What is SASI - the South African School of Individualism?

[bas...@gmail.com]

Motivation

What are your core principles? Can you describe them? Who shares them with you? What support do you have for them? Do you answer “Don’t know” or “Not sure”  to the great questions of existence? The South African School of Individualism can help.

Brief History

SA has developed a unique libertarian intellectual tradition over the last 40 years. Starting with the very early pioneers such as Marc Swanepoel and Leon Louw meeting in small groups in private homes in Johannesburg in the early 1980’s, it has grown through various incarnations right through to the current day. Organisations such as the Free Market Foundation, the Libertarian Society and the Organisation of Livestock Producers were formed.  Frances Kendall produced The Individualist magazine monthly, and organised the first Libertarian Spring Seminar at Nebo farm in 1985. 

These annual seminars have continued through the intervening 40 years to the 2024 seminar to be held in December in Midrand. Two libertarian parties, KISS and the Federal party, contested the 1994 elections. Several other libertarian parties have contested subsequent elections.

The Libertarian Society organised by Trevor Watkins assembled a membership list of around 400 members, and produced The Libertarian Manifesto, a brief statement of libertarian principles. Following a seminar in 2012, Leon Louw and Trevor Watkins introduced the Consent Axiom which has formed the unique philosophical foundation of South African libertarianism ever since.

In 2018 George Werner and Trevor Watkins launched The Individualist Movement based on The Individualist Manifesto to replace the now moribund Libertarian Society. A website was set up, various email and whatsapp groups kept communications alive, Spring seminars were organised, but the mailing list dwindled to about 200 people, of which less than 40 are active.

Gabri Rigotti, a long-standing member and contributor based in Italy, observed that there was a unique school of libertarian thought in South Africa. Stephen van Jaarsveldt, another long-standing member of the Libertarian Society now living in Canada agreed but recommended that a formal approach with all the due discipline required be taken to promote such a school of thought. This inspired Trevor Watkins to consider establishing a South African School of Individualism to breathe life back into the freedom philosophy in South Africa.

Why individualism rather than libertarianism?

Libertarians are a fringe group, with no clear identity. Currently the best definition of a libertarian is an individual who favours Liberty. That includes just about everyone.   Most of the time libertarians say that they believe in individual liberty without understanding or articulating the full implications of that statement.

We don't belong to anything. We don't know who our comrades are. We don't know what we believe, much less what they believe. We make no stand, we take no risks, we have no loyalties. We live in constant fear of the authority we so despise. Libertarians need an identity with which most can agree. Individualism can provide that identity.

Why a South African  school?

The outstanding difference between the South African freedom movement and its American counterpart is the emphasis on consent over force. In America the predominant libertarian narrative is based on the NAP - the non-aggression principle, the prohibition on the use of initiated force. There are numerous flaws in the NAP which the Consent Axiom addresses. From 2018 the South African Individualist Movement has refined its philosophy to become the Individualist Manifesto whose core principle is the HarmConsentRule (HCR). This is a uniquely South African development.

What is SASI?

SASI is a voluntary association of individuals who subscribe to a particular set of principles as expressed in the Individualist Manifesto and the HarmConsentRule. It is based in South Africa but not restricted to South Africans.

.

Membership of SASI bestows a specific label and  identity on the member.  SASI will register individuals to one of 4 grades of membership - Ordinary (oSASI), Affiliate (aSASI), Fellow (fSASI) and Co-founder (cSASI). Becoming a member of SASI identifies you as an advocate of reason, individual rights, consent. It identifies you as an opponent of initiated force, authoritarianism, socialism and communism.  

SASI may become a standard for the freedom movement, a reference for difficult issues, a go-to for journalists seeking a reasoned and consistent position.

Terms of membership

1. Applicant individuals will provide their full names, email address and cell-phone number on the prescribed online form. The Management of SASI reserves the right to accept or reject applications.

