UX boards available
Eric Saund
We have some surplus UX 400 and UX 1200 boards.
I think these were to run Genera on a Sun. Their
condition is unknown.
Anyone interested?
-Eric Saund
--------------------
Eric Saund, Ph.D.
Xerox PARC
3333 Coyote Hill Rd.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
(650) 812-4474
(650) 812-4334 (fax)
sa...@parc.xerox.com
http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/members/saund
Peter Paine
I have been asked a number of general questions recently by people new to
Lispms, Symbolics and Genera. Not knowing the state of the trade which was
Symbolics (hardware support, sales or software), it occures to me that the
community of Symbolics users who communicate (presumably chiefly SLUG
participants) might be well served were we to pool resources wherever
viable.
Immediately I wondered if there was any possibility of hosting the full
Docex on the W3. It would help many people learn about Symbolics and Lisp.
Although I have no clue as to the IPR, copyright or other issues, nor do I
have the Web resources etc. I am game to contribute where I am able. I
would hope that if any Symbolics trading entities do exist, this would be
seen as being in their interest (if only to keep the candle guttering for
the Lispm, or perhaps as a living museum pending it's rebirth in a socially
acceptable form). Also, I wonder if there are any Concordia wizards out
there who know all about parsing Docex format to HTML.
I wonder what is the feasability of setting up a Symbolics machine as a
CL-HTTP server for the world. If anyone from BT is listening, I am happy
to donate the hardware, support, power, etc. but I cannot afford the Net
access.
Luca Pisati
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hi Peter
A while ago on the LispOS mailing list (mailto:lis...@math.gatech.edu)
we had a similar discussion. At the time I guess there was som (C) issues.
I attach here the resulting thread.
Peter Paine wrote:
>
> I have been asked a number of general questions recently by people new to
> Lispms, Symbolics and Genera. Not knowing the state of the trade which was
> Symbolics (hardware support, sales or software), it occures to me that the
> community of Symbolics users who communicate (presumably chiefly SLUG
> participants) might be well served were we to pool resources wherever
> viable.
>
> Immediately I wondered if there was any possibility of hosting the full
> Docex on the W3. It would help many people learn about Symbolics and Lisp.
> Although I have no clue as to the IPR, copyright or other issues, nor do I
> have the Web resources etc. I am game to contribute where I am able. I
> would hope that if any Symbolics trading entities do exist, this would be
> seen as being in their interest (if only to keep the candle guttering for
> the Lispm, or perhaps as a living museum pending it's rebirth in a socially
> acceptable form). Also, I wonder if there are any Concordia wizards out
> there who know all about parsing Docex format to HTML.
I believe that, given a running Concordia, it should be possible to regenerate
the Doc in a format that could then be moved to HTML. Another possibility
would be to go from Postcript to PDF (of course this will not generate any
link).
> I wonder what is the feasability of setting up a Symbolics machine as a
> CL-HTTP server for the world. If anyone from BT is listening, I am happy
> to donate the hardware, support, power, etc. but I cannot afford the Net
> access.
If such a thing should be done, I think it would be better to move the doc
to another format, instead than serving through CL-HTTP on Symbolics hardware.
--
Luca Pisati
Manager of Graphics Software Voice: (310) 577-0518
Nichimen Graphics Fax: (310) 577-0577
12555 W. Jefferson #285 EMail: mailto:pis...@nichimen.com
Los Angeles, CA 90066 Web: http://www.nichimen.com
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Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:10 -0400
Subject: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
To: pis...@nichimen.com, jos...@lavielle.com
Cc: lis...@math.gatech.edu
In-Reply-To: <336781...@nichimen.com>
Message-Id: <1997050402...@VESUVIUS-2.AI.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
Rainer Joswig wrote:
>
> At 21:16 Uhr +0000 28.4.1997, Alaric B. Williams wrote:
> >On 28 Apr 97 at 0:16, lis...@math.gatech.edu wrote:
> >
> >> I would appreciate affordable docs about Genera and LispMachine OSes,
> >> or even hardware/software to test drive, as, like most computists,
> >> I could never get my *own* experience on them,
> >> but by incidental testimony, indirect deductions, and fertile imagination.
