Elaeodendron glaucum

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J.M. Garg

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Nov 15, 2009, 10:41:29 AM11/15/09
to indiantreepix, Robert, satish phadke, Neil Soares
This one is for Dr. Archer.
Link from Forest Flora of A.P.:
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J.M.Garg (jmg...@gmail.com)
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Elaeodendron glaucum I2 IMG_3566.jpg
Elaeodendron glaucum I IMG_3566.jpg
Elaeodendron glaucum I IMG_3570.jpg
Elaeodendron glaucum I IMG_3590.jpg
Elaeodendron glaucum I IMG_3592.jpg
Elaeodendron glaucum I IMG_3593.jpg
Elaeodendron glaucum I IMG_3595.jpg

Satish Phadke

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Nov 15, 2009, 12:29:37 PM11/15/09
to J.M. Garg, indiantreepix, Robert, Neil Soares
Affirmative.
Certainly a great specimen of
Elaeodendron glaucum
from Celastraceae family !
Very nice flowers.
Serrated margins of the leaves also seen
Satish Phadke

2009/11/15 J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Vijayasankar Raman

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Nov 15, 2009, 11:53:04 PM11/15/09
to Satish Phadke, J.M. Garg, indiantreepix, Robert, Neil Soares
Dear Garg ji & Satish ji,

Sorry to differ, I don't think it is Elaeodendron (= Cassine) glaucum. For me it looks like a species of Gymnosporia (= Maytenus). 

Let's wait for experts comments.

--
With regards

R. Vijayasankar
FRLHT, Bangalore

J.M. Garg

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Nov 16, 2009, 12:50:23 AM11/16/09
to Vijayasankar Raman, Satish Phadke, indiantreepix, Robert, Neil Soares, r.ar...@sanbi.org.za, oikos for ecological services
Thanks, Vijayasankar ji,
With experts like you (we are privileged), mistakes of a layman like me can't go unnoticed.
 
This appears to be Maytenus senegalensis as per earlier Indiantreepix thread:

& Forest Flora of A.P.:
Pl. confirm.
 
2009/11/16 Vijayasankar Raman <vijay.b...@gmail.com>

Satish Phadke

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Nov 16, 2009, 10:32:15 AM11/16/09
to Vijayasankar Raman, J.M. Garg, indiantreepix, Robert, Neil Soares
Dear Vijay ji and Garg ji.
Both the plants are from family Celastraceae so the flowers are bound to be similar looking.
Were the branches terminating into flower and leaf bearing spines?
I may be wrong and open for discussion. I still feel it to be Elaeodendron glaucum.
The points in its favour.
The picture appears to be of a small tree rather than a shrub. The calyx lobes are deeply divided. We might get some opinions.....
Regards
Satish
Attaching some more pictures of what I believe to be Elaeodendron glaucum

2009/11/16 Vijayasankar Raman <vijay.b...@gmail.com>
DSCN2862s.jpg
DSCN2894s.jpg

J.M. Garg

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Nov 16, 2009, 10:47:59 AM11/16/09
to Satish Phadke, Vijayasankar Raman, indiantreepix, Robert, Neil Soares
Hi, Satish ji,
What possibly I ignored most in the first instance was the white colour of my plant compared to the light green of the petals of Elaeodendron glaucum, which were also thinner compared to those of Elaeodendron glaucum.

2009/11/16 Satish Phadke <phadke...@gmail.com>

J.M. Garg

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Nov 16, 2009, 11:33:40 AM11/16/09
to Satish Phadke, Vijayasankar Raman, indiantreepix, Robert, Neil Soares, oikos for ecological services
Based on Satish ji's observation, I again revisited all the threads on Maytenus senegalensis in Indiantreepix database.
My further identification as Maytenus senegalensis based on the following thread is not correct (as the identification in the thread itself is now doubtful as there are no spines as also in my post):
I am also ruling out Celastrus paniculata as it's a woody climber as per link of Forest Flora of A.P.:

These are the only species of Maytenus/  Celastrus/  Gymnosporia mentioned in Forest Flora of A.P.

May Dr. Archer sort out the things now.