2. Members may choose which  SASI communications to receive.

3. Once accepted for membership they may use the appropriate membership suffix after their names in communications.

4. Cost of membership

   1. Ordinary - oSASI -free

   2. Affiliate - aSASI - $5. Access to SASI T shirt.

   3. Fellow - fSASI - $20, plus an accepted publication in the Journal of the South African School of Individualism. Access to SASI T shirt.

   4. Co-founder - closed list of paid-up original founders of the Individualist Movement.

Benefits of membership

1. You make an unequivocal commitment to a clearly stated philosophical position, to a specific worldview and value system.

2. Your membership makes you relevant and engaged in the great struggle for individual freedom against the forces of communal authoritarianism.

3. Access to all SASI facilities - discussion groups, blogs, websites, seminar notices, Discord server, videos, etc.

4. Exposure to and interchange with like-minded fellows on important issues.

5. A suffix you can use in profiles and email signatures to identify your affiliation.

6. Contribution to a worthwhile freedom-oriented cause.

7. Solidarity with fellow SASI members.

8. Opportunity to shape future SASI policies through debate and scholarly articles.

9. Opportunity to purchase SASI T shirt

10. A SASI suffix allows instant recognition of a like-minded individual 

Problems

1. What if I don’t agree with all the principles in the Individualist Manifesto eg the trial by jury clause?
   There are always grey areas, no matter how hard we try to resolve them. Finally, you alone must decide if you can accept the principles. You can always suggest changes if you become involved.

Next steps

1. Register

   1. online at Individualist Movement website

   2. Using Paypal at Chuffed site

   3. Via email to bas...@gmail.com 

[Stephen vJ]

If I may make another suggestion of the founding kind... an organization should have a clear goal and it should typically be something more than uniting like-minded people.

In fact, uniting likeminded people might be one of the worst possible goals, since;

1. Healthy debate is best done without an echo chamber i.e. with dislike minded people

2. The goal should be some pursuit or measurable output... like, we provide funding for research into AERD, or we manufacture mobile phone cases, or we conduct research into very hard substances.

3. The pursuit should not be ideological...

... and I'm going to interrupt myself right there. I would recommend not doing what many others have done by pre-selecting an outcome and including it in their name, but rather tying the goal to something neutral, like doing no harm or searching for truth, not predetermined like supporting hammerhead sharks or being pro-leaded petrol or lobbying for fluoride in the water supply. Those can over time turn out to be bad or politically loaded or poorly labelled given passage of time.

Personally I am in search of truth and would support any research which advances humans toward the truth, even if that truth conflicts with things I now hold dear. Right now it looks like Individualism is closer to the truth than anything else we know, but this is not a given... and the next wave of awokening might transform the meaning of Individualism to something we would never be caught dead supporting... like happened with liberalism and capitalism and now seemingly even libertarianism.

Individualism may also not be the ultimate truth. A millions years ago when LibDin was still being held at that Italian place up the stairs in Malanshof, I said something about the universal truth of free markets and Neil Emerick pointed out to me that my entire premise is based on the assumption that scarcity will persist... but who is to say that when everyone has a Ferrari and a helicopter and a 3rd house in Margate and we can create food with the push of a button... well, then maybe equality or stability or some other outcome would seem more appropriate and appealing than efficiency. I almost coughed my rum & coke right onto my Mexican pizza... and totally changed my entire outlook on life.

What if our goal is to fund research into the best possible way to arrange society and it turns out that the best possible way is something other than Individualism ? And we cannot do the reverse, which is to pre-empt the outcome of the research by saying something like, our goal is to prove the superiority of individualism over all other social systems. That is not neutral and will have no credibility.

If you guys want a South Africa school of something, I would suggest starting with a neutral goal like, "we provide research scholarships to Masters-level students in Economics, Law, Sociology or Political Science departments of top universities, funded by our private donors, specifically investigating the impacts of individualism on society".

