Engine Failure - Hydra Crane - Pre / Post toppling engine failure / crank case bursting

[Sainani M S]

Dear Friends,

There is a Escorts Hydra Crane 1242 about One & Half Year old which got toppled to LHS (filter side) & RHS (FIP Side) crank case is punched by a broken con rod associated with Cab & Roof damages due to toppling. There are two probable causes of loss as perceived:

1. Bursting of Engine while running resulting in startled driver (imbalanced engine reactive forces) leading to toppling of Hydra Crane (possibilities like Hydro Locking due to ingress of leaked fuel / coolant, Oil Starvation are ruled out already which could have resulted in breakage of Con Rod).
2. Toppling of Hydra Crane resulted in breakage of con rod punching the crank case from inside with one of the liner bottom skirt broken.

 

Few Digital pictures are enclosed for colleagues to share their experiences / knowledge & expertise about similar situations (sequence & root cause analysis) even in other equipments as to above deliberations / situations evaluating any other possibilities preferably with reasonings.

Breg

M S Sainani

Udaipur

[Rajnikant Panchal]

Dear Sainanji

Your assumption are very correct. 

This failure to Con rod most probably either due to oil starvation or coolant temp. raised .

Looking to photographs of  Con rod bearing shell , Not seems , It has heavy seizing , but  Piston outer shows that 

Piston got seized first then further chain of damages i.e. Con Rod failure, Breakage of Piston skirt, then breakage 

to Crank case  taken place. 

Regards 

 

 

Rajnikant Panchal
Insurance Surveyor 
Abu Road -307026
Dist.- Sirohi- Rajasthan

---

From: Sainani M S <adjuste...@gmail.com>
To: Insurance Adjusters <insurance...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: iiisla-bengal <iiisla...@googlegroups.com>; iiisla-tech...@googlegroups.com; iiisl...@googlegroups.com; Insurance_Surveyors <Insurance...@googlegroups.com>; "insurance-surveyors-india@google" <insurance-su...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 February 2016 7:31 PM
Subject: Engine Failure - Hydra Crane - Pre / Post toppling engine failure / crank case bursting

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[Girimaji Ashok]

Dear Friends

UN-disputable fact about toppling of a motor vehicle with engine in running condition:

The seepage of Engine oil till the  cylinder head is a common occurance where the vehicles are either toppled on their sides or when the vehicles  turn turtle while the engine is in running condition.

Now ,the pertinent question is 

What can make a con. rod break?

Under what circumstances the con. rod will fail?

A huge force either from the top ( cylinder head) or from the bottom( crank end) acting on the con rod only can either bend / break the con. rod.

How the huge force can get generated inside the engine?

AS the reported loss to the engine has occured with the engine in running condition ( otherwise this loss to the engine would never have existed) the seepage of oil from the crank case till the cylinder head & inside the combustion chamber has caused for Hydro static lock. This hydro static lock has generated the required damaging force to cut the connecting rod. But for this Hydro static lock the connecting rod would never have made a gaping hole in the cylinder block.  

Sequence of loss :

The insured vehicle has over turned --- causing for hydro static lock & the ultimate damage to the internal parts of the engine.

As long as overturning is covered ( by payment of additional premium) every loss / damage to the insured vehicle is to be indemnified by the relevant policy of motor insurance. 

Also, it would be pertinent to note that only when the insured vehicle is being used as a tool of trade overturning has to be explicitly covered for the policy to assume liability. 

In case the insured vehicle is not being used as a tool of trade then the peril (event) --- overturning gets disconnected from the subject matter & gets covered by default.

Simple logic:

The first peril ( overturning) is bound ultimately to lead to a loss & the occurance of the second peril ( damage to the internal parts of the engine) is simply the inevitable means by which that loss occurs.

With basic & relevant inputs from Mr. Tummalagunta Rameshbabu. Mob: 9440014565

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WARM REGARDS
ASHOK GIRIMAJI
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Chartered Engineer

SHIMOGA - 577201

KARNATAKA
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[adjuste...@gmail.com]

Dear All Friends

Tnq for overwhelming response, the question is only technical, not policy or admissibility related, still the issue is Root cause analysis (failure analysis) with sequence of failure (with most probable cause of con rod failure) - the engine bursted first followed by toppling if yes what could be the causes ?

If engine bursted after toppling what are the probable reasons / causes, pl recall, Lube oil starvation before/ after toppling is ruled out besides Hydro Locking, the deliberations by friends are quite elaborate and interesting, please suggest other probable causes to correlate the situation, I wish to submit my deliberations on this once I get root cause analysis from Escorts.

Breg / M S Sainani / Udaipur                            +91 9414168144

1 Vinayak Nagar, Bohra Ganesh Ji Main Road, Udaipur - 313002, Rajasthan, India

 

All Claims related communication is Without Prejudice / Mails sent on the move, please excuse Typos.

