not fall under any of the exclusions referred therto. First let’s see the coverage and exclusion again under Neon Sign Insurance Policy:-

SECTION I – LOSS OR DAMAGE

Loss or Damage to Neon Sign described in the Schedule hereto.

a)    by accidental external means or

b)   by fire and/or lightning and/or external explosion and/or theft or

c)    by malicious act.

PROVIDED THAT the Company shall not be liable to make any payment under this section in respect of

a)            The fusing or burning out of any Bulbs and/or Tubes arising from Short-circuiting or arcing or any other mechanical or electrical breakdown or faults.

b)           Depreciation and/or wear and tear due to any cause whatsoever.

c)            Mechanical or electrical breakdown failures or breakages and/or over-running and/or over-heating  and/overloading or strain.

d)                  The action of sun, rain, hail, flood, bad weather or other atmospheric conditions.

GENERAL EXCEPTION APPLICABLE TO BOTH THE SECTION I & II

3.Any accident loss damage and/or liability directly or indirectly proximately or remotely occasioned by or contributed to by or traceable to or arising out of or in connection with flood, typhoon, hurricane, tornado, volcanic eruption, earthquake or  other convulsion of nature

It is a named peril policy. Surprisingly the peril of “Accidental External Means” is associated with moving subject matter e.g vehicle or TV on trolley etc. It is a kind of blanket cover. So a glow sign falling due to storm clearly confirm the operation of this peril.  

The main exclusion referred for non-admissibility of this claim is action of bad weather or other atmospheric conditions. 

If you read this exclusion not in isolation it clearly indicates to exclude “action” I,e effect of sun ,rain, hail, flood including bad weather, as neon sign/ glow sign  boards are exposed to these actions or affect unlike other subject matters.  Storm is a defined peril in insurance subject and if excluded should have been clearly mentioned with flood, tornado, hurricane in general exclusion-3. The policy drafter does not need to use words like bad weather or atmospheric condition to exclude storm.

So we should go by the spirit  of policy coverage and by our interpretation as rightly pointed out by Mr.Bhatia

Regards,

P.C. Shukla| Surveyors & Loss Adjusters|Surveyors India

| 117/H-1/125| Pandu Nagar| Kanpur| Uttar Pradesh - 208005| INDIA

| Tel: +91-512-2216416 | Tel/Fax: +91-512-2231409| Mobile: +91 9415044156  

 

 

 

On Monday, December 2, 2013 10:22:58 PM UTC+5:30, rohila praveen wrote:

Sir, 

The loss is covered if there is any coverage under fire policy.

Praveen Rohila

On Monday, 2 December 2013 12:57 PM, Pankaj Srivastava <panka...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sir

If due to short circuit in switch board, the neon sign board caught fire than it will cover or not? 

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Chand Bhatia <bhatia...@gmail.com> wrote:

The reason of damaged due to falling and not due to normal weather conditions, which is the basic intentions of the exclusion. The damage due to external means is covered. In my opinion benefit of doubt must be given to insured. 

More views invited.

C K BHATIA

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:16 AM, rlagspl <rla...@gmail.com> wrote:

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c k bhatia
09810231248

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Thanks

Pankaj Srivastava

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[Shailesh Shah]

Shuklaji in india terms like bad weather are not widely used but in other parts of world bad weather is a widely used phrase and a distinction is drawn with stfi perils through that.

I would personally advice it's high time india comes up with proper definitions of tge terms in use and its generally acceptable meaning.
It's the task of institute.

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[Chand Bhatia]

Dear Shailesh

India can not be compared with other countries for various reasons, education level, law enforcement machinery, delay in getting justice and above of all in corrupt practices. One fact alone speaks all about the situation that surveyor and insurance companies in India concentrate more on findinf a way to deny the claim and twist the terms and conditions. Biggest of example is definition of "CONSEQUENTIAL LOSS" which is not understood by what to say of surveyors even insurance company officials. Look at the way IDV clause in motor survey is being abused. 

In case of neon light also the spirit of the exclusion due to bad weather is not that storm should be considered to be bad weather. If that would have been spirit, storm would have been directly named for. The spirit is weathering of the neon light under normal weather fluctuation if they fluctuate beyond normal. and average conditions. 

I am very sure no insurance company in India shall dare to reject the claim, unless he gets a clear and firm opinionand signature of the surveyor and that is what surveyor will happily do. 