We then come up with specific topics for research, like finding the corellation between Individualims and human happiness or determining the optimal level of individual choice in situations where the individual lacks critical information i.e. choice of treatment where more than one treatment is an option and the patient is not a doctor...

Presumably the research will result in positive outcomes for individualism... and if it doesn't that's also good. A member benefit could be participation in research and early access to the results.

Just thinking out loud here. ;-)

Stephen.

On Aug 11, 2024, at 07:10, bas...@gmail.com <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Stephen vJ]

SASI sounds a bit sassy. How about "The Individualism Research Institute" ? ;-)

Stephen.

On Aug 11, 2024, at 18:27, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I may make another suggestion of the founding kind... an organization should have a clear goal and it should typically be something more than uniting like-minded people.

[Trevor Watkins]

In red below

Trevor Watkins .. cSISA
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 at 02:27, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I may make another suggestion of the founding kind... an organization should have a clear goal and it should typically be something more than uniting like-minded people.

The goal of just about every organisation in history is to bring together like-minded people.  Name an organisation whose goal is to disperse the already dispersed.

In fact, uniting likeminded people might be one of the worst possible goals, since;

1. Healthy debate is best done without an echo chamber i.e. with dislike minded people

Have you ever noticed how hard it is to get individuals to agree on anything? If I can encourage just a little common cause in this narrow community I will be happy.

2. The goal should be some pursuit or measurable output... like, we provide funding for research into AERD, or we manufacture mobile phone cases, or we conduct research into very hard substances.

From "Notes on the Individualist manifesto" -  This manifesto attempts to unite the several strains of the freedom philosophy into one consistent document.  It aspires to be a statement that most seekers of liberty would be willing to accept and share.

3. The pursuit should not be ideological...Why?

... and I'm going to interrupt myself right there. I would recommend not doing what many others have done by pre-selecting an outcome and including it in their name, Huh? but rather tying the goal to something neutral, like doing no harm or searching for truth, not predetermined like supporting hammerhead sharks or being pro-leaded petrol or lobbying for fluoride in the water supply. Those can over time turn out to be bad or politically loaded or poorly labelled given passage of time.

Personally I am in search of truth and would support any research which advances humans toward the truth, even if that truth conflicts with things I now hold dear. Right now it looks like Individualism is closer to the truth than anything else we know, agreed but this is not a given... and the next wave of awokening might transform the meaning of Individualism to something we would never be caught dead supporting... like happened with liberalism and capitalism and now seemingly even libertarianism.

Individualism may also not be the ultimate truth. A millions years ago when LibDin was still being held at that Italian place up the stairs in Malanshof, I said something about the universal truth of free markets and Neil Emerick pointed out to me that my entire premise is based on the assumption that scarcity will persist... but who is to say that when everyone has a Ferrari and a helicopter and a 3rd house in Margate and we can create food with the push of a button... well, then maybe equality or stability or some other outcome would seem more appropriate and appealing than efficiency. I almost coughed my rum & coke right onto my Mexican pizza... and totally changed my entire outlook on life. 

I have had a few such moments, and treasure them. Reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, the unknown ideal" turned me 180 degrees around from being a Wits socialist. Recently, your "How's it smelling" email changed my whole approach to communications in this realm. The idea of a South African school of individualism had the same effect. 

What if our goal is to fund research into the best possible way to arrange society and it turns out that the best possible way is something other than Individualism ? Yip. That's why I shifted from Libertarianism to Individualism. And we cannot do the reverse, which is to pre-empt the outcome of the research by saying something like, our goal is to prove the superiority of individualism over all other social systems. That is not neutral and will have no credibility.

If you guys want a South Africa school of something, I would suggest starting with a neutral goal like, "we provide research scholarships to Masters-level students in Economics, Law, Sociology or Political Science departments of top universities, funded by our private donors, specifically investigating the impacts of individualism on society".,

Sorry I fell asleep before getting to the end of that sentence. Yeah, right, research scholarships....." 