> >> Direct knowledge would be great!
> >
> >Say, Rainer Joswig's page talked about them a bit, I remember (and he himself
> >has a few, so you can ask!), I can't remember his URL, but I think he's
> >on this *VERY* list, so if he notices this he'll post his URL,
>
> see some Lisp stuff at http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/lisp.html
>
> some bits:
>
> For some ideas about what a Symbolics is, one could also
> ask Kalman Reti. Sure also Scott McKay and David Gadbois. ;-)
> They know much more than I ever will (I'm only a user.).
>
> A nice thing to have would be a "Document Examiner to HTML"
> converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> online.
Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
Yes.
Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
through the Web ?
It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in Germany
had actually done some working to get the document examiner to output to html,
but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact the revelant party never received
any answer.
(Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
I do have all the books, of course, and I still use them as
a reference of a great technical documentation.
> Get the "Symbolics Technical Summary" from 1985. Other
> old Lispm Docs would be fine, too. Some universities
> or research companies may have old copies for free.
> Get a KEE manual.
>
> Also, if you find it you may want a copy of "Lisp Lore:
> A Guide to Programming the Lisp Machine", Second Edition, Hank
> Bromley and Richard Lamson, 1987, sigh, ISBN 0-89838-228-9.
I saw it around in some bookshop recently (!)
> The Lisp Bibliography from Herbert Stoyan lists tons of papers
> concerned with Lisp and its implementation.
>
> I haven't heard any specifics lately, but there may be a
> Lisp Users and Vendors Conference this year in Washington, DC.
> We should have some sessions and exchange some ideas there.
>
> The Association of Lisp Users (ALU) is preparing a new
> web site. If someone would take up the task to
> collect the information about the LispOS topic, it sure
> would find a good home at the ALU site.
>
> Rainer Joswig, Lavielle EDV Systemberatung GmbH & Co, Lotharstrasse 2b, D22041
> Hamburg, Tel: +49 40 658088, Fax: +49 40 65808-202,
> Email: jos...@lavielle.com , WWW: http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/
--
Luca Pisati Voice: (310) 577-0518
Nichimen Graphics Fax: (310) 577-0577
12555 W. Jefferson #285 EMail: pis...@nichimen.com
Los Angeles, CA 90066 Web: http://www.nichimen.com
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From: re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:10 -0400
Subject: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
To: pis...@nichimen.com, jos...@lavielle.com
Cc: lis...@math.gatech.edu
In-Reply-To: <336781...@nichimen.com>
Message-Id: <1997050402...@VESUVIUS-2.AI.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
Rainer Joswig wrote:
>
> At 21:16 Uhr +0000 28.4.1997, Alaric B. Williams wrote:
> >On 28 Apr 97 at 0:16, lis...@math.gatech.edu wrote:
> >
> >> I would appreciate affordable docs about Genera and LispMachine OSes,
> >> or even hardware/software to test drive, as, like most computists,
> >> I could never get my *own* experience on them,
> >> but by incidental testimony, indirect deductions, and fertile imagination.
> >> Direct knowledge would be great!
> >
> >Say, Rainer Joswig's page talked about them a bit, I remember (and he himself
> >has a few, so you can ask!), I can't remember his URL, but I think he's
> >on this *VERY* list, so if he notices this he'll post his URL,
>
> see some Lisp stuff at http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/lisp.html
>
> some bits:
>
> For some ideas about what a Symbolics is, one could also
> ask Kalman Reti. Sure also Scott McKay and David Gadbois. ;-)
> They know much more than I ever will (I'm only a user.).
>
> A nice thing to have would be a "Document Examiner to HTML"
> converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> online.
Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
Yes.
Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
through the Web ?
