ELECTRICAL CLAUSE B

[qpmalik]

Dear brothers,

Another study case.

There are 2 school of thoughts on the issue of electrical clause B.

1. Electrical breakdown can not be treated as fire and there must be
an actual fire to recover claim under electrical clause B.

2. Loss due to electrical breakdown in any electrical machine/
component/appliance etc is as a result of overrunning, excessive
pressure, voltage surges, etc is recoverable under electrical clause
B.

For example an electric motor stator winding flashed out which
required to be rewound. The loss is not recoverable under opinion 1
where as it is recoverable under opinion 2.

Plz. comment

Qayyum Pervez

[chandra dasaraju]

Dear Sir, Under which policy the discussion is initiated may be clarified.  Electrical break down is under specific exclusion under fire policy, while it is covered under Machinery Break Down Policy (Machinery Insurance).    -with regards, D.CHANDRASEKHARA RAJU Hyderabad.  +91-9949095995. --- On Tue, 4/21/09, qpmalik <jqm...@gmail.com> wrote:

[javed malik]

To grant cover against additional peril in standard fire policy to cover losses to electrical appliances/equipments/fittings/fixtures by short circuiting etc electrical clause B is inserted by charging additional premium. Please go through electrical clause B if you have it in india otherwise I may scan and post here.

Qayyum

[ASAR]

Dear SIr,                      I am happy to have a member out of India.  At present, there was no extended cover for electrical perils.  However, New India had released a inter office memo for excluding the dynamo clause by charging additional premium.  I will place the details on receipt of the details from them.  Members having information regarding the same from other companies may give the details in the forum   ASAR    -------Original Message-------

[Deepak Bhan]

Dear Qayyum

Let me explain through the very example of an electric motor you have
referred to in your query.

Case 1: The winding gets damaged due to short circuiting and the
short-circuit did not result into a fire. In such an eventuality the
loss to winding falls within the scope of a Breakdown Cover and can
not be claimed under Fire insurance


Case 2: The winding gets damaged due to short circuiting and the
short-circuit results into a fire in which the motor casing and rotor
shaft are damaged due to direct flames and / or heat of such fire. In
such an eventuality the loss to winding shall fall within the scope of
a Breakdown Cover while as the damage to casing and rotor shaft can be
claimed under Fire insurance. Alternatively one can state for the
scenario depicted in Case 2 that if Breakdown as well a a Fire
insurance cover exists then the winding gets paid under MB cover and
can not be paid under Fire cover and at the same time the casing and
rotor shaft shall be payable only under Fire cover and not under a MB
cover.

I hope this feedback is of help to you.

Regards

Deepak K Bhan

[Rafiq Ahmed Shah]

Dear Deepak Bhan ,
Kindly further explain t6he case 2 . Why in case of
damages reluting in flame (Fire ) the winding is still paid under MBD
policy . Cannot all the damages be paid under fire policy only . Plz
quote the relevent Terms & Conditions of the policy if possible . If
the claims is paid under two policies are two policy clauses under
individual policy applicable . Plz reply

--
Rafiq Ahmad Shah
Surveyor / Loss Adjuster

[chan...@indiatimes.com]

Shortly this problem would be over, as IRDA has asked the Insurance compsny to re-introduce the 'delation of Dynamo Clause' by charging extra premium. With this such losses would stand covered under F & SP policy; provided Insured has taken cover for this.
chandak gm

--
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[Rajendra Naidu]

Hi,

Tata AIG & Bajaj  have applied to IRDA for add on cover for deletion of Eletrical Clause under the Standerd Fire Policy , the PSU's are adopting a wait & watch position.


Currently any charing due to exclusion under the Dynamo Clause is not covered.

Regards

Rajendra Naidu
V.P.
Prudent Insurance Brokers Pvt. Ltd.
Bangalore

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:36 PM, qpmalik <jqm...@gmail.com> wrote:

[javed malik]

Dear brother.

 

Thanks

I believe you have reached on right conclusion.

The so called "dynamo exclusion clause" is called "electrical clause A" here and to delete it by paying an additional premium they replace it with "electrical clause B" You may find both the clauses in "Fire insurance law and claims" published by "Chartered Institute of loss adjusters" UK.