On 13-Feb-2016, at 9:21 AM, Rakesh Soni <rakesh...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Sainani Ji,

It is evident from the photographs that this happened only due to internal explosion . In my opinion  looking to  condition of Main Begun  , as main Begun seized due to Oil Starvation and connecting Rod bent and broke Engine Block.In my opinion this is a strong possibilities.

Rakesh Soni

Sent from my iPhone

On 13-Feb-2016, at 9:08 am, Binu Varkey <binu.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sainani,

  The Engine Block has cracked due to the force exerted by the internal components of the engine. The connecting rod is the culprit. Connecting Rod is broken. This can only happen if there is a hydrostatic lock. The photos of connecting rod clearly shows that it has bend before breaking up. Now the question that is to be answered is when did the hydrostatic lock occur. There is only two possibilities. 1. while the vehicle fell 2. The restarting of engine after the vehicle was lifted. Please comment on my views.

Regards

Binu Varkey

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Sainani M S <adjuste...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Manohar S Sainani]

Dear B B Rai Ji

Both the possibilities of Hydro Locking & lube Oil starvation are ruled out given the dismantling witnessing by us.

Breg

M S Sainani

BE, FIIISA, DCII (London)

SLA 15187 (3/3/17)

(+91) 9414168144 | sai...@adjusterindia.com |Phone # : +91 294 2490256

United Technical Services (Approved Valuer, Chartered Engineer, Surveyor & Loss Adjuster) | 1 - Vinayak Nagar, Bohra Ganesh Ji Main Road | Udaipur - 313002, Rajasthan

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All Insurance Claims related communication is Without Prejudice.

On 13 February 2016 at 10:54, B.B. RAI <bbrai...@gmail.com> wrote:

​Dear Sir,

Most of technical analysis has already been elaborated by members & are very authentic. I also want to add one; that if con rod broke due to hydrostatic locking seizure will not be there, thus probability of breakage of con rod by starvation of oil either during running or while it overturning is looking much relevant.

We may have a proper check for oil pumping system & may relate the seized con rod with it.

With best Regards.    

B. B. RAI
For M/s Safety First Insurance Surveyor and Loss Assessor Pvt. Ltd.,

408, Geetanjali Tower,

Near Civil Line Metro Station,

Ajmer Road, Sodala, Jaipur.

Contact 0141-4113232, 7792960002

Fax No. 0141-2220099

+91-98290-66599

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Binu Varkey <binu.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sainani,

  The Engine Block has cracked due to the force exerted by the internal components of the engine. The connecting rod is the culprit. Connecting Rod is broken. This can only happen if there is a hydrostatic lock. The photos of connecting rod clearly shows that it has bend before breaking up. Now the question that is to be answered is when did the hydrostatic lock occur. There is only two possibilities. 1. while the vehicle fell 2. The restarting of engine after the vehicle was lifted. Please comment on my views.

Regards

Binu Varkey

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Sainani M S <adjuste...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Chand Bhatia]

Dear Mr Sainani

Given case of engine damages in the crane, and viewing the photographs, there can not be two opinions that engine damages are due to some internal parts failures, which may be breakage of connecting rod or bolt failure as suggested by few of colleagues. You have expressed that startled driver might have caused overturning of the crane due to reactive forces of the engine failure. 

My views on the possible circumstances are to be seen with two primary consideration 

1.  whether the crane over turned and that caused the engine damages or 

2.the engine got damages and that caused the over turning. 

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Sainani M S <adjuste...@gmail.com> wrote:

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c k bhatia
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[Chand Bhatia]

Dear Mr Sainani

Given case of engine damages in the crane, and viewing the photographs, there can not be two opinions that engine damages are due to some internal parts failures, which may be breakage of connecting rod or bolt failure as suggested by few of colleagues. You have expressed that startled driver might have caused overturning of the crane due to reactive forces of the engine failure. 

My views on the possible circumstances are to be seen with two primary consideration 

1.  whether the crane over turned and that caused the engine damages or 

2.  the engine got damages and that caused the over turning. 

Giving the first situation to analyse - The condition of the cabin shows that cabin was tilted by almost 20-30 degrees. Bending of cabin to such a degree is possible when the vehicle falls with a great force. The vehicle shall then be lying on left tyre and the cabin top. Engine position is also to be viewed and I am sure that position shall be such that oil level shall fall below the suction of lubrication oil. This will cause the starvation of the oil in lubrication system and cause seizure and subsequent damages. Notably the piston tops are not showing any oil and therefore hydro locking type damages are not possible. Seizure of engine due to oil starvation is more possible looking at the condition of the piston and cylinder. This possibly further increases if the oil level in sump is at lower most level. 