It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in Germany
had actually done some working to get the document examiner to output to html,
but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact the revelant party never received
any answer.
(Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
I do have all the books, of course, and I still use them as
a reference of a great technical documentation.
> Get the "Symbolics Technical Summary" from 1985. Other
> old Lispm Docs would be fine, too. Some universities
> or research companies may have old copies for free.
> Get a KEE manual.
>
> Also, if you find it you may want a copy of "Lisp Lore:
> A Guide to Programming the Lisp Machine", Second Edition, Hank
> Bromley and Richard Lamson, 1987, sigh, ISBN 0-89838-228-9.
I saw it around in some bookshop recently (!)
> The Lisp Bibliography from Herbert Stoyan lists tons of papers
> concerned with Lisp and its implementation.
>
> I haven't heard any specifics lately, but there may be a
> Lisp Users and Vendors Conference this year in Washington, DC.
> We should have some sessions and exchange some ideas there.
>
> The Association of Lisp Users (ALU) is preparing a new
> web site. If someone would take up the task to
> collect the information about the LispOS topic, it sure
> would find a good home at the ALU site.
>
> Rainer Joswig, Lavielle EDV Systemberatung GmbH & Co, Lotharstrasse 2b, D22041
> Hamburg, Tel: +49 40 658088, Fax: +49 40 65808-202,
> Email: jos...@lavielle.com , WWW: http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/
--
Luca Pisati Voice: (310) 577-0518
Nichimen Graphics Fax: (310) 577-0577
12555 W. Jefferson #285 EMail: pis...@nichimen.com
Los Angeles, CA 90066 Web: http://www.nichimen.com
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Date: 4 May 97 18:06:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
From: "Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com>
To: re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu, jos...@lavielle.com
Cc: lis...@math.gatech.edu
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Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
> A nice thing to have would be a "Document Examiner to HTML"
> converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> online.
Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
Yes.
Do you mean: Yes, I work at Symbolics, and yes we could
authorize the Web publication of LispM documentation ?
Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
through the Web ?
It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in
Germany had actually done some working to get the document examiner
to output to html, but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact
the revelant party never received
any answer.
Well, I work at what was Symbolics Graphics Division (and now
is Nichimen Graphics). So I do have all the equipment for trying
to do that. If I reach some goal, could the doc be made publicly
available ?
(Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
Again, PDF from Postcript, even without Hyperlinks, could
be a first step to make a lot of people on this list know
what LispM were all about.
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To: "Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com>
Cc: re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu, jos...@lavielle.com, lis...@math.gatech.edu
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
References: <AF9282F...@204.30.73.114>
From: Alexey Goldin <gol...@spot.uchicago.edu>
Date: 04 May 1997 20:54:01 -0500
In-Reply-To: "Luca Pisati"'s message of 4 May 97 18:06:05 -0700
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"Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com> writes:
>
> (Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
> postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
>
> Again, PDF from Postcript, even without Hyperlinks, could
> be a first step to make a lot of people on this list know
> what LispM were all about.
Please do it just PostScript but do not strip page numbers. Thanks.
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To: "Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com>
Cc: re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu, jos...@lavielle.com, lis...@math.gatech.edu
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
References: <AF9282F...@204.30.73.114>
From: Alexey Goldin <gol...@spot.uchicago.edu>
Date: 04 May 1997 20:54:01 -0500
In-Reply-To: "Luca Pisati"'s message of 4 May 97 18:06:05 -0700
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"Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com> writes:
>
> (Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
> postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
>
> Again, PDF from Postcript, even without Hyperlinks, could
> be a first step to make a lot of people on this list know
> what LispM were all about.
Please do it just PostScript but do not strip page numbers. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:31:44 +0100
To: re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu
From: ba...@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Stefan Bamberger)
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
Cc: pis...@nichimen.com, jos...@lavielle.com, lis...@math.gatech.edu
At 22:10 Uhr 03.05.1997, re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu wrote:
> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
> From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
>
> Rainer Joswig wrote:
> >
> > At 21:16 Uhr +0000 28.4.1997, Alaric B. Williams wrote:
[snip]
> > converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> > online.
