libertarians cannot be religious?

[Trevor Watkins]

Thats a long discussion, best done on googlegroups.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Mpiyakhe Dhlamini <mdt...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Att: Mpiyakhe Dhlamini: School of Individualism Prospects Update
To: Trevor Watkins <sa.indiv...@gmail.com>

Thank you for sending me this Trevor. I seem to remember that when you did your presentation on the harm-consent rule at libsem, you mentioned that you believe that libertarians cannot be religious?

Did I hear you correctly?

Kind Regards,

--

M.S.N Dhlamini

Trevor Watkins .. cSASI
bas...@gmail.com - 083 44 11 721 - www.individualist.one

[Gabri Rigotti]

Provided you never initiate the use of force against others or their properties you can worship if you wish any god or devil or whatever fantasy you prefer ... :)

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[Sid Nothard]

:Libertarians are supposed to be critical thinkers.

 

If one is going to adopt a religion, then it requires the abandonment of critical thought.

 

So how can Libertarianism and religion be accommodated in the same head?

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Libertarians can be anything they like - that is the first principle of libertarianism. Sure, you can argue that libertarians should be rational, but most of them are not - many of "us" believe in borders, property rights and the gold standard... all of which require the existence of Government and thus irrational w.r.t. Libertarian principles. Also, I am yet to see absolute proof that Libertarianism is an absolute, rational and universal truth... it might be, but I have not seen conclusive proof... which means we are all simply believers in freedom, as opposed to Professors of it. Besides, the typical murderer finds his own deeds entirely rational, otherwise he would not have done it. We also have people self-identifying as Libertarians who are self-confessed minarchists... and if you can believe in Government, then why not any other god ?

S.

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[Jim Powell]

In 2000 my wife Petro died. On 16^th December, while she was hospital, I was lying in bed in the complete dark in the deepest depression I have ever had. I have no idea how long the following experience happened, minutes or hours. Strange as it was, the felling of absolute calmness started at my feet. It washed up my body to the top of my head. Then a brilliant speck of light appeared. My eyes were closed. The light moved away, becoming dimmer and then went out. That was Petro saying goodbye. I believe in God

 

I have read the book The Power of Now by Eckhardt Tolle. All we have is the present. When I meet a person individually they are the most important person. As much as possible I have no thoughts of the past, or of the future. I find that this is the best way experience the essence of the person. Toole describes our inner self, past the mind as the great unmanifested. Other refer to the spirit or soul. Being in contact brings a calmness. It cannot be examined but felt such as “gut feel”

                                                                                                                                                                         

On 14^th April 2023 I lost my wife Shirley. Long-time friends Denise and Michael suggested that I go to a Quaker retreat over the weekend at the end of April. I knew nothing about Quakers. I trusted them and went along. On the last morning at the group breakfast, I made the simple statement “When I arrived I was in a deep dark hole. It is now not so deep and so dark, thank you”  

 

I am now a Quaker. It is a Christian based religion. Every Sunday I go along an sit for an hour with others and soak in the joint spiritual meditation. It is a “Flat” organisation with no hierarchy and no impositions. When Quakers was started it was when men wore hats in public. It was practice to remove your hat when you met someone perceived to be superior to you. The Quakers refused. I like that

 

What has this got to being a libertarian? Each step was taken with virtually no effort but a natural progression

 

I choose to live in Johannesburg as it is convenient. I am irritated by the government and particularly the government of Johannesburg. I might sell up to give me the freedom to go where I want. While I am here I am promoting a system to give voters control. More liberal than we have www.directdemocracy.org.za

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[Stephan Botes]

I grew up in a rigid Christian household and was ostracised by my family when I started applying my rational mind. I rejected Christianity and studied Objectivism and prided myself in being one who others described as John Galt. I then started studying Mormonism (and wrote a book called Mormon Memoirs I have yet to publish. It is rather amusing and will share the PDF with anyone who asks), studied the Quran (and wrote a book about it called Comment on the Quran which I hesitate to publish lest I become a Salmon Rusdie), then studied eastern mysticism and Buddhism. The latter resonated with me. Studying quantum physics caused me to examine my dogmatic defiance of anything that defied the laws of physics when I started reading as much as I could of Hinduism to find ancient knowledge of quantum physics in their writing. Once I had opened my mind I stated recalling many, many psychic experienced where I had told others about events before they even happened when I had no reason to even anticipate it might happen. And the more I allowed myself to go there, the more I realized I had suppressed those realization for most of my life, and once I accepted it and became aware of it the more frequently it happened. I have too many to relate here, by my Porsche Cayenne not being flattened by a huge tree that should never have fallen and under which I had parked the Porsche for more than a year that came down the night after I had seen it come down and decided not to leave the Porsche there, I have to thank for it.  The reality is that as a Libertarian for almost 30 years and an Objectivist for longer, I had to recognize that there are powers we cannot explain (yet) and defiance of them does not make them/it go away. What I have experienced since in parallel universes or other dimensions, call it want you want, I can never prove to anyone, but I know I had them and are having them, spontaneously, not induced by stimulants, so I completely understand believe Jim Powell had the experiences he had . 

Stephan Botes
071-026-5955
********
Never live for the sake of another, nor require any to live for the sake of
yours. Never grant the unearned, nor demand the unearned.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Over the course of several years I went from being absolutely sure that Capitalism is the True Way... to being pretty sure Libertarianism is The Way... to being kind of reluctantly Anarchist... to being a skeptical disciple of the Consent Axiom... to whatever this is... some kind of Individualist, I guess. The one thing that I have become more sure of as time has passed is that a) with every iteration I am getting closer to The Truth and b) The Truth is much further off than I thought.

