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The HarmConsentRule (HCR)

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Trevor Watkins

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Dec 27, 2024, 3:27:05 AM12/27/24
to Individualist Movement
Once again, I welcome any comments or criticisms which wold improve this document.

The HarmConsentRule (HCR)


Render no harm without consent, except in self-defense


The HarmConsent rule (HCR) provides a brief and simple statement for assessing the morality of human behaviour. It applies to everyone, everywhere, at all times. It provides a template against which all human action can be tested. 


The HCR emphasizes individual rights, freedom, the rule of law, respect for others, property rights, and the right to self-defense. It rejects the use of arbitrary coercive force by anyone, including governments. Some harms can be consented to, such as surgical procedures or participation in contact sports.


The HCR is so brief that anyone can understand it, and apply it. It is as clear and simple as the Hippocratic oath - First do no harm. 

Motivation

Since biblical times mankind has struggled to define which acts should be permitted and which should be forbidden in a desirable and peaceful society.

The ten commandments specify just 2 impermissible acts, killing and stealing. All the rest are recommendations relevant to a specific culture.

The non-aggression principle (NAP) forbids all aggressive or harmful actions, including playing contact sports or performing surgery.

Most national constitutions are long and often contradictory. The common law is useful, but is not universal, nor even that common. The less said about state legislative law the better.


The HCR provides a template against which the many complex ethical and moral issues facing humanity can be tested. When faced with a dilemma, such as abortion, or capital punishment, or immigration, many organisations advocating individual freedom differ strongly. How do you come to a rational decision on which position to support? 


By asking just 3 questions you can apply the HCR to most situations. (The “victim” is the individual suffering harm.}

  1. Did the “victim” initiate an unjustified attack on anyone?

  2. Did the “victim” suffer real, physical harm? 

  3. Did the “victim” consent to that harm?


  HCR Decision tree

HCR Decision Tree.jpg


Definitions 

The HarmConsentRule applies to ALL individuals. It does not have exceptions for wealth, age, gender, position. The rule applies equally to a penniless female child, and to a wealthy and powerful man.


“Individual” is defined as an independent, sentient, human entity.


Harm” is any act which physically damages the target individual. Not all harms are negative, eg surgery.


Consent” is given when an individual authorises an action affecting themselves. Consent should be informed, explicit, freely given, preferably before witnesses, without fraud or falsehood.

Enforcement

Who enforces the HCR? This question betrays a deeply statist mindset. It denies all individual agency in favour of a violent state. The HCR is not enforced. It is adopted by people seeking a consistent worldview, and who hope others will share that worldview simply because it is more consistent.

Issues

Because we have lacked a reliable standard of conduct, a large number of commonplace actions which contradict the HarmConsent rule have become widely acceptable . Many of these actions are perpetrated by groups such as government, ostensibly for our own good. For example

  1. Taxation.
    Unless consented to, taxation harms the targeted individual using theft. 

  2. Conscription
    Forcible abduction, generally by the state.

  3. Freedom of movement.
    Passports, state border controls, restricting an individual's harmless freedom of movement constitutes a harm to them.

  4. Freedom of speech
    Restricting an individual's freedom of speech constitutes a harm to them.

  5. Medical mandates
    Forcing individuals to abide by a particular medical protocol constitutes a harm to them.

  6. Currency controls
    Restricting your choice of currencies, limiting your ability to deploy your own funds, constitutes a harm to you.

Trevor Watkins 26th December 2024

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to someone else. The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. 


Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.



Gabri Rigotti

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Dec 27, 2024, 1:31:04 PM12/27/24
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Hi Trevor

The choice of the six items is excellent, as these surely address the majority of instances when the state or others use physical force or the threat of physical force, aka violence, to enforce “compliance” from the individual.


There are of course many more items one could add but an 80/20 approach as a focus principle is an efficient and effective real world approach to reduce the vast majority of instances of state or other violence by addressing the least number of issues that can secure the greatest outcome.



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Charl Heydenrych

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Dec 27, 2024, 6:08:24 PM12/27/24
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This is the first time (?) that I have commented on The HCR.

Here goes:

Do anything but...HCR
For any action require no permission but...HCR
Take any action but... HCR

I am looking for a preface to the HCR that indicates that all human actions are permissible other than those that violate the HCR.

You may have discussed this before, but as I say I have not really participated... 