>
> Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
>
>Yes.
>
> Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
> through the Web ?
>
>It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in Germany
>had actually done some working to get the document examiner to output to html,
>but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact the revelant party never
>received
>any answer.
>
> (Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
> postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
>
[snip]
> > Rainer Joswig, Lavielle EDV Systemberatung GmbH & Co, Lotharstrasse
>2b, D22041
> > Hamburg, Tel: +49 40 658088, Fax: +49 40 65808-202,
> > Email: jos...@lavielle.com , WWW: http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/
>
> --
> Luca Pisati Voice: (310) 577-0518
> Nichimen Graphics Fax: (310) 577-0577
> 12555 W. Jefferson #285 EMail: pis...@nichimen.com
> Los Angeles, CA 90066 Web: http://www.nichimen.com
Hi,
in a term project at our university a format independent text tool was
developped. In the meanwhile, one of those students developed a Lisp code
documentation tool on top of it.
Input is a start folder,
output is the documentation of all the functions, macros, classes,
methods,..., external, internal, ... and all documentations of them
provided by documentation strings (so far no comments).
Also alphabetical index, class trees and so on are created as separate
appendices.
Output formats being supported so far are HTML, TEX and RTF.
For HTML you get a real bunch of HTML-files you can look at with you
favourite browser.
The tool is walking recursively through all files in all folders below the
start folder (you can exclude folders from being parsed) and anylyzes them.
Actually, the transformation algorithm from the meta language to the chosen
target format is something dump (Tex and RTF looks exactly like the HTML
layout) - there are no real 'device drivers'.
It is tested in MCL, ACL/W and SGI (Stefan Landvogt, do you mind sending us
the SGI patches??).
For an example how the generated documentation looks like, see the
following link:
http://ki-server.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/HTMLs/ls6-info/software/lispdoc
u/index.html
It's the documentation of the documentation tool :))
Feel free for any comments or suggestions.
It's not very fast, but good documentation needn't be changed so often ....
- stefan
______________________________________________________________________________
Stefan K. Bamberger email: ba...@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
Lehrstuhl fuer K"unstliche Intelligenz fax : ++49 931 7056120
Allesgrundweg 12, 97218 Gerbrunn voice : ++49 931 7056118
Universit"at W"urzburg, Germany
______________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:31:44 +0100
To: re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu
From: ba...@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Stefan Bamberger)
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
Cc: pis...@nichimen.com, jos...@lavielle.com, lis...@math.gatech.edu
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At 22:10 Uhr 03.05.1997, re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu wrote:
> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
> From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
>
> Rainer Joswig wrote:
> >
> > At 21:16 Uhr +0000 28.4.1997, Alaric B. Williams wrote:
[snip]
> > converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> > online.
>
> Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
>
>Yes.
>
> Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
> through the Web ?
>
>It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in Germany
>had actually done some working to get the document examiner to output to html,
>but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact the revelant party never
>received
>any answer.
>
> (Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
> postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
>
[snip]
> > Rainer Joswig, Lavielle EDV Systemberatung GmbH & Co, Lotharstrasse
>2b, D22041
> > Hamburg, Tel: +49 40 658088, Fax: +49 40 65808-202,
> > Email: jos...@lavielle.com , WWW: http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/
>
> --
> Luca Pisati Voice: (310) 577-0518
> Nichimen Graphics Fax: (310) 577-0577
> 12555 W. Jefferson #285 EMail: pis...@nichimen.com
> Los Angeles, CA 90066 Web: http://www.nichimen.com
Hi,
in a term project at our university a format independent text tool was
developped. In the meanwhile, one of those students developed a Lisp code
documentation tool on top of it.
Input is a start folder,
output is the documentation of all the functions, macros, classes,
methods,..., external, internal, ... and all documentations of them
provided by documentation strings (so far no comments).