 

Regards!

 

Qayyum

[javed malik]

Thanks for comments Mr. Bhatia. Your comments appears to be logical.  Very soon I would present both the electrical clauses here. I hope you will go through and comment again.

 

Regards!

 

Qayyum

[javed malik]

Dear brother,

 

Difference of opinions are being witnessed here.

Plz. can you post the "deletion of dynamo clause" here as evidence so that we all may go through it.

I am also going to post electrical clause A and B both very soon

 

Qayyum

[javed malik]

Dear brother

 

Good question if i am allowed to make comment although I am not the addressee."Because the stator winding is damaged at first instance by means of electrical breakdown" At 2nd stage it produced flames and set the fire up. I think there is combustible material in the motor in shape of sleaves, leatherites, varnish, cotton tapes and insulation tapes which also bunr at very high temperature.

 

Qayyum

[Adjuster Sainani]

Although I feel the discusision is going in on full swing, we need to
see :

1) The Arcing / Flash Over is a Fire.
2) What is the Proximate cause of II stage of fire.

On Apr 23, 5:59 pm, javed malik <jqma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear brother
>
> Good question if i am allowed to make comment although I am not the
> addressee."Because the stator winding is damaged at first instance by means
> of electrical breakdown" At 2nd stage it produced flames and set the fire
> up. I think there is combustible material in the motor in shape of sleaves,
> leatherites, varnish, cotton tapes and insulation tapes which also bunr at
> very high temperature.
>
> Qayyum
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Rafiq Ahmed Shah <
>

> sabrhassocia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Deepak Bhan ,
> >                   Kindly further explain t6he case 2 . Why in case of
> > damages reluting in flame (Fire ) the winding is still paid under MBD
> > policy . Cannot all the damages be paid under fire policy only . Plz
> > quote the relevent Terms & Conditions of the policy if possible . If
> > the claims is paid under two policies are two policy clauses under
> > individual policy applicable . Plz reply
>

> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Deepak Bhan <deepakkb...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> > > Dear Qayyum
>
> > > Let me explain through the very example of an electric motor you have
> > > referred to in your query.
>
> > > Case 1: The winding gets damaged due to short circuiting  and the
> > > short-circuit did not result into a fire. In such an eventuality the
> > > loss to winding falls within the scope of a Breakdown Cover and can
> > > not be claimed under Fire insurance
>
> > > Case 2: The winding gets damaged due to short circuiting  and the
> > > short-circuit results into a fire in which the motor casing and rotor
> > > shaft are damaged due to direct flames and / or heat of such fire. In
> > > such an eventuality the loss to winding shall fall within the scope of
> > > a Breakdown Cover while as the damage to casing and rotor shaft can be
> > > claimed under Fire insurance. Alternatively one can state for the
> > > scenario depicted in Case 2 that if Breakdown as well a a Fire
> > > insurance cover exists then the winding gets paid under MB cover and
> > > can not be paid under Fire cover and at the same time the casing and
> > > rotor shaft shall be payable only under Fire cover and not under a MB
> > > cover.
>
> > > I hope this feedback is of help to you.
>
> > > Regards
>
> > > Deepak K Bhan
>

[qpmalik]

Dear brother,

Arcing/flashover is not a fire with in the meaning of term used in
fire Policy even if it gives flame/light and heat.
2nd stage proximate cause is arcing.

My opinion and I always respect other's


Qayyum

On Apr 23, 7:44 pm, Adjuster Sainani <adjustersain...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > > Surveyor / Loss Adjuster- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Deepak Bhan]

Dear Rafiq

In Case 2, the winding has to be paid under MB because the proximate
cause of damage is breakdown and not fire. Subsequent damage to casing
and rotor shaft due to the fire post breakdown is damage attributable
to fire and thus is payable under fire policy only and can not be paid
under MB policy. Like wise the short circuit of windings can not be
paid under the fire policy and can be paid only under MB policy. If
the Insured has Fire as well as a MB policy then losses under both
heads shall be payable otherwise only such loss is payable for which
the Insdured has a policy namely MB or Fire.