C K BHATIA

[amar kant jha]

Dear Sir,

Conditions in which you have tried to laid down INDIA, Can you explain, in which part of the world / country ALL are maintained as per your standard.

Sir, Kindly do go so much of negative thought.

I want to know  WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY BAD WEATHER. What all effect you expect in bad weather.

Amar Kant Jha

 0933-47-84485

PATNA

08.12.13

[Shailesh Shah]

Well Bhatiaji
With times changing fast such issues should be highlighted more often to find space in decision making talks on table of irda and gic, lest iiisla if the leaders find time.

[Ankit Dhawan]

We should discuss our 64 UM with Arvind Kejriwal

[mohan israni]

Dear Mr. Chand Bhatia,

At the outset I must state, that your generalising the attitude of all the Surveyors of our fraternity by indicating that"One fact alone speaks all about the situation that surveyor and insurance companies in India concentrate more on finding a way to deny the claim and twist the terms and conditions" is totally unreasonable and wrong, specially when it is comming from a very senior person like you. In my opinion, the attitude of the majority of we surveyors is to help the party who has genuinely suffered the loss due to calamity covered under the policy.One fails to understand, why a surveyor would like to avoid recommending or denying the claim if it is genuine, unless ofcourse he has misunderstood the indemnity clause in the policy or he has some wrong motive in his mind!!!.

 

Now comming back to our actual topic of the loss of outdoor Neon lights by storm, in my opinion the logical approach to claim will be to understand the true meaning of the Natural Calamity of any kind that is excluded clearly in the policy exclusions by stating "the action of sun, rain, hail, flood, typhoon,hurricane, tarnado, volcanic eruption, earthquacke, bad weather or other atmospheric conditions or other convulsions of the nature. In this kind of .wording in the exclusion clause, where is the need for further mentioning the word Storm, which is obviously covered ?? However, if there is still the necessity of clarification on this word Storm, which is not specifically mentioned in exclusions, I feel the query can be forwarded to HO-Engg of any of the Insurance Companies, who should be able to clarify authentically.

With above understanding of the exclusion clause, and also the idemnity clause in the policy, in my opinion the claim is excluded. Best Wishes                          Mohan Israni          

[Chand Bhatia]

Dear Mr Mohan Israni

If I have made a statement, I have certainly made it with responsibility. If I take your statement then I can quote an act of surveyor from a city of yours by a surveyor as senior as you. To brief the facts, an excavator tilted due to a land slide. The operator jumped out of it fearing the entire machine going down the valley. The engine remained started and seized and busted due to starvation of the lubrication. I surveyed the claim and advised for the admissibility. The claim was also inspected by RO Engineer. Later claim was processed and recommended for approval by Branch, DO, RO to HO as the claim was for HO Limit. HO deputed another surveyor, who charged Rs. 1 lac fees in total. He wrote in his report that though the claim apparently looks to be mechanical failure, but looking at the chain of events the cause is earth sliding underneath the machine. Insurance Officials took a hard stand and surveyor obliged to issue addendum that loss is due to mechanical failure. What will you say for this opinion. Even more interesting, the policy was a motor policy and the surveyor was not categorised in Motor department, in gross violation of the Code of COnduct. What will you remark on such an opinion of the surveyor. I am still preserving those documents and if you permit me I can present it on the board. 

I have recently come again a similar case where surveyor has opined similarly under the pressure of Insurers and rejected the claim. I am separately placing on the board for the opinion of the members. 

Thanks and regards

C K BHATIA 

[Shailesh Shah]

Bhatiaji may share the case on board for our knowledge.

[Shailesh Shah]

The whole discussion has dragged us to know another fundamental point hinted by mohan here and that is
"Intent of the insurer" because it is the privilege of the underwriter to clear their intention and they r the one who will have to face music.  If they choose to deny itis their conscious choice and privilege too.

From surveyors view point enough is deliberated now.

Let's leave it here for readers now to decide on their own.

[Chand Bhatia]

case is explained in total. 

C K BHATIA

[mohan israni]

Dear Mr. C K Bhatia,

It is interesting to go through your trailing mail reply to my mail dt. 9th instant, where in I merely expressed regret for your generalising a serious issue by indicating every surveyor along with Insurance officers/staff being corrupt. But instead of apologising politely, you have come up with a motor claim of the year 2003, which is alsmost 10 years old, and you were the final surveyor. Your main grudge in the said claim was, that you being so knowledgeable and senior, how did the Insurance company dare to depute more senior surveyor from Mumbai, specially when he was not even the motor surveyor !!!!!.