But then we must analyse the cause of overturning, Overturning can be A. due to uneven ground level (this should be verified from the spot survey or photos if may or taking the statement of the operator/driver) or B. The load was being carried by the crane which is normally hanging with rope and hanging load caused some side thrust and caused of overturning. This fact can be investigated and arrived at after spot investigation and fact finding of the machine operation at the time of loss. 

Giving the second situation - In my personal opinion if the engine seizes and causes damages as observed, the reactive forces are not such that the crane can get overturned. In my opinion the crane should not overturn even if it is moving. But the chances of overturning are more if the crane is carrying a hanging load then sudden seizure of the moving crane may cause swing in the hanging load and that can cause the overturning. 

Viewing the above possibilities I feel that following investigations may be done to arrive at more accurate probability of cause of loss -

1. Whether the crane was in operation and carrying the load, weight of load and the hook being used to carry the weight (overweight and using of wrong hook for the load make more swinging forces and vulnerable of over turning). Crane owners normally try to operate on overweight (like all commercial vehicles) and for that they put an additional counter weight on the back side of the crane. This may be checked on the crane. If found so then this means the crane normally carries overweight. 

2.  Whether there was enough of oil in sump. This may be verified by normal working of the machine and maintenance of the vehicle. Spot photos may also reflect the oil leakage spilled over the ground to some extent. 

In my personal the first probability is highest that the crane was carrying the hanging load which, and its swing caused the crane to overturn and also caused starvation in oil system as explained above.  

I am not giving any opinion on the admissibility of the claim in insurance as the same is not desired. You as a senior surveyor can make judgement on admissibility once you arrive at factual cause of loss. 

C K BHATIA

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Sainani M S <adjuste...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[M S Sainani, Surveyor / Loss Adjuster]

Dear Friends

I m waiting for meeting with Service Head soon on the issue would share the final outcome, in the meantime Tnq all for sharing thoughts / probabilities, pl do not consider as testing any bodies abilities, it is merely setting a healthy discussion in lotion till we come to a rational, indigestible conclusion, admissibility and other things would follow once the root cause and sequence is established. The purpose of sharing the case is :

1 there is no hydro locking,

2 No Lubeoil starvation either.

Berg

M S Sainani

On Monday 15 February 2016, 'Shreekant Sharma' via IIISLA TECHNICAL GROUP <iiisla-tech...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sirs,

1. Restarting the engine & connecting rod breaking is not acceptable. It is not easy to break a connecting rod which is strong steel casting itself. Again battery power can only rotate the engine & maximum power would occur after ignition begins & engine running on its own. Even with the assumption that there occurred a hydro static lock (when engine not running), the connecting rod may bend but chances of its complete breaking is very less.

2. In the said accident, maximum seizure took place between liner & piston surfaces. No doubt, big end bearing too got damaged but slightly. In case of extreme seizure white metal of the big end bearing chips out/melts off.

3. Breaking of the connecting rod means, full power was being exerted & suddenly some thing having been entered into combustion chamber.This could be a broken piece of piston ring, broken suction or discharge valve or sudden entry of fuel from broken injector mouth. But all these things do not relate with seizure. Seizure did take place. 

4. To me it appears that seizure took place due to lack of lubricating oil, liner got broken due to excessive heat/friction & suddenly cooling water entered into combustion chamber from the broken liner, creating a sudden & heavy hydro static lock within no time & in more or less full power & the connecting rod getting maximum thrust simply broken down..

5. Another probability is that the crane was lifting a very heavy load, engine worked on more than its designed capacity or power, engine got overheated, piston & liners rubbed due to excessive heat causing seizure like situation, connecting rod got maximum thrust & it eventually gave up & broke. 

I very much appreciate Mr. Sainani for bringing up such live situations & would appreciate more if he discloses his final decision.

S.K. Sharma

On Sunday, 14 February 2016 11:00 PM, Binu Varkey <binu.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sainani, Girimaji and Other Active Participants.

  I would rather state that the hydrostatic lock caused by the oil in the head has caused bending, shearing and breaking up of the connecting rod and pressure so caused had damaged the bearing, piston and cylinder, cylinder block. This has happened only due to starting of engine after bringing back the hydra on to the wheels without draining out the oil that has accumulated in the head. There is only a very remote chance of engine getting damaged due to tilting of hydra to one side. If it was due to starvation of oil then it should affect all the cylinders, pistons, connecting rods and allied items in the same manner. I strongly believe that the damage to engine in this case is due to hydrostatic lock.

Regards

Binu Varkey

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Girimaji Ashok <avan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends

The mail of Mr. Rakesh Soni is very clearly evidencing the fact that the cause of loss is the failure of main bearing ( big end bearing of con. rod). It is extremely clear for me at least.

Failure of main bearing is by all means one of the main probable cause of loss which cannot be discounted. 