2009/11/16 J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Neil Soares

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Nov 16, 2009, 12:17:17 PM11/16/09
to Satish Phadke, J.M. Garg, Vijayasankar Raman, indiantreepix, Robert, oikos for ecological services
Hi Mr.Garg & Satish,
  Sorry to come in so late. Was at a Marine Bio-diversity Camp in the Gulf of Kutch.
It is definitely not Cassine glauca [Elaeodendron glaucum]. It is a Meytenus sp.- most likely M.senegalensis.
                  Regards,
                    Neil.

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J.M. Garg

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Nov 16, 2009, 11:45:43 PM11/16/09
to Neil Soares, Satish Phadke, Vijayasankar Raman, indiantreepix, Robert, oikos for ecological services
Hi, Neil ji,
What would you like to say of no spines seen on the branches/ tree etc. in my plant?

2009/11/16 Neil Soares <drneil...@yahoo.com>

Neil Soares

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Nov 17, 2009, 12:01:24 AM11/17/09
to J.M. Garg, Satish Phadke, Vijayasankar Raman, indiantreepix, Robert, oikos for ecological services
Hi Mr.Garg,
  On some smaller shrubs spines are not always present. You have consider the larger picture.
                      Regards,
                        Neil.

J.M. Garg

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Nov 17, 2009, 12:05:33 AM11/17/09
to Neil Soares, Satish Phadke, Vijayasankar Raman, indiantreepix, Robert, oikos for ecological services
Hi, Neil ji,
I check all my original pictures (around 12) of two different trees, one of them a large one. I didn't get any hint of spines in these.
2009/11/17 Neil Soares <drneil...@yahoo.com>

J.M. Garg

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Nov 17, 2009, 2:39:05 AM11/17/09
to Neil Soares, Satish Phadke, Vijayasankar Raman, indiantreepix, Robert, oikos for ecological services
Reply from Dr. Archer;
"Dear Garg, ji and everybody
 
Coming back with computer problems… I sent the pictures to Marie Jordaan, who is currently revising the genus Gymnosporia. She feels the name Gymnosporia montana should be applied to these.  It is often that thorns are absent from tree.
 
As we are currently using Gymnosporia senegalensis is a African species that occur up to Pakistan and possibly in India. The other species of Gymnosporia occurring in Southern India and Sri Lanka is Gymnosporia emarginata, a species that extend to Australia.
 
Thank you very much, Robert
 
Robert H. Archer
COM specialist
Scientist National Biodiversity Institute"

2009/11/17 J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Robert H. Archer

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Nov 17, 2009, 5:54:01 AM11/17/09
to Satish Phadke, Vijayasankar Raman, J.M. Garg, indiantreepix, Neil Soares

Dear Satish ji

 

These photos are from Elaeodendron. In Elaeodendron the ovary and disk are continuous and with the stamens arising from the top of the disk, never from the outside (much like Salacia etc.). You can see that clearly from the flower in front.  In Gymnosporia the disk is separate and the stamens are from outside the disk.

 

With best wishes, Robert

 

Robert H. Archer

COM specialist

Scientist National Biodiversity Institute

 



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Satish Phadke

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Nov 17, 2009, 10:46:52 AM11/17/09
to J.M. Garg, indiantreepix, Robert, Neil Soares
In continuation with this interesting thread..............
I again visited the area and could find some of these Maytenus senegalensis shrubs in full bloom.On rethinking the plant posted by Mr Garg appears to be Maytenus(Gymnosporia) senegalensis only. The pictures I posted in the thread are of Elaeodendron glaucum plant which is also near these plants.
Attaching new pictures of Maytenus senegalensis flowers clicked 2 hrs back.
The features I observed from both.
Maytenus senegalensis : Inflorescences too many....almost full plant in most. Thorny branches but not always. Leaves comparatively smaller. Size of the plant in my observation not more than 10 feet.
Elaeodendron glaucum : Inflorescence occasional at one time(Total 3 big sized were present on full plant. Leaves comparatively larger and often folded to some extent on the midvein. Size of the plant 15 feet or more.
Robert ji has already given the very distinct differentiating feature.
Will try to observe the fruits which are characteristic in both.
Regards
Dr Phadke Satish
2009/11/15 J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Maytenus senegalensis4.jpg
Maytenus senegalensis5.jpg
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