Re: SV: Seeking input for FOSS4G talk
Just van den Broecke
Thanks for your contribution, really appreciated.
IMHO looks like OSM these days is also getting more focus on raw data
consumption. Especially now more an more free public/government data
sets are added. For example (in NL) addresses and land use (3d-shapes).
Address-data can then subsequently be used in a gazetteer (like we did
in ESDIN). Also it looks like OSM is adding more and more thematic
"overlays", now like cyclemaps and hiking maps, but why not e.g.
protected areas. Dividing OSM data into themes, like INSPIRE Annexes,
would be a matter of proper tagging (?). But you're right and that is a
good point: the focus in INSPIRE is primarily on (meta)data and OSM on
the map. In some cases I mean with "OSM" also the Open Source
tools/infrastructure/ecosystem, something INSPIRE is lacking.
As for integration: one other scenario I had in mind is to use OSM as an
intermediate, flat data store for INSPIRE transformation. Already in the
inspire-foss.org project we first transform national source data to
flattened (OGR simple feature) XML data before transforming (via XSLT)
to INSPIRE Theme GML
(http://code.google.com/p/inspire-foss/wiki/HowToTransformation). First
experiments of "osm2inspire" for AU are very encouraging.
http://code.google.com/p/inspire-foss/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fetl%2FOSM
OSM could in theory even become the backend for INSPIRE. We then only
need a single transformation to INSPIRE (osm2inspire). NMCAs then merely
need to publish their data (with proper tags like inspire:theme=HY) into
an/the OSM cloud. We "catch two flies": public open data and integrated
INSPIRE data. But this may be a pipe dream...
Meanwhile I discovered that Karel Charvat is also dealing/working on
similar issues:
http://www.envirogrids.cz/simplecms/admin/?menuID=2&articleID=12&action=article&presenter=ArticleDetail
Yes, we'll meet, albeit warm or cold beer !
best,
Just
On 23-08-11 10:00, Thomas Ellett wrote:
> Hei Just,
>
> I pretty much agree with everything Arnulf has said below and really
> only have 1 point to make. It seems to me that one of their fundamental
> differences is the format and service each project is aimed at. Whereas
> OSM is managed and designed really for visual consumption, INSPIRE is
> more aimed at WFS and raw data consumption.
>
> Yes you can make a map from the INSPIRE data specs, but the data specs
> were not primarily developed with this in mind. Indeed, most of the
> Portrayal sections of the data specs, possibly with the exception of
> hydrography, are pretty thin. Another difference is that whereas OSM
> aspires to provide a visually clear and coherent representation of
> perceived (not verified by domain experts) standardized spatial data
> taking into account the impact of portrayal of one theme on another;
> INSPIRE aspires to provide standardized data with a basic representation
> on a theme by theme basis (of course you do have the option of using
> other portrayal schemas; but these must either already be used on a
> pan-European basis of be a national standard. The first would be theme
> specific, the second country specific thus neither really allow for a
> coherent portrayal of multiple themes). Geez, those were some long
> sentences, sorry!!
>
> But perhaps these differences can make the two products compatible given
> that they are essentially not competitive? Perhaps its possible to use
> OSM as a front end for the INSPIRE data, maybe by having some kind of
> INSPIRE flavor OSM map? (Something like the Esdin client could be put
> into effect for instance). Not entirely sure, but I guess if two
> products in the same semantic domain are not competitive in nature
> theres a good chance of using them together, somehow, for something!!
> There, can't be clearer than that!
>
> Hope these ramblings might be of some help! Unfortunately I'm not able
> to make it to Denver (one of my colleagues has kindly agreed to give my
> presentation, for some reason he didn't need much persuation...?) but
> perhaps the beer can be put on ice until we inevitably meet at the next
> inspire/foss /geospatial conference/project. Hangon, I'm british, best
> make that 'put in a warm room with little natural light'.....