Regards

CHARL

Gabri Rigotti

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Dec 28, 2024, 4:22:32 AM12/28/24
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I like your jump start prefix idea Charl ...

I would say your first one is great, "Do anything but...HCR" ...

Minimal ...

Regards
Gabri

Stephen van Jaarsveldt

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Dec 28, 2024, 8:01:23 PM12/28/24
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I have several issues with the post below.

1. A person who initiates violence is not a victim. A medical procedure which cures something cannot be considered harmful and I fail to see any other type of medical procedure. Currency controls do not do physical harm, so if you include that, you have to also include not using my preferred pronouns and a chapter on micro-agressions in the workplace. There are a number of other such objections, but the next two objections will automatically address all of them.

2. Harm is of no relevance. I don't like the title of HCR for a number of reasons, but the superfluous nature of Harm in that acronym is my top gripe. The difference between rape and sex is consent - sex can harm, yet be desirable. The difference between tax and charity is consent. The difference between a generous gift vs. handing my car keys over at gun-point is consent. Harm is entirely irrelevant and is not the deciding factor in determining the moral binary answer you're looking for. To include harm is to muddy the waters and introduce unnecessary complexity.

3. Very few people are out to harm others and you don't need a moral philosophy to protect yourself or your social circle from it... all you need to prevent harm is a dog and a gun. Far more concerning are peope who would do things to prevent harm or who do things for your own good... like regulating firearms and licensing dogs or insisting to pay for your healthcare or gathering up all the political power available to ensure your children are educated or banning micro-plastics. Those kinds of threats deserve far more of a moral compas and counter-acting social cooperation.

You may as well change Harm Consent Rule to Do-gooder Consent Rule... but if you simply remove all references to Harm, I would probably agree to 99.9% of what was left... but as it stands, I'm closer to 50:50... and the 50% I object to is with a defiant fist in the air.

S.


viv...@iafrica.com

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Dec 29, 2024, 1:36:49 AM12/29/24
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Great answer thanks. I also think the statement means 'violence' but says harm, to avoid being specific. Words can be harmful, but are not violence. "Hurt' feelings implied harm has been done, but the axiom appears to be addressing something that physically stops you in your tracks. The statement is khumbaya of the highest order.


From: "Stephen van Jaarsveldt" <sjaar...@gmail.com>
To: "individualist" <indivi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2024 3:01:07 AM
Subject: Re: IM: The HarmConsentRule (HCR)

Trevor Watkins

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Dec 29, 2024, 2:30:17 AM12/29/24
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In red below

Trevor Watkins .. cSASI
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one



On Sun, 29 Dec 2024 at 03:01, Stephen van Jaarsveldt <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have several issues with the post below.

1. A person who initiates violence is not a victim. Not true on several levels. In this doc I tried to parse the meaning of the HCR, and discovered to my surprise that one must start with the last clause "Except in self-defense" first. I repeat "The “victim” is the individual suffering harm". A "victim" in a mugging may well initiate harm, but is justified by the particular circumstances. In judging whether a harm is justified, you must first establish if it was committed in self-defense. If yes, no HCR violation occurs.  A medical procedure which cures something cannot be considered harmful If I have to be careful with my choice of words, so must you. Almost all medical procedures will cause some harm to the patient (surgery, medication), but are acceptable if consented to by the patient. (How about a procedure to stop the patient from smoking which the patient does not consent to. If it works you could call it a cure, but that is irrelevant.) and I fail to see any other type of medical procedure. Currency controls do not do physical harm, of course they do! they stop you from using YOUR OWN MONEY for the purposes you intended. That is a harm just like theft at gunpoint.  so if you include that, you have to also include not using my preferred pronouns and a chapter on micro-agressions in the workplace no real world physical harm occurs. There are a number of other such objections, but the next two objections will automatically address all of them.

2. Harm is of no relevance. Hippocrates begged to differ, "first do no harm". I don't like the title of HCR for a number of reasons, but the superfluous nature of Harm in that acronym is my top gripe. "Harm" replaces the word "action"  from the Consent axiom, which was too non-specific. The difference between rape and sex is consent - sex can harm, yet be desirable. That is the problem with the NAP. The difference between tax and charity is consent. Tax is always a harm, charity is a choice. The difference between a generous gift vs. handing my car keys over at gun-point is consent. Harm is entirely irrelevant and is not the deciding factor in determining the moral binary answer you're looking for. To include harm is to muddy the waters and introduce unnecessary complexity. I beg to differ. Do you have a better word for describing the thing you're consenting to, and why?