We are all wrong. Not as wrong as the commies, but wrong. Noone has a monopoly on The Truth and as much as we like to think it, we have not found it yet. The more I learn, the less I seem to know for sure. In that lies the edge that Libertarianism has over other ideologies and beliefts - it asks very clearly and loudly, who the hell am I to say that you are wrong ? Who the hell are you to say that I am wrong ? Who the hell am I to say that I am right and you are not ? Who the hell can tell ?

That questioning of truth and our ability to know it, is what gets us closer to it than most others. Not at it, just closer to it. It would appear that the world works best when we each do what we think best and not impose our so-called truths on those around us... at least that's what the evidence now available to us suggests. I am skeptical about your religious experiences, but they are yours and I will respect your having them. I do not expect anything in return, because I might be wrong.

S.

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[SASI SA School of Individualism]

Like Stephan (Botes), I grew up in a religious family, went to a catholic school, and was considered 1 of 2 prime candidates for the priesthood.  Fortunately I had become skeptical by matric, and went on to be more or less hostile to religiosity.  But like Jim, I suffered the loss of my wife, and hunted for meaning after this event. I ended up writing a book about it (The Spark Realm, attached below), which was my personal view of the spiritual space. 

I really appreciate Jim and Stephan sharing their personal stories - it makes this all seem more human and less purely intellectual.

regards

Trevor

PS If your email system (commonly Outlook) inserts a "Re:" into the subject line, please remove it. It ends up starting a new and separate thread.

[Mpiyakhe Dhlamini]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I am not familiar with google groups so I hope I am using it correctly. 

I enjoyed reading every message, especially hearing of the personal experiences people have had. I asked the question because I did not feel like being part of a group where everyone thought I am stupid for believing in a God so I appreciate the diversity of thought. I was raised Christian, alongside ancestral worship practices. This hybrid is what most people in SA practice, Christianity is not actually the majority religion in this country as the statistics might have you believe.

I loved going to the local library and as a result I started reading Dawkins and others, I believe I became the first atheist at my high school (and helped to convert others to atheism). Many years would pass and one day I had what I can only describe as an encounter with God, which saved my life, perhaps one day I will share the full details. Many other miraculous things have since taken place in my life. 

From these experiences I have come to the conclusion that the only things I can be sure of are that God exists, Jesus Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead (there's a lot of evidence for this but that's a story for another day), I am therefore a libertarian because it is the political and legal philosophy that best aligns with my Christian faith. This means the quality of my libertarianism has changed, I first became libertarian while I was an atheist  and the motivation then was my frustration at being unemployed and seeing how my ability to negotiate employment contracts was limited by government (understanding this came as a result of exposure to Ron Paul through the 2008 and 2012 US Presidential campaigns).

Thank you for the responses, I will participate in other discussions when I can, as time allows.

Kind Regards,

[Leon Louw]

Libertarianism has no values -- zero, zitch -- apart from that nothing should be done to anyone or their property without consent.

There are obvious exceptions, and what constitutes consent is jurisprudential, not libertarian.

So, libertarians are free -- note FREE -- to be whatever they like: religious, communalistic, greedy, individualist, collectivistic, charitable, self-sacrificial, sedentary, beggar, perverse, loving, hateful, gentile, crude, drug addict, abstemious etc etc through the entire panoply of human conditions and values .... apart from just one thing, no coercion without consent. 

[Ron Weissenberg]

Thank you Leon!

 

“libertarians are free -- note FREE […....] apart from just one thing, no coercion without consent.” 

“what constitutes consent is jurisprudential, not libertarian…”

 

And there you have it.

 

Sadly, in my opinion, the only practical way to effect change in SA and other constitutional (or constituent tribal) democracies, is through successful structured/targeted litigation.

Regards

Ron

 

 

 

From: indivi...@googlegroups.com <indivi...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Leon Louw
Sent: Friday, 07 February 2025 15:15
To: indivi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IM: libertarians cannot be religious?

 

Libertarianism has no values -- zero, zitch -- apart from that nothing should be done to anyone or their property without consent.

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/CAOWz41Tea-M%3DTAsLMVKpgVKLMzNMmeCKnJtZERc-YXPuMXSTJQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Mike Hull]

And vile

 

From: indivi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:indivi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leon Louw
Sent: 07 February 2025 03:15 PM
To: indivi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IM: libertarians cannot be religious?

 

Libertarianism has no values -- zero, zitch -- apart from that nothing should be done to anyone or their property without consent.

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/CAOWz41Tea-M%3DTAsLMVKpgVKLMzNMmeCKnJtZERc-YXPuMXSTJQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Leon Louw]

Hi Ron.

Now and then there's good news.

All the evidence suggests that NHI will not happen (as conceived) and it might be due largely or partly to the policy work we did invldung (a) sitting in on and participating in every Portfolio Committee hearing for 2 weeks (to the point where we were considered members of the committee!) and (b) underating (at great cost and effort) the first and (to date) only serious costing exercise.

We shifted the paradigm from numbers floating around of a few hundred billion to over one tillion. As soon as R1tr became the number, the idea of "full" implementation fell away.

Sometimes -- albeit rarely -- policy work works.

Litigation has been effective, and might continue to be. I have been isntrumental to about 8 ConCourt cases, all won.

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/AS8PR08MB6822C5A3E68BA8727D791789C0F12%40AS8PR08MB6822.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com.