We then come up with specific topics for research, like finding the corellation between Individualims and human happiness or determining the optimal level of individual choice in situations where the individual lacks critical information i.e. choice of treatment where more than one treatment is an option and the patient is not a doctor... Wonderful! Start a thread.

Presumably the research will result in positive outcomes for individualism... and if it doesn't that's also good. A member benefit could be participation in research and early access to the results. That benefit already exists just by becoming involved here.

Just thinking out loud here. ;-)

Any and all responses appreciated. 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/DA43765C-5459-4308-A47B-3CB03CE7B6AD%40gmail.com.

Virus-free.www.avg.com

[Gabri Rigotti]

Hi Trevor, Stephen ...

My comments below are embedded in blue ...  😊

On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 9:48 AM Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:

In red below

Trevor Watkins .. cSISA
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 at 02:27, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I may make another suggestion of the founding kind... an organization should have a clear goal and it should typically be something more than uniting like-minded people.

The goal of just about every organisation in history is to bring together like-minded people.  Name an organisation whose goal is to disperse the already dispersed.

In fact, uniting likeminded people might be one of the worst possible goals, since;

1. Healthy debate is best done without an echo chamber i.e. with dislike minded people

Have you ever noticed how hard it is to get individuals to agree on anything? If I can encourage just a little common cause in this narrow community I will be happy.

    In general, the "like minded" who arrive in these forums tend to be the most "unlike minded" I have experienced ... as a compliment to you Stephen if you were the only one unlike minded here we can be confident there will be no echo chamber ... 😅

2. The goal should be some pursuit or measurable output... like, we provide funding for research into AERD, or we manufacture mobile phone cases, or we conduct research into very hard substances.

From "Notes on the Individualist manifesto" -  This manifesto attempts to unite the several strains of the freedom philosophy into one consistent document.  It aspires to be a statement that most seekers of liberty would be willing to accept and share.

3. The pursuit should not be ideological...Why?

... and I'm going to interrupt myself right there. I would recommend not doing what many others have done by pre-selecting an outcome and including it in their name, Huh? but rather tying the goal to something neutral, like doing no harm or searching for truth, not predetermined like supporting hammerhead sharks or being pro-leaded petrol or lobbying for fluoride in the water supply. Those can over time turn out to be bad or politically loaded or poorly labelled given passage of time.

Personally I am in search of truth and would support any research which advances humans toward the truth, even if that truth conflicts with things I now hold dear. Right now it looks like Individualism is closer to the truth than anything else we know, agreed but this is not a given... and the next wave of awokening might transform the meaning of Individualism to something we would never be caught dead supporting... like happened with liberalism and capitalism and now seemingly even libertarianism.

Individualism may also not be the ultimate truth. A millions years ago when LibDin was still being held at that Italian place up the stairs in Malanshof, I said something about the universal truth of free markets and Neil Emerick pointed out to me that my entire premise is based on the assumption that scarcity will persist... (with all respects to Neil Emerick, that is irrelevant, free markets are merely the economic manifestations of a system of ethics and morality for what we can increasingly arguably refer to as individualism given that the term libertarianism is fast corrupting ... that free markets "work" is just bonsella, but the "fact" that they "work" should not be their justification) but who is to say that when everyone has a Ferrari and a helicopter and a 3rd house in Margate and we can create food with the push of a button... well, then maybe equality or stability or some other outcome would seem more appropriate and appealing than efficiency. I almost coughed my rum & coke right onto my Mexican pizza... and totally changed my entire outlook on life. 

I have had a few such moments, and treasure them. Reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, the unknown ideal" turned me 180 degrees around from being a Wits socialist. Recently, your "How's it smelling" email changed my whole approach to communications in this realm. The idea of a South African school of individualism had the same effect. 