3. Very few people are out to harm others between 5 and 10% of almost every population. In SA thats more than 3m people. I believe a gun and a philosophy are both essential, to avoid being classified as part of the 5%.  and you don't need a moral philosophy to protect yourself or your social circle from it... all you need to prevent harm is a dog and a gun good luck explaining your moral objection to the tax department using your dog and gun.. Far more concerning are peope who would do things to prevent harm or who do things for your own good... like regulating firearms and licensing dogs or insisting to pay for your healthcare or gathering up all the political power available to ensure your children are educated or banning micro-plastics. Those kinds of threats deserve far more of a moral compas and counter-acting social cooperation. I agree, hence HCR

You may as well change Harm Consent Rule to Do-gooder Consent Rule... but if you simply remove all references to Harm, I would probably agree to 99.9% of what was left... but as it stands, I'm closer to 50:50... and the 50% I object to is with a defiant fist in the air. 
Thanks for the comments - always useful to see other's interpretations of the obvious😀 

Sid Nothard

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Dec 29, 2024, 3:06:59 AM12/29/24
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The first action in the flow diagram: “Did the victim initiate an unjustified attack on anyone?”

 

          How does the “Victim” initiate an attack on someone else?  The injured party is the victim

          And why should a “victim” ever agree to being injured?

If a party knowingly agrees to being injured then he is no longer a “Victim”

 

The “Victim” needs to be defined.

 

         In order to be meaningful the HCR needs to be enforced, so that a victim is compensated for the loss/suffering,

         

          I personally prefer the Neo-Tech Prime Law:

 

          The Prime Law®*

          (The Fundamental of Protection)

 Preamble

*The purpose of human life is to prosper and live happily.

*The function of government is to provide the conditions that let individuals fulfill that purpose.

*The Prime Law guarantees those conditions by forbidding the use of initiatory force, fraud, or coercion by any person or group against any individual, property, or contract.

Article 1

No person, group of persons, or government shall initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against any individual’s self, property, or contract.

Article 2

Force is morally-and-legally justified only for protection from those who violate Article 1.

Article 3

No exceptions shall exist for Articles 1 and 2.

 

Sid

 

From: indivi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:indivi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen van Jaarsveldt
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2024 3:01 AM
To: indivi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IM: The HarmConsentRule (HCR)

 

I have several issues with the post below.

 

1. A person who initiates violence is not a victim. A medical procedure which cures something cannot be considered harmful and I fail to see any other type of medical procedure. Currency controls do not do physical harm, so if you include that, you have to also include not using my preferred pronouns and a chapter on micro-agressions in the workplace. There are a number of other such objections, but the next two objections will automatically address all of them.

 

2. Harm is of no relevance. I don't like the title of HCR for a number of reasons, but the superfluous nature of Harm in that acronym is my top gripe. The difference between rape and sex is consent - sex can harm, yet be desirable. The difference between tax and charity is consent. The difference between a generous gift vs. handing my car keys over at gun-point is consent. Harm is entirely irrelevant and is not the deciding factor in determining the moral binary answer you're looking for. To include harm is to muddy the waters and introduce unnecessary complexity.

 

3. Very few people are out to harm others and you don't need a moral philosophy to protect yourself or your social circle from it... all you need to prevent harm is a dog and a gun. Far more concerning are peope who would do things to prevent harm or who do things for your own good... like regulating firearms and licensing dogs or insisting to pay for your healthcare or gathering up all the political power available to ensure your children are educated or banning micro-plastics. Those kinds of threats deserve far more of a moral compas and counter-acting social cooperation.

 

You may as well change Harm Consent Rule to Do-gooder Consent Rule... but if you simply remove all references to Harm, I would probably agree to 99.9% of what was left... but as it stands, I'm closer to 50:50... and the 50% I object to is with a defiant fist in the air.

 

S.

 

Op Vr. 27 Des. 2024 om 01:27 het Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> geskryf:

Once again, I welcome any comments or criticisms which wold improve this document.