>
> Cheers
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: Arnulf Christl [mailto:arnulf....@metaspatial.net]
> Sendt: 18. august 2011 16:31
> Til: Just van den Broecke
> Kopi: Thomas Ellett; Martijn van Exel; Steven M. Ottens
> Emne: Re: Seeking input for FOSS4G talk
>
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> Just,
> you are a fine expert all by yourself, I'd say. So no need for me to
> answer. :-) But I'll try anyway.
>
> On 16.08.2011 12:09, Just van den Broecke wrote:
>> Dear Experts,
>>
>> I write to you as you are/have been involved in both INSPIRE and OSM.
> I
>> am seeking suggestions/input for my talk in FOSS4G in Denver:
>> "OpenStreetMap and INSPIRE: can the twain meet?". Abstract
>>
> http://2011.foss4g.org/sessions/openstreetmap-and-inspire-can-twain-meet
>
> Well, that intro is spot on, let's see how you are going to wriggle
> yourself out of this one. :-) I mean you are saying that it won't work
> and at the same time that you simply won't accept that. Well done.
>
> I guess the most important aspect that each weakness is the other's
> strength. Where NMCA / INSPIRE models are too inflexible, OSM is. On the
> other hand for many other aspects OSM is too unstable and chaotic to be
> used. SO both could lear from the respective (and respected) other how
> to do thing better.
>
>> My aim is to have an informal talk, more to provoke ideas, starting
> out
>> with a problem: both projects seem to aim for similar goals like a
>> "Global SDI in the Sky" for purposes like mapping, routing,
>> gazetteering, disaster management etc, each putting in huge quantities
>> of resources/brainpower. At the same time INSPIRE and OSM take
> complete
>> opposite approaches. Aren't we wasting (human) resources where each
>> project ends up with half-finished/baked solutions ? Is there a way
> (or
>> need) to integrate/combine at least at some level ?
>
>
>> Hopefully you have some suggestions for one or more of the following:
>
> Well, again - you already said everything that is relevant, let me copy
> this in again using my own words, just to make sure.
>
>> - what common goals do you see in both INSPIRE and OSM ?
> Both try to create, maintain and provide maps and data.
>
>> - what do you see as their biggest differences ?
>
> (I hope the tabs come through...)
> OSM INSPIRE
> Chaos hierarchy (also chaos, but only internally...)
> open / reusable proprietary ownership
> non-government legally mandated
> volunteer based paid
> extensible frozen
>
>
>> - what possible integration scenario's do you see ?
>
> Publish all public geodata by NMCAS to be used in OSM for free and
> gratis and forever. Use OSM as QA for NMCA data. Improve legally
> mandated maps and data using community power. Accept that legal
> boundaries, etc. need to be maintained by a legal government entity with
> paid professionals.
>
>> Or any other (crazy) suggestion you have, even of you think that both
>> projects should just separately chug along. Thanks for any help, I'll
>> buy you a beer in Denver !
>
> Ha, I'd rather have a Vodka. Jorge Gustavo Rocha from Portugal even
> suggested to maintain cadastral parcels in OSM. That is bold. But in
> many places there is no cadastral base map at all, so why not make them
> as a concerted efforts using the OSM infrastructure and framework?
>
> On the other hand I want to keep legally enforceable data in the hands
> of my government because I trust them more than a globally open project
> like OSM. But this may also differ quite a lot around the world. But
> just like the press / media once upon a time were the third power in our
> political system the next generation third power will be transparency.
> And OSM is all about transparency. And it has this local aspect which
> ploitics is lacking both corporate and national politics.
>
> I am looking forward to this talk!
>
> Have fun,
> Arnulf
>
>> kind regards / met vriendelijke groet,
>>
>> --Just
>>
>> Just van den Broecke ju...@justobjects.nl
>> Just Objects B.V. tel +31 65 4268627 Skype: justb4
>> The Netherlands http://www.justobjects.nl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> - --
> Nothing makes sense, except we make it.
> http://www.metaspatial.net
>
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