In the same vein as Trevor, I had just started doing a postgrad in what was then called a Masters in Town & Regional Planning, after a BSc. Land Surveying degree, when I experienced the Ayn Rand moment due to a fellow post grad student. It was not comfortable, especially as I naturally lean altruistic and my experiments in the "virtue of selfishness" mostly have not been successful 😅 ... but my DNA also leans maverick and deeply into "individualism" ... like I moved on from religio-Catholicism, moved on from some acceptance of the limited but still present coercive collectivism in classical liberalism as it was practiced, and moved on from Ayn Rand herself, in parallel giving my middle finger to doing professional articles or invoking "grandfather" clauses for being certified a "professional" in land surveying, urban and regional planning and eventually even in GIS (Geographic Information Systems) after I ironically had pioneered the South African digital census for marketing and advertising in 1990 for use in SAS systems, then led the team producing the digital census of six of the nine provinces for the1995 local elections and interfaced municipal treasury systems to maps (hence GIS) in 1996 ... even in the GIS where I sought refuge and integrated all my academic qualifications and lifelong passions, even there the interventionists and regulationists came to hound me ... 😂.

What if our goal is to fund research into the best possible way to arrange society and it turns out that the best possible way is something other than Individualism ? Yip. That's why I shifted from Libertarianism to Individualism. Agreed. And we cannot do the reverse, which is to pre-empt the outcome of the research by saying something like, our goal is to prove the superiority of individualism over all other social systems. That is not neutral and will have no credibility.

If you guys want a South Africa school of something, I would suggest starting with a neutral goal like, "we provide research scholarships to Masters-level students in Economics, Law, Sociology or Political Science departments of top universities, funded by our private donors, specifically investigating the impacts of individualism on society".,

Sorry I fell asleep before getting to the end of that sentence. Yeah, right, research scholarships....." 

We then come up with specific topics for research, like finding the corellation between Individualims and human happiness or determining the optimal level of individual choice in situations where the individual lacks critical information i.e. choice of treatment where more than one treatment is an option and the patient is not a doctor... Wonderful! Start a thread.

Presumably the research will result in positive outcomes for individualism... and if it doesn't that's also good. A member benefit could be participation in research and early access to the results. That benefit already exists just by becoming involved here. Agreed.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/CAN6K2LmbRquqa_MU8Og7aggN8zx98VWLXEhii7xznmVevqzL5w%40mail.gmail.com.

--

" It is not the water in the fields that brings true development, rather, it is water in the eyes, or compassion for fellow beings, that brings about real development. "

—Anna Hazare

[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

In purple below.

Op Ma. 12 Aug. 2024 om 01:48 het Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> geskryf:

In red below

Trevor Watkins .. cSISA
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 at 02:27, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I may make another suggestion of the founding kind... an organization should have a clear goal and it should typically be something more than uniting like-minded people.

The goal of just about every organisation in history is to bring together like-minded people.  Name an organisation whose goal is to disperse the already dispersed.

Almost every company out there brings together people who are not just not like-minded, but have directly opposing goals (employees want to get paid, employers want profits) and yet they are steered in a common direction (we print text-books or we sell hamburgers or whatever). It is not the goals of the individuals that matter, but the goals of the organization... and I see none here, at least not clearly. Being like-minded is entirely optional and sometimes detrimental... Mensa is a great example of like-minded people engaged almost exclusively in useless mental masturbation rather than doing what the organization's creator had in mind... he should have made that the goal, rather than expect it to sprout from simply bringing together like minded individuals.

In fact, uniting likeminded people might be one of the worst possible goals, since;

1. Healthy debate is best done without an echo chamber i.e. with dislike minded people

Have you ever noticed how hard it is to get individuals to agree on anything? If I can encourage just a little common cause in this narrow community I will be happy.

2. The goal should be some pursuit or measurable output... like, we provide funding for research into AERD, or we manufacture mobile phone cases, or we conduct research into very hard substances.