 

The HarmConsentRule (HCR)

 

Render no harm without consent, except in self-defense

 

The HarmConsent rule (HCR) provides a brief and simple statement for assessing the morality of human behaviour. It applies to everyone, everywhere, at all times. It provides a template against which all human action can be tested. 

 

The HCR emphasizes individual rights, freedom, the rule of law, respect for others, property rights, and the right to self-defense. It rejects the use of arbitrary coercive force by anyone, including governments. Some harms can be consented to, such as surgical procedures or participation in contact sports.

 

The HCR is so brief that anyone can understand it, and apply it. It is as clear and simple as the Hippocratic oath - First do no harm. 

Motivation

Since biblical times mankind has struggled to define which acts should be permitted and which should be forbidden in a desirable and peaceful society.

The ten commandments specify just 2 impermissible acts, killing and stealing. All the rest are recommendations relevant to a specific culture.

The non-aggression principle (NAP) forbids all aggressive or harmful actions, including playing contact sports or performing surgery.

Most national constitutions are long and often contradictory. The common law is useful, but is not universal, nor even that common. The less said about state legislative law the better.

 

The HCR provides a template against which the many complex ethical and moral issues facing humanity can be tested. When faced with a dilemma, such as abortion, or capital punishment, or immigration, many organisations advocating individual freedom differ strongly. How do you come to a rational decision on which position to support? 

 

By asking just 3 questions you can apply the HCR to most situations. (The “victim” is the individual suffering harm.}

1.     Did the “victim” initiate an unjustified attack on anyone?

2.     Did the “victim” suffer real, physical harm? 

3.     Did the “victim” consent to that harm?


  HCR Decision tree

HCR Decision Tree.jpg

 

Definitions 

The HarmConsentRule applies to ALL individuals. It does not have exceptions for wealth, age, gender, position. The rule applies equally to a penniless female child, and to a wealthy and powerful man.

 

“Individual” is defined as an independent, sentient, human entity.

 

Harm” is any act which physically damages the target individual. Not all harms are negative, eg surgery.

 

Consent” is given when an individual authorises an action affecting themselves. Consent should be informed, explicit, freely given, preferably before witnesses, without fraud or falsehood.

Enforcement

Who enforces the HCR? This question betrays a deeply statist mindset. It denies all individual agency in favour of a violent state. The HCR is not enforced. It is adopted by people seeking a consistent worldview, and who hope others will share that worldview simply because it is more consistent.

Issues

Because we have lacked a reliable standard of conduct, a large number of commonplace actions which contradict the HarmConsent rule have become widely acceptable . Many of these actions are perpetrated by groups such as government, ostensibly for our own good. For example

1.     Taxation.

Unless consented to, taxation harms the targeted individual using theft. 

2.     Conscription


Forcible abduction, generally by the state.

3.     Freedom of movement.


Passports, state border controls, restricting an individual's harmless freedom of movement constitutes a harm to them.

4.     Freedom of speech


Restricting an individual's freedom of speech constitutes a harm to them.

5.     Medical mandates


Forcing individuals to abide by a particular medical protocol constitutes a harm to them.

6.     Currency controls


Restricting your choice of currencies, limiting your ability to deploy your own funds, constitutes a harm to you.

Trevor Watkins 26th December 2024

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to someone else. The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. 

 

Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

 

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image001.jpg

Stephen vJ

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Dec 29, 2024, 4:47:25 AM12/29/24
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I think you misunderstood a few of my points, Trevor, but that's ok - I'm not going to try to correct those, as, burning being the point, I'd rather just add fuel to the fire.

If I am ever terminally ill, I hope that someone will do me the grievous and fatal bodily harm I ask for, purely because I consent to and desire such violent harm. If someone I care deeply about is in trouble, and, having harm done to me will save them, I am likely to consent to having harm done to me. Such is the role of a father. If I find a strange man in my house at 3 a.m. it must be understood by all involved that the great harm coming to him has been implicitly consented to at the time of entry. Harm is irrelevant, only consent is.

Maybe a contrary example will help... I would not want any good done to me without my consent either i.e. I would not want to be cured of smoking without my consent or have my borders patrolled or be given $75 million without having consented to it... and if you think that doesn't make sense, then you have not properly thought through what getting $75 million would mean to someone like me (not you, because this is my consent we're talking about, not yours). I don't want others paying my medical bills or educating my children for free or anything else without my consent. What others consider good (or harmful) is still subject to my consent.