Hope this clarification helps you.

Regards

Deepak K Bhan

[Rajendra Naidu]

Hi,

 

We are governed by India regulations . Hence my conclusion .

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Regards

 

 

Rajendra Naidu

V.P.

[Bharat Bhushan]

Dear friends   As per fire exclusion the loss, destruction or damage to any electrical machine, apparatus, fixture, or fitting arising from or occasioned by over-running, excessive pressure, short circuiting, arcing, self heating or leakage of electricity from whatever cause (lightning included) provided that this exclusion shall apply only to the particular electrical machine, apparatus, fixture or fitting so affected and not to other machines, apparatus, fixtures or fittings which may be destroyed or damaged by fire so set up.   In my opinion the loss to motor due to fire set up inside is outside the scope of fire insurance and it can be covered only in breakdown insurance. If fire so set up affects the near by machinery, cable etc. then surrounding machinery etc. can be claimed under fire insurance but not the electric motor.   Regards   Bharat Bhushan --- On Thu, 23/4/09, Adjuster Sainani <adjuste...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Adjuster Sainani <adjuste...@gmail.com> Subject: [Adjusters:8438] Re: ELECTRICAL CLAUSE B To: "Insurance Adjusters" <Insurance...@googlegroups.com> Date: Thursday, 23 April, 2009, 8:14 PM

Although I feel the discusision is going in on full swing, we need to see : 1) The Arcing / Flash Over is a Fire. 2) What is the Proximate cause of II stage of fire. On Apr 23, 5:59 pm, javed malik <jqma...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear brother > > Good question if i am allowed to make comment although I am not the > addressee."Because the stator winding is damaged at first instance by means > of electrical breakdown" At 2nd stage it produced flames and set the fire > up. I think there is combustible material in the motor in shape of sleaves, > leatherites, varnish, cotton tapes and insulation tapes which also bunr at > very high temperature. > > Qayyum > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Rafiq Ahmed Shah < >

> sabrhassocia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear Deepak Bhan , > >                   Kindly further explain t6he case 2 . Why in case of > > damages reluting in flame (Fire ) the winding is still paid under MBD > > policy . Cannot all the damages be paid under fire policy only . Plz > > quote the relevent Terms & Conditions of the policy if possible . If > > the claims is paid under two policies are two policy clauses under > > individual policy applicable . Plz reply >

> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Deepak Bhan <deepakkb...@gmail.com>

> > wrote: > > > > Dear Qayyum > > > > Let me explain through the very example of an electric motor you have > > > referred to in your query. > > > > Case 1: The winding gets damaged due to short circuiting  and the > > > short-circuit did not result into a fire. In such an eventuality the > > > loss to winding falls within the scope of a Breakdown Cover and can > > > not be claimed under Fire insurance > > > > Case 2: The winding gets damaged due to short circuiting  and the > > > short-circuit results into a fire in which the motor casing and rotor > > > shaft are damaged due to direct flames and / or heat of such fire. In > > > such an eventuality the loss to winding shall fall within the scope of > > > a Breakdown Cover while as the damage to casing and rotor shaft can be > > > claimed under Fire insurance. Alternatively one can state for the > > > scenario depicted in Case 2 that if Breakdown as well a a Fire > > > insurance cover exists then the winding gets paid under MB cover and > > > can not be paid under Fire cover and at the same time the casing and > > > rotor shaft shall be payable only under Fire cover and not under a MB > > > cover. > > > > I hope this feedback is of help to you. > > > > Regards > > > > Deepak K Bhan >

> > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:36 PM, qpmalik <jqma...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Dear brothers, > > > >> Another study case. > > > >> There are 2 school of thoughts on the issue of electrical clause B. > > > >> 1. Electrical breakdown can not be treated as fire and there must be > > >> an actual fire to recover claim under electrical clause B. > > > >> 2. Loss due to electrical breakdown in any electrical machine/ > > >> component/appliance etc is as a result of overrunning, excessive > > >> pressure, voltage surges, etc is recoverable under electrical clause > > >> B. > > > >> For example an electric motor stator winding flashed out which > > >> required to be rewound. The loss is not recoverable under opinion 1 > > >> where as it is recoverable under opinion 2. > > > >> Plz. comment > > > >> Qayyum Pervez >