From "Notes on the Individualist manifesto" -  This manifesto attempts to unite the several strains of the freedom philosophy into one consistent document.  It aspires to be a statement that most seekers of liberty would be willing to accept and share.

3. The pursuit should not be ideological...Why?

Good question. An organization can certainly be ideological... but you said that you wanted a school of SA thought, so I assumed you want to be taken seriously in academic circles... which kind if excludes ideology. Now if your goal was simply to promote individualism and truth be damned, then that's fine, but that's not the subject line of this thread. 

... and I'm going to interrupt myself right there. I would recommend not doing what many others have done by pre-selecting an outcome and including it in their name, Huh? If you call yourself "Free Market Foundation" then you're going to end up promiting free markets, not remain eternally objective. If you call yourself the "Collective Individualists Coöperative" and then find those words don't gel, you have to re-brand, start from scratch or keep going despite all evidence. I would be hesitant to put "Individualism" right into the name. but rather tying the goal to something neutral, like doing no harm or searching for truth, not predetermined like supporting hammerhead sharks or being pro-leaded petrol or lobbying for fluoride in the water supply. Those can over time turn out to be bad or politically loaded or poorly labelled given passage of time.

Personally I am in search of truth and would support any research which advances humans toward the truth, even if that truth conflicts with things I now hold dear. Right now it looks like Individualism is closer to the truth than anything else we know, agreed but this is not a given... and the next wave of awokening might transform the meaning of Individualism to something we would never be caught dead supporting... like happened with liberalism and capitalism and now seemingly even libertarianism.

Individualism may also not be the ultimate truth. A millions years ago when LibDin was still being held at that Italian place up the stairs in Malanshof, I said something about the universal truth of free markets and Neil Emerick pointed out to me that my entire premise is based on the assumption that scarcity will persist... but who is to say that when everyone has a Ferrari and a helicopter and a 3rd house in Margate and we can create food with the push of a button... well, then maybe equality or stability or some other outcome would seem more appropriate and appealing than efficiency. I almost coughed my rum & coke right onto my Mexican pizza... and totally changed my entire outlook on life. 

I have had a few such moments, and treasure them. Reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism, the unknown ideal" turned me 180 degrees around from being a Wits socialist. Recently, your "How's it smelling" email changed my whole approach to communications in this realm. The idea of a South African school of individualism had the same effect. 

What if our goal is to fund research into the best possible way to arrange society and it turns out that the best possible way is something other than Individualism ? Yip. That's why I shifted from Libertarianism to Individualism. And we cannot do the reverse, which is to pre-empt the outcome of the research by saying something like, our goal is to prove the superiority of individualism over all other social systems. That is not neutral and will have no credibility.

If you guys want a South Africa school of something, I would suggest starting with a neutral goal like, "we provide research scholarships to Masters-level students in Economics, Law, Sociology or Political Science departments of top universities, funded by our private donors, specifically investigating the impacts of individualism on society".,

Sorry I fell asleep before getting to the end of that sentence. Yeah, right, research scholarships....." 

Well, maybe that's why we're not being invited to give lectures at prestigious institutions - we're just doing the fun bits and none of the boring hard work required to earn the title. I'll repeat "we" and "us".

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/CAN6K2LmbRquqa_MU8Og7aggN8zx98VWLXEhii7xznmVevqzL5w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

I'll take orange this time.

Op Ma. 12 Aug. 2024 om 04:55 het Gabri Rigotti <rigo...@gmail.com> geskryf:

Hi Trevor, Stephen ...

My comments below are embedded in blue ...  😊

On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 9:48 AM Trevor Watkins <bas...@gmail.com> wrote:

In red below

Trevor Watkins .. cSISA
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 at 02:27, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I may make another suggestion of the founding kind... an organization should have a clear goal and it should typically be something more than uniting like-minded people.

The goal of just about every organisation in history is to bring together like-minded people.  Name an organisation whose goal is to disperse the already dispersed.