You're trying to define Good vs. Evil and I'm saying only consent is needed to measure it. Harm is not the critical factor. Consent can stand alone. Harm is subject to some 3rd party evaluation and maybe that's why you keep wanting to justify it - it makes sense to you and your imaginary jury. Consent is subjective and purely in the hands or mind of the subject. It is the purest form of freedom and up to the individual. You can ask "did this do harm" and anyone can have an opinion, but you cannot ask "did he consent" without asking only that one person involved who's consent is the subject of the question. With consent there is no debate - it is purely up to that individual... and that is the core of individualism, liberty and freedom.

In fact, as I'm writing this, I am realizing again what damage Ayn Rand and the Objectivists have done. Freedom has to be subjective and individualist - you cannot be objective in the common use of the word without introducing at least some measure of collectivism. You're trying to be objective and that is leading you down a rabbit hole of measuring harm from a non-subjective perspective... and in freedom & individualism, that simply won't work. You must remain absolutely subjective.

It's nice and warm here by the light of Carl Menger and Eugene von Baumbawerk's subjectivist fireplace. I hope someday soon you'll join us here for some higher order Khumbaya.

Stephen.

On Dec 29, 2024, at 00:30, Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:



Stephen vJ

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Dec 29, 2024, 4:48:26 AM12/29/24
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That sounds suspiciously like NAP.

Stephen.

On Dec 29, 2024, at 01:07, Sid Nothard <sg...@mweb.co.za> wrote:




  HCR Decision tree

image001.jpg

Stephen vJ

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Dec 29, 2024, 5:22:28 AM12/29/24
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Oh boy, I read it again and maybe shouldn't have...

The purpose of human life is to prosper and live happily ? Well if life had any purpose (assuming some very gross personification of Life), I doubt happily would be anywhere near the top 5. To reproduce seems glaringly missing and if prosperity was a purpose it is sad to think that almost everyone through almost all of history have failed in this glorious purpose. Individuals may strive for prosperity and happiness, so that many may be said to consider that the purpose in (not of) their lives, but even this is definitely not universal. Monks deliberately avoid prosperity and if pure happiness was a primary driver we would see a lot more people on LSD.

The function of government is to provide the conditions that let individuals fulfill that purpose ? In theory, maybe, but in practice there is nothing else on this planet that has been so contrary to the facilitation of prosperity and happiness as government. Nowhere has any government ever done anything but the very opposite of that theoretical purpose. If government really facilitated happiness and prosperity, tax would not need to be enforced - people would shower them with money like they're the pimp / dealer / merry-go-round ticket booth / whatever makes you happy store.

The rest is a might-makes-right manifesto... and maybe there is no practical way around that. Maybe we are doomed to have institutions which use force to at least provide some structure and predictability and semblance of legitimacy to disputes, arguments and disagreements. Maybe some political power is preferable to mob justice. However, we are so disproportionately outnumbered and outgunned by those in power right now, that any movement towards anarchy must be an improvement. Once we start seeing it on the horizon, we can debate about where to stop, but right now any argument for more government or any government or not substantially less government, is divorced from reality.

I also now get why Trevor said this is a voluntary society of like-minded people, rather than a movement intent on bringing about Utopia. In a absolute world, individualism (or DoGooderConsentRule) would have to be enforced and that would be a contradiction... but within this local context, it is good enough to have a society of like-minded people agreeing with themselves to live a mindful and demure life, based on certain well debated principles. At least one little patch of this earth will be better for it, and who knows, maybe it catches on. Things often miss their purpose, but that shouldn't stop us trying.

Stephen.

On Dec 29, 2024, at 02:48, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

That sounds suspiciously like NAP.

Sid Nothard

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Dec 29, 2024, 5:54:31 AM12/29/24
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image001.jpg

Sid Nothard

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Dec 29, 2024, 6:14:45 AM12/29/24
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There must be a means of dealing with criminals and the enforcement of contracts.

If contracts cannot be enforced then the contract becomes meaningless.

So it seems to me that limited government institutions are unavoidable.

 

Yes, no government anywhere gives a hoot about these matters because they are all based on the

Platonic model in which the people are ruled by the “Elite” who are in it for their own short term gain.

So government structures need to be completely overhauled, but that is not likely to happen in the near

future because those with political power will cling to it even if it means climbing over a mountain of skulls.