> > -- > > Rafiq Ahmad Shah > > Surveyor / Loss Adjuster

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[chandra dasaraju]

Dear Sir, That is right.  And Electrical peril is not an offered (to cover) peril at extra premium, in Fire policy, as far as my knowledge goes.   -with regards, D.CHANDRASEKHARA RAJU Hyderabad.  +91-99490-95995.  --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Bharat Bhushan <bbcin...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

[javed malik]

Dear brother,

 

You have quoted the dynamo exclusion clause which is named as "electrical clause A" here in Pakistan. As few companies in India have applied for deletion of dynamo clause similarly electrical clause B has been introduced here about 40 years ago as also provided in UK ( please go through fire insurance law and claims published by Chartered Institute of loss adjusters UK) to delete the electrical clause A or your Dynamo exclusion clause by paying an additional premium. Under these circumstances I was of the opinion that the damage to stator winding due to electric short-circuiting etc stands covered now as if you are provided with the deletion of dynamo exclusion clause.

what would you say?

 

Qayyum

[chandra dasaraju]

Dear Sir, Please see the exclusion under Std Fire & Spl Perils Policy   -Quote Loss, destruction or damage to any electrical machine, apparatus, fixture, or fitting arising from or occasioned by over-running, excessive pressure, short circuiting, arcing, self heating or leakage of electricity from whatever cause (lightning included) provided that this exclusion shall apply only to the particular electrical machine, apparatus, fixture or fitting so affected and not to other machines, apparatus, fixtures or fittings which may be destroyed or damaged by fire so set up.   -Unquote   I think the provision is clear   -with regards D.CHAMDRASEKHARA RAJU Hyderabad.  +91-99490-95995. --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Rafiq Ahmed Shah <sabrhas...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Vinod Agrawal]

Friends,

 

A nice discussion in progress. Would add some points for clarity and to take the discussion

into more details:

 

1. The English practice of having dynamo clause with Fire Policy as an add on

    cover was dispensed with in India in late seventys. The position after it is

    that electrical damages are excluded from the scope of fire policy and the

    same are considered to be in scope of machinery breakdown policy. Hence

    complimenting clauses are provided in fire policy and breakdown policy. Even

    fire damages within a machine have been put in the scope of machinery breakdown

    policy. Thereafter the tariff governed market gave no option to insurers to alter

    these clauses.

 

2. Recently the insurance regulator has allowed Indian Insurers to design and sell custom 

    add on covers for fire, motor and engineering policies. The main policy wordings still

    remain frozen. In wake of this some insurers are trying to re-introduce dynamo clause.

    Where on payment of little extra premium the fire cover would be extended to cover

    electrical fires.

 

3. My take of the matter is that dynamo clause like spontaneous combustion extension

   would lead to more problems. The electrical exclusion clause was brought into the

   fire policy due to two reasons a) To avoid disputes in case of electrical fire. It is

   often disputed as to what is damaged `by fire' and what gave `rise to fire'. b) To

   clearly separate the scope of breakdown and fire covers.

 

4. The dynamo clause unless the insurers are willing to package the electrical breakdown

    risks with the fire policy would keep on attracting discussions like this as to what is

    payable and what is not!

 

More views please....

 

Regards,

 

Vinod Agrawal.

 

---

 

[javed malik]

Dear brothers,

 

Mr. Chandra has quoted the dynamo clause which is termed as "electrical clause A" to restrict cover against electrical fires in electrical machines etc but then electrical clause B was introduced to lift the restriction. It means the loss to stator or rotor windings of an electric motor due to electric short-circuiting/overrunning/excessive pressure/leakage of current stands covered under fire policy in the presence of fire definition which says that electrical fire/breakdown can not be considered as "fire" Now I think that is the reason why an extra premium is charged like in malicious damage coverage where the loss due to MD is covered whether fire occurs or not because if fire occurs it is covered under standard fire policy.

 

Plz. Comment

 

Qayyum Pervez