Also alphabetical index, class trees and so on are created as separate
appendices.
Output formats being supported so far are HTML, TEX and RTF.
For HTML you get a real bunch of HTML-files you can look at with you
favourite browser.
The tool is walking recursively through all files in all folders below the
start folder (you can exclude folders from being parsed) and anylyzes them.
Actually, the transformation algorithm from the meta language to the chosen
target format is something dump (Tex and RTF looks exactly like the HTML
layout) - there are no real 'device drivers'.
It is tested in MCL, ACL/W and SGI (Stefan Landvogt, do you mind sending us
the SGI patches??).
For an example how the generated documentation looks like, see the
following link:
http://ki-server.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/HTMLs/ls6-info/software/lispdoc
u/index.html
It's the documentation of the documentation tool :))
Feel free for any comments or suggestions.
It's not very fast, but good documentation needn't be changed so often ....
- stefan
______________________________________________________________________________
Stefan K. Bamberger email: ba...@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
Lehrstuhl fuer K"unstliche Intelligenz fax : ++49 931 7056120
Allesgrundweg 12, 97218 Gerbrunn voice : ++49 931 7056118
Universit"at W"urzburg, Germany
______________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:40 -0400
From: Kalman Reti <re...@RIVERSIDE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
To: pis...@nichimen.com
Cc: re...@WILSON.AI.MIT.EDU, jos...@lavielle.com, lis...@math.gatech.edu
In-Reply-To: <AF9282F...@204.30.73.114>
Message-Id: <1997050820...@BETA-BLOCKER.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:06 EDT
From: "Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
> A nice thing to have would be a "Document Examiner to HTML"
> converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> online.
Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
Yes.
Do you mean: Yes, I work at Symbolics,
Yes, I work at Symbolics.
and yes we could
authorize the Web publication of LispM documentation ?
Almost. I've talked about publishing the documentation on the Web to my
management, and thought some about what it would take to do it, but haven't
yet been given a go-ahead to actually do it.
Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
through the Web ?
It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in
Germany had actually done some working to get the document examiner
to output to html, but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact
the revelant party never received
any answer.
Well, I work at what was Symbolics Graphics Division (and now
is Nichimen Graphics). So I do have all the equipment for trying
to do that. If I reach some goal, could the doc be made publicly
available ?
I think so, but I'll have to check with management to be certain. If I were
to do the project, I'd use John Mallery's CL-HTTP server and just output HTML
from the document database instead of styled text (to the Lispm window version)
or postscript (to the printed version).
(Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
Again, PDF from Postcript, even without Hyperlinks, could
be a first step to make a lot of people on this list know
what LispM were all about.
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Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:40 -0400
From: Kalman Reti <re...@RIVERSIDE.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
To: pis...@nichimen.com
Cc: re...@WILSON.AI.MIT.EDU, jos...@lavielle.com, lis...@math.gatech.edu
In-Reply-To: <AF9282F...@204.30.73.114>
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Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:06 EDT
From: "Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
> A nice thing to have would be a "Document Examiner to HTML"
> converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> online.
Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
Yes.
Do you mean: Yes, I work at Symbolics,
Yes, I work at Symbolics.
and yes we could
authorize the Web publication of LispM documentation ?
Almost. I've talked about publishing the documentation on the Web to my
management, and thought some about what it would take to do it, but haven't
yet been given a go-ahead to actually do it.
Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
through the Web ?
It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in
Germany had actually done some working to get the document examiner
to output to html, but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact
the revelant party never received
any answer.
Well, I work at what was Symbolics Graphics Division (and now
is Nichimen Graphics). So I do have all the equipment for trying
to do that. If I reach some goal, could the doc be made publicly
available ?
I think so, but I'll have to check with management to be certain. If I were
to do the project, I'd use John Mallery's CL-HTTP server and just output HTML
from the document database instead of styled text (to the Lispm window version)
or postscript (to the printed version).
(Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
Again, PDF from Postcript, even without Hyperlinks, could
be a first step to make a lot of people on this list know
what LispM were all about.
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From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
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To: Kalman Reti <re...@riverside.scrc.symbolics.com>
Cc: re...@wilson.ai.mit.edu, jos...@lavielle.com, lis...@math.gatech.edu
Subject: Re: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
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Kalman Reti wrote:
>
> Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:06 EDT
> From: "Luca Pisati" <pis...@nichimen.com>
>
> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:30 EDT
> From: Luca Pisati <pis...@nichimen.com>
>
> > A nice thing to have would be a "Document Examiner to HTML"
> > converter. You would put >10000 pages Lisp machine documentation
> > online.
>
> Does anybody in this list still works at Symbolics ?
>
> Yes.
>
> Do you mean: Yes, I work at Symbolics,
>
> Yes, I work at Symbolics.
Wow, it was I while I didn't see this address:
> and yes we could
> authorize the Web publication of LispM documentation ?
>
> Almost. I've talked about publishing the documentation on the Web to my
> management, and thought some about what it would take to do it, but haven't
> yet been given a go-ahead to actually do it.
I hope this will happen.
> Could the Genera doc be made available in HTML or PDF format
> through the Web ?
>
> It's been on my list of things to do. There was a rumor that someone in
> Germany had actually done some working to get the document examiner
> to output to html, but both John Mallery and my attempts to contact
> the revelant party never received
> any answer.
>
> Well, I work at what was Symbolics Graphics Division (and now
> is Nichimen Graphics). So I do have all the equipment for trying
> to do that. If I reach some goal, could the doc be made publicly
> available ?
>
> I think so, but I'll have to check with management to be certain. If I were
> to do the project, I'd use John Mallery's CL-HTTP server and just output HTML
> from the document database instead of styled text (to the Lispm window version)
> or postscript (to the printed version).
That's a possibility.
> (Even whitout an HTML converter, Document examiner can print
> postcript to files, which can be turned into PDF)
>
> Again, PDF from Postcript, even without Hyperlinks, could
> be a first step to make a lot of people on this list know
> what LispM were all about.
Please let me know if any decision happens.
--
Luca Pisati Voice: (310) 577-0518
Nichimen Graphics Fax: (310) 577-0577
12555 W. Jefferson #285 EMail: pis...@nichimen.com
Los Angeles, CA 90066 Web: http://www.nichimen.com
--------------3B2EEF9C5035110387C37B1A--
Peter Paine
Thanks for pointing it out, Luca.
>Subject: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
>Cc: lis...@math.gatech.edu
>Date: Apr 1997
It has been a year since then, though for Lispm folks this interval seems
to be as nothing. But from another perspective a year can be an age in
global computing evolution. I just wish that we could move the matter on.
For me, the hyper-linking offered by the Docex (and now HTML) is an
important aspect. If the nature of typical Docex enquiries and browsing is
intrinsically multi-dimensional and user directed, then "page turning"
linear portings seem to throw away a lot of what the Docex offers.
There are other plain Lisp references available online. I see the value of
the Docex resting in how it allows Genera to be explored in-the-round, but
then the user will need the search, index, history and other support tools.
For most uses I think that the Genera Docex would be something to download,
"app" and data files as a whole.
I don't see the Docex itself being the issue, rather the Genera
documentation. Which might help keep SLUG alive by allowing access to new
users, even evangelise it to some extent.
Luca Pisati
Peter Paine wrote:
>
> Thanks for pointing it out, Luca.
>
> >Subject: Publishing Genera doc in HTML (was: About lispOS...)
> >Cc: lis...@math.gatech.edu
> >Date: Apr 1997
>
> It has been a year since then, though for Lispm folks this interval seems
> to be as nothing. But from another perspective a year can be an age in
> global computing evolution. I just wish that we could move the matter on.
I would love to move on.