Here, initially let me enlighten you, that the surveyor who was deputed to examine the loss of the Hydraulic Excavator, never accepted the job as a surveyor, but was then advised to proceed as a Consultant/Expert. Please go through his report if you can get a copy from the concerned Haldwani DO. Besides he has not recommended the claim in any way except for furnishing the details of the accident, the extent of damage and other essential details mostly coinciding with most of your furnished details in the report. It was clearly concluded in the report, as we remember clearly, that the Insurer had to take their decision on the admissibility or rejection of the claim, since the concerned person had gone as a consultant or as an engineering expert..

As for the bill of Rs. 1 lac raised by the Mumbai Surveyor on the subject claim, I am sure you are not very serious; since the Service Tax claimed on the professional charges and the expenses were merely Rs. 2560/-; please calculate the amount of fees with expenses to arrive at Rs. 1 lac with some formula !!!!! .

But since you have indicated to bring the same on the board to expose some one, you may go a head, if it satisfies your ego. Good Wishes                        Mohan Israni 

 

P. S :In my opinion, this matter will un-necessarly waste a useful time of our fraternity, who have to concentrate more on the Insurance Bill and other important matters concerning our professional institute and hence it is felt necessary that you may communicate directly to only those, including our friend Mr. Dinesh Saxena and Grish chandra Joshi, who were directly involved in the said claim.             

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c k bhatia
09810231248

[Chand Bhatia]

Dear Mr Israni

The issue that came up for discussion of fraternity was that majority surveyors have started misinterpreting the policy condition to the convenience of the insurers. Since you objected to that I should not generalise the same. I then pleaded with you that the even surveyors, who are seniors and should be an example to juniors like me and should be light, also get slipped. The issue was not at all why another surveyor was deputed. If my mail hurt the senior surveyor in any way. I am willing to withdraw my remarks. But I certainly insist that if surveyors want to contest for their independence, then they have to work also independently. You can contest with words, you must work with actions. 

Thanks and regards

C K BHATIA   

[mohan israni]

Dear Mr. Chand Bhatia,

Thanks for the immediate response but can not revert back at this juncture, since 2 heavy claims running in crores (Both claims Rs. 30 crores + ) are being briefed to me by the Insurers and  hence likely to be busy for a couple of days. Best Wishes                      Mohan Israni

[jqmalik]

Yes it is excluded under "d"

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[Chand Bhatia]

Qayoom Bhai

I think the opinion expressed deserves to be reviewed. In India the mind set of surveyors is to interpret the clauses in favour of Insurers only, but I don't know if it is so even at other countries also. I am expressing my opinion in the claim and request that the same may be discussed on these points also. 

The claim as such is stated that the sign board fell due to storm. This is important that the damages have occured not due to storm, but falling of it. Now the exclusion states, "The action of sun, rain, hail, flood, bad weather or other atmospheric conditions." If we see the spirit of these esclusions(the law is seen with spirit and not with words alone) perils like sun, rain, hail, flood or bad weather or atmospheric conditions (Temperature and humadity variations) cause a loss of its own. I define them to be weathering of the neon lights over a period of time, like Sun, Rain will not cause instantaneous damaged. These exclusions are intended that weather conditions may change the performance of NEON Board, without physically damaging it. This is infact mounts that the board is not able to withstand the conditions in which this is exposed to. In a way, I consider that the board is bound to weather and wear and age with the circumstances it is working and the main causes of weathering, wearing and aging are due to Sun, Rain, Atmosphere Weather changes etc., Since this has to happen to Neon boards over a period, the damages are not accidental and fortuitous in nature, which is a fundamental basis of any Insurance. This exclusion is just worded to prevent indemnity which is not fortuitous, but natural. 

But the storm causing uprooting of the board, causing it to fall and then getting damaged, is very much accidental, fortuitous in nature. The exclusion 'd' is not intended to deny such loss. In my opinion the present claim should be considered payable under loss due to  external reasons.

Request members to review the opinion with this point of view also. The case is not so crystal clear as opined on denial, then why the benefit of doubt should not be given to insured. 

C K BHATIA

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[Manoj Thakur]

Dea all,

Neon sign board covered under SKI policy.

What would be policy excess.

 

With Regards,
Manoj
Surveyor
=================
Ward No.-12
(Near clinic of Dr. Tigga)
Kashipur, Samastipur.
BIHAR - 848101
m - 09430242715
      09973594677

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