 

Sid

image001.jpg

viv...@iafrica.com

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Dec 29, 2024, 6:42:35 AM12/29/24
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Thank you.


From: "Stephen vJ" <sjaar...@gmail.com>
To: "individualist" <indivi...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "individualist" <indivi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2024 12:22:13 PM

Trevor Watkins

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Dec 29, 2024, 9:16:01 AM12/29/24
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I take Sid and Stephen's point - my definition of victim was not obvious to everybody (I try to be as brief as possible, which is often a fault). I have rewritten that section of the essay as follows:

Most conflicts between 2 or more individuals involve some form of violence. How do you apportion blame, if any, for such incidents?
By asking just 3 questions you can apply the HCR to most situations.
Was anyone acting in self-defense?
Did any victim suffer real, physical harm?
Did the victim of the harm consent to that harm?

Scenario 1
As an expert on the HCR, imagine you are asked to resolve a conflict between 2 individuals,  Bob and Mike. Witnesses at the scene confirm that Bob attacked Mike and wrestled him to the ground. It seems like a simple case of initiated violence for which Bob is responsible. However, it emerges that Mike had stolen Bob’s wallet at knife-point, and Bob was defending himself and his property, as is his right. No HCR violation by Bob.
Key point: always establish if the use of force was justified before leaping to a conclusion. Simpler rules such as the NAP do not make this critical distinction.

Scenario 2
Jill accuses Jack of causing her severe mental harm by insulting her in public. No real, physical harm to Jill is observed. Jack asserts his right to free speech. No HCR violation by Jack.
Key point: if no actual harm occurs, there is no HCR violation.  

Scenario 3
Paul is observed choking to death in a restaurant by Dr Jim. Paul is unconscious. Dr Jim performs a tracheotomy, which saves Paul’s life. Paul sues Dr Jim for committing violence against him without his consent. Dr Jim is guilty of an HCR violation.
Key point: you can never assume consent.

All these cases would be subject to a review by a jury of peers.

Trevor Watkins .. cSASI
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one


Sid Nothard

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Dec 29, 2024, 11:44:20 AM12/29/24
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The only thing a person has is his good name – his reputation.

It takes years to build it, and it can be destroyed in a flash.

 

Damage to one’s reputation may not cause any immediate physical harm, but the damage can be far reaching

and as bad as being choked to death, only much slower.

 

Sid

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Stephen vJ

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Dec 29, 2024, 3:06:03 PM12/29/24
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I'm with Sid on this one. Being called "Stefan" by someone you thought was a close friend hurts just as much as having your motorcycle stolen. Taken property is not physical harm any more than an insult is. When I got to that empty parking spot on that cold Tuesday morning, helmet in hand, there was none of my blood on the ground and yet it felt like my heart had been ripped from my chest, as if I had just been called Stefan again. Harm can take many forms and dismissing emotional harm is inconsistent - either exclude property or include emotions, because the two are one and the same.

Stephen.

On Dec 29, 2024, at 09:44, Sid Nothard <sg...@mweb.co.za> wrote:




  HCR Decision tree

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Stephen vJ

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Dec 29, 2024, 3:18:06 PM12/29/24
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The software platform / environment Second Life is now 21 years old, has an active population of almost 1 million people and an annual GDP of something like $500mil/year. From day 1 they said that everything that happens in Second Life is virtual, partly owned by the platform and agreements made between users in it will NOT be enforced. Millions of contracts have been concluded in Second Life without the need for government, despite the very obvious contender being right at hand in the owners / developers of the platform. The few real-world court cases that have been created so far were mostly users against the platform, rather than users against each other. If this long-running experiment is anything to go by, we are greatly exaggerating the need for mediation of contracts between people. The vast majority of people can work most of the time on pure trust and reputation. Furthermore, Second Life encourages pseudonyms, and, creating additional personas is free & easy, so you'd imagine identification and attribution of poor behavior to individuals would be hard... and thus for a reputation-based system like this to fail quickly and spectacularly... yet, it has not. I think we underestimate people's ability to act in socially beneficial ways all on their own and without supervision. If only there were some kind of label with which to refer to the principle of letting people do what they want...

Stephen.