> For me, the hyper-linking offered by the Docex (and now HTML) is an
> important aspect. If the nature of typical Docex enquiries and browsing is
> intrinsically multi-dimensional and user directed, then "page turning"
> linear portings seem to throw away a lot of what the Docex offers.
I agree. For the little I worked on Concordia, though, I think an "export to html"
should be pretty feasible. Even something through Tex (a la HyperSpecs) and then
to html should be ok.
> There are other plain Lisp references available online. I see the value of
> the Docex resting in how it allows Genera to be explored in-the-round, but
> then the user will need the search, index, history and other support tools.
> For most uses I think that the Genera Docex would be something to download,
> "app" and data files as a whole.
I remember the Mac Docex application, that would allow you to have Docex access
from a Mac, but I don't remember if it needed to run on a MacIvory, though.
If not, maybe that should be the perfect "app".
> I don't see the Docex itself being the issue, rather the Genera
> documentation. Which might help keep SLUG alive by allowing access to new
> users, even evangelise it to some extent.
The only question is: what about (C) ??
If this issue would be cleaned, then I would jump on doing it.
Anybody out there has any idea on what the (C) restrictions could be ??
Rainer Joswig
At 15:16 20.04.98 +0000, Peter Paine wrote:
>For me, the hyper-linking offered by the Docex
The Document Examiner is a very good application.
> (and now HTML) is an important aspect.
I don't like HTML that much. It doesn't know much about
structuring text. Most of the time it is not very
dynamic. If it would come out of a document database
it would be much better. Typical HTML documentations
are static.
>For most uses I think that the Genera Docex would be something to download,
>"app" and data files as a whole.
I would prefer something with a flexible web server. Like
InfoBook based on CL-HTTP. Actually the Document Examiner
data should be rich enough to generate a perfect
HTML-based documentation.
>I don't see the Docex itself being the issue, rather the Genera
>documentation. Which might help keep SLUG alive by allowing access to new
>users, even evangelise it to some extent.
I agree completely. But who has the time? And the knowledge?
Tim Bradshaw
* Rainer Joswig wrote:
> I would prefer something with a flexible web server. Like
> InfoBook based on CL-HTTP. Actually the Document Examiner
> data should be rich enough to generate a perfect
> HTML-based documentation.
I think the right thing to do would be to do a once-off conversion of
the docs (from whatever form they existed in, which I don't really
know about as I've never had concordial) into some suitably rich
format like some XML dtd, and then use CL-HTTP + a parser (there seem
to be a couple of (possibly partial) XML parsers associated with it)
to serve dynamically-generated HTML to people from (cached versions
of) the XML parse.
Doing this would be an interesting demonstration of capability
although I think the actual interest in the documents would mostly be
historical by now unfortunately.
--tim
Allan Wechsler
[Tim Bradshaw:]
* Rainer Joswig wrote:
> I would prefer something with a flexible web server. Like
> InfoBook based on CL-HTTP. Actually the Document Examiner
> data should be rich enough to generate a perfect
> HTML-based documentation.
I think the right thing to do would be to do a once-off conversion of
the docs (from whatever form they existed in, which I don't really
know about as I've never had concordial) into some suitably rich
format like some XML dtd, and then use CL-HTTP + a parser (there seem
to be a couple of (possibly partial) XML parsers associated with it)
to serve dynamically-generated HTML to people from (cached versions
of) the XML parse.
as Rainer complains, but surely _some_ tag set would be rich enough.
Compression has become a non-issue; the whole corpus would fit handily
on a CD.
-A
Peter Paine
At 8:50 PM +0000 98/4/20, Luca Pisati wrote:
>I remember the Mac Docex application, that would allow you to have Docex
>access
>from a Mac, but I don't remember if it needed to run on a MacIvory, though.
>If not, maybe that should be the perfect "app".
Well remembered. I have never seen the sources to this.
>> I don't see the Docex itself being the issue, rather the Genera
>> documentation. Which might help keep SLUG alive by allowing access to new
>> users, even evangelise it to some extent.