We are still at the analysis stage.

i always look at the confidence of the participant rather than the English grammar. 

Experience & confidence of the participant is more important than the Grammar / spell mistakes.

instead of understanding , pointing out spell mistakes i believe is demotivating. 

Hurting the feelings of some one is not my intentions.

I believe in more & more participation. 

Participation is enhanced by confidence & experience & motivation rather than improved grammar of English.

As it is the participation is very very low.

 

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 7:15 PM, ANIL JAUHRI,Surveyor and Loss Assessor <anilj...@gmail.com> wrote:

When the crane overturned obviously it was in some gear.  The oil in the chamber shifted to left side causing lean lubrication to main and big end bearings.  All engines are set on some idle rpm.  The diesel engine being a close circuit it remained started till the resistance by seizure on bearings make the engine stop.  Since the vehicle remained overturned for a certain hours say atleast three four hours, the engine oil because of running engine heat had a lower viscosity reached the piston top.  Now the crane was put on wheels.  The owner without taking due precautions started the engine.  The oil on piston top created hydrostatic lock.  The owner just to keep the engine started over accilerated it causing bent of connecting rod and finally broke it.  The broken peice mounted on crank due to revolution broke the block and chamber.  The seizure mark on pistons are due to lack of lubrication.  This extension of loss  is not covered by the policy.   The insured is concealing the fact that he started the engine without taking due precautions or waiting for oil come down from engine top.  His ignorant negligence has extensively increased the loss
Anil Jauhri

On 14 Feb 2016 13:15, "Gulzar Mathauda" <gulzarm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Respected Surveyor Brothers

It is indeed very good that we are enhancing our knowledge by mutual discussions on board on various subjects.

We are all qualified engineers and while putting our opinion on board we must be sure of the subject and must put it in a proper way and sequence particularly caring for proper technical names and their spellings. 

With out meaning any disrespect, and with advance apology that just i have seen a mail in which term as 

Main Began, for Big end bearing has been used. 

i again emphasize that we must use proper terms and correct spelling

Warm Regards

Sqn Ldr Gulzar Singh, (Retd

Surveyor

   

 

---

From: insurance-su...@googlegroups.com <insurance-su...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Rakesh Soni <rakesh...@yahoo.co.in>
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 9:21:53 AM
To: insurance-su...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Sainani M S; Insurance Adjusters; iiisla-bengal; iiisla-technical-group; IIISLA GROUP; Insurance_Surveyors
Subject: Re: Engine Failure - Hydra Crane - Pre / Post toppling engine failure / crank case bursting

 

Dear Sainani Ji,

It is evident from the photographs that this happened only due to internal explosion . In my opinion  looking to  condition of Main Begun  , as main Begun seized due to Oil Starvation and connecting Rod bent and broke Engine Block.In my opinion this is a strong possibilities.

Rakesh Soni

Sent from my iPhone

On 13-Feb-2016, at 9:08 am, Binu Varkey <binu.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sainani,

  The Engine Block has cracked due to the force exerted by the internal components of the engine. The connecting rod is the culprit. Connecting Rod is broken. This can only happen if there is a hydrostatic lock. The photos of connecting rod clearly shows that it has bend before breaking up. Now the question that is to be answered is when did the hydrostatic lock occur. There is only two possibilities. 1. while the vehicle fell 2. The restarting of engine after the vehicle was lifted. Please comment on my views.

Regards

Binu Varkey

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Sainani M S <adjuste...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

There is a Escorts Hydra Crane 1242 about One & Half Year old which got toppled to LHS (filter side) & RHS (FIP Side) crank case is punched by a broken con rod associated with Cab & Roof damages due to toppling. There are two probable causes of loss as perceived:

1. Bursting of Engine while running resulting in startled driver (imbalanced engine reactive forces) leading to toppling of Hydra Crane (possibilities like Hydro Locking due to ingress of leaked fuel / coolant, Oil Starvation are ruled out already which could have resulted in breakage of Con Rod).
2. Toppling of Hydra Crane resulted in breakage of con rod punching the crank case from inside with one of the liner bottom skirt broken.

 

Few Digital pictures are enclosed for colleagues to share their experiences / knowledge & expertise about similar situations (sequence & root cause analysis) even in other equipments as to above deliberations / situations evaluating any other possibilities preferably with reasonings.

Breg

M S Sainani

Udaipur

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WARM REGARDS
ASHOK GIRIMAJI
Insurance Surveyor & loss Assessor
Chartered Engineer

SHIMOGA - 577201

KARNATAKA
+91 8861077536
 
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Breg

M S Sainani (SLA 15187 - 3/3/17)
+ 91 9414168144 | adjuste...@gmail.com | sai...@adjusterindia.com

Udaipur, Rajasthan.