In fact, uniting likeminded people might be one of the worst possible goals, since;

1. Healthy debate is best done without an echo chamber i.e. with dislike minded people

Have you ever noticed how hard it is to get individuals to agree on anything? If I can encourage just a little common cause in this narrow community I will be happy.

    In general, the "like minded" who arrive in these forums tend to be the most "unlike minded" I have experienced ... as a compliment to you Stephen if you were the only one unlike minded here we can be confident there will be no echo chamber ... 😅

Thanks - I appreciate that.

 

2. The goal should be some pursuit or measurable output... like, we provide funding for research into AERD, or we manufacture mobile phone cases, or we conduct research into very hard substances.

From "Notes on the Individualist manifesto" -  This manifesto attempts to unite the several strains of the freedom philosophy into one consistent document.  It aspires to be a statement that most seekers of liberty would be willing to accept and share.

3. The pursuit should not be ideological...Why?

... and I'm going to interrupt myself right there. I would recommend not doing what many others have done by pre-selecting an outcome and including it in their name, Huh? but rather tying the goal to something neutral, like doing no harm or searching for truth, not predetermined like supporting hammerhead sharks or being pro-leaded petrol or lobbying for fluoride in the water supply. Those can over time turn out to be bad or politically loaded or poorly labelled given passage of time.

Personally I am in search of truth and would support any research which advances humans toward the truth, even if that truth conflicts with things I now hold dear. Right now it looks like Individualism is closer to the truth than anything else we know, agreed but this is not a given... and the next wave of awokening might transform the meaning of Individualism to something we would never be caught dead supporting... like happened with liberalism and capitalism and now seemingly even libertarianism.

Individualism may also not be the ultimate truth. A millions years ago when LibDin was still being held at that Italian place up the stairs in Malanshof, I said something about the universal truth of free markets and Neil Emerick pointed out to me that my entire premise is based on the assumption that scarcity will persist... (with all respects to Neil Emerick, that is irrelevant, free markets are merely the economic manifestations of a system of ethics and morality for what we can increasingly arguably refer to as individualism given that the term libertarianism is fast corrupting ... that free markets "work" is just bonsella, but the "fact" that they "work" should not be their justification) I think markets precede all else, possibly even language and culture. I have seen animals trade with other animals, humans with animals, animals with humans and humans of completely different backgrounds with each other, without any understanding of culture, law or language. I have seen humans exchange with imaginary gods and make sacrifices to personified nature in exchange for good weather or sustenance. Even so, it is conceivable that some very clever AI could make better decisions for all of us than we can make for ourselves... or maybe we can collectively decide that markets don't need to work, given our priorities like wanting to evacuate the planet... or maybe we evolve into some other thing and that thing replaces humans and makes use of something other than markets... who knows, the point is that thinking in absolutes is bound to get you into trouble, because eventually everything is disproven, replaced or improved away. but who is to say that when everyone has a Ferrari and a helicopter and a 3rd house in Margate and we can create food with the push of a button... well, then maybe equality or stability or some other outcome would seem more appropriate and appealing than efficiency. I almost coughed my rum & coke right onto my Mexican pizza... and totally changed my entire outlook on life. 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/CAGXOEN0y6azLZ0McQK7vHopZAHvyBA%3DFuDLkFUBPnzF_A5nN-A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Gabri Rigotti]

Hi Stephen

As I said, there is no echo chamber here … 😊

Do we look for a source of ethics and morality within us, specifically in the nature of what we call ourselves as a species, human beings, or in something beyond us?

One example of the latter is a god of sorts … or a more “real world” phenomenon like a “market” as you muse ...

Either way I respectfully disagree with both … 😊 ... I will stay on the "within us" course ... unless that ever becomes a "flat earth" belief ...

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/CAMr06S56mxm6tY3AO%3DSsBEE%2Biq2EOQ4%2Bo4BeSnxxfzBsokOidg%40mail.gmail.com.