On Dec 29, 2024, at 04:14, Sid Nothard <sg...@mweb.co.za> wrote:




  HCR Decision tree

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Trevor Watkins

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Dec 30, 2024, 2:17:56 AM12/30/24
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A person does not own their reputation - it exists in the minds of others. You cannot easily force others to hold a good opinion of you. In fact, any attempt to do so is likely to only make your reputation in their minds worse. 
I am held in bad repute by billions - muslims, christians, socialists. In the words of Pik Botha, it is like duck's water off my back. Their awful opinion of me does me no harm that I can discern. 

Trevor Watkins .. cSASI
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one


Trevor Watkins

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Dec 30, 2024, 2:35:11 AM12/30/24
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Oh diddums, Steven. Have I just caused you irreparable harm, or hurt? Sorry Steve.

"Taken property is not physical harm". Oh well, there goes the "right to own property" of the whole freedom movement.
On the bike, I understand your pain. The only time I had a real nervous breakdown was on discovering all the tyres on my truck had been pinched for the second time. If we can't agree that theft is harm, what is the point?

"either exclude property or include emotions, because the two are one and the same." So that's how the woke movement got started. Your emotions exist only inside your head. They come out only as words.  They can't wander over and smack me in the head, unless I choose to let them.  Having strong emotions and expressing them is a right called free speech. Physically acting against someone on your emotion is a harm, and is forbidden.

Trevor Watkins .. cSASI
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one


Stephen vJ

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Dec 30, 2024, 3:51:28 AM12/30/24
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Your concept of "rights" means nothing to me. Rights implies some authority to enforce such rights and the nebulous collectivist concept of generally acceptance of such rights. I reject rights on both counts - the group cannot and must not outrank the individual. Thus, the only thing that matters is consent, regardless of reason and reasoning.

Stephen.

On Dec 30, 2024, at 00:35, Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:



Sid Nothard

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Dec 30, 2024, 6:55:24 AM12/30/24
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Lose your reputation with your business associates and you will starve..

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Stephen vJ

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Dec 30, 2024, 2:58:12 PM12/30/24
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The demographic with the strongest focus on their reputation must be human teenagers. Their incredible inclination to conform to every minutiae of speech, clothing, taste and even mannerisms of their peers, despite the separation that sometimes causes with the entire remainder of society and the occasional mortal danger they expose themselves to as a result is fascinating, until you realize that this is also the prime period for procreation - the real meaning of Life. To the rest of us, no longer thinking exclusively from the pants, this extreme reputationally driven activity seems irrational and stupid, but actually it makes perfect sense. Nowhere is reputation as important as when we are aiming to make our genes immortal during the limited period of our mortal lives during which that is most likely to happen, if at all.

Freedom and individuality are inextricably linked to each other and the individual should be free to do whatever they like, since natural consequences outperform artificially induced ones hands down every time. The problem is when the actions of one individual conflicts with those of another individual, so what we are looking for is a moral compass with little or no artificial compulsion and which only comes into play in cases of conflict.

Of course the kid who acts awkwardly will be less likely to reproduce - there's plenty of incentive already built into the whole experience of being a teenager for us to not need to add to it. Of course Trevor can call me names, but that does not make it advisable if his aim is to persuade or remain friends. Of course we should respect each other's property, but that does not justify the existence of a huge monster called government who would happily hug you to death. Of course we should be protective of our reputations and should eat healthily and go to the gym and be kind to others... but none of these are absolutely mandated or provide a clear measure of morality. Only consent does that.

Stephen.

On Dec 30, 2024, at 04:55, Sid Nothard <sg...@mweb.co.za> wrote:




  HCR Decision tree

image001.jpg

Trevor Watkins

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Dec 31, 2024, 1:08:52 AM12/31/24
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There you go again Stephen. Writing stuff with which I absolutely agree and can find no real point of dispute. 
I agree that the only real point of existence is to reproduce. Teenagers can influence their "reputation" by carefully controlling their appearance - buff boys, beautiful girls. We adults interfere at our peril, and at the peril of our grandkids.

"Freedom and individuality are inextricably linked to each other". Yup, surprisingly I agree.  " natural consequences outperform artificially induced ones hands down every time". Love that, will probably use it myself sometime in the future (correctly attributed).  Sorry if I caused any offence with your name, it was totally deliberate.

"Only consent does that." Thank you, my existence feels vindicated, and hopefully yours. This is a great way to end the year - a thoughtful article filled with quotable quotes. 

Trevor Watkins .. cSASI
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one