>
>The only question is: what about (C) ??
>
>If this issue would be cleaned, then I would jump on doing it.
Exactly. I am with you.
From previous discussions on the subject it appeared that community
interest in Genera seemed to infer commercial value in it, hence the
ownership issues retreated ever further. A catch 22 sort of situation.
The more interest that the community has in keeping Genera alive the more
inclined "owners" are to act in a manner which is likely to keep throttling
it (like keeping it invisible).
Perhaps there are new ownership battles afoot, in which case can we hope to
influence the outcome such that new management appreciate that it is in
Genera's interest (and any commercial ones too) that it is kept alive, and
to that end visible.
Lispms evolved from ivory towers into expensive boxes for the elite.
I wonder what future seperating Genera development environment products
from Genera sources and documentation. Such that the latter can become
accessible, hence benefiting the former (if there is still felt to be life
in it). This sounds like heracy in a commercial sense, but maybe it is
time to think of something completely different - conventional business
strategies do not seem to have the remotest chance of working. This is a
fashion industry.
Back to the issues - IPR and ownership of what was Symbolics. Can anyone
enlighten the SLUG world?
Coquereaux
>At 8:50 PM +0000 98/4/20, Luca Pisati wrote:
>>I remember the Mac Docex application, that would allow you to have Docex
>>access
>>from a Mac, but I don't remember if it needed to run on a MacIvory, though.
>>If not, maybe that should be the perfect "app".
>
>Well remembered. I have never seen the sources to this.
>
There was a Macintosh Application called " MacintoshDocumentExaminer" also
known as DEX.
The documents read by this application had to be written with the Producer
System.
One first had to restore the Lisp Machine Files for Producer
and then load the Producer System into Genera
(but Concordia has to be also loaded before performing this step).
One was first writing a document set by using Concordia (or use an already
existing set)
It was then translated to a document (and an associated set of files of
type DocumentExaminer@)
by the Producer System.
These last files could finally be read by the Macintosh Application
"Document Examiner" on
ANY kind of macintosh (without requiring the presence of an Ivory
processor, of course... since this was clearly the interest of this
application).
Actually I just checked that this DEX application still works fine with an
FX running system 7.5.3 and also with a Macintosh Powerbook running sytem
8.0. I can read all the provided examples without any trouble.
I have a copy of Macintosh Document Examiner version 3.0 and a few examples.
I have also the Producer Lisp System (version 2.0, also called 437... )
Sorry, only bin files.
There is however something wrong: I just check the Producer System on a
Mac Ivory and tried to convert a few SAB files. Everything seems OK,
but... it produces Macintosh files that have a version number older than
those required by the Macintosh DEX application. In other words, the two
necessary programs that are supposed to work one after another, the
Producer (on the Ivory) and the Mac Document Examiner (on the Mac) should
have, somehow, compatible versions numbers. My Producer systems seems a bit
old. Maybe this can be fixed by using ResEdit... but I did not manage.
The size of the whole thing is about 1 Mega (the size of the Document
Examiner Mac Application is only 147 K). Of course it can be easily
compressed.
If anybody wants to play with this, I can certainly send it by e-mail or
otherwise.
I believe that many people on sl...@ai.sri.com have already a working copy
of this mac application, but it seems that the Producer System was not so
well known and seems hard to find...
Several years ago, I tried to get a more recent version, without any success.
The last exchange of messages on the Slug list did not mention this
Producer System...
Well, it exists. Maybe this can be of interest for those who want to
"Produce" an html converter
Bye
Robert Coquereaux
Robert Coquereaux
Groupe "Interactions Fondamentales"
Centre de Physique Theorique
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
Case 907 - Campus de Luminy
13288 MARSEILLE Cedex 9 FRANCE
Tel (33) 4 91 26 95 18
Fax (33) 4 91 26 95 53
email: co...@cpt.univ